Dual Transitions: Military-To-Civilian Life & Transitional History

Today, I sit down with Paul Whitten to talk about military service, combat arms culture, and what life looks like after taking the uniform off. Mr. Whitten shares why he joined the Army, his role as a Forward Observer, and how combat arms training shaped his ability to handle pressure, criticism, and adversity. We discuss the realities of preparing for large-scale warfare while fighting counterinsurgency conflicts, and how many service members never actually perform the job they trained for once deployed. 

We also dive into Mr. Whitten’s academic background as a historian, including his studies at The Citadel and his focus on transitional governments, particularly the collapse of the Soviet Union and its aftermath. Our conversation explores how historical literacy, real-world experience, and critical thinking intersect, especially when it comes to modern politics, power transitions, and the ongoing debates surrounding Civil War monuments and historical narratives in the United States. 

Later in the episode, we shift to life after the Army and how Mr. Whitten combined lessons from military service, the UK Parliamentary Fellowship, the Peace Corps, and corporate leadership to build Nashville Adventures. He explains how the company helps people experience Nashville through history, culture, and entertainment, while also creating meaningful civilian purpose after service.

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we are gonna go on an adventure, a Nashville Adventure with Mr. Paul Whitten. We are here to talk about military service and just enjoying the civilian life afterward and what we can do to help others enjoy life, especially go around a place they've never been to or just get to know better a place they thought they knew.

So, Mr. Whitten, great to have you here. And could you give a little introduction, especially starting with when you joined and why you joined the military? Yeah, man. Good to be here, brother. So I got in the army about six years after nine 11. So, as you know, and as I know, and as most people know, the army and the military is based on six year contracts.

So I got in after 2001 six years after that. So when I got in, the standards were pretty low. So when I could get in, if you could like count the 10, do this, and you had a, you could pass the meps booty hole check you were getting in. So I got in when the standards were pretty low. And what that means is, unlike your world, the nookie world, which, you know, everyone there is get their lunch money taken.

Most of the time I was surrounded by people who could barely read sometimes. But I got in oh seven. The reason why I came in is not gonna lie to you. I, I needed a, needed a job, needed to go anywhere. Like many vets, I did not become super patriotic until I was in the service. I was the guy who was like, free college, let's go.

That was me. Eventually I became a very patriotic person, but that only developed in that time, to be honest with you, I grew up broke. Man Army was a good way to get money real quick. And those sign-on bonuses, man, those were nice. They weren't as nice as your newie bonuses, but they were, they were pretty nice in the army for sure.

And so what were you doing in the Army during all that time? I enlisted as a Ford Observer. Ford Observer is a infantry asset that utilizes indirect fire assets, mortars, artillery you name it, close air support in conjunction with the J tac to kill the enemy efficiently and with maximum impact.

So basically in a combat situation as if we were finding the Russians you would have back in like core versus core brigade versus brigade level combat I would be attached to an infantry company and I would probably I'd at Alpha Bravo Charlie headquarters and a headquarters company, but loaned out and we would be, I'd be utilizing my vision at an observation point to call for fire on the enemy utilizing indirect fire assets.

And I haven't said that in a decade, but that's, that's what I did. Yeah, right. I've been out for a while, brother, and that sounds like if I'm tracking correctly, one of the jobs that doesn't transition quite well into the civilian world. You know, I've had people on this show who. Their job was to shoot down planes with like a rocket launcher.

He is like, I got out and there was no jobs, especially he was a veteran who got out in like 1980 right before all the mm-hmm. Security beef ups and everything. So how, I mean, what kind of skillset comes with that, that is transferable, if at all? Great question. Who? I'm gonna be real honest with you what I got out of that especially when I later, I spent some time in Charleston.

I'm a Citadel graduate, so I spent some time in Charleston myself, just like you did. But that was after I got in the Army. I will tell you the thing I got out of it is I can take criticism and feedback and any manner that anyone can deliver it, I've been yelled at. I had to one of my favorite stories.

I was not a bad soldier by any metric. I, I was a very good soldier. But I still had to carry a plant around me to replace the oxygen I was wasting. When I first got in, I had to carry a big clock When I was late one time, like flavor flave, if anyone asked what time it was, I had to say it that was the life back in that time, especially as a Joe.

Yeah. And now that's haze. You can't do that. Yeah. And that's, that's unfortunate. But you know, the, what you get out of that right, is you get an ability to thrive in challenging environments. And the reality of at least combat arms in the army during those wars is theoretically you had to kill the enemy, dust yourself off and continue the mission, right?

And so you had to have a certain level of thick skin. And that thick skin has helped me throughout my life. But in terms of skills, technical skills I am great on the radio, but I have not been on a radio since I was in the Army. Right. I was, there was, no one is better in on the radios than generally Ford observers.

But yeah, the only thing I got out of it was grit, to be honest with you brother. Mm-hmm. Take a hit and keep going. And, you know, I gotta say, so you talk about killing the enemy something said very, very casually, but was there a, and you talk about the thick skin. Was there any kind of guilt or conflict within about that, knowing that where you're.

Calling in these strikes that there are people or you, you were like, Hey, we have a mission. These people did X, Y, Z, we're here to do A, B, C. Oh. That's what's unique about combat arms, at least in the Army. So in in the Army, you choose your MOS before you go to meps. Generally that is not necessarily true for many of the other branches.

So anyone who signs up to be a Ford observer wants to do Ford Observer stuff, and I'm older now. But when I was younger, I wanted to do that there, you know, it's, I wanted to do that job. I remember when I, when I was in the Army, I, I dated this girl who was a kindergarten teacher, and I remember looking at her thinking.

Why the hell would you ever want to be a kindergarten teacher? And she would look at me like, why the hell would you ever wanna do that job in the army? Right, right. When I was 18, that's all I wanted to do. I wanted to be the guy that movies were made out of. I wanted to do the cool guy stuff. And when you're training as a Ford Observer, your basically your job is to point somewhere and it explodes.

It's a pretty cool job when you're 18. I did not have the emotional maturity to understand what death meant and what killing was. And that is the gift of being so young and dumb. You don't know that stuff. You think you do, but you don't. And I was so young and stupid and I thank God that I was, I probably would have existential crisis if I had to do that now.

But when you're young and dumb, you don't think about that stuff. It was another great adventure and to a degree. It's easier to be attached because you're not seeing the people being killed compared if you were out there, right, on the, the front lines. Not that you weren't in danger, obviously you're the kind of people that they want to take down.

The enemy wants to take down. You know, I've had some artillery and mortar guys on the show who are like, Hey, we were the first in target because they take us down. That saves them a lot of casualties. But you know, to the degree to degree, you're not seeing that. And you know, there's a lot of media coverage that certainly true in Vietnam, either.

That was certainly true in Vietnam. You had those big cords sticking, you know, big antenna for those radios. That is not necessarily, at least in my time, accurate nowadays. Radios are small. I grew up in the Mbit Army for anyone. Army vets know what an M bidder is. It's the main radio system that followed cigars.

That thing was like this big, and we all had one. It was connected on a mic that was on your, no one could really differentiate Ford observers from anyone else in the infantry. But generally in my time, Ford observers didn't do Ford Observer stuff. It's really unfortunate outside your rangers and things like that, they did that kind of stuff.

If you were combat arms in the Army and you went to any of these wars that we all went to, you were basically grunt infantry. Nothing against the Taliban, but the Taliban didn't have a Russian style military that we were built to defeat for the last 40 years. This was a counterinsurgency operation.

So when we were in Afghanistan, for example, when I was in Afghanistan, for example, I didn't call for fire at all, didn't do it once. And I was wanting to, I was like, let's do this. I want to be able to say, I've done this. I've trained for this. This is my old spent years of my life wanting to kill the enemy in this manner.

But that never happened. Instead, I was the electronic warfare guy on a fob and we did a lot of stuff. I did a lot of dismount patrols, which is basic 1 0 1 infantry stuff. A lot of stuff like that. A lot of going in the community, a lot of, you know, crazy little, you know, trips and humvees and circles.

But really my time, Ford observers, Cav Scouts, tankers, canon Cockers, they were not doing their jobs overseas. And that's unfortunate, but that's just the reality of that enemy at that time. I understand what you're saying. But you know, as disappointing as it was for people who wanted to actually, you know, go out there and, and see the action.

Mm-hmm. So much better for us that we were over-prepared rather than under-prepared. You know? And I think that is one of the thing, I've had a lot of people on my show in the same position as you where they joined to be a certain rate or MOS as they call it, you know, other branches. And it, they, they got, it got disbanded once they graduated.

They said, actually, we changed weapon types and we no longer have those types of missiles. So now you're gonna be this or that, or, you know, people will join and never see action. And a lot of, I, I least I'll speak for myself and other nuclear operators, I know we felt so purposeless and kind of. Forward and like seeking to be out there in the field because, you know, we were sitting here every day and yes, we're critical and vital to national security and international security, but we just want to see action.

And interestingly enough, all the guys from the field we would talk to would say we'd rather be nuclear operators chilling in the air conditioned room doing, and mostly not air conditioned. It's very hot down there, you know, doing what you're doing. So it's always a, a grass is greener. Right. I'm sure there's forward observers Yeah.

Who did their job who were like, Hey, I wish I never had to, you know, call in that hit. So it's, it is one of those things, but I definitely felt like I should have joined the Army or Marines instead of the Navy. 'cause I, I dunno, that feeling of, like you said, like wanting to get out there, but there's also that weighing morality on my conscious.

That being said, I just wanna know if, if it, it had gone that way for you. What was it looking like day to day? If you could share that with us. So were you, how far were you observing away from? So are you looking at a battle site? Oh, and I, Hmm, oh, so as a Ford observer, like, or so as a Ford observer there, I'll give you three different scenarios.

They're often used. And then I love to hear about the nuke stuff for a bit, but for sure. But, so let's go with the cliche. The Russians invaded the folding gap over Germany. The 82nd airbornes got a hold 'em 48 hours while the rest of NATO mobilizes. So a Ford observer in that capacity would be at an op, a set observation point as a droll of we of basically intel observation, seeing what the enemy is doing, locking in coordinates and firing artillery at those positions.

The way artillery works is artillery men are away from the things they blow up. And so you require someone on an observation point to observe that send in either grid points, the Army uses grids, Navy uses coordinates but send over grid points over as well as other variables in the equation. You take in the, the humidity of the air.

I mean, that's how like crazy this gets, and you're basically snipers for artillery. Except for you don't have this big awesome rifle. You just have this radio and a map so it's not as sexy. But then you fire that munition as a Ford observer. You can request the munition type, you can do all these different adjustments to that call for fire.

Destroy that enemy. If you work with a joint tactical air controller, you can do type two or type three cas, which is a whole different thing. But generally that's the way it looks like in that capacity. The other capacity is a quick response where you're like, oh shit, what's going on? Let's, we need to do stuff now.

And that's when you do a hasty call for fire mission. And when you do that, the major consideration you have to account for is what's called danger close. That is the proximity of the munition and that explosion and right. For example, for regular artillery, it's 600 meters. So anything within under six, within 600 meters is danger close.

Other munitions have different danger close distances, whether that be one 20 mortars. Even down in the seventies when we had, nuclear artillery, which did exist at one time, you know, that had its own danger close methodology. And that is kind of impromptu and quick, that requires more work on what's called the FDC, the fire and direction center, where you have the, the super artillery nerds look over things in real time and bless something before it shoots out of the canon.

Third thing is you're, you know, basically over glorified mortar boy, and you're with a mortar team and an infantry unit and mortars are not, are like right in between line of sight, which is what a rifle is. And artillery, which is, you know, there's no observation there. So really sometimes you'll be with the mortars as they fire coordinating that fire.

Sometimes very, very close, especially with your, you know, your smaller mortars. Right? Yeah. There you go. Did you ever have. Hopefully this doesn't sound silly. Were you ever at some point like using a telescope to look at the area that you're calling in in conjunction with the knife or, oh, of course.

Course of course. Oh yeah. You got some fancy tech. Yeah. You got things that with originally what you're looking for is the tech we would use and keep in mind, this is my time, right? You see the drone drones nowadays? I imagine so, but yeah, it's, so you would get basically be able to tell the difference and this technology was so advanced that you can buy it whenever you go to the golf course.

'cause whenever you need to know the different distance that you need to shoot your golf ball at, you can kind of do that in real time with that distance. That sounds about right. And that's what the, that's what the Army had. So what was your rate in the Navy brother and where you nuke or were you were you a Navy ship or were you a Navy submarine?

Electricians make nuclear operators, so you go through, the schooling has three parts two regular style schooling buildings, and then you go on a submarine for training for six months and then you go to wherever you're stationed. In my case, that was an aircraft carrier. Yeah. Huh. So you spent some tongue of time in Charleston.

You spent like a year and a half there, or two years there? Just about, actually got a long training. I was trying to they had a program where you could go to college and become an officer, like State 21 and other stuff. Oh yeah. There was a ton of them there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, 'cause I was gonna go, I was gonna try to go to the Citadel, as you mentioned earlier.

But I had gone on leave to surprise my younger sister for her birthday and missed some of the paperwork deadlines because I, you know, I didn't know about it until after I got back. And so that stunk. But, you know, I could have gone in one of those big citadel rings that you could, you know, knock someone out with.

Oh yeah. I You got one right now. Okay. They're, they're right now. I'm, oh yeah, they're gdy as hell. You gotta compensate. That's kind of like the compensation ring. But yeah, it's a, yeah, the T 20 ones don't get the cadet ring. But I will tell you, they lived a dream. But the problem is, is the SDA 21 guys, if they go through the nuclear pathway, have to take the nerd majors.

And that is no joke that is specifically restricted to that kind of stuff. So Yeah. And that's a five year program that really they want you to do in three. Right. And that is, that is a pain in the ass, especially if you do that, that e the electrical engineering life and that CE life. 'cause you gotta do that then the naval ROTC components.

And as a generally like a Navy's kind of weird with NCO ships and stuff like that, like rank and stuff. But you gotta help the ROTC people teach these dumbass cadets. So it's, it's, that's another part-time job you gotta do. It's a pain. But that that oh one pay is pretty nice though, brother. I ain't gonna, ain't gonna lie to you.

It's kind of worth it. Right. I gotta circle back real quick. When you went to the Citadel, remind me, was that during the military or afterward? That was technically during my man. Okay. So what did you go for in terms of major in education? I was a history major because the army don't care about what I had to major in.

And so I did the I did history and had a blast doing that. And after that I got out of the army Every year. I was in the army was the year I was getting out, but the Army would dangle some cool shit in front of me that I just thought was, oh, I'll stay a little bit longer, I'll do this, I'll go to the Citadel, I'll do that.

Right. And after my time at the Citadel I left outta the Army like pretty quickly after that. And when I got outta the Army, I went over and went to the UK for a year. Had a great time in the United Kingdom and did that. I was a parliamentary fellow over there. And after that I went complete hippie because the army got me all kind of crazy.

And so I did three years in the Peace Corps and I had the world's best time in the Republic of Armenia. As someone who's got all this like. Stuff, religious stuff on your background. I will tell you, that's the first Christian nation and I got to go see some cool places over there and I had a great time.

So go back. So how many years total did you end up serving? Seven. Seven, okay. And so was there any, I know you talked about all the, you know, the, the shiny object syndrome and all that, but you were approaching the halfway point. Did that thought cross your mind at all? Like, Hey, seven years is just three years away from 10 and 10 years.

Just 10 years away from 20. Which saying it like that, hell, it sounds like a lot. Hell no. I was ready to go buddy. I was, you could see smoke coming outta my shoes. I'll tell you the moment I realized I was done. I'll tell you the exact moment. I stopped. I was always the funny guy. That's really what led to my, and I was blessed with being an NCO way too young.

I was blessed with these opportunities just because I was always steadfast, I was funny. I could do my job, I could run like a fucking gazelle. So I was in this really kind of unique spot where everything the army wanted, I was now in the Navy. That probably wouldn't have been appreciated, especially in the nuke world, but in combat arms in the Army, that was, that was what they wanted, right?

But I tell you, I got tired of it. The Citadel was, I was a cadet at the Citadel. I was not an STA 21, I was a full cadet at Citadel. So I was really done with the shenanigans. I had class and I was already went to a war. So I was like, why am I doing this? This is the one thing I wanted to do. I did it.

I, I am now a combat veteran. Yee ha there's nothing left for me to prove. And I'm really tired of waking up at five in the morning like this. This shit's gotta stop. That's very fair. So. I was done, brother. I did my time, got my patch. I can say for the rest of my life, I'm a combat veteran. I do not I don't think there's any difference.

If I could have said it, I was a four time combat veteran. I don't think that would've mattered to me. At least I did my time, did my service, got my high fives bounced. All right. And then as far as that history degree, was it like a specific kind, like was it in like a specific time period of history or specific culture of history?

Yeah. Yeah, man. So I on American history, I focus on the seven year war, but I really, and I was also a political science major as well, but major, it was history but I really fell in love with transitional studies and I just thought that was the coolest thing ever. Now you say that nowadays. And that's, you know, people think a different thing when in transitional studies.

I'm talking about the Soviet Union to the Russian Federation and this transition of governance that was just fascinating and that part of the reason what brought me to Armenia. 'cause Armenia was a former Soviet Republic part of that USSR part of that Soviet Union that turned into Russian Federation and all these satellite states became quasi independent.

And I just found that to be such a fascinating subject. And I wanted to, I had delusions of grandeur getting a PhD in this subject and making this my life's focus. And I did three years in Republic Romania after playing the politic games as a UK parliamentary fellow and. Fell in love with that Right.

At the Citadel. We had a professor who was a great guy, great guy who was an expert on that, and just found that class and him to be a cool dude. Yeah. You speak about the transition of governments and power in your studies of history. Mm-hmm. And I think if more people were educated to that degree, we could understand the political climates of the modern society better, because a lot of people don't see a lot of so many people as, and I'm, I'm no politician and I so don't think I'm a genius, but what I have seen and observed is so many people don't understand what the next steps are going to be.

So many people are focused on what's happening right now, and they don't see why it's bad or good. If government A, B, C does X, Y, z because they don't know the historical patterns or possibilities that we've seen when it comes to terms of power, transitions of government, when a certain party whether that's political, economic or whatever, may be takes over.

Would you agree with based on your study of transitional history, has that really informed your political knowledge? Excuse me. The lights went out. Did the power go off in this building? There it goes. We're back. That was weird. So, yeah. Government didn't like what we were saying. Yeah, no kidding.

They dim the lights on that I will tell you, I. Easy answer to that is yes. The more complex answer I would say is that even if you have this magic crystal ball be able to, for tell what's gonna happen in future events, the likelihood of someone's ability to change that is quite limited. Here's my kind of hot take.

The whole thing of, you know, history does repeat itself, it rhymes, which is said 3000 gazillion times is a cop out to saying like, I wanna sound smart, but I don't actually know how this is gonna work. Mm-hmm. The reality of history, at least in my understanding of it as a historian who makes a living doing this, is that the being more worldly, and I mean that being worldly, going, traveling, going to different places, getting out of your eco cha echo chamber, that is the cancer to our current society, as well as knowing a basic understanding of history.

And then the most important variable is being able to say. What is likely to occur? What are different people going to think about this and how do I control this narrative and or adjust things in a manner that's gonna be advantageous to what I want to have occur? If, to be honest with you, you got people who are giant history nerds who are not worldly.

You got worldly people who aren't capable of having that existential thought process of the balance. Having all three is not something man is gifted universally with, and that's just my hot take. You got a lot of, and I'll give you an example of this. What I see in real time, I got a lot of history nerds, super professors who've got PhDs and know what they're talking about.

The ability to apply that history into something that is going to possibly happen in the future is a skill they're reluctant and or incapable of doing oftentimes. Mm. So if you add, if you ever, and I love doing, if you ever had a meeting or something with a, with a PhD who is an expert on 1980s, 1970s, 1920s, Ukraine.

And say, what do you feel like is going to happen? You'll get a very elongated answer, but the reality is it's not gonna have a lot of meat to it sometimes. And when you can recognize that, just know that maybe that person is gifted in this one subject, this one particular skill, but maybe not the others.

So I agree. That's my hot tech brother. No, a hundred percent. You know, working in the faith world, right? I know people who have so much scriptural knowledge, but they don't implement it into their lives or live it out, or they could give you really good answers but not be able to help you do it, right?

So I, I think that goes for anything, right? And knowledge without wisdom, you know, without the implementation is, is kind of useless to a degree. And then just, it is a, a related topic that's on my mind because of where I live. I live in a state that has a lot of history pertaining to the civil wars. I live in Georgia, so there's a lot of Civil war history.

Georgia. There you go. Where are you at in Georgia, brother? You in Savannah. You in hot Atlanta? You're in, you're diet coach Charleston. Well, I think I had to say, I like you can tell anyone from Savannah that they'd be like, no, no, no. But that's blasphemy. I will caveat it with, when I was in Charleston, I was not of drinking age and I was not an underage drinker.

Right. So there wasn't as much to do. Not that I really go out to, to bars and stuff. I'll say they both have different aspects to them and different setup to them. I like both. I personally think I like Savannah better, but it's been a long time since I went to Charleston and actually explored well, Savannah's great.

They're not my main, they're not what I would've picked to go to either way, you know? Yeah. But all that to say Savannah has been dealing with an issue. It seems to have died down now, but. About two years ago, we had a lot of people trying to tear down all the statues, grave sites, all that stuff.

That, and that was across the America, not just Savannah, but Savannah. I actually saw it in person. These protests and these things. What is your opinion on the destruction of history as someone who is a historian and, and you know, loves to study this stuff? We've got people trying to erase history for the sake of people's emotions, and it's like, are people's emotions more valuable than historical evidence and knowledge?

You know, I know my answer. All right. I'm curious, your take. And I, and judging by the manner in which you said it, I can guess your answer as well. I'll give you my hot take on this. I would not use the term destruction of history. History is always gonna be there. People are always gonna study it, especially civil war shit.

People love that stuff. In a perfect world, here's how I would do it. I would use those statues, especially glorifying Confederate leaders as a way of kind of. Analysis of what 1920s Southern cause perception was. The reality is the majority of these statues were not implemented in 18 66, 18 67, 18 68.

They were brought in by the Daughters of the Confederacy in the earliest 20th century to enforce the Southern cause narrative. I have some serious beef with the Southern cause narrative and as does almost everyone that's, you know, reality. This was not a war about states' rights other than the fact that it was about states' rights to own slavery.

That's what that was. The Southern cause narrative was less focused on the aspect of slavery, more on the aspect of state's rights. That's a fundamentally flawed argument. However, those statues themselves are indeed historic cult. They do tell us what the narrative of conversations were in the earlier 20th century, and I would argue that the Civil War is incredibly unique because everyone loves to say, and.

To the victor comes as spoils. You know, the, the winner defines the narrative. Well, the Civil War, arguably, that's the one exception the South define the narrative. After they lost, after Lee surrendered to Grant Abbas courthouse, there was a whole false narrative over this. The glorification of Lee the genius of Nathan Bedford Forest.

All these things, I will tell you, I, I will give a hot take. I will say that Grant arguably was a better commander than Lee, and I would say Thomas was even a better commander than Grant. That's again, my historical hot take. But I do think these statues serve a purpose and, and a perfect world.

You would keep those statues there, but ensure there is a narrative of what those statues represent. If you got Robert E. Lee looking, looking all sexy on his horse, which I believe was called Whisper, if I remember right, sexy on his horse, looking good in his gray uniform. And that was made in 1926 by the daughters and Confederacy to enforce that Southern cause narrative.

There needs to be plaques going over that the National Park Service needs to make that part of their curriculum to explain not just what happened in 18 63, 18 64, but also what happened in 19 23, 19 24, and how that narrative controlled politics all the way to the Dixiecrat movement led by Strom Thurman and these other folks all the way in the fifties and sixties, post Brown verse Board of Education.

And I think that narrative is lost when you remove it. However, this is my last little caveat, 'cause I imagine you're gonna disagree with me on this, is at the same time the South lost and they fought a war against the United States Army. I was in the United States Army. They fought a war against the military I was in.

I do believe that there is a place for the broader explanation of the conflict of the Civil War. The place the Southern calls had in that. At the same time, it really pisses people off. National Park Service is a tax funded organization. If half the people don't like it, and because of, I would argue, maybe a legitimate thing in the perfect world, you would have those signs explaining its broader narrative and the importance of understanding the Southern cause narrative and its impact on 20th century politics.

However, the reality is that's really hard to do well. So if I had to choose keeping it and forcing the historical aspect of that with a narrative that explains the broader scope of this in a 1920s, 1930s perspective with the Southern cause movement or getting rid of it, number two is what I want to be number one.

The second one is remove it. The third one is keep it un molested. So that's my hot take. And there you go. You're more than welcome to disagree with me on it. I'm right though, but you're more than welcome to disagree with me on it. My thing is a huge focal point behind why people want this stuff removed is because of, quote, the glamorization of it, or that people are gonna idolize it and want to re repeat it or be a part of that, right?

So they say, Hey, having confederate history means people are gonna want to be Confederates, for example. But you could say that about any leader, right? We talk about the Holocaust, right? And we don't glamorize Hitler. I mean, some people do, right? And I mean, that's just how it is because lemme say this, people wanna argue that.

Covering media coverage of school shootings encourages other school shooters. People are always gonna have the idea whether it's on the news or not. Maybe it encourages it more. And by encourage, I mean it just in inspires more and not, that's not why it exists. That's not its purpose, but that's just the result of it.

Right. But even if we erased Hitler from all media coverage and stuff, is someone gonna someday choose to, to hate Jewish people? I mean, that's just how it is. So I think it's like if we're trying to get rid of all this historical coverage and information and these statues to prevent the formation of someone idolizing their morals, I mean, that's just, you can't stop morality.

Whether it's inspired or further encouraged by glamorized history or just. Regular history. I think it's inevitable. So I think getting rid of other people's ability to study history, to try and minimize this percentage of people who are going to then follow it in a negative manner, I think it's just not properly balanced in terms of what we're giving up and what we're actually preventing.

Does that make sense? The argument? Yeah. What you're saying makes sense. I just disagree with it. And I'll tell you what, and this is my kind of hot takes on this one. The eradication of statues does not mean the eradication of the story of the Confederacy not being told first and foremost. You can absolutely destroy these over glorification statues that present a false narrative of the southern reality of the American Civil War and still have discussions of Nathan Bedford Forrest at Bryce's Courtyard in Mississippi.

You can still talk about Rose Krantz v Bragg, you, or you know, you can have those discussions. And they're happening all the time. That will never go away. At the same time, it's important to say that these statues tell a story, not of the American Civil War, but of the earlier 20th century understanding of the Southern cause.

A narrative that was created and amplified under false, historical understanding. This is, that's just reality. And that is, I would say, universally agreed on in academia. However, I would say most people don't. Mm-hmm. Buy into that narrative. And, and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think most people who actually go look at these statues aren't saying, wow, this guy's a hero.

At least that's what I feel, because most of America agrees, or rather, I should say, disagrees with what the Confederacy did or what they stood for. So I feel like most Americans, if they go see these historical sites and these statutes, they're not saying, wow, look at that guy. He is a hero. They're, they're just reading the histor as the narrative as, as you describe it, and just.

Disagreeing with it or just adding it to their reservoir of knowledge. And that's not to say that there aren't people who go and are like, wow, look at that guy. Like, I, I wanna be a confederate. I mean, like I said, that's inevitable. You know, people are gonna always idolize someone in one way or another regardless of their moral character, right?

I mean, we have people all across the world following very evil political leaders. And we have people all across the world following good political leaders. I mean, this war is constantly in a this world is constantly in a war of good and evil. I will tell you, statues are placed to send a message.

When you keep those statues up, you are sending a message. When those statues are in National Park Service battle sites, that message is connected to the federal government and the National Park Service. Like I said if you keep the statues, there need to be an explanation of its manner and which it was created and why it was created and historical narrative that was falsely invented.

To portray and to ensure a false understanding of the confederacy in the Americans civil war. And I, and I agree with that, with that, with that. And that's my perfect dream scenario. You keep the statues, but explain its role in American history to explain the broader understanding of its place. Yeah, I agree with that.

Full spectrum understanding. Yeah. At the same time, just leaving them there without that, that is, that is a cancer to historical understanding of thought. I don't think people are going to bow down to the, to Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. I don't think that is going to occur. But what I do think occurs is that when people see that, that are young and impressionable, 'cause you're a little younger than me, but I remember, and I remember strongly.

People sang a Yankee is a man of that lives north of Two Rivers. I remember the Civil War ain't over, it's just halftime. Hank Williams Jr. Sang a whole song about if the South would've won, we would've had it made. This was a, this was a huge narrative that existed for a long time, and it was a narrative built on the Southern cause narrative, which is factually incorrect.

So the National Park Service has a duty to portray things correctly. I think this realtime history, understanding the statues with a plethora of different other things around it, explaining its role is vitally important just for the telling of history. Well, right. Do not think people are bowing down to Robert E.

Lee. I mean, there's, you got crazies. I mean, you got crazies of course. But I don't think that's occurring. What I do think is occurring is we're amplifying false history if we keep them up in the current manner in which they were. No, I, I agree with that. You know, I think that if we could like you said, the issue is no one's gonna go to all these parks and statues and, and do that, unfortunately.

Even though we spend billions of dollars on other projects that don't benefit any of the American people. So, but okay. That's a whole other conversation. Yeah. That, that's not about statues and removing statues and a, I mean, that's not a giant, huge amount of money being spent on removing statues.

And as, as the joke goes, you know, taxpayer money, there's always more where that came from. But the reality is, is those statues don't really cost a lot of money in the long run compared to the total amount of money US government has. If you think that's crazy, you, you, we were both in the military. The amount of dumb shit the United States Army and United States Navy spent is mm-hmm.

Drastically more than removal of statutes. I don't think finance or budget should be in that equation. All for discussing writing history in national park service areas. Again, my hot tech, right? But the government focuses on finances and budget, and that will be a huge excuse they give. I'm not saying that it's true for the removal of statues, for, for adding more to it to give the full narrative, to give the full historical benefit.

Oh, no. Let's see, let's see. For example you're in Georgia, so, immediately, you know, west of Georgia, you got the Battle of Chicka Maua and Chattanooga. You got Lookout Mountain, you know, you got all those places over there. Not to mention all the things. Sherman burnt Chick Maua was the first national Park service for the American Civil War.

That was literally, they made that like in 64, like when the Civil War was still going on. It's insane. With that, they decided to keep a lot of those monuments there. Because it wasn't made in the 1920s. It literally was made in the 1860s. So a lot of those monuments are still there with that. They put a couple of living history, little signage up there.

Nothing crazy. And I think National Park Services budgeted are so little that I don't think they got the money to do anything they want. And I, I tell you, you talk to these National Park service people. I know the Stones River folks their budgets get slashed every year. They're, they're, they're gotta rely on volunteers.

They can barely afford their staff.

Yeah. All right. I agree. And I'm saying the government will use finance as an excuse not to do. That to add all that stuff or to not provide the funding for the National Park Service or whoever else is in charge of these areas to do so. And I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's kind of the reality of how the government operates sometimes, which is if finances can be used an excuse not to take action then that excuse would be used.

Does that make sense? Hmm. It does make sense. I disagree with it. I think this is such a hot, this is the issue for the National Park Service. This is number one thing they everyone's talking about is these Civil War statues. No one's really talking about, you know, the boats at Niagara Falls. No one's talking about, you know, the old house of Buchanan.

No one's really caring about that too much. Everyone's talking about statues. So I think they're, they're gonna allocate funds. They've already allocated funds for removal of things. Charleston removed things from Marion Square just recently. With that, I think they're gonna allocate funds for that.

And they've already, in the process of doing it, I think they're about 90% done. Like I said, when it becomes the number one thing of conversation, national Park Service has to do something about it just because people contact, people are yelling at politicians over this. So it's kind of, you know, that level of verbiage is pretty high up there for sure.

And to me, there are, yeah. My opinion No, I, I agree. And, and to me with all due respect to. The people who, you know, have all these feelings about this. I feel like there are much more significant world issues to be focused on at the end of the day, to be honest. Like I said, I, maybe this is something that I talk about often but I had just brought it up because of your historical background and because I'm in the era, and, and for full context, you know, I was born and raised in New Jersey, you know, they, everyone calls me a Yankee.

I've been in the south for quite a while, but I don't want anyone to think that I'm defending the Confederacy or anything like that. Right. It's, it's about, yeah, just for me, it's more focused on the motivation and the process. Not about, you know, confederates versus Yankees or anything like that.

And I think the, the south north divide, like you said, it's, it's, I don't know if it's always gonna be there, you know, but there is. It has nothing to do with Confederacy or Yankees. It's just become like a north south divide, like a, a pride thing at the end of the day, really. But you know, you have the same thing with East Coast, west Coast, I mean, wherever it is, every city thinks they're better than the city next to them.

It's, it's just kind of human nature at that point. Yeah. But speaking hundred percent, you know, national parks, historical knowledge and tours. I wanna go back to, in the very beginning I mentioned Nashville Adventures and, and your involvement with that. And I'd love to focus on that for a little bit as well to make sure that, you know, we cover it.

Rock and roll. So, yeah, man. Ask away, brother. Yeah. Well, I'd love for you to just kind of, break down what it is and how you got involved with it and why you do it. Yeah, so Nashville Ventures, I started this bad boy as accumulation of everything I learned in every previous job I've had. Nashville Ventures is a tour operator, does everything from ghost tours, history tours, pub crawls, private events, corporate events, civil war tours, everywhere in between.

I have learned so many things in my life. I army taught me that I can handle anything thrown at me, and I've also been gifted with the worst days of my life already happening. Army gave me that UK taught me that I was in rooms with very important people and we're all equal idiots. Everyone is just different degrees of faking it till they make it.

And that was a gift the United Kingdom Parliamentary Fellowship gave me. I was in rooms with people who make incredible decisions that impact the legislation and realities of. Huge, huge amount of people. I was there for the Brexit era, for example. A lot of those guys, there is no super special sauce to make 'em special to anyone else, right?

They're we're all rocking the same iq, mostly. This, see, after that peace Corps taught me how to make a team, create a team, create a culture. You in the military, you inherit a culture. You gotta abide by the rules of the military. You can't invent a new culture. You gotta dance to the tune of their music.

And Peace Corps people dance at the tune of mine. I went over there and I got to create my own teams, my own things as I defined it, as I wanted. The great thing about the Peace Corps, and then people don't realize this, is they give you three months of training, then they just drop you somewhere. Say, good luck, see you around, and you just do it.

I mean, this is the coolest program ever. It's got this negative assumption about it in the south, but reality is, is there's no organization that puts more trust in an individual to do great things with limited oversight. Like that organization. Amazon taught me how to play with big money. I was dealing with multimillion dollar projects and I learned things.

That was basically my MBA. So when I gotta the point where I got wanted to do what I wanted to do, I created a company that was based on my values, on what I liked, what I felt others might enjoy, and it's blown up. I started this business $3,600 an hour. We're on podcasts all the damn time. We're doing pretty good.

And I think that's because we represent the best of Nashville. Thus, when people come here, we are a reflection of the city that they're going to enjoy very much when they stay here. And I know a lot of people have heard about Nashville. How would you personally describe it to people who haven't been.

Ooh, great question. Depends on the demographic. Most people understand as the, as the bachelorette party headquarters of the world, if they're a lady under 30 years old. If you're over 35, it's generally like the honky tonk capital of the world. It's got a little bit of a resurgence in the early twenties.

Folks. To me it is first and foremost music city. The city that is the best of all the music cities. St. Louis, Memphis, new Orleans. It is pound for pound, I think the most enjoyable. It's also the cleanest at the same time as well. This has a phenomenally historical background to it that enabled this country to be what it was.

It's the anniversary of America this year, and everyone's gonna love those 13 colonies. But because of Nashville. We have Texas California, New Mexico, Utah, Oregon, all because of James K. Polk, who was lived in Nashville, was a governor of here. You got Andrew Jackson who got us the state of Florida as a first Seminole war, as a general.

So you have all these connections to this country that people don't even realize. The historical foundations of Nashville is historical foundations of this country. And so wherever you come from, if you wanna have a good time, there's something here for you and it's delivered in Southern charm and it ain't gonna be bankrupt in you, like if you go to New York City.

So how does Nashville Adventures work? Let's say I'm someone visiting Nashville for the first time and I, I wanna, you know, connect with you and Nashville Adventures to have a great time. What would the process of that kind of look like? Only go to, there's a, we're selling on Get your Guide tours by foot, tours by locals via tour, TripAdvisor, Expedia.

But really nashville adventures.com is what you wanna do. I always tell people we have the best history tour in Nashville. That's our 10:00 AM tour. But that whole thing is the history, highlights and hacks when you first get here and you know, only a Wikipedia or one or two website understanding of Nashville.

This'll get you oriented to where you can have the most fun and the most efficient manner on whatever budget you have. And that's really what made this company what it is. I started it with just that tour and it, it got resident started blowing up. But yeah, that's what I tell people. Natural ventures.com.

We are expanding into XR tours. You're the first to hear of this. So we're gonna be the, the first walking tour xr experience, I think in the South. Which is gonna be really cool. That's gonna be fancy. People are gonna see the Civil War cannons in real time erupt at the state capitol. They're gonna see John Donaldson going over the Cumberland River.

That really kind of unique public history telling. I'm very passionate about. We're also got the best pub crawl in Nashville. Historically tipsy is the name of that, which is fitting. But what I love about this company and what I love about this city is that this city grows with you. It doesn't matter how old you are.

If you're 90 years old, you'll love Nashville. If you're 20 years old, you'll love Nashville. There is not many cities that can appeal to every age demographic and gender like this city, Ken can. And so what is your role now? Do you yourself personally lead any of the tours or you're kind of just in charge of man wish?

Wish? I do. I do one or two. So it turns out this is, motion sensor. Not too still. That's the problem. That's why it's doing that. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah's just listening. The lights have gone off on Mr. Whis screen like two times ago. Yeah. I've in this fancy podcast room and it's motion sensor lights, whoever came up with this idea ain't splitting the atom to put it nicely.

Right. But we good nuke joke there. Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate it. There you go. Yeah. There you go. But what I kind of really enjoy, what was your question? Oh, I do one or two tours a week, to be honest with you. And me and our operations director, we made that commitment. We will do one or two tours a week, always just to keep fresh.

In the army we had this big thing called be no do. You had to live it, be it, do it, embody it in order for other people to really respect it and follow you. That's how we built this business. So I do one or two a week. Wish I could do some more. Oh yeah. I remember in the Navy you have, you gotta requalify, you know, you gotta go back through or take the test and make sure you, you know, you know all your stuff.

That's what's crazy about the Navy. In the Army, there was no real test to get promoted. You just do your job halfway decent. You go to the school and don't fuck up the school. You know, make that 70 or above and you'll pass. Navy has some real damn studying and shit you gotta do, I mean, y'all got real stuff.

Some of the exams I took were six to eight hours long. Up to, that's nuts. You don't have to take that whole time. But at minimum, four to six hours was pretty common and, you know, that's crazy. And there were, there was always someone who, until the instructor was saying, pencils down, you know, so to speak.

That was used in that whole time. And I mean, sometimes I was done and I'm sitting there like, man, and you know, you got no phone, you can't go anywhere. You're just sitting there sometimes. Mm-hmm. If, if. If you're had a bad classroom and they didn't like you, you know, palms down, hands on the table, like sitting at attention, you know, waiting.

Oh really? Wow. Waiting for stuff to be done. But for the most part, you know, you're just sitting there, you can't sleep, you get yelled at and told to stand up in the back if you even look sleepy, which in the Navy we had a say, perception is everything. So if you look sleepy, you're standing up and it's like, no, I'm just I was sitting here waiting for the next three hours of this exam to pass by.

Yeah. You know, you go into the bathroom, you try to see how often you can go to the bathroom before the instructor, you know, stops you because you just wanna get out and stretch your legs. But other times I was grateful for it. Sometimes some of the stuff you're doing in nuke school, you need quite the amount of time to do these problems.

So, but yeah, it was so interesting. I remember talking to the barber about their rank exam and I, I won't discuss, you know, what was on the exam of course, but hearing. The questions they get asked. As a barber in the Navy compared to us as a nuclear operator, I'm like, man, I could have ranked up like 10 times if I was a barber, you know?

Yeah. Like that exam is, is easy money. You know, so it's, that is, that's funny. The barbers have exam. That's funny. I didn't even, I, I wish I could tell you the questions they had, but I, I can't discuss that, but I'll tell you, just try to imagine. What would you quiz a bar on? So Nus, get a Ts with Po. Nukes Get a Ts, right?

I mean I know we did like, ts well we got a secret than a interim ts if you don't Oh, oh yes. There's different clearance levels. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah. The Ts with poly and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Single scope, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I gotta tell you my one quick Navy story, and I think you'll appreciate it.

When I was in Afghanistan, they sent Navy people to Afghanistan. They didn't tell the Navy it was landlocked. And so I got all these EOD people over there, and one of the jobs I had that week. Was to give the in theater brief to a bunch of sailors. So they showed up in our sector, we go over the common, you know, IED rates, you know, things are going on, you know, everything they would need to know to kind of function right in our area of operations.

Forever long they were there and it was a no salute fob, you know, 'cause there's, you know, there's people doing stuff all around us trying to kill us all. If you salute, they're gonna shoot the guy they're saluting at, you know. So this is a no salute place. And the Navy oh three, which is not called a captain, he's still a lieutenant I think so he goes by and you know what you need, sir?

Cool rock and roll. And this navy E seven dude comes over now in the army. E sevens are a big deal, you know, like, Hey Sergeant, first class, what can I do for you? You know, that kind of shit. And he goes like, why didn't you salute him? And I went, well it's 'cause it's a, and literally the science behind me it's 'cause it's a no fucking salute zone.

Dude, what, what do I call you? And he just looked up, nodded at me, and I did not realize is that E sevens are a fucking cult in the Navy. Like, I had no idea. Like there's a cult around the E seven and there's me, and I'm still like, like I'm, I got a ring on, man. I got, I got pretty rank on my chest, you know, like, so I was, I was getting fucking slaughtered by these e sevens.

Yeah, it sounds, and they actually went to like my chain of command and they were like, well, he is like, yeah, it's a no fucking salute zone. And you know what, you're still enlisted. Don't get mad at him for telling you to shut the fuck up. You know, like, what are you doing? But I had no idea. The E seven cult that exists in the Navy, like that is a different level.

Oh yeah. There's, there's, there's a, there's a couple different things. You know, like, funny enough, I don't know if you had this in the Army, but we would have like the, a Filipino mafia on the ship. Like all the Filipino people had their own little group, and then you had like a, mm-hmm. I think, what do they call us?

So there's, there's a term, I think in the Army for e fours. Do you have like a, a term for them? Yeah. There's the specialist, there's corporals, there's the actual rank. Yeah. I mean, like a, a, oftentimes you'll have the term, not an official military term, but like more of a, I don't wanna say derogatory, but you know what I mean, like a group of 'em together with shenanigans.

E four Mafia. Okay. Yeah. E four Mafia. Right. But because we were in a, so my roommate's dad was in the Middle East, and he, he was a demolitions expert and he served a long time. He got us some, some paraphernalia. He got a sticker for the car. He said, you're not E four Mafia. 'cause you're not army, you guys are Navy, so you're a bunch of E four squids.

So he would call us squids. Uh mm-hmm. So that was just something different. But yeah. And in the Navy, you know, chief is, I think it's a, a, a pretty big deal. And because when they're selecting, you know, and I can't remember what's in the, in, in the briefcase, if anything, but all the people who are like Chief Petty officer select, walk around with like a, basically like a suitcase, a briefcase.

And it's like, you know who they are. And a lot of the chiefs did, would do all events together and stuff. And so like it was a its whole own thing. Yeah. You know, like heard they had their own mess, like all sorts of crazy stuff. Oh yeah. And I'll tell you something, if there's no dessert on the ship, the officer's ward has it.

Trust me. I, I remember I was walked around the ship and like we, they were like, oh, we had no soft serve and no brownies and cookies we're just so low on supplies. And I passed through the officer ward. First of all, they had these special round tables with a whole fancy table cloth. They get like almost these nice, nice much, we're sitting on benches.

They got nice chairs and you see all these brownies on display, all these cookies on display, you're like, interesting. Very interesting. You know, and it's okay. I see how it is. And yeah, the chiefs had their own mess and everything. Interesting stuff, you know, so different world, little, yeah, yeah. You know, you don't really have that in the civilian world, I suppose, you know, it's everyone's, everyone.

And is interesting, you know, like as long as you're a veteran, it doesn't matter what rank you are. Like most civilians, just like all veterans are, you know, equal. So yeah, absolutely. You can tell the mini term. Like, I could tell a civilian like, Hey, I was a petty officer. They'd be like, wow, wow. That's huge.

You know, it's like, yeah, they don't, they don't even know. That's just a Navy term, you know? So, yeah. But one other thing I think is kind of unique about the Navy especially is the rank structure and the names. Like, if you're a specialist in artillery or specialist infantry, special forces, you know, your pay grade is your rank, your, you know, sergeant, whatever Navy you'll have like E four boatman mate, third class thing.

And it's like all these different kind of rank names that are job specific. And so as like, whenever I was in that, whenever Navy guys would come over, it would just always be like, what the fuck rank is that? Like what is your, what is, you know, it'd be very confusing. But on a ship it makes sense. You, you know exactly what this guy does for a living, you know, like that quick.

But in the army you don't really function that way. Just kind of little interesting difference. Yeah. Well, and I like that like. Army and stuff calls it MOS because like in the Navy it's called your rate RATE. Right. But if you ask someone, anytime I've asked someone from the Army or marine, like, what's your rate?

They gimme their rank. Yeah. I don't know if that's just a mis so I'm like, I, I learned to say MOS, but then when people will say their MOS, it'll be like, I don't know what the hell that means. It's like 32 delta bravo or something. Like, I don't know what that means. If someone says, what, what was your, my MOS for Navy.

I say, electricians make nuclear operate. You just, or I say EMS. Yeah. Which, you know, then I elaborate what it means. So it's much easier for me, you know, for y'all. You gotta like learn and memorize all that stuff of what is what, you know, people will say I was infantry and then they'll give some kind of numbers and stuff.

I'm like, I don't know what that means. Yeah. Just tell me what you did. And it's crazy 'cause we're all the same country. Yeah, like you would think there'd be some universal applicability, but the Navy is such a historically driven entity from the Royal Navy, and it's just kind of crazy. You're talking about the officer like mess and things like that.

You know, very different from the army. You know, like the Army's a little different. Yeah. But we don't get those a hundred thousand dollars bonuses like nuke skit though. So kind of it balances out maybe. Oh yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know, so many people are against reenlisting in the nuclear program.

At least when I went in that they actually started wearing a paperclip on their uniform that stood for people against people ever reenlisting civilian life as preferred paperclip. And they would wear this as Oh, that's awesome. As a, as a signature that they were not reenlisting and Oh, that's funny.

Yeah. I don't know who thought of that. I would've never thought of people again, that's a army long acronym. Army that smart. But the Navy loves, we would've not thought of. Yeah, yeah. We wouldn't, an army's not that smart. We'd never think of anything like that. Yeah. I think the Army's version of paperclip for not reenlisting is just given the finger.

I don't know if I'm right. Maybe it's, it's kind of funny you say, 'cause it was, yeah. At least in my time, the wars were so heavy. Deployments were so crazy. A lot of, there was not really a super expectation to reenlist, you know, like, you kind of like. People did their time and they got out. I mean, there was maybe 20, 30% stayed in after that first contract, but that was really about it.

Yeah. At least in my time. And real quick, maybe it's different now. Last story I'll tell before we get off here, just about the finger, is I heard a story when we were in bootcamp, young gentleman, probably, you know, 17, 18 years old, made it through bootcamp, which you know, can, can be very difficult for some people, can be just very boring and tedious for others.

You know, everyone goes through a different, but it gets through bootcamp and you get onto a bus and either they take you to the airport or they take you, they just drive you sometimes across the street or down the road. Mm-hmm. And as the bus is pulling away, he gives dual middle fingers to his instructors who were watching the bus leave.

Like, ha ha, you know, and f you guys, I'm outta here. See you suckers. Well, the instructors had the bus stopped. And they pulled him off the bus and sent me through bootcamp a second time, said, obviously you didn't learn anything. So, yeah, if you're gonna give the finger, make sure you're further away, do it tactical, don't do it.

Do it. Do it in your room by yourself, in spirit. Do it tactical. Yeah. Tactical about it. So, just a lesson in case you were thinking of going through bootcamp and giving someone the finger. Don't, don't just have some common sense at that point. But yeah. Mr. Appreciate you coming on the show today. I think what you do appreciate you is really unique and you know, we're gonna have links in the description below for people to go check out what you do, look at Love it.

Different tours. Like you mentioned, there's so many different things to do in Nashville, so I think whether you're going for music for, I didn't know it was a bachelorette scene. If you're going for a bachelorette scene, if you're going for history, yeah. You know, whatever you're going for check it out.

And if you're gonna check it out, you might as well take a tall tour with Mr. Whitton. Ask specifically for him. Amen. Say I'm not doing it. There you go. I'm not, I'm not doing it unless he takes me. I saw him on a podcast. I got, I wanna talk to him. But yeah. Thank you. There you, I love it. Thank you for your service and thank you for what you do now.

Thank you for yours. All right, my man. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.