Why Men Struggle To Love Themselves: Real Talk About Shame, Regret, & Isolation

Today, I sit down with Jason Lyle to have an honest conversation about men’s mental health, addiction recovery, suicide prevention, and faith. Mr. Lyle shares his journey from serving as a pastor for over a decade to losing his position due to sex addiction, the impact that had on his marriage, and how unresolved trauma from early adoption shaped his patterns of behavior. We discuss how isolation, shame, and guilt drive many forms of addiction, including pornography, relationships, substances, and destructive coping mechanisms.

We explore the relationship between faith and responsibility, focusing on how spiritual language can sometimes be used to avoid accountability rather than pursue healing. Mr. Lyle explains how nervous system regulation, breathwork, cold water immersion, meditation, and self-inquiry helped him interrupt destructive impulses and regain agency over his choices. Our discussion highlights the difference between being alone and being lonely, and why community is essential for men navigating recovery, especially in a culture increasingly shaped by screens and virtual connection.

Later in the episode, we talk about the work Mr. Lyle does through The Sacred Grit, Adventures and Recovery, and his men’s retreats. He outlines his process for helping men confront shame, rebuild self-worth, and develop self-discipline through embodied practices, reflection, and shared experiences.

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and I'm currently traveling on the road. I am not in my normal studio. If you're watching, you can see that. And if you're listening, it might be noticeable in audio quality. So I do apologize if it is not as high quality as normal, but traveling on the road, doing some great things, meeting up with guests from the show that I met, you know, a year or two ago, gonna see them in person for the first time. So, very exciting stuff. One of the great things about Global Connection, we'll get into. How social media and technology has really damaged mental health, especially for both men and women, and we're gonna get into those conversations. But on the bright side has also allowed conversations like we're gonna have today and to connect with people from around the world. So, without further ado, I wanna introduce today's guest, Jason Lau. We're gonna get into men's mental health. Men's health and Suicide Prevention and addiction Recovery all goes together along with the faith. And Mr. Lyle, could you please just give us a little background on who you are and why you're here? Yeah. My name is Jason Lyle. I run an organization called The Sacred Grit, and a podcast called The Sacred Grit Podcast. I also run an organization that's the nonprofit organization called Adventures and Recovery. And it is a, it's a free organization for fraternal organization. Men come in and join. By going on adventures with us and we meet once a month and it's just a community of men going on adventures, backpacking, mountain biking, rock climbing. We're fly fishing, we're doing all manner things just to continue the group continuity. I was a pastor for 13 years and lost my job. Because of a sex addiction. So I went through a recovery process and inside of that process, I also had, I was adopted when I was two weeks old and never really knew the impact that adoption had on me. So. Through that process, I accessed autonomic nervous system work or nervous system regulation, kind of a buzz word nowadays. And through that I have found that cold water immersion, breath work, meditation, those tools when used with self-inquiry can really give men a leg up on the recovery process. Rather, that's recovery from drugs, alcohol, pornography, sex, food divorce. One of my guys lost his son to a tragic UTV accident, and so he, you know, went through the process and still goes through the process. So yeah, that's what brought me here. So through all that still a pastor at heart Love working with people. I love helping people and so sacred Grit was born out of that desire to do so. So I run Adventures and Recovery is my main gig. And then I coach people one-on-one, do men's retreats and have the podcast. One of the things you mentioned during that talk right there was the, the group continuity, you know, getting men together. And that's so important because one of the biggest factors behind the men's mental health issues and suicide rate is isolation, right? So many men feel like they are alone, and there's this message put forward to. Be alone. And I think there is a difference in handling things on your own and being alone. You know, there are two different things. The the difference between physical isolation and emotional isolation and a combination of both. And I think that our society is really lacking, you know, men's community where men get together and do stuff, especially as the newer generations get more and more on these online world. Thrown amidst all this chaos, we've seen the, you know, the decline of group activities, especially in person. And then on top of it, you know, I think so many men are alone and you know, there's a lack of, you know, I've had some episodes before in men's mental health and community, and there's kind of like a lack of. Passage hood or men's group that they used to have in a lot of cultures where, you know, there was a passage of manhood and that men were, you know, together and, and bonded in that way. It, of course, it looks different in every culture, but we're really lacking that structure. I want to go back to a couple different things, starting with. You know, your addiction recovery and, and you know, losing your position and how it affected your faith and everything. 'cause that's a really important conversation. You know, especially about when it comes to addiction recovery. So much of the focus is on, you know, drugs or alcohol, but pornographic addiction is huge. In fact, I would say it's a bigger issue, especially among the younger generations than alcohol or drugs because it is so much more accessible. Drugs and alcohol at a younger age. Right. Porn, pornography, average age of exposure is currently, you know, eight to nine years old, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's much harder for a eight or 9-year-old to get drugs or alcohol, though it is possible than it is to just go on the internet and access porn. And I know different states are currently controversially, although it shouldn't be controversial or trying to require age verification for that kind of content. And so there are some. Movements happening, but as of right now, it's pretty much anyone can access it at any time. So obviously I want to get into your journey with that experience and how it's affected everything you do to this day. Sure. Well, the opposite of addiction is connection. We know that. I mean, that's been, that's kind of a, a, a known adage inside of the recovery rooms. That's the reason why we go to meetings. So creating that connection, just to, to your point there is huge, specifically for men, and I tell guys all the time, there's a big difference between being alone and being lonely. Being alone is okay. You know, being alone with yourself is okay. Being lonely is not, those are two very specific things and I think that a lot of the porn addiction that we see has, and I didn't really have a porn addiction. I had relationship addiction, just to be clear. Mm-hmm. But I do work with a lot of guys who have porn addiction and a lot of it is loneliness. And you touched a minute ago on, you know, everything being virtual now, so, you know, like, this is a beautiful thing. You and I can do a podcast hours away from each other and get this information out. There's also a fairly new development, and so, you know, to be able to talk to somebody across a computer and to be able to record it and to air it, and all these different things that you're gonna do with this, that's new. So in the past, you know, 10 to 15 years, we've created a dynamic where people can have community online. We have Facebook and Instagram and TikTok. We have. Zoom we have, you know, and then COVID brought even more technology into the space. But so we farm out our social structure to technology and it really shouldn't surprise us to do the same with pornography. So, you know, we're seeing that men are gravitating toward a screen instead of a real life human being because. The screen is kind of safe. You know, I don't have to put myself out there and, and, and take a chance on being rejected by a woman. If I could just pop her up on a screen and then, you know, use that however I want to. My journey was much more about. A feeling inside when I would interact with women and which makes complete sense. I mean, when your first relationship with a woman you were given away, you know, it's kind of a preverbal thing. You kind of go through life with this idea of, well, I'm just disposable. And anything that feels like rejection kind of hurts on a different level. And I know everybody gets hurt by rejection, but I only have my experience. I would go from one relationship to the next, to the next, to the next, while being married, by the way, which is a problem for a pastor to the next to the next, trying to find someone who would fill a hole that can never be filled by anything. Other than myself. So spiritually speaking, you know, you can imagine going through that process of being a pastor and having extramarital affairs, which were not in the church, but they were in the community. So these were not people who went to my church, but they knew who I was. It was torment. To sit there and to, to break the very morals that your religion of your upbringing taught is a dichotomous life. So it's like you're always being pulled apart. So, but it's also equally easy through the theological, you know, I was raised Southern Baptist, but to through the theological upbringing that I had to think, well, God's in control. God's sovereign God knows this God. Even in some ways, for those more Calvinist folks, you know, God planned this, God preordained this. You had that part. Then also mixed that with, well, I'm just a sinner. You know, I'm just broken. I'm just a sinner. Both of those are justifications for your actions. So I think the biggest twist that I had in my spiritual life was taking responsibility for my own life, and that's really where nervous system regulation came in. The words of Jesus just became so much more clear to me. You know, Jesus said the spirit of God, I'll give you the spirit of God, the para cleat. The word para cleat is a Greek word that means come alongside para cleat, help you dig in. So Jesus said, I'm gonna give you a helper. So I used to think that that meant somebody to do it for me, but that means that there's a spirit that does it with me. That means I still have to take ownership of my side of things. Yes. I have to gain the capacity to make the right decision. So when Jesus tells Nicodemus, if you really wanna see the kingdom of heaven, you must be born again. I think what Jesus was not talking about was some bright morning, when this life is over, I'll fly away. I think Jesus was saying if you. Can step into the next moment as if you've never seen it before that's being born again. It's like I'm walking into this as if I've never seen it before. I can see the moment for what it is and not what I think it is. And if I can see it for what it is and not what I think it is, I can choose. And if I choose in the direction of light, not darkness, well God comes alongside and says, yes, that's the right direction, and you can get more and more direction in that manner. So I would say that I shifted from, a God out there religion. And I tell people all the time that there may be a God on a cloud somewhere with a big white beard sitting on a throne. I don't know. I, I, I've not seen it. I've experienced it. I've not seen it. But here's where I do know God lives and that is inside of me. And I think that, you know, to accept that and to kinda let go of all the external. Maybes and just accept the internal certainty that this is where God is working with me has re it's revolutionized my spiritual life. As someone who is a Hebrew and Greek language enthusiast, I appreciate what you shared and I like to share. The word I use for my addiction recovery program from Greek is SMOs. Mm-hmm. Which comes from second Timothy chapter one, verse seven, where they say. For the spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love, and self-discipline. And that self-discipline word Greek is somos, which is soundness of mind and self-control. And so I think that goes right in tandem with that. And what I like to always say, I'm not the inventor of this quote, but it's a great one whoever made it, which is if Satan can't get you on the battlefield, he will get you in the bedroom. And you look at many of the great. Historical figures in the Bible. You look at King David Samson, king Solomon, most of them, their downfall was because of women, specifically multiple women. In Samson's case, just one woman, but. You know, again, that same temptation and Deuteronomy 17, 17 says, A king shall not take for himself many wives, otherwise they will lead his heart astray from the Lord. And you know, so many people focus on the part of, alright, I'm not supposed to have multiple wives, but what does that second part say? That's an important part. They will lead your heart astray from the Lord. And you look at pornography or in, in the case of real adultery in the, in the physical world. They are gateways, right? And it's just like a lot of people who start in pornography slowly get more and more advanced advanced for a lack of better words, into things that are more abnormal immoral. And things that, you know, I won't give exact names 'cause I think we're supposed to be simple regarding evil, right? But there is a, it is a gateway. It leads to some terrible things. Same with adultery, right? It starts on small people, if you want to use the word micro cheating, right? Different things that build up more and more. And so I think it's so important to look at that leading your heart is straight from the Lord. What, where, what does that look like ultimately? But most importantly, where does it start? And so I think it's so important. So many men. You know, don't a lot of people even have this justification that pornography is not sinful because it does not involve a, a real woman or person. But at the end of the day, what is the foundation of it is lust. It is, I mean, it is just a whole slew of sexual immorality and so that is at the heart of it. Then that is what is. Needed to be focused on rather than the justification excuse of, oh, it's not real people, so it doesn't matter. I think that's a huge excuse and that's part of denying that accountability. And I do think a, a huge part of it is loneliness for, for a hundred percent. And, you know, I just have never understood it. I have to ask what your, your process of healing from that. Well, a couple things. So number one, what happened to your marriage, and then two, what did that play a role in? Why you decided to, what made you want to seek help? Yeah, so I got divorced is what the ultimate outcome was. But let, I wanna back up for just a second. 'cause I, I do wanna talk about I think we have to be careful, and I just wanna say this on the record, it is not women's fault that men can't control themselves. And I think that's one of the things that the church has taught over the years. You know, women need to cover themselves. They need to, you know, look to specific women are not responsible for how a man responds and pornography. While as the catalyst for the problem is not the problem, the problem is the man using the pornography. If there weren't men using pornography, pornography wouldn't exist. So I just want to, you know, for when you ask about healing, that is, that has been my healing part, is that I take radical responsibility for my life. So if a young lady walks across a room and she's scantily dressed, it is my decision to not look, it's my decision to not allow those thoughts. Right? It is my decision to that is it's not for her to try to control my life, or, and it's, you know, I, I've worked with guys before and they're like, oh, these women, they just drift. That's, that's not, that, that is not their problem. Our ability to control ourselves is not. A female's problem. And so I just wanna make sure that I'm clear about that. I, I get what you're saying and I agree with you, but we say, you know, a woman can be the downfall. It makes her sound like a drug. And women are not drugs. They're, they're to be honored and respected and loved, and cared for and taken care of. It's a reason why men exist. We exist to take care of our female counterparts. We're to protect them while they do the part that they do, which is raise children, kids a hundred percent. I just wanna make sure I'm clear about that. I, my, I got divorced. It took a few years for that to happen. We tried and it was not because my wife is a terrible person, or my ex-wife is a terrible person. It's just because the damage that I had done, I was not gonna get over that. There's no way to be a good man when you have done the things I've done. I didn't have one affair or two, I had multiple. So, you know, it's hard to overcome that. Mm-hmm. What brought me to a place of, wanting to get help was suicidal ideation. I was, you know, planned my suicide. I had it what exactly what I was gonna do. But I had met a man, I worked in wilderness therapy for working with children or not children, teenagers, troubled teens out in the woods. And this dude came in to do a training one night named Rob Gent, and Rob asked us field guides, he said, have you ever noticed that when the kids get dysregulated. They had the craziest behaviors, and they don't make any sense. Like we're in the middle of 40,000 acres and they'll run away. Like, where you going? We're in the middle of 40,000 acres. Right? We're all like, yeah. And he goes, well, that's because they're flipping their lid. And he explained to us how when a child gets dysregulated that has experienced trauma, their prefrontal cortex goes offline. They're living from their amygdala, which is their, their fight or flight response. The reason why you can't reason with them is because they don't have access to reason. They're acting from a fight or flight response. And the majority of the kids we worked with were adopted. And as he was teaching this training, he, he said, is anybody in here adopted? And I said, yeah, I am. And he said, well, Jason, if I told you that I love you and I want what's best for you, what's the first words that come to your mind? And I said, bullshit. I apologize. You might have to bleep that out, but its first thing that popped outta my, my mouth and he goes, yeah, exactly. He said, because in that space of how could somebody love you, you don't believe anybody can, he says, pre-verbal trauma. And it just intrigued me because that is the way I had felt the majority of my life. And so when I was laying on my side planning my suicide. I as a last ditch effort, I reached out to him and sent an email and he responded and we met over a Zoom call and he gave me the tools, you know, cold water immersion breath work, , meditation, and he said, give it a try and see where it goes. And that was, let's see, October 19th, 2021. And so it's been almost a five year journey and it is unbelievable. And all the, I have two, I have a degree in. Theology. I have a degree in international community development. I read the Bible through for the first time when I was eight years old. I mean, I have been in church my whole life, and when I started doing these practices, it was like everything that I ever learned that I held in my prefrontal cortex became real in my body. It was like. Oh, I, I get this and I get where Jesus says, you'll know them by their fruits. He's saying, literally what you believe is how you'll act, and we have access to that belief system, and you have the ability to examine it and see how it plays out in your life. Well then you can start actually allowing God to work through you instead of you trying to control God. And so that's really what took me there. It was the fear of, you know, I was gonna end my own life. I didn't wanna do that. I have two kids and a grandson and you know, I'm, I'm a happy person overall, but. Having behaviors, you know, people will think, they think of sex addiction or pornography addiction and all these other things. They go, oh, you know, you just wanted to do that. Or what? Listen, man, unless somebody has ever been addicted to something and they, they don't understand the pain of doing something that you really do not want to do, like inside of your soul, you're going, I do not wanna do this, but yet you can't control yourself. Until they've been there. A lot of people understand it. You know, Oreo cookies are, might be a prime example for some people, but we've all had. Experiences where we're going, I really don't wanna do this, but this is what I still do. When you have that and it's something as destructive as sex and, and adultery, it's torturous. So finding a way out, man, as soon as he gave me those tools and I was able to get to work, I was able to, to to recover and then found out that it works for other men. I've helped meth meth heads that was not very nice. Meth addicts. I've had heroin addicts. I've had, you know, pornography alcohol, you name it. And we've, you know, we've worked through these things by using the tools we've helped get control over those impulses. So one thing you reminded me of is, you know, a lot of people quote this, which is, you know, I do not understand what I do for what I want to do. I do not do, but what I hate I do. And I think what's interesting too is I want to go back to, we talked about suicidal ideation. Was the foundation for that guilt? Was it just the guilt and weight of everything you had done? Or was it. This is the only way I can stop myself and stop more of this behavior from happening, or what was kind of the thought process behind that? The thought process was, I am like a dog who keeps biting people. And the best thing you do with a dog that keeps biting people is you put it down. Mm. And I mean, it was that rational. It wasn't emotional. It wasn't, I wasn't, woe is me. I wasn't, it was just literally a moment of I'm just, I don't need to be here anymore. Like I, you know, my wife, my kids, my church, all these people, I just continued to hurt. It's like, what am I, what am I doing? It doesn't even make sense. And so, yeah, that it was just the logic of just euthanasia pretty much. It was like, I just need to check on out here. Right. No, I really appreciate your analogy with the dog. I think it's great imagery because in one of my favorite parts of the Bible is actually, it says, as a dog returns to his vomit, so a full returns to his folly. And you know, I, you just think about like, you see your dog eat his vomit and then you tell to knock it off and they just keep going back. It's just makes no sense. And so. I, I think that imagery is great because, you know, a lot of times we feel like we're the problem instead of the addiction. And, you know, it's hard because like you, you know, especially you're thinking I'm the one who keeps choosing this, or I just can't control myself. What do I do? And so I want to get into. What you're doing now. You said you've helped so many people with this recovery process for a, a, you know, a variety of different ailments and afflictions of addiction. You know, what does your process kind of look like? How do people work with you? How do men get in contact with you, all of that, and like, you know, your day to day and your group activities, what is that looking like? Yeah, so the word sin is a Greek word Aya. And Aya means to miss the mark. Hmm. It does not mean that you do the wrong thing. It means that your intention is wrong. So to me, sin is a belief problem. It's like I'm believing the wrong thing and usually that's the wrong thing. I'm believing about myself. And so that produces wrong belief. Produces wrong action, right Belief produces right action. So here's what I teach men to do. We start out, I send a series of videos and that series of videos is they learn breath work. Cold water immersion, meditation, and they just create this small practice. Now, there's other ways to do this, but these are just the tools that I use and the reason why I give them that upfront is it's a grounding exercise for anybody who's interested in, or is heard about somatic experiencing therapy. It's about grounding and resourcing, grounding. I am here right now. What is really going on right here? I'm not living in the past. I'm not living in the future. You know what Paul said? I, I don't look behind, but I strive forward, but Jesus said it's like a bird and a lily, and all birds and lilies know how to do is to bird and Lily. They're right here, right now. I can come into the present moment and then I resource myself. What can I do? Right now, not tomorrow, whatnot. I can't do anything about yesterday. What can I do right now? So I try to teach those two things, and then we start to unpack what guys believe about their self and it'll come out, you know, I mean, they, they'll start having conversations around, you know, well, I'm just this, or I'm just that, or I always, or I never. And all those things are just lies. The, the problem with getting men to move through addiction is not getting them to stop using their drug of choice. That's pretty easy. But to get them to believe that they are not their drug of choice. 'cause most of them do believe they are their drug of choice. But if you take Christian theology, it is very root. You know, Jesus, if you. We may or may not be born sinners. I, you know, the mainline evangelical Christian theology says that we inherited sin through Eve. If that's what somebody wants to believe, the good, good, that's fine. But here's also what Christian theology teaches is that Jesus, through his sacrifice and your belief in that sacrifice has made you perfect. And even when the woman's caught in adultery, he tells her, he says, I don't accuse you. Nobody here accuses you. Now go and stop doing that. Go and send no more. So it's about a belief. Jesus is saying, you are not accused anymore. Now go and live that way. You know, we just recently had another Christian leader fall from adultery and he was a well known Christian leader, and it's not, it's Philip Yancy who authored the book. What's so Amazing about Grace, I mean, he's sold millions of copies of books, had a eight year affair. Well, here's the thing. If, if you're having affairs like I was, it is a belief problem. It's, it's how you see the world. And so we start working with men and how they rewire, we, me start rewiring their brain. How do you see yourself? I teach men how to love themselves first when they ask Jesus, what is the greatest commandment he could have said. Anything. But he said, oh, that's easy. Love the Lord your God. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. So we start by loving ourselves. That gives us a platform to love our neighbor. And if we love our neighbor, that gives us a platform to fall in love with God. He says, Jesus was saying in that little trilogy there, he's saying, if you don't love yourself, you can't love anybody else. You sure can't love God. So. I teach men how to love themselves. That means you get up in the morning, you make loving decisions towards yourself. That might be you want to go pray or read the Psalms, or it might be, but I encourage them to have a body-based practice, cold water, something to where they're putting themselves in their body. I encourage them to have a journal time, which is reflection. And it really starts to change their my, their thought process. And then I encourage 'em to have some sort of integration. So they're always looking for small opportunities throughout the day. Some guys, I suggest for 'em to fast from food on an occasion so that they can feel the primal urge to eat, but let it pass. So. The whole process is about being able to stop for just a second and pause. We're creating the capacity to when we're uncomfortable, that's cold water work. When we feel discomfort, instead of going, let me get outta here. We pause for a minute and go, hold on, let me catch that impulse. I wanna hold for just a minute and then we can. As we gain the capacity to pause in that discomfort, we get access to a choice. We can see what we're about to do, and once we see what we're about to do, we can weigh that against what is the self-love? How do I love myself enough to get out of this? You know, Jesus said, or John chapter one says, the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Mm-hmm. What we believe doesn't mean anything until it becomes our flesh and, and translates itself into our actions. And so we're always harping upon how we make our thoughts, become our actions, and make sure that we're working with our thoughts. For us that, you know, Saturday morning we were at the local rock climbing gym. There's about seven or eight of us sitting around climbing up walls and having conversations about cold water immersion. We'll head. We're going to a Sound Bowl experience in February. We're hiking in March. We're going to Colorado in June for to a triple summit of some 14,000 foot peaks. We're just doing life together as men and that is one of the most powerful things we can do. If someone wants to work with me, they can just go to the sacred grit.com and they can book a consultation call and I'd, I'd love to see how I could help you. They can find, you know, the podcast is The Sacred Grit Podcast, and all this information's on there for free. But the biggest thing I wanna offer people is that there is hope. There's a way to heal. And so many men have tried everything. You know, they've 12 stepped it, they've, you know, prayed. They've been to, you know, I've had guys who went to have demons, cast out of them, you know, in hopes that they could fix this problem. But really all it comes down to at the end of the day is, can you be honest about where you really are? Can you be curious and ask yourself, what can you do about that? And can you love yourself enough to do it? And that's a whole process that I try to teach men to do. And along those lines of self-love, now obviously it's gonna be a little different for everyone, but based on all the men you've worked with in your own experiences, especially based on all those men you've worked with, what would you say is the biggest thing keeping men from loving themselves? Shame, shame and guilt. Bar none. You know, they, they can't let go of the things they've done. I, I'll ask people all the time. I'll say, why are you not perfect right now? They'll say, well, you don't know the things I've done. And I'll say, yeah, but that's the things you've done. That's not what you're doing. That's what you've done. Mm-hmm. Well, you don't know what I'm capable of. And I'll say that's, that's what you're capable of. Like, tell me right now. Here's the thing, dude and I have learned this the hard way. The reason why they like to hold onto the past is it gives them the justification to do. Things over again. It's what Paul Paul meant in Roman seven. It's the things that I don't wanna do, I keep on doing. He said, who will save this wretched man, thanks to be the Lord Jesus Christ? He's saying, the salvation, the belief that I already am made perfect. And that is what changes men is that they have, but they have to take responsibility. If, if all I ever tell myself is I'm just a sinner, well then when I sin, it's like, see. I can justify my own actions because after all, I'm a sinner. But if I say no, I am a redeemed, perfect, precious human being, son of God, in the eyes of God, I am perfect. Well, that don't just mean in the eyes of God. That means that has to be in the eyes of me too. I see myself the way that God sees me. Well now. I no longer have justification for those actions. I can't go and have these actions that are antithetical to what I say I believe because I am saying I believe I'm perfect. Perfect is, I'll quote Forrest Gump. Perfect is, perfect does right? It's like if I believe I. That I already am, then those actions will come out. And it doesn't mean that we get it right every single time, but that's where grace and forgiveness of the cross comes in. It's like when I do make a mistake, I, I don't do it maliciously. I do it like I just made a mistake, grace, forgiveness comes in, I'm perfect. This new moment, I'm reborn. Kingdom of heaven, I can go forward. So yeah, the biggest thing that holds him back is just shame and guilt, man. But shame and guilt is nothing more than motivation to do it more if you don't watch it. Mm. I really like that. And you know, I just wanna remind everyone, when you look at the historical accounts of the Bible, you look at some of the people that God used to do amazing, wonderful things. Those were people who had a lot of shame and guilt. Some of them, you know, and the sha and guilt, you know, it's, it's about that repentance, that accountability, that acknowledgement of. Yes, it happened. Here's what we do from here, you know, and it doesn't have to be tearing off your shirt and fall into your knees, but that acknowledgement of what you've done is so important. I think journaling with the reflection is so important. So many people, one of the issues is so many people are so busy. Investing into other people's lives on social media, all this noise and buzz from mainstream media, social media, all this stuff going on in the world that they never sit down with, just their own thoughts. If they sit down with God to discuss their thoughts unfortunately for most people it's just like five minutes a day at that, you know, we never sit down and take the time to talk with ourselves or God in a way that is. Reflective. So I think the journaling is, is great and I just wanna emphasize that 'cause I know you mentioned that earlier and I, I think it's really important and I think, you know, I've never taken an ice bath, but the way it's described, I think that's also a great time for reflection because it really, you know, the way it calms the body, I'm sure you could go into the science behind it, but I think that final message of loving yourself is so important. And I think I. If you are someone who has men in your life you should take this as a reminder to help remind them to love themselves. You know? 'cause a lot of people forget to do that or struggle with doing that. So just take the time to let them know why they should love themself, by explaining to them how they're valuable to you. And tell others, you know, just remind them of their worth because so many of us feel worthless, especially because of the shame and guilt. So, it's so important to check on one another. And especially be checking on the men in your life, especially those who are very closed off and, and don't wanna talk about it. And you can, you can address it without prying. You can do so in a way that is polite and that they're receptive to but. Be sure to maintain that balance of not prying to the point of disrespect or closing them off more. You know, there is a balance to be had and definitely pray about it. Mr. Lyle, like you mentioned, the sacred grit.com, we're gonna have that in a description below for people to check out all that you do. Which is a lot of different things as you mentioned. So they can browse that website and check out and maybe sign up to join you on one of your retreats coming up here. But I wanna thank you for the work that you do. As you and I mentioned off microphone before we started, the suicide rates in men are extremely high. The mental health issues, the isolation, and as we talked in episode, it's a, it's a huge thing. And so I really appreciate. You taking your time to work with these men one-on-one in groups, and then to guests on shows like this as well as hosting your own show? I think what's really important is that we have men. Standing up and, and speaking for men, especially amongst the crowd. You know, a lot of men who work in men's health are actually, you know, other men try to tear us down, say that we're feminizing men, or that, you know, we get attacked by people with toxic masculine values that do not align with the masculine values of scripture. And so I know that it's not easy to do the work that you do, so I really appreciate it. It. Yeah, man. Here's the thing, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I know we're trying to wrap it up, but when people attack this idea, and you're right about masculinity, here's the thing. The word repentance literally means to change direction. The word repentance literally means I was going this way, now I'm gonna go that way. And if you wanna know what it means to be a man, what it means to be a man is to have the guts to stand up and look at the direction you're going and go, I don't wanna be that man anymore. I want to go the other direction. Proverbs Solomon writes the foolish, see danger. And, and I'm sorry the prudent see, danger and take refuge, but the foolish keep going and suffer for it. So to see that where you're going is about to cause you problems and turn around and go the other direction, I don't know how much more of a man you can be than that. Mm-hmm. Amen to that. Mr. Lyle, thank you so much for your time today and I appreciate you. Thank you my friend.