How To Travel Sober Without Relapsing: Sober Travel Tips With Teresa Bergen

Today, I sit down with Teresa Bergen to talk about sober travel—why traveling can spike stress, anxiety, and cravings, and how those factors can put recovery at risk if you don’t plan ahead. We break down what “sober travel” actually looks like in the real world and why alcohol-free options should be normalized, not treated like an afterthought or villainized.

Ms. Bergen shares how she became a travel writer and what shaped her recovery story, including how early sobriety gave her a full adult life to build healthy habits and meaningful adventures. We also talk about how travel culture often revolves around drinking—especially on industry trips—and how that pressure can make non-drinkers feel “othered” unless they reframe the experience and travel with intention. 

I walk through practical relapse-prevention strategies for common travel chaos: delayed flights, cancellations, boredom, and isolation. Ms. Bergen explains how to build a simple safety system—bring distractions and snacks, plan check-ins with your accountability people, and avoid leaving big empty pockets of time that steer you toward the airport bar or the “just one won’t matter” lie. 

We also highlight Ms. Bergen’s Sober Travel Handbook and the types of scenarios it prepares you for—work networking, family events, and trips where people keep pushing drinks. She points listeners to additional sober-friendly resources like The Sober Curator, and we close with the mindset that matters most: choose trips that fit your recovery, keep an exit strategy, and make sobriety-inclusive plans (including mocktails) normal for everyone. 

teresabergen.com

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and we've done a lot of addiction recovery episodes on this podcast, but today's is going to be a little more particular focusing on sober. Travel. And now that might seem kind of strange at first when you hear it, but there are many people who cannot travel without drinking.

And there are many factors about traveling that cause stress, anxiety, and can really elevate those urges to drink, to help cope with those or trigger you into relapse. So we're gonna talk today about sober travel and even a little bit of ve uh, vegan travel as well. So we'll get into that. As well. We are here with Theresa Bergen and it is so great to have you here and I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Hi, Mr. Whiskey. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be on your show. So I live in Portland, Oregon on the beautiful west coast of U of the US and I am a long time sober person and I've been travel writing for about 15 years. So I have other interests as well, but those are ones I've been working on a lot recently.

And kind of on a, I'm on a mission to normalize non-drinking as an option. For sure. I think that's really important. So of course we gotta start with what got you into traveling. Is this something that you've always done or is it more the recent years? I've always loved to travel and I'd say it started out in my childhood.

I grew up in San Diego. And my family. We were middle class, but we never went on planes. We always went on road trips together with me and my parents and me and my two sisters, and we most since, since San Diego's at the bottom of the state, we saw a lot of California and then once in a while we'd make it to Oregon or Washington or to Arizona, but I always really loved those trips, just seeing different places, meeting people that were a little different, checking out the landscape.

So that was the beginning of it. And then. When I got to be an adult, I had the chance to go further abroad and, um, I've always been a writer and I managed to put those things together about 15 years ago and started to learn about the world of travel riding, right? I'm personally team road trip over flying.

I hate airports. I hate flying. I like driving better. I think the. A lot of reasons. I like having, you know, the room of, if I wanna bring stuff I can. If you know with a road trip you can get those spontaneous adventures going where you happen to see something and you're like, Hey, let's stop there. We're flying.

You go from point A to point B, there's no deviation and that could be a good thing to keep you on task and in budget. But I think the. Part of the fun is, you know, having that adventure, that ability to deviate and to be flexible. So I've always been team road travel, and then I wanna get into your struggle with addiction as well, and kind of talk about what you have gone through in life.

I was real lucky because I went, I started early and I quit early, so I was kind of a little juvenile delinquent when I was in my teens and managed to quit when I was only 20, so I wasn't even legal yet. And that's given me my whole adult life to do, to do, uh, interesting stuff and not be chained by addiction.

Right. But I, I'd say part of the reason I quit so early was because I moved to New Orleans when I was 19 and I had last year really hard drinking there and that was such a 24 hour city and I didn't have family or anybody there, so I could just, you know, do as much as I wanted on that of drinking. And, you know, day or night, wake up in the middle of the night, the bar's still open.

Um, so it kind of brought me down fast where if I'd been somewhere that was a little, had a few more rules and restrictions, I might've. Lasted as a drinker longer. But I'm glad I didn't because like I said, it's kind of a waste of time to be in your addiction. It's not really that interesting. Um, like you, you, you might think you're doing something exciting, oh, I'm partying with these people.

But it's really like your world shrinking, shrinking, shrinking as you're just hanging out the same people doing the same things, blacking out, passing out. It's really not very exciting or glamorous. And especially if I got older, still acting that way, it would've been. Kind of embarrassing. I like being a, um, respectable citizen in my city now instead of like a 24 7, making an ass outta myself in public.

Right, right. I know in the military it was always, uh, you know, if you're gonna do stuff like that, make a plan. And if your plan falls through, you know, don't be a jerk. You know, at least, at least if you're gonna, you know, do that stuff. Don't be a jerk about it. And. How does that all tie together for you wanting to focus specifically on sober traveling?

What kind of pushed you into that field? Well, I'd say it was because I started doing a lot of travel writing, and when you're a travel writer, you're often on press trips with other travel writers, and so many of them were focused on things like wine. So I'd be sitting around, you know, give it to go. You kinda have to go with the program.

It sounds exciting to go on a press trip, but they run you around from morning to night with all these, um, activities, right. Meals and stuff. So I, I'd be at these endless meals and people would be sitting around me like, oh, I'm a wine writer, and oh, I have my craft beer blog and you know, all this drink and drink and drinking kind of stuff.

Um, and I had a lot of resentments about it. I didn't wanna sit there and listen to their boring wine talk, but it was part of my job. So I tried to, um, and I'd feel, uh, kind of, other than, and like I was left out, so I tried to reframe it and I started saying, oh, I write about sober travel, and I didn't know what that was, and no one else did either.

Like, what does that mean? But I, I tried to reframe it instead of being like, oh, I can't participate. I'm left out. Um, so then I started thinking more about like, what does that mean to be a sober traveler? Um, and one thing is you're clearheaded, right? You're much more clearheaded than if you drink. And so it does open up a lot of opportunities of like trying new things and trying to find connections with local communities and being more present for, um, learning about other cultures.

So, and I also feel like a lot of people who. Especially if they're in recovery. Now, there's lots of other non-drinkers too, for various reasons, but I think people in recovery often have that feeling like they want to give back somehow. So I think like the whole volunteerism thing where you do some good for the people in other places can also play into the sober travel.

Right. And the sober travel also means less bathroom breaks. And that's always a good thing, especially depending where you are. You know, you can always find the nicest bathroom. But what I, I will say, you know, just for those of us listening who are not as familiar, what exactly is a travel writer? You know, what differentiates them?

I mean, some people maybe have never even heard of that. Oh, okay. That's a good point. So if you think about, like, there, there's a, there's a whole array from obscure blog sites up to really big travel magazines. And I've written for many of 'em from the obscure to the famous. Um, but if you've seen like a Travel and leisure would be one of the most famous, or there's like the Lonely Planet Web.

Side or photos, all the people that published those guidebooks back when people mostly relied on, um, guidebooks, right? Moon travel guide, rough guides, all of those would be travel writers who produce those things. So travel writer goes to a place, or sometimes you might write, like, I might write about things in my Portland area too, but it's kind of designed for, you're gonna visit a place.

What are you gonna do there? What kind of experiences can you have? So, um, also you've probably seen like blogs or people write about travel on a blogs, so it could be anywhere from. A blog to, um, you know, big glossy magazine. Right. Also, there's a lot of travel content producers who do podcasts or who are doing videos, and you'll see 'em on as influencers too, you know.

A hundred percent. We've seen a huge shift into the amount of people making, you know, travel content and the ability to do so, being much more easily accessible with phones, with all these inexpensive, uh, recording equipment and stuff like that. And of course people writing about it. So, on that subject, what are some of the coolest places you've been to?

I've been really lucky. I've gone to some really cool places. I've been to the Norwegian Arctic Asba, um, out there with, I've gotta see, I gotta see a polar bear hunt for a seal one time in the Arctic. That was really cool. Um, I've been to Jordan and I've seen some of the archeological things, air, like the Rose City of Petra and the Wadi Rum Desert.

Um. Let's see what else I've been to. I got to go to Guatemala recently and I was there for the day of the dead celebration and that was really cool. Wow. And then in the US, I mean, we have so much to see in our own country too. It's a beautiful, it, it's a beautiful country with so many different, you know, geographic zones and terrains.

So, um, even if you're, I don't know if your listeners are mostly American, maybe there are other places too, but if you're in the US. There's so many great places you can see in our own country too, without a passport from like raft in the Grand Canyon, or you know, hiking in a mountain or paddleboarding in a lake.

I tend to go for the nature stuff. I agree. You know, I grew up in New Jersey, which people don't realize is really quite the geographic landscape. 'cause you've got mountains and forests up north and you've got down south, you even have farmland in some areas. You have the Jersey shore it, I mean, that state alone, I got to try so many different things.

And then you look at most states, people don't. Often travel outside their hometown or they just, you know, label their state as boring because they've done everything in their hometown, but you know, just a few hours drive in one direction or the other. And you can find a lot of great things to do. And then that's without even leaving this state, you know?

And then if you leave the state, like you mentioned, there are so many. Amazing things to do and I, I think there really is a call to get back outside. You know, we have so many people spending so much time online and on, just on their computer, on their phone, and getting out and going in person is great, but for some people it might be an intimidating experience.

There's a lot of misconceptions about travel. What would you say are the biggest things holding back people from doing sober travel, especially those who are struggling with addiction? Well, the biggest one is fear of relapse because lots of times someone who is in recovery has made a comfortable sort of home nest at their house, at their home, right?

Like they have their support system. If they go to recovery meetings, they have that, or maybe they have a therapist they go to, or just some trusted friends that they have locally that they get together with for coffee or something like that. Um. Maybe they've taken all the alcohol out of their house, you know, you might have just made like a real safe zone, but then when you go somewhere else, there's so many unpredictable factors.

And those could be someone just like thrusting a drink at you. You know? Um, like I went to a hotel recently and the first thing they said was, hi, how about a margarita? And I said. Thanks, but what do you have that doesn't have alcohol? And they were just stumped. Like everybody went for the margarita, you know?

So like you have stuff like that, like people thrusting things at you. Um, and then you also have the idea sometimes like, I don't know anyone here. They don't know me. Maybe I could be a different person. And you know, that whole, like what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas attitude. Like it could be easy to think, you know, you can get away with something when you're in another place 'cause no one will know.

But obviously you will know. And that's, uh, that's the worst. Right. So traveling can isolate you from your support system. Mm-hmm. Your accountability system there, like we mentioned, there are a lot of anxieties of what if something goes wrong, how am I going to cope and deal with that? So what are some mitigation strategies for delayed flights, canceled flights for flat tires, for anything that can go wrong, these travel mishaps.

What are the best ways to deal with those that will prevent us from wanting to turn to our addiction instead? I always like to have stuff to do with me 'cause, so I do a lot of, I'm a self-employed person as a writer and I do some other word stuff like editing and proofreading. So I always have work with me on my laptop that I can do if I get stranded somewhere.

And then fun things too, like a book you wanna read or maybe you have games on your phone. Or, um, like a language learning app. Um, what else do you have people bring? You know, favorite snacks, like, don't get too hungry. Make sure you have some snacks. Um, and then if you're into spiritual readings, you can bring like your daily meditation book.

So just prepare like if the flights. It's gonna be six hours. Just imagine it ended up being twice that 'cause it delays and you wanna just keep yourself entertained. 'cause you don't wanna just start being idle and having your mind think too much about like, I'm bored. What am I gonna do? There's the airport bar.

Um, also you wanna prep your support system ahead of time. So even if you're not there in person, obviously you can text 'em or call 'em, you know, or get in touch some other way. So, uh, have somebody at home to keep the accountability that you're gonna check in like every day or every other day. Even if there's not a problem, we can just say, Hey, things are going well.

But just knowing that someone is expecting you to be accountable is gonna help too. Hmm. And then, speaking of accountability and just information, in addition to this episode, I wanna share also, you had the Sober Travel Handbook. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Oh, sure. I happen to have a copyright here.

Perfect. Just a cute little book with a pretty picture of the ocean on the front. And it is full of tips. For staying sober when you're traveling. And it has a lot of instances, like what if you're at a business network working kind of thing and everybody else is drinking? What if people keep pressuring you and asking you to drink?

What if you're going to a family gathering where everyone else is drinking? Um, and then in addition to those kind of like stress, stress kind of things, it also has a lot of stuff about like fun things you can do instead of drinking. And places you can go where alcohol isn't usually the focus. And then also the idea of kind of, um, a lot of people, uh, if you've been, if you've been, um, if you're in recovery.

Then lots of times you might not even really know what you like to do, 'cause you probably spent a lot of your time before drinking. Right. Or, or using other drugs and not developing interest. So you might just be kind of this blank slate, like, what do I do now? Um, so it talks a lot about trying out different things and seeing what you like and what you don't, and then kind of getting an idea of things you like to do.

Like I have certain, I have certain quirky things I like to do. And if I go to another city and I have some free time and I'm like, what am I gonna do with myself? They're always kind of fallback things. So I'll tell you a few of them. I always try to go kayaking places if I have a chance. Um, sometimes I go out for a run.

Um, then I, I love historic cemeteries. I look for like an old cemetery to walk through. I also love cat cafes. Um, and I like, yeah, yeah, because I'm, I'm obsessed with cats. Um, let's see, what else? And I also, uh, I'm vegan and I, if there's a place that has like any vegan ice cream, I always look for that. And I'm always, I'm also a coffee vegan.

Ice cream is really good. You know, I'm not vegan, but I as at least. The, the ice cream shop I used to manage, we made it with like a coconut cream base and I love coconut. So the vegan vanilla was great. Uh, and you know, I will say when this episode comes out, I'll actually be in Japan traveling and I'm gonna go to not a cat cafe, but a cap bar cafe.

So that's gonna be super neat to check something out. And, uh, they have different ones in Japan. They have a couple different animal cafes. Uh, you know, I've gone to the robot cafe. It's not as, it's cool, but it's not as. Uh, cute as the cat cafe. I will say that, you know, you can't pet the robots, but yeah, for sure.

I, when I was in, uh, Japan, I stayed at night in a hotel in Tokyo where the receptionists were all robots, and they were mostly robotic dinosaurs. So a T-Rex would check you, you in. I've seen clips of that place. I know what you're talking about. That's so cool. That was pretty cool. Although when you have a problem, like you're like, I'm out a towel, you're like, uh, the dinosaur doesn't care.

It's a little hard. Right. And that's actually one of the things when I was last in Japan, people underestimate the power of just walking around. Yeah. Obviously make sure it's a safe area to do so, but Japan is, is very safe, at least where I was. And I would just walk around and I just plotted a course using, you know, the maps app on my phone.

I just went from park to park. Not every park was a big grand park. Some of them were just a, a, a patch of grass. You know, I found out that what is. Qualified as a park on the map just is, is the label. But it was so cool to just walk around, no car, no timeline of where I'm going, where, you know, I just walked from spot to spot.

And along the way you discover so many hidden gros little places that you would've never discovered otherwise. I think we get so caught up in tourism and you gotta go here, you gotta go there. It's great to get the recommendations. But I think that little self-exploration, uh, just going out on your own or with a group of friends, whoever you're with, and just finding those little hole in the wall places can be such an amazing time that people really overlook.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite things is just walking around and I like, like if I go to a small town, especially that where you can walk most of the main parts of it. I just like to go and like look at everything and sort of just think about what it means and what brings this community together and what the problems are and what the fun things are.

Um, and Japan, when I got to go there, I was mostly in Hokkaido in the north and it's, it is really incredible, especially living in the US 'cause we do have, you know, certain dangerous things about cities here. But even walking around, uh, by myself as a, you know, as a female, uh, it wasn't at all scary at night.

Like nobody cared unless they were being friendly. Otherwise, you know, it, it was like nothing was any problem walking around there at night. And that was really refreshing for a change. When I went, I was in a more rural town and during the weekday everyone was at work. I was the only person that I saw for like the entire day walking around.

So that was like. It was almost a surreal experience. Like it felt like everything was abandoned, but there was, it was beautiful. It was sunny out. There was birds, you know, and there was like, at least in that part of Japan, I found so many little architectural finds, like just little pieces of art at these parks that were just like.

Where you can chain your bike up to. They had, like, they had built, instead of just having a flat, empty, you know, bike rack, they had built little statues of birds sitting on it. You know, like just little details like that that I found. And I think if you're in a place that is a little mountainous or hilly, that is, I mean, try to ascend and, and get a view, because that's what I did in Japan.

Like I went up. You know, this random mountain that you were allowed to, and I, I mean, I gotta see the whole city and the ocean. And I was like, wow. This is just, it's so peaceful up there and so enlightening and it is really refreshing. And, and that's important too, is because. A lot of people get so burnt out when they travel.

They plan, plan, plan, they're going to A to B, to C to D. You know, they just do not stop. And while that walking around sounds tiring, it was at such a different pace, uh, that it was really refreshing for me. And that was really important in the midst of, you know, all these train rides and going from restaurant to restaurant to store to store, to just take a step back.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like a mix of planned activities and free time. I feel like it helps to have some structure. If you go somewhere, like a few, a few can't miss places that you're planning to go, but then for sure to walk around, like you said, or to rest, or just because when you get there, you might find out some fabulous thing you hadn't heard about and you're like, oh, I gotta go do that.

So yeah, leave a little time, but I think it helps, especially if you're kind of newly sober. To have some stuff planned because too much time in your hands could be a little dangerous. And then do you have any travel plans coming up, uh, you know, within the next few months that you're excited about? Oh yeah, I do it.

I'm gonna sip of, I'm gonna have a sip of water. And just so you know, someone did point out recently on video that I drink all my water from a Moscow Mule mug, which I just like the shape of the, I didn't even know when I got it that, that's what the irony, the shape of it. But people are like, are you drinking a Moscow Mule?

I'm like, no, it's water. So. Well, you know, it's funny because my ship that I was on in the military, they had made these custom glasses for the command ball party where we were celebrating the birthday of the, of the creation of the ship. And they had these big glass mugs. Yeah. And it's like, you know, kind of like a Viking mug, but they're, they're glass and I drink everything out of it.

And so it's just so interesting. People see me like chugging water outta this big Viking mug. And you know, the only other place I know that serves it is like, if you've ever been to a Chili's restaurant, they do like the mug for your Water and, and Sweet Tea and everything. But it's, it's just so funny because it always looks like I'm drinking something heavy and it's like, no, I just, I really like this mug.

That's funny. I'm really attached to my special mugs too. If I can't find 'em, I'm like, I'm gonna thirst to death 'cause I can't find my cup, you know, instead of just using another one. Um, but where am I going? Coming up? Yeah. I have a few things planned that I'm, I'm going to do. Um, I'm also involved with yoga and I'm planning to go next month too.

A Yoga and Addiction, or a yoga and recovery symposium. At an astrom in The Bahamas at the Shivanda Ashram. So that should be interesting. There's gonna be some leading people who are gonna be teaching about, um, how yoga can help with recovery. So that should be really cool. And then I'm also planning to go to Fiji pretty soon, so that'll also be in kind of Islandy Islandy place.

You're gonna have to get some of that water at the source. You know, if you're familiar with the Fiji commercials, you gotta get some of that water at the source. I, I'll tell you, if, if it's really drinkable, there might be a sign there. You know, like, do not drink. Right, right. It's not, it's not what you think.

And then, um, I wanna also plug your website here where you have obviously as a, as a travel writer, a lot of different stuff that we can check out. I mean, pages and pages. What kind of stuff is on there? Like, what are you writing about really? Okay, so the things I'm writing about on my website are mostly to do with outdoorsy, sober vegan, uh, fitness and like wellness, like yoga and stuff like that.

So there's stories about places I've gone to or people I interview, or sometimes there's a product review about like, um, some kind of vegan running shoes or some kind of like a, you know, a yoga mat or something like that. So, yeah, I write about all those things mostly. And then I also have one of my favorite pages in there, which is far from full, but it's my, it's called, um.

Paddling in every state. So I'm on this quest to, uh, kayak or paddleboard in every US state in Canadian province. I have a long way to go. I've probably only gone to a third of 'em so far, but that's kind of a fun quest. So every time I go somewhere, I try to get in the water. And I have to say too, I didn't start kayaking or anything till I was in my forties.

I'm not like an especially good kayaker. So this isn't a quest like, um. I'm some pro athlete here, but it's something anybody can do and it's kind of fun if you have some, some idea of something you like to do and you try to do it wherever you go, just for fun not to be competitive or the best, because I think a lot of times that stops people from doing things and trying things that they think they have to be like really good and make it their like passion or something.

But you know, you can have fun hobbies that, um, you don't have to be the best at. I agree. I actually, so I, I'll play disc golf very casually. I'm not the best player by far. It is, uh, it looks so seamless and, and flawless and easy on tv. And then when you actually get that disc out there and you're trying to throw it and it just like flops to the ground a few feet in front of you, you realize those professionals got some kind of, you know, they, they are very talented.

But I like going out and checking out the disc golf courses just 'cause it gets me. Like you said, it gets me out and doing something where I'm walking around, I'm checking out different areas, right? I'll go look up their disc golf parks and then go there, play a casual game. I don't even have to finish the game.

I just go check it out. And then we look for a local restaurant, and I think kayaking a lot of people overestimate, kayaking, or underestimate themselves. I've been kayaking for a couple years. I love it 'cause you get to check out some places that you just can't get to by land. I think that's one of the cool parts is especially these areas that have a lot of really neat little island structures or different, whether it's the the marshes or Bayside, wherever you're kayaking, going down the river, you get to check out some cool spots you can't access otherwise.

And I think, like you said. You don't need to be a professional. A lot of times they have guided tours as well, but even if you're kayaking by yourself, it's relatively easy to do. You know, just, uh, don't, don't jump into the advanced stuff. Don't go like, you know, white river rafting and stuff that's different, you know, just gentle floating down the river kind of stuff.

But I think, like you said, having something, so maybe it's checking out. Maybe there's always a certain type of restaurant you'd like to check out or something. I remember actually it was interesting when I went to Dallas, Texas, the first, very first thing I did, which that is not a walkable city by the way.

It's huge. I walked 30 minutes in 90 degree weather in, in black jeans, soaking wet from. I was determined to go to Jack in the box. I'd never been before. I was born and raised on the East Coast and I walked 30 minutes through construction sites and, and busted up closed roads in Dallas, Texas. 90 degree weather.

90 plus, right? 'cause it was in the morning, so it was only 90 gets to 130 minutes straight. I walked to get. Breakfast all day. You know, what, can you think of it? How, how, what was your impression of Jack in the box? It, it was good, you know, um, I should have just gone to a closer one or, you know, arranged that differently, uh, rather than walk 30 minutes.

But honestly, I don't think. Any part of me could ever be convinced that it was bad because of what I had to sacrifice to get it, you know? Yeah. Uh, Inn Out was a different story. I, I landed at the LA airport and this coworker of mine said, we're going, let's go try Inn out. And, you know, it was not the, the journey.

Sometimes the journey makes the destination more than the destination makes the journey, you know? Um, and I'm actually going back, I'm going to Arlington, Texas for Military Creator Con in April and. That was the one thing I said, I said, I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go to Jack in the Box. You know, so, and it was actually funny if anyone's ever been to Denny's, I had never been before, and that was the first place I ate in Japan.

My, my buddy who I was visiting, he took us to Denny's, but it was like a five star, you know, fancy restaurant version of Denny's, but it was still Denny's and, no, the Grand Slam, just the irony that the first place I went to in Japan was, was, uh, my Denny's. Yeah, that's funny. When I was a kid, we used to go to the Jack in the Box all the time, so I grew up in San Diego and I'm probably twice your age.

So this was a while ago when, and they, I am sure they had different menu items, but uh, and it was way, it was before I was vegetarian too, so we used to love these tacos they had there and they were such an odd consistency. Like, I don't know what they were made out. It was probably a combination of like really cheap meat and texturized protein and some spices.

Right. And they were just like a pate, like they were all grounded, like they'd been blended together in these hard little shells. And my sisters and I just thought they were delicious. And we would eat those all the time. And I'm sure, I think they were so gross now, but at the time, they were just the best for sure.

And if you don't have a restaurant or sport, I encourage you people who go outta their way to find a Christmas store in every town to get an ornament or a knickknack, or some people do scavenger hunts. I know one thing I'd like to do, which I've seen is. You can get the outline of the United States as like a car magnet, and then you can get each state that you visited to put into that outline.

So you're slowly filling up each state that you've been to. Um, I know some people have like a wooden board in their house and they put a thumb tack on each place they've been to. So stuff like that can make it just a, a, a little further incentive to do something more ex exploring. Yeah, that's true. It gets us out.

Yeah. And so, um, I highly encourage everyone to check out your website. And would you say it's a good spot to find recommendations of places to travel to for people who are not sure where they even want to go? Yeah, it's, it's, it's one, I mean, there's many good sites. I would also steer people towards a site.

If you're in recovery or, um, long-term non-drinking, I would go to the sober curator.com. I contribute to that site along with about 40 other people, and it has a lot on it. It's, um, it's founded by. Really dynamic sober woman named Elise Bryson in Seattle, Washington. And it has a ton of listings, so we're putting listings on there all the time.

I have a, I run a retreat calendar there for, so for sober group travel kind of things. And then we also have listings for a lot of different cities. So if you're looking for something fun to do that doesn't involve drinking. Check that out. There's also a lot of Popp culture stuff, so it's like a lot of reviews about, um, different movies and al um, like movies and TV shows and music and how they approach the subject of addiction in the, in, in the movie.

So that's, um, that's a fun bite. Thus sober curator.com, it has more my, you know, my site's a little more humble. I put it together. I don't update it all the time, like I try to post something every couple weeks. So I appreciate people looking at it, but you'll really find a lot of good stuff if you go to the sober curator that's gonna have a lot of good resources if you're in recovery.

Yeah. And then throughout this episode, we've talked about sober traveling and a lot of different degrees from encouragement to accountability. As we wrap up this episode, what would you want the main message to be that people take away?

I would say. I would encourage people to go out and travel, but I would still tell you to be a little bit careful. Like I, if you are newly sober, you might wanna wait a little while. If you're feeling kind of iffy about things, you might wanna wait a little while. And also, you don't have to do everything like, um, there might be some trips that seem that you have a good feeling about if you're like, yeah, I think that is really gonna suit me, but you might be invited.

On another trip, um, like somebody asked me recently, what if your friends all we're going wine tasting? Well, that's not really something I need to do. I'm not, I'm probably not gonna enjoy that. Um, so I might say like, no, and wait for a different trip. Or it might be like some bachelor or bachelorette party where, you know, everybody's gonna be drinking a lot.

But you, I mean, I would only go to that if I was feeling really, really solid in my recovery. It was a really good friend and I knew that other people supported my decision. So you wanna kind of vet those, those, um, opportunities and be like, this one's good, this one isn't. So. I'd say go out there. But, you know, think about it a little bit and if you are going to anywhere that feels a bit dangerous, have an exit strategy.

Um, and say like, if this, you know, if this goes upside down, how am I gonna get out of here? So if you're driving, maybe drive your own car or know about, you know, have your Uber app or know where the airport is. Um, also if you're, if you can afford to have your own room. Then I think it's nice to, like, I really like to have my own space when I travel.

Yeah. If I am gonna share a room, I really wanna share a room with someone who's not a drinker or, you know, using other drugs either. So, right. Yeah. So think about those things. Think about, you know, you like, you wanna, you wanna give yourself the opportunity to grow and have a bigger life, but then you also wanna take some just precautions to keep yourself safe.

Just think about like how, you know, maybe you'd wear your seatbelt in the car, you're still gonna go, but you're gonna wear your seatbelt. Right. Don't test your sobriety. Know your sobriety. Know your limits. Know yourself, know what you can't handle. And worst case scenario, if you think it might be too much, then that should be your sign not to risk that, right?

Because you, and it's important to stay grounded in why we stay sober and what the risk is. And we have to know, for some of us, that risk was we lost our marriage, or we lost our relationship with our kids, or we lost. Tens of thousands of dollars. Always remember the risk and evaluate it to the reward.

Like you said, going to a wine tasting with friends, yes, it could be a good social time, but if it's going to lead you back into relapse, which is gonna cause you to lose all those friends, then it's not worth it. I, I think alternatives is always a good state thing as well to say, Hey, I can't make it to the, to the wine mixer.

You know, that's just not good for me. But I'd love for us to all go out a different time to, to mocktail hour or something like that. You know, that you can always find an alternative, uh, whether that's substituting that original plan or just making more plans, you know? And I think when you become sober, you find out who your true friends are, who respect your boundaries, and that's really important.

And it's important too. Travel with people who respect those boundaries. Very true. Very true. So Ms. Bergen, I want to thank you for what you're doing. I think it's something like you said at first people were like, what's sober travel? That that's what is that? You know? But it is something that many of us who are non-drinkers don't think about.

So what I ask as a takeaway for this episode is if you are someone who travels and you have people who travel with you, who are. In recovery or sobriety or maybe struggle with drinking, take this episode as the initiative to be a little more, you know, conscientious about their struggles. You know, we often realize and kind of stay focused on our own struggles with travel or what we can handle.

And when you're traveling with other people, it's important to think about them and what they can or can't handle and to communicate that because they're not always gonna tell you. So make sure you go outta your way to ask in a respectful manner. What is most beneficial for all people traveling in the party.

Yeah. And one thing, if you're planning an, any kind of event, if you're, if you're someone who's a, you know, a regular drinker or something, you can always be really more inclusive of the non-drinkers by just making sure there's something else that's, that's also delicious. Instead of had like, oh, you can only have a water or a diet Coke.

Like I was, um, I was at an event a while ago and I was really impressed that they had, they just put 'em out just like with everything else. It was like two signature mocktails that are special. Today. And that was just really cool. You know, it wasn't like you had to go up to the bar and be kind of ashamed and be like, what do you have that doesn't have alcohol?

You know, it was just right there. And that also encouraged, even people that drink, they're probably gonna slow down a little 'cause they'll be like, oh, maybe I'll alternate and have this drink too. And that's really better for everybody's health. Yeah, for sure. So again, we're gonna have those links in the description below for your website for the sober curator, and then where people can find your book as well.

I want to thank you for your time today. Oh, thank you so much, Mr. Whiskey. I.