Healing The Wounded Inner Child: Addiction, Trauma, And Codependency Recovery

In my first international in-person podcast interview, I sit down with author and professional drummer David Deane Haskell in Japan for an honest conversation about childhood trauma, addiction recovery, codependency, identity, and inner-child healing. Mr. Haskell is the author of five science-fiction books and Wounded Angels, a deeply personal account of connecting with the wounded versions of himself that remained frozen within traumatic experiences.

Mr. Haskell shares how losing his mother to suicide at four years old—and learning the details of her death at nine—created wounds involving abandonment, shame, dissociation, bullying, and difficulty forming relationships. We explore his experiences growing up with an alcoholic father, being treated as the family scapegoat, searching for safety through television and idealized families, and eventually turning toward drugs and alcohol. His journey later included a suicide attempt, professional drumming at Tokyo Disneyland, years of isolation, damaged family relationships, and finally beginning his sobriety journey in 2018.

We examine the central message of Wounded Angels: our destructive behaviors may originate as attempts to protect wounded parts of ourselves. Mr. Haskell explains why inner-child work is not necessarily about confronting or correcting those younger versions of ourselves, but listening to them, understanding what they were trying to protect, and determining whether those survival strategies are still serving us. We also discuss codependency, compulsive rescuing, emotional numbing, unhealthy relationships, body-based warning signals, twelve-step recovery, therapy, boundaries, and the complicated process of repairing relationships after addiction.

Throughout the conversation, I connect Mr. Haskell’s experiences with my own upbringing around addiction, bullying, family abuse, religious weaponization, and my continuing relationship with an addicted parent. We discuss forgiveness with boundaries, suicide prevention, the hidden pain behind apparently successful people, generational trauma, parenting after addiction, and why healing requires both accountability and compassion. Ultimately, this episode reminds us that while hurt people can hurt people, healed people can also help heal people—and we each have a choice in what we build from what we survived.

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, but this is not an as always episode. This is my very first international meeting in person. I've been on podcasts in Africa, Jamaica. I've interviewed people from Ireland and Italy, but this is the first time in person, in this very grand hotel room in Japan, we are meeting, to record, and I'm super excited about it. This is one of the things I was hoping to do while in Japan is get to meet some people, and this was totally God organized or some might say a coincidence that today's guest reached out to me, happened to say, "I'm an author in Japan." No relation, did not know I was in Japan, and I was like, "Oh my goodness, I just landed here like a week ago. We gotta meet up." And so here we are. Today we're gonna talk about so many different topics, all interconnected, and a, a quote I saw once that I really liked, it said, "It is hard to find healing when your inner child wants to be loved and safe and, you know, needs healing, but your teenage self is in rebellion and angry and wants revenge, and the current you just wants peace." And, we're gonna get into some of those topics today, specifically the inner child, and I'm excited for this conversation. And so mysterious reveal. I'm just gonna pass it over to you to introduce yourself. A brief overview of who you are before we get into the nitty gritty details. Like I said, we've got a lot to cover. And, you can attest to our listeners it's a sauna in here, so- Yeah ... we might have to take a break halfway through and come back. But, thank you so much for meeting me in person for commuting over here and making this journey. I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. My name is David Dean Haskell. thank you for having me. It is an incredible situation. I've been doing podcasts for, like, three months or so, pretty consistently. I'm talking about my books, my fiction and my nonfiction books. But I've never done in person 'cause I live in Japan. Right. And it's like somebody's in New York or they're in Europe or whatever. And I did reach out to you, and I didn't know you were in Japan, And you weren't that close, right? Yeah. And, and I was like, "You wanna get together?" And, "Oh, I'm gonna be on your side of town doing a marathon thing." And I'm like, "Oh, my God, I can't believe that I have, like, the chance to do something in person." So here- Right ... we are in person. It's great. And yeah, it is a tiny... If you come to Japan you'll know. These are... This is one of the smallest ones I've ever seen, which is awesome. But not the smallest. Not the... But one of, one of the smallest- But the smallest ... I've ever seen. But, you know, roll with it, you know? It's an opportunity to do a live thing, and that's really awesome, so thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. It's been three years of podcasting for me, and this is probably only my fourth in person, and it's always been a weird scenario. Like, first time it was in person wintertime. We went to go to this hotel lobby. They were doing construction. We had to sit outside with this... Right on a river, the wind just channeling down cold. My fingers turned blue- ... during the interview we were out there. And then second time was this old historical building, and it was not studio quality. And the lighting, don't even get me started about the lighting. And then- I guess that's it really. I haven't done many in-person- Another one ... interviews. Yeah, this one. Right. First international one. Yep. Mm-hmm. I recently did a special Japan to Jamaica. We interviewed from Japan to Jamaica, which you're talking about podcasting with a lot of East Coasters, so you're well aware of the time difference being kind of a pain sometimes. Yeah. I've been waking up at midnight, 1:00 AM, and especially for the podcasts in Africa and India, it's even worse trying to coordinate that than the East Coast. And then West Coast, they just say, "Listen, when you get back from Japan, I'll meet you," because they're all the way behind us. Oh. You know? Um- Well, yeah, I've never tried India or Africa. I've done... Europe kind of works, except that when I tell all my friends about it, it's 3:00 in the morning on the East Coast or whatever, but it works here and it works there. And the West Coast, yeah, I think, their kind of evening is coming into our morning, so I've been able to do that. But yeah, it's challenging. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot easier to do in person. I just took a train. It was- Right ... 30 minutes, boom, I'm here. I love it. Right. Yeah. Right. Like you said, three months. It's brand new basically to the world of podcasting, so what is kind of the mission with that? Right. I'm an author. I've written six books, five sci-fi books and then one, inner child healing book, which is- Right ... what we were talking about at the intro. And I published that book, a little more than a year ago, and was sort of trying to get the word out, but I really didn't want to do my own videos. I didn't wanna be the guy, you know, walk and talk and all that kind of stuff. Right, right. I didn't want to feel like a guru or anything like that, and I'm like, "Well, I'm a writer, you know? Just read my book," right? Yeah. But it doesn't work like that, and it's like you gotta get out there, you gotta get your voice out there, you gotta, you know, people have to see who you are and meet you and all that kind of stuff. So I didn't wanna do it myself. Mm. And I was trying to figure out what worked with my integrity, you know? Right. 'Cause a lot of that feels manipulative or feels like just- Yeah, yeah ... I don't know, salesy or whatever. And I was like, "Well, I can have conversations." You know, I don't wanna have my own podcast. Mm, mm. Because that's commitment that I'm not willing to do. I would rather just go to other podcasts and meet people. Right. Connect that way, and also form relationships, 'cause I got two more books coming out, you know, so I'm not looking for, like, a one-time thing. I'm looking to, like, meet people that I'm connected with and have conversations going forward. Right. You know, so right now it's sort of like, that period of... I think I've probably, at this point probably recorded, like, 20, and I think six or eight of them are already out, and most- Okay ... it's just, like, and I, I got a secret Learning the flow of it and all that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. Absolutely, all that kind of stuff. And sometimes it doesn't go well with the, uh- Yeah Technical difficulties, you know? Right, right. The thing where the live thing, the face-to-face thing is way better, so. Right. So. Now, I got to read part of your book. I got through 38% of it because I didn't get a copy until, like, yesterday basically, and it's been a crazy time, but I loved what I read so far. Okay. I would, I would liken it to, and not to compare any books or contrast any books, but it reminded me of one of my favorite books, which is Slaughterhouse-Five. Now, Slaughterhouse-Five, if any of y'all have not read it, it's a very famous classic book. Most high schools teach it not because of the content itself, but the style. Mm-hmm. So for those who aren't familiar with Slaughterhouse-Five, the chronological order is seemingly random. You jump between the past, the present, and the future because the alien species sees all the time at once in that novel. And so the main character gets, kind of all jumbled up and stuff, and so are you familiar with that book at all? Yes. Right. Now, with you, essentially what I've picked up so far, you know, like I said, I haven't finished it, but you're going to the personifications of your inner children, so to speak. Different ones, different ages. And as I was reading, you were walking us through- Now, I wouldn't even say confronting them, but having a conversation with them. Yeah. And trying to explore and understand what they need, what they want, and ultimately how that will fulfill you. Mm-hmm. You referenced it as, as shadow work. I read that a couple times. And so in that style, I think it's really interesting that instead of just saying, "Because of this or that," you made it into a personification, like a mission of I have to go meet all these versions of myself and talk with them. So is that exactly kind of a direct reflection of the process you went through? Like, how would you talk about... Or rather, I think we should back up. What brought you to the realization, like, "Hey, I need to heal my inner children," that the inner child, all these different wounds I have. How did you even get to that realization? Okay. Wow, there's a lot there. Yeah. And it's really awesome, first of all, because I do love Kurt Vonnegut. In fact, and I don't know if you got to any chapters with my dad in the book. I think you probably did, right? Mm. He passed away last year, so there was a- Oh ... very complicated relationship there. Yeah. I did talk to him two days before he died. You know, we had- Mm ... repaired a lot of the stuff. But he's a... And I had to give him a copy of Wounded Angels before I published it, 'cause he's so key in the book. Right. And kind of not asked his permission. Well, I did kind of ask his permission, like, "You know, I'm gonna publish this thing." And, he didn't read it before I published. He said, "Go ahead and publish. You can say whatever you want, and I'll read it." But then he read it, and it did hurt him. Mm. Because I was being very honest about, you know- Right ... growing up with an alcoholic dad. Right. And the pain and the trauma. So anyway, he and I went to see Kurt Vonnegut speak at my university. Wow. Yeah, he's- Oh, wow ... a huge Kurt Vonnegut fan. He gave me, not Slaughterhouse-Five, but some of the, um, the one with Grand Falloon. I don't remember the title right this minute. I only know... That's the only Kurt Von- I only know Slaughterhouse-Five Yeah, I think that's the only one I've read. But as far... Thank you for the compliment. I mean- Yeah ... to be compared to a great writer in any way is awesome. Right. I didn't write it that way on purpose- Mm ... but it was, the writing came out of the work. So the work started first. So I went through a lot of trauma when I was a kid, including my mother passing away. Mm-hmm. Which affected me deeply, and I was really, had difficulty forming relationships, and I was really dark, in a dark space as a kid even. Then it got worse in my 20s, 30s, 40s. Got into addiction. Just kind of like, I mean, life was dark. So finally I had to either die or get better. That's how it goes, you know? So- Right ... first I addressed the substance addictions. This was in 2018. And I'd already started writing, fiction, but I'd never thought about writing nonfiction. And then after that, addressing co-dependence, which was just as much, an addiction- Mm ... for me as drugs or alcohol ever were. Right, right. Or even more. That led to inner child work, 'cause if you look at the book, Co-Dependents Anonymous, unlike AA, and I'm not gonna talk about 12-step much, but unlike AA, Co-Dependents Anonymous talks about shame. Mm. Talks about inner child. Talks about resolving the, you know, childhood stuff, and shame being at the root of all addictions, which for me was very true. So I started doing the inner child work, and that was in 2021, and I did it for like a few years, and it had nothing to do with writing. It was just healing work that I was doing, like connecting with these parts of me that were frozen in traumatic moments. Right. I was trying to learn what they wanted to teach me, as you mentioned, like connecting. I'm not confronting but connecting. And they're very wise, my inner child. I think everybody's inner child is very wise. It's not like- Right ... I'm gonna parent you. It's not like that. It's more like, what do you need? What do I need to know? Right. About what happened, and the truth behind it, my truth, my integrity- Mm ... all that stuff. And then anyway, during that time, I had had a writer's block. I wasn't writing at all. And then that broke, in 2024, a couple years ago. Started writing the sci-fi again, and all of a sudden, the inner child stuff started writing itself every day. I didn't wanna write it. I was like, I don't- Mm. I don't wanna be a n- nonfiction... Well, I don't wanna be a self-help guy, guru- Right, right ... or a screw that. I don't, um, that's not me. This is my journey. I don't, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not any of that. I don't even wanna be. But it wrote itself. It's, it's like it took about six weeks. Right. Every day I was doing the work and writing the work at the same time, voice-to-text, so it was like as it was. And so that's- Yeah, yeah ... but, you know, jumping around, a lot of that's the, you know- Yeah ... I was just vocalizing what was happening, you know? And, it was written really quick, but then it took me six months to publish it because the inner child was like, "You kidding? You wanna put this out in the world-" Right "... and, like, be vulnerable?" And, and what you were talking about is something I've gone through as an author, which is we finish it- Mm-hmm ... and then we reread it, and we're like, "We're gonna change this, change that." Then we reread it, we're like, "All right, now we gotta change this and change that." And we become stuck on this cycle of wanting to perfect it. I mean, this is something a lot of people go through, not just with authorship and writing but with a lot of things, you know? We delay putting something out because we're just ne- we're... And the truth is we're never gonna be satisfied with it. That's just the truth. Mm. We will always find something to edit or to change or- You mentioned a lot, "I don't wanna expose this part of me or this side of me." Mm-hmm. And reading through your writing, it felt like someone was just talking to you. It felt very natural and real. It felt very authentic. It didn't feel like someone wrote this and articulated it and had AI tweak it to be the most perfect professional message. This was, like, that raw truth. And there's a lot of things that you talked about that I related to, because I came from... My father was a addict, my mother didn't love me. I had issues at school. And we're gonna get into a lot of... Like, every chapter I was like, "Wow, this happened or this happened." So I wanna start going back to, you mentioned your mother's passing, and I'm gonna pull out a little extra truth to that from what I've read. It wasn't just a passing, it was a suicide. Yep. And so let's unpack that a bit. Mm. Because you got so real with it, talking about... And I don't wanna spoil too much of the book, but- No, it's okay ... the way even, because of the way she had committed suicide, how affected you wearing tight clothing or, like, your whole piece about ties and suits. Like, so many people don't even realize how many levels a suicide can impact someone, not just in its happening, but how it happened. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it affected me to the core, and to this day. And I did do a lot of processing in the last seven or eight years, so I'm better than I was. Mm. But that was after decades of trauma. She died when I was four. I learned about how she died when I was nine. Right. And that, as I mentioned in the book, was the worst day of my life. It was- Right ... the next day. It was in school, in shock, and, having a shame attack, which is something- Mm ... I now know I identify as a shame attack, which I didn't know what that was at the time. Similar to a panic attack, but- Right ... but different at the same time. And, just broken and traumatized. Mm. And I wasn't getting the kinda aftercare that maybe somebody would need. But, you know, I don't blame my caregivers per se, but they fucked it up really bad. Yeah. Like, they hurt me. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on your podcast. Oh, yeah, you're good. Um- You mentioned feeling neglected, left alone often. Yeah. What was really powerful for me was you saying your father initially didn't wanna tell you how your mother had committed suicide. Mm-hmm. And you pushed, "I need to know, I need to know, I need to know." Mm. "I wish I didn't know." And that really was so relatable and human to me. Mm-hmm. You know, 'cause we wanna know, and then we're like, "I wish we didn't know," especially as children. Mm-hmm. You know, as children we're definitely curious about that. And I don't know at nine years old if you even understand what suicide is, you know? Like, it's- Mm ... trying to wrap your head around that and everything. I understood... Well, I understood it well enough to know that it was- Right ... you know, it was, uh... But I, yeah, I don't know. It's, actually, I can't say how much I understood it. Like, I don't remember that much from when I was nine. Yeah, of course. I remember things that were said to me, and one thing that my stepmom said at one point was, "Well, you didn't seem to care that much. You were just kinda like, 'Okay, whatever.'" And I remember that internal feeling, and I was like- Right ... I was dissociating. Right. And that no professional, and there was professionals involved. They didn't know what the hell they were doing either, so it's like- Sounds about right ... you know. I mean, and the thing about that is Coming out of that, it really kind of defined me. Mm-hmm. And it made me think, and one of the things I thought that day, the worst day of my life, is what are the other kids gonna think? What are they gonna do now? How are they gonna use that against me? 'Cause I was already being bullied, and I was already couldn't- Right, and you shouldn't even have to worry about that. Yeah, of course not. But that was back in the '70s. I remember teachers saying, you know, "Take it outside the school and go fight." You know? It wasn't like- Yeah ... I wasn't protected. And I wasn't tough. I was heavy and, you know, hated fighting. And just wanted friends, you know? But, I mean, the circumstances from, just really from birth made it impossible. It was like I never got the instruction book on how to make a friend. Right. And that led, that was all the way up until the last few years. I have plenty of friends now. Plenty. And, like, if I needed to make more friends, I know exactly how to do it. Right. I'd go find, find more friends. But for most of my life, that wasn't the case. And so her suicide affected me in that way. Like, you know, what am I gonna do now? Mm. You know, all this was already wrong with me, now this. They're gonna use that. They're gonna weaponize it. 'Cause, like, "Oh, your mother left you. She didn't even love you. She didn't like you." Right. You know? And, and did you, before any bullying happened, did you even feel like she, uh, abandonment. Do you feel like, "I wasn't good enough to stay for my mother to care for me," or, you know, "It was my fault," or anything like that? And I mean, did you ever find out why your mother committed suicide? Only secondhand. I'll tell you it was a very toxic family. Mm. My mother's side of the family had a history of mental illness. My aunt was schizophrenic and, bipolar. My great-grandmother was lobotomized- Wow ... way back in the day, so there was this secretive family history of mental illness and all that good stuff. Mm. Also, my mother had a child out of wedlock about 10 years before me. Right. So I might or might not have a half-brother somewhere out in the world. Or he might already be gone for all I know. Mm. I'm 55 years old. But, I think that affected her deeply. She was forced to give it up. They were a deeply Catholic family. Right. A lot of things that went down, and then She had severe postpartum. So I was taken away from her for weeks or months when I was an infant. Mm. I don't even know who fed me. You know, that alone is traumatic stuff. But, but that sort of got buried in my history. Right. And, so the thing about that is, she was extremely unwell, and it had nothing to do with me 'cause I was four, you know? But, you know- Mm ... for me it's just like, "If you loved me, why would you do that?" You know, "Why would you leave?" And there was a lot of rejection and abandonment feelings for most of my life. For sure, and then I wanna unpack 'cause, you know, I did read this much in your book, that your mother, because of the wedlock situation, believed that you were gonna be genetically cursed or come out deformed. Something like that, yeah. And I remember what shocked me most was you as a toddler- Mm ... in the crib with your feet shackled. Mm-hmm. And you talked about this medical device during that time period- Mm ... to prevent club feet. Mm. I was having a conversation with a woman the other day who was like, "Well, you know, children that age don't remember that much." We do, and it's weird though because it's not everything, right? Mm-hmm. But there's certain moments that just really imprint on us when we're babies or toddlers that we can remember and see so distinctly, and then the rest of the year will be a blur until another incident, and I think it's just really interesting what stays and what doesn't. Oh, yeah. And, that shame, I mean, we talked about shame, and your mother never did the healing of shame because of the wedlock it sounds like, right? I mean, when you said you were born healthy and she just couldn't believe it. She didn't wanna believe it. And so again, almost making it your fault, not meaning to, but the pressure that puts on someone to say, "Hey, I think that, you know, you're gonna be cursed or born wrong because of what I did in the past." Mm-hmm. Saying that to a child, and then again, I spoke recently about how the physical connection between mother and child and father and child during those years is impactful. In fact, there are studies now showing, like, how much impact the father's presence just outside of the womb during pregnancy can have on the child's development with hearing sounds and feeling and everything, so. Fast forwarding, well, you mentioned being heavy. Mm-hmm. And I remember reading an overeating, you had an inner child that was focused on, I think it was, like, banana bread and raisins, and- Yeah, yeah ... what all these... and this is the thing I wanna address, because you talked about the inner children. When you talk with them in your book, the personification of them, they all kinda say something loving, like, " I'm just trying to protect you. I'm just trying to take care of you." Mm-hmm. And so it almost seems like, the big journey is saying, "I don't need your protection anymore," giving that reassurance. And some of them require a certain amount of reassurance that is hard to give or, you know, require stuff beyond us. So let's fast-forward to one thing that you mentioned that really resonated with me, was you talked about The Brady Bunch. Now, that's before my time period. I've never watched it. I've seen clips of it. Mm. But I resonated with it deeply because I always compared my family to what you called the idealized family. Mm-hmm. Where there's loving parents, siblings, both sets of grandparents, right? The whole family, that classic family, and I didn't have that. Mm-hmm. And I always wished, "Why can't I just have..." And I did a episode where I talked about how this idealized family, which became a standard that's projected, can deepen the wounds of people who don't have it, ultimately. And I like that you said even though it's idealized, they still have their issues, but people focus sometimes so much on the good that they don't acknowledge the bad in comparison to what they're going through. Mm-hmm. And I loved how you talked about the escapism, and then how your father didn't understand why you would watch this show so much, this, you call it Boob Tube - Mm-hmm As he referenced. Yeah. And I really resonated with that, because I think a lot of us are consuming content like that. And now, actually, more than ever before, social media has put forward so many idealized, romantic relationships, families and stuff. So I'd love for you to speak a little bit about that, about the balance of the idealized family, what you actually have, what you're trying to achieve. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Absolutely. Thank you so much for being so thorough with the book too. I really appreciate. I can hear how it affected you, it impacted you, so I guess I did a good job and I'm... It's nice, validating hearing you talk about specifics. Yeah, it is. You know, I don't think I've heard about specifics from the book so much as today, and a lot of that, the infant stuff, that was one thing you talked about was from the crib. Right. This is all conjecture. It's just all, you know, interactions I had with inner child. I don't know what actually happened. Mm. I don't know what, what was done with my feet or whatever. I have a sense that I was a lefty and she was trying to force me to be a righty. Right. Which is weird enough, and I've really come to suspect that. But that's very common from that time period too. I really just suspect that. Like, I'm a drummer, and when I first started drumming, I drummed from the left, which is- Mm ... unusual. Like, why would that be? And yeah, I think, idealized families, okay, I'll say this, there are none. Right. I'm pretty sure at this point. I think there's more unwellness in this world than wellness. 100%. Even when people are well, they're still struggling. I think if somebody tells you they have it all figured out, they probably are missing something. I don't trust, gurus. I don't trust people that- Right ... even some of the, actually, I do like some of the mindfulness people. Eckhart Tolle I've always loved. I read his book, The Power of Now, long ago, and I was trying to apply it, but I was a deeply addicted, sick soul. Right. I was like, "Just let it go and you'll be fine." Became the power of later for you. It was totally the power of later. It was totally the power of later, but I like that guy, but he's shifting too. Like, he's got new stuff out the last year or two. Yeah. And he's talking about some of the stuff that we're talking about, which is like it, it does take time and also you might not- Yeah ... be seeing everything you think that you're seeing. So yeah, the idealized family doesn't exist, I don't think. I haven't met them. I've met some people I really thought were I mean, and with the codependency, I used to hero worship people in a big way. Right. 100%. Put them up on a pedestal and make them into like a Christ figure almost. Right. Like, you can do no wrong, and if I do what you want me to do, I'll be okay. I'll be validated. I'll be- Yeah ... safe and all that. Which didn't work out. So you know, I mean, that's, that's- Right ... and I don't ever want anybody to do that with me either. And if you're healthy, that doesn't happen. If somebody starts to try to get you to run their life, if you're healthy, you're gonna back away from that 'cause that does not feel comfortable for a healthy person. Right. That feels, might feel groovy for an unhealthy person. Let me run your life so I don't have to look at mine too much, you know? Mm-hmm. So all that is what I used to see as idealized. But for the Brady Bunch, I think it was really just, numbing a lot of it and, you know, 'cause the screen addiction thing, I mean, it's worldwide now. Yeah. And myself included, I'm doing that damn, those damn shorts all the time. I hate it. Right. But I do it. I hate it, but I do it. You wrote about- You know ... waking up, I don't wanna instantly grab for my phone. Yeah. And then still doing it. Yeah. Or trying not to. Still working on that. That's something- Yeah, yeah that we all definitely deal with. And many of us actually waking up in the middle of the night and grabbing for our phone. Mm-hmm. Did I get any new notifica- the, the, the fear of missing out has spread so abundantly. Yeah, yeah. 100%. And it's not... Yeah, absolutely. And so but there was the beginnings of that with TV. Which my dad kinda, he came from the generation where we'd had no TV. I went out and played baseball with my friends, whatever. And well, actually I don't have any friends, first of all, and maybe it was easy for you to make them, but I don't know. You know, so for me, like, my friends were on the TV. Yeah. And, , that family, and they used to say, my parents used to say, "That's so unrealistic," and this, my stepmom in particular. Right. Because fighting is realistic. Screaming and yelling is realistic. That's- Mm-hmm ... you know, that's her reality. Her family was extremely, toxic, and screaming and yelling at each other, pulling hair, punishing the kids, doing all this fucked up shit. Wow. Yeah. And, you know, hurt people hurt people. Right. You learn that. But, you know, her saying The Brady Bunch is not realistic, actually my life today is a lot more like The Brady Bunch- Right ... when it comes to calm, let's, okay, something's gone wrong, let's figure this out. Let's not- Right ... condemn each other. You know, even the parents can be wrong. Well, actually, the parents were always right, but- Mm-hmm ... in my life- Yeah ... the parents can be wrong too. Right. You know? Well, and you talked about that in the book. You wrote about how The Brady Bunch had their own issues. Mm-hmm. Maybe not to the big degree that some families experience. Mm-hmm. By the end of the day, it was the resolution and the conflict resolution and communication style that was the difference, and that's the thing. We see so much unhealthy communication in the world right now. Mm-hmm. In fact, you spoke about more people are unwell than well, and I agree with that. Yeah, true. Yeah. I noticed this firsthand because I guest on all these podcasts, and people always ask me, "Mr. Whiskey," you know, asking me about suicide prevention, about military matters, how the two were interconnected. And I said, "Here's the deal. We focus so much on combat-related PTSD, on military lifestyle. Huge factors, 100%, but they are additionals." Because the truth is, most people I served with in the military had a lot of childhood trauma. They came from homes of addiction, of poverty, of unwellness, and that's not why they joined the military. Some of them to escape it, sure, but a lot of them, that's just what they grew up in. In my generation particularly, you look at millennials, Gen Z, gen alpha, I don't know, whatever comes after Gen Z what , the newer ones- The psychopaths. Right, right, right. Oh my God, they're gonna be killing us all. And a lot of them are coming from divorced homes- Mm-hmm ... or financially arranged marriages, unexpected pregnancies, a lot of unhealthy communication. We've got so much inundation from mainstream media, social media, all these different sources telling us stuff. And I said, you know, when it comes to suicide prevention in the military matters, really it's just all these people never got healing. And here's the thing, we have so much focus and work out there right now for adults. You know, all these books, all these podcasts, all these programs, therapy. I said, "But none of our children and teenagers are getting them, and they're who needs it most." That trauma is most impressionable. I had a guest who called children sponges on a show, right? They absorb everything that's going on around them, and a lot of children are seen, not heard, you know? And I said, "How much better would the military be, or the workplace, or the civilian wor- adulthood, if before people left high school, or between high school and college or the work world, they actually got to do healing?" You know? I'm not gonna say should it be government mandated or school mandated, whatever, but I think at minimum, us as parents need to do some kind of role to say, "Hey, we focus on we're sending our child out to the world. Let's make sure they have the right mindset about dating and taxes and career choices." But we never say, "Man, is there anything that happened in their childhood that we should be wondering how it affected them, or anything I did as a parent?" And so I think we talk about, and I think you've referenced it as well, we've got just a bunch of hurt children running around, you know, pretending to be adults. And so I think it's really important. And one point you made that really stuck with me, and 'cause it, this goes back to you were talking about making friends. It's still difficult. Now there's cyberbullying in addition to regular bullying. Imagine going home and getting bullied all day- Mm ... on top of your family issues. It's a crisis for sure. You talked about a particular fight, so to speak, between you and a physically handicapped kid. Oh, God. Mm-hmm. And I really like that part, because when things went south, it became a blame game of blame the healthier person, right? The person who's not physically handicapped. Right. Because even though it was both of you not wanting to hurt each other, right, both of you had your own issues going on that caused conflict, but people automatically, you know, had them at a lower status quote than you, therefore you're to blame. And what you talked about was both of you were handicapped in different ways, and people focused so much on the physical handicap that they neglected to acknowledge your struggles and difficulties. And I think that's so important because so many people are, we're focusing on just what we can see. And we talked about, we referenced earlier, you never know what's going on behind the scenes, right? Even these people who look like they have their lives put together, which social media makes it look like a lot of people have their lives together, we don't know what goes on before the camera starts recording and afterward, right? Mm. There could be fighting. There could be financial crisis. There could be mental health struggles. And so I think that was a really important point, and I'd love for you to just address a little bit about that. And to make it clear, you don't just go around pushing down handicapped people. No, not great. That's what they made you- No ... they, that's what they tried to villainize you as. I know. Yeah. But, I think it's really important to see that- Especially in suicide prevention. I saw a great video the other day. It was these two guys running every day, and one guy seemed really depressed and didn't want to be there, and one guy smiling, talking to everyone, and he didn't show up one day. And the message was, suicide isn't always what we picture it to be, right? Yeah. And I've worked, I've dealt with this personally. I had people in the military who were going to commit suicide, and it wasn't the depressed guy next to me. It was actually the guy who qualified on time, was smiling, was talking to everyone. You can never see, and sometimes we focus so much on the visible rather than the invisible, and we don't take it into account. Yeah. To check in with the people around us is really important, and if somebody seems okay, yeah, they're not always. There's been times in my life I certainly seemed okay, and I wasn't. Yeah. I was scapegoated, in a huge way. That I was the scapegoat. If you look at those family dynamics they talk about- Right ... the champion or whatever, the one that gets all As, and then there's the one who fights. Mm-hmm. There's the one that's scapegoated. I was absolutely scapegoated, and always examined from, "What did you do wrong this time? Oh, and the reason you do things wrong is 'cause your mother died." And so there was an easy- Right ... easy way to say, "Well, maybe it's not your fault so much, but you need to do better." Mm-hmm. And yet, my dad wasn't looking at his drinking. My stepmom wasn't looking at her controlling patterns. Mm. Um, and, you know, and so on. As for that, the guy, he had a prosthetic leg, and his name is Mike from Medford. I'm not gonna name his last name. I don't even know his na- ... his last name, but if you're listening, Mike, I would love to talk to you, man, 'cause I'd, I would like to apologize to this guy. He was also bullied. We both were. Right. And so it became, for me, it's like, well, if he had the heat on him, the heat would be off me. I never meant to knock him down, though. He was running and I was trying to stop him, and I stuck my leg out, which kids did, right? Right. Which, and he had a prosthetic leg. Kids would do that all the time, and you'd kind of trip and then, "Oh, screw you." Mm. You know, whatever. But obviously he went down like a bag of potatoes. Right. And I didn't think that he would. I didn't intend that. Right. But then it was like, "You attacked that kid." And I was like, and the thing about that was, and I was talking to my sister about this at a certain point, what I apparently did, and I didn't remember this, my stepmom tells this story- Mm is I went home and I said, "Some other kid did that." And then to sort of gauge, you know. And she's like, "Oh, that's really horrible," whatever. And I think the reason I, I put it that way- Mm-hmm ... was I wanted to see like, you know, maybe you'll see his side of it or whatever. And, but no, it was, you know. And then she found out about it. And she's like, "You lied to me. You said it was another kid. How dare you," blah, blah, blah. Right. But I think we- You're trying to gauge it. I get it ... I really wanted to see like, you know, are you gonna hear my side of it? 'Cause I was- Hmm ... you know, this thing happened between these two kids. What do you think? Mm. You know? But man, I mean, that kind of thing, I do look back and I think I was just as wounded as him. Mm. But it was invisible. It was absolutely invisible. And on the bullying, cyberbullying, oh my God. I worry about my daughter. I have a beautiful daughter. She's an adult now, but still, she's on the internet sometimes. And I'm like- Right ... you know, stay away from that because I think I probably would've ... I couldn't have taken it as a kid. I even worry now. I mean, it coming- Right ... up as an author and a, you know- Yeah ... becoming kind of a public figure. I've gotten hate comments on YouTube- Oh my God ... and stuff. And yeah. It's gonna I know it's gonna happen. Yeah. I'm not looking forward to it. But like it's gonna be- You're gonna get that one star review from someone who doesn't like you- Yeah ... because of- Whatever ... not even because their writing is bad or the message is bad, but because of how it made them feel. Totally. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, or my views or whatever. Yeah. And that's just the nature of the world. It's very sad. Yeah. It's very sad. Well, you worry about that. You can't please everyone. No. And that's what holds us up sometimes, is we're trying to balance it. How can we make as many people... How can we please everyone? Mm-hmm. And no matter what you do, there's gonna be people who like you or don't like you. Mm-hmm. You know? I think of Yeshua, AKA Jesus Christ- morally righteous person who just went around healing, doing good, right? Even if you disagree with him religiously, and people hated him and killed him, right? Sure. And it's like, are any of us as holy or as healing as him? So what do we think that we could please everyone? There's never been anyone who has. Even- Mm-hmm ... God in the form of man, and even God himself, you know? Half the world renounces him and hates him. So, you know, there's nothing- That's- we could ever do. I mean, on that issue, it's funny that you mention it because, I used to call myself an atheist, right? And I'm a spiritual guy. I'm not in any particular denomination or whatnot. Right. But I hated God. I hated God for what he did to my mom. I hated God for the way he made me. And I didn't even realize that, but there was... I used to say, and I don't know if this is in the book, but I used to say, "There's three people I hate more than anything: God, myself, and my dad." Hmm. And I couldn't even give you one, two, three on that. Right. But I was in the mix, too. Yeah. I hated and disliked myself, and I hated God for that. So yeah, I mean, that's exactly what you're saying. It's like you're not gonna please everyone. 'Cause to me, like now, like higher power, God, whatever you wanna call it- Right ... a potential in my life, a very loving, presence. Right. So, but I get it. That, that- I get it. I get it ... back and forth is in the book pretty, pretty well as well. Yeah, definitely. You talk about- Mm-hmm ... everything that causes you to have doubt still with God or, or- Sure ... this or that, the struggle and- Mm-hmm ... trying to bring God to hurt parts of you especially. Yeah. Trying to have that conversation about God- Yeah with those inner children who are hurt. And one thing, you mentioned your daughter, and what I liked was that you hold yourself accountable in the book 'cause you talk about your father called it the boob tube, right? Mm-hmm. You watching The Brady Bunch, but you in the book you're like, "But, Dad, you were watching sports. I mean, why, were you so invested in these other people's lives, right? Playing sports?" Mm-hmm. Isn't that a form of escapism as well, right? Sure. And then you talked about your daughter watching anime, and, uh- Mm-hmm ... we're here in Japan, so you know what I'm saying? And you unintentionally kind of, not to the same degree as your father, but kind of judging, like, "Why are you watching this stuff?" Or- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... you not saying, "I wonder if it means to her what The Brady Bunch meant to me." Mm-hmm. , And I'm glad I read that because when I have children, I'm sure... 'Cause I look at some of the TV shows now that children are watching, I'm like, "What is this stuff?" And you do need to be discerning, 100%, because- Mm there's a lot of, for lack of better words, bull crap out there that's not good for your kids to watch. Yeah. But it definitely helped me think like, "Yeah, I wonder, if I look at it, is this show to them what that show was to me?" Putting it into that empathetic perspective, that, that really resonated with me what you wrote about and the idea of- You know what? I can't be like my dad. And I wonder if my dad was judged for his actions by his dad, like you talked about the generational cycles. Oh, God. Yeah, and I hate getting called out on that too- ... 'cause it's like, oh man, I just did what... And I mean, I lived that in my life. Yeah. I had an alcoholic dad, and I was an alcoholic dad. Mm. So beyond that, the criticisms, which are- Each one is hurtful, right? Right. But then talking about escapism, my dad was drinking. Mm-hmm. What more escape is that? Right. Right? 100%. It's like, "So I can't watch TV, but you're having a whiskey." Right. Which one of us is, you know, wrong? But the thing about that is I do try to check myself, and I do- Right I find myself doing that with my daughter. And but we have a... Our relationship is amazing. I love her. Mm. We had lunch together. She's, she lives down the street. She is a very wise, very cool person, and I'm not just saying that 'cause I hope she watches this show. But the thing is, you know, healing takes two also. Once you break that generational trauma, and- Right ... I did break it, she worked at it just as much as I did, and she didn't have to. Mm. She had every right to say, "Get out of my life"- Right ... at age 14. Mm. 'Cause that's, you know, I harmed her, until I stopped drinking, and even as I were- Right ... you know, still healing. Yes. And I still am capable of harm. We all are, you know? I have good days and bad days. But at the same time, I was working towards healing conversations, healing the relationship, and so was she. I tell you, the first trip we ever took, after I got sober, we went up to Hokkaido for eight days. Mm. And we were fighting like cats and dogs the whole trip. And like, and I could tell we were both trying not to too. We'd like- Right ... ease, ease up the fight and make up, and then 10 minutes later, some other thing would flare up. Mm-hmm. And it's just like we couldn't stand the tension in that relationship, but we were both invested in fixing it and healing, and she's my kid. I'm her dad, you know? It's really hard to throw that away, no matter what's- Right ... no matter what's happened. So I have all the, gratitude in the world for the work that she did- Mm ... 'cause I owed that to her. She didn't owe me anything. Right. It's never a kid's fault. Well, and so in my situation, my father's still addicted to drugs and alcohol and women and doing a lot of escapism, a lot of all kinds of bad stuff, and I'm the only child of his who has not abandoned him. Yeah. My sister said no. And he's hurt all three of us, me the most actually, but, you know, I don't say that as bragging rights for staying. But for me, working in addiction recovery, interviewing hundreds of people- Mm-hmm ... I think you have a choice as a child of addiction. You have, you have three choices really. You leave. Mm. You stay in and enable, or what I've learned to do the hard way, it was not easy, was forgiveness with boundaries, right? Mm-hmm. So I used to enable him, and I used to let him use me like a doormat, and it was really unhealthy and harmful. There came a point where I've set boundaries, and I've had to abandon him on holidays because he was not sober like he said he was, or if he drinks too much, there's certain points where I won't see him or cut off contact, but it's never 100%. You know, if I have to wait for him to heal- Or to sober up or whatever it is, and I think as children, we have a choice to try and understand addiction and the struggle of our parents. My sisters have never tried to understand my dad's pain. Mm. But I've sat with him and I've had conversations, and I know he was a police officer for 25 years, and I've interviewed a lot of first responders, and people think of police, they think of nowadays this police brutality and just traffic tickets. Mm. But I've talked to my father, I've interviewed people on the show responding to suicides, homicides, fighting criminals sometimes at their own physical expense, you know. Mm-hmm. My dad has had to perform CPR on toddlers drowned in lakes. He's had to move dead bodies, right? As a first responder, there's a lot more to it. So that on its own is a traumatizing life. Combined with stuff from his childhood, because we all have stuff from our childhood, and then, you know, the passing of his mother the same time he retired, which was a huge milestone, really messed him up, and I've gotten to explore the depths of his pain and understand how powerful addiction is- The desire of an addict to not want that lifestyle, to want to be better, but to still relapse. I mean, you, I'm sure you, you know, you struggled for years. You understand you can want to get better and, and relapse, but it doesn't mean that you no longer want to get better, right? You can still be pursuing it and failing along the way. Sure. And my sisters, which are his daughters, gave up on him and I haven't. And they asked me even, they said, "Why do you still talk to Dad? He's a maniac. He's crazy. He's this, that." And I said, "Number one, he's our dad." And I said, " and titles and blood relations shouldn't define everything," right? Because there are unhealthy people in our lives who are family. But I said, "He's our dad. He's a human being." And I said, "We are called for forgiveness." You talk about unconditional love, showing the love and forgiveness that God has shown us to people in our lives, which is hard for us to do sometimes. And I said, "I also have hope because I've interviewed people on my podcast who are addicted for over 30 years, over 40 years, who didn't get sober until they were in their 70s. It's never too late." Mm. And I said, "A lot of addicts lose hope in themselves. How much more important is that we have hope in them?" Again, with boundaries and protections. And, that has to be their choice. I can't convince them. But, so I understand. And to see your daughter pursue that, I don't know how much she understood about your addiction, or did you ever even have, like, a conversation with her about addiction or anything? Or- Oh, all the time. Okay. All the time. It wasn't, like, an unspoken thing ? No, no. You mean when I was actively in it, addicted? Yes. No, after I got after I quit. But beforehand, I mean, obviously she knew. No, but I didn't do it myself. I didn't do it myself. Or... Okay. But yeah, obviously she knew. But the funny thing, she, we have talked about it and her feelings at the time. I've asked her what I've done that harmed her so I would know. Right. Some of it was done, as I was intoxicated or didn't even remember. Mm. And she told me some things that really shocked me that I'd done it. But I would also say, This blew my mind, 'cause I was, I started a little bit late actually, because, I was drumming. Mm. So I'm a professional drummer. Right. I actually did a bunch of, clinics in Indonesia last year. I have a great- Oh, wow ... time. Used to drum at Disneyland down the street here. Oh, okay. And, so you know, for a while that saved me. You know, I didn't need to turn to, like, drugs or alcohol. I was able to sort of like manage my life with the drumming. But then the substances sort of like- Right ... pushed that out. At that point I think I was just like straight out gone in my 20s, in my 30s, and into my 40s. That's what I would have told you. Mm. And there's evidence all the way along the way. But she said she thought at some point that I suddenly... She said, "You seemed okay until I was like 10." Mm. "And then you seemed to... Then I started noticing it, and you seemed to get worse." And I don't think that was the case. I think I was just able to hide it from her- Mm ... for that long. So I was able to like be in the other room and put on the fake face or whatever. Right. And then at a certain point when she gets old enough, just like I was asking about my mom- Mm ... and she, I think she said around 10, I couldn't hide it anymore. Mm. She's getting older. She's walking in the room. She's seeing what I'm doing, so oh, s- okay, now I'm not trying to hide it. And now, now she suddenly thinks I suddenly ramped up. Okay. But I don't think that was the case. I think I was just hiding it successfully until I couldn't. Mm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I will say sometimes, so opposite in my case, I mean- Or rather, my father, it's, it's typically exponential too. And- Yeah, yeah ... I will say, there was a turning point of my father retiring and his mother passing away at the same time, and he saw her every single day, so. Mm-hmm. You know, and in retirement, after 25 years of service, for any first responder, it's a huge deal, and military. Mm-hmm. Many of them will, a lot of studies show that they'll pass away within the two to three years after retirement if they don't get a new identity and hobby or something to ground themselves. A lot of them- Yeah ... just pass away, especially from addiction, right? Because their identity gets so anchored to who they were in service for that long. And, I've had a lot of episodes on that, on the importance of identity outside of military and first responder. The thing is, it's such a more ingrained identity than working at the office per se, because you live at the office. Mm-hmm. You know, you work at the office on weekends and holidays and stuff, and it's more, the military isn't just a career, it's a lifestyle. Mm-hmm. And there is a balance to it and you can separate them to a degree. But all that to say that, yeah, I remember it was like a turning point, for my father, where it did get worse. Mm. Or he was hiding it less. But my father for many years was a functioning... And, to your daughter's point, there is a age where you start to realize stuff. Yeah. There came an age where I realized, oh, my dad isn't addicted to drinking Gatorade. He has vodka in the Gatorade bottles. But growing up I said, "Oh, my dad really loves Gatorade." Every, every boardwalk, every movie, every thing we go to, he's always drinking Gatorade. He had vodka in it. We, I would have never known as a kid, but there came a certain age where you see him pouring it into the bottles or- We go out and he's like, "Hold on, I gotta take a break," and you, you find him with the airplane bottles. Yep. You know? So I think it is a thing too where it seems to get worse, but it's because now we're old enough to pick up and notice that stuff like you mentioned. Yeah. And then you talked about drumming. Mm-hmm. And I wanna relate that, this percussion work, so I'm gonna bring it back to piano playing- Okay because I read about that. Yep, yep. That really resonated with me as well, and I think this will resonate with a lot of people listening. Mm-hmm. If only you applied yourself. You talked about hating those words. I hate those as well because the connotation with them is people assume that we're not applying ourselves rather than we don't wanna be doing this. And I think there's a huge thing to understand there- Mm-hmm ... when it comes to, we've talked about parenting and forcing your children to do sports or instruments, rather than guiding and leading by passion and them wanting to do something. Mm-hmm. And my life is a great example. My parents came to me and they said, "Son, you gotta do a sport." I said, "Okay." They said, "What sport do you wanna do?" I said, "I'd really like to do hockey." They said, "No. Too dangerous, too expensive. You have to pick a different sport." And I said, "Well, I really wanna do hockey." They went so far to discourage me as to drive me to their adult friends' houses- Mm-hmm whose children played hockey, to lecture me on how expensive and dangerous and timely practice is, and they wished their kids never did it. And- Yeah ... that far to convince me. Then they signed me up for lacrosse behind my back. Oh, man. And I said, "Lacrosse is also expensive and dangerous. This doesn't make any sense." And I missed the age cutoff or something by a day or so. I didn't... You know, they said, "No sports. Now you gotta be a band kid, so pick an instrument." And I said, "Well, I'd like to play guitar. It's pretty, portable and you can play it anywhere, and you could do from faith music to country to romance. It's pretty versatile." Yep. They said, "Too many people play guitar. That's too common. You'd be like the everyday average Joe. You gotta pick something else." Said, "Okay, I'd like to learn piano, be a classy gentleman. Very romantic, nice places." " That's too common. You gotta pick something else." And so I ended up playing the violin you know? Can never make your parents happy apparently. But all that to say- It's not just about sports or instruments or grades, it's if only you applied yourself. And there's a couple things with that. One, you're assuming that I'm not applying myself, which if you are, can be a huge insult and shame. It can bring a lot of shame. Or two, you're trying to force such a lifestyle on me. So when it came with you and the piano, you mentioned briefly in the book that it actually made you the cool guy for a little bit. Yeah. Because, you know, you impressed everyone and then, you know, it goes back. And I love your whole analogy of being on stage. Everyone's, not forced, but it's hard for them to not give you attention or to ignore you. So let's unpack that a little bit, especially your view on the not applying yourself. Yeah. Thank you for sharing some of your life too. Mm-hmm. And I'm a little sad hearing it. It sounds like- Mm ... you were being controlled is my guess. Oh, yeah. That would've made me crazy, and it sounds like it made you crazy. Hopefully the violin was cool for you, you know, in the end or- It was until- You don't sound like a violin guy. You know, I could see the guitar in your hands. I could see the piano maybe, but- Right, right. Yeah. But I will say I was a violin prodigy, actually. Oh, okay. It turned out, I was the new student at the v- private violin group. Okay. And after just a few days, I was outperforming their star violinist. Nice. And I had a natural gift for it, except I would write letters under the music notes. I didn't know how to read music, so I would write the letters and I would, um... But I was doing great, and then it came to a moment where they had a talent show, and I was gonna play My Heart Will Go On, Celine Dion, on the violin. Mm-hmm. My music teacher said, "Well, by itself, you know, it's kind of lackluster. Let me play the piano with you at the talent show." I said, "All right." And we go to perform. She grabs my violin. I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't try to tune it or mess anything with it, you know, 'cause it's structured very well. I don't know how to do that stuff yet." Mm-hmm. And she messed with it and actually two strings broke. Oh, man. And I had to go up there with a broken violin, and she played the piano so much louder with a microphone that it was just a failure of a performance. And I've actually never played since then. Oh, man. No. Because one, my violin was broken, then my violin instructor moved away, and I had a nice tiger stripe wood, violin as well, but- Wow. Yeah. For, just to mention briefly, the controlling household. Yeah. My, my parents actually picked my friends and enemies for me. Wow. Because I remember, I'll never forget this, I was in a private school. It was a corrupt Catholic private school. And actually, to go back to your point, we had a new student came in when I was in fourth grade. He was in third grade, but he was so smart that he would take fourth grade math with us, and then he skipped a grade and came to our grade. Mm-hmm. And he began to bully people. Okay. And it ended up being an agreement where everyone- his new best friend was my best friend, and he stole him from me. So me and this new kid had beef over that, and he made an agreement with everyone he bullied. "If we all bully Mr. Whiskey together, I won't bully anyone else." Oh, man. And they made an agreement. You were talking about agreements, and even with the handicapped kid, if the heat's on him, less heat's on me. They all said, "All right. We'll join together to bully Mr. Whiskey so that this guy's not bullying us." Right. Mind you, by this time, each year at that private, corrupt Catholic school with wicked leadership, it got smaller and smaller. Mm. By the last year, I think there was only six other kids in my class for the whole grade but when it's five or six against one, that's a big ratio. Mm-hmm. And teachers didn't understand, and, you know, you can't ex- you try to explain stuff to teachers, and they just say, "Oh, kids are just being ki-," or they just so... Oftentimes our parents or teachers are dismissive of stuff because they're like, "Oh, kids just make a big deal. They exaggerate." And I don't know, for me, what I've been through, and I imagine with you, what you've been through with your daughter, if one of my kids came up to me and said, "XYZ is happening," I at least, I'm grateful that I'm more inclined to believe them, 'cause I'm like, "Hey, some of the stuff that happened at school," especially you talked about outside of school grounds- Yeah but it's school people. People wouldn't believe, that this was actually happening. In fact, I interviewed a gentleman the other day. When he was 14 in high school, him and these other guys went to a strip club in Mexico, gave money to a person to get them drugs. Person didn't come back. They kidnapped another person and held them hostage to get the drugs and money. Wow. And th- they were in high school. You know, sometimes people are... That's why I'm like, you know, but my parents were dismissive of it, this and that. When I transferred to public school- Mm-hmm ... I was dreading it. My father had painted this picture that public school was- The worst ... a hedonistic war zone, right? And blah, blah, blah. But I transitioned great. Everyone was like, "We got a new student." People were like coming over to my house. Made friends instantly. Yeah. I go home. I tell my parents, I'm like, "Hey, I made all these new friends on the first day. They want me to come over to spend time with them, get to know them." Mm. My dad said, "No. You're not allowed to talk to any of those people. I've arrested some of their parents, or I've dealt with some of their family members." And he projected what parents did on- onto their children, which is wrong. Mm. You know? Yeah. I wasn't allowed to be friends with them, and at that time, I didn't know how to explain it. You know, as a kid, I didn't know how to say, "My dad said I'm not allowed to be friends with you," right? And so it ended up we, I became enemies with everyone who wanted to be my friends. Right. And there was also times where I would get death threats from people. I never met them before in my life. Mm-hmm. "Your dad arrested me, put me in juvie." Oh. Right? Mm-hmm. And the blame came onto me that my father arrested them for doing some criminal action that they shouldn't have been doing. Mm-hmm. And I grew up in a household where people just hated me by association of who my parents were. And I've talked to a lot of first responders now, and there's, like, this unspoken rule that my dad didn't follow. Don't be an officer in the town you're raising your family. Yeah. It's just- It's not safe, number one. Mm-hmm. It's kind of awkward, you know? Like, I met a friend once for a drink at a bar who was, he worked as a prison guard, and he leans over, he's like, "Hey, don't, don't, don't look or anything. There's a guy at the bar that I had kind of spit on and kicked when he was in prison, 'cause I liked to bully the inmates, and he's sitting at the bar right now. He got released." Let's get out of here. I was like, "Dude, why am I always associated with some kind of person like this? Why does..." I said, "I, I had nothing to do with this." Mm-hmm. He goes, "I know." And, and he was a bad person, because he became a prison guard- Mm ... for the sole purpose to physically abuse inmates and get away with it. Some people do, yeah. He, this is what he said to me. He goes, "I get to look murderers and serial killers in their eyes and tell them I'm gonna, you know, pipe down their mother tonight, and they can't do nothing about it." Right. I said, "If these people escape, man, I don't know who you are. I've never met you. I'm gonna say you bullied me, too." That, you know, I'm gonna make up some backstory. But, so yeah, I came from a very controlling, abusive house. So I remember only ever snuck out of the house one time- Mm ... to meet a girl, just to walk her dog with her down the street I lived on. Mm-hmm. My dad went out in a cop car to find me So- Wow. Yeah, yeah. So you, you, you mentioned, you were like, sounds like controlling, abusive household. It was. Yeah. And this is on top of domestic violence, sexual violence, emotional verbal abuse, weaponized religion. You know, we talked about shame, and unfortunately, so many people are against religion or faith because people weaponize it to shame others. Sure. To put other people down. Yeah. And so, yeah. That's another... Yeah, religious abuse also. Oh, yeah. Sorry to hear all that. I jokingly say It's like I went to a restaurant, and I was like, "I'd like to have one of everything, please." Mm. Only it wasn't a dessert menu, it was an abuse menu. You know? I was like, "It's the Chili's Triple Dipper." But, I think it tends to go like that ... yeah. I mean, it tends to go like that 'cause abuse is abuse, and you, you know- Yeah ... looking for, vulnerabilities, right? Sometimes- Yeah ... it's verbal, sometimes it's physical. Well, and- Sexual, it can be ... my parents had never healed from their childhood trauma. You know, my mom had dealt with sexual abuse, racism, all kinds of stuff. Mm-hmm. My father had his own relational issues and stuff, and so, I mean, you talked about your dad- Mm ... with addiction and stuff, and I mean, obviously there was something there that caused him to go into that lifestyle, and I don't know if you ever had that conversation or unpacked that with him. Like I said, I didn't finish your book, so. Yeah. No. That's not in the book, but I have talked to him about some of that stuff. Because it was a little weird, because that, my dad's side of the family seems, on the face of it, pretty normal. And I think he was the black sheep or the scapegoat. So- Mm you know. But I have come to realize, my grandmother's in the book, who I loved very much, and she was my mother figure after my mom died. Mm. But, I also think that was my first codependent relationship. Mm. Because, not because she was doing anything on purpose, but she was, like, telling me about her, feeling bluesy or something. She used to say that to me, and she would be crying and stuff. Oh. And I was little. I was a kid. It's like why are you putting these adult things on a child? Doesn't make sense. Why aren't you talking to peers or whatever? Mm. Yeah, that was weird, and not okay. But then that, that got into sort of a trauma bond kind of thing, was I have to protect this adult. Right. And then, but I would feel if... then I felt like a burden if I asked, "Oh Gram, I need some money," or something, or, "Gram, I need this or that." Mm. And it's like, oh, you know, she would do it, but she would, you know, say, "Oh, we, we need to take..." You know, whatever. She, I started feeling like a burden, everything that I did. She had lived through the Depression, right? Is that the same- She, yeah, she's the one that taught me all about- Yes, that was- ... financial insecurity. She, oh my God, it's, I'm still to this day working on that- Yeah ... that crap, the whole, you know. You're around my dad's age. Yeah. And his grandma had lived through the Depression as well. Yeah, yeah. And he talked about her penny pinching because of the paranoia- Yeah ... that they were gonna lose everything again. Yes. And I remember reading that and I said, "Oh my goodness, my great-grandmother was the same exact way." Yeah. I think I might be breaking the cycle. I bought some SpaceX a couple days ago. We'll see how that goes. Yeah. I'm already down, I don't wanna, I don't wanna tell too many people- ... about that shit. But no, I mean, that to me, like it seemed healthy on the surface, right? Mm. But in the end I'm like, "Yeah, that didn't seem too healthy." And then my dad did tell me some stories. He was, there was four, but my uncle came much, much later, so there was basically three, older sister, my dad, and younger sister. And according to him, my grandpa was never around. He was working three jobs. Mm. And, the two sisters would both, bully him or, you know, gang up on him. Mm. And then my grandmother would take their side. Mm. So it was three women against him. Right. That was his childhood. And, you know, I don't know the extent of which, the extent that they were doing harm. He didn't talk about it that much. Right. Quiet, quiet guy. Yeah. But we did talk about that stuff and that was, a blessing for me because I was able to, do enough of my own work, and I think he was trying to. He never got well. Mm. He did stop drinking because of major health problems, which according to some theorists there's heavy drinker versus alcoholic. I don't know how I feel about that sort of thing. Oh, okay, okay. If you wanted to technically... But whatever it was, it was, you know, an abusive drinker that harmed me, so. Well, you- Yeah ... went through addiction later on. Yeah. Did that help you understand him better? Yes, much, yes, exact- totally, because I did a lot of the same things to my own kid. Mm. And then, and, or worse. Mm. And then I was like, oh, yeah, I can, I, that, I think about my sister 'cause she's much, she was much more unforgiving- Mm when we've talked. And as far as I know she hasn't had any substance addiction issues or anything. Mm-hmm. I think once you've gone through some of those same things you can start to see. Like my dad used to be a guy who used to always say, "Oh, I'm comfortable in my own skin. I'm just as good as anyone else, ha ha," you know, but he, he reeked of discomfort. Mm. Just like I did. Yeah. And when I look back, I'm like, I don't think that he believed what he was saying. I think he was just trying to say it. And I would try to say it, and then I'm like- Right ... no, that's not true. Well, and you wrote about even as a child how his sighs before and after work affected your views on work. You know? Like, the book kind of opens, "I hate work. There should be no work," you know? Like, because your father said, "Oh yeah, work is fine," but he, the heavy sighs- Yeah ... expressed differently, and I think that's powerful. One lesson that you just shared that's really important, with your grandmother is- The difference between this relationship is set up so that I can share this information, but does that mean I should share this information based off the level of the person receiving it? You know, just because someone is a trusted and close person who you can express these things to, does that mean they should be receiving that or how it will shape them? In your case, as a child, maybe your grandma should've been talking to you about this stuff. And actually, there was a guy on my podcast who was saying, "Sometimes, like, you just need a guy friend to share some stuff about that you shouldn't burden your wife with," right? You know, not because you don't trust her or love her or because she doesn't have great insight, but because some of that stuff, like a lot of the first responders, they get home from work and wife is like, "How, how was work?" "Oh, it was fine, just a regular shift." He doesn't wanna say, "Actually, you know, I had to arrest a guy who," and, and this is a real story, "took a spoon, scooped the eyes out of an old lady, and made her eat them." Right? He doesn't, he goes, "I... Look, I can tell my wife about that stuff, and she'll comfort me and talk to me. I don't wanna have to burden her with the atrocities of this world. I don't want..." Same with my kids. Sure. You know? So I think there's a level of- self-awareness, social awareness that you gotta apply to, like, because this relationship can handle this, doesn't mean it should, right? I think that's an important lesson, especially when communicating with children and teenagers. And we see, actually, I had a episode not too long ago about when parents become best friends with their children to a degree that is unhealthy. Mm. You know, there's an unhealthy degree of sharing or looseness of boundaries and stuff, or enablement. Mm-hmm. You know? In fact, a gentleman shared, his dad bought him a prostitute for his 16th birthday and said, "Welcome to manhood," and the path that set him up on, he ended up becoming a sex, drug, and, addict. Mm. And his life was destroyed. Right. And now he's trying to help other men parent better because sometimes- Mm we're enabling in ways that are not healthy, you know? Yeah. And my dad gave me beer when I was 12 or 11 or 10, something like that. Yeah. A lot of them see it as- And beer is gonna get you drunk ... initiation of manhood, um- People under 10- Or just... Right ... a little too young. Right, right, exactly. Technically, 20 is too young, but you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, honestly. But that was an alcoholic trying to get, um- Right ... some kind of connection. Yes. You know? Yes. That's, that's not, you know. And that's the sad part. My father, I refused to drink with him, you know? Now, he raised me his whole life, he said, "I hate being an addict. I don't wanna be an addict. I don't want you to be an addict. I would never want this life for you, the agony I feel of withdrawals, of relapse, of trying to get better, of failing." He goes, "It's miserable." And he goes, "I'm just drinking until one day it kills me. I don't want that for you." And so he was very, uh, anti-alcohol for me, like, v- completely villainized it, completely misconstrued what it was, made it up to be this thing that it wasn't because of what it had done to his life. Right. Now, I never wanted to drink because of what it had done to my family and his life and the lives of other addicts I knew, but I do drink socially now. And now that I drink socially, my father said, "Oh, well, let's drink together then." And I refused to drink with him- Mm ... because he's an addict. And he's like, "Well, it's a father-son bonding experience." I said, "It could be, under better circumstances." Yeah. "But for me to drink with you is actually just enablement." Mm. And he tried to pull, I guess, you know, and, and I'm sure you can attest to this, addicts are great at rationalizing and justifying anything. Yeah. You know, especially when it comes to drinking. Mm-hmm. Uh, whether it's a holiday, every day is a holiday you know. He said, "Well, I'm gonna drink either way, so you might as well join me and get this father-son time that you're not gonna have." Or- And- ... you could not drink. Right, right. Right, right. Right, right, right. But in his mind, you know, he's trying to say- Mm. Right, and that's, and, sometimes- People will fall for traps that look like bonding but are enablement or- Totally ... you, you know? And then- That, that could pertain to so many things too. Right. I mean- Beyond, beyond alcohol ... it makes so much sense to me that you feel that way. My daughter I think rarely drinks. I was very careful to her. I said, "Look, if you wanna drink, drink. If you don't wanna drink, don't drink." Mm. That, don't think, you know, you need to be afraid of it necessarily. Maybe there is- Right ... hereditary components. Mm. Be aware of that fact, but don't be afraid of it or whatever. Just decide- Right what you wanna do. You're an adult. And I think she rarely drinks, and I think that's because of me. Mm. And that's okay. But, it's like if you, were friends with a compulsive overeater and they said, "Oh, let's go out and, you know-" Let's go out and eat ... "and eat," you know, and then you watch them really gorge- Don't feel bad about it yeah, really s- I mean, if they're really, like, you know, sweating and addictively stuffing themselves, you know, it's not an enjoyable thing to watch. Mm. You know? And that's- Mm ... and I mean, that's maybe a ba- a bad example- Yeah ... 'cause a lot of people do do that, but, you know. Well, and knowing that it's killing them, that it's ruining their life too. I mean, there's a guilt. You know, you're enabling them, and some people can say it's their choice. You know? Like, me being here doesn't play a factor in it, but- Mm ... there's a bit of bystanderism there, that there's... And for me, to explain 'cause of your daughter's situation, for me, I had swore not to drink, and then a, a buddy of mine pulled me aside and he goes, "Mr. Whiskey-" You haven't chosen not to drink. Mm-hmm. You're just living in fear of what your father has portrayed it to be and what you believe it could make you. Mm. Until you try drinking and then choose to stop, you're not in control. And I really thought about that, and I said, "Well, this is a risky situation. What if I, what if I start drinking?" Well. So I said, "I'm gonna write a letter and have you sign it that blames you for everything." Yeah, that's smart. "And, you can read it out loud at my funeral and everything." But when I drank- Mm ... I didn't instantly become an abuser or black out or... Like, my perception of what alcohol did to a person- Mm was so extreme because I had always been witnessing the extreme end of it. Right. You know? And even looking at TV shows and media, drinking, it was always exaggerated to it became a big party 'cause they're trying to promote drinking. Sure. Or it led to some kinda sexual encounter or some abuse or something, right? I, I never even saw just, like, regular social drinking because a lot of times when there's alcohol involved in media, it's some kind of dramatic, cinematic event. And so for me, first time I tried alcohol, I mean, it was kinda just a drink, you know? Yeah. And I'm cautious about it though. Sure. Because of my family background, my father's history- Yeah I don't drink if I'm in a bad mood. I try not to drink alone. You know, I only drink on social occasions, and if it's a great event and I'm drinking and suddenly it's a bad time, then we stop. Not everyone- That's pretty normal. Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, and I know plenty of people who if a good time turns bad, they drink even more, you know? Well. So. That's... What are you doing it for, right? Right, right. And, so that's why I'm very cautious around it. Now let's get into, so the book we've referenced so much- Yeah ... Wounded Angels, I wanna talk about that. You mentioned a little bit about the writing process, talking about the name, why you chose that name- Mm-hmm and everything that it's kind of done for you and what you're hoping it'll do for others. Sure. I didn't choose the name. The inner child did, and that's why... Actually, I've had a number of people tell me the name sucks- Mm ... and that I should change it, and I'll never sell books if I don't change it. Mm. Wounded Angels is the name of it. And, I did give some thought to it because I thought, "Well, am I self-aggrandizing calling myself an angel," whatever. It's, my inner child in this book. But I mean, when I look back at that kid, those kids when I was four, nine, whatever- Mm-hmm ... I was looking at an angel that was hurt, wounded. So it makes a lot of sense to me, Wounded Angels. Right. And, um, I'm keeping the name, so whether, you know, for better or worse, you know? Right. And most of them were trying, were formed to protect you, right? And angels historically have a protective, uh, aura, guardianship around them, right? Mm-hmm. People talk about guardian angels. Even in the historical accounts of the Bible, you look at biblical scripture, all the angels were tasked with either offensive or defensive parts of protection, of service, right? Makes sense. Yeah. And so these, these inner children, like, like you said- Whether it was the, y- y- you have different names for them, the firefighter, the overeater, like all these different things- Yeah numbing, right? Mm-hmm. Some of them can seem like bad coping vices, and some of them are, but ultimately it was done to protect you, right? Or to protect some part of yourself. The subconscious is an amazing thing. Yeah. It's genius. Yeah. It's like you would almost say that it was like- Beyond human. You know There are people who get physical reactions as protective mechanisms around certain things. I do very much now. Actually, I do very much, now that I'm more mindful. And I... There was one situation, and this involves, a person in the book, very deeply actually. Mm. The person who I ended up getting, the re-traumatization issue- Mm ... at the end, which connected to the nine-year-old trauma. Mm. Which is basically chapter one and the last chapter of Wounded Angels, right? Okay. This person, and I don't have any judgment about this person, I know how this person affected me. Mm. And I definitely deified this person. I made him into a Christ figure and all these kinds of things. Mm. And, and just thought, you know, "If you approve of me, I'll be okay." Mm. But I used to get violently sick when I'd go to see him. Mm. Like, literally, like he lived a couple hours away. I took the train across Tokyo. Mm. And I would get... My stomach would clench up. I'd have to run into the department store and, and go to the bathroom, 'cause I was like, just... And I, and I thought, "Oh, maybe 'cause I like him so much," you know, I'm just, you know, nervous to hang out with him or whatever. Mm. But when I look back on it, I think that was my body reaction to feeling like this is, kind of predatory. This is not good for you. This is not- Right ... it's like I was be- you know, behaving as prey does when the, when the- Right ... rabbit sees the, the shadow of the hawk. Right. They shit themselves and all kinds of stuff. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know, and again, no judgment on any other person. I'm just saying my reaction- Right ... was like, "You should not be around this person." Right. And I was ignoring my body completely, and just like, "Oh, no, no, no. I need this person." Mm-hmm. Turns out I didn't. And all the people that I had these toxic relationships with, which- Mm-hmm I firmly believe codependent relationships- Mm ... are always a two-way street. It's not like one codependent person and one healthy person. That's not how it is. Water seeks the same level. Right. And we're all doing this dance, right? And all those relationships were, were, that were bad for me are gone now. Mm-hmm. And for the better for all concerned, I think. And I have- Yeah ... I've replaced them with some healthier relationships and some renewed relationships. Mm. There were people that didn't go away. We, you know, grew together, including my daughter obviously, but other people- Right ... who were willing to be open-minded about their side of it, my side of it. Okay, let's have a healing conversation. Where can we go with this? Right. So to all the way circle back to what you asked, I think that's what I would like people to get from Wounded Angels, to sort of see- Mm ... my process of healing, what healing feels like, including that kind of thing. Right. And sort of find their own way. 'Cause it's not a how-to. It's not read Wounded Angels and do what I did. Right, right. Right, right? That's, that's like, it's the opposite. It's more like, you know- Yeah ... what are you gonna find? In your life, you know, what stuck for you? And, you know, I talk about the technique of, the triggers. Right. And, you know, using that to, to get in touch with these frozen angels. Yeah. And one thing, and maybe you could talk about codependency to this degree when it comes to more romantic relationships, or it could even be friendships, but, you know, not loving yourself, so if this person loves me enough, then, you know, I can love myself or appreciate myself, or... You know, we talk all the time on the show about that. I was in some relationships where my partner did not love themselves, and constant reassurance wasn't enough. I had some relationships where complimenting them five to six times a phone call, dates, you know, five times a week, flowers this many times a month isn't enough. Like, they just constantly need more and more because they don't love themselves. And so they want this constant reassurance of, "You're pretty, you're beautiful, you're this, this, that." Or they say, "You need to love me for me and you." And that's a lot to put on a person. It's very draining. It can take away the specialness, the romance, and true feelings behind- Mm-hmm compliments, gestures, and other things. But unfortunately a lot of people, especially, I'll use the terms nowadays, you know, daddy issues and mommy issues, we see a lot of people who, because of the lack of parental love, the types of relationships that they pursue. And then we've also discussed on the show a lot of us gravitate towards relationships that our parents had with each other. Oh, yeah. Whether that was good or bad. Now, you came from a home of separation- Mm-hmm ... passing away. What was the relationship between your step-mom and father like? 'Cause it didn't sound like a good one, and I've only read a little bit about it, so. And there's not a lot about her in the book, because they... my dad was key in a lot of the inner child work. Mm. My step-mom wasn't so much. But they were together from when I was six, and then I left home when I was 14. Oh, wow, okay. So- Yeah, I didn't make it that far. Ri- oh, sorry, spoiled it. That's okay. I left home when I was 14, but they divorced when I was, like, 18 or 19. Okay. And then he passed away with his third wife, a lovely woman named Tina. He tried to get me to call her Mom. I was like, "No." She's, like, kinda closer to my age, and I'm like, "She's Tina." "Hi, Tina," if she's watching. But, you know, he's the three wives. Mm. You know, that's one thing. And, their dynamic was yelling and screaming. Mm-hmm. Like, they, she was a yeller and screamer. I don't know if she is anymore. Mm. I mean, I visit her on holidays and whatnot, very dramatic. She once said to me, and I'll... You know, this wasn't in the book, but she once said to me, she's like, we were... She was in the kitchen. She was yelling at me about something, and she said, "Take this knife and stick it in me. Just stick it in my chest right here." Wow. "That's how much you're hurting me." Wow. I was like, I don't know how old I was. I was younger than 14. Mm. What? You know? Right. So dramatic, right? Mm-hmm. That, that was not right that she did that. Mm. And I look back at that, and I'm sitting there going, you know, "Oh, no, no, I, I'm so sorry," you know. "No, no, I'm not trying to hurt you." And that's exactly what you're talking about. That's manipulative, right? Mm. I'm supposed to say, "I'm so sorry. I'm terrible. I shouldn't be hurting you." Right. "I'm really hurting you." This is toxic stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And the same thing with the, say you love me, say you like me. The question for me there is, what's the other side of that? Why are you doing this? Mm. Right? That's why I say it's always a two-sided thing. Yeah. You know, you're maybe fulfilling a rescue need of some sort, or I wanna make you happy, because if you're, you know, I can fulfill and make you fulfilled, then maybe I will be. Mm. I think, and I'm not presuming any of your- No, no, no, I get it ... 50 shades of gray I, I've been called, um, white knight syndrome, broken bird syndrome. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, I, I mean, sure, we could, we could relate it to a lot of things. Mm-hmm. One of them being, I mean, in general, I hate to see people sad and hurt- Sure and broken. Sure. And especially women. I think, you know, I wasn't able to save my mom from a relationship. 'Cause you can only give a person so much advice and stuff. You know, I work in domestic violence, sexual trauma, human trafficking prevention awareness. Mm-hmm. A lot of these women chose to stay in those relationships, and yes, a lot of them were in financial bondage, emotional, you know, trauma bondage. Mm-hmm. They were all, all kinds of stuff. Mm-hmm. But some of them knew all this stuff and still said, "I rather be miserable with him and suffer the abuse than leave." The devil. And, and what I mean to say is- Yeah ... you need people to wanna help themselves as much as you wanna help them, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. I think one thing too is w- I wanna go back to something interesting tying into codependent relationships, into feeling physical symptoms, whether that's prickling, whether that's nausea, whether that's headaches. Maybe sometimes it's weight gain even. There's different stuff. I actually had a woman on the show share about how the first time she was in a healthy relationship- Mm-hmm because she had been unhealthy, unhealthy, unhe- it made her sick. Oh. Because she got, like, so overwhelmed- By the, unmet expectation of yelling or of abuse or stuff like it... And actually I've seen women and men run away from a healthy relationship because it feels uncomfortable because they're so used to unhealthy. Yeah. Which is so crazy. But I think about if you drank soda your whole life, the first time you ever have water, you're gonna be like, "What is this?" Yeah, yeah. You're gonna be in shock, right? Even though water is good for you- Totally ... and soda is not, especially nowadays. Yeah. But you're so used to drinking the soda that if you have water, you're gonna be like, "I don't understand this feeling." Totally. It's, yeah. The, what I was thinking as you were saying that was like, this is not normal. Mm. Like her thing. Yeah. There's no yelling, there's no screaming, there's no drama. Right. This is not normal. 'Cause that's what we learn is normal. Right. That whole goes back to the Brady Bunch, right? That's not realistic. Right. Yelling and screaming is realistic. Right. It's what we- Life is yelling and screaming ... and, and- Is what I was told ... I'd have to presume, and I won't assume, but maybe your stepmom came from a household where her parents, like you mentioned, a toxic household. In fact, this blew my mind. Mm-hmm. Two, two things I'll share. Had a gentleman on my podcast, his dad would get so angry he would rip all the furniture apart physically. Mm-hmm. He thought everyone's dad did that. He thought that was the standard. Yep. And he goes, "I started drinking because," there was a different gentleman, "Well, my dad had a beer every day after work. I thought that's just what men do. I thought that was what it meant to be a man, to be a father, to have a job." Yep. Had a woman on my show, her father never hugged her. One day she sees, one of her girlfriends, you know, their dad hugging. She's like, "Is there some kind of romantic, sexual thing between you and your father? What was that, that touching stuff?" She goes, "What do you, what do you mean?" Right, right. "Just hugging me, dropping me off for school. You, you don't know?" And she's like, "My father's never hugged me. That's weird. Is that normal?" You know? Mm-hmm. Like, it's crazy what we, we think is, what we assume is normal, because when you're growing up, especially when you have limited or controlled exposure to the world like I did- Mm-hmm 'cause there's a lot of things I found out the hard way like, oh, this isn't normal, or this is- Yeah ... wrong too. Mm ... especially, you know, growing up in a household that raised me to be racist and xenophobic, and I had this picture that every country outside of America was a war zone. Sure. Like, it was just a destroyed war zone of poverty and- Me too, actually. Yeah, right? And I've been- Yeah ... traveling around Japan, I've been to parts of Mexico, I've traveled, I've interviewed people from these nations, and it's like, it's not at all what, what was painted as this, you know, just... And I thought, I thought New Jersey was like all of America. Mm. New Jersey's not the greatest state in America. It's one of the worst states in America. Wow. In my personal opinion, uh- Yeah ... for taxes, crime, population, traffic, and yeah, all, all, all the good stuff. You know, but I thought it was like all of America, you know? Like, I, I had such a skewed perception, and then you get out into the world and you're like, "Whoa," you know, "This is different," you know? Especially I've seen homes where people never met people of another race, you know? Everything they learned was, nowadays you have social media- Mm ... but that too can be an echo chamber of this, this, this. Oh, God, yeah. This, this, this. God, yeah. This, this, this. Definitely. Like, I look at, um, even, even Japan, living here temporarily and there's so much glamorization of it online and, you know, I live here and I've talked to people about real, regular world issues going on here. Yeah. That people are like, "Japan is the future. It's living 50 years ahead of us." Well, there's some things- Not great ... going on here that, that are 50 years behind us , you know? Totally, yeah. So it's, with everything, it's getting real world exposure which can be hard. And then- It's just crazy to think that that kind of stuff happens. And so for you, I know reading your book, you had trouble making friends. I haven't gotten into any romantic relationships yet, so I'd love to talk about that part. Mm-hmm. Did you embody some of that familial history into your relationships, the codependency? I'm assuming you were in codependent relationships too. Yeah. You talked about... I did read about, you know, the, "I'll never leave you, I'll always love you." The- Oh, that was my friend who passed away ... those kinds of stuff. Yeah. That was my friend who passed away, Lauren. She was more of a mother figure. Mm. And that, again, the two-way thing is I I felt badly because I was, felt like I was stressing her. Mm. But at the same time she was talking about her, that I was the only person she could talk to about dying. Mm. She had stage four cancer. So I felt this heavy responsibility. I'm the only one she can talk to. I need to- Right ... show up for her no matter what. Even when, if I was in a bad space, she would be like, "I can't deal with your problems 'cause I've got my own." Mm. Which she did, but at the same time it was just, we were both trying to give each other... We were just desperately trying to get what we couldn't get- Mm ... out of that relationship. And her saying like, you know, "I'll never go anywhere. I love you," whatever. It's like, we're just friends, right? But I'm getting this like, this mother figure vibe out of this. Mm. Why are you saying this? And, because we were behaving like that. It was, it was just- Mm ... a toxic rela- like the one with my grandmother. But I will say, I wanna go back a little bit to what you were saying about, Just a bit ago, New Jersey, and we went back. Right. You were t- what were you saying just before that about- The woman had never been hugged by her father. Yeah, yeah, thank you. That, that, yeah, that kind of stuff. Thank you. Yes. This is why everybody should buy my book. I'm, okay, I'm not even gonna p- Shameless plug. I thought that was funny. Shameless plug. Yeah. Wounded Angels. But no, this is why everybody should do inner child work or some kind of healing work. Mm-hmm. Okay? Because for me, what it came down to is all these things you were saying we get taught. Mm-hmm. All these, my grandmother saying, "Save every penny 'cause we're gonna be broke tomorrow." And, and- Right ... you know, and my dad teaching me I should be drinking at age 10. And, I got all these different skewed values- Mm and ideas about what life is supposed to be and how I'm supposed to be. The inner child work started to teach me who I am. Mm. What my integrity is. Mm. What my values are. And they might not be the same as yours. Right. And that's okay. You know, I don't have to force my values on you, but I need to know my own. Mm-hmm. And for most of my life, and for a lot of addicted people, there's no concept of what is my integrity? I don't know. whatever it takes me- Right ... the money to get high or whatever. Mm. Um, and then, like, you know, we can figure out for ourselves, like, you know, whether hugging is okay and these kinds of things. Right. My daughter's half Japanese. Oh, okay. She'll do that, actually. She'll give me a hug in private but not in public 'cause they don't touch in public. Right, right. You know what I mean? But she gives me, she's like, "I'm American, but we're not gonna do it in public." 'Cause like, you know, I respect that. But, I think just the work, the healing work is so core that so few people are able to do, and it's hard to get- Mm to the point where you can do that. 'Cause like if you've got a lot of struggle- Right ... and a lot of pain, and you talked about PTSD, you talked about childhood issues- Mm-hmm ... military issues, which I can't speak to from experience, but I know- Yeah ... my dad was military as well. Oh, okay. Um, yeah, Vietnam vet. And so... Well, that explains a lot as well. It might. It might. Yeah, 'cause those- Yeah ... th- like I said, those aren't sole factors, they're additional factors on top of everything else you're dealing with. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So... And one thing I would say about that, just speculating, but I tend to think some people might be joining the military to get some distance- Yeah from something. Yeah, yeah. Right? Just like I'm- We see plenty of that ... I'm in Japan. Right. You know, I put plenty of distance between me and where I came from. Mm. And I probably would've gone to the moon if I, you know, had- But you can't run away from the child inside of you who's, who's in there. You can't. Yep, can't. Yeah. You can't. But it makes sense that people do that, traumatized people do that. Right. Because they're running away also from... I was running away from physical- places and things- Yeah, 100% ... where they were. And I can go back there now, but even now- There's an association with it ... it's real- Yeah is what I'm saying, is, what is what I'm saying, is like these things, these traumas, they don't go away. You can- Mm-hmm ... make peace with yourself, but then you, uh, you were talking about forgiveness- Mm ... right? Yes, we, and forgiveness with boundaries, that kind of thing. That's, I think, the ideal, and maybe the hardest way to go. Yeah. But, you know, but first you have to figure out yourself. First you have to, like, who am I? You know, what's my health right now? Health is a big thing, too. I don't know if I talk about it in the book specifically, but physical health, mental health- Right ... spiritual health, and emotional health. I'm always checking in on that, right? I was at like- Yeah ... a zero 10 years ago- Mm ... on all of them. You know? If you wanna get healthy and you start to get a real sense of who I am, then you can have a healthy relationship. And you can even... And also, the, talking about the broken bird, I never heard that before, but it makes- Mm ... a lot of sense. You can help people if you're okay. Right. Or if you're healthy. And I do, I try to help people if I'm asked for help. I don't try to interfere. Mm. But I do try to help if I'm asked for help. In a healthy boundaried way that doesn't overwhelm me or take over my life. You know what I mean? Right. And so it's not like you can't help or you have to be like, "You know, I'm, I'm only gonna associate with healthy people as if-" Right as if I am. Mm. Depends on the day, you know? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I'm better than I used to be, and I can see those things. I can see that, you know, the addiction, the trauma stuff, the codependency, I can see that so much, and s- it's such a struggle for people. Mm. And they just look like they're suffering with a painted smile on their face and stuff. Oh, yeah. And I love to help somebody like that if I can, if they're ready, just like you said. Right. If people are really ready. But if they're not, you could try all you, you could try- Yeah ... all day long and it's not gonna go anywhere. But you should still try in the sense that sometimes people need their eyes opened, right? Mm-hmm. And sometimes you're planting the seed of, of that occurring. Sometimes. So you might not be the person who's helping them, but you might be the person who sets them onto the right path, you know? I think, yeah. And I think everything, we always say do it with integrity, practicality, respect, appropriateness, you know? Mm-hmm. One thing I'll mention too when it comes to wanting, feeling like you're not able to rescue someone, something that I'm sure you can relate to is I thought that if I won the lottery, you talked about winning the lottery. Mm-hmm. You know, if I won the lottery or made enough money and I bought my parents this big house and retired them, that would fix their marriage, it would fix the way they treat their children. And you and I both know at where we are in life now, that wasn't the issue. It was never the issue. It's not even that we had a bad house or anything, but I just thought I, well, I need to get them more. If they're not happy with what we have now, they need more. Mm-hmm. The marriage had nothing to do with any of that. It had nothing to do with finances, it had nothing to do with property, it had nothing to do with physical geography or anything. Right. The marriage was just the toxic relationship that they had. Yeah. One of domestic violence, sexual violence, narcissism, manipulation, all that stuff. And they would've just done the same thing in a nicer house. Right. Right. Or maybe they would've had separate bedrooms and a private bowling alley to relax. Who knows? But- More money, more problems, I think. Right, right, right. If, if you're not in a good space otherwise, I think you can- You know, improve your life and get more money- Yeah ... and be better if you're better in other ways. But if things are toxic to begin with, it's- Right ... look at all the, look at all the movie stars that just go off the deep end. Right. Many, many of whom commit suicide in the end as well. Yep. And so we've talked a lot about a lot of your healing journey, but let's do the overall chronology. So you talked about leaving home at 14. Yep. Now you're in Japan in this sauna room Yeah ... you know, recording with me. Mm-hmm. From there to now, kind of major milestones, 'cause you're in Japan. I know reading your work, you mentioned Thailand at some point. Yeah. Where were you born and raised? How did you end up here? Kind of just like a 30,000-foot overview. Okay. Yeah, and you did, you asked about romantic relationships too- Mm ... which I hadn't gotten into much. There's not a lot to say in the past, because I was married, Mm ... from 2001 until the end of 2024, so about 18 years. Very recently. Yeah. In fact, my other, my new Inner Child book, which is coming out in a few months- Okay interestingly enough, it's called Inner Child Unleashed. I'm really not trying to pitch heavily. But Inner Child Unleashed begins with my divorce. Okay. It started chapter one, I got divorced today. A divorce that made it through years of addiction. It seems like the divorce came when you were healed. Oh, were, were you the initiator? No. Okay. Uh, n- n- Or mutual? Interestingly not. Oh, okay. Well, okay, yeah. So a bit about that. So I married, my ex-wife in 2001. We met even- Mm ... years before that. The marriage was kind of a convenience thing so I could stay in Japan. Oh, okay. 'Cause I first came... So I'll go, do the whole history to start. Everything up until age 14 was not good. Right. I left home at 14. High school was better. I didn't get bullied in high school. I was just sort of a loner, and I was playing drums. Mm. So I was joining, drum corps. I was in marching bands and stuff like that. And, things were kind of okay. College, I started drinking, and at first it was, it helped me to be social. Mm. You know, I had girlfriends. Yeah. Yeah. I had friends. You know, if I drank I could be funny. I could be whatever, and, you know. That only lasted a short time, maybe a year or two. And then it started, that started overshadowing everything else. I looked for more drugs and all that kind of stuff. Ended up dropping out of high school and in a rehab at age 25. I had tried to kill myself. Mm. I tried to cut my wrists. And was taken in by the police actually, and actually they drove me to, jail for a night, and then I was in the rehab a couple days after that. 20 years before I had my last drug or drink. Wow. Interestingly enough, that didn't do it. Yeah. That starts to point to, like, alcoholic, drug addict, because, like, that's the kind of thing that would stop most people. Right, right. Turning point. Then things kinda got more successful. I went down to Florida- Mm ... where I had family, and I was playing drums at Universal Studios, and I had- Oh, wow ... a job at Disney World as well. Huh. And then from there... But things were starting to crash and burn real fast. I was making enemies left and right. Mm. I was getting into harder stuff, as you can in America more than here. Right. And, I was on the path to destruction, and I took an audition for Tokyo Disneyland. Oh, okay. And I won it. And so all of a sudden I'm flying business class over to Tokyo, and, like, getting paid 1,000 bucks a week to drum on trash cans. What? That's, yeah. My dream job, right? Yeah, right, right, right. It was absolutely my dream job, and I didn't enjoy a day of it. I was bitter and resentful- Mm ... and just like, "Oh, it's raining. We shouldn't have to play the show, eh," and I'm like, just- Mm ... like, "Be grateful, will you?" Like, if I had a time machine- People's dreams lie. It was, oh, what a job, right? Play drums on trash cans for 10 minutes, we'll pay you money, right? Yeah. But anyway, I was getting sicker and sicker. Right. And that, so I lost all that after about 10 years. I assaulted a Disney security guard. Not a good idea. Right. While I was intoxicated. Mm. Uh, meanwhile, I got married, um, and had a child in 2004. Mm. None of that was stopping me. The day that my daughter was born, I said, "You know, I'm gonna, I'll never do drugs or drink again," and that lasted, like, 12 hours, sad to say. Right. I was powerless over that shit. I couldn't stop for her sake. That, that's what finally got me to quit. Mm. Why can't I stop for her sake? Mm. 14 years later, I was still asking the same question, 'cause I love my daughters- Mm ... more than anything. So I was married at that point. 11 years of basically just a hermit. I was just, like, teaching English to just to make enough money to buy alcohol, and shades were drawn- Mm kinda like this. I never went outside. Wow. No friends, you know, and it was very pathetic and sad. I was 100 pounds heavier. Mm. And finally... Actually, it was, like, flatline f- y- you were talking about how things are exponential. Right. In that case it, it went, it crashed and burned, and then just flatlined for 11 years. Mm. Just subsistence living, and it, it was really pathetic. I'd lost all my dreams. I, and I did start writing at that time, though- Right ... interestingly enough. So I started writing. I think I was trying to communicate, trying to- Right, right ... reconnect with myself, and I'm almost done here. So when I finally quit the drinking and the drugs was 2018, and even by that point my ex-wife had been saying, you know, "You're, you're a loser. You're a shit bag. I need you to get out of my life." And I was like, "No, no, no, I have to stay. I can't... What am I gonna do? I can't go anywhere." Yeah. "Da, da, da." It was extremely codependent. And she was not kind. But I en- I mean, at that time I was a train wreck, and she was running both our lives. I couldn't- Right you know, she bought us a house. I didn't even, I wasn't even involved in looking for it, 'cause I was just too wrecked. Wow. And she was trying to get on with her life- Mm ... which makes sense. But then I started to heal, and as I started to heal it seemed like she was getting more embittered, and she was like, "You need to get the hell out. I'm sick of you. We need a divorce." And I have to add the fact that I also came out at that time. Mm. I'm gay, and so I came out in 2018, no, 2017. Okay. Humiliated her. I came out on Facebook. This was- Mm ... all the wrong way. I don't regret that I came out, but I do regret the way I handled it. Right. So that was, you know, you know, get out. You know, she was humiliated. She hated me. But that's what made me realize that the alcohol was the biggest problem too- Mm ... 'cause people were being supportive. People were saying, "Oh, you know, that must be a weight off your shoulder. You must feel better," all this kinda stuff. And I was like, "No, I don't feel better. I feel worse." And then two days later is when I quit, and when I started to try to quit. Mm-hmm. I didn't manage to quit for, like, another year. And then, so all that. My daughter was involved in that too, and she was highly affected by all of that shit. You know, "What are my teachers gonna say? What are my friends gonna say?" Right. And all that kinda stuff. She and I, as I said, we have a great relationship now. We made peace with, you know. She's very accepting of me. Mm. I'm very accepting of her. And all that time my wife, my ex-wife was saying, "Get out. I want you out." And then I finally said, "Okay. I, I agree with you." I, you know. Mm. And then she said, "No, we can't divorce yet." Mm. "I want to wait until our daughter finishes high school." That was three years later Mm. And by the way, the relationship was completely over. Separate rooms- Oh, okay ... all that stuff. There was no marriage anymore. Right. We need to wait. Okay. So I, and being codependent and feeling like This is easy, you know? I just stayed, and I still hadn't addressed the codependency. And so, I said, "Okay, great. Well, we can wait." And, then my daughter finished high school, and she said, "Oh, no, no, no, we have to wait until she turns 20." Mm. And I was like, "Well, I thought you said high school," but even at the same time, I was still like, "Oh, you know, it's a place to live. We own this house. I don't have to move on." And finally in the end, in 2024, I was calling for the divorce. I'm saying, "We need to move on. I need to move on. I need to get out of the house," and she kept on putting it off. Mm. And I didn't understand why, 'cause after all that time she's like, "I hate you. I want you out of my life," but suddenly it stopped, right? Right. Because it was a trauma bond. It wasn't a loving relationship. Mm. It never... I mean, I care about her as a human being deeply. She's the mother- Mm ... of my child, and there's a happy ending to this story, too, relatively. We finally did divorce at the end of 2024. That's when I went traveling, and last year I was- Mm ... just on the road. Right ... and writing and all that stuff. And, was writing that book, the Inner Child book, and it started chapter one, I got divorced. Last month, I met with her and my daughter for the first time. Mm. And we had a really lovely afternoon. We had coffee together. We went to her father's grave because- Mm ... he had passed away last year. Both our fathers passed away last year. Okay. Yeah. She, wanted to see me, and she was... When I came back to Japan, she was starting to kind of, want to caretake again. Like, she was- Yeah ... giving my daughter orders about, "Make sure your father signs up at City Hall and renews his license," and, but, and all this stuff. Right. My daughter's coming to me saying, "Mom's doing all this stuff." And I'm like, "Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. I'm an adult. I can do my-" Right you know, I can do everything. So she's still got something going on there- Mm ... where she's like, you know, bonded. But as I said, do care about her very deeply, you know, and I don't want her to be in pain. I want her to have a wonderful, beautiful life. And so that healing moment we had, that was the end of the book. Mm. I was like, "Okay, that's the last chapter." Wow. Yeah. It was the long story short. And how did you even meet her? 'Cause, Mm-hmm ... inter- is she Japanese Japanese or Japanese American? We worked in Italy together. But I'm saying is she Japanese- She's Japanese. Right. So- Yeah ... intercultural relationships here in Japan, Yes how did you manage that, especially in the state that you were in? Like, Mm-hmm ... how did you, achieve that? And what I mean to say, I guess for anyone listening, it's not the easiest thing to do here. Mm-hmm. It's not the most accepted thing- No ... number one, and, it's just a very different culture. The dating culture, the courtship culture is very different, for any American man, let alone one who's dealing with so much stuff. So how- That's right ... did that kind of unfold? Sure. And that's not to diminish you saying, like, you can't get a woman or anything, you know, but- Oh, no, no, no ... just saying- No, no, no there's a lot of barriers to it- Yeah ... in that particular situation. No, absolutely. Well, to be honest with you, now, I was, the, back at that time, and that was, at that time too, and I don't feel that I was deceptive to her in the sense that- Mm ... I told her I was attracted to men and women, and I was thinking about coming out even back then, but the societal pressure was more like, "Hey, go, go date some girls or whatever." And I was like, "Yeah, okay, I should," 'cause I don't wanna be anything besides normal. And I met her, and I did love her. The thing is... And so I was kind of dating when I first got to Japan. Right. There was a lot of pressure of that. Like, "Well, making all this money, you know, get some girls, you know, let's go-" Right, right "have a party." And, it actually isn't that hard to date Japanese girls, but when you start to get in a relationship with them, that's one of the complications. Right. And she was kind of international. She had lived-- She had, American friends. She spoke- Oh, okay ... English very well. So makes it easier. That's part of it. Yeah. She worked at Disney, which is an American company. Right. So a lot of the people you see working at Disney here are American-ish. Right. Okay. You know, same with TGI Fridays too, bar and grills and stuff. They're all like, "Yeah, hey, wearing the cowboy hat like you," you know? Yeah, yeah. "I speak English. Why don't..." You know, like that kind of thing. Yeah. The Hard Rock Cafe here too, that's another spot. It's all- Totally, totally ... very Americanized. So that's, you know, that's how that started. And again, I think we were just two broken people who met each other- Mm ... and were trying to, you know, just find something. Mm. But she had major issues with her dad too. Okay. Both of us did. I'm like, I'll tell you why. This is the truth, and I don't wanna generalize, but if a Japanese girl really wants to upset her dad- Mm ... she can bring home a foreigner. Yes. Yeah, I've heard that. That's, "Oh my God. Oh, yeah, I think..." You know? That's just like- Yeah ... "How you doing now, Dad?" Well, and that's, that's not even just a Japanese-American thing. But in America- Mm ... a lot of women will pursue, or even men too, will pursue a partner that will displease their parents if they're having some kind of rebellion relationship with their parents. Sure. Anything to piss them o-... In fact, my one buddy got screwed because the girl he liked, her parents, this was like his high school. He liked this girl in his grade. He really liked her, but because her parents approved of him so much and said, "Oh, he's such a great guy"- Right ... she went and found the opposite of him- Oh and said, like, "You would be great, but you would make my parents too happy." And that's so sad- Oh my God, yeah ... to- It's, it really is ... to dictate our romantic lives based off how our parents feel- Mm-hmm ... whether they approve this, approve this or that. Yeah. It should be about, you talked about who am I? What do I want? What are my values? Yeah. Right? That's so important that our relationship life is dictated by that. That's right. But oftentimes, like, you know, my life's a great example of all my career choices were my parents. They wanted me to do this, that. When I was 17 they said, "You're going in the military," brought me to office, signed the paperwork, you know? Oh, wow. Even my romantic life, like, , my whole life my father always put pressure on me to get, know, to have a Japanese wife, which is why I chose to go to Japan in the first place because my father had always said, "There's only one thing you can do to make me proud, son. It's not serve on a submarine, it's not be an author, it's not do any of this. It's to have a Japanese wife." Really? And, Why? ... his reasoning for it was different than mine. He and I have very different views on- Mm-hmm ... on Asian women, and women in general. Okay. He has very misogynistic views, very- Okay ... sexualized views, very- Yeah ... bad views. For me, when it came to Asian women in particular, because there's so much, sexualization, fetishization, misogyny on- online- Sure for me it was, the way I saw it was Japan was a more traditional company in America that was really changing- Yeah ... in, in its values and stuff. And because of my experience with American women, not all of them of course, but a lot of them, there was a sense of entitlement and of not wanting a traditional style household of- Mom, dad, kids, you know, classic structure where there was in other countries. Ultimately that's not why, why I went. It was just an add-on to the fact that for me, Japan was right when I had gotten into learning about international culture, exploring and stuff. And it presented itself as an opportunity to leave America, which I felt like was important to me. 'Cause leaving New Jersey and just going to South Carolina, Georgia had already expanded my mind so much. How much more so if I went to another country? Mm-hmm. And the other opportunities at the time was to go to Washington in America- Okay ... or Japan. Oh, wow. Or maybe San Diego. And I said, well, Japan was the only international option at that time. Right. And so I said, "I'll go there." And I had already gotten into a relationship at that time, so it wasn't like, "Hey, I'm going and go get a Japanese wife." But- Oh, she was in Japan and you- No, no, no, no. So the- ... met her. Okay ... I had an American thing going on- Oh ... at that time, so it wasn't even, like, a motivation anymore. Oh, I see. But what I'm saying is it's interesting that parents will put certain dating pressures on you. Yeah. You know, plenty of families that say, "Don't date a Black guy," or, "Don't date a white girl. Don't date this or that," or, "These people are more like this way," right? There's a lot of that dictating our lives. It is so... Parents are so outsized in our life, I swear to God. Mm. Now, my dad, um, he said to me one time, 'cause I ha- I was dating some girls and brought them home and he said, "Oh, you, you kinda like them on the heavy side, huh?" 'Cause they were bigger. And it's in- interesting, 'cause my stepmom was too. She's actually a compulsive overeater, I believe. Mm. She wouldn't... She would say she's not, but I believe she is. But he says, "Well, she was skinny when I met her." And- Mm ... you know, and so my ex-wife is very thin Mm-hmm He, I processed it. You know, he, my dad said- Well- ... he dis- disapproves of the type of girls I date My, my dad's the same way. He actually, he specifically had unrealistic expectations for women, because a lot of the women he was with were, had eating disorders of anorexia and were drug addicts, so they were extremely thin. Sure. Especially the level of drugs that they did. And I remember, , I had a girlfriend who was a little bit chubbier, and she also liked baggy clothing. Mm-hmm. You know, she was very self-conscious. She liked really baggy clothes. Sure. So I had picked up, like, an, a large or an XL hoodie to buy her one time. My dad was like, "Holy smokes, how big is that chick you're dating? Look at the size of that thing." Oh, man. You know? But- Yeah ... just, like, eh, so I, I laugh when you say that, because it was the same thing. Yeah. Or my father really judges this one woman. Now, I think he means it in light spirit sometimes, but sometimes I think people did judge. My one ex had a lot of mental health issues, hospitalized multiple times, self-harm, suicide ideation. Mm-hmm. They kept changing her medications on her, and it did affect her personality a lot, you know? Constantly changing, especially a teenage girl's medication, I think it's, it can be very harmful. She had therapy rats, and a lot of people haven't heard of that. It's not very traditional, but her rats were her therapy animals. So now, you know, people- Oh ... have, like, therapy dogs, therapy ca- She had rats. Okay. Like, you know, the animal rats. And I think my dad has always made a point to point that out, and so have other people that know about her. And for me it's like they've, they really harped on it so much and judged her so much for it, and it, you know, it didn't matter. Or, I've even been judged for being with women who didn't wear a lot of makeup and had acne showing, and it's like, well, you know. Right. A weight is a huge one that we see, especially with social media. Sure. I mean, there's plenty of movements in the opposite direction, but- Mm ... it's kind of be- it's just this actual extreme spectrum in my opinion, where social media you have, glamorization- Yeah ... and over idolization of being heavy, and then same with skinny. Yeah. It's just like two ends of the spectrum. Totally. It's pushing either, overindulging, binge eating and, you know, saying not that you can be fat and beautiful, but that fat is beautiful. There's a very key difference between those phrases, and I think it's- Mm ... important to say you can be heavyset and still beautiful and confident. Mm-hmm. But saying it is beautiful, therefore pursue that and try to eat as much as you can- Right that's an unhealthy mindset. Sure. Saying, you know, a certain level of thinness is beautiful rather than you can be thin and beautiful pushes people towards Photoshopping, right? Sure. We see Photoshopping filters. And anorexia unfortunately. Sure. Yeah. Or nowadays people are getting so many plastic surgeries because we've put so much beauty and value in sexual organs- Okay. Yeah ... that people are getting... I mean, I've seen some, how do I say this politely, inhumane surgeries. Mm. Right. Like, people are, people are questioning the doctor for giving a woman a surgery like that. Mm. People removing their ribs to look more like a Barbie doll. Right. Right. People getting, you know, hips that are five feet across and their waist is five inches across. I mean, I've seen some things- Right ... out there that just, you know. Well, I think, yeah, aim for healthy in general. Healthy, healthy, yes. It's a, it's a, you know, I mean, in the judgment- The balance, yeah ... we all judge. I judge. I try not to. Right. On a good day I'm not very judgmental at all. Mm-hmm. On a bad day, you know, I've got, you know, this friend or that friend and I poke fun or whatever, and then it's like- Right I probably shouldn't, or definitely shouldn't, you know? But, judging- For me, it's funny, it's like one reason I didn't wanna go online- Yeah ... and I didn't wanna be doing podcasts and showing my face. Right. I've got this damage on my nose from drinking, right? So- Mm ... I was in the sun, so it's red today, but, you know, there's spider veins and stuff. Mm-hmm. And I used to be incredibly self-conscious about that. Mm. Like, I wouldn't wanna show my face. And, that's one of those things, it's like somebody's gonna, you know... And I've had people say that, like, especially on the internet. Mm. "Oh, you have a nice nose, asshole," or whatever. And it's like- Right it's, why should I care? But, you know, and then, and- Right ... I think women, too, I think women especially have an even high, higher pressure of like- Yeah ... 'cause like a guy can be, okay in different ways. Mm. Like, you know, and, whatever, a big heavy gross-looking CEO does fine. Do you know what I'm saying? Right, right, right. Like, well, he's a real winner. Well, there's, there's less pressure on our physical appearance- Physical, exactly. There's- ... compared to women ... right. But- Whereas women are kind of pin-, uh, con- Yeah ... you know? Exactly, yeah. And it's actually, in my personal experience, I've been more judged on appearance by men than women. Mm. Not romantically, but like I was bullied by boys growing up because of my freckles. Okay. Women love the freckles, not all of them, but a lot of them say, "Oh, we love your freckles"- Mm ... or stuff like that. There was boys who made fun of me in seventh and eighth grade for having them. Huh. In fact, I remember there was this guy who was making fun of me for having freckles. "Why is your face covered with freckles?" And I said, "I don't know. Why is your face covered with acne?" And , he started crying. He's like, "That's not cool, man. I can't control that. That's not cool to make fun of something someone can't control." Which you can. And I was like, "Did you think I painted these on?" Right, that's crazy. This was before the Snapchat filters. Now everyone does fake freckles. These are all real. I didn't paint these on my way here. Right. And, then also just, you know, and well, women did this as well, but especially men, determining my masculinity based off of my weight. I was only 120 pounds- Sure soaking wet, you know, as they say. Yeah. All of high school. Mm. You know, and people was always like, "You're not a real man" or, you know, I was a gold medalist in cross country, first one to get a varsity jacket- Wow ... instantly freshman year, and it was, "That's a fake sport, you know, that's not a real sport. You're not a real man. That's not real athleticism. You're just running in a straight line. Anyone can do that." Right, right. You know, try getting tackled or beat and stuff. And so- All these perceptions, like you're saying, and, and what we're getting at to to wrap that up is there's so much pressure from society, social media, and our parents, and it's really hard for us to navigate choosing what we want, unfortunately. And I think a lot of us are figuring it out way later in life than we want, whether that's 55 years, right? Or- Yeah ... their 20s or whatever it is. But better late than never. I mean, that's- Right. And that's, that's important ... for me, for me it all started when I was 47, and a lot of it was watching younger people who felt more comfortable with themselves and thinking- Hmm "I missed the boat," 'cause I was very fearful as a kid, as I said, bullied and that kind of thing. Right. Afraid of being assaulted. Didn't need to be any more abnormal than I already was. Right. So I just really went inward and started just, like, controlling my every action and my every word, and then I kind of started to shut up. Hmm. But then, you know, the substances brought that back out. Speaking of the internet thing, right? Right. I was the troll too. I trolled when I was unwell and drinking. Hmm. Oh, I'm gonna... You tell this idiot what he th- you know. What do they call it? Keyboard warrior. Keyboard warrior. Oh my God. Right. Totally, totally. And it's, you know what? I was miserable and unwell, and, you know- Yeah ... judging that guy or saying, you know, "You're full of shit." And I used to go after religious people a lot. Hmm. So I'd be like, you know, "Religion's a bunch of bullshit." You know, it's like- Hmm ... the Mormons, they're so, you know, they're so whatever, hypocritical, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Right. And all that kind of thing. And I... There was a lot of resentments that went back to growing up Catholic. I also went to Catholic school. Oh, okay. Yeah. The whole mother suicided means she's in hell thing- Hmm ... was a big thing in my mind, you know. Nobody ever really said that to me, but, you know, that sort of got in, you know, this impression, well, the Catholic Church is a bad thing. Right ... you know, and by and large, I think I try to be open-minded about everything these days. I'm just like- Yeah ... I mean, I might not agree with people, and there's some people that have views that are so extreme from my views that- Right, right ... like, well, let's just be pleasant. Right. We're not gonna have a deep conversation that's gonna go anywhere- Hmm because it's gonna- We're not gonna agree. I mean, we're not gonna even find any kind of a- Yeah ... what do you call it? Like a- Even ground or, yeah ... even, yeah, even ground. So, you know, that's kind of what we're talking about there. Agree to disagree. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, you could, you know, maybe if somebody likes music and we talk about music. There's a lot of that. Yeah. There's a lot of that in, in trauma recovery and, and- Mm ... recovery in general, too. Yeah, yeah. Because it's like- Music is very powerful ... oh, not just music, but any, uh, having that as a common bond. Right. Like, you know, trauma, even if you're very different otherwise. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. You can find- Mm-hmm ... things that you all bond together with, or you can focus on finding what separates you all. Totally. Yeah. And that's the thing. You can always find something that you two agree with or disagree with. That's with any person, whether it's politics, faith, music, whatever it is. You know, and I had a woman on the show make a great analogy. Two people meet on a bridge, and they like, they agree politically, they agree religiously, they like the same music, but they disagreed about their favorite color, so one of them throws them off the bridge. Oh, God. Right? You know, the, or something- That's, yeah ... I'm butchering that, but basically- Yeah ... right, you can always find something to the smallest detail that you disagree about. Sure. It's about where do you put your time, energy, and focus on. Yeah. Now, I wanna go back to, you mentioned the fiction books. Okay. And you've got a couple of them out. Yep. And, you know, that was a little while ago before your writer's block and now Wounded Angels, right? Mm-hmm. And you talked about writing it as a way of trying to express yourself, understand your emotions, work through some stuff. And one thing I will mention that resonated so deeply with me, anyone listening, if you're an author, you will totally understand this. You know, even as a podcaster, artist, I look back at the first podcast I did that I guested on to now, I'm like, man, if I was as mature as I am now, articulated as I am now. Same with writing. I look at stuff I wrote years ago- Mm-hmm ... and I read it, I'm like, man, the, you talked about writer's immaturity, so to speak. Or your level as an author. Sure. really resonate with that, and I think a lot of people can. And we all wish, "Man, I wish I could redo that now," or, "I wish I had been at this level when I wrote it." So you mention, in your book, Wounded Angels, you talked a little bit about reading back your books and you're like, you know, that, that level. But you said something key, "For where I was at the time or for what I wrote and ex- was feeling at that time, these are the books that needed to be." Yeah. So I really resonated with that, and I'd love to hear more about these fictional books. Sure. Thank you. I've have two phases at this point, obviously. Mm. 'Cause, like, I wrote the first four sci-fi books when I was still drinking, still in a toxic relationship, still none of the good stuff had happened in, you know, except my daughter was born, but- Right and I was writing these books to try to survive, to try to find a way to make money or do something, you know. And it's like, "Okay, I'll try writing 'cause I don't have to interact with anybody. I don't have to be personable. I don't..." You know, 'cause all that was out the window, you know. And so I wrote the four books, and I... They're still published. I'm proud of them even though they're not my best work at this point. But I actually went back and did, a second edition on two of them. The second book- Mm ... The Gold Club, and the third book which is, Dark Alignment. Mm. Apocalyptic book. It's really cool, about, you know, gravity suddenly changes and everybody starts to fall apart. Mm. I love that concept, right? Right. Right. And that's my book. And funny thing is, that's the bestseller right now. Mm. It's my third book because for whatever reason it's getting a little bit of attention. And, I did the second edition, and I'm prouder of it now. Right. And I would maybe go back and fix up some other stuff too at some point. But I kept them on the shelf 'cause I'm like, "This is my history. This is where I was at." Right. "This is the start- Right ... of the writer." When I came back, now the nonfiction's a little different. You know? I read, and I'm doing the audiobook- Mm ... for Wounded Angels now. My... I'm doing it myself. You should've just recorded when you were doing the talk to text. You would've already had it. I know. I know, right? Right. Uh- You didn't think about that, did you? I know. I'm telling you. Next time. Next time. Right. Right. For the third book 'cause, the second book's already written too. Mm. But as I'm reading it I'm like, "Yeah, it's still wr-..." And I'm fixing up a few things that are a bit confusing. The second edition- Mm ... will be clearer. But for the most part it's like I know the plot. Hmm. It's what I did. Right. It's my life. Yeah, I can't- Right ... screw up the plot, right? It's like, and I'm, as you said, it's basically just like talking about the process and whatever happened that day is what I wrote. So I feel less,, nervous about that or thinking it should be better, should be better. Hmm. Like you were talking about that. Right. Now, the fiction though, I did publish my first fiction book, The Solarian Deep, and that's after the big writers book, after the healing- Hmm ... and sort of the new phase. And, um, it's different. It's a lot different. I think the characters have a lot more depth. Hmm. But still my best work is still on my computer 'cause I'm writing- Okay ... a book right now- Yeah ... i'm very proud of, and I'm not gonna publish it till it's ready. And I love- Right ... I love the concept. It's another sci-fi and it's gonna- Oh, okay ... gonna be good. But again, it's, you know, I'm putting out what I'm, where I'm at now. And Solarian Deep- Right ... is kind of a bridge book or transition- In between ... that kind of thing. Yeah. And, so yeah. It, but man, it's ... The thing is I'm trying to figure out how to market myself. Like my website, like- Mm-hmm ... the common wisdom was like get a pen name, separate the nonfiction, have two websites, all this. I can't do that. I mean, this is- Hmm ... me and I spent decades hiding myself- Right ... from the world. And now I'm coming out. I want you to see what I'm all about- Hmm ... as a writer. I want you to, you know, hear me, and I want to know how we connect on this stuff, including the fiction, right? Hmm. Hmm. So to me it's like- Yeah ... past, present, future. Past- Hmm ... people talk about the trauma and the healing. Future, I'll talk about the sci-fi. And then on- Right ... Substack I'm just writing bullshit about what's going on these days, you know? Okay. It's like I wrote a lot about the travels last year. Hmm. 'Cause I just sort of did a big odyssey travel thing. And, actually, weirdly enough, I am still supposed to be on the road. Hmm. I don't belong in Japan. Oh, okay. There was a crazy quirk of the universe that has me here. Hmm. Wanna hear it? Yeah, yeah. We can unpack it for sure. The inner child hit me over the head. Oh, okay. Okay. Now to go back. I was in Japan for 90 days. Hmm. That was from ... Wait. It's the no visa, show up for 90 days and leave and then come back? Exactly. Well, I have a, the thing is I have a permanent visa. Oh, okay. But I had left as a resident. Hmm. So I wasn't paying taxes and I wasn't on the, social insurance or anything like that. Okay. So I could come back for as much as 90 days- Hmm ... without reestablishing residency. Ah, okay. Okay? I understand, yeah. So I came back in March. Playing the system. Yeah, basically, yeah. Yeah. Legally. Yeah. Legally. Legally, yeah. But you know, I was like, I could do that up to twice. Come back for 90 days, see my daughter, and then I was, I had a ticket to go to the Philippines on- Hmm June 1st. Been a lot of typhoons and tropical storms and earthquakes There would be an earthquake, like- Yeah ... later. Now here's the thing. Yeah. May 31st, in the middle of the night, and I didn't wanna... Here's the thing, is I didn't wanna leave. Mm. And the inner child was like, "Can't we just stay, please? I wanna stay." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. If you really wanna stay, we'll stay." But I was lying to the inner child- Mm ... because I was really just, "No, we got a ticket, man. We're not staying." Mm. "We'll come back. We have to... We have a ticket. We have a plan." Right. "I'm supposed to be in the Philippines." Right. I even had drumming work, actually, the stuff I was doing in Indonesia that- Right, right they were setting something up for me in the Philippines for, like this month. And in the middle of the night I got, terrible stomach pain followed by horrible nausea. Mm. And then I don't remember much. I got wicked vertigo, and I fell and I hit my head on the hardwood floor I got a concussion. Took the ambulance ride. Mm. Ended up in the hospital. My apartment mate, who it's his place, he rode- Right ... with me, really cool dude, Jason, good friend of mine. And in the ambulance, I was like, "Man, if I decide to stay, I can stay in the place?" And he's like, "Yeah, sure." I'm like, "I ain't leaving." And so I, you know, I... And I ended up getting my money back for the ticket. That's- Nice. Yeah ... a crazy, like- Yeah ... crazy quirk of fate, right? Here's the hospital receipt. But definitely- Yeah. No, it's lit- uh, no, not even that. It's they- Really? ... changed the flight time, so I was- Oh ... entitled to a refund. Wow. Yeah. So- See everything, yeah everything worked out almost as though it was like I was being guided into this. You should be in- Right ... Japan right now. I probably could do this podcast- Right, now we're here ... from Tokyo, right? I know, right? So like- My first live podcast, right? Yeah. But man, it's like... And I'm happy to be here, but it's like- Thank you holy crap, how did that happen? Right. And I really wanted it, but I was like, I really can't. I, you know, it's... I can't afford it. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm ke- the reason I went to Southeast Asia was to keep costs low and- Right, right ... all that. Of course. And, no, just my travels ended, and I'm staying at least through the end of this year, and I think I'm probably gonna stay. I'm very comfortable in Japan. Mm. Japan feels very safe and grounded for me. My daughter's here. My friends are here. Right. Right. And, so I think the big travel odyssey is, at least for now- So now I have to ask, in addition to the writing and to traveling Japan- Yep ... you gonna start drumming again around Japan, or what's the deal with that? I've looked into it. I'm focused on building my, publishing business first and foremost, and that's my- Yeah ... passion now. Yeah. I love drumming, but... And I was doing a whole bunch of stuff last year with Indonesia. I did a whole tour. They took me all around the country. I went to Sumatra, went to Bali. Mm. I went to Jakarta, and it was awesome. I got the Instagram. It's all over my Instagram. You can see the videos- Okay ... with these kids. I was teaching the kids. They were taking pictures. They're so s- nice people, and I had a great time. And a drumstick company made me their brand ambassador. Oh, wow, okay. And I still am- Yeah to this day but for some reason, Japan does not embrace me the way that Indonesia did. Mm. And I think it has to do with, they have an impression here- Mm ... that if you're to be taken seriously, you need to come from outside Japan. Mm. They bring experts in from California, from New York. They fly them in. Right. They wine and dine them for three weeks. They have them teach the kids, and they send them back. And I'm like, "Hey, I'm living here just outside Tokyo. Do you want me to come?" "Oh, no. We don't need you." It's just weird Gaijin in Japan. I am, but I am Okay, so not to be egotistical- Mm ... but I'm one of the best in the business. I'm a world-class, marching drum expert. Mm. I played at Tokyo Disneyland. I was in a group called the Blue Devils, which is the best marching group in the world. Mm-hmm. Like, 20-time world champion. I had some of the best teachers in the world, and I can play. I can play with the best of them. So, and I love doing it. I get up on stage, have some fun. I don't have stage fright anymore, ever. It's just I have a blast. But it's not the same calling that it was. I think the calling for me now- Mm ... is the writing. So I'm thinking... And I did do some outreaches, and if Japan says, "Hey, come do this thing," I'll do it. Right. I'd definitely do it. Right. And again, I was supposed to be doing some stuff in the Philippines, so that kind of fell through. Yeah. Which kind of bums me out a little bit, but- Right ... it is what it is. I told them I'm happy to come if they could get me a flight, so it's like- ... that was maybe a bridge too far, 'cause they thought I was gonna be in town, so. Right. Right. Yeah. But no, I mean, I'm making peace with, like, I used to think I have to be a drummer or a sci-fi writer or a memoirist or a psy- psychology whatever, you know, healing- Right. Right. Right ... guy or a, an influence, all this crap. Can't stand it. I just, my website's daviddeanhascoll.com. All of it's on there. Right. Everything I do. If you wanna see the drums, there it is. If you wanna see the writing, there it is. And it's not really working. You're, you're just being you. Yeah. Not really working for me. Yeah. Gotta be honest, it's not really working. Mm. Because you gotta, in the internet with this, with the algorithms and all that crap- Yeah you gotta have this kind of focus, you know? So I'm just kind of allowing it to suck right now. Everyone wants me to niche down, and I refuse. Okay. You know, I am all these different things. Mm-hmm. My website is all these different things. Okay. My social media's, I don't do what I do to be a brand or to be a business. Mm-hmm. I do it because it's what I do. Right. You know? So I'm in the, I'm in the same boat as you- You're in a boat ... you know? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I think- So no niching down. Yeah. In, in the long term- Mm-hmm ... you know, it'll work out, but that initial breakthrough, can be more difficult, so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see. Things are starting to pick up a little bit since I started doing the podcast, actually. You're welcome. There you go. Just kidding. Yeah. So we gotta do more live ones Yeah, yeah ... when you're in, when you're in Japan. Trying. I'm trying. It's, everyone's always busy. Everyone's like, "You don't understand. I sleep at my office overnight. Japan works me to death." And I'm like, "Okay, I'll come to the office to do the interview if you want," you know? But it is great to have this connection, and it speaks to so much. And one thing I've been focusing on lately is global unity. We're all human beings. Mm-hmm. We all have the same problems. Every- everyone in every country listening has gone through something that we mentioned, you know? Oh, God yeah. You know, it doesn't matter. And in fact, in other countries, sometimes those parental pressures are even more strict than in America. Mm-hmm. And so I think it's very relatable. So on that note, you know, we've kind of talked a little bit about the future. You've got more stuff coming out. Yeah. So maybe I'll have to come back to Japan to interview again, or I'll meet you in the Philippines. I'll meet you in the Philippines for that interview. All right. But, I'm trying to go next year, so. Okay. And then I've gotten invited to also Malaysia and Thailand and Ireland, all these places. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, well, next trip I'm doing, maybe we'll just... Listen, it's a long flight there. If I'm in the area, I'm going to all those places, you know. We're gonna not going back and forth- Well, if you- back and forth, back and forth ... you talked about drinking socially. If you drink socially- Yeah ... you can have a blast in Thailand. That's one thing so I didn't partake, but it was fun to watch everybody else have a party. Right. It's just Thailand is just a party, man. Just get a moped and go. That's something we should talk about. I was just about to wrap us up, but I'm a take a step back. Okay Relapse, temptation, staying sober Mm-hmm Let's talk about that, 'cause that's really important. Sure. Because, we've almost made it seem like it's a one and done. You know? Right. You woke up one day, you're like, "I'm done." It wasn't. And it wasn't. And is it currently a struggle? A little bit. Some days more than others. Some days more than others. Codependency is more of a struggle than substance abuse- Mm ... for me most days, but I wouldn't say no. Say last year was tough for me, and I'll be honest, because, my big problem has always been alcohol. Mm-hmm. And I used to smoke pot, and I never really had much of a problem, or at least I told myself I didn't. Right. If you go to Thailand, it's everywhere. It's legal there. Mm. So, like- I would say Japan, I haven't smelt it once. America, nowadays it's hard not to smell it on every- I know ... street. It's bad. I notice that in America a lot. I notice that in America a lot. In Japan- There's also no tree allergies here. I breathe so easy here. Dude, we- No pot, no tree allergies. It's so nice ... Japan, they tossed Paul McCartney in the slammer in Japan, man. Mm. You know that story? No, no, no. I don't think so. Oh, yeah, no, they caught him with some weed. They tossed him in the slammer- Wow ... for a couple of weeks, and then deported him. He couldn't come back to Japan for, like, 20 years. Wow. They do not mess around here. That's, that's ... I ... To, to all listeners coming to Japan- Be respectful ... don't, don't carry the shit across the border is what I would say. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, don't ... Yeah, it's crazy. But yeah, you don't see that much in Japan, although I did do it. I found it from time to time. Right. And could've got ... And that was one, that was one thing that my ex-wife said to me. She never told me not to drink. She never said, "You need to quit or I'm leaving," or anything like that. Mm-hmm. But she did say, "Please do not do that anymore, drugs. That you will ruin us. You will ruin the whole family." Right. So Japan's very hardcore about that shit. But yeah, Thailand was a bit tempting as far as that, you know? But then, as I kinda had to, you know, call a friend and, you know, I have some- Accountability set up acc- well, not even just that. It's just, people I trust to tell what's going on. You know, I have a small circle of friends, and I don't tell everybody everything. But, you know, find some people that you trust is my advice. Right. And I'm not even saying tell me, "Don't, don't talk me out of it." Mm-hmm. I'm just, "This is where I'm at." Mm. I just wanna voi- I, you know, there's- Right ... a lot of secretive nature to- Mm ... addiction, any kind of addiction. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. So giving that stuff the light of day is a big thing- Mm ... for me, and I think for a lot of people. But I did re- joke about that I relapsed twice. The first one, I relapsed for 20 years. The second one, I relapsed for two weeks. Mm. And that was, I'll tell you, that was in 28. I- And then my last drink was somewhere around September 11th, 2018. Mm. Very memorable. Right. Like, I can't say that I didn't do I was doing drugs too, so I can't say that on September 10th I was sober. Mm. I might or might not have been. Mm. That's how hardcore the relapse was. Mm. But I do guarantee I didn't have anything in me on September 11th, so that's my date- Mm ... of, like, my finish date. Right. But man, I was just trying to kill myself. I was just despondent. I had quit for almost a year- Right ... but hadn't found any kind of spiritual healing, hadn't found any kind of relief. Still wasn't doing any of that kind of inner work that needs to be done. Mm. And so I relapsed, and it was just ugly. It was just not good. I was trying to get up the courage to jump in front of a train- Mm ... that whole two weeks. And I th- I would- if you asked me, I would've said six or seven weeks. Mm. But I found a journal. I f- I actually found a journal- Oh, wow ... and I wrote, "I'm drinking again. I've got enough drugs to last a lifetime." And then I went radio silence. The journal stopped. Wow. And two weeks later, the drugs were all gone. Wow. And That I knew that date, so it was like, wow, 14 days. So relapse is real, and I did relapse once. Thankfully only once, but I think I was on... Again, I was on track to do another one, and people get in this- Right ... really nasty cycle. And, it could have easily happened to me, but I managed to hang on long enough to find what God means to me, to find what healing means to me, to find... And also start to- Right address the codependency because I hadn't even looked at that, 'cause I had to get off the substances first. And then, you know, the codependency was killing me just as much as drugs and alcohol ever were. Because, like, you know, if you disapprove of me, then I might as well die. Mm. I might as well go do drugs and, you know, 'cause I'm no good if you don't approve of me. You know, that's where I was at for a while. Mm. And, so yeah, don't give up. If you're out there struggling, I would... My advice is don't give up, you know? 'Cause some people do relapse, some people don't. You know, addiction- Mm ... is a monster. But yeah, I'm pretty safe today. I'm pretty okay today. Okay. And I'm pretty happy with the way things are going. I wouldn't really wanna ruin it. Right. You know? And for me, it would ruin it. If I could drink socially, I might. Right. But I know I can't. I know myself. Well, and that's important. Give me one drink- That's right ... I'll have 20. Mm. Guaranteed, same day. Mm. I wouldn't even, like, work my way up. 100%, and I think knowing that is so important. So- Mm-hmm ... what I want our final message to be is, we talked about the wounded angels. Yeah. You know, we talked about the inner children. We've talked about different forms of what creates them or harms us, codependency, addiction, escapism, numbing, all these different factors. Mm-hmm. All interconnected, really. Yeah. This is a, overall a mental health conversation. Yeah. People wanna... Maybe they're listening and they're like, "You know what? It's time for me to face my wounded angels, my inner children." How should they go about doing that? Obviously in a way that is- Mm ... not too triggering, but to some degree it is gonna be a confrontation, a communication. Mm. How should, how, what's the best way you have found to do that? You know, for you, i- obviously you were writing and working at the same time. For them, is it through a creative practice? Is it through therapy? Is it solely internal reflection? What do you recommend? Well, it's hard for me to, I, it's hard for me to recommend- Yeah, it's not one-size-fits-all specific- Yeah ... because, yeah, I do. I mean, you can see how I did it in the book. Mm-hmm. Well, part of how I did it. It wasn't all- Right ... inner child work, you know. Some of it was 12-step based- Mm-hmm ... and some of it was therapy. Mm-hmm. I had a, you know- Right ... I had a doctor. I'd been hospitalized. Mm-hmm. I was hospitalized in Tokyo. Mm. So I was hospitalized twice. Um- This isn't the whole healing, but this is a major part. It's a major part of it for me- Yeah ... especially the codependent part. Yeah. But in general, I would say, if you're in trouble- Mm ... get help. Mm. If you're kinda just taking a light-hearted look at, you know, let me try out some inner child, but my life is okay, that's one thing. But if you're, like, circling the drain and thinking... If you're really struggling, get help. There's tons of help out there, you know. So I would say that to start with, whether it's a psychiatrist or, talk to a friend and see if they can recommend help. Again, and again, I respect anonymity when it comes to 12-step, but that's an option you can check out for free. Mm. There's other support groups you can check out for free. Right. But the other thing is don't give up, 'cause I was hopeless, man. I was really- Mm ... for 11 years. And it was really pathetic and sad, and I had given up. I really thought, you know, at some point I'll die, you know? And I thought everything looked really dark, and I can't tell you how many amazing things have happened in the last eight years. Like- Right ... not only the, I mean, just the Indonesia thing with the drumming. It's like I ruined my experience at Disney. Mm. I could have had such a great time. Yeah. I mean, people were in a good mood. They were at Disneyland. I could have had such a great time and I, if I could have found gratitude, but I was really unwell. When I got well, I thought, "Well, the music thing's behind me." Like that was ruined, I ruined that. I'll focus on the writing. Mm. And then somehow Indonesia happened. It was real synchronicity. I was traveling around. I just reached out to a couple people by email. All of a sudden the right people were talking to the right people, and they were flying- Right me around the country to do drums. You know, I never thought that could happen again. You know, I thought I'd, I'd ruined it. So don't- Mm ... you know, don't give up hope, especially if you had dreams before and you don't have any anymore. But, yeah, sorry, it's not so specific on what to do, but- Yeah, no, but there's gonna- it helped, it helped ... there's gonna be opportunities, 100%. You know, we, we get tunnel vision. Mm-hmm. We get so focused on short-term in the present that we fail to think about the opportunities. Or we get so focused on the bad opportunities or what we think is gonna happen that, you know, like you're saying, there are great opportunities that we could never even predict. They just come out of nowhere. Yeah. And they present themselves. Yeah. And it's waiting and hope for those things. Like you said, one of the things we're writing about is what do we qualify and count as a miracle? There are miracles every day in our lives. Right. And, you know, we, we look for something so big and cinematic that we miss all the small miracles, so- Oh, yeah I think that's really important. We started this episode with reference to Slaughterhouse-Five. We're ending it with Sauna House Five 'cause- Oh, God, yeah ... you can't see it on the screen, surprisingly. It, it, it's- Thank goodness ... it's hot as hell ... but we're covered with sweat, and you can't see it on the screen, so thank you Zoom. Shout out, not a sponsor. Yeah. Give me one year of free premium and I'll promote. But, editing Sauna House Five, it's hot in here, but important conversation. Like I said, everything we talked about, lots of different topics, all interrelated, and I hope this resonated with someone. Obviously, they can find out more in your book. We have your website, which has everything, as you mentioned. Yes. Yeah. It does. So whether they wanna check out your sci-fi, whether they wanna check out Wounded Angels or stay on alert for your new stuff coming out. New stuff. That's exciting. Um- The new stuff will be up there soon on the... It's called... The, the sci-fi is called The Vibrants. Okay. V-I-B-R-A-N-T-S. And it's about- Mm ... the future of creativity. Mm. Okay. And then you have, quote, "Wounded Angels II"- That's Inner Child- ... for lack of a better word ... Inner Child Unleashed. Inner Child Unleashed. I, I'm pretty sure that's the title. Okay. It is a follow-up, but it's not- Is it pending? A pending title or...? I think I like In- I was going back and forth, but I think I like- Okay ... Inner Child Unleashed. Just we'll, we'll, we'll just keep our eyes open for that. Yeah. And, yeah, thank you so much for your time today, for, again, meeting me in person to do this. It's been amazing. Thank you so much. And, lots of great stuff. I'm glad you're here. And, everyone listening, just, keep up that hope, keep healing. We mentioned earlier hurt people hurt people, but healed people heal people. We have a choice of what we do with what we've been through, and it's up to us to- Definitely cultivate those life lessons. So thank you everyone for listening.