Mythbusting with Julie Ringuette

In this episode I have a conversation with Julie Ringuette, an RMT in Winnipeg Manitoba. Julie is a new RMT who quickly realized that much of the content she learned in school was not supported by current science. She has been using Instagram to challenge many of these unhelpful beliefs, but more importantly she is also providing constructive alternatives.

Julie and I discuss some of the concerns she has about the current school curriculum, the need for a curriculum update, person centred care, adapting our manual therapy narratives for the good of the public and how she uses Instagram as a creative outlet to spread knowledge to both the RMT profession and the public.

Julie’s #1 take home message. Try to make people feel like they are NOT broken and be very careful with your language.

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Transcript

0:13

Welcome to episode two of Purvi verses. One of the things I'll be doing with this podcast is to focus on specific themes, which I feel are most relevant to the professional massage therapy. I'll then do a series of episodes to explore those themes in more details. I'm gonna do this through a combination of solo episodes as well as interviews with people who I feel have important things to say. Now, my first theme is gonna be on myth busting. So when I first started teaching, all I really did was bus myths because I could easily fill an entire day with the content. Two days a week, months even now. The more I learned, the more I realized that so much of the MSK world and the massage therapy profession in particular, it was just a big hoax. At least that's how I felt. The fact that there was research that was 20, 30 years old or even longer, which contradicted everything I had learned in school and there was actually zero evidence to support massive portions of our educational curriculum. This was so mind blowing to me. I felt compelled to speak honestly to anyone and everyone who would listen. Now, as a result of of this, in my early days of teaching and advocating for change in the profession, I was actually threatened with legal action. I had people make formal complaints to my professional association by saying, if you don't stop saying these things, I'm gonna report you to the C M T V C for professional misconduct. Now, thankfully, none of this ever went anywhere because these RMGs were threatened by science and they didn't like how it felt to have their worldview challenged, which I can relate. I felt that way too. I did not like how I was feeling when the things that I was learning completely contradicted what I thought. I knew I can sit back and I can look at these things and reflect on them a bit more and realize that, you know, I'm not angry. I'm actually sad that people feel this way or people had felt that way and I'm sure people are still feeling this way. Now. Our profession has such great potential and an even greater unrealized potential to help so many people who are suffering people that refuse to, to acknowledge that there things could be better, and then there might be problems in the way that we are educated in the way that continuing education system I is is run. Is not necessarily in the best interest of the profession, and more importantly, it's not in the best interest of the public. This failure to acknowledge that change is necessary is, is, is really negligence to of the professional regulatory bodies and the associations and the stakeholders because if this profession, massage therapy, which I'm so passionate about, fails to adopt evidence-based principles into their curriculum and fails to change how they do their continuing education requirements, and there's no audit process really of what is valuable or defensible continuing education, then our profession's gonna remain stagnant, or in worst case scenario, in the regulated provinces, we could face deregulation or a big fear for all of us who this is how we earn our living is we might be removed as a benefit from extended health insurance plans. These are very real concerns and very real problems, which could happen if we don't adapt, if we don't evolve, if we stay stuck in 1980s and 1990s, uh, beliefs and faith, rather than trying to incorporate what it is that we do so well and incorporate the new science into that so we can be even better at what we do now. For many years, I felt like I was on a lonely island of skepticism. You know, I was talking about these things with a work colleague and I was, you know, reading stuff and I was talking with a few friends about these things, but no one really cared or really had much to share, uh, about, about it. At least that's how I felt. But then around 2015, I eventually met some like-minded colleagues in BC in Ontario, as well as a few colleagues in the US who I met at the San Diego Pain Summit, who are thinking and feeling very similar to me. Now it was through our conversations and encouragement from from them that inspired me to know that the journey I was on was what I always like to say is less wrong and what's necessary to help elevate the standards of our profession so we could realize our potential. Now, it was encouraging to know that now in 2023, there's a new generation of therapists who are calling out the BS every day on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter. I see new RMTs who are making videos and posts to educate any current or potential clients, but also to bring awareness to other RMTs that might be following them. That many of the beliefs and principles of massage therapy are based on faith and not on defensible science. So in this first episode of Myth Busting here, I'm going to, we're gonna meet Julie, who's an RMT in Winnipeg, Manitoba, who I connected with over Instagram. Now, I reached out to her after seeing a bunch of her videos and she had some great ones with titles like Four Massage Therapy Myths That Need To Die. She did another video on encouraging people to burn their foam rollers and challenging RMTs about what they learned in massage school. So this is a great conversation that we had, and it's great to hear, uh, the perspective of a new rmt who is using social media as her communication, uh, platform of, of choice to educate and to challenge and to, to break down some of these myths, which, uh, I feel and she feels as well are, are unhelpful to our profession. So please enjoy this episode and when you are finished listening, please share this link on all your social media platforms. Well, hello Julie. Thanks for being on my podcast today. Yeah, no problem. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, very first podcast. Yeah, very first podcast. It's exciting. Well, you're gonna be addicted to 'em now. Once you get on these things and get to start talking, it's, it's actually can be quite, uh, quite empowering, quite a lot of fun. So I appreciate you taking the time to, to be here today. Yeah, no doubt. I'm excited to meet, uh, other people in the industry for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. So how, how long have you been in R m T for? I'm, I'm very new, only a little over a year actually. Nice. Yeah, it was July, 2021 I started practicing. Oh wow. Okay. I love that. I think that's really exciting. You know, having like a healthy level of, of, of skepticism and already recognizing errors or incompleteness in, in, in our industry and in M S K care in general, to see that so early on is, is great. You have so much less unlearning to do. Yeah, definitely. Um, it was a challenging first year for sure, like unlearning all of that. And I think, but I mean, that'll be something that continues lifelong, hopefully. So. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's been good. What will happens is the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. Right. That's that's good. Exactly. Exactly. And that's, that's how I've been feeling. So it's nice to talk to other people in the same kind of head space with that. Perfect. I love it. I love it. So, yeah, I guess this is the first time we've really ever chatted. I reached out to you on Instagram a few weeks ago cause I seen your videos and your, uh, Instagram account is, uh, limp Rmt, is that correct? The, the Limp rmt. Yeah. Rmt Perfect. Ok. Yeah. And so if anyone that's listening to this, check her out there. You got a lot of great videos, a lot of fun ones. Uh, I like the one that you just posted today, which was basically an attack on, I should say an attack. It was a, you say an attack if you wanna Yeah. It's my podcast. Right. If people don't wanna listen to it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. On the most common, uh, massage textbook, that was probably the Ratray book that you were um, on. Or was it an outcome based. Doesn't matter. It was, um, clinical massage. Clinical massage therapy. Okay. I don't know if you wanna keep that in there, but that was Yeah, it's technical. Yeah, I think that, and I think that's the book by Ratray. It's an old school. I, I think it might be. Yeah. Yeah. I, I can double check if you want, but No, I thought that was great because, uh, do you wanna, do you wanna just briefly tell the audience what, what your post was about that we're talking about? Sure. So, so basically I made a post, um, with a picture of the treatment outlined for a hyper Lord lordosis treatment. And in the textbooks it says treatment should be applied once a week for six weeks. And I just thought it was interesting that if you look at the research, um, most new onset back pain will just get better by itself within four to six weeks. So I thought that was interesting. And how, how timely and perfect for us, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's always funny. You do something and people get better or you do nothing and they get better. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I always say that. I always think that the hope is though, is that at least if they come to see us, we know they're gonna get better within this probably predictable timeline, but hopefully their journey Exactly. Get better, will be better. Less shitty. Yeah. Less anxiety and hopefully prevent them from yeah, getting into a cycle of chronicity or something like that. What I, I mean, one thing, the reason I reached out to you, cause I, I'd seen these videos on, on Instagram and, and I really was impressed by, you know, your boldness at kind of challenging some of these long-term, long-held beliefs, uh, put massage and musculoskeletal therapy in general. But, uh, before we kind of dive into kind of your experience as and, and as a student and your experience and in doing this stuff and your reasons for doing this stuff, just kind of tell us a little bit about, about Julie. Sure. Awesome. I, I'll start from the very beginning, I guess. I grew up in New Brunswick, um, and that's where I first kind of got introduced to massage therapy. Very uh, Passively. It was actually, um, a medium who said, you're gonna be a massage therapist. And I kind of took that with a grain of salt because I, um, I think at that time I was planning to, I was doing like social work or, or law or something. That was my end goal when I was in university. But, and so I did hear of university there, Andy Brunswick dropped out, moved to Montreal, ended up moving here with my partner and here is where I went to massage therapy school. And here is Winnipeg. Here is Winnipeg. Yes, that's correct. And so, and you, you were telling me before that you had just started practicing in July of 2022. 21. 2021. 2021. Yeah. Yep. So very new. Um, Yeah, part of the, um, when I moved here, I had looked at massage therapy schools before actually moving, and I found the one that I went to and was, I honestly, oh, I only looked at the one, there was three in our city. And I, I just, I really liked the vibe of the place and that was one that I went with. Uh, one thing I'm, I'd be curious to know about is like, what's, what's the R M T culture like in, in Manitoba? Like is it pretty mainstream or is it kind of fringe or what's, what's it like there? That's a great question. I think there's a lot of variety here. I think there's a spectrum of people who graduated 30 years ago and are kind of just like doing their own thing, like with like Swedish or whatever, which is great. And then there's, I think from new grads, it's like, Assessment, assessment, assessment. That's the whole kind of vibe. And it's like if you don't do a full 30 minute assessment, like you're a bad massage therapist. So there's a lot of that. There is a lot of, um, more energy healing side of things. It's, yeah, there's, it's a wide spectrum and it's, I hear from people coming to see me that it's hard for them to find the massage therapist that they really resonate with just because everybody is so different, which is good, right? I mean, I think that's when they gets nice with the profession, you do want some differences, but yeah, you, you, this is what I always feel and in all my years kind of trying to advocate for change, is that, yeah, so of course you want different flavors, different types of people, but really the, the base of knowledge that we come from should be pretty standardized and it's not, right. Cause you got like energy healing to like, like high, like over-emphasis on musculoskeletal assessment and everything in between. You're like, well, Those are two extremes is can we just like, you know, exactly, is there somewhere we can meet in the middle and just help people out, like help their lives be a little bit easier for a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's, that's, uh, before we kind of get into talking and kind of about your, your, your myth busting and your kind of Instagram and your kind of motivations and goals for all the content that you put out, uh, I'd just like to, to hear a little more about your recent experience as an R M T student. Okay, sure. What do you wanna know? Yeah, so I guess, uh, the first thing was just tell me like, what did you think about your schooling and open ended question? Sure. I, um, have wrestled a lot with how I felt about my schooling. I'm not gonna name them because I don't want anything negative that I say to affect them poorly. Cause I do think, um, they're doing their best with what they're sup supposed to be doing, you know, so, um, A lot of it was focused on, uh, correcting postural dysfunctions. That was the bulk of the course. So depending on how you feel about that, um, yeah, that's not so much what I do anymore. So I felt like I've, I've strayed away from a lot of what I learned there. Um, in terms of pain science, they, there were bits and pieces thrown in. There was never any like class where, Just like the significance of, of pain science and the bio psychosocial model was emphasized. I felt like it kind of showed up in all of our classes, but in little bits and was never really put together as something that we could use with people. So for example, like in physiology, they taught us the GA theory of pain, which is great, and they taught us about the parasympathetic shift and, um, how mental health can affect how your body's feeling. But they, yeah, there wasn't a lot of emphasis on it. It was just like a, oh, by the way, this can affect things. But it was the core was, was postural dysfunctions for sure. So you're looking to find some type of dysfunction or fault in the person, and then you'd do the appropriate treatment or intervention to Correct. Said dysfunction. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's very common. I mean, that was, I was like, when I went to school 20 years ago, I guess 20 years ago, uh, almost exactly. Uh, it was the same thing. And so things happened similar. Yeah, very similar. It was all about how well can you palpate, what can you find, what can you correct And every Exactly increase, every experience of pain was usually something that could be fixed if you could find the right technique or the right dysfunction. And all you had to do is be specific enough. And, and that was, that was the thing. And it's your job to fix it. It's your job to fix it. It's your job to fix them. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I would say that your experience in school is probably very consistent with most peoples. That's what I've heard. And for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think a lot of has to do with, um, There hasn't been enough of a change in the, in the, in the culture, in the profession to, to really try and make that shift at all. It's been small and people like yourself are making a difference slowly, but I think it, it obviously needs to, needs to go more. Uh, what was interesting was, what you did say though is that there was, you know, they did touch on some of the pain science stuff and they kind of mentioned bio psychosocial. Uh, you mentioned the gate theory. Did they talk about anything else other than the gate theory when they're talking about pain science? Like did you, was it, did they go into any kinda more current kind of, some of the ideas about it? I'm trying to remember. I like, they taught us the anatomy of the nervous systems and how that all works, but, and who knows, maybe I missed today, but it didn't seem to be like an overarching theme in, in the curriculum. Right? Yeah. And, and that's, and that's not surprising either. I mean, but it's always funny though if you think about it, right? The number one reason why people come to see us is cuz they hurt, they have pain. Yeah. And the one thing we learn the least about is pain. That's such a good point. And it's so true. Yeah. Like you get touched on it, like you have your different modality courses and they're like, oh, for pain you do this. Oh, for pain, you do this. But you're like, but I need to, I wanna understand pain. Cause if I don't understand pain, understand. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what's happening with them, like physiologically, like yeah, there wasn't much. Yeah. There they didn't really talk about the processes of that. So yeah, that's probably been my biggest frustration with this past, this first year of, of practicing was just reteaching myself basically how to do my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Which I'm sure lots of people experience. Oh, we all, we all do. I think it's just part of normal. Yeah, normal. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Practice or normal, kinda professional development. Yeah. And that's the thing too, is I'm, yeah, you don't, I don't expect anyone to like, throw any, any specific students or teachers or, no, no, no schools under the bus cuz it's not about bashing the, the system or bashing the stakeholders or whatever. It's just exploring like, what's your experience like and. Based on what you learned versus where you are now and you reflect on, you think, yeah, there's gaps, which is really what this Yeah, huge gaps. Very important gaps I found, especially when it came to chronic pain. We, um, the message about that was, so they're just gonna be maintenance. Like, people who have chronic pain, they're just seeing you for maintenance. Um, and there wasn't any talk of like how we can, like, reframe thoughts or like their, help them relate to their pain in a different way that might, you know, help them break out of that cycle briefly, or, yeah, there wasn't much talk of that, but yeah. I'm glad that, I think social media is helping, um, get that message across more clearly. Oh, for sure. I would say social media. I mean, if, if someone wanted to do a PhD in pain science, you could probably just do it on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, and you'd have all the papers. It's, it's crazy how much information is out there. I think what happens for some of us is, is we kind of get stuck on these little bubbles of like, oh, everybody must be thinking this way. And because, you know, the way those algorithms work is they like, you know, you showed up as somebody that I should follow on Instagram and these other, some other people I'm interviewing showed up because I don't know why they, they, there's certain things that are feeds that, or certain connections there that it shows up. And so you get, you get kind of pigeonholed, I guess, in with these other people that are kind of thinking and saying the same things as you. So you feel everybody's doing it, but then when you take the big zoom out approach, you realize, oh, that's not really the case actually. We're, we're the, we're the minority still. Yes, we're a growing minority, but we're still small for sure. And that is a great point. I do intentionally follow some people who I don't totally agree with their views in the industry for that reason. Just so I know what people might be coming to me with, like what they might have been told and yeah. That's really smart. Yeah. That's really smart. Yeah, it is. It is very easy to get pigeonholed though. Oh yeah. And suddenly it's your whole feed or people that agree with you. Yeah. And yeah, you stuck in that echo chamber. We're like, I'm amazing. I know everything. Rather than there's a couple people I follow, um, not on Instagram cuz they're like, uh, I don't know, they don't have Instagram accounts. Um, but I follow 'em on Twitter and on Facebook and they definitely challenge what I like to be comfortable with and I find it, yeah, same thing. Super useful because it makes you really check your own biases and reflect on, Hmm, maybe I should think about this differently or reconceptualize what I'm saying or how I'm thinking. Because, you know, there's another, there's another opinion over here that could be less wrong than the one I have. That's really important. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. One of the accounts that really, uh, kind of pushed me to start looking into things a little bit more was I, I'm gonna butcher his last name. Aaron Al. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Him. Um, the first video I ever saw of his was. Um, I can't remember his exact wording, but it was, I, I used to think the SOAs was really important and here's why I no longer think that. And there was so much emphasis in school, put on SOAs, SOAs, SOAs. And so I watched that and my brain just shut off. I was like, hang on, what, what is that? And then I, I listened to it and I was like, no, that makes a lot of sense. Yes. Um, yeah. And there's been other people I, uh, physios, I follow a lot of physios, um, who speak about pain science and that sort of thing. And I find I found that very, very helpful. Nice. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Aaron's great actually. I'm hoping to have him Onk. I'm hoping That'd great. As a guest. Yeah. Cause I, I wanted, obviously I'm focusing on massage therapy cuz that's what I, I want, I wanna have some other people that are not, uh, just to people like us who are, who are really challenging. A lot of those Really. Yeah. Held chiropractic. Narratives. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's great because he is making pushes even in our, like, in our industry, even though he's a chiropractor. So yeah, for sure. That's exciting. Stay tuned everybody. Hopefully, hopefully he'll be on here. I know he is a busy guy. Oh, definitely. So when you, you talked, you said you learned a little bit about pain science, learned about biopsy psychosocial. Did, was, did the, the term or the topic of evidence-based practice ever show up in your schooling? Um, yes, but I think they were referencing old research. Okay. So technically evidence-based, but no longer relevant. Um, like posture, like we got a lot of the tell people not to sit like bananas or they'll, their spine will curve, you know, that sort of thing. So, um, yes, but no, I don't know. If not current. Yeah, not current evidence for sure. Yeah. Did you guys have like a research course at all in school? We did have a research course, and I was very thankful for that. Uh, I went to school through Covid, so that course was online. Unfortunately, I think it would've been nice to be in person and do a little bit more. I just found, um, I found online schooling very difficult, so I think it would've been nicer if we could be in person, but obviously that wasn't possible for the time. But we did have a research course, yes. Oh, that's good. Yeah. The, yeah, I couldn't imagine what it would've been like, like going to school during the, the covid times. It would've been so hard. Yeah. Yeah. So we didn't, we got like three weeks of summer, I think after our first year, and then we had to come back in and like catch up on clinic hours. And basically what we did was we did all of the theory stuff we could do online, but then we still had to go in and do practical, because you can't learn massage therapy over a computer. No. If we did that and Yeah, exactly. Um, most of us made it through. Some didn't. That's a, you know, they're, they're doing their own thing now, but, um, most of us made it through. And one piece. Yeah. I'm assuming you have like a, do, do you have like a, a practice at a clinic right now or do you work at your house or, yeah, I'm at a clinic. I'm, um, an independent contractor. Nice. My, um, my boss is amazing. Like I'll talk him up all day every day. I think it's as close to being self-employed as I could be without running a clinic or running my own business. Um, yeah, and I, I don't plan to stay in Winnipeg forever, so I think I'm, I'm very happy with the setup I'm in right now. That's great. What kinda sport do you get from, from your, from the, the, your, your, your owner, the guy that you work with or work for? Like is he, how does he feel when you like, bring up some of your, you show'em some of your videos or you talk about some of the evidence stuff? What's the response you get? Yeah, I was talking to him about this last night actually. Um, uh, I had, I had edited a reel that I knew was gonna be controversial, but then I forgot to save it, so I didn't end up posting it. And I told him, I was like, oh, maybe it was for the best, like, maybe, maybe it wasn't ready. Or maybe the, my Instagram wasn't ready for it, but, and he's like, oh no, you're telling the truth. So he's, he's very supportive with that. Um, as far as I know, I know he's gonna listen to this, so John, if you disagree with me, feel free to, to reach out. We can have a chat. But no, he's, I think he's very supportive. Oh, okay. Well that's good. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to have those, those uh, colleagues and people that are close to you to kind of reflect some of those ideas on, have discussions with them. And it's nice, obviously if they agree, but it's, sometimes it's nice if they don't agree cause then you can, you know, practice your discussion skills. Always like discussion, not argument. Cuz you're not necessarily trying to prove a point, you're just trying to be like, here's something to think about. Yeah, definitely. That's great. That's great. Yeah. So I guess one thing that you, you were saying, uh, we were chatting about off air before was, uh, the engagement you get from Right. Uh, people on your stuff. Do, do you wanna share or talk a bit more about, about how Rmg Sure. Feel about what you post? Definitely. So I, um, I haven't gotten a lot of backlash or any harsh criticisms really. Some minor ones, but nothing, um, that's like, no one's been like, you're completely wrong, that sort of thing. But I, I have kept my posts in, in my opinion anyway, pretty tame from maybe what I might be posting in the future. I don't know. But, um, cause I want people, I want it to be palatable. I want people who have a different opinion to still be able to hear that without feeling attacked in what they're doing. So, um, but I have noticed less engagement from RMTs since I've started, like, Push, like dipping my toe in the water a little bit with maybe more controversial content, so they're not saying anything directly. Um, but that is something I've noticed. And maybe that's just Instagram's algorithm, hard to say, but that is, yeah. One thing I've noticed, less comments, that sort of thing. Right. But you're not getting anybody, you know, private messaging you or like freaking out on your, on the, on the comment threads about your stuff? No, no, not yet. Anyway. Um, I, you know, the, the bigger the account gets, I, I'm, I'm anticipating it, but um, yeah, with time, that's okay when it happens. Yeah, it'll probably happen. Nothing crazy yet though. Sorry. Nothing crazy yet though. Nothing crazy yet. It's been pretty, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I would say probably one thing will happen is you'll do a video that you don't even expect and it's gonna go viral and you're like, and you'll think, oh geez, like that. I did not expect that kind of response and. There you go. And then it's gonna go, it's gonna go all over the place. So yeah, every time I hit post I'm, is this the one, is this the one that's, yeah. That's hilarious. I've been lucky so far though. Everyone's, yeah. Very nice. And if they disagree, they've been disagreeing quietly, which, which I'd like them to, to chat with me, but Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. They're not that they have to, but Yep. Your videos are pretty, they're pretty kind, I guess. Like they're just, you're, they're, they're fun, but they're not overly like destroying anything specific. No, no. Because I think people, no matter what they're doing, massage, our goal is to help people and they're like, we're doing that in the way that we best know how, or that we were shown how to, so I can't fault any r m T for doing, you know, like textbook treatments. Like we were taught in school because that's what they were taught, you know? And I think that's such a, that's such a great, uh, point to make Julie too, is that, you know, sometimes yeah, we challenge or maybe we're like, you know, making fun at, you know, some of the things we learn and stuff. But I guess if we, if we, we can't expect that everybody's gonna be where we are. Like each one of us seeming like individually, like where I am, where you are, where other people are, everyone's gonna be a different stage of their personal, professional, you know, life. And they're all, everyone has their own sets of knowledge and stuff and, you know, and I think it could become very difficult for, um, people to, and this is my experience anyways, that when people are present or presented with a different narrative or with a different understanding about what they really hold true to them or tight to themselves mm-hmm. Once they, once they're, that is challenged, sometimes people feel like it takes its very personal attack on them. Whereas's the idea. Attacked not the individual. So I think that's the thing is oftentimes what happens is when, when you're doing these things, it's you're attacking ideas, you're not attacking people. And even if someone has an idea, which may not be, what I always say is the term I like to use is defensible. It's not a defensible idea, but it's still what you were taught, right? So if that's what you're taught, then you know, and that's what how you practice then, then you know you're doing the best you can and you're doing what you think. Exactly. So, yep. And I think when we take courses and when we go to school, we trust what we're being told because we're humans. And our instinct is just to kind of trust the information that's being given to us. And like when I went to school, I assumed it was all updated research. You know, I, because you, you're paying this institution to, to provide you with hopefully relevant knowledge. So, um, no, and it's a, it's a, a whole other full-time job keeping up with research and, and updating your own knowledge. So I, I, I wouldn't blame anybody for not doing that. I just hope someday, um, We can find a way to, to get the curriculums updated and stay updated. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's, that's, I mean, that's been my goal. I mean, it's funny when I fir, I wrote my first, I published my first blog in 2016 and it was called mm-hmm. Something about time for curriculum change for massage therapy. And it was basically a call to action. And it's funny that 17, 18, 9 21, 22 we're going on like seven years now since that was published. And, and it's funny cuz that was the first blog I published and I think that one was shared and discussed and, and I had received so much feedback, some positive, some really negative. Uh, but it was interesting to see that when you know that that desire for change is still there amongst other RMTs, like at the time I felt like I was the only one. But other people I talked all the time like, why isn't the curriculum updated? Why isn't the curriculum updated? And I think, well, you know, I know it's a huge job, but some, some of the stakeholders need to, to, to get on board and just do it. I don't know who it is, but it's gotta be somebody. Well, I know from, I know like, well, it depends in unregulate provinces to, I mean, it's really kinda up to the schools. The schools could do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. But I know when the regular province is, it's more difficult. Definitely. Yeah. What was the general reaction to that article that you published? Generally? It was good. Right? I think, I think it was good. I mean, uh, I had, there were some people that were felt offended by it, uh, right. Basically because I was challenging some of the kind of modality, empire type belief stuff and the postural structural stuff. Uh, but I, it was, I think most of the stuff I got, I, I was really good. I think on my website it's still, it might be the second or third most. Red blogs still after all these years. So it still, it's still pretty positive. Yeah. I should probably share it again. I usually share it every couple years. I'd like to see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll share it again. Um, and ok. Yeah, it's, it's, it's good. It, it was, it was positive. I think what happened though is, is funny, you know, back then, you know, six, seven years, nobody was talking in our industry, I shouldn't say nobody. Very, very few people were talking about like terms like pain science or evidence-based practice or, you know, bio psychosocial, all these kind of buzzwords now. Mm-hmm. They weren't really being talked about back then, and if and when they were being talked about, they were kind of being talked about, I'd say incorrectly. Right. You know, pain science was often viewed as a modality, as something you did. You, pain science, somebody, if you did pain science, if you were talking about pain science, it was all about explaining pain. Just like, oh, okay. So just like pain vomit. Which, you know, I think it's oftentimes how it came across, but that wasn't the intention. You bio psychosocial was supposed to be more of this like holistic looking at the whole person. But it was often, you know, back then, at least the way I experienced it, it was often talked about in bio psychosocial, like these three distinct domains rather than a domain overall, a big soup pot were all mixed together. Uh, evidence-based practice was often talked about back then about, uh, like research. Mm-hmm. It just had to be research, but evidence-based practice actually also involves your clinical experience and most relevant research and the person's own unique context. And so, but, so the terms were just starting to be used, but they were really misinterpreted. Misunderstood. And I know for myself too, during my learning journey, like it, I, I, if I look back, I was like, yeah, I didn't really understand them fully. And even now I still, you know, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, so, mm-hmm. Reaction. Yeah. Yeah. I still, I don't think I understand them fully if we're being completely honest. Like I haven't taken any specific courses on them. I'm just kind of doing my own digging and doing the best I can with that. Um, I think it was interesting that part you said about how they kind of, you motioned, you can't see that all of you listening podcast, but he kind of motioned when you said bio, like there was like a box that's bio and then psycho as another box in social. And it's almost like for clinicians, it's really hard to see people as individuals and like, um, like a gray zone of all of those things, rather than just putting them into more boxes. It just almost reminded me of, of like, we're looking for other like postural dysfunctions to fix. It's like, oh, their bio's off. We gotta fix that. You know? It, it seems like it was almost, it sounded like that's what you were saying, like we were almost going in that direction. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and I think what happened too initially is, yeah, so you, you were looking for the bio thing and then if, if the bio didn't work, then it was like, oh, well maybe just through thinking about it wrong, You know, maybe they're, they've got bad ideas in their head about pain, you know? Mm-hmm. I'm emphasize, I'm air quoting that is, is like bad ideas, meaning like, a lot of negative thoughts, beliefs, feelings, fears, uh, catastrophization about their pain was, was seen as these like psychosocial things. And they're like, okay. Then the intervention was we just gotta change their thoughts. And so that's where the pain, pain, splaining stuff kind of came on. Uh, and then I think people realize that, oh, wait, you, that doesn't work either because it's still too linear. It's still too narrow. You're trying to change someone's thoughts, police fears, ideas through education, but what if you, they do think differently about it and they still hurt. Mm-hmm. And what, then, then, then you're, you're blaming their thoughts, you're blaming their mind, you're blaming their consciousness for their pain rather than blaming their, their low back. And what's more problem, which is worse. Yeah. I would, it's worse, right? Thinking differently and, and, uh, yeah. Exactly. So a lot of the, the negativity that happens, I think because of the pain science stuff or was happening, it might be getting a bit better now. I dunno, uh, was that, was tend tended to be the misunderstanding of it. Mm-hmm. No doubt. I would say a personal goal that I've been working on the past couple months is saying less to my patients. Cuz I've definitely been guilty of spewing pain science. And especially when I first graduated I was very like, assessment, we gotta fix your spine, you know, all that stuff. Um, uh, and I've, I've, people seem to like it when I say less about pain science and all that sort of thing. So that's what I've, that's what I've been doing and working on and finding ways, um, just to listen to them. Um, cuz they'll tell you what they need a lot of the time. Brilliant. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I, I, I would say that a lot of us and myself included would when you realize that when you say less, you actually do more. Exactly who would've thought One of my favorite, uh, quotes is a Winnie the Poo quote, which is, uh, doing nothing is the best of best doing nothing is the best way of doing something. Something like that. There's a quote I like, I love, it's like just basically doing nothing is the, is is better. And I like that. It's amazing. And you know what? It makes my job a lot less stressful now that I know I don't have to put someone's vertebrae back in place with my hands. It's so empowering. Right. I love my job so much more now. Yep. Totally. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny right when you start to, when the more you learn, you realize the less that you have to do specifically. So it's complex Exactly. Information, but when you understand it mm-hmm. It actually makes your job easier cuz you can just be, explore and, you know, be curious and try some different things and see what works on this person on this day. And you know, definitely it kind of gives you more, I think gives you more options. Which is great. Yeah, I, I would agree. Um, I find it interesting with different people that come in, cuz some people really resonate with that and they like, when I'm flexible and I'll say, we can try this, I'm not sure how it's gonna go. They really like that and they're like, thank you for being honest. Um, and they're very appreciative of that. But then there's other people that have been seeing, I'm, I'm just gonna use this as an example. No hate to Kairos, but they've been saying they've been seeing their chiropractor for 20 years to put their hip back in. And then they come and see me and we start talking and I, and I go into that exploratory state and they're like, it's just immediate. No. Like, it's almost rejection. Um, yeah. So it's interesting how how different people will respond differently to, to different things. They're individuals. Yeah. And not, and not a set of symptoms. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something thing that's really, really great for, to hear you being in somebody who's, is relatively new to the profession, to, to understand that yeah. Every person that comes to see you is gonna be different. Mm-hmm. So the treatment for them is gonna be different. And some people maybe want that exploratory, some people maybe want that very specific thing because that's what they've been told. And even though you think that's bullshit, uh, you know, for them maybe that's, uh, you know, that's what they need that day. And as long as they're, it's, they're not, uh, suffering, then is that right or wrong? Exactly. And if part of that, that's been hard for me to wrap my head around on this journey, um, if they think it's gonna be effective, it'll be more effective than something they think won't be effective. So yeah, there's a fine line to, to walk there as well. For sure. Yeah. And there's some cool research actually on that where they look, where they've looked at people that, you know, what kind of treatments should they prefer, and then if they get that treatment, their outcomes are better then if they've something else. Uh, yeah. So that's, that's pretty cool. Lemme talk about another podcast. Talk about some of that, that research on, uh, patient preference. Cause it really is what I, okay. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That's on my, on my list of things to maybe explore. We'll see. Yeah, the list is huge. My brain has got so many things. You could go forever, right? Yeah. Which is good. I was talking to, uh, a woman the other day who's a business colleague, who, who's gonna help me out with some of this stuff. And, uh, she was saying that, uh, um, she's like, well, like how often, how often did you wanna do your podcast? And I was like, like, she's like, do you have like a timeframe? I'm like, I have enough content here. I could do this. Probably release an episode every week for like three years, right? She's like, oh my gosh. She's like, that's, that's a lot. I was like, well, it a lot, there's a lot of stuff to talk about. Lots of stuff to talk about. See if I can keep up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you talk, kind of talking about your journey into, to the skepticism and, and into the myth busting. Uh, was there like a specific moment or, uh, an event or something had happened where you're like, this doesn't make sense anymore. Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was a few, one, a few that stand out more than than others, but it, it kind of started in school actually. Um, and unfortunately it manifested more as imposter syndrome. When we were like doing palpations for like e r s and f R s, I was like, I can't feel anything or like with certain special tests, um, uh, like feeling like sac rotations and stuff. I was like, I can't feel anything. I don't see anything. So I kept very quiet about it cause I thought it was me, unfortunately. Um, so that was one, that's kind of where it started. And then when I started getting into clinical work, I was noticing, obviously nobody was coming in as like the pi picture Perfect textbook example of, of what they were experiencing, of course. Um, so there was that. But then also when I was like applying these treatments that I was supposed to be applying for their specific dysfunction, it didn't really matter. What I did like in terms of treatment, like with specific, like if I missed, cuz I'm new, right? I'm gonna forget things. If I'm, if I forgot to treat a specific tissue, um, it didn't matter. They still felt better after. So that made me go, Hmm, interesting. Okay. And then I took lymphatic drainage level one. Um, and they talked very briefly. It wasn't even like a, a main point of the course, but they talked about how the lymphatic system deals with inflammation. Like, it, it, um, a little process inflammation in your body. And then it was just like, inflammation causes pain. Massage therapy sometimes can cause inflammation depending on the techniques. And I was like, okay, whoa. Like that's something's going on here. And then I found Aaron, um, and then it just kind of spiraled from there. I'd say. Most people there, there is an event or a, a series of events where things just don't add up and they don't make sense. So definitely. Yeah. Specifically it was the, yeah, the in, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no. Go ahead. Go ahead. No. Okay. Okay. Um, specifically it was the inflammation piece cuz I remember in massage therapy there was a lot of talk about how inflammation is bad and can cause a whole bunch of different, like, ailments and stuff, but then other techniques we were doing, they're like, this causes inflammation, but like, good inflammation. And I'm like, what? You're contradicting yourself. Like what does that mean? So, um, yeah, that piece really, I almost left massage therapy if I'm being completely honest. Like, it was a real catalyst moment for me. I almost went back to university this fall cause I just, I didn't know how I could do this job and be honest to people, but thankfully I figured it out and it's going well. Now it's, it's, it's, uh, yeah, I'm back on track. But, um, yeah, it was really, uh, difficult to navigate for sure. And that's funny that you make that, that there, you made that association, right? Because Yeah, we know, we understand the neuroscience, right? We know that inflammation, synthesizes, nociceptors mm-hmm. Which transmit noxious to mili and blah, blah, blah. And more, more of that's going on than the more likelihood we are to experience pain. Yeah. But how is your body supposed to differentiate between good inflammation and bad inflammation? It doesn't make any sense. But that is a, a belief, that's a myth that's perpetuated. And probably most people that you went to school with might not have, they may not have thought about that. They might have been like, oh yeah, there's good inflammation, bad inflammation. Like a lot of people gonna put those pieces together. So that's, uh, that's interesting that you were, you were able, able to do that. Yeah, I had a really good instructor for lymphatic drainage level one. Yeah. Yeah. And they put the pieces together for you. Definitely, I remember I was sitting in the class and it was only like a four day course. Like it was, it was an intense four days, but it was one day we were just kind of chatting and she was just explaining like the basics of how of, of lympho so we can explain that to our patients. And she was talking about that and I was like, wait, doesn't massage cause inflammation sometimes for, so, and she was like, Hmm. And you could see she had kind of like gone down the same, uh, thought path and was like, yes, it does. Isn't that interesting? Um, yeah. So I'm, I'm very thankful that I, I took that course. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and then the thing is too is right, so once you get rid of, or once you looks like get rid of it, once you get rid of the inflammatory or inflammation kinda narrative, it really changes I think how you, how people treat. Because you realize, okay, if this person's in pain say's an acute injury or whatever, or there's, you know, uh, and then there might be some inflammation there. Maybe some of it isn't the surface, so we can see maybe some of it's. Deeper structures and we can't see that. It doesn't make any sense to go in there and piss it off anymore because what we're gonna do is we're gonna add more inflammation to an already inflamed area, which is gonna make it more sore. Exactly. It's logically makes no sense. It doesn't, if you think, if you actually think about it for two seconds, you're like that. No, no. It's contradictory. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. That feels really good to hear other people say that. Oh yeah. Sometimes I feel like, um, exploring this side of our industry is very isolating. Even though there is other people talking about it still, there's lots of people that are not, and I know aren't super crazy about it, so it feels really good to, to hear that from other people. Oh yeah, yeah. I know. You're not alone, Julie. There's just, there's just not enough of us, but, uh, you're not No, no. I know. I'm not alone. It, um, yeah. I just don't get to talk about it very much, so I'm, this is good. There you go. This is your, this is another platform. Hopefully this, uh, hopefully this podcast will be shared widely. And that's actually one reason why I didn't want to do the podcast is because, It's, uh, social media. Not everybody's on social media. Not everybody reads blogs, you know, but it seems like, you know, if you have enough content and on, and similar on enough platforms, you'll, you'll hear more people will hear your voice or hear your message. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully this one will be be people will listen to this and be like, oh, I need to learn more about that. That doesn't make sense to me either. That would be really cool. Yeah. Yeah. And it's okay if it doesn't make sense. I feel like that's not encouraged enough. Like, um, the general sentiment I got from people was, this is how you do things and if you question it, then you're not doing your job. Like this is how you do your job. Like this very specific, rigid set of rules. So, Yeah, I hope we can encourage people and let them know it's okay if they're having questions. Um, and I have lots of new grads in my dms being like, uh, what's going on? I'm like, it's okay. Do what, do what you can. You know, that's, that's my message. Like, don't freak out. It's okay. You'll figure, you'll figure out your groove in time, but yeah. That's great. Well, that's great that people feel comfortable enough to reach out to you as well. It means that you're, you're not, uh, threatening. Right. But you're like, oh, look, she's, yeah, she's saying some stuff, which I don't understand, but let, let me reach out to her and see if I can find out more. I try not to be threatening. Yeah. Um, I know. Yeah. People are really identi, they hold their jobs close to them and, and they see it as part of their identity. Um, so if you're Yeah. Coming for their beliefs, like you said before, like they, it almost feels like you're coming for their identity and something that they, um, identify with really strongly so it can feel personal, even though, even though it's not. Yeah. And I think that's, so that's a really important. Point that you made there is that, yeah, it's not personal. It's, it's not an attack on individual. It's, it's just, you know, uh, the thing that's really important is for people to understand that no one is ever disputing your outcomes. If you're doing anything to somebody and people are getting better, then that's not, that's, we're never, no one's ever saying that's useless. No one's ever saying, that's garbage. No one, no one's ever saying you're a bad therapist. But maybe the rationale or reason for why you got those outcomes is, is the thing that's, uh, under dispute or, uh, for sure, maybe defensible. And also when you realize that some of those things that you think, or, or say in a certain subset of the population that could potentially make them feel worse or leave them along a, a path of more disability than they need. And, and that's the, the most important thing is to realize that, hey, we all make mistakes. No one's intending to, but if you, if you're kind of working from the incorrect narrative, you might be making people feel worse. Yeah. Which isn't, it's your population they want. No, yeah. I don't think there's any massage therapist that wants to make people feel worse. Um, so yeah, my hope is that people can just stay open and I hope that we can just help people upgrade language. Yeah. And like you said, the narrative that we're, that we're telling people. Yeah. That's super important. That's my bias anyways. That's, that's, that's kind of the most important thing is, is changing our stories. Cuz once we once, uh, we change your story, it changes like how we think. Mm-hmm. It's gonna impact what we say, which is gonna impact what we do and that's gonna impact how people feel. Yeah. I would stand behind that statement forever unless someone could tell me I'm wrong, but I've never had anybody tell me that. So, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did have somebody say to me, um, it was a conversation I was having with some colleagues and I, I told them that same story I told you. I was like, it didn't seem to matter what I did. People still felt better after. And they were like, but for how long? Like that was the, that's the question I always get is like, but for how long do they feel better? It's like, well, how long do your people feel better for? It's, it's varied, you know? Um, like yeah. So that was, I guess, yeah, that remind me of the little bit of backlash I've gotten. Yeah. Their assumption is, um, my clients aren't gonna feel as good for as long as their clients because I'm not doing a 30 minute assessment anymore necessarily. Right. You're not a specific narrowing Exactly. Into that spot. Yeah. So therefore you're not, correct. Correct. Yep. Yeah. It's funny that you said that thing about, uh, doing, like doing something wrong or treating the wrong side, whatever. People still got better. And my early in my career, I was really heavily involved, like really into like, like fascia and structural integration and I was like, that's what I need to do. And that's the ticket, that's the, that's the magic technique. And, you know, some people got better and some people didn't. And, but I remember taking some courses and they were very, very, very specific about how you had to help assess and move. And I remember being like, I like thinking I could feel stuff, but I was like, is that just my mind? Am I just pretending I'm feeling it? Like I don't, or like everyone else looks like they're doing it and they can get it. So maybe I'm, I can pretend too. And then you kind of like, you kind fake it. But I remember people coming into clinic and, and doing treatments on 'em and like following the completely wrong protocol that we, the course and sometimes they got better and sometimes they didn't. Yeah. And it, it stopped. Yeah. It starts to not make sense. I don't really understand like, I, I treated wrong side or I went the wrong direction, or I pulled the wrong way and they still felt better and that was mm-hmm. You know, when you think back you think, oh, it's cause I didn't really understand how manual therapy actually impacts, you know, the neuro immune system and how all this stuff function that was, that knowledge was incomplete. So anyways, it's, it's interesting when we think about, Our, our journey, uh, and to it is being skeptical. Yeah. And it's too bad, uh, because manual therapy I think is so beneficial and so valuable, just not for the reasons that we're telling people. It is. Yeah. So there's lots of benefit to it. I just wish we could um Yeah. Spread the truth about it. Yeah. More than just, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There is a lot of, actually some really interesting research out there on like the power of touch. But yeah, it's, none of it has to do with the specific tissues and things. It's all about the, you know, these kind of bigger effects, contextual effects and, uh, you know, the connection. And, uh, I know how like certain receptors respond to pressure and it's pretty neat. Mm-hmm. It's, we'll, we'll talk, I'll talk with that. Another podcast. I think I'll probably go into some of that. Manual therapy research stuff. Sounds good. Yeah. So one thing I was, I was thinking about too, I was wanted to get curious about is, um, obviously the, you know, you use your, your platform pro predominantly for, you know, kind of challenging long held beliefs and stuff. Yeah. Why do you think that's important? Like, who's your intended audience for, is it other RMTs or is it patients? Clients? I think it's, I think it's both, which an Instagram strategy coach probably wouldn't recommend. So I've spent time thinking about that, like, who do I actually wanna target? And I think it's both because I have like some of my patients on there and I have other RMTs that follow me. So I, I think I'm trying to make it as accessible for as many people as possible. Like for whoever wants to listen, I want them to be able to understand what I'm talking about so that I. Um, for patients specifically, so that when they're looking for a practitioner, they know a little bit more about what they're looking for or if they're getting told by a practitioner, it's like, you're gonna have back pain forever. Maybe they already know that's not necessarily true. That sort of thing. Um, and for RMTs, I guess I wish I, I, I don't know if I had, um, a solid reason for why I was doing it more other than I was annoyed that it wasn't more talked about. Um, and that kind of gave me a platform where I felt like I wasn't immediately being interrupted with backlash. Yeah. Or maybe I would get that class, but it would, they'd have to listen to the post and read everything I had to say first before they Yeah. Made the comments. Yeah. Yeah. How, how often do you post? Do you try and do once a week or a couple times a week? Oh, I, it fluctuates a lot. I'm not the most consistent for sure. I would love to do. Three times a week. It ends up being, some days I'll go five days in a row and then I won't post for two weeks. Which again, an Instagram strategy coach probably wouldn't recommend, but you know, I'm not trying to get like a huge, a huge following. Um, if it happens, it happens. It's, you know, people are finding it gradually, but um, yeah, it differs. It differs on the week. I think a slower organic growth is, is probably better, healthier anyway, rather than Yeah, most of post right away. Yeah, there's definitely been times, I don't know how some of those accounts that post like multiple times a day. I don't know how they do it. I sometimes feel myself getting a little bit burnt out by it, and so I take a step back, but I can't even imagine if I was lining myself up to post three times a day. It's just, oh, that's a lot. It's a whole other job. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. When you're, when you're in, if you think about like, if you want to do things other than like your massage practice mm-hmm. All this other stuff is, is probably just as time consuming if not more time consuming, I would say more. And you're thinking about it all the time too, right? All the time. All the time, yeah. Which is fun. Like I do, I do enjoy doing it. Um, but when I'm, I'm not enjoying it, that's when I kind of put it on the, on the burner for, for a week or so, and then I think about something that I wanna post and then, and then I'll do it again. So it stays enjoyable for me. Um, and if it ever got to the point where, you know, I took a break and I still wasn't enjoying it, I would probably stop. Yeah. Because, yeah, I, I like what the point you said, you said, you know, you did it cuz you were annoyed and that, that's so common for a lot of us. And I remember for me, when I first wrote that my first blog, uh, and was, was cause I was annoyed and I first started teaching I so annoyed courses. I, I was just annoyed. I was like, how, how, how come nobody else knows this information? Like, am I, am I the one that doesn't know anything like, Maybe I'm the one that's wrong, but, and exactly. Yep. You get, you feel kind of annoyed and so that kind of internal struggle of mm-hmm. You know, there's this knowledge, but no one knows it and why dot I know it. Ah, I gotta find a way to get this out. And then, so everyone has their own strategy to get that out there, but it usually comes a frustration. Very much so. I felt like I was imploding before I started doing it, so it's been a really great outlet for me. Um, and it's introduced me to other people and even it's given me more knowledge, like through the people I've met. So it's been all in all more positive than negative for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah, it should be positive, right? I mean, otherwise what's the point of doing it? Exactly. Yep. Yeah, I felt, um, it, yeah. Other RMTs would always say like, to new grads, like, you can reach out, you can reach out, like if you have questions and stuff. But anytime I did it felt like I was just being brought back to the curriculum. Oh. So yeah. Yeah. Or they would say things like, I got, I get the sense that a lot of RMTs feel this way, but they don't know what to do with it. So then they like fall on what they know. Um, so I had people say things to me like, yeah, well, you know, not everyone's gonna present that way and, and just do what you can. So they would say things to like that to me, which is good, but didn't really help with that sense of like, I'm, we're missing a piece, you know? And, and that's just because I don't think they had that piece either. And they could tell something was, was off as well. But yeah, I think a lot of RMTs feel that way. You're probably right. I, I would agree with that. The knowledge translation piece is, is the hardest thing, is that there's all this information and new things maybe don't add up, but how do I translate that information into something that I do in my practice when someone comes, when I have a live human right here in front of me that's needs my help, what do I do with that information? I'm not really sure. So I'm just gonna go back to what I, what I know and that, that's the, the hardest part. And, and I know from my own journey, that was, that was very difficult to be, how do I use this information? And it took me years mm-hmm. And years. And you still, you're, like I said, you're always trying to be less wrong, uh, of trying to make the, to use this information in a way that is helpful and, you know, not just furthering. Outdated ideas or thoughts. Exactly. Yeah. I really hope, um, to take your course someday actually on like applying clinical knowledge. Oh yeah. It's on, it's on my list. Oh, good courses to take. Oh, good. Well, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I uh, I have lots of courses available, so if you Yeah, reach out if you have any, any questions about them. Happy to do that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so I guess we're, we're kind of, we've been going here for a while, which is good. We don't wanna go too long, cuz I don't know, sometimes when people are, listen podcasts, I don't, they go too long. People just go forever. You go forever. So, yeah. Cut me off at some point. Yeah. Which is great. This has, this has been, this been a really easy conversation, so I appreciate you being here. I guess the one thing just kinda be a couple questions before we, we finish off, and you don't have to rush through this, but you know, the, of the myths that you bust, the myths that you talk about on your, on your, on your Instagram page, what do you feel are the ones that are most important for RMTs to. Yet to understand. Yeah, that's a good one. Probably the one that I come back to every day in, in my clinical practice is trying to show people that they're not broken and being very careful with my language. So I don't communicate to them that something is perpetually wrong with them. I'd say that is huge and almost counterintuitive to the schooling a lot of us receive, because we are trained to look for something that's wrong with the person. Tell them what's wrong with them and say, I'm gonna fix you. Um, so figuring out how to navigate that and making people, or not making people feel like they're broken, I guess I'd say. Is one of the most important. Like you can make an argument for any of them, but, but that one comes up a lot for me. Yeah. I think that's, that's very powerful. The, uh, letting people know that they're okay and that pain is normal. Yeah, exactly. We all hurt, we all know what pain is. Cause we've all experienced everybody. Yeah. All of us. Yep. Yeah, there's, uh, a lot of great, uh, quotes and stuff that I, and, and things I've read over the years and papers on it. And, and a lot of the, the stuff that really comes, comes back to, in musculoskeletal medicine, one of the biggest problems is that we've, we've medicalized normal, normal, normal. Yes. Yes. I saw, um, yeah, I saw an article on that recently, actually. Yeah. I was like, I, I had never had a term for it before. Mm-hmm. Um, there was another one, patholog. Yeah. They used the word pathologizing as well. Pathologizing normalcy. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Humans are varied. We, um, Present in varied ways and everyone has their own life and experiences and how they relate to their pain is gonna be different. But everybody has pain. Like you said, that's the one commonality we can find. Um, and I don't think people know that enough because people don't talk about their pain cuz it's almost seen as like, it's shameful, like something's wrong with them. I don't want people to know I'm struggling. So I think, um, I think our world is getting more vulnerable as well, so I, I think that'll shift things as well down the road, like 50 years down the road or so estimation. But yeah. No, I love, I love that Julie, and I think, we'll, we'll just, we'll leave it at there. I think that's a great way to finish it, is basically let people know they're not broken. You're putting out the content out there. Uh, I'll keep liking it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through your, your, your page and see if I can share some of the stuff. Uh, yeah, that'd be great. Some of the, some of the links there and hopefully people will, will follow you and we'll start to, you know, maybe reach out to you or ask you questions and, uh, maybe you'll, you'll, I'm sure you will already have changed people's lives, uh, clinic. I hope so. Clients as well as, um, other RMTs that follow you. So it's great. Awesome. Thank you so much. This is awesome. Yeah. Well thanks and we will talk to you soon. Okay, perfect. Thank you for listening. Please subscribe so you can be notified of future episodes purpose versus is available on all the major podcast directories. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on your socials. If you'd like to connect with me, I can be reached through my website, which is eric purvis.com. That's e r i c p u r v e s.com. Or send me a DM through either Facebook and Instagram. I can be reached there at Eric Purvis, R m t.