Mythbusting with Lauren McLaughlin

This is an episode of my mythbusting series featuring Lauren McLaughlin, an RMT in Fredericton NB.

Lauren and I discussed her journey into scepticism and how she is trying to bring more awareness into popular unhelpful myths such as "no pain no gain."

When Lauren began her practice she quickly realized that the knowledge and techniques she learned in school were not working the way she was taught. This confusion and frustration motivated her to start searching for more answers because she wanted a more accurate understanding to better inform what she was experiencing with clients.

She emphasizes the importance of trauma informed care how she started using Instagram as a tool to communicate with her clients but also as a way to communicate more helpful messages to the RMT population.

If you would like to get in touch with Lauren, she can be contacted through her IG account under the name groundedmassagetherapy.

Connect with Eric:

www.ericpurves.com

https://ericpurves.lpages.co/podcast

FB: @ericpurvesrmt

IG: @eric_purves_rmt

Transcript

0:12

Welcome to episode three of Purpose Verses. This is another episode of my Myth busting series. In a few moments, you'll meet Lauren, who is an R M T in Frederickton, new Brunswick. Lauren and I discussed her journey into busting popular and unhelpful myths, and she tells us how she uses Instagram as a tool to communicate with her clients, but also as a way to communicate more helpful and more evidence-based messages to the RMT population. Lauren quickly realized the beliefs and techniques she learned in school were not working the way she was led to believe. And this motivated her to start researching and trying to find answers of different answers because she wanted more accurate knowledge to better inform what she was experiencing in the clinic. If you'd like to get in touch with Lauren, You. She can be contacted through her Instagram account under the name Grounded Massage Therapy. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Please share this on all your social media platforms. Thank you for listening. Well, hi Lauren. Thanks for being here today on my podcast. Hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I appreciate, appreciate you taking the time to be with me here today and to all the listeners. Um, I know we don't really know each other, uh, but this is really the first time we've ever chatter I've ever chatted in person. I know we've messaged back and forth on, uh, Instagram before, but yeah, the reason I reached out to you, I guess it was probably a few weeks ago now, was uh, I really, I was really. Interested by the, the videos you had put out on, on your Instagram page. Doing some, some myth busting and that really kind of piqued my interest. I was like, oh, this is somebody that would be perfect for, for this kind of series of episodes. And the one that I first noticed that really caught my attention was the one with you kind of dancing down the hallway saying massage doesn't have to hurt to be effective. That was, that was the, yeah. And then, you know, I, I kind of went through your feed and I saw you had another one when you were, uh, dancing on your massage table to Pharrell Williams. And kind of same thing about massage doesn't need to hurt. And, uh, I thought those were great. So I, I was really happy to see that somebody else out there was kind of, Challenging some of these narratives, these beliefs that are, that are very common in our profession. So, uh, we're gonna explore a little bit more about that today in terms of, you know, your motivation and why you're doing it and some of the other content you're putting out. But before we start, I guess I just would like, uh, you to tell us a little about, a little bit about Lauren and tell the audience who you are and where you are and Okay. What you do. Okay. Well thank you very much. Um, I'm glad you like the videos. I'm trying to make them kind of like lighthearted and fun and not so, you know, in your case. Um, well, I am from Frederickton, new Brunswick, and I actually studied massage therapy in Ontario. So I graduated in 2016 and then I moved back to Fredericton to start doing massage there. And I kind of got thrown into a position where I was working with, um, mostly veterans in my practice. And I noticed straight away that a lot of what I was doing, a lot of what I was taught wasn't really working, um, especially with this particular type of people. So that's kind of what, like got me off, let's say the path there and started studying more about like chronic pain and trauma and the nervous system and, um, just kind of exploring different ways to approach it. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Yeah. The, the veterans working with veterans is, can actually be pretty, pretty profound. Hey, because of the mm-hmm. Events actually that often will have led them to, to seeing you can be. It doesn't really add up when you look at what it, uh, what we learn as, as, as in our kind of core education. Somebody like that. And you think this doesn't make any sense, so it's interesting. Yeah. And the, the program that I was thrown into at my first, uh, that my first job was called, uh, working on Wellness, and it was, uh, Multidi multidisciplinary approach to PTs D Um, so it was basically like you would get massage therapy, you would get Terry, um, advice. Uh, there was physio, there was exercise. Um, and I just noticed that like whatever I was doing wasn't. Wasn't like the puzzle wasn't fitting together. All of the niches that I had been taught were not, uh, were not really working. So, um, then I decided that I was gonna try to dispatch off and find different approaches, and that's when I started studying. Um, cranial sacral therapy, but I started studying cranial sac, cranial sacral therapy, and then I thought, you know what? This is kind of like too far in the erection. So I'm basically, then I just started becoming really skeptical of everything and kind of started, you know, really doing more research on my own and trying to figure out like, where is my niche gonna be in this? And how am I gonna be able to create a practice effective for people dealing with chronic pain? Um, yeah. Nice. Did you, what did you find, what did you find about the, the crane cycle? Did you find it was a little too, like you said, it was too far in one direction, like it was too wooy? Is that what you Yeah. Um, I don't think it's too wooy because I really do believe in it, and I do think there is like a lot of, there's definitely something really prof in it. Started noticing with cranial sacral therapy was that there wasn't enough regulation or education around it and there definitely wasn't like a trauma informed piece to it. And I think that is the biggest part of what I started noticing in my own practice and in, um, like different courses I was taking. There just didn't seem to be trauma informed care. There didn't seem to be an approach that looked at the whole person. It seemed to be quite reductionist in most of the techniques. Um, so yeah. What I started finding was most effective was really sitting down, having conversations with people about where they're at and, you know, looking at the person in their life and where, where they are specifically in their healing journey. And, um, creating a connection, creating this environment. And, uh, you know, working with them from, from that angle as opposed to saying like, here's what I know. Here's what works for you. Here's how we're gonna do this. You know, kind of putting the clients in the seat. Yeah, yeah. Which is, yeah. And that's such a, it's such a, a good point. The, the. Particularly working with that population. Right. The, the whole like trauma-informed care is a, kind of like a term. I, I don't, I hate to use the word buzzword, but it's a, it's a thing you're starting to hear more and more and more about and mm-hmm. The importance of it. So I think it's something that I would love it for it to be something that is kind of making its way into our, into our kind of general lexicon and understanding and education so people realize, like, you know, how trauma impacts overall human. Makes such a, makes such a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's great that you're able to see that. And particularly with veterans. I worked with a lot of veterans too in my practice and, and, uh, yeah, the PTSD and, and the trauma and the, they went through was quite profound. And, you know, no wonder why Yeah. Not living their, their, their, their full life the way they want to and they're suffering. Mm-hmm. That's, yeah, that you're, and we're learning, we're learning more like that. It's kind of a buzzword, but we're learning more about trauma and they have like, The capital T and the tiny T trauma or little T trauma. And I think when we think of the word trauma, you know, we think of the veteran, we think of the soldier. But as we're learning now, um, trauma isn't so much about, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be these huge big life events that are so, so traumatic. I mean, oftentimes it is, but other times, you know, trauma is just a dysregulated nervous system and that's pretty common. Um, among the population, especially in the world we live in a. And, uh, we're just seeing that more often I think, than we realize when we're looking at the average person. And I think it needs to be, I think it needs to be more trauma-informed care across the board when it comes to massage therapy in general. For sure. And I, I would agree with you a hundred percent there with that as well, that you know, when you're dealing with a human, you need to be, you have to have the information, you have to, you have to have the, uh, knowledge in order to. You know, um, interact with them in a way that is, um, could be in their, in their best interests. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which is great. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't seen, I've seen a lot of people talk about trauma informed care, but I don't know if I've seen anybody that is actually like, I don't think I've seen any courses being offered on it. I could be wrong. No, I would. I would love to see a course offered on it. Uh, like especially tailored to, um, healthcare professionals like physiotherapists, massage therapists. Like, it just, it would nice if it was more, it would be nice if it was more commonplace. I'm really fortunate cause one of your friends is a, uh, a master's of social work and she owns a counseling business here in the city. So I kind of go to her for, just to bounce ideas off of and make sure that I'm. You know, ethically sound and, and what I'm putting out there and how I'm doing it. So yeah, that's a great resource to have for you. That's great. Mm-hmm. That's good. Uh, I guess, you know, one thing you know, before I, I would love to get into the, the theme of this is gonna, we're gonna kind of talk about some of the skepticism and, and myth busting, which we've kinda already touched on, which, which is, which is great. But, um, I would, you, you were talking about, uh, when you, you, you said, start off by saying that, you know, the things you'd learned in school didn't really make sense anymore in terms of, uh, when you were, were working with these, with this population. Uh, I guess my, my, my question would be is like, Tell me a little bit more about your experience as an R M T student. You know, like what, what kind of gaps now looking back, cause you said you've been practicing for seven years. What kind of gaps mm-hmm or did you see in, in the educational program, um, that you feel, other than trauma-informed practice, I guess, that you feel, um, were missing? Yeah, I mean, not to sound like a broken record, but trauma-informed care, obviously, obviously. Um, I think, well in my program I went to, um, Sutherland Chan in, uh, school in teaching clinic in Toronto, Ontario. And they did a really, really heavy focus on, um, Like the science, which I really appreciate, and it is so, so important as a massage therapist to have such a strong sounding in science, anatomy, disease, you know, all the different types of, uh, ailments that can come upon us. Um, but what we didn't get a lot of experience in was just the day to day human interactions. Um, we had one class. I forget what it was called. I think it was called therapeutic relationships. And we would all kind of go in there and we would have these mock, um, interactions that you might have with like a, a client. And it was more around ethics and boundaries, I think. But had that class been maybe more tailored, real problems that you might encounter, um, I think maybe that would've been helpful. Because I did feel like I was kind of thrown out into the field after, after I graduated. I mean, mind you, that might have been because I got thrown into working strictly with veterans. Um, but I just didn't feel like I was properly equipped in terms of the more Hmm. Like, relational aspect of it, you know what I mean? Like the more, um, building rapport with clients and kind of. Getting to know the client more. It was more just about the science. It wasn't so much about with someone, you know? Right, right. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, it sounds yeah. Heavily focused on the science, and I would say, so you're learning all the anatomy, the physiology, your different mm-hmm. Pathologies, your techniques, your interventions, you're, yeah. And, and you're, you're looking at the person as a series of body parts rather than looking at the person. Yeah, and I don't wanna say that we didn't get that kind of education because I remember over and over again, one of my teachers kept saying, you know, whenever there was a question, the teacher would always have the same. And it depends. It depends. It depends. You know, it's always gonna be different. It's always gonna be unique. Um, so they did, you know, there's only so much they can do cause nothing can really prepare you for real life. But I think had the focus just been a little bit more on dealing with people. Than I would've felt better equipped. And I mean, you know, this was seven years ago and that doesn't seem like very long ago. But there has leaps and downs in research since then. So, um, you know, they were just working with what they had at the time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Suzanne. I wonder if the programs changed. Yeah, I, I'm not sure, I'm not familiar. I, I wouldn't know what they're doing there in, in Toronto, but, uh, I mean, I'm sure, I mean, it really depends a lot of times with the, it depends on the, on the instructors, it depends on who you get and, and it depends on, on what their motivations are in terms of what their knowledge base. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I never wanna like, throw on any of the schools or educators under the bus, cuz I always believe that people are doing the best knowledge that they have. But sometimes I too, I always, the reason I like to ask these questions is because I think it does. Draw a, um, a general story that, you know, most of us if went to school, like I went to school almost 20 years ago versus seven years ago versus, you know, people that are still in school now or just graduating. Um, there is, it does, there is a lack of, I think of preparing us for. The complexities of clinical practice and, and you know, I think mm-hmm. Which is a big ask anyway. It's a big ask. Yeah. And I think, you know what, if we don't have these conversations, if we don't say these things, we don't ask for them. We don't, you know, people listen to this and make a bit of a call to action, then, you know, then the things don't change, right? If you just stick with the status quo, then nothing's gonna change. And we always wanna try and be less strong. We always wanna try and be moving, moving forward as much as we can. I'm changing is, is, is to do so I actually, there was, uh, when I was doing my, I was just reading up on your webpage before doing this, and I looked up some papers that you had done and I noticed that one of the names on the paper that you wrote was actually one of my teachers. And she had taught, um, I forget what the name of the class was, but it was very much one of those classes where the, it was very controversial. The students were kind of like, oh, I don't know if this is what we should be learning. But I do think it was really important. It was kind of more philosophical and got everybody thinking outside the box. And I think it, uh, the only reason it was controversial at the time was cuz like I said, the course was really. Um, the program was really heavily weighted in, in science and more like anatomy and all that, so, yeah. Yeah. That would be mon that would be growing, I'm sure. I'm sure. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I've known Monica for a long time. She's, she's great. We, her and I used to teach. Yeah. We taught her a couple, two or three, uh, con Ed courses together in, in Toronto. Probably about, I loved her class six or seven years ago actually. Yeah, yeah. Monica's great. She, she's great. And, uh, I, I think, yeah, she's a very, very smart person, so yeah. You're very lucky to have her. Yeah. I really, really loved her. Yeah. I liked her class. So, I guess one thing too, just, you know, kind of just not to beat this to death with the school stuff, but one thing I, I'd be curious to know is oftentimes what ends up happening, at least, and this is just my experience, is when people kind of get in into practice and they start doing content out there, kind of like. Busting some myths or kind of doing some educational stuff, which might go against the status quo. I'm always curious about is that, you know, was that something that you ever introduced to in school? Like were you ever introduced to, to be skeptical or to think critically? Or is it something that came afterwards for you? I don't remember being encouraged to think that way in school. I think I've always been a huge skeptic, naturally, um, even when I was in massage therapy school. I mean, I've grown a lot since then, but, You know, we had an introduction to cranial sacral class, and I remember kind of rolling my eyes and thinking, oh man, you know, or whenever, you know, in massage therapy school, you tend to see a, a large spectrum of people. You tend to see people who are more like sports, rehab, blah, blah, blah. And then you tend to see the more people, um, who are more like the energy side of things and the more holistic. Side of things and I always sat really where? In the middle. Um, cuz I think they're both super beneficial, but, uh, yeah, no, I think I've always been really skeptical and I don't remember that being something that we really talked about. Um, in school, no. Yeah. Or were taught at all in school, really. Now that you mentioned that, like I said, just the only, the only course for that would've been even on the table or, or were, would've been encouraged was that class that I took with Monica. And I remember that class being kind of tense people. There was a lot of debates and uh, you know, people, so maybe that's why at the time it wasn't, uh, it wasn't taught cause it's kinda a trick. It's kinda tricky, right. So yeah, I'm always very encouraged when I, you know, when I hear, I meet instructors and, and the educational. System that are, are, are introducing that stuff because I think it is important because if we just believe everything we're told, then we just never really learned to think for ourselves. So I think it is important, but I do understand the difficulty with it because if you are in school and you are, uh, you're, you're folks on just passing your exams and, and passing your boards and getting out there, working in the public, and then someone is there throwing some philosophy at you or, or throwing some kind of critical analysis of the information and asking you to be skeptical. Then that really what that makes you do is it makes you challenge everything that you think you know, and that can be very uncomfortable. Lot of people, particularly when you're a student and you don't have that base of knowledge yet to really think, I dunno what to do with this. Yeah, exactly. And when you're in that position too, like when you're a student, you're in a very vulnerable position. I don't know if you remember massage therapy school, but it is kind of intense and you know, you're just trying to get everything together. You put the puzzle together, you're trying to get everything you know, in order in your brain. And then if someone comes in and starts, like you said, just shaking everything up, it's kind of hard to wrap your head around when you're already having your hard time wrapping your head around. Oh yeah. The whole concept to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. My memory of massage school was basically they just fire hose you in the, in the face with information and then you don't have enough time to really integrate it. And, you know, you're in school all day, every day, and then they kind of throw you in the public clinic. And then the stuff in public clinic I remember didn't really add up with the things that we were learning in school because everyone was different and, you know, it, it was, uh, it was hard. And, and I think if I go back and reflect on my own experiences in school, you know, it, it, the things that I would love for people to be taught, I think would be very difficult in the current system. Like I think you would need to. Reconfigure, recalibrate a lot of how the system, how the education is structured and yeah, probably maybe make it a little bit longer or maybe there's certain stuff you get rid of and you know, you add more of that interpersonal, that kind of person centered kind of care lens and dealing with humans and understanding trauma and all these things. And less focus on all the various modalities with their stories and more on like, how do I work with a human, I think would be. More beneficial. Mm-hmm. I agree. I feel, I feel like there was, um, there was so much, I remember we learned so much on, uh, different types of diseases and, uh, how, how that affects the body and how that impacts the body. And I remember being, it being really fascinating and really educational, but then at the end of the day it was like, okay, so how do we treat them? And the outline was always very similar. And I remember thinking, You know, this is really great and I'm glad that I have that knowledge now because it is useful, um, in the field, but, Like I said before, it just would've been nice if we had done more, um, interpersonal, like client-centered care as opposed to like the nitty gritty of the biology and stuff, you know? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe or maybe both. Maybe both would be better. Yeah. Yeah. Both, I think both would be great. I mean, that would be, I, that would be ideal, but, uh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Ideal world where we can always pretend we have this ideal world and we can create a curriculum that would. Make us even better. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that you had, um, kinda when you went to work and, and you were seeing these veterans and you were, and you were in these kinda multidisciplinary approaches to p s D type clinics, and you said that things didn't make sense or things didn't really add up. Um, can you be a little more, can you go a little bit more specific about that? Like some of the things that didn't add up, like what was not making sense to you? Um, well, I was, you know, fresh outta school, so I was just using all my, all my basic techniques, you know. Um, And they just, the body wasn't responding to them. Like, uh, any, anything other than very superficial, relaxing touch was creating more dysfunction in the client on average. I mean, not across the board, I mean broadly here, but I noticed specifically with, um, with P T S D and not just, you know, veterans, but those reporting to have ptsd, T S D, um, or, you know, high anxiety, mental health and stress. Anything where the, where the person appeared to be, you know, highly agitated or anxious, um, anything other than a superficial approach. Was not working. Um, so like I'm talking, you know, even just moving the neck or even just doing gentle stretching or any type of muscle engagement. Um, so that's kind of how I. Veered into cranial sacl. Cause I was like, I need lighter touch therapies to help these people. Like this is, whatever I'm trying here isn't working. Um, yeah. So then I just started to question everything I was taught, but then I noticed there were certain cases that those techniques do work on. Um, but definitely not with, uh, chronic. Um, well, I should say. Dysregulated nervous system is how I usually refer to it, because I mean, it can be many different things that create that. Um, so yeah, the lighter techniques is what I noticed started making an impact. And what I noticed is that after it took a lot longer, you know, in school days teach you, you know, six weeks, make a treatment plan, da, da, da, da, da. Treatment plans are out the window. Those, those frames do not work, um, with the, with this particular clientele at all. So I just started using very light touch therapy and just focusing more on creating safety and trust between me and the client. And only after, you know, when they're ready, which can be anywhere from a year to two years, honestly. I mean, it can be less than that too, depending on the person. But only when we've got safety and trust and good rapport are we able to actually start integrating some of the techniques that I learned in school, which blew my mind. Cause I was like, oh my gosh, I, I was like, I'm such a terrible massage therapist. Like none of these people are responding to any of the things I learned. Like it was kind of a little bit of a crisis for me. You know, right out the gate. But, uh, as I learned more about it, I, I, I kind of started to be like, okay, no, this is actually helping. It's just the timeline is very different than what I was taught, and that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. You can have it. Oftentimes people can have that crisis of like, I'm terrible, I'm the worst therapist there is. I dunno what you're doing. You know, and that's one way, sometimes they can go the other way too, where I, I've heard stories of therapists, like, they start blaming the person, right? They're like, well, you know, you're, it's like they start blam the patient, right? And, and that's like, that's even worse. But, uh, yeah, I, I really have no patience for that. I, I really don't like that, that that stresses me out. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's just a rite of passage as a massage therapist to think that you're terrible at your job at one point. I think so. I think, I think you have to have that humility that you are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Never gonna work for you. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That's, that's treatment. And you're like, Yeah, but that's really interesting. I mean, that you noticed that, you know, the lighter was, was better more often, like kind of doing the, the typical kind of, you know, what we learned in school, massage techniques, you know, weren't, weren't really, weren't making much of a difference. And then I, and I, I would say too that probably, and tell me if I'm wrong, be, but probably the reason was that was because you were less focused on the person. You're most more focused on like the tissues you were working. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, no, I was gonna say, so, so yeah, yeah. You end up, like you start to see better outcomes or better the person is experiencing better outcomes and then they're, uh, when you start focusing more on them as the human and what do they need here today versus, yes. A piece of meat that I'm just gonna do these things too. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So what, and uh, that's what. Sorry, go ahead Lauren. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say that's what led me into, in a cranio sacre world, which was very different from what I learned in school. Um, it was completely opposite everything I ever learned in school basically. And I remember thinking, how is this, how is this a modality? But, uh, but I did find it to be super effective with, um, With With the veterans specifically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're holding that safe space for them, giving them touch that was soothing rather than aggressive or whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So you went through this journey and you, you kind of, you saw this stuff that you know wasn't making sense and you went and kind of saw some lighter touch kind of interventions and you start to see that people are getting better and you start to realize that yeah, like these kind of 6, 8, 12 week treatment plans don't make sense for people with chronic. Conditions because they're chronic, which means they stick around for a long time or they don't get better. Hopefully they do. Mm-hmm. Now they stick around for a long time. Um, so when you started, uh, and I think off air, you said that you started creating your Instagram account in April of 2022. Uh, what was kind of your, your motivation for, for starting to put some of that myth busting stuff on there? Um, I just don't see very much of that in my city. Um, I live in f Fredericton, new Brunswick, and we do have a lot of rehab centers here and we have a lot of massage therapists here. Um, don't see, and again, bringing back the trauma informed care. I just don't see much trauma informed care here. And I've gone to a lot of different massage therapists in the city and I've had great treatments, but I'm not. You know, for some of us who are really sensitive or really nervous to be touched, I just wanted to create a space that, uh, people feel comfortable walking into if they have any trepidation or anxious or scared about it. Because I do know how powerful touch can be, um, not only for injuries or um, chronic pain, but you know, for mental health as well. And I think mental health is a, well, I know mental health is a huge contributor to chronic pain, and oftentimes people don't make that connection. So I kind of want to create a space that broadens the horizons of what massage therapy can do. Because you know, when you think of massage therapy, oftentimes we think of, you know, just gentle, soothing, kind of the spa, or we think of. You know, the sports rehab and I just wanted to create something that was kind of in the middle that incorporates both pieces where, yes, we can help you, but we're also gonna make sure it's really safe and you feel really good here. Um, so that was kind of my goal. And I also wanted to it to be very educational. Um, yeah. Nice. So is your plus massage therapy out of its box? Yeah. No, that's great. Right? Because I think massage therapy itself is oftentimes thought of as just. Just a series of modalities that we do rather than like a profession where we can help a wide range of people using a variety of different. Strategies or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And oftentimes when I tell people, you know, like people about certain things that a therapist can do, for example, abdominal massage or, um, jaw massage, if you're, if you're punching your jaw, like things that people wouldn't think about or, you know, call babies, you know, like, oh, I didn't even think of that. You know, um, it's just nice to have a place where I can spread the word a little bit more readily. Yeah. No, that's great. And it's, it's your own, it's your own platform so you can do whatever the hell you want. Yeah, I do like that. Yeah. Which is great. Right, which is great. So, one thing I'm curious about is, cuz you're saying, you said that there wasn't a lot of people, you know, really talking about that, that kind of stuff there, and you wanted to kind of break massage out of its box. What's the rmt culture like in New Brunswick? Like, is it pretty mainstream or is it still kind of viewed as this, like fringe or, or alternative profession? That is a really good question. Um, I don't know if I can speak to the culture here just because all I have is my own perspective, but it's just your perspectives fine. Yeah, yeah. From, from what I see, like, I mean, like I said, I went to school in Toronto and then I moved back here, so I don't have, um, I don't have, I don't have a lot of huge network of RMTs that I know here. Um, but yeah, it seems to be more mainstream. It definitely seems to be more, like I said earlier, there's either the spa kind of relaxation or there's the, the sports massage, um, like injury type deal. Um, but now that I say that, I do know a few massage therapists in the city that are more into the holistic kind of, uh, um, But that's, that tends to be more into like the energy work type deal. Right? Right. Um, but yeah, I would, I would have to say it typically tends to be more mainstream here. That's good. And you guys are regulated there now too, which probably helps cuz you have, you know, one of the Yeah. Regulated provinces and we, we were only regulated, I believe in 2016. It might been 2015. Um, but it's fairly new, right? So, I think we're still kind of struggling to find our place there and we're still trying to kinda, I mean, all massage therapists in can are still trying to fight for their right to be respected as health professionals. But, uh, you know, it's still new. There's a lot of, uh, RMPs here that we're grandfathered in. So it's, it's kind of a hodgepodge, I guess you could say. Um, different types of, yeah. Massage therapy approaches. And, and that's be expected too, right? When you have like a relatively new college that comes in and you know, the standards of what people are educated with and what their continuing education requirements are, professional development requirements, you know, are. Different. Right. Particularly for somebody that was educated a long time ago, you know, they probably come from a certain way versus people that are now are gonna come from a certain kind of educational background. So yeah, I could see that, that it would be, you'd have a a wide range of of of, of people, which can be good or bad. Yeah. Because the way always see it is, of course you need different flavors. You wanna have people on both ends of the spectrum and then people in the middle. Right? Oh yeah. There's gonna be a need for. Like the, the kind of more spa energy stuff. People like that, some people like that, like mm-hmm. You know, sport, orthopedic, you know, that type of approach. Uh, the thing that I would always like to see, it doesn't matter where you are, is, is if the base of knowledge at least had some similarity in terms of like, what does massage do? What is the. You know what, you know, trauma-informed care, evidence-based practice, understanding pain and understanding, like mm-hmm. Bio psychosocial influences. I mean, as if there was that base of knowledge, then people could take that base of knowledge and be like, okay, I understand this, so I'm gonna, but then they can go to one extreme or the other if they want you, as long as they came from that base of knowledge. What I tend to find though, yeah, is that, is that that base of knowledge is not consistent. It's kind of all over the place. And, uh, I know. When I, my experience teaching in New Brunswick was not as good as it has been in other provinces, and I got a lot, I had more pushback and more backlash teaching stuff that challenged the status quo in New Brunswick than I ever have to anywhere else in the world. Wow. I find that really interesting. Yeah, I do, I do see a lot of very differing ideologies. Um, like you said, did a really good job of describing like the different foundations that we come from. And I do see a lot. I do see that a lot for sure. Yeah. And yeah, new Brunswick is known for being a little bit like that. Um, kinda, yeah. They like what they know. So, uh, yeah, I can see that you would get backlash here. I haven't actually had. Uh, any backlash though? So I'd like to think we're evolving. Um, but I mean, I didn't teach a course, so Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that was actually one of the things I was curious about was what kind of, what kind of en engagement or what, like what kind of feedback do you get from people? Are they like, yeah, I keep doing this, or like, does anybody ever private message you and be like, what are you talking about? I don't have to beat people up, like, You know what, what kind of, um, I actually have not received any backlash, which is surprising. Cause that was one of the reasons that I was like, you know what? I do this, like, it's just gonna, I don't wanna stir the pot. You know? Um, but then I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna. I think this is important. I think people know that this is a service that they have access to in, in New Brunswick. Um, so no, I've been receiving really great feedback. Um, you know, a lot of, a lot of words of encouragement, a lot of RMTs in the city, even that I live in saying, you know, like, this is so great. I wish, I wish we did more of this. You know, so I, I do think that. People are changing, um, perspectives on massage therapy in general and healthcare in general. And I know trauma-informed care is such a buzzword these days, but. It is so important, and I think it should be the new norm, and I feel like it's going to be the new norm eventually. Um, or at least I hope it is. So, yeah. So yeah, I've, I've been getting a lot of great feedback on it, so I think something we need, you know. Yeah. Which is, which is great because I think the, the more people that are, are kind of, you know, educating the, the public and educating the profession clients, patients as well. I think the, the better off. Everyone's gonna be right Because Yeah. You know, I, I like the one you talk, I mean, the ones that I get that, you know, confirmed my kind of, I was like, oh, this is somebody that's, that's, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna talk to, uh, was the ones about it doesn't have to hurt to be effective. Cause that's a common narrative that like if someone's in pain, there's gotta be something wrong on their tissues. So the only way to fix them, fix 'em in air quotes is to beat them up. And, and we know that that's not necessarily the case in a lot of. Particularly with chronic issues. Yeah. Uh, you know, some people like hard touch, some people don't. But if that's your only go-to then mm-hmm. You might make people feel worse. And you probably saw that in your Yeah. Veterans and I saw that in all my years of clinical practice as well, that I took that same approach of just so trying to hurt people. Thinking I was doing them benefit? No, uh, no, it didn't. I know in there, I think that's a, an important, I would say that, you know, you asked me about backlash. The only backlash I ever received was from coworkers, uh, in multidisciplinary settings. And when I say backlash, I mean like, Healthy debate, you know, respectful conversation. Yes. That's, you know, that's what I can say. Um, like I can think of a couple physios I work with. You know who I would. We would, we were collaborating with this program and they would say things like, oh, I don't believe in that, or I don't, I don't agree with that, or what, and then we'd have a little bit of like a back and forth about it. Um, the only other backlash I would say I get is from clients, you know, like, If I had a penny for every time a client said, oh, you know, just, just give her, put all your weight on me. Just hurt me. Uh, just go for it. Go as deep as you want. You know, don't be afraid like no pain, no gain. Um, I'd be a millionaire. So, of, so oftentimes before I even start my treatments, well, actually before I start all of my treatments, I sit down with my client, I talk to them, and, you know, I try to do a little bit of an education piece on why I don't think that is the most effective approach, and it took me a very long time to get confident with that little spiel because, you know, you're a massage therapist. You wanna make people feel better, and then there's also a business side to it, right? You wanna, you wanna make sure you're providing a service that people are asking for, so it's really hard to walk that line between. I wanna give you what you want, but also I want you, and you know, what you're asking for might not be the best way, and there are other ways we can get to it. So I try to explain to people that deep tissue massage, like can be effective. You know, I'm not knocking it, I'm sure it it works for some people. Um, but you know, with certain cases, I explained to them that. Deep tissue can come from light touch. Just we start light. Your nervous system naturally relaxes and then we can get to deeper tissues. It might not feel deep, but it is deep and we are getting two sures that are, you know, Deep tissue. Um, we're just doing it from a place that your body is allowing us to, and we're not fighting through it, so you're not gonna get that pain. But, uh, yeah, I could go on and on about the no pain, no game. Uh, yeah, you please do. I mean, I think that's, that's such, that's such an important thing. I mean, I know like for my own, my own journey, Like coming from a very kind of like structurally focused background and, and very much into the sports and rehab stuff. Then I could did a complete like 180 and went the other way. You know, uh, realizing that that approach doesn't work for people that are really suffering more often than that deeper aggressive, grinding approach and started realize that, oh, I can touch people in a way that feels good for them. This is right. I, mm-hmm. A term I always joke about when I teach my courses, I use the term TPN is the best technique, and that's to touch people nicely. Whatever feels good, whatever feels good to the person I is fine. And whether that's an elbow or whether that's light touch, whether that's just gently stretching the skin, maybe you're just holding a limb or a head or something. Mm-hmm. Whatever feels good that has, that can't be wrong. Because how can one be wrong? Exactly right. And so yeah, the no pain, no gain thing I, I think is, is a big problem. And I, I'm always so curious where that comes from. I don't know. Do you have any idea where that comes from? This is something in this, in society, I don't know. Well, I work with a lot of, I work with a lot of military clients and it is definitely a catchphrase, you know, no pain, no gain, pull up your bootstraps. Don't be a woof, you know, like that whole, that whole mindset. Um, I don't know where that comes from. I'm sure it's just like a talk, diet, culture thing, maybe, or, yeah, I, I don't know. Like you have to push through pain to be worthy or, I, I don't know. I totally disagree with all of it. Um, but yeah, I, I just. I think also there is research when you look at, um, Like trauma informed care. Again, uh, your body addicted to what it's used to, whether it's good or bad. So, you know, even if, even if it feels good, it might not feel safe. So, you know, for veterans, they're used to being, uh, Dysregulated, their body is used to that, so that's what feels more unsafe. That's their baseline. So the pain kind of releases all those chemicals in the brain that say, okay, this is our normal. So it's sort of, it sort of starts this, um, this cycle, or that's what I need to feel. Normal. Um, and sometimes, you know, ppn uh, that kind of approach makes them feel unsafe. Um, so there is kind of like a, a big education piece that needs to be incorporated into, you know, saying like, listen, when your body is relaxed, it's okay. You can, you can be safe here. You know, you can, you can relax here in this, so, Yeah, I don't love the no pay, no gain. No, no, no. I'm glad, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of it either. And I like how you've talked a lot too about, about education and, and educating people. Right. Because I think that's, Uh, probably in my opinion, that that is the most important piece is the education we provide and the understanding that people provide. And I have a, a friend of mine, a colleague here in Victoria, and he, he said, he calls education, uh, a modality. He's like, education is the most important modality. And I, I like that because mm-hmm. It's, I love that. Yeah, it's great because you're like, yeah, I'm providing. You know, that's probably the most powerful part of the treatment is having people have at least understand, and then it allows you, like you were saying, to provide touch or an intervention or movement or whatever it is that you're doing with that person on that day, and provides 'em some understanding about what it is that's going on and why, and mm-hmm. I feel that that, and you probably agree that, that that results in better outcomes for that person because if they understand, then it makes sense. Yeah. I find that was so a hard pitch coming right out of school. Cause like I said earlier, you know, you're trying to walk that fine line between providing a service and also helping them. Um, but I find when people come into my office and they sit down, they're kind of like, you know, okay, cool. Like, I'm giving them my spiel and they're like, all right, like on the table, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to, to bring people into that and. It's a hard modality to pitch, you know, they'd rather get the massage. Of course. I think that's what, what makes us so powerful as a profession though, is that, you know, we, because we have so much time with people, right? So we can provide the massage, we can give them touch and stuff. That feels good, but while we're doing that, we can also educate 'em when we talk to them or listen to them. Mm-hmm. Depending on mm-hmm. They want, and that, that's so, that's so powerful. And, and yeah. I think that that's of us realize that did the power, the power's the right word, influence, I guess the impact that we could have, um mm-hmm. Just by holding that safe space and listening and being with somebody and, you know, providing a touch that they want and that they expect and that we like to give. You know, it, it is so powerful, but I, I, that is not a common thing that we, that people don't leave school feeling that. I don't think, like I've talked to so many new therapists over the years and, and people that are still students and even people in practicing for a long time, they're like, yeah, I never learned that in school. I had to figure that out on my own. Or I took a course, I figured that out. Right. So it's it's, it's a gap. Yeah, it is. Uh, it is really, I think kind of the, I don't wanna say the upper hand, but it's kind of like a, a real huge advantage is the amount of time we get with people. Cause, um, other. Healthcare modalities. They don't have that. I think the only other comparable modality like counseling or therapy, um, well, no, that's not true. There's all kinds of other things that are hour long treatments, but it's just like you said, we do. We are in a position where we can such a huge impact and where we can really, we really have enough time and space to build. Um, Like meaningful connections with people and allow them to feel safe. Um, you know, not just because we're spending so much time with them, but because it's, it's very vulnerable to get a massage. You know? Especially if you have a history of trauma and you have complicated relationships with touch or you know, you've been through whatever. Um, I find being able, like. Not to sound too much here, but it is kind of an honor to be trusted with someone like that. Oh. Like it is a really sacred space and it's, it does, um, yeah. We do hold, we do have a position where we need to be really careful with what we're doing and why we're doing it. Yeah. No, that's, that's great. Uh, that, I mean, I, I couldn't agree more. Um, so I, I, I guess one of the, one of the things I wanted to find out, I guess from you would be, um, Other than trauma-informed care. Uh, what other, what other, and, and obviously the, the no pain, no gain stuff. Do you have any other, like kinda educational or kind of like myth busting type things that you have planned that you wanna, that you're gonna be putting up on your Instagram? Uh, I don't know. I can't think of any right now. I mean, there's just. There's so much to it. Right. There's that pretty much encompasses most of it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those are wide umbrellas, trauma informed care, and no pain, no gain. You know, there's, there's, there's a lot under there. Yeah. But I mean, I'm going through your, your, your stuff. I mean, that would be, that's, that's the, the theme that I see again and again and again. So I think, and you've done such a good job of, of putting that information out there and you've got quite a few followers. You've got 1100 followers or something. Like, it's not like it's a, it's not, yeah. Not like a tiny account. So you, you're making a difference. And I see a lot of other article. Thank you. I would call that tiny. You would call that time. Um, the only. Well, I guess, I don't know, relatively speaking, but I, I don't know. Um, and the other thing who you're comparing it to. Yeah, I guess they, yeah. The only thing, the other other thing that I'm, so I'm still, I'm pretty weary about putting it out there is I do have, um, you know, uh, a big part of my practice is cranial sacral therapy and somatics, and I don't put a lot of that online because there isn't enough research there right now and. I don't want to, you know, I'm, I'm really big on safety, so I don't wanna put anything out there that might not be, um, you know, well founded in research. But I have to say that with preo, sacral therapy and thematic work, um, I have seen a lot of profound changes in people with PTs, um, or any form of mental health issue. Um, And I would like to see more research on that. So that might be a myth I bust down the road, but I mean, I'm still just kinda. Treading lightly. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. Good for you. I think it's really important stuff and uh, you know, the way I always look at, look at these things is that even if you, I mean, if you have a big following or a small following, you know, if you're a small following, it's, you know, it's, it'll grow and, you know, you know, those people are probably more engaged. And so I think the, even if you're making a difference in your, your town, and it's only been seven months, You know, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna start to grow, start to spread, and yeah, hopefully your voice will be heard, um, by many people on, on after this podcast is, or when this podcast is released, and the medium of getting your, your, your information and your voice out there. So I hope, uh, I hope people, I hope it continues to grow and I hope you keep, keep putting out good content and, uh, I look forward to seeing what you. What you put out there and and what you have to say. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah. Well thanks Lauren for being here today. We'll keep in touch, okay? Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. Please subscribe so you can be notified of future episodes purpose versus is available or will soon be available in all the major podcast directories. If you enjoy this episode, please share in all your social media platforms. If you'd like to connect with me, I can be reached to my website, eric purvi.com or send me a DM through either Facebook or Instagram at Eric Purvis rmt.