Modality Empires and Continuing Education with Michelle Smith

In this episode I welcome Michelle Smith RMT from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Michelle has a wealth of education and clinical experience which she uses to help the profession of massage therapy become more evidence-based.

We have a positive and constructive conversation on modality empires, critical thinking, the fundamentals of evidence-based practice and the state of continuing education for RMTs across Canada.

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Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to the Purvis versus Podcast. My name is Eric Purvis. I am an R M t course creator continuing education provider, and advocate for evidence-based massage therapy. In today's episode, I welcome Michelle Smith from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and we have a positive, a constructive conversation on modality, empires, and the state of continuing education for RMTs. Thank you for being here, and I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello everybody. Today I'm here with Michelle Smith who joins us from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Uh, so Michelle has been a clinician since 2002. She holds a bachelor's degree in kinesiology, is a clinical exercise physiologist and registered massage therapist. She spent the first half of her clinical career as an exercise therapist, and during this time Michelle was involved in many facets of musculoskeletal rehabilitation. Michelle entered the field of chronic disease management where she assisted in creation of a rural cardiac rehabilitation program, created chronic disease management exercise programs, and provided health and lifestyle education to this population. In 2014, Michelle left her role as an exercise therapist and became an R M T, and she became a sole proprietor of a multidisciplinary clinic in rural Saskatchewan, and then relocated her solo practice in 2018 back to her home in Saskatoon. Ms. Michelle has also been on the board of directors with the N H P C, and she has been on the Saskatchewan College of Massage Therapists Regulation working group. I think I first met Michelle in around 2020 through one of my online continuing education courses, and she's currently a member in my course creators group. Where is she creating a course called Autism in the Treatment Room, A Practical Guide to Understanding, supporting, and Treating Autistic Patients in Musculoskeletal Care. Hello, Michelle. Thanks for being here today. Did I miss anything? No, I think that, uh, summed everything up in a very. Short way. Thanks Eric. Yeah, thanks man. No problem. So, uh, the reason, um, we wanna be here today obviously is cuz the, the topic for this is on modality empires, and this episode was actually inspired by a conversation that Michelle and I had, cuz she has some firsthand experience kind of from the inside of these groups. Um, and I just, before we really dive into the conversation, I just wanna say disclaimer, we're talking about modality empires, but we're not gonna name any specific one. We're not gonna throw any group or any individuals specifically under the bus, cuz the objective of this episode in this conversation is not to slander anyone, but we want listeners to be aware of the many problems with these groups and ways of thinking and practicing can be harmful. And at the worst case, harmful, the best, just unhelpful and. I think we would probably, Michelle and I would both agree that, you know, we don't, neither of us have a problem with the type of touch or style that people use, you know, and oftentimes when we have these conversations, people think, oh, it's just Eric going off again about how all modalities are crap. That's not what I'm saying. I promise you that I don't care what you do or how you touch people necessarily, as long as it feels good and it's what the person wants. But this gonna be more about the kind of the belief systems, the kind of the culture that these groups, uh, create. And more or less really just kind of a lot of the incorrect information that is pedaled to group members and to the public. And the reason why I think this is so important is that because as a regulated healthcare profession, at least in most provinces in Canada now, uh, we have an ethical obligation to provide current knowledge and use best evidence that is relevant to our practice to inform our clinical decisions, and more importantly, to inform our clients so they can give informed consent. Now, a lot of cases, it doesn't really matter what people, what you do, because people just wanna feel better. And there's a segment of our population, particularly those that live with persistent pain, where these modality groups can really have a negative impact on people's, uh, well-meaning by selling them false narratives, false hope, false beliefs. And because we have an ethical obligation to kind of be informed and less wrong, this is where I see the problem, or one of the biggest problems is, um, the, the peddling of this information in a, in a incorrect and, and, and, uh, unhelpful way for certain segments of society. So that's my disclaimer. Um, did you have anything you wanted to add to that, Michelle? Um, I would say I, I share the same disclaimer. I'm here for a positive, constructive conversation and to provide some education to our colleagues out there who are listening. Perfect. That's why we're here. So I guess the first question is, I'm gonna ask you and we can see where this goes. Is, is why do you think modality empires are so popular? I think it starts at the, the foundation. Um, and it starts systemically. So traditionally, right? Most of us know that the art of massage therapy was initially taught through mentorship, right. Um, and as the education of massage therapy has evolved over the years, as has the mentorship, um, Massage therapists are only as good as their educators. So if you're attending a massage therapy school and it's taught by massage therapists themselves, they're gonna pass on their knowledge that they have. And if they've been in doctrines to believe that having unique training and certain modalities is what's going to set you kind of above the rest of the colleagues within your profession, you're gonna start taking on that same. Thought or that same mentality. On the flip side, I feel that, um, our associations also, um, unfortunately promote the, um, support and o of these different modality, empires or modality continuing education courses without thoroughly understanding if, um, these courses are truly evidence-based. Um, often, you know, most associations or industry, uh, representatives will get the course details and it'll say it's evidence-based because it's got reference to this study and that study. But do they actually read the course and do they actually put the pieces of the puzzle together to know and to understand that? You know, the modality that you're teaching isn't actually evidence-based, but you're just flowering your course with evidence-based research so that you can gain the trust of, of the association that you are trying to gain approval for your consumer as massage therapists to earn their CECs from. So, um, in my opinion, modality empires are very systemic. It starts from school and then it, it runs into the associations that promote and support these modality continuing education courses without having the right people actually investigate. Um, what, what is behind these courses? Who's teaching these courses and what science is being used and is it actually being used to substantiate their modality that they're trying to sell? Um, so. I'll be the first to admit I've taken every modality course under the sun, but guess what? I've taken them because I need CECs and I'm not going to take CECs that will allow me to work in, um, say a spa. Not to discredit the spa industry, but I've never taken hot stone massage because I don't want to do hot stone massage. So what's my next option? Modalities. Right. Um, and I guess you could say hot stone is also a modality, but is it evidence-based? Quid pro quo, right. So, They're popular for us because we've been in Trin since we start school. And the public is being in Trin as well. Um, to look for massage therapists that have all these different modality trainings behind their names because, you know, John Doe said that doing, having this modality treatment worked for them. And Jane Doe said that seeing her massage therapist who's trained in modality y worked for her. So, um, publicly too, the consumers of massage therapy are looking for massage therapists who have a plethora modalities, um, regardless if they're evidence-based or not, or if they actually do work. So, so it's a pretty, pretty deep dive into the systemic illness of modality. Empires, I would say. That's great, Michelle. There's a lot, there's a lot there. And, we'll, I think we'll through the conversation we'll try and expand it and, and on or try and focus in on some of those little things at a time. Cuz there's, there's a lot of stuff in here I would like us to kind of get through. We might, maybe we need to do this in, in two or three episodes. Cause I think we could just talk about this stuff forever. But I, I love the thing you said too about the indoctrination and about how it, it is kind of a systemic thing and, and I, I think that it's so true because what happens is when we're in school, we learn manual skills. 1, 2, 3, 4, depending on where you went to school, these manual skills courses. But each, each one, each manual skills course is a modality, right? It's a Swedish, it's a fascial, it's a trigger point, it's a, you know, whatever. Depends, depends where you go to school. You know, some of it might be, you know, muscle energy or it might be, um, lymph drainage, or might be cranial sacral. Like, there's all these different ones that depending on when and where you went to school, they indoctrinate you in that. So you're, you, you go to school, you pay. I dunno what school is now, but when I went to school it was like 30 grand. And that was close to, no, 20 years ago now, actually when I started, um, for, for three year program. And, and that's what you learned. And you ex you have this expectation that I'm going to school, I'm paying all this money, I'm getting current best science. This stuff is, is valid. Like this is, this is what's happening. And even though sometimes, you know, you look back and you reflect on it and you, you know, you drank the Kool-Aid and I was into it because I, that's what I was paying for, right? So there's that sunk cost into it. And then, but then, and, and then when you get out and you start to kind of critically think and reflect on what you're doing, um, and, and things don't make sense, you start to realize that this is not, I'm missing something. And these are all just variations of touch with different stories. So how can one be right and one be wrong? Which one's more right? Which one's more wrong? You don't, we don't, you don't really think that in school. You just, you're taught to do these things and then you go out and you need to do your continuing education. Like you said, you. What's available to you, different modalities, and there's ones that you're gonna identify with. And then you go and you take that training and you go and apply it to clinic, and you start to get some results and you're like, aha, this is the one. I'm now a x, y, Z therapist. You know, insert your favorite acronym there. And then you will, will probably, a lot of us will do like multiple courses with the same person, or you do the different levels of certification and, and it becomes almost like a, now sometimes people are probably mad when I say this, but a lot of the times it really becomes quite cultish. Mm-hmm. I would agree. And, and, and because conversations like the one that you and I are having, I think we probably we're the minority, I would say. Like when we, we all get in our little group thing where we talk to these other people that are, see the kinda modality empires to what they are. But we're such a small segment of the, of the, the profession. Right. And, and, and it's, it's nobody's fault per se. That's, And, and cuz we've all been guilty of it too. But it, it is a systemic thing because like you said, you're in school, you learn this modalities, you go out, you need to take your, your, your continuing education, your quality, uh, assurance stuff is, is, is you have to do it. And then, and that's what's also available. So you're gonna get further in, ingrained in that way of thinking and doing. And then, like you said too, the associations, that's what they advertise. Mm-hmm. You go to any association across the country and, and you look at who, like, who's advertising is often big modality, empires, you know, you go to a conference and there's, they have booths there. It's often these types of things. And so it creates a culture that is very difficult to change. And I think that's one of the backlash that people like you and I are gonna get is that we're going against a culture, we're challenging long held beliefs. And it's crazy to think about, isn't it? We're challenging beliefs, but we're not, we're challenging it with science. Science is there to be less wrong, that's why it's there. But when you challenge a belief with science, humans, we're, we're we react lot. Uh, we don't react logically. We react emotionally a lot of the time. Creates a big, big issue. So I like that you said that about the indoctrination. What's the way forward? How do we get out of that? That's a really big question. Um, I think the first step is for current practitioners to have an open mind. Um, be open to knowing that when they attend or they would sign up for these modality courses, be open to knowing that it's okay to question. The present pre presenters, um, it's okay to not drink the Kool-Aid and I think many people are fearful to, um, engage with the presenters of these, um, courses for fear of scrutiny in front of their peers. Um, but even if you go in there with an open mind and do what I did, always sit in the back row, observe, process, digest, and then you can leave and shake your head at the, you know, ridiculousness of many of the claims and statements. Um, that's okay too because then you can start a conversation with other colleagues and, and I've had those conversations, you know, I have colleagues who have the same modality training that I do, and we often talk about like, you know, I. It was fun and exciting at the time, but once you take the information and process it and do a little bit more research and a little bit more homework and learn a lot more, you understand and recognize that it's not evidence-based. It's just a nice, a nice way to frame the description of their modality is evidence-based in order to gain approval from the associations for continuing education credits, end of story. Um, and on the flip side, as practitioners, it's important for us to have those conversations with our clients. Um, I'll be the first also to admit, um, you know, I have clients who love, and I'm gonna say fireglass cupping because there aren't a lot of moguls out there who are teaching it, many more selling it. Um, who love having fireglass cupping applied. Anytime somebody asks me about fireglass cupping, I'm honest, and I say, there is no science behind this. The, the way I was taught was based on the art and theory of traditional Chinese medicine. Um, my educator was a very transparent in saying, there is no science behind this. And some people just appreciate it and feel better after they have it done. You know, are we, are we removing toxins from a person's body? There's no science behind it, period. So at the end of the day, you have to do what's best and you have to use, um, the, the current gold standard of, of musculoskeletal, um, treatment across all healthcare disciplines. And that is client-centered care, right? If Eric, you're my client and you say to me, yeah, I really want you to do treatment today, let's do some low back work, and I've got this and that going on, but I really love, you know, some, some cupping on my low back. Hey, Eric, we've had this conversation. You know, there's nothing relevant about cupping, but if it feels good to you, let's put some cupping on your back. Right? Does it make me a worse practitioner for applying some cupping on your back? No, but it would make me a worse practitioner if I wasn't transparent and tell you that what we're doing is not evidence-based, um, modality, but I'm listening to you and that's evidence-based care because I'm putting you patient-centered or client-centered first. So, um, where we get where we become a disservice is when we market ourselves as a modality practitioner and only one modality practitioner, because now we're educating the public that this modality is an evidence-based or is a quality modality that has some. Effect on the outcomes of your treatment. Um, when in reality it's all subjective and that's valid too. Subjective outcomes are valid 100%. Um, but as our profession evolves and if we want to be considered to be as reputable as our other allied healthcare professionals that we work with, we need to start double thinking these modality empires and these modality courses when they're, they aren't using direct evidence to state that, that said, modality is creating change. I think you nailed it. So, so many good points there, Michelle, cuz you, you said that, um, you know, listening to the client and providing them kind of what they like regardless of what the modality is. Well that's person-centered care. And I think as long as they are getting that modality with, with the right expectation, with the right knowledge, great. Who are we to tell them that that's crap. You know? And this is a thing that is missed so often, these conversations is cuz you do get the, we're gonna, I'm gonna, the, the, and some people listening might think, well the evidence-based crowd is its own modality. They're their own kind of cultish group. And I would say if that is how you f how you someone feels, I'd say I think you're, maybe there's a bad representative of somebody from that community or maybe you're misinterpreting or misunderstanding, um, the message. Cuz I would say a lot of us that wanna say, yeah, we want our profession to be evidence-based based on science. Yes. There's not a lot of great research out there on massage specifically. There's a lot of great research out there on how to help people with pain and a lot of it doesn't work very well. But you know, the, the kind of goal is, is. Person-centered care, what do they need? We know that all modalities work via the very similar or the same mechanisms. So however you kind of hack into that person's system, however you work with that person, doesn't matter whether it's cupping or slow stretchy skin technique or pokey technique or elbow technique or, you know, movement and, you know, pin and stretch type stuff, doesn't matter. Swedish, as long as it feels good to the person, well then that would say that's evidence-based because you're using something with the right expectation, right story for the, that person that seeks your care. So yeah, that's, that's a, a really important thing to, to, I think for us, just to hammer home. And, and it could, because I, I know, like when I was, um, early in my career, I loved doing all my modality courses like I enjoyed because it really gave me confidence, uh, to, to, to work with people. Certain presentations gave me some different tools and things to, to try. Uh, it gave me a lot of curiosity, but, oh, I, I never thought about, Working with somebody that way before or doing a treatment for the below back or the pelvis or the shoulder or on that way, I thought it was great, but the, the, the stories and expectations were totally wrong. Yeah, absolutely right. That's, and that's, that's the thing, right? That's the whole point, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think getting back to your comment about, um, there's gonna be people out there who are disagreeing with us or frustrated because we are evidence-based practitioners. Um, I don't, I mean, and maybe the same holds true for you, Eric, but my education experience having gone to an evidence-based, um, program, kinesiology, the science of exercise, um, Set me up to look at massage therapy through an entirely different lens. And my experience working in clinical settings with colleagues who were physical therapists, physicians, psychologists, all of those healthcare providers are from an evidence-based, um, profession. Right? And so I've always felt that as massage therapists, if we want to be on that same playing field, we need to focus on evidence-based healthcare. Because at the end of the day, all the other allied health professionals that we work with are from evidence-based professions, period. Right? They're all regulated in some way or another. And their, um, professional scope of practice is evidence-based. So respectfully, we, we have the arts and the science of massage therapy. Um, And manual therapy is one of the 11, right. Um, steps that or recommendations in musculoskeletal care. And I want, I think we need to start thinking of massage therapy. It is, it's manual therapy. Whether it's manual therapy from a physical therapist doing some joint mobs or glides, whether it's from the referral to a massage therapist who can also do joint mobs and glides manual therapy is part of the gold standard recommendations for MSS K treatment. And so we can't discredit ourselves as massage therapists, but we need to elevate ourselves as evidence-based practitioners. So we are on the same playing field as our colleagues, and so we can gain the trust and respect of our colleagues. Um, I know we, we've had this conversation before and, and. The course creator group, and you'd mentioned, you know, people aren't gonna come see you because of the list of letters behind your name or the credentials behind your name. Um, which in part I do agree with. But I also have found in my experience, I get a significant amount of referrals from physical therapists, um, and chiropractors because I have my, my education in an evidence-based profession first. Right? Um, because they know that I am an evidence-based practitioner. Um, and because they have the confidence and faith in me as a colleague. And so when they have their conversations with their patients, they're saying like, I want you to go see this provider because she has her experience in exercise therapy. She has a degree in kinesiology I trust, and I know that the type of massage therapy, treatment and assessment approach she takes will be. Evidence-based and she will help you out. So there's, there's also, and we could have another conversation about this, the perception of massage therapists amongst other allied healthcare providers. Right. Um, and even amongst other massage therapists. Um, so I think it does matter, and I think it is important to have that open mind to understand that asking the right questions and being honorable to the profession means looking at evidence-based practice, period. Yeah. I, I would say that I, I, I totally agree with everything you're saying there. Um, just the one comment you made too about, you know, not having all these letters after your name. I would say that, you know, that my experience having been through university and through graduate school, I had a lot of, my private practice had a lot of referrals. For that reason. They're like, oh, you're a massage therapist that, you know, has had other education. Um, but I would say though, that if you are looking at like the, I'm a level four certified in whatever, I don't know if that really means anything to the public. Yeah, no, it doesn't. It is kind of what I think I was meaning by the, that call. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. I've even had other practitioners say to me, well, what does it mean that you're this certified or that certified? Because other Allied healthcare providers don't know. They don't care. They're like, well, what does this mean? I'm like, well, this was the modality that I took and this is what I can do. Oh, okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And one thing we, we should, we should unpack a little bit is we should, let's take a little bit of a dive into the, uh, evidence-based practice. Cause we've, we've mentioned that a few times just to kind of get some terminology out there and kind of what that means. Uh, because when we're looking at, you know, Being evidence-based, which is what we wanna be, cuz Allied Health profess professionals have to, you know, should be evidence-based. And, and there's a big misunderstanding in our profession, I feel about what that means. I feel this is, this is all feeling, uh, so it could be wrong. Um, but I, I, the, the impression I get from talking to people and watching online conversations and having conversations with people is that when you say evidence-based, it means you're only using current science to defend a specific or to support a specific technique or a specific modality. And we know that there is no evidence on a specific modality that we, that's in our scope of practice, really. I mean, there's some stuff on needling, which isn't available in bc but some other RMTs can do it in other parts of the country. You know, there's cupping, there's, there's, there's research on that. None of it's very good. It all basically says it's no better than placebo. So it's one of those things you're like, I'm gonna take it or leave it. Uh, the thing is like tens and. Um, laser, all those things, you know, there's most of the research on that says no better than placebo, you know, so it's kind of take it or leave it, right? But, um, and then if we're looking at touch, and then we, we can, if we can accept that all touch is just a variation of push, pull, twist, move, body parts, the mechanisms of effect are all the same. There is evidence that says that touch that's meaningful provides a nice analgesic response for certain people, not everybody. So we're talking about evidence-based. We're, I, I think that we just need to say the evidence for touch, not specific modalities. Cause I, I hear that again and again and again. I see that again and again and again with massage therapists be like, well, there's no evidence for this and there's no evidence for anything. Well, no, there is actually evidence for touch. There's evidence for the contextual effects. There's evidence for that human to human interaction. There's evidence for, you know, um, meaningful education. There's evidence for movement modification and exercise. There's lots of evidence for the stuff that's in your scope of practice. Tons. As well as we're looking at evidence-based practice, we are not just looking at what's the science say. We're also looking at your clinical expertise. And I think this is where Modality Empires could, if we're gonna give 'em a bit of a pass and something they could fit into that clinical expertise piece. Because most of 'em are developed based on somebody's observations and they've kind of created a hypothesis and they've gone and done these things to patient populations and have found that there's positive outcomes some of the times. Yeah. And, and that would fit within, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Oh, no, I was gonna say, which is valid. Right? It's valid because I'm sure you've had your hypothesis in the treatment room. And I also have mine on different ways I push, pull, twist, touch humans. Um, But the, the unfortunate thing is when these modality empires are, um, quote, jumping the gun, and they're neglecting critical thinking processes in the, their teaching of the modality. But then also after they've taught modalities, if they offer support in terms of social media groups or whatever it might be, as soon as someone poses a question of, Hey, I've got somebody with this condition X, Y or Z, you know, which modality technique should I use to help them out? And then they jump right into providing their direct answer instead of pulling back the curtain right on the Wonderful Wizard of Oz and saying, Hey, this is a great question. Let's do some critical thinking about this. Right. Let's talk about. First your client, how are they presenting to you? What are some past, you know, health concerns, X, Y, or Z? Who else are they seeing as part of their care provider team? Right? Going down that critical thinking process is a skill, and I be, and in my experience, it's a skill that isn't necessarily always directly taught, um, whether it's from massage school or whether it's at these modality training courses. Um, because they just want you to take the client and apply modality A, B, and C and hazah, that person's fixed. Right? But why? Right. And so, um, that's what I find, um, Frustrating. I'll be transparent. It's frustrating for me because now we're just reeducating or we're educating massage therapists, we're indoctrinating them into crappy beliefs and we're not teaching them how to critically think. And you use the best standards of practice, you know, we're saying, here's your cookie cutter outcome, here's what you do, and success will happen. That's not the case. And that's the case too with, with, with the kind of standard of education that you see in school. Most of us have had a very specific textbook that we use, which I'm not gonna name, but everyone you can probably name, um, knows what it is. And it's been around since like the nineties, and it's very recipe based. Mm-hmm. It's very, it's, it's, everything is a pathology. Everything is a dysfunction. And it's all about recognizing that and then applying said techniques to, uh, yeah. Fix or alleviate that dysfunction and. The problem is obviously with the modality, empires too, is they take that same approach, right? Yeah. The culture is where, like we we're, we're, we're, the culture of the profession is to recognize patterns and to apply said modality to quote unquote fix that pattern. And if people get better when you've done that, all of a sudden people are like, aha, that's it. My modality works for the exact reasons I was taught, right? And so this is the, this is such a huge thing, and this is, I've never, I never learned this in the modality courses I took. It was like, oh, this happened because you've corrected this thing, or you've moved this thing, or you've released this structure or structures. It was never, it, it was never taught that like, oh, okay, well, you know, you, you provided some input into their system and it worked well. And for whatever reason, you know, magic happens, you know, stuff happens and people feel better and they're moving better, they feel more comfortable, the area feels less sensitive, less guarded. It was always like, no, you, you did this thing and you've corrected this dysfunction. And that is a big assumption because just because you have a positive outcome from a intervention, from a modality treatment, that does not prove your mechanism of effect, all it shows is that that person had a meaningful outcome. Doesn't prove that. In that moment, at that moment. Is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah. At that moment, because Right, and that's what I was, I always questioned, well, how long is this gonna last for that person, right? Mm-hmm. Sure. In that moment, I've got full range of motion of my arm after I walked in and I said, I can only raise it to 90 in this moment. It lasts to full range. Where am I three days afterward? You don't have control over that? No. There's so many external factors that impact that person's ability to move their arm. And you're only one small, tiny little factor, but that you shouldn't, shouldn't be taking all the glory for. Do you see that in some of the modality empire stuff that you are familiar with? Do you see, see them lo uh, using a lot of the, kind of the current buzzwords? You see a lot of 'em, like pain, science, biopsychosocial, person-centered, evidence-based. Do you see that? I do. I've never seen anyone use patient-centered, but everyone I, all the ones I've taken is always like evidence-based and, um, you know, pain science and um, you know, neuroscience of pain and, and you know, all that fun stuff. And, um, yeah, if, if they use the term patient-centered, then they wouldn't be teaching modality because obviously not patient-centered. No. I've seen, I've done a deep dive into the references for a number of different modality groups just because mm-hmm. I, OCD maybe, and I just, I do the same. I do the same, but it's fun reading, right? Yeah. And you think, and, and I read these things that they make available, and I think, and I, and you're, and they don't say what you think it says, because there'll be, there'll be people using things like rat, like studies on rats or, or rabbits or animals, you know, and then, and then you're like, and it com and the, uh, the conditions they've subjected these for animals too, is nothing to what is actually happening in a human. It's, and, and a lot of them will, will, will use things about, like, they'll take some really complex kind of neurophysiological studies that mm-hmm. That say, you know, something such and such a thing happens. Um, and then, you know, Let's, let's say, okay, well when inflammation is present, these are the, these are the things that happen. And this helps with repairing skin and repairing tendons and stuff. Yeah. But that is something that's happening that you're, that's something you're not doing with your hands, and that's something you should not want to do. Like when you look at like the bigger picture Yeah. With your hands. You're a magician, right? Yeah. Like it's, it's from a mechanical perspective. Anyway, we could go on about that, but there's, there's so many of these giant leaps that are used. And so that's, I think where the problem we get with the term evidence-based is, oh, is evidence-based, because I have research to support my bias. Right? That's not how evidence-based works. It has to be relevant evidence for your claim. Exactly. And I know one of the modality modalities that I took training in, um, they were fortunate enough to have the funding to fund their own research into said modality, which hey, kudos to them. However, right. There's, there's a conflict right there. If you have your own funding to do your own research on your own modality. Is it really evidence-based? No, because it's super, super biased and, and you see that a lot with certain, uh, there's other ones too. Like there's some other, some of the big ones that are very popular across the world. You know, a lot of research comes out of their, like own institutes mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That are done by the people that own the institute. Yeah. And their own. And they, a lot of times they publish it in their own like journal and newsletters. They're like, well, that's not evidence-based, is it? Yeah. That's just, yeah. So that, that's a problem. And, and we see that all the time with the modality empires, but Yeah, I, I would sure Go ahead. Is the problem, is the problem surrounding evidence based. Does it lie in the fact that we're not teaching massage therapists how to, how to, um, interpret the data and how to read evidence and how to, how to weed through the crap. Right. And I know from my own experience going to massage therapy school and also teaching at a school, zero, zero education about what is evidence-based research? How do you read research? How do you define good versus bad research? Right? I learned all of that at the university level. And again, not to, not to discredit massage therapy schools anywhere, um, but because so many of the schools are privately owned and operated and probably have never had the opportunity to have their curriculum reviewed or looked at, we're still teaching the same and doctrines. Belief from the textbook that's 20 years old, right? And we're not teaching therapists how to be critical thinkers or how to, you know, sift through the evidence unless they do other continuing educational opportunities that do teach that skill. Because it is a skill. And if you don't know how to do it, then you're none the wiser. So unfortunately, these modality empires are also taking advantage of the massage therapists who don't possess the skills to extrapolate good evidence-based research versus not good evidence-based research. I like that you said that taking advantage. It is, it is taking advantage of people, it's taking advantage of a profession that is not, and we're generalizing here, is not set up or, or educated in a way to really have those skills. Like, it's just not part of what we learned. So unless you've had that skill otherwise, or, or learned it on your own. You know, you can't blame anybody again, it's just, it's the system. It's systemic thing that is allowing the stuff to flourish. And for me too, I mean, I, I did a bachelor's and, and, and, um, after high school, and we, everything that we learned was supposedly, you know, there was science, right? And, but you didn't really learn a, a lot of really critical, uh, thinking skills. And until I went and did my masters, um, you know, that's when I really learned. I was like, holy crap. Like, this is how you read research. This is the things to look for. These are the steps to follow. And it's a, it's a, it's an a skill, it's an art to, to do. And it's not fun for most people, you know? No, most people, most of us in our profession just want to go and help people, right? They wanna massage and, and help people that come to see them. That's, yeah. Fantastic. But I do agree though that the, the lack of education in school about. Research, you know, um, interpreting, finding, applying research to practice, you know, how to critical think, being skeptical, you know, all these things are, are, should be fundamental in school. I, I think these things should be taught early in the schools and, and they're not. And they are, I believe in PT school they do, they do quite a bit of that. Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. But again, what's the pedagogy based on in pt, school science, evidence-based, right? Yeah. Yeah. Same in nursing, right? Like it's, I'll just leave that there. Yeah, it does, it does kind of make me always, I always think in my head, I have this question. I'm like, do the, does the do do governments and do the public, do they, do they care about, about the state of things in our profession? Cause I really think that if they did, they would demand better. Now, maybe they do care, but maybe they're just not aware of it. Maybe they're not seeing enough of the physical harm that's occurring. But I would love there to be somebody, do a big study on people that see massage therapists for let's say, I don't know, low back pain. Pick a, pick a population. Mm-hmm. And see what they think about their massage and what's their what? What kinda information is their massage rapist given? What's their massage rapist doing for them? Because are they actually providing good quality evidence-based management strategies, or are they just slapping modalities on them again and again and again and like, oh, you've got an unlimit of benefits. Just keep coming back. Oh, you're on worker's comp. Just keep coming back. You've been in a motor vehicle accident. Yeah, come and use up as many of those as you can. I don't know if that's happening or not. I'm being pretty flippant there, but maybe it is. But it's interesting because Right, these. Insurance companies and government agencies obviously support the use of massage therapy as part of the treatment care plan. Um, and maybe it's not the public that needs to care more, but maybe it's the, the industry's industry that supports massage. Like our benefit plans, like, you know, our government agencies on workers' comp or things like that, um, to crack down a little bit more on practitioners and maybe they need to care a bit more. Um, I came across, uh, a social media post just the other day about, you know, will regulation really matter? And the talk around that question was more about does regulation in provinces that are actually regulated reduce the amount of fraud and reduce the amount of sexual abuse or assault that occurs? Those are the two things that people focus on when we talk about massage therapists and, and being regulated. Regulation also should prioritize the type of treatment, care, and evidence-based care, but then you need to police that and who's, who has the capacity to police that, so does the public need to care more or do people in our own community, like you or I and other people who have similar thought need to take this risk and speak out more like we are? Yeah, I mean, what I agree with you a hundred percent there. I strongly believe that we need more people talking about this stuff and it needs to become a common conversation. That's why, you know, that's one, one reason I wanted to do this podcast, and not just this episode, but having my own podcast, was to have some of these conversations just so it gets out there so hopeful people will listen to it and ask questions about certain things, different topics that we're, we're doing because the, the role of the regulatory colleges, at least in BC, is safe, effective, ethical care. Most of the associations have something similar in their kind of mission statements about, you know, safe, effective, ethical, evidence-based care. Like there's some type of the science and practice of massage therapy. Yeah, and I would say that by allowing these big modality empires to flourish without any oversight of it, what is it that you're teaching? What is it? The information you're giving to people? Is this supportable by science? If it's not, then you have to change what you're teaching. That is, it's not in the public's best interest. If we're looking at those people that come to see us, if it's safe, effective, and ethical, was it effective? Well, maybe it's effective. Is it ethical? I would say if we look at informed consent, If someone comes in and you, and they've got say, headaches and you're like, oh, it's because you've got this imbalance in your, your foot and your, you know, maybe your, your pancreas is, is in inspir sphere of your pancreas is, is not moving and that's creating. Yeah. You know, we could go on and on about these, these, these very grandiose stories about this is what's happening. If someone's getting that information and they think, they're like, oh my head hurts because of all these things, well that's not, and then you do a treatment on that, well, like, that's not informed consent because none of those things that you said are happening. So the person's giving consent to a treatment that is not actually happening. Now, if we could say, you know what, you've got some headaches. There's a few different things we can try. You know, maybe we'll try working as other parts of your body and see if we can just make it feel better. We're gonna look at symptom management. Well, that's an informed consent cuz you're being realistic. Yeah. Maybe your treatment looks the same. Maybe it feels the same, but the information the person is getting has to be supportable. And that's where I strongly feel is what's lacking. And that needs, that needs some oversight from somebody that has power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And who is that? Somebody, right. Um, the other, the other, I guess part of these modality empires too that I question. Um, and we need somebody to, police is charging more. Because you are trained in said modality. So if you look at other allied healthcare providers, right, they're col and I mean I keep forgetting that massage is regulated in other provinces cuz not in ours. Um, but from my experience working with other allied healthcare providers, their college sets fee schedules or a guideline of fee schedules that those practitioners should fall into within reasonable, um, amount. And it's actually goes against their code of ethics to charge more because you are applying one specific modality only. Right? And so when it comes to being a modality empire and then training your, um, attendees that. Now they're gonna cure somebody's hammer toes by looking at their eyeballs and checking their shoulder and, and doing this said modality. Um, but now you also need to charge $15 an hour more for that treatment than a regular massage because what you're doing is more effort on your own physical body. And because you have this extra training, you should, you have every full right to charge more. And I disagree with that 110%. It doesn't really make sense. It's, it's a marketing thing from a business perspective. It's a marketing, but it's not, yeah, I would say it's not ethical to, to charge more because you have certification in said technique. It's an issue though, when we look at the people that, you know, teach these, these, these, in these modality empires, is that they are so, they're like, they believe their stuff so much. And it's, it's very difficult to have conversations with them in a, in a, in a way that is civil because you can't challenge them. Because when you challenge the stories behind a modality, people get so defensive because they identify by, oh, I am x, y, z type therapist. And you're challenging the mechanisms. You're challenging, you know what? I think so therefore you're challenging me and you're telling me I'm a bad therapist. Well, no one's really saying that, but that's what people hear. We're just curious. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So curious And it's, it's, it's the fear, but it, right, it's, it's like the, the curtains being pulled back again. Right. And the great oz is being exploited. Yeah. It's the fear of exploitation because I don't know about you and, and the listeners, but. I can, I can tell somebody who's there to make money versus somebody who's there to truly mentor and teach because of it's their passion. Right? Um, and a lot of these modality empires are there because they're making a really great profit off of us, right? Signing up for their courses and kudos. That's great. I'm all for business success, but is it ethical business? Are you being, are you being true to the profession? If you are making money off of your colleagues within that profession in an ethical way? And that's a a great point too, is the ethical way. I mean, so, you know, full disclosure, anybody listens to, probably knows, like I make majority of my living teaching courses. But I'd be the first one to say that I started teaching courses back in 2015 because there was information and things that were just not being put out there and there, the goal for me from the very beginning was less about money and more about just. Change. And, you know, in the world of chronic pain, which is where my main area of, of of interest was all about, like, people need to know this stuff. And there's so much evidence out here that contradicts everything that we know, that we think we know, but this is old information. Why is it not getting out in the public? And, and you start to look at it and you experience it and realize, cuz people don't wanna hear it. Mm-hmm. Because it challenges a lot of this modality type thinking. And so, yeah. I, I mean, so you, for me and still, you know, you start to realize over time you're like, oh, okay, so the last thing I ever wanted to do was create my own modality empire. But you do start to see that. You get followers, you get people that support you, and you get people that share your stuff. And it's a very, I could see how you could get, people could get very attracted to the idea of being this like, Grew type thing because it's cuz people are, are taking your information and it's, and they're making a difference. I think the thing is we need to do those, we need to reflect and stop and be like, if people are paying you good money to take your stuff and take your courses, the ethics behind it has to be because you wanna make an impact in people's lives in a better way. Not just to fleece them from their money. Because if you start, just like you said, if you start just being about the money, then you lose the reason for why are you here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. And I, in my experience taking modality course the same as you. You can tell sometimes it's just about, about making a buck. Yeah. You know, and, uh, it's hard though, you know, when you are a CE provider and yourself, I'm sure you, once your, your course comes off the ground and you start to see it, there is some things you have to do as to market it to make yourself stand out to be different. But I think we would agree, both of you and I, and this is one of the questions I wanna talk about was, uh, an alternative. What's the alternative to move away from modalities? If we're not doing modalities, what are we looking at? What are we, what, what's that look like for massage service? What are they doing instead? What are your thoughts on that? Modalities? There's, there's a whole plethora of things that you can do instead, because we know that educating our clients is crucial to their care and wellbeing. Um, and expanding your knowledge. On various things, whether it's a specific population or whether it's, you know, exercise or exercise therapy, or whether it is, you know, better, better charting or how do you successfully collaborate with other healthcare professionals in your community. Those are all ways that we're supporting our client care, but we're not directly hands-on, push, pull, twist, turn right with, with our clients. Um, but we're expanding our, our mindset. And I think, again, we've been in doctrines to believe that our, our one skill is our hands, right? Because we're manual therapists, but actually our hands are only one 10th of what we bring to a treatment. Um, and if we have the background knowledge and the information, or even. Experience with, you know, different things within the community. Um, we need to start looking for continuing, continuing education courses that allow us that ability, right? Trauma, sexuality, you know, um, there's so much out there right now in our current social climate that we will eventually be exposed to in the treatment room, but are we prepared for that person to come in and see us? Right? I have some colleagues who are doing really great work in the L G B T T Q two Q plus community, pardon me for messing that up. Um, and learning about, you know, how to, how to, how to accept and treat welcomely, you know, clients who've gone through transition surgery, right? Um, so we don't have to know how to be manual therapists. We already know how to be man therapists because we are period, right? But do you know how to stretch your brain? So that you are a better practitioner in the treatment room. And I think that's what we need to start shifting our focus on instead of jumping and looking for the next modality of how to, you know, treat this person's X, y, or Z, um, which will make ourselves better, better therapists across the board. Yeah, that is, I am totally on, on the same page as you. Uh, with that is the way forward is to move away. Like there, I, there's always different, people are always gonna wanna learn different ways of touching some of that, and I, I don't see that as being a problem. Like you said, the stories and the expectations are need to go, but the, the way I see forward for us to be, if we wanna be an evidence-based profession is, well, what do the other professions do? What do they do? What do the other allied healthcare professionals do? And they focus mostly on populations, right? So, Your, your, your infor your stuff that you're trying to create a course or you are creating a course on you will be teaching on is, is on working with, uh, the autistic and neurodiverse populations? You know, I, my area of interest is, is on chronic pain and pain management. That's a population, right? There's pregnancy, there's other people in our group are doing ones on, um, cancer related pain or, or, uh, post cancer surgeries. Uh, there's some people are doing, uh, one person's doing, uh, one on, uh, hypermobility spectrum disorders and El LERs Danlos. Uh, there's other people, uh, long covid is another, another one that people work on. These are populations. So you're learning the evidence and the skills of how do you interact, like the term you stretch your brain to work with a specific population. That's what we see in clinic. Right? And, and, and this is where the modality empires fail, is that they see Michelle comes in, it's back pain. How do I fix the back pain? Rather than taking the zoom out and saying, this is Michelle. This is her story. This is what Michelle's all about. This is who she is, and she's suffering with back pain. So you're rather than putting the person first and, and you know what's going on with this person, the modality empires often, and now we are making, you know, wide generalizations here, but I would say most of these are true and supportable are looking at how do I fix the back pain? What do I need to do for this back pain? Rather than how do I interact with this person in a meaningful, important way? And that's where learning what populations is so important, because I would say that in any, when you're working with the population, if you're taking a course in rmt that's teaching you on that specific group, pediatrics is another one that someone is doing. You cans, you can say, okay, yo, this is so-and-so and this is, and they're, this is what their, that their concern is. You could apply a lot of these different modalities into that population, but it's important to know about that population first. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And that's where I wanna see things move forward, which is one reason, actually that was 100% the reason why I started that group was because I, I was like, we need more people teaching population stuff. Cuz every time you go online or you go and look at, uh, you know, ads for different associations and courses, it's all learn this technique. And you think there's gotta be more to out there for That's just, that's been done. Yeah. Yeah. Different. It's, it's that, that cyclical wheel, right? It just keeps going around until somebody like you or I or other people come in and pull one of the spokes out and say, Hey, like, shift your thought. Right? Yeah. Yeah, this has been a great conversation here. I, I think just, we probably just for time-wise, we'll, we'll wrap it up soon, but I just thought we, there's a couple things we'd, we'd finish off with and I, I thought, uh, I'd ask you this question and I'll provide some of my thoughts. What do you see is one of the biggest things for RMTs to look out for when choosing continuing education course? Um, that's a good question there. Some red flags. Red flags for me would be, um, all or nothing thinking. So when, when you're deciding to choose which course to take for modality, um, just observe the, the course creator or the course. Uh, presenter on their social media outlets, um, and observe how they interact with their followers. Um, look at the type of conversation or dialogue they are engaging in. If they're willing to have good, respectful back and forth conversation, um, and a and can comfortably be challenged, um, but also have the rhetoric to provide their information in a substative way. Some that substantiates what they're saying, then that's probably a great sign. Um, but if they are basically shutting you down instantly, if, if you question their um, modality or if you question their science behind their their modality, then I think you can start to put the pieces together that. Someone's selling you the snake oil and they don't want you to figure that out. Um, and also even just look at, um, what they want you to do once the course is done. Um, I mean, doing a course and, and telling you that you'll have these letters behind your name now and you should use this and advertise this to the rest of the world, um, isn't, because, isn't, isn't you providing better patient care, it's you providing free marketing for the modality that they have taught you to do. Um, end of story because nobody cares and nobody knows that you are an X, y, Z modality practitioner because they probably don't even know what that modality is unless they have had that experience with that modality treatment. So, If these courses want you to drink their Kool-Aid and then promote their Kool-Aid as such, um, by having letters behind your name or using logos or, um, changing your fee structures, I think that's a red flag as well too, because that to me is not ethical from a business standpoint, but first and foremost, from patient-centered care or client-centered care. Um, and then you know what, get curious about the person's credentials and their experience, right? And make that choice based on how you feel their experience, um, can be beneficial to your learning opportunities. And if, if they've, you know, have little experience or they have a lot of experience, you know, you can make that informed decision yourself. But just be aware of, of what. What they're bringing to you. And if it's only, you know, siloed treatment approach for X number of years, then I think you should also be aware that they're not open to other ideas around their profession either. Yeah. There should definitely be some evolution in over the time rather than just the same old, same old trying to keep on hammering on the same message. And yeah. And you mentioned, you know, patient-centered there and, and you know, really one of the, the key findings when we're looking at the kind of the person-centered, patient-centered, client-centered all different words for the same thing to human, uh, is, is the, is it's really avoid is is be careful with use of language and avoid overly path anatomical language that implies someone is damaged, right? Yes. And, you know, this is, this is kind of foundational. Um, I th I feel it's foundational, at least in, in. Literature and it doesn't come up just once or twice. It comes up again and again and again. Um, because we know that not in all cases, but a lot of cases, that type of belief system and language can be unhelpful. In some cases it can be disabling. Yep. Very much so. Very much so. Yeah. I mean those are, yeah, those are some great things that you mentioned too. I, I would say too, when we're looking at, um, things to watch out for, like you said, kind of these grandiose claims of efficacy, right? If you go to someone's website and it's like scientifically proven to reduce pain or learn how to treat the root cause of pain, or you know, find out the secret that no one else is telling you, like this kind of stuff is, is marketing lingo. I get marketing, I understand it, but if you're looking to take a, a ce course and they're making those kind of promises, that is not, that is, that is definitely gets the antenna up a little bit. You know, um, if they, if they claim that they may found a way to fix pain, anything on there about fixing or curing pain or dysfunction, that would be a big red flag because there's no data that says anything fixes pain. You know, if it, if, and if though it was true, then every single person would be certified in that approach and people wouldn't hurt. It's just, it's illogical. It doesn't make sense. Right. Um, using anecdotes as, as science is another thing too. You know, people say, I treated this person and this is what happened. So therefore, you know, this is, this works, and we kinda talked about it earlier, but the mechanism of effect, you know, isn't supported because of outcomes. Uh, another big one too, uh, using pages of references. So if you just look, we see all these references. Go and look through them if you want to, and you'll see that a lot of 'em have nothing to do. You see that in a lot of these, these sites or if the people teaching the course are the authors of every single paper they reference. I've seen that before too. Yeah, that's scary. I've also seen, and I laugh, the the references, the scientific references used were basically copy paste from every level of the specific modality certification. So you get the workbook and the manual and you're, you're reading through the first preamble of their science lingo, which is all BS to begin with, and then you flipped the references on level one copy paste. It's the same list of references for level two, three, and four. So as the levels evolve, or they say they evolve, um, their, their depth of research doesn't, it stays exactly the same as. Level one, um, where they try to sell you something that is just completely not plausible in a world of manual therapy. Wow. That is, that's a big red flag for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing too that, you know, is, is, is important and, and you shared some, some of your insights to me, and I, I, like I said, I did, went and looked at, uh, some other ones myself as we're preparing for this and some other groups that I creep on, I lurk in just to see what's being said. People probably, yeah, lurk people are probably gonna kick me outta groups now, uh, for saying that. But some of the things too is, is it, there's just this group think, and it's kind of cultish behavior where people ask questions and then the leaders of the groups, or the founders of the groups respond, and every single thing, the answer always, almost always come. Doesn't matter what the presentation is or the condition is, it comes down to do this, this approach, or this technique, or this, um, you know, do, do this thing. Right. And, and some of the ones that, that you shared and that I, I found, you know, things like, you know, a modality fixing concussions, realigning, you know, surgical scars, realigning tendons, um, you mentioned hammertoes, neuropathies, radiculopathies, spinal stenosis, uh, hemiplegia, um, stroke symptoms, um, you know, increasing strength and core stability with the modality. It doesn't make any sense with the modality. Like, hello even. Yeah. And so they, they, these are just some of the ones that I've seen and that, that, that basically where someone presents with one of these things and then you, and then their response is, do modality this way and you'll fix it. I've, I've seen it all the time. It works. Uh, does it, that those are, those are big claims that, that I think are, if there's any more that you, that you have there, uh, those are the ones I saw. And that that's something that you shared. Uh, not so much touching on claims, but, um, the other red flag is how they interact or how they perceive other allied healthcare providers is a big red flag. I, I lurk on many groups that, um, uh, and, and whether it's a modality empire or whether it's just R m T groups, I get so just, it, it angers me. When people talk bad about my colleagues, my physical therapists, my chiropractors, my doctors, my nurses, they'll come and post about client X, Y, and Z with this issue going on and physio's not working, or their physio's not doing this or that. It's like, don't point fingers at your colleagues, period. That's, that's just not professional, nor is it ethical, right? We all have a role to play in a person's healthcare journey, and by, by. By talking in that way or by even having a, that conversation with your client to make them think that their other therapist is not doing a good job, or what they're doing with their other therapist is not working. You're doing a huge disservice to your client, first and foremost, and you're huge. Doing a huge disservice to the reputation of our profession, right? Like, we all have our place. Physio is great. Chiros great. Osteopathy is great, massage is great. Nurses are great, doctors are great. We all have our place. And I, I've seen, I've seen a lot of negative talk, um, on some of the modality Empire pages about other professions and what they aren't doing and what they should be doing. And who are you to say you, you didn't go to school and take their certification or their course. You didn't, you weren't in the treatment room with that client. You have no right to say that period. So that's the other thing that really gets me riled up and I think needs to stop or is a big red flag as well. That's actually a really important point to make because the, it makes you look bad when you are throwing another healthcare provider, even another massage therapist under the bus being like, oh my God, they didn't do that. Oh my gosh. How do you know how, how stupid of them, how, how, how they, how neglectful, you know, they should know this. Should they, why, right? Mm-hmm. Just because they didn't do what you think should happen doesn't mean it's wrong necessarily. And, and I found it, you know, I working in a multidisciplinary clinic for over 12 years, no, 16 years I worked in a multidisciplinary clinic. Uh, I found that working with, with physios and cairos was, was great. And I never ever heard a physio talk negatively about anybody. Always, I mean, we worked, I've worked with probably, I dunno, seven or eight over, over the years, different ones. And they were, they were all fantastic. They were all so professional. They were all so, uh, respectful. They, uh, they were happy to refer for certain things. They, there was never any, um, sense of ownership of, of a client. There's never any sense of this person's stupid or this person's bad, or this person's better. It was, it was very, very collaborative and I, I always had really good impressions and the kairos I worked with too were, were great. They, they were, they were great too. They were very much the same as they, they knew what their role was. They knew what their expectations were. Um, and even the massage service I worked with were, were, were great. I mean, we, we had a great team, but you would see all the time talking to other people outside of our little bubble of clinic that we had built. And the, the, the talk, like you said, that people would have negative talk about other, other professionals. That's not helpful. No. Yeah, it makes you look bad. So don't keep tho keep those, keep those thoughts to yourself. Don't put them out there in social media and or in the public because I think it makes it, yeah. It's, it's poor. Yeah. Well, Michelle, that was fantastic. That was a long one. We covered a lot of stuff and I think I could still keep talking forever. So we'll have to get you back on and do another one on maybe one of these other topics that we've kind of just touched on. And, uh, yeah, hopefully people will find this valuable. So I think the, the, the, the take home message is be critical of modality, empires, ask hard questions, be skeptical about what it is that you, uh, have been told. And don't be afraid to search out things, courses, and, and other learning opportunities that are not just modality focused. See if you can find something on specific populations or. Attend a conference on something that interests you something different is, is, is I think the, the, the more evidence-based way to go, um, put modality empires in their place and hopefully through more conversations like this, um, those groups will start to maybe change their tune a little bit. I'd hope so. Yeah. We can hope. We can hope. We can hope for sure. All we can do is hope. Yep. All right. Well, thank you Michelle. Uh, you have a good day and uh, we'll talk to you soon. Yeah, this is great. Thanks so much, Eric. Have a great afternoon. Thank you for listening to the Purpose Versus Podcast. Please subscribe so you'll be notified of future episodes Purpose versus is now available on all major podcast directories. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment and share it on your socials. If you'd like to connect with me directly, I can be reached through my website, eric purvis.com. That's E R I C P U R V E s.com, or send me a DM through either Facebook or Instagram at Eric Purvis rmt.