The Student RMT Experience with Tempo Sabatier

This is the first of my series on new RMTs. This episode features Tempo Sabatier. They are a new RMT in Vancouver, BC who practices at https://papercranemassagetherapy.com/. 

We have a really engaging discussion on their expectations prior to entering massage therapy school and how this differed from the reality of their experience. Tempo shares their thoughts on what would have made the education better; adding more time for critical thinking, philosophy and ethics. We also have an important discussion on the importance of learning about social determinants of health, trauma informed care and the need for more education on pain, particularly chronic pain.

Tempo loves to devour information and I am confident they will be a highly successful therapist who makes a positive difference in people’s lives.

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Transcript

0:07

Hello and welcome to the Purvis versus Podcast. My name is Eric Purvis. I'm an R M t course creator. Continue education provider and advocate for evidence-based massage therapy. Thank you for being here, and I hope you enjoy this episode. This is the first of my series of on New RMTs. This episode features Tempo, who is a new R M T in Vancouver, bc. Today we have a really engaging discussion on their expectations prior to entering massage therapy school and how this differed from the reality of their experience. Tempo shares their thoughts and what would've made the education better, adding more time for critical thinking philosophy and ethics. For example, we also have an important discussion on the importance of learning about social determinants of health. Trauma-informed care and the need for more education on pain, particularly chronic pain. Temple loves to devour information. I'm confident they'll be a highly successful therapist who makes a positive difference in people's lives. Doubt you A few weeks ago because, uh, you joined my membership community, the M M T C, and, uh, I saw you, uh, shared, you made some posts on Instagram saying that you had joined it and you were a new R M T and that you wanted to do some learning, um, before you joined or before you got the results from your board exams. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the waiting period in between exams and results was painful, so needed something to occupy the brain. Yeah, I can, I, uh, I shouldn't say I fondly remember those times, but I do remember those times, you know, waiting and anxiously like, I'm sure I did well, but you just, you never know. So. Yes, exactly. I can appreciate it's been a long time, but I can appreciate where, where you were at. Um, so I know you just, you started the membership, uh, you probably haven't done much, but, uh, we're, how are you enjoying it so far? I, I took it as a sign that I made the right decision the first webinar, talking about, um, causal narratives really got right to the heart of kind of the crisis of faith that I've been feeling since finishing school. So that was really nice. Yes. And I'm very excited about what else there is. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, that first, that first one was fantastic. I think the causal narratives by, uh, Monica, uh, Noy mm-hmm. Is fantastic. I think it really challenges a lot of what we think we know. So I'm glad that, uh, I'm glad to see that, you know, as a new R m t that you, or r m t to B as of the recording, hopefully by the time this, this makes it, you'll have successfully passed your board exams, uh, that you are having this kind of, like, these thoughts, these crises. You're like, oh my gosh, what did I learn? What am I doing? You know, and you're asking questions. Yeah. That to me is just like, I'm so thankful when I, when I encounter new RMTs that are asking those hard questions and are wanting to, you know, have sharing a bit of skepticism, uh, and what, but wanting to, to grow and that I find is, is really, uh, empowering. So that was one reason why I reached out to you. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, so I guess the first thing I'd like to ask you is, um, I'd just like to learn more about you and for the audience to learn more about you, just so we, we know who, who you are. So kind of just tell us a bit about, uh, about yourself. Cool. Okay. Um, so I graduated from the r and t program in August, um, and then did board exams right away. Um, this week we actually did get results, so I passed and I'm just going through the registration process. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, I'm really excited because, um, one of my fellow grads and I are, uh, in the process of setting up a clinic on site in a long-term care home, which is a little bit unusual. So really, really excited about that and that's just something in progress. That's amazing. Well, congrats. I've never heard thanks of RMTs working in a long-term care home, at least not in bc. Yeah. That is super, super amazing. So good for you guys. And when do you, thank you. When do you hope to have that up and going? Um, because there's, because it's in a pre-existing organization, there's lots of different moving pieces, so hopefully, um, at the start of January Oh, very cool. But currently I have, yeah, yeah. In, in between graduating and now I have been working with residents and just going in room though, which has been a really amazing experience. Wow, that's so great. And I think that's one thing that, uh, I hope, you know, RMTs, I, I think they, they, they probably don't realize that there, there's a lot more opportunities, potentially opportunities for us rather than just the kind of typical musculoskeletal clinic model. There. There's a whole other Yes. Wide range of population out there that really deserves and would benefit from what, uh, the care that we can provide. Yes. Yes. I think birth and end of life are two major opportunities to be working with people outside of like a clinic room setting. I love it. I love it. That's great. Well, I wish you all the best for that, so we'll have to keep in touch after this. Thank you. Lemme know how that goes for you. So a typical question which, you know, I remember getting asked this all the time and I kind of hated it, but you know what I'm gonna ask you anyway. What, why did you wanna become an RM T anyway? Oh gosh. And yeah, and every time someone asks you, you give a different answer. Really. Exactly. Um, I wanted to be in a healthcare role that worked one-on-one with people in, um, like a very personal context without working in mental health. Um, and I did not wanna go to school for so many years. Um, and there's a lot of chronic pain diagnoses in my family. And consistently people have said that massage therapy has been, um, the thing that's really stood out in their care to them. Amazing. So yeah, I really wanted to. Great. I mean, that's a bias of mine confirmed.'cause my area of interest is in chronic pain. And so Yeah, of course. You know, my bias is, yeah, yeah. There massage can work, uh, wonders for the kind of management of that, so, yeah. Yeah. That's very honorable. That's great. Yeah, right. People ask that question all the time, and I, people ask me that question now, like, why did you wanna become an R M T? I'm thinking, I don't really remember 'cause it was so long. It was almost 20 years ago now that I went to massage school, but I'm glad I did, but I don't really remember why I did at the time. Oh, did our, um, one of our instructors at the beginning of the program had us write a letter to ourselves, like when we finished the program. Did you have anything like that or any journal entries to look back on? No, I wish we did. That would've been actually really quite a powerful thing to see. But, uh, if we did do it, I don't remember. Got it. Because it was a while ago. But that's a, that's a really cool exercise, so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, um, I mean, congrats on your, on your, on your board exams. You're, you're gonna be working soon, which is fantastic. And, and one reason why I wanted you on this episode, uh, to kind of explore this series of stories was, uh, I wanted to, uh, kind of explore your recent, uh, experiences as a R M T student. Um, I guess the first questions is kind of what were some of your expectations? What did you expect when you went to R M T School? Hmm. Well, okay. I'd actually like to give a bit of a disclaimer before talking about school. Sure.'cause if you've been through R M T School, um, I guess I'm, I'm assuming, I don't know if it was very different in prior years, but you know, that is exhausting. It's very draining and you can feel very stretched thin. Um, so some of it feels like a bit of a blur and, um, I'm sure hindsight is going to be a bit different than when I was in the middle of it. But expectations wise, beforehand, um, I didn't have any experience with any kind of manual therapies really. So I thought things were going to be, um, more straightforward as in, um, you know, we'd learn about like, here are some problems and here are the solutions to them. And instead it ended up well, one, there's a lot of controversy, um, that has. I don't know, been quite a journey to kind of wade through. Um, and two, there's so much of it depends, which, when you're a student who has to do exams, you don't wanna hear. It depends. You wanna know, how can I do things right? Um, so yeah, that was challenging. Um, I also thought that, I thought that the challenging thing would be the material, as in I thought we would be learning about, um, concepts in science and biology, and I thought those would be, um, require a lot of, of brain power. But instead, I think the material was actually quite, um, uh, it, it wasn't challenging material. It was the sheer volume of material in a very short amount of time that made it challenging. Yeah. And that's a common thing, right? The, you go to school with this expectation, and I'm just, I'm gonna kind of paraphrase this and tell me if I, if I'm, if I'm right or wrong, here, is you like, okay, so here's a pathology, or here's a presentation, here's a condition and this is how you fix it. Kind. Yes. How a lot of us expect and, and being, you know, if you're just, if you take yourself back to the general, if you're just in the general public, you kind of, that's what you expect when you go to see a massage or physio or chiro or healthcare provider. You're like, oh, this is, they're gonna fix this thing. Uh, yeah. And when I was in massage school, so we learned ev things were more fix it approaches like, oh, like this is what you do. Mm-hmm. And these are some techniques you do, but what you're saying is, is like you kind of learn that stuff, but then there was a lot of kind of disclaimers or like, it depends stuff. Yes. Yes. And then, and then did you find that frustrating or did your, your classmates find that empowering? Because I think you can go both ways, but that's just my opinion. Hmm. I. Both simultaneously because, um, I think we had some really fantastic teachers and, um, one of, one of the kind of phrases that came up a lot is like, this, this is my recipe that I kind of fall back on, but I'm not teaching you recipes. Like here are, um, like think about the condition, think about what that means. And so in a way like that's empowering and exciting because you get to actually bring more of yourself to it and more of your creativity and your thinking brain, the problem solving brain. But on the other hand, again, you are like, I'm so tired, I just wanna do, well, I wanna pass my board exams. And all of this is just so much and kind of scary. So I think, I think both. Yeah. No, that's, that, that totally makes sense. Yeah. I think if I remember correctly too, the, um, you, you're worried that if you don't follow a recipe, if you don't do the right things, you might fail or you might not pass your, your test or you might not pass your board. Yeah, I think. There. I mean, I don't think it's possible to, uh, give an accurate representation of boards like a lot of our instructors are, they're basing how they're teaching and how they're advising us based on their experience going through board exams. Um, so then we're kind of, we get these messages now and then of like, well, don't do this on boards or make sure you do this this way for boards because that's what they want to see. And now having been through boards, I actually, my impression at least is, is that I think these people are actually very reasonable. And if, if it's logical and it makes sense and it's clear that you're applying what you understand, then it will be fine. But yeah, throughout I think there was this, you make sure you do this, this way for boards, right? So would you say that a lot of the, the, the, the program that a lot of the courses they were geared towards, like past a board exams, was that a constant focus or, um, Sort of, again, I, I feel like slightly complicated. Um, I'm really grateful the school I picked included a number of classes that, um, were not part of the curriculum, so we got more exposure to some other things. Um, I think there's some instructors who would say, like, if you were asking more questions, they'd say, don't worry about that. You don't need to know that for boards and other instructors. Um, and it also depends on what term you're in, but other instructors who are like, um, this is what you need to know for boards and this is what we want you to know for real life because like, this is more up to date, or this is, you know, real life is a little bit more complicated. Um, yeah, so I, I feel like it's a mix. It, it depended on, oh gosh, here I go. It depends. Yeah. There's so much of it depends, and I think that's, that's actually really important. Uh, I believe anyway in clinical practice is 'cause there's so much, it depends 'cause every person that comes to see you is gonna be different. They're gonna have, they may have pain in the low, they may be coming in with suffering with low back pain, but their experience of it, their expression of it, their behaviors around it, their thoughts about it are all gonna be different. So how can we apply a one size fits all approach to care when everything is different? And every massage therapist is different too. Right? How each of us treats or thinks or is, is gonna be, there should be some similarities, but there's gonna be a lot of differences in there too. So I like that, that, that there was, you got some of that. It depends kind of thing or Yes. Real life versus board exam stuff. That makes me happy to hear that that was your experience. Don't know if that is a normal experience. I think I'm going to, I guess by the time I get my way through all these, uh, interviews with, uh, recent grads will have a better idea of, of yeah. Where things are going. But it sounds so far that you're, you're really curious. Yeah. I'm curious too, why I'm doing this. This is the first interview that you're doing. This is the first one I'm doing for this series. This for this series. Yeah. So I've done some for the other series and, uh, for those people that are listening when they're listening to this, um, I'm not a hundred percent sure when this episode is gonna be released, but I'm gonna, once I get them all recorded, I'm gonna, I'll release them in bunches. Cool. Okay. So yeah, this is my first one for this, this, this series. You're the first, so we'll have to wait to get the insights. Yeah, we'll get to insights. And the insights. So maybe by the time I'm finished, my last one we'll, uh, we'll have a better i, a better consensus. Um, cool. My, uh, interest is, so when I did my, my master's, I did, uh, my areas of research I like to do is a qualitative, which is more kind of stories and getting people's, um, experiences and so that kind of appealed to me to doing this type of podcast where let's look a bunch of stories and get to a consensus. And it could be totally. It could be wrong, but I think if we get enough people mm-hmm. From across the country telling their stories about their experiences, it'll give us a, a general idea of what's out there and how, how people, um, what they're learning in the massage curriculum. So we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Uh, yeah, so that, I think it's, it's great though, 'cause you, you, you mentioned that you had some educators that were talking about Yes. Pass the board exams. Um, and some people were like, yeah, this depends, which is good 'cause it creates that. Hmm. I don't have to follow the, the, the recipe in rat tray for example, which is textbooks. Right. Where, which I know they use, and not all the schools, but I know a lot of 'em do. Um, were you, when you were told like, oh, it depends, this is real life. Were you ever given any kind of like skills or information to kind of think critically about that? Or was it like, did they ever ask you to. How do you know when it depends? And how do you know the difference from real life versus, versus the difference of what the textbooks say? Like, did your instructors ever explore that with you? Do you guys ever have conversations or classes about that? Hmm. Uh, I, I wanna say no. I, this is actually one of the things that I wish there was a lot more space and time for in the program is more of like a critical thinking analysis, like a little bit of philosophy, a little bit more of ethics. Um, I feel like the being more critical wasn't really built into the curriculum. It was more, um, we had these wonderful instructors who, um, really care about evidence-based practice in their own practice and are clearly very passionate about teaching. And so we're bringing that into their role. Um, That's a hard question. I, yeah, I don't think it's, I don't think it was really built into the curriculum. I think it was like we just had these instructors who were wonderful and kind of were like, this is complicated. Like in general, these things are complicated. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and that, I mean, it, it is great that you had those instructors, like said that were presenting it to you. But I guess, yeah, that was kind of one of my, my questions was, you know, has the curriculum developed or changed enough where they are starting to put in some philosophy or some critical thinking stuff? And you said it's not part of it, but if you're lucky enough to have a good, a good faculty member, that they will introduce that to you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that kind And it, it's, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Um, it seemed. Some, like the instructors who were bringing that in were more so the newer RMTs who have, they've been in practice long enough to return to teaching, of course. Um, and then also there's some, uh, RMTs, some instructors who've been around for a long time, but they've pursued more and higher education around these things and then have brought that back to us. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's great. That's great. The, did you find though, that it was, I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What did you find it was like when you had like these instructors that were more kind of, they're presenting some philosophy or some critical thinking versus those ones that were not. What, how did you find navigating that between those two different kind of groups of, of faculty members? Um, I think it was very interesting because those who promoted more critical thinking, they were also the people who were very ready to say, you know what, I don't really know, or I don't really have the answer. Or there isn't, I don't think there really is an answer. And I think that made them more trustworthy versus those who were more like, well, this is how we do things and we're a little bit more old fashioned. Or also the people who are like, well, don't worry, you don't need to know that for boards. Um, were more likely to say, well, because this, or this is the answer. And at times you kind of go, I don't think that is the answer. Or like, are you, are you just coming up with an answer because I asked or is that really the answer? I thought that was, yeah. So that dynamic was interesting and I think I, I really think it affects the trust that students have in those instructors. Um, is the critical thinking, the being able to say that, I don't know. I think it was easier to become more frustrated with the instructors who didn't do that. Right. The ones that gave you the, the answer and like this is just, just because you found that more harder to, to trust them. Yes, yes. Maybe not like consciously, but kind of like a subtle mistrust that you don't even realize is there. Right. And, and I think that's so interesting because you, you, the more, this is the way I feel anyway, the more we know, the more we realize we don't know. The more the, the more we, the more we learn, the less sure we are of things that we think we are. Sure. Yes. Yeah. When you have an instructor that says, you know, has some humility and is kind of humbled, like, this is the least wrong answer, maybe, or this is the, maybe a better approach if you just say, yes, this is what it's, I think that can be, I, I agree with you. I think that can be a problematic, and I, I know, like myself, been teaching Con Ed for, for so many years now and you know, when you first start teaching, you're, you become more like, yes, this is what it is. And then as time goes on, you learn more, you realize, I don't, I just try to have a series of less wrong answers or expectations. And there's very few things that we're sure of. Now obviously if we're looking at like anatomy, physiology, these things are like, some of that stuff is pretty hard sciences. But when, if we're looking at how those things influence human behavior or how our touch influences people or how our interventions or interactions can, uh, change or influence behavior or impact somebody, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Like sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. And we can't just, I don't think we should just make it up. And it sounds stupid. Yeah. And I think your experiences in school, I, I would pretty much guarantee that those experiences are probably very good reflection of what we see out in the general population of RMTs. You have those that are like, yeah, I, I learned, I've learned stuff. I've gone, I've taken more education, I've had lots of experience and I don't really know, but I, I'm okay with that. And then you have those that yeah, are like, I know everything and I am Right. Just listen to me. Or like red flag. That's a big red flag. So anyone listening, that's a red flag. Anyone says they're for sure they know something. Myself included. Red flag, question them. Be skeptical. Yes. That's something I always say be skeptical of everybody. That's great. Yeah. That's great. Um, so I guess, you know, to, to kind of just kind of just kind of keep on talking about this, um, what you were saying about, about the experiences in your curriculum, did you. You mentioned evidence-based practice was, was, was men, was, uh, talked about by some of these more, or saw, uh, talked to, we're gonna call them, um, critical thinking, um, mm-hmm. Instructors, what did you learn about evidence-based practice? Oh, um, like in from the program or from the curriculum? I hope I'm not just forgetting something because of a period of being tired in school, but I don't really think that was covered at all. Um, I think, I think the best exposure I had to, that actually came from the R M T B C, one of their scholarship essay topics was on evidence-based practice. So I went down this big rabbit hole. But in school itself, I don't, I don't think it really came up other than instructors kind of being like, Hey, this is important. Like this is something that you should consider. But it wasn't, again, it wasn't part of the curriculum. And it wasn't mentioned in any of your, your clinical classes. They never talked about like, what's the best evidence for, you know, or how, what's, you know, for this condition or this presentation. They never, they never explored or explained things or taught things that way. No, that would be really cool. That would be really cool. Um, I think there's one class where we had to pick like a research article and write a little paper about it, but I gotta be honest, like the article that I picked from the options, I, it's weird to me that it's research. Oh, um, no, I think maybe there was, Two or three instructors who they talk about something and they'd be like, well, actually this is what I read. That's a lot more current. If you guys would like the link, I'm happy to send it and share it with you. So again, those same instructors who just added so much, I think to the program, but I, not the norm, definitely not the norm, um, because they're just going out of the same textbooks that are the c mtbc recommended resources. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now, I guess this is a, this is a pretty heavy, it was pretty, um, a pretty, uh, loaded question. Do you, how, how, how do you feel about that? That the fact that evidence-based content was not a core component of your curriculum? Um, I think even if it was, doesn't mean it would be done well, if that makes sense. Like, um, I think I. Anyone can pull a bunch of studies that might support what they think. Um, and then if you're a student, you don't necessarily realize, well, maybe they're pulling studies from many years ago and there's actually more recent studies that say things differently. But you don't realize that as a student you're exhausted. You're just kind of relying on, well, especially if they're presenting it as evidence-based, then you're really kind of putting trust that it is evidence-based, but what, what research they draw from isn't necessarily the best quality. And, you know, might be dealing with topics that RMTs and their foundational education don't have enough understanding of to interpret properly. Um, so part of me is like, that would be so cool if they actually like presented evidence for these things, but at the same time, I still wonder if there wouldn't be issues with that as well. I. Mm-hmm. So you say like, think if they had, do you think? Yeah. What do I think if they, so if they had evidence-based, if they're like, yes, this is, um, we're gonna incorporate, let's say, like, evidence-based content into each course. For example, you're, you're thinking that, you're saying that even if they did, it might be biased or might not be the best available evidence anyway, because the, maybe the, the faculty, not all the faculty has the skills to translate that knowledge into, or, um, bringing that current realm evidence into that course. Also, from what I understand, the instructors are not paid for prep time. They're paid for teaching time. So for them to redevelop the course or reintegrate new evidence into the course from term to term or whoever often is necessary. I, I don't think they're really empowered to do that. There's not an incentive for them. Yeah. And I think a lot of the instructors give so much already outside of their teaching time that I, I would totally understand them not wanting to put more into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And this is not about blaming anybody, it's just more about just, uh, yeah, yeah. Exploring these, these topics. And, and, and I would say too that, you know, if you're an R M T and you're working and you're building on a hundred and fifteen, a hundred twenty, a hundred twenty $5 an hour, whatever, you know, and then you're teaching the school for, I don't know, 35, 40, 50, maybe $60 an hour, depending on where you're at. Yeah. Uh, and you're only getting paid when you're there. It's, it's, it's, it's asking a lot for them to mm-hmm. Take the time to maybe bring in more, more content unless it's something they're really passionate about. And I'm sure it sounds like you had some instructors that were, and that, and that's what they wanted to do. Yeah. But I would say for looking at, there's nine, or I think there's nine massage schools in BC right now, you know, how many instructors would there be in each school? You know, that's asking. A, a lot for, for people to, to mm-hmm. Time on. So, um, yeah, it's interesting. Uh, so you asked, you asked me, you asked me how do I feel? I, I think personally, I mean bias. Um, but this is something I, I am involved with, uh, not in BC but in some places outside of bc uh, looking at kind of incorporating evidence-based curriculum, uh, or content into the curriculum. And yes, I think that the, uh, really the foundation should be like, you shouldn't be teaching healthcare providers stuff that is not, doesn't have an evidence-based or support behind it. If, if you're teaching belief based content or things based only on personal experience, That's okay. Personal experience, clinical experience is part of evidence-based practice, but you need to have, uh, a scientific and biological plausibility or best practices research to support that. So, uh, I think it's, that's a, that's a big problem. That is, that is, I think, holding our profession back from realizing it's true potential. Because if you're taking a, a course, and let's just say you learn a course on arthritis or tendinopathies, or choose a pathology or a presentation, uh, that somebody might come in with, and if you're not learning what's the current evidence say about this? Mm-hmm. What, what are, what, what's the least wrong thing to do with these people? How do we communicate this to people? How do we rule out red flags? Uh, when should we refer and what's, what's the limitations, uh, of, of what we do with our hands and, and what's kind of the best, you know, Advice we can give or education we give to people and what movements are are okay and safe and which ones are not. And you know, there's so much evidence out there that's not hard to find, but it's just a matter of incorporating that into the curriculum. And I don't, I think you could, I'm, I'm down my soapbox here. You, you got me going. Um, is that, if is, you don't have to change a lot about the core curriculum, even though, I mean, we could have a whole other episode or series of episodes on, on the curriculum and I might do that. Uh, but the, um, there's, so, there's so much available evidence out there that could actually, would require very little changing of how things are done in the, in the, in the school. Mm-hmm. It's a matter of tweaking it. And you adding a couple of things here and there. So are you going to get involved in the schools, in any schools in the future? Are you currently. I just feel like, I'm like, wow, it sounds like you have such a great idea. How can this actually happen? Uh, so yeah, I guess my podcast, so I can say whatever the hell I want. Uh, I, I would like to be involved a little bit more in the schools here, but what I've found is, um, there's only been one school that has actually actually reached out to me, and that's in, in, um, Vernon, the O V C M T. And so I've, I've done a, a little bit of stuff with them. Um, but other than that, the, the schools and BC I've reached out to a lot of them. I am lucky if I get an individual instructor who wants to like, Hey, can you, you know, can you talk to my class? Do you wanna present some things? But when you go and talk to the, the people that run the schools, they don't really care. Mm-hmm. So, uh, currently I am, um, I have a contract to work with a school, um, in, uh, Alberta. So M H School, which is in, they have a campus in Calgary and Edmonton. I am, um, I have a contract with them as a curriculum advisor, and some of the stuff that they want to do is to try to incorporate some of these ideas that I have, so we'll see. Cool. Yeah. So hopefully it'll spread. That's exciting. First step. Yeah. Hopefully it'll spread. Yeah. Uh, I do have lots of ideas. Uh, it's just a matter of, of getting, having people, I guess, uh, want to change. Right. And I know there's, if we look like, take the big zoom out approach and we look at things like, you know, there is legislation involved and it's hard, like for the college to change the curriculum and for the R M T V C and for the schools to change their curriculum. Like there need, it's, it's not as easy as it is in other professions because we don't have. Like an independent research, uh, group that everyone can draw information from to help inform the curriculum. Uh, so it's a little more difficult. It's a little more difficult here, I think, than in maybe in some unregulated provinces. Gotcha. As well as two is it, is, is we look at how many massage schools there are in Canada. We look at how some provinces are regulated, some are unregulated. I think until we have a national standard and with a, with a, and with that national standard, if there is like a, I don't know, a research committee or a curriculum advisory committee or something that informs that, I think that would be how we could make these changes. But the problem is, is there's many different individual stakeholders all over the place. I think it's very hard for the profession to Yeah. Kind of get on board. So what we're left with is individual schools, individual instructors trying to do their best. Yeah. I, I'm really curious. Um, I wanna say it was like a year ago, I messaged you on Instagram, 'cause I listened to one of your podcast episodes with Jamie, um, where you're kind of talking about this, uh, realm of ideas and, um, you said something like about how it's actually the schools that need to change the curriculum, not the college board's requirements. Mm-hmm. And I've just like, thought about this and I'm like, what do you mean really? Because you know, like when students go to pick what school they want to attend, they look at board exam, passing rates, um, and then the whole time you're, you're in school, you, you just wanna pass the board exams 'cause you need a job. You need to pay back the tuition you're paying. Um, and the schools are Yeah. Shaping what they're teaching based on passing the board exams. So they have those rates that students see and then register. So what, yeah, what would that. Do you think there would be like, um, uh, an uncomfortable transition period where passing rates would be lower and then the board kind of catches up? Or what would that look like? That's a really good question. I feel strongly that if you had, you would need almost like an independent third party that would, that, that'cause trying to get all nine schools in BC for example, to communicate and to coordinate what they wanted to teach would be very difficult because I just don't think it would happen.'cause they're private businesses, they have their own interests. Of course each school is gonna wanna do their best. Um, but it's also extremely expensive for them to change the entire curriculum in their school. Right. You would need, you would need. Probably a couple hundred thousand dollars in, in, because you have to pay a bunch of people and you have to train the faculty. And it would, it would cost a lot of money. And I don't think the individual schools, uh, most of 'em are gonna want to invest in that. So the way I see it is that you would probably need a third party, an independent party, maybe if all the schools said, Hey, where are the, contribute some money into this group that was able, was gonna maybe redo the curriculum or update the curriculum. And then they could, then that curriculum could go and the college could then could say, Hey, this is what, this is what, this is what you have come up with. Okay. Then we'll, we'll create a board exams to reflect that, that change in the curriculum as long as it's within the scope of practice, from what I understand. Can do it, but because the, as far what I understand, because the, the college, their mandate is not to necessarily do the, the exam or their only, their mandate is only to protect the public by, um, incorporating the what's given to them by the Ministry of Health. Hmm. Okay. And then so, but their, their job is not necessarily to, to redo the board exams. Um, they used to be able to, but I think there's been some changes. Um, but interesting enough about that. But however, however, I still think that based on that, that episode that you li you were talking about, that you listened to before, that we could, and we should, the school should have the responsibility to update their, how they're teaching their stuff. And they could still teach the exact same stuff for people to pass the board exams. And I think if you think of your experience, You have these great instructors that, you know, like, yeah, this is what you need to know for the board exams. This is what's real life. And they kind of give you some ideas and some kind of critical thinking, uh, or maybe some evidence about what's real or not real, or what's wrong and less wrong. Mm-hmm. Uh, then the, the schools can still do that, right? They just need to change, they just need to train the faculty. Yeah. And you could still do that and get people to pass the board exams and, you know, uh, I used to be a board examiner for years, like a long time ago. Oh, 10 years ago now. I was a board examiner for, I dunno, maybe three years. And I felt that at that time we were never looking for techniques. We e even 10 years ago, we were never looking for anything specific. We were just making sure that people understood what was presented in front of them and that they would do something that was not harmful. Gotcha. And so, you know, we learn all these different, you just made it sound so much less intimidating. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the thing, right? Is so much, so often, right? Is every R M T I talk to says, oh, you know, I just wanna pass the board exams. I'm so freaked out. I'm like, don't be freaked out with the board exams. The written part is hard because it's just like, here's facts, but the, the, the practical aspect is, is not that difficult. It's like, if you know how to interact with somebody and find a way to make them feel good and you have like 20, 30 minutes to do it, that's great. That's all you need to do, right? You just touch them nicely and make them feel better and give them some advice based on their presentation. That's all you need to do. It doesn't have to be that specific. Okay. But define it to be specific. Like, it's like, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this. You're like, well, not really. Yeah. Interesting because of course you have people who share their horror stories of like, this person failed because they didn't do this specific thing that was expected. And then that creates all these myths. Well, there's so many myths out there. I get, I I bet, I bet you there's so many, I'm, I haven't heard any in, in a while, but the, the people I know that pa that failed the board exams, it's usually because they panicked and they missed something big. Like maybe there's a red flag or, or something that they should have addressed. Or maybe, you know, the person had a very specific, um, injury or presentation and the person completely ignored it. Oh, no. Stress brain. Yeah. Like, so like, oh, the person comes in with like, with a shoulder pain and you don't treat the shoulder. Gotcha. Right. And you're like, okay, well you didn't even know where the shoulder is. You shouldn't be healthcare provider until you can learn where the shoulder is. I'm being a bit flippant, but you know, that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. Yes, for sure. Yeah. That is not what you think going into it though, that's for sure. No, and it's fresh in your brain right now. Right? So your your mindset. Yeah. You remember what it's like. So, but I, I think overall, it sounds like you enjoyed the program. It sounds like you, overall, you enjoyed your, your experiences in massage school. Is that fair? Yes. Yeah. I really liked the school that I went to. I really feel that I made the best choice. Yeah. But there's some gaps now that you're seeing in some of the stuff that you learned, but that's, that's okay. Um, so we, we, we, we were just talking about evidence-based practice, which is kind of like a, it's kinda this catchall term and, and, and, uh, 'cause it is, it is kind of a, a big, a big thing, right? But what about, uh, things like pain science or like bio psychosocial? Were these kind of buzzwords or, or any of this kind of stuff talked about in your, in your school? Um, sort of like yes and no. Um, right before I started the program, I took pain foundations from Pain bc, which was amazing. Like very, like it was so great. And then going into the program, I think from that I had higher expectations for what we would learn about pain and pain science. Um, so I felt quite disappointed. Um, I don't think like, again, these instructors who are kind of offering more, they bring up bio-psychosocial, but I don't think, like, from my perspective, that maybe just should have been the framework that we looked at everything from rather than something that was kind of mentioned later on and talked about here and there. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I don't think there's much about chronic pain, um, like pain that lingers that maybe is less related to biomechanical factors. There wasn't a lot about that. Um, which again, just from my family experiences, I think there should be a lot more of. Right. Yeah. And that's, that's, that meets my bias too, is that the, you know, what's number one reason, that's why I ask, and I always ask people this question in, in my courses is like, what's the number one reason why anybody comes to see a massage therapist? Hmm. They hurt, they're in pain. And their pain is generally impacting their quality of life, their ability to do something right. Or, you know, maybe, maybe people just wanna come in for relaxation. Maybe they just wanna use their benefits up, whatever. But most people when they go see an M S K healthcare provider come to see'em because they hurt, they're in pain. Yeah. And so it is always, this is another loaded kind of statement here, but tell me what you think. Mm-hmm. Don't you find it? Almost negligent that the number one reason why people come to see us is'cause of pain, but it's the one thing we learn the least about in school. Oh, negligent. That's a big word. It's a big word. I, I do wish, I think this actually ties into what I think is the most lacking in the program is I think we should have had a little bit of sociology, like talking about social determinants of health and how that affects people's experience of pain. I think trauma-informed practice that should not be a continuing ed thing that should be covered in school, like for any healthcare practitioners, but especially RMTs who work with people in very vulnerable positions. Um, and like philosophy and ethics and a bit more encouragement to examine your personal values and how those may affect the care you provide. Because all of that is so important to people's experience of, of pain, and I don't think any of that was really. Addressed, unfortunately. Yeah. I love how you're saying the experience of pain. I can tell you're somebody that is well immersed in kind of the, the pain literature or the, the, the lived experience of pain. Because that's the thing is it's so often it, it's pain is, it's an experience, right? Like, and, and so, but so often it's taught as something that can be fixed or something that is wrong. That needs to be, yeah, something needs to change or fixed for it. But a lot of times it's just, it's an experience and that, you know, maybe we can't change it. Maybe you can alter it a little bit, but I love that you're, you know mm-hmm. Granular mt and you're already thinking, oh, pain is an experience. Uh, and it's a personal subjective experience. It's every, it's so unique to everybody. And I think that, yeah, it actually foundational knowledge to me, like if you just had to, in your pain course, and if you had a pain course in your first term, and it was like, yeah, pain is an experience. It's different for everybody. It's unique, it's subjective, you know? Mm-hmm. You don't always know what's. Why they have it and why people suffer more than others. We don't know why. Some it lingers, some it doesn't. Maybe there is some systemic issue. Maybe there's like an old injury, maybe there's, uh, inflammation, maybe there's whatever. Yeah, you don't always know, but it's an experience we have to accept and validate. So important. But yeah. Yeah. I like that. That would be amazing. In the first term, like right from the outset or even just looking at pain, not as like, someone has pain here. Well, they probably have this posture and this posture is dysfunctional, and, uh, they're gonna suffer these consequences unless you fix their posture by doing X, Y, Z. Um, versus like, how do they feel about their pain? Where did they believe that their pain is coming from? Or what did they think is contributing to it? And do they want to resolve their pain? I. Is that even, like, what, what are their goals around that? Like that's, yeah. I negligent is such a big word, but I do think it's really unfortunate that that's not, um, more of the approach. Yeah. Yeah. I, I I, I, I purposely use the word negligent because I think it, of everything, you know, I don't wanna be overly critical, but I think of everything that is, that should be emphasized in any M s k profession. Well, it doesn't matter what it's, that, it should be, it should be understanding that experience of pain, or at least having, what I say, a less wrong understanding of it. And that should be your foundation. Mm-hmm. Because everything's gonna build from that. Uh, so I think that the, the profession, you know, with you in it, like, is gonna be better because of it, because you are already understanding and, and, and you, and appreciating like the complexity of pain and Yeah. Posture, uh, I don't know, maybe posture's a part of it. Maybe it's a risk factor, but is it causative? Mm-hmm. You don't know. Probably not. The evidence says probably not. You know, maybe what happens when you correct that, that you, I'm air quotes, this is an audio, you can't see it. Air quotes, uh, air quotes, uh, the, uh, you correct that, that posture and guess what? Maybe they still have pain. So what else is it? And it leads us searching for something else. Right? And then, and then what can happen too, we're gonna follow this kind of train of thinking is oftentimes what'll happen, and I see this all the time, and I'm, I'm guilty of this too. I, I was guilty. I try to be less guilty about it. Now, is then we start thinking, okay, well maybe what are these, these socioeconomics, these, these psychosocial factors or lifestyle factors, other things that might be influencing their pain? We have to be very, very careful about not blaming those too. Mm-hmm. Because some of the stuff you can't change and some of the stuff too, like Yeah. You know, the, the whole explain pain thing, which is all about like trying to educate people about their pain. And that's hopefully changing how they think about it. But in a lot of cases, that just makes people feel worse.'cause it make some, it's like blaming their thoughts or blaming their something. They don't have control. So we have to be very careful, I think when we're understanding pain that we don't start blaming specific things, whether that's tissue structure or whether it's thoughts, ideas, beliefs, or whether it's, you know, psychosocial or socioeconomic status. Those things are all risk factors. Yeah, potentially. But they're not necessarily causative. And I think that's, I don't know. You could do that in term one in like a day and just plant those seeds and then have your each, each other instructor kind of emphasize that along the way. I think the having one day, I think there's lots of things where we like had one day or one class, but it's like it needs to be part of the overall perspective that things are approached from, I think to actually stick with these very tired and overstretched students. Yeah, it's exhausting, right? It's just basically getting drinking from the fire hose for two years, you know? It's hard. Exactly. So obviously tempo, I mean, you are, I mean, I, I'm gonna say that you are, you, you seem super informed, super engaged. Uh, what about your classmates? Were you unique in your classmates or were you guys all kind of like you? Um, oh gosh, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what other people are doing at home. Um, I think I am, inevitably, I like to devour information and I think that's a bit unusual. Um, I think it really varies'cause everyone entered the program from a different starting point. Like some people have kinesiology backgrounds, some people came from accounting or dental hygiene. Um, and everyone has their own prior experiences with their own pain or pain in the, the people they have close relationships with. I, I think, like, I, I would like take a little, uh, certificate online and then I'd like share that with my class. Like, Hey, I found this really informative. And I think people are like, great, I'm gonna bookmark that and save that for when I'm done school, which is very understandable. But I think for me at least, I, um, I kept going like, why aren't we going deeper with this? Like, I feel like this is more complicated and I, I will better learn it. Like sometimes by overlearning you actually make it easier for yourself rather than Yeah. If that makes sense. Yep. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Yeah. So were you, so were you maybe a bit of a unicorn in your class? Like you there not everybody was maybe as critical or skeptical or wanting to learn more? Hmm. I don't, I don't know. I feel, I, I don't know how to answer this. I feel like I don't wanna sound like egotistical or like, I, I don't think that I'm special. I think there's other people. Um, I think everyone kind of had their, their strengths and their different interests. Like, there's people in my class who really went hard with like, the biomechanical model of things. That is still really not something I wrap my brain around, but I'm more drawn to like, like I mentioned before, like, um, more of like intricacies of boundaries and like dynamics with patients and like difficult conversations and how to navigate them. Like that's just more what I saw as being important to spend my time on, um, rather than some of the stuff that we were actually learning in class. Yeah. Well, I, and I would say that if we look at, you know, look at, I'm say if we're gonna take an evidence-based approach, the stuff that you were talking about is, you know, oftentimes people call that the, the hard skills or the soft skills, sorry. But those are the hard skills. Right. You know, I, I, I, yeah. Interacting with people. I'm just saying the stories, things like you talking about trauma, you know, all these things are super, super important.'cause if you can't interact or understand a human, it's really hard. Like, even if you take that super biomechanical approach, which there's a, there's a time and place for that. And we don't wanna throw everything under the bus. We don't wanna swing the pendulum too far one way. Um, but if you're really like, into biomechanics and changing how people move and stand and do all their stuff, but you lack the ability to understand them. Mm-hmm. I think you're, you're, you're still missing the most important thing, which is the person. Yeah. That's what I think at least. Yeah. Hey, we're I, some people we're having a conversation where both, where we can both confirm each other's lives. That's fine. I, I think there's still some people though who are like, um, maybe they want that doctor with the poor bedside manner, but they come across as a genius. Yeah. So I'm sure there's value to that as well. Yeah. Yeah. There's, well, there's time in place for everything. Right. And I think that's, that's, we have to be mindful too, is that not one approach is the best approach. It really depends on, and I'm sure when you're out there working with the masses of people, that you'll see that, you know, like you kind of almost have to be a chameleon. You have to kind of change Yeah. You know how to adapt.'cause one person maybe wants that. They're like, just tell me what to do. You know, tell me what's wrong and tell me. And you're like, well, let's try this. And if you're confident about it, they may try it and maybe they get better. You're like, great. That's what worked for them. Now the person might come in and they might present with the exact same thing, but they might need a different approach. That's the mm-hmm. That's the, that's why they call it a practice, not a perfect. We have these clinical practices, right? So we can try to try to, uh, find out what that person needs in front of us. And that's the hardest skill to learn. Yeah, it feels daunting for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, the only way you can do it is with time and practice, but I think you, it sounds like already you're on, on the right path, which, which I, which I love, I think is great. I feel is great. Cool. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. So, um, I guess a couple more questions here. Uh, just before you know, we wrap this up. Um, so overall you enjoyed your, your, your experience at school. You passed your board exams. They, they did what they're supposed to do and kind of preparing you to the, the entry level practice. That's the kind of, that's what they use, that entry level, the practice standard. If you could in, in an ideal world, money, time, whatever is not an issue, what do you think needs to happen for the schools to. Reach a level of what we're gonna say is excellence. What do they need to do to produce RMTs that are even better than they are right now? I, okay. I feel conflicted saying this because, well, yeah. Um, currently the program is two years or 20 months, depending on the program that you pick, um, long. And that's, as I said earlier on, that's a huge reason why people go pick going to R M T School. It's only two years. Um, the whole time I was in it though, I was like, why is this only two years long? Why are they cramming so much in just such a short time? So I think a really huge thing, um, would be even extending it by a year and having slightly longer breaks in between the terms. Um, or just allowing more time for students to be human beings. Um, I think sometimes we'd have like two weeks in between terms and that's just not enough. And sometimes three weeks in between and that's okay. And every time you return from a break, you're just like, whoa. It's like there's so much simmering going on subconsciously. And I feel like that's what was really lacking is that time for you to actually digest and absorb and kind of process and integrate and to have like, just to have more spaciousness, I actually think would drastically increase. Yeah. The, the quality of, of your learning. Um, I also think it would be amazing to bring in more instructors who are not just RMTs. Um, we had some instructors who worked in medicine, um, who were teaching, but for the most part it's RMTs teaching future RMTs. But what if, again, going back to like. Some, a little bit of sociology, some trauma-informed practice, some philosophy, ethics related to healthcare. Um, I think it would be so cool to have, um, people from different fields, um, or who teach other, um, fields of practitioners as well come and, and talk about those things in the program. Um, I also think, um, 'cause the clinical experience you have in like outreaches or student clinic, those are huge. But you're, again, you're so tired and you're stretched thin that you're trying to analyze and apply what you learned, but you're also trying to hold space for this human being that you're interacting with. And that's frustrating because you're so like worn down. Again. Having more space to increase the quality of those interactions, I think would go a long way. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Ideal world. That'd be perfect. Yeah. So basically increasing the length of the program, but also putting breaks in there so you can kind of integrate and just recharge. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I think it used to be three years. Is that true? It used to be three, three years? Yeah. Yeah. When I went to school, it was a three year program. Um, they had an accelerated program, which is basically, um, it used to be seven semesters and it, they would space it out over three years. So you go for like two terms. You like a term off, and then they did that. Mm-hmm. Uh, when I went, uh, we were part of an accelerated program, which was seven semesters, same length of time, but it was all bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, right. One after another. So it took just over two and a half years, I guess it was maybe 28 months. Wow. Or 30 months. So it was done quicker. Uh, but I remember it being overwhelming too. Like you just had so much information. Uh, now looking back, knowing what I know now, it was great length of program. I thought.'cause it, it did give you lot of stuff, but so much of the stuff we learned was nonsense. And so they got rid of, uh, and the last stuff they got rid of was, uh, modality courses, like these very different modality, uh, courses like we did on craniosacral and we did lymph drainage and we did like a advanced myofascial course. So we learned all this stuff. But you're like, you know, you could have easily put in something way more valuable than those. Hmm. Yeah. Trying, and this is a big thing that I'm all about, is like really trying to move away from all these different named modalities because it doesn't matter how we push, pull, or twist skin, doesn't matter what we call it. One can't be right and the other one can't be wrong. Right? There's all these different stories to explain what our hands do, but we know when we look at the literature that the mechanisms of what we do is all the same, just different ways of interacting with somebody. But that's true. There's, uh, anyway, there, there's a lot of emphasis on, on different named techniques. I think it would be very, I would love to see the schools move towards a, here's manual skills, 1, 2, 3, 4, whatever it is. But it's just different ways of touching people rather than giving them these complicated explanations or like, in this course, am I getting your clients or is this course, am I getting rid into facia in this course? Am I, what am I doing? You know, it's like, no, it doesn't matter the sub sub worrying about that stuff, and let's just focus on how to make the person feel better and these are some different ways we can try and do that. Yes. And so many of them, you're like, well, I could chart it as this, but I could chart the same thing as this. Like, yeah. It's just a matter of Yeah. What you're calling it or how you're describing it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know, that's, I'm gonna probably do some episodes on, on that, probably on my own. Uh, I gonna explore that idea because it just, I feel that it does a disservice to the profession. I feel like it does a disservice to the public when everyone's like, Hey, I am a such and such therapist, and insert your favorite acronym here. I'm like, why does it matter? Those stories might not be a hundred percent true. Um, I think as a profession we worry about that more than the public worries about that. I have a question about this though. Sure.'cause okay, we had a craniosacral class. I was like, this is super weird and I'm very skeptical, but my skepticism makes me more curious. I does it not have value? Simply through, there's patients who really believe in craniosacral and have a right to hold that belief and kind of like their investment and the value that they place in that is a huge part of what makes it, um, effective for them. Like I, I, I like this idea of, um, yeah, like not teaching things as like these separate modalities, but it's like these things really have believers, I guess. Yeah. And if, if they have information and informed consent is being used, that's, that's okay. Right. What do you think my thoughts on that are? Yeah, sometimes people have clients, patients will have these very strong beliefs and if we go and try and dismantle those beliefs, it can sometimes cause I'd say more harm than, than good. I would say though, if they have a belief, let's use craniosacral 'cause that's what we're talking about. If they had a belief about craniosacral changing cerebral spon and fluid flow and altering sutures and all the stuff that, that kind of cranial, um, belief system talks about, if they have all those beliefs about it and that's negatively impacting their quality of life. Mm-hmm. I would say, you know, we should, I think as a, as a evidence-based ethical healthcare provider, we should say, we should say, Hey, I have some information about this. Do you want, like, ask them permission? Do you wanna, do you wanna hear about this? Um, and then what I always say is, what I feel is that it's not necessarily the, we're not disputing the outcomes, we're disputing the mechanisms. And the story and narratives and beliefs. So if that sta that narrative and belief is negatively impacting their quality of life, I think it's worth saying, Hey, like I have something I wanna share with you. Do you wanna hear more about this? If they're like, I don't care, then we're not gonna force that on them. Yeah. But they're like, Hey, you know what? I can still do this, but I just want you to know that there, I've read some research and you know, I know I'm not, I'm not changing these things, but I know that you feel better. So I'm just going to do, hold your head nicely, put my hands here and we'll do that stuff. And so I think it's important for us to say, look, the mechanisms aren't supported, the outcomes, the person feels better. We can't dispute that. Gotcha. But I think it's for people that don't have any beliefs about that stuff, I don't think we should be selling them those false beliefs. So someone comes in, you're like, I'm a cranio psychotherapist. Then what happens if you're, if, if everybody comes in and you're like, oh, this is what's wrong with you. I'm feeling this here. I'm doing this year. Well, we know that's not how things work. So it's, I think it's important for us to provide, uh, informed, ethically informed care, which is, I think what the term you use there too, is that we shouldn't be telling people stories we can't support.'cause we do have an ethical obligation to give them the least strong information. But if they strongly hold onto those beliefs and they're, and it's giving, and it's providing them some increase in quality of life, I would say, you know, we, we'd have to be very careful about how we approach that because that could be something that's meaningful to them and we could actually probably do some harm. Mm-hmm. If we just say, that's garbage, you know, we don't wanna do that. Oh, absolutely not. Okay. I. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm okay to be wrong, but, uh, that's one thing right there that I, I am, I've never had a compelling argument used against me on that to say, oh no, that's wrong. I'm like, no, I think it, it's pretty logical. I think it makes sense. I think that's fair. Well, I think even your answer is, is still an it depends. You're not taking totally a broad stance. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, yeah. I'm one of those instructors that's like, it's, it depends. Some people out there though are, are much more, um, strong about that where're like, Nope, it's garbage. You can't do that. You can't say that. I'd say, well, it depends is the, the meaning of the person practice. So anyway, yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting thing to, to think about. Uh, so I guess, you know, we've, this has been, this has been great tempo, so thanks for being here. I guess just one last question for you. Um, what are kind of some of the future directions you want to take? What kind of things do you wanna learn more about in your professional development? Oh my goodness. Um, I feel, yeah, a, a bit confused. Well, amidst the crisis of faith on that, I think, uh, maybe one of the first things is around communication. Um, p I read, oh gosh, I don't even know what it was called. It's a PhD, it's a dissertation. Um, it's a paper by Peter Stillwell. And one of the things he talks about is, um, use of different metaphors. And I feel like I would really like to have, I'd like to learn more about, and I'd like to have a really strong grasp of, um, good suggestions for metaphors to use when talking about pain or dysfunction that are empowering and, um, reasonably. Good representations of the complexity of those experiences rather than like oversimplifying them. And then, um, you know, like giving a view of the body being broken or, uh, looking at it like a machine. So I think, yeah, things around communication and language and, um, yeah, dynamics with patients. I don't really know where to find that at this point in time, but I'm just constantly searching for, for resources. And I'm sure there's some things, um, in the future webinars for the, uh, manual movement therapists community to look forward to. Yes. We'll do a little shameless plug there. There is, there is a lot of stuff, there's a lot of webinars in the M M T C where they talk about language and communication and kind of reframing that kind of thing. Uh, if you look, if you like podcasts, uh, I would say if you're looking for a podcast on language, words Matter podcast is really great. Uh, Dr. Oliver Thompson, he's based in the uk uh, he talks a lot. Hence the title Words Matter talks a lot about, you know, the language and, and, and stuff we use. And he brings in lots of really, uh, big name researchers and educators too. So. Cool. He's got a website as well. Thank you. Yeah, so I, I would, I would search him, he actually has a presentation on the M M T C where he talks about, um, oh, language and reframing for, I think for low back pain. So that'll be, that'll be in there as well for you. Awesome. Yeah, I look forward to it. Yeah, so, well, that's great. Well, you have the whole world ahead of you now, uh, tempo. So you've got, you know, you've got, uh, you've got your practice starting. You've got a whole new career as an R M T, and you've got lots of good questions and you're, I think you have a healthy level of skepticism. Uh, it's really good to hear that your experience in school was, uh, not terrible other than probably the stress of time and anxiety. Uh, but it sounds like you had some good faculty that has kind of prepared you for a little bit more of the, we're gonna say is the complexity of the real world. So I wish you all the best and thanks for being here today. Thank you so much. I got to learn so much from you. This is awesome. Thank you. We'll talk again. Sounds good. Thank you for listening. Please subscribe so you can be notified of all future episodes. Purpose versus is available on all major podcast directories. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on all your social media platforms. To learn more about my Virtual Learning community, the Manual Movement Therapist community, otherwise known as the M M T C, please visit my website eric purvis.com and click on the link to online courses, or you can check it out in the show notes. I do have a direct link for you and you can get your first month for free using the discount code M M T C free.