The New RMT Experience with Christian Lacsamana

Welcome Christian Lacsamana to Purves Versus and to the profession of massage therapy. Christian is a new RMT in Vancouver, BC. He was previously a kinesiologist who decided he wanted to pursue a career in massage therapy so he could offer additional benefits to his clients rather than just exercise and movement.

Our conversation focuses on his experiences in school and what his first year of practice has been like. Christian shares what he enjoyed and what he felt could be improved upon in the curriculum and he tells us about the future endeavours he wants to pursue as an RMT.

We discuss the mixed messaging in RMT education, the importance of language and communication styles, the importance of mental health and ongoing self-care and how creating a sense of community and support in embracing change in how continuing education is delivered is necessary for moving forward as a profession.

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Transcript

0:14  
All right, Christian, thanks for coming here today for being on my podcast. I appreciate you taking the time to be here with me. I believe we connected probably about a year and a half ago through Instagram, I think you followed me or I followed you or something. And you were just finishing up your your schooling. And our we showed you to be on this this episode because I was curious to hear about your experiences. RMTS are relatively new RMT. And so today, we're going to discuss a little bit about your RMT experience and what the schooling was like. And then kind of just you can tell us a little bit more about your experience now being a new RMT and what it's like working. So thanks for being here today. Just tell us a little bit a little bit about Christian.

0:57  
Thank you. Thank you, Eric, for inviting me to the podcast. I really appreciate this. Yeah, so my name is Christian laksamana. I am a new RG. It's been a good year now. And I went to a public school in Vancouver. I really enjoyed my time there. Prior to studying massage therapy, I was a kinesiologist. I have a bachelor's degree with kinesiology and I practice a little bit with that and realise somewhere in there that I wanted to do some form of natural manual therapy. And that's when I really looked at massage therapy. I, you know, did my due diligence to ask some newer RNGs some RMT that I've met over the years working as a kid that's been working for 1020 years just to get it done. And yeah, no, I thought the programme was fast paced. I thought there was a lot of stuff that I learned that I didn't I didn't think I would learn in the programme. So such as classes, like heavily on neurology and definitely pathology. Um, but yeah, was there anything specific that you wanted to ask me, Eric, to just start this discussion?

2:17  
No, just just curious just to get an idea about who you are. And just because we've connected a little bit on Instagram, and and that's one thing I find is funny as it sounds like seems like most of the newer empties, I connect with her on Instagram seems like the old RMTS so been around for a while or on Facebook and the new generation I always seem to connect with on Instagram. So it's kind of a generational thing. You can tell how old somebody is by what social media has

2:40  
perhaps. Yeah.

2:43  
No, I guess so. The one thing I was curious about too, is you do see this a lot in massage. You see a lot of people that come from a Kinesiology background. What was your What was your experience like working as a as a kinesiologist.

2:57  
So I've never registered with the BCA. I've always worked in a recreational communal setting. So I was training people in at BJH through the cardiac rehab programme over there. I also did that in a recreational setting in Vancouver, doing one on one work with people with cardiac issues. I've also delved in into helping people we have post joint replacement, and there was a lot of stuff that I was hearing from such clients that they were seeing massage therapist, they're seeing a physio and I thought perhaps becoming an AR T was a form of possibly bridging that gap. I wanted to do more than exercise therapy. And I was like, You know what, if I can only do learn some form of manual therapy in some way or another, perhaps I can be a better person better clinician to these people. And that's really what started my journey into into massage therapy.

4:03  
Nice. Did you find that there was a like having a nice background? So you're you were very comfortable with like an exercise prescription and kind of getting people moving and stuff and then the RMT Do you find that like that that combination? Do you feel that it's kind of a good foundation for your journey as being like a healthcare provider.

4:25  
Um, I can only speak from my experience and I thought entering the school, I was used to fast pace, studying per se. There was a lot of courses, at least in the first year of the programme for the RMP programme that I felt like okay, I knew this I know that I have a pretty good sense on understanding thing that but at the same time, like I sort of noticed in the second half of the programme, there was a lot of things that was super specific to massage therapy that I was you know, I didn't Quite learn much during my kinesiology schooling. So

5:08  
what? What kind of things were specific? Like you're talking more like kind of the hands on type modality stuff? Or where do you when you're saying not,

5:16  
yeah has gone stop hands on stuff and also learning a lot more about systemic conditions, pathology contraindication, stuff like that. And then later on just this is more, more, probably more during my first year as an RMP that I was like, okay, the soft skills was a little bit more important. And also seeing seeing the person as a whole not not the condition. Right. Yeah, that's kind of the pain stuff, right?

5:51  
Yeah, yeah. And that's actually one thing I wanted to discuss with you about that was, and you said that the soft skills which is, which is really, really important, and I will say it's a soft skills, but those are I think those are the hard skills. Anyway.

6:04  
I agree. I agree.

6:06  
Yeah. And so in your programme, did you guys learn much about, like treating the whole person or focusing on the individual? Or is it still a lot of it, like, you're, you're focusing on a tissue or a body part.

6:23  
Um, from what I remember, it was, it was mostly the latter, it was still learning and condition, treating a specific area of the body. Although I will say, as the programme progresses, it was, there was a turning point where some of the instructors at the school that I went to, in Vancouver was, they really kind of wanted us to hone and understand that it was more than the condition, it was more than the injury. It was. It was, you know, the whole person and what's going on with them, right. You know, the term that we like to use nowadays, the biopsychosocial model that was introduced early on, in the first half of the programme. And I felt like it was almost at the end of the programme, they kind of brought that back, you know, we've learned so much about massage therapy, all of the conditions, whether it's systemic orthopaedic, a little bit of both all these modalities that we've learned all these techniques, but I found that the school where I went, there was a few instructors that really highlighted that, you know, what, go back to the some of the notions that you've learned in turn one, and now you can really understand why those apply when, you know, moving forward becoming an RMT. And in the real world, right? Yeah.

7:53  
That's great to hear, though, that you were introduced to that that kind of terminology, first term. In the courses I teach, one of the things I often ask people is like, Who's familiar who's been who knows what bio psychosocial means, or who's familiar with the term? And I would say, on average, and is probably 80 to 90%. People don't really know what it means I've never been introduced the term before. And these are people who've been practising already. So it's really encouraging to hear that in your first half of your programme. In the first year, you're already been like, yeah, here's some, here's something we're thinking about the whole person, right. So thinking about not just the body part, but the zoom out approach, which is great. And you said that you had some instructors that came in, and they kind of like, brought that back? And that's one thing that I'm actually really curious about what the student experience is, what was the consistency like among the faculty? Like, did you find that there was some inconsistent messages? Or was the faculty kind of all kind of saying the same type of thing?

8:50  
Hmm, that's a very good question. I there, I can absolutely remember instances where there was a bit of a mixed message with certain stuff. So let's talk about modality wise, right, some of the manual therapy things and modality courses, right. There was a lot of stuff that some of my instructors were by the book, right, you gotta learn it this way. This is how it's done. We're basing it on our good ol rat trade. Right, and some of the books that we usually use for massage therapy school, but at the same time, there were also some of my instructors over the years that introduces new techniques, but also kind of made us critically think, right, that some of these techniques are possibly might be based on old evidence and certain articles that was brought up during your school, there weren't many of them, but I was sort of glad that it was brought up to, you know, to make us think, right, we're learning a certain modality based on a book This is how it's done, right? We're learning how to apply it on on our partner or possibly student clinic. And I definitely met some instructors, whether it was in the clinic setting or in a classroom setting that, you know, kind of gave us plant adapted, you know, you're learning these modalities, but at the same time, you know, let's go over this article, for instance, or let's, let's also question what's going on here? So I would say there was a bit of a mixed message, but in a good way, if that makes sense. Yeah, it creates, creates thinking it creates that, that, that that seed in our in our brain to just be like, okay, like, whatever I learned in school. Especially when, when a technique or notion is based on a 1220 year old book, right? I'm like, Okay, let's, let's, you know, let's see, what do we think about that? Right. And then now that I'm an arm t, you know, reaching out to you through social media, and hearing your name, I heard your name and what you're about even in school, I'm certain instructors, I was like, okay, like as a mature student, coming into our RMT school, right. Being in kinesiology beforehand, I was all about that. I was like, I knew that the books were gonna say something. And the current evidence, or what is really out there in the public is completely could be completely different. Right. Right. Yeah. So I felt sorry. Go ahead. No. So sorry, to cut you off there. But I felt like, you know, this first year has been a it's been a rough road, right. It's been a rough road. And I think a lot of our MPs get in realise that, but you know, what? I'm all for it. Right? learning, learning through the experience and learning from others through continuing education.

11:55  
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there. Christian. That's it. You made some really great points there. I mean, and it's, obviously it's nice to hear that, you know, I was I was mentioned, hopefully in a positive way, in the schools. I've been at this for a while trying to, you know, educate and change things and stuff. So it's, it's interesting to hear and I know a bunch of instructors at your, at the college you went to we won't name we won't call it the college because we don't want to do it sounds like it's good. Even though it sounds like it's good press, we'll kind of keep that, you know, you're not you're not saying anything bad are throwing anyone under the bus, but just we'll, we'll keep it. We'll keep that one off the record. But yeah, you're there, the place you went does have a very good, very good reputation. And some instructors there, I know, do do the best they can. But the thing, the reason the thing, I was really kind of curious about it, and that lot to kind of this, this little discussion here was was about the mixed messaging, because I do know from talking to lots of students over the years, that they'll get a couple instructors that will get them critically thinking they'll introduce kind of some of these buzzwords we hear now, like pain science, and bio psychosocial and evidence based practice and person centred care and all these these terms, and they sometimes get introduced. But lots of times, they just get said, and then the students don't really get a chance to really explore what that means or how to apply that clinic critically, or clinically to it to apply that information. And what I hear often from people is the mixed messages can be frustrating, it can be confusing, but sounds like in your case, it was actually those mixed messages actually helped to inspire you guys to think or to help you anyway to think

13:30  
differently. Right. That way? Yeah. No, I think it's good to be accepted, especially in our field. But no, there was definitely, you know, not not many times, but I thought it was enough for me, at least from my experience. And I you know, I had a cohort where we asked a lot of questions. I was very glad. And I think that really brought up a lot of discussions with, you know, certain certain classes and moving forward. Some of us still kind of talk about certain stuff and what we're doing outside of outside of school in our r&d. So yeah, that that was my experience at that school.

14:12  
Yeah, no, that sounds that sounds that sounds really great. That's really positive. And, you know, I know NBC I think we have nine or 10 schools now and it would be nice. I would love it if like everybody's experienced in school right now was kind of that was what yours was like, and so many other people I've met from from your programme over the years, because it seems like that's such a small snippet of people and then you hear people with these other programmes where it's completely it's like, it's outdated. It's very like, you know, pathway anatomical, very structural, very modality focused. And so it sounds like you guys are getting more of a, you know, the best kind of one of the best available education's that you can which is great, which is what we want that's what the public deserves. And that's what you guys deserve. Hell expensive school. Television. Yeah. So what what what about the like, you know, what was it like with some of the other students in your class? I know you said your image. You're a student you've already had you already had a Bachelors of Science degree. What did did you find? Other than Maximus? The mixed messaging was was confusing or frustrating for others? Or did everybody kind of accept it as like, Oh, this is just the way it is. And

15:17  
ah, based on just looking back now, right? I found that there was a couple of people in the cohort that was probably, you know, coming maybe non from a non science based degree. Not that it truly matters, but I think critical thinkers are just critical thinkers. But I found that the people that may have been struggling academically sort of speak, they were solely focused on learning the material, learning how to do things and passing. Right. And, I mean, I'd be lying if I said, I didn't see it that way to in one aspect. But there were times where like, okay, like, the programme is in the database. I mean, it's, it took me two and a half years to do the programme. And looking back at it now, there was a lot of stuff that we learned, right. But yeah, I found that there was a couple of people that that was really focused on just scouting and more power to them. But I, you know, at the same time, there was a few mature students that would always question everything that we were learning in school. And I thought it was kind of a good blend, right? Yeah, it was a good blend, and whether or not what they wanted to do was just pass the programme and then practice, or whether or not they actually wanted to meet certain people, whether it was the teachers, the clients and the student clinic, or their core colleagues, and literally bounce ideas, right. And that's what I found, there was a few people in my cohort, at the college that I went to that was really into research. And there was one one guy and he was like, Christian, look at this article. But what we're learning, right, and I was like, Oh, that's so cool. So I thought that was really neat. Like, just getting to know people in the cohort, where everyone's minus and what their focus was, but I thought, ya know, it was it was a good breeding ground, per se, as far as like, learning about massage therapy and other stuff, right? In science, nice theology and the overall field of rehab.

17:35  
That's great. So you got you. You mentioned you guys learn pain science, and okay, that's my, that's where my main area of interest is, is understanding pain. And, you know, as much as you can understand pain, it's such a, such a, such a strange thing. And the more we learn, the more we don't know. But you guys, so you guys did get a good dose of kind of pain science in your programme. A.

17:56  
It was it was more of an introduction, I wouldn't say it was like we really, truly delved in it. Right. It was just certain classes where we discussed it, and stuff like that. But as far as, oh, we're going over an article today about this type of topic of a pain, find very little of that, to be honest with you. But it was really more of a introducing what it is and stuff like that. Okay, at least at least from what I remember. Yeah, I thought was, was good enough. I thought it was good enough, in retrospect, because but at the end of the day, now that I'm an RMT now, and it's your one, I think we also have to be accountable to find, you know, courses, and other continuing your head that, that we need to know whether it's paid science or whatever it is. That interest. That's right.

18:50  
Yeah. No, that's such a great point, too, because the, you know, this school is their job in the regulatory regulatory colleges is there to basically give us entry level practice, right? So teach us basically how to not be terrible, is kind of like, like, how do you how do you go into public and not make people worse, and, and, you know, provide the best level of care that you know, but it's such a great point, you made the two that we do need to continue to continually learn like I've been practising for over 16 years, like I started, I went to massage school started 2003. So it's been a long time ago that I went to school. And, you know, I don't know if when I was in school we ever I, maybe we were just so long, I forget, but I don't ever remember being given, like a lifelong learning plan. It was more kind of like you're gonna learn everything you need to know in school, and you're just gonna go and do it. And then you can take courses because you have to that was kind of the way I remember feeling. And it wasn't until after I was practising for a lot of years, I am starting to like, notice there was gaps in my knowledge or things that I learned in school didn't seem to make sense anymore. It wasn't until then that I started to start to ask questions. So I love to hear It makes me so happy to hear that your experience is you guys were, you know, given tools and ideas to kind of critically think and to be been like, Yeah, this is the start of your journey, you know, as a professional, and you're gonna keep on learning. And I think that's, that's that's such a powerful lesson. And I would love it if every single school or every single RMT I met that went to school had that same experience, because I think would make a huge difference to what our profession, how we feel ourselves as a profession, as well as how the public feels about us. And we know the public loves us. But we know I think there's a lot of gaps in what we we haven't realised our full potential, I think is what I'm trying to say.

20:39  
Yeah, no, I agree with you on that. Yeah, there was actually one thing I wanted to add regarding, you know, discussing the school that I went to, and what the experience was like. I also tutored throughout the programme, being a student. And what I can say is, still a good chunk of the programme is about, like, I can see it in the students that I was tutoring back. A year or two years ago, it was all about passing, really, most of the students was clearly focused on passing, right. And I get it, it's, it can be it can be a heavy, heavy material for two years, right. But I have to, you know, I have to agree with you. You know, if I do choose to come back some sort of a TA clinic supervisor, I would love to be that instructor that I had at the college where I was to, to plant the seed and get them thinking, you know, like, we learned the stuff in the books. We learned in classes, but there was, it's so much more than that. That's like you said, you know, I met an RMT that's been practising for 20 years lately, and this person said, what we learned in school is to just be safe. And it's truly, truly NT to level practice. That's what it is. And, and I think the schools do a pretty, pretty decent job. But that but you know what, as it's an Archie, we've been practising for a good year now. It's, there's so much more to cover, Eric.

22:09  
It's really hard to do it

22:10  
in an exciting way, I would say in an exciting way. Yeah.

22:14  
Yeah. And that's such a great thing to hear, too. Because yeah, there's so much more. I mean, because in school, we learn yeah, like I said, like, just entry level practice, don't cause harm. But sometimes I feel this is just this is just my own my own feelings on this, is that because the programme is so short, right, we like and my bias would say like, it should be like a university level programme, it should be like four years, where you can, you can give a more rounded education, because sometimes, like you said, some people are there just to pass the board exams are only like focusing, they got the blinders on, so to speak, just focusing on what they need to learn to pass the board exams. And, and I understand that too, because I went when I went to school, there's a lot of us are like that, I was probably like that, too. You know, I so long ago, it's, you know, a bit blurry. But, you know, you want to focus on passing the board exams, however it would be. So it would be so great. If you had a little more time where you could try to put all this information together before you're kind of released to the public. Because what I felt and other colleagues I've talked to over the years, is you feel like you go out and you're supposed to be safe. But because you don't know what you don't know, you end up saying and doing a lot of stupid shit, which probably, I should probably definitely probably made people feel worse, or I said stupid things that made them feel broken or weak or maybe taking or like disempowering them, because, you know, I was giving them some structural narrative. And I think that, that is where the where the I think some of the gaps lie, is that students I think, need to leave the programme knowing that you only know so much, but be very mindful of what you say and do because you may have an impact on people that might be negative, might be positive, but let's go towards the negative bias here, where you might do something that might make the person feel worse, or you might do something that makes them feel worse physically, or maybe like psycho socially, mentally, emotionally, because you said something that was taken the wrong way. That's it. And that's, I think, where some of the information gaps are, that I would love to see anyone listening schools, I would love to see them explore that right just to, I mean, to make the programme a little more in depth would be would be ideal. I know it's their private schools. So it's the it's a business. But I would love to see that too. I would love for the schools at least to recognise and maybe the stakeholders to recognise that our programme is pretty good. But when you have a little bit of information without the right context, and you release people out to the public, it can protect there is potential problems there. If the student is not aware of the potential harm that they could cause

25:01  
Yeah, no, I I absolutely agree with that. I absolutely agree with that, I think looking back at the score I want now. Absolutely, I think you hit it right on. It's, it's, it's being it's being smart with the language that we use with the patients. Right. And there was a few teachers that that really highlighted that at the end of the programme that, you know, it's going back up to the terms of soft skill, but truly, we both you and I think that it's a hard skill. But ya know, it's, it matters, it truly matters. And, you know, what, even in my first year as an r&d Right now, there was a few instances when I was treating in a clinical setting that I was like, Okay, do I What do I say? Do I say less? Do I say more? And sometimes there are patients and clients to like, look for certain words, whether it's words for comfort, or or, you know, I've had instances where people wanted more of an orthopaedic patho, anatomical explanation to their pain. And I was like, how do I go about this? Right? So I try to be as general as possible, right. But I'm a true believer that whatever we say, it's gonna have a good impact to the person or it could have a bad impact to that person's pain and well being. So I personally think that that will come with experience and also some, some guidance with with people that can teach that right, whether it's in the school setting or continuing education. That's really, that's one of the things that there was, I would say, I've learned in the past year as an orangey. How do I convey the message that I want to give? Right, depending on how that person is going to perceive it? So

27:01  
yeah, yeah, that's so that's so well said Christian. And that's such a that's such an important thing. For people, anyone who's listening, or anyone that will ever talk to you, or me or anybody about this stuff is, is that what we say? And the and some of the things that we say, but I'm just what we do, and how we interact with people, is probably more powerful than we do with our hands, per se, in terms of treatment, because it's your you're tweeting, you're interacting with a human. And if people don't realise, if people don't realise the power of the the narratives and stories we tell them, you know, I think that's, that's a huge opportunity. Missed in certain cases, if it's, if it's for positive, or it's a huge opportunity, I guess, wasted and the other way to if if it becomes a negative thing, because when we're looking at dealing with practice, and this is why, you know, I like to say it's called a practice for a reason, not a clinical perfect to call it a clinical practice, because you're always learning and that's what you said to right? You said that, you know, you people say things you're like, What do I What do I say? Like I like they what's the person want? And how do I frame this in a way? So it's not? So I'm not making them feel worse, but how am I doing it? So I'm not dismissing them, I want to validate their concerns, but I also don't want to give them this explanation, which I don't think is helpful. And that's the balancing act. And that's the thing that's so hard to learn and something that, you know, all of us in practice. You know, it's, you know, what's right, and what's wrong. I really like what you and I like what you said is it really depends on the person, right? That person that's there, what is it that they're looking for, right? If someone's looking for a very specific pathological explanation, and you try and talk more about lifestyle factors, other things that are going on in their life, and you can't find you can't find a definitive reason for their biomechanical type pain, you know, and then you maybe you try and give him a different explanation, and maybe they just feel dismissed. And maybe they're like, Oh, this guy's tells him telling me it's all in my head. And that's not what you're saying. But that's, that might be how they perceive it. Right? And so I really liked what you said there. You said, how the person perceives what what you're saying is really important, so it's good for you to be sceptical, too. I love that as a new therapist, you're already sceptical took me a long time to be sceptical, so I'm always happy. Oh, you're gonna practice for a year? Already sceptical. Oh, that took me almost a decade probably before I asked hard questions.

29:26  
May I add something on

29:27  
this same? You can say whatever you want my friend. No,

29:31  
go ahead. Yeah. So I do work in to multidisciplinary clinic and I love it. And one of the things I'm also very curious about whenever I'm working with my patients and clients alike, is what their circle of tears like and what type of messages the other clinicians are giving them right. Whether it's a physiotherapist, whether it's a kinesiologist whether it's a counsellor or a chiropractor? I tried to kind of reach that level. Okay, what are these other people are telling you? And how that might be affecting their perception of their pain, if I can say that. I know that sounds like a different topic, but that's one of the things that I realised that okay, like, you know what? This, you know, your physios is telling you that this is it? What do you how do you see that? What do you think about that? Right? Sometimes I those are my follow up questions, and I base it on that, and I find that every session we get to learn something new, hopefully at least wood together, right. And I kind of just open up another window of opportunity for the patients to learn something about what they're feeling, perhaps. Right. And, ya know, it's, like you said, it's a very grey area, and it's absolutely not black and white. But you know, I think when anything, it's, it's a work in progress, right. I think that's another thing too, that I like to also highlight is, you know, patient education, really, and learning with a learning with them and, and really goes back to informed consent and seeing where they let they stand on on certain, certain decisions with their own care, right. And giving them the power that, that they've always had really, to begin with. And sometimes they they don't realise that right. Some of the patients that have had this past year is you know, they often blame their their pain with some sort of tissue damage, ageing factors, etc, etc. But as soon as we introduced the patient education side of things, you know, more and more people are kind of understanding that it's so much more than what's affected, if there is really anything going on in, in a joint muscle, tendon, etc, etc. Right. Right.

32:15  
So that's so when you I love that aspect of patient education. I mean, that's, to me is super important. And I think a good point to make though is that there's, you know, on so if you go on social media, you read, like, there's a lot of people that think, you know, if you're talking about like pain education, or just patient education, they think you're giving them these, like very specific, like pain, neuroscience explanations, and I always say that when we're talking about patient education, we're not talking about like, pain splaining to people we're talking about, you know, educate them about what's going on in them, based on on on what they tell us and questions we ask and, and what we what information we can gather. But when you said that, when you when you give the people these, you know, through this informed consent through these discussions, and you're giving them education, do you find that it helps them to? Did you feel it has like an impact that helps them to function better? To get back to activities and things that are important to them?

33:12  
Um, in some cases, yes. And not all cases, right. Sometimes some of my patients just give me a blank stare, like, what is this person talking about? And and that's one of the things that I'm like, okay, maybe I could have I should have said that better and moving forward. Okay, what what can I do in that regard, but at the same time, I've, I've had patients really realised the whole biopsychosocial kind of outlook on their pain, right? You know, I bring up certain activities that they do in their living that the fact that or, you know, perhaps I might be the only person that they're seeing, and they think that I'm the one that does the healing or fixing something in their body until they kind of, you know, get them into that. Thinking that, you know, what, maybe it's best if you can see a physiotherapist, or what are your thoughts on starting active rehab, but I really think that you would benefit from this, right? Just like little steps that really, really are big steps, right? When when I can get some body moving, whether it's through my scope as a massage therapist, having an in kin background and experience, but if I can get them seeing a physiotherapist and the physiotherapist is very focused on on bio psychosocial aspect as well and they get the move thing or a kinesiologist that I personally feel like I've accomplished something good for that patient and some of them have returned to me and said, you know, Christian I'm, I'm really glad you opened that. That thought in my head that you know what, I'm happy I started doing this, this and that right So, yeah, that's at least what I've experienced in the past year. And we'll see how it goes on moving forward.

35:07  
Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's, that's brilliant. Yeah, actually, there's something else I wanted to talk to you about, too, is that you know, you've been practising for a year, what is it like in the with the other clinicians that you interact with? Because you have you have a base of knowledge and you're interested in kind of kind of some, like current evidence based understandings? Do you find that the people you work with are at the same as you are they they know more you find they're, they're, they're more as anatomically focused? Where do you what is your experience there?

35:42  
Who cool. I think it's a mixed bag, to be honest with you. I feel like I'm clinician, whether it's a colleague in the massage therapy field, I feel like everyone's different. And, you know, some may take may take it on a more orthopaedic level. But generally speaking, I feel that most of the clinicians that I've worked with, are they know that it's more than what's going on? It's, it's the bigger picture. Right, especially with chronic pain patients or population from what I've experienced in the past year. Right. Yeah. You know, having patients in the in that population, being a new massage therapist, you know, the term impostor syndrome is hitting me hard like a truck, but I just have to keep a straight face and know that it's part it's part of the you know, it's part of it. It's part of the process. Right. Yeah. So, absolutely. Hopefully that answer that question.

36:43  
No, no, that's great. That's great. That's great. Great, great question, or a great comment there. Christian? The Yeah, and the imposter syndrome is huge. I mean, it happens to all of us, right? Like, yeah, and even, you know, myself and others have been practising for a long time, you kind of go to work sometimes. And you feel like you don't know anything, right? Someone will, someone will come in your, your into your clinic one day, and you feel like Oh, my God, like, I know nothing. Like I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm a fraud note, like an even as someone self, who, you know, I make my living doing Con Ed stuff now, too. Sometimes I feel like, you know, people are paying me to to learn or people are listening to this podcast, you know, eventually, you know, you start to feel like that imposter thing just is always there. I think that's probably healthy. I think if you're too cocky, and you think you know, it all, you know, it comes across people, people pick up on that, and it's a turn off for most people. So, you know, if you're humble and you're, you're aware of your knowledge, and where your gaps are, and the areas, you know, lots of in the areas you don't think as long as you're aware of that, as a clinician, you're you're fine. Right? Even though it does hit you like a truck, and sometimes you're like, hey, at least I know what I know. And I know what I don't know. That's okay. Because you can refer out or you can recognise that this is something that is not. I'm not comfortable or confident, I guess in this, so that's okay.

38:02  
Yeah. And to add up on that, I said that during certain treatments, that, you know, there would be a question that a patient would ask me, that's super specific. And I've learned to be comfortable with saying, I did not know, but we will figure it out together. And, you know, most of my patients have really appreciated that. I think, being honest, I got one of your patients just, you know, build a certain level of rapport with them. And I think that's important too. To be honest, as a, as a clinician, as a massage therapist, when, especially me, we're one year in, right? I, when I did, you know, certain people turn, patients asked me certain questions, and I wouldn't have an answer right on the spot. And I'm, you know, what, I'm not giving you both answers. There's no way I'm doing that to you. Right to anyone, right. So, I've had certain instances where I said, I truly don't know, and I will, I will do my work and look stuff up and we can revisit this discussion and, and if you find something, and if you're keen on, on, you know, looking it up together, then we can learn together. But, ya know, very, very humbling experience. Yeah.

39:18  
Yeah, it's pretty humbling when you get working with the public to and you see all these different, everybody that comes in and everyone's so unique, but it's really important, I feel and what you said there too, is to say, I don't know when you don't know just say I don't know. And my experiences are, you know, and other talking to other people too, is that if you say you don't know, people, patients will respect that you know, it rather than just making something up just for the sake of trying to sound smart. You know, it's it's, you want it you want to be the hero. I think we all want to be the hero. But it's, you know, we also have to be humble and the term I always like, and I can't take credit for it, but wherever I got it from was we have to be comfortable sitting in uncertainty and that's that's a really important thing to do. grasp that idea.

40:02  
Right? Right. I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah.

40:06  
So one of things too, is, you know, like, now you have been practising for a year, I was just curious, you know, based on your, your entry level to practice and what you are now, what? What are some, what are some gaps that you feel that could be better, like knowledge gaps that you think could be better? filled, I guess, in the education, so we talked about, okay, ideal world, like, we want to have like a four year university degree, that's probably not going to happen. But in the current programme, the current two year programme, what are the things would you would you think could be, would be great to have those added into your programme, or into the programme.

40:43  
Um, as far as adding stuff into the programme, I would say, bringing in different guest speakers would be would be great. In my opinion, maybe in the second half of the programme, right? I know that the first half can be heavy on the academic side, and just learning everything. But I think by term, five, or six, so at the school where I went, there was a sixth term. And we had a lot of review courses, what, which was great, but I found that, like, term five or six would be a good, good time to start bringing in introducing some people out there that possibly teach continuing ed like you, you know, and, and bringing in guest speakers that work in different types of clinics and, and stuff like that. So also, I would say that, maybe not adding certain courses, but just looking at a certain course and seeing if it truly, truly fits the equation. If it's, it should truly be the part of the programme per se. There was a few courses that I took at the college that I went that I was like, Okay, it's part of the curriculum. But in hindsight, I don't know if it should have been mandatory to be part of the programme. Right? I could have taken it outside if I wanted to. But I found that that's, that was my experience. And also, possibly the way the courses are presented, I found that, let's say let's discuss the therapeutic exercise, for instance, right? So the clinical or, sorry, the school that I want, it was in term two, which I thought it was great. But you know, what there's, I can also see, they're actually being taught in term one. So when I was a student, we started student clinic in term two, and I found that, you know, what, if we could have done their acts in term one, it would have been a lot better, in a sense, at least from my experience, right? Because I found looking back at it now, there was a few people that that I, myself included that I was like, Okay, we're in student clinic, we have to give one Hydro One stretch, one strengthening exercises, one called care. But if we hadn't learned that piece, yet, it doesn't really make sense to get us adding that in the clinical setting, if that makes sense. Does that maybe some sort of a revision, and I'm only using therapy as an example, right? That's where I find things can possibly revise in the, in the programme. So little stuff like that, and, and the college where I went the, you know, they asked for feedback every other term, and even the teachers asked, you know, when when, after course ends, they they asked, they were really good at the college where I went, so I, I hope to have more guest speakers, like you do and other people that teach continuing ed courses to really get people thinking, right? Yeah, instead of also, now that I'm in aren t I see it at the BCR T page on Facebook, people are just rushing to take that specific course, which like kind of goes back to that idea that I just need my credit to continue passing or continue working as RMT instead of like, actively seeking specific courses that you know, a clinician truly wants to do or truly wants to delve into right so that's at least my two cents on that. Yeah,

44:26  
no, I love that. That's That's great. I mean, well I think there you said I love Yeah, so what kind of went first thing you said Yeah, being a guest speaker I would love I mean I do that all the time. I love going into the I love going into the schools or usually it's over zoom now but I used to do the iceberg or this do like live ones in Victoria like and and then I've done him a lots of mouths all across the country, like talk to students using your the last couple terms and as a guest speaker and it's usually I just do it as a I usually introduce a little bit of scepticism, we have some conversations about Good stuff. Sometimes the instructors will have a few things that they want me to, to cover in more detail, but something it's in my kind of my knowledge I'm comfortable with. I would love to do that. And so anyway, listening, invite me to school is free of charge, don't worry, I like to do it. It's fun. But I think that's a great idea, though, because it is really, I there's so many RMTS out there that have a lot to offer that and I really liked that you said that, that it would be good to have people kind of speaking in the schools because what you're gonna get, and this is, okay, this is my own bias here is that when you're I don't you don't have an agenda of trying to have anything to the schools other than just to give people information that might be different from what they've learned at school. And that's usually how I, how I preface it, and I'm like, Hey, if you want to be you want to talk to me more, you want to learn more than just here's my contact information, you can reach out to me, but there's other people have lots to offer. And I think when you get somebody that's not in the school system, but comes from outside, they think they have a lot to say that might you know, get that brain thinking like you say, get them to be a little more sceptical or critically think about something. That's that's really important. I was like to that you said about revising things, because we know that like rewriting the entire curriculum is not an easy process. But there is a couple of courses I can imagine. The one I always think of that was just a waste of time was hydrotherapy. Like, why did we spend an entire semester in that course? Like that made no sense to me at all? Why that was even a thing? Do they still use it? You guys still still do a whole term of hydro is that correct?

46:34  
Yeah, no, during my time at the college where I went, it was turned one watt, like I think it was, I don't know how many weeks long, but it was. It was it was a lot, a lot of a lot of classes on hydro. Yeah. And yeah, no, I Yeah, that's probably something that, you know, the schools can look at, and D whether or not they want to spend that much time teaching hydro, which is, ya know,

46:59  
doesn't make any sense to me because you're like, Okay, so first off, like when I was in school, we had to do like, we had to learn like less spa stuff like salt wraps and scrubs and things like that, then like, no one ever does. I'm like, I've done no, anyone's ever done those. I've never even thought about doing them. And then you learn all this stuff on hot and cold. And like, why you just have a course like a one like a like an afternoon you sit down, you're like, hot and cold? Do you like it? Which ones you like, that's when you use? If you don't like it, don't use that one. You know, and certainly, if there's an acute inflammation there, you know, okay, or if there's signs of different types of sensitivities, maybe you want to use cools versus hot, or, you know, if you're just looking for pain relief, like what do you like, there's a lot of research supports that it doesn't really matter what the hell you do. But if you like it, that's the one to go for. There's very, very few instances where you wouldn't use one or the other, you can cover that in an afternoon. And it's so funny to me that they they have a whole like, you know, 810 courses on it. And you think there's so much better things you could do I don't understand hydrotherapy why it's a thing in schools. But that's that's my soapbox here. But anyway, that's, that's great. One thing to I guess, very, very curious about was, you know, you, you, obviously, you have some ideas and some things you want to do. What are kind of some of the future directions you look at for your professional development? Like, it could be maybe, well, what kind of courses are you looking to take as well as what kind of what kind of practice are you looking to have? Do you have you ever thought that far ahead yet?

48:32  
I'm all I wanted to do in my first year, I would say is to get my feet wet. To see how it's like. Moving forward, definitely, I will have to make time for certain courses, certain continuing education, um, like you said, the term evidence based practice, it's, it's such a loose term right now. And a lot of people are saying that term without truly understanding what that truly means. And I'd be lying to say if that was me, like, that's absolutely me. Like, I was like, your one RMT. Practice there and then your to do moving forward. Okay, let's, let's focus on doing that. So, yeah, I mean, I'd love to take more courses and be part of a community that you have started and focus on that. And I would also like to learn some that I know therapy stuff but not delve into one specific modality if that makes sense. Because I don't really I'm not a believer that one modality is going to fix all right, so that's me, I suppose that's me speaking as a new RMG. Right. Just getting comfortable with with with touch and manual therapy, but not focusing on which modality I use if that makes sense or I tune in to one modality. So I find that that's kind of a gap that I can work on. Yeah. And that is where I want to make. i Sorry, go ahead.

50:13  
No, no. So yeah, so I just did you guys for the next half the questionnaire? I think I there's a big question. But I think that's great that you said that because this is such an important thing for people to understand is that you know, we don't we shouldn't define ourselves by our modality. We shouldn't just be like, I'm My name is Christian and I am a insert your favourite acronym here type of therapist, right? Like, no, mine's Christian, I'm an RMT. And I help people with pain or athletics or whatever cancer, whatever, whatever the the populations that you that you you want to serve. But we don't identify by a specific modality. And I love to hear you say that because, you know, there is there's only so many different ways you can push, pull and twist skin and move body parts. Like it's a finite way, there's only so many ways you can stretch and pull and move and you know it but each modality that you take comes with its own story, right about how it's supposed to work. But if we really dig the zoom out approach we look at we're like, a total just different ways of touching somebody or moving a person. So how can one be right and one be wrong, which one's right? And which one's wrong, it doesn't really matter. It's whatever you like to do. So I always say to new RMTS. And this is why I want to have you on here is to hear your perspective. And all this stuff, which has been great is you're like I don't want to identify with a specific modality, you're like, I just want you like, but it's useful to know different ways to touch people, right? So there's a, you take a course, you go, you learn some new techniques, like oh, I never thought about working on the shoulder that way, or I never thought about working on the hip that way, or whatever it might be. And that can be really, really useful. But it's the stories behind those modalities. That's the problem, not the specific application of it, and a lot of the cases. So that really makes me happy to hear that you're, you're going to learn some different ways of touching people and interacting with them, but it's not going to define you. Which is no, no, I just wanted to stop. I just wanted to stop and emphasise that air before you got on to the next thing. So yeah, the next part of the question was like your your kind of professional development in terms of the type of clinician you want to be or the type of practice you want to be in is small, big, you know, what do you have any aspirations for that.

52:24  
Um, I like where I'm at right now, I do truly enjoy your work in a multidisciplinary clinic, I find that having that circle of care in for the patients that go to the same clinic helps. But also at the same time, what I'm realising is, if I am not the best clinician that could be for that person. So to give you an example, somebody that comes in to the clinic and ask for a specific type of treatment, whether it's, let's say, lymphatic drainage, that's one of the things that I want to make sure that my professional identity, if I'm not comfortable doing it, or if I might not, if I think that I'm not the best fit for that person, then being able to refer out to two other arms for that. And I think as a new r&d, that's one of the things that I want to delve into just just learning who's around me, the community, our teas, that, that work around me and see, see what I can refer out to and just, you know, I think certain groups on Facebook upgraded that I know that you the one that you have is great for that. But I think we need more of that moving forward for new or or seasoned RMTS to be honest with you. But um, as far as how big I want my practice to be. I found that I did work a lot in my first year. And now I'm like, Okay, I want to take my time, probably work the same hours, but but I guess, look into certain things and what I can better myself as a clinician, but definitely not focusing on how many patients I'm treating and how many hours I'm doing. But maybe honing certain skills, whether it's, it's the hands on stuff, and also just the what he call that some of the courses that people like you teach, right, just get in there and see what else is out there. And I think that's important. I think with new AR G's that I've noticed, including myself is we're so focused on just tweeting, tweeting, tweeting, and we've spent so much time and so many hours studying in the past two to three years and now we're actually you know, whether we're excited to practice and we tend to forget that continuing education and and always always focusing on our own on mission envision as an orangy right. So

55:01  
Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing Christina and I really liked that you said that, you know, kind of just getting your feet wet and just kind of getting a feel for things, which is such a smart way to go. And I really, really envy that you've been able to kind of bring that into your first year of practice. You know, you said you made it, you said trim earlier you called circle of care, like talking about people that come to see you and wondering who's in their circle of care. But I think also with what you're saying, too, is that you want to see what else is out there. Because you want to have a circle of care that you can refer out to for people or you can know who, who else is out in your community and, you know, someone goes to such a clinic, or they sees such and such a person, you kind of have an expectation or an understanding of what that person is about, and maybe the kind of treatments that your client saw or the type of messages they were given. And that's a really important thing to do to expand your, your community and expand, expand the people that, you know, are out there that you know, what they're all about and and how people can be helped by not just yourself, but through through others. And that's, that's really important. And, you know, taking the time to recognise your knowledge gaps to is really is really a key. You know, I think that reflection that self reflection is really such an important skill to think I need to know, I want to learn more about this. And then that's, you know, you can go and do some professional development to try and fill that those gaps is really important. So yeah, I really, I'm really happy to to hear, hear all this question, I think you're going to be, you know, it sounds like you're gonna have a good long, healthy career, you know, you already recognise that you don't need to just keep working and plugging away by seeing as many as many people as possible, because that's a great way to burn out. guarantee that you will burn out and you will he won't last long. Well, you might last long but you probably won't be as as productive or or happy. So that's that's great to hear. Yeah. You're young, you've lots of time to pay off your student loans.

56:53  
That's right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

56:56  
It's, it's easy, though, right? When you're when you have when you get when you finish school, you spend all this time, all this money, you go out there and you're like, Okay, now I gotta pay off my debt. And I gotta build a practice. And, you know, there's a lot of other extenuating circumstances that can influence how we, how we practice. And, you know, it's really good to hear your perspective. So thanks for sharing that today.

57:18  
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. What's your experience with with new artists like me? Like, what what is it like for you? Like, whether it's in a clinic that you work at whether it's through continuing education? Do you find that there, there's something that you see, with the with the new RMTS that are actually reaching out?

57:39  
I love this question so much to you. Yeah, no, I love this question. So much. So thanks for asking that. That wasn't scripted, if anyone's listening, or you just, it was a great question. I, my this was okay, my personal experience, right. So people that tend to reach out to me or people that have found I've listened to my other podcast, or have been on my website, or they've, they've taken instructive interact with instructors that know who I am, or whatever it might be. I find personally that most new arm tees that I interact with are really quite amazing. They're sceptical, they have been introduced to certain kind of concepts and ideas that were totally foreign to my generation of RMTS. And I think it's great, I think the future I'm really happy with the future of the profession, based on people like yourself and other new arm tees, that are that are they're trying to challenge the status quo they are, they're very self reflective and their knowledge, they don't want to just sit back and accept that, you know, the Clinical Massage Therapy textbook that everyone has to use from the 90s is the only way forward, right? Like that's, that that's just, that's just not okay. And so, and I hear that all the time for people. And so I'm really, really, really inspired by what I see with new RMTS. In the courses I take, or find courses when the course of course I take to but the courses I teach, I also do find that the new RMTS now really depends on where they went to school. I do find that there's certain I can usually tell within a couple hours what school the person might have went to based on how they are in the class and the kind of questions are asking people from your programme I find are probably like near the top in terms of Oh, yeah, I heard this in school. Oh, yeah, this makes sense or opening up clarification for this. Whereas what I get from people from other schools, which I'm not gonna name them either they come in to the courses and they're like, Oh my God, I've never heard this before. Where are you talking about? Like it's extremes, right one group is getting, I can say more up to date education, one group is getting, here's the information need to pass your board exams and we're not going to tell you anything else. And you do get that but for the most part, most RMTS that I encountered new ones are really is really top notch. The problems I have found most in my my sea journey over the years has been the older more I should say older, sounds like an ageist, the more established RMT, the person that RMT has been around for a long time, that everything that is coming out, has been coming out for the last five to 10 years in terms of evidence or understanding that might be challenging what they always thought they knew. When those people are really held on to those old ideas, those are the ones I find or that are the hardest to, to deal with, whether it's online, or whether it's in courses, or whether it's in conversations. And I think this is just totally my My opinion is that when you've been around for a long time, you people will tend to often really hold on to those ideals. And they don't want to let go of them because they they become to identify themselves by whether it's a modality or an intervention or a way of thinking. Whereas I find that new RMTS, they've really had the time yet to really identify, they're still like yourself, or like, I'm not really sure, like, they don't really hold on to their ideals too strongly. Whereas I think as time goes on, people really hold on to that. And that's when it becomes harder to change. I don't want to be ageist but you can't treat treat, you can't teach an old dog new tricks is kind of one of those things that I find is can be problematic. However, that is a generalisation. I have met a tonne of massage therapists over the years that have been practising for a lot longer than me. And they're fantastic. And they'll say things like, this is the stuff you're talking about her. This is stuff we talked about 40 years ago, or 30 years ago, she's the but then we had to forget about it because we had to become more medical. And now we're coming back to this more. I don't know if I'll use the term holistic, but more whole person more full, like treat the human type thing. So it goes it goes both ways. That was a long, long answer to your question. To summarise new RMTS I find most of them are fantastic. Most of them are very sceptical. They want to learn, they don't hold on to too much to things. The more established therapists can go one of two ways. Some are very stuck in their beliefs. Some are like yeah, this makes sense. Because this is what I've been seeing and doing for 30 years. So yeah, right. It's an interesting, it's never boring.

1:02:27  
Yeah, no, it's a good. It's a good thing. Yeah.

1:02:31  
I always say that if I if I every single time I taught a course if it was exactly the same, then I'll be bored. So it's always different. So there you go.

1:02:40  
There you go. There you go. No, I I really appreciate that answer. Also nice to kind of, you know, see where what your experience is like, hearing from, you know, from from my end, so, no, I think you hit that on that. I think I agree with that, that, you know, your RMPs we, you know, in theory, we should be you know, our identities not quite moulded yet. So it now is the time to be like, Okay, let's learn, right. So, yeah, thank you for that answer.

1:03:13  
Yeah, you're welcome. It was great question. I love that. The and that's a great point, too. You said the moulding your identity because I one of the things that I heard a number of years ago, which really I've held on to is that never hold too strongly to your ideals, because your ideals can change with with science. And that's really important too, is I know, when I took a deep dive into the pain science stuff, you know, you know, those probably what 2013 14 When I first started kind of digging into that world, and trying to make sense of all that stuff. And then now, you know, even over the last seven or eight years, nine years, I guess it's getting into the the way I think and the way I understand things is very different because you're constantly sceptical of everything you learn. And if your ideals are like, I want to be evidence based, I want to know, I want to be less wrong every day. Or every time I take a course or every paper a book I read, I want to learn more knowledge. And I want to challenge myself, I want to challenge my biases and my beliefs. That is how we are going to grow. I think if we focus too much on what I know everything, and I'm this type of therapist, and I don't want to and this is my identity, and we don't want to change, that's when we become stuck. And that's when we stop growing. And so, even though you said moulding, your identity, I would say your identity, you know, unsolicited advice here. Any new RMTS listen to yourself included is is is just yeah, you're gonna form an identity of how you think and how you like to practice and that's totally fine, but just keep that very malleable. So it's always changing based on new information because otherwise we can become stuck and then we're not serving the public's interests to our to our best.

1:04:54  
I totally agree and, and to add on a similar note, I think one to one Other times I first listened to your podcast, I forget which one it was. But the fact that people like you in this profession are elevating the bar and raising the bar, in my opinion, because I think that even for myself, I don't I still like to learn stuff from different clinicians. So from like, physiotherapist that work in the same clinic where I work, but it's always so nice to learn from RMPs themselves. It's still like, separate profession, different scope of practice. You know, I totally agree that we can learn a lot from physios and other clinicians, but at the same time to build that foundation and that community within, I think just makes more sense. To be completely honest with you. Right? Yeah, I think I think, yeah, no, I think it's great. The stuff that you're doing, and yeah, no, I really thank you for that. I know, I haven't met you in person. But, but having this this opportunity to me, it was it was great. So thank you experience my you have to explain my experience. And, and I hope, you know, I'm truly excited about hearing other new RMTS possibly speak to you, and hopefully they can share their their their experiences and your hear what they're up to and their gaps and their you know, their overall experience is new r&d. So I would love to hear from from other straight. Yeah.

1:06:37  
Oh, great. Well, I appreciate that. Christian, I appreciate you taking the time to be here. It's, and yeah, I'm looking forward to, to hearing more. I mean, I've got a bunch. I've done a few already a few. And I got a bunch more lined up of new students. And I'm going to try I'm trying to get more trying to get some from across Canada. So it's not just not just here, but just try and get some, some knowledge, or some stories from them to hear their experiences. And yeah, I think I think it's I think it's important to see how how people experience their education and where they see things are going well, or they see things where there's there's gaps, and where and where people want to go. Because like I was, like you said to and what I've said all the time is I really want RMTS to, to realise our potential to get to a point where we are not looking outward to all these other professions recognised under there, but we can start building up from within. And I think a lot of that comes from, you know, like building community, but also building other CE instructors. But also, you know, getting good instructors in the massage schools. And if we don't have these conversations, and if we don't hear people's experiences, then we're not going to know what we're doing well, and even more importantly, we're not going to do know what we're doing. Not well.

1:07:57  
Right, right. Yeah. So I

1:07:58  
think I think it's important to have these conversations. So appreciate you being here today. Christian. That was that was really great. I really enjoyed our conversation and all the best to you. And if you're ever here on the island, you know, send me a message and I'd love to get together and meet you in person.

1:08:16  
We'll do good, sir. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Sounds great.

1:08:20  
Thank you. Have a good day.

1:08:22  
Thank you. You too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai