Healthcare Entrepreneurship: The RMT Experience with Carlos Grouchy RMT

This is another episode on the new RMT experience with a deeper dive into healthcare entrepreneurship. I have a really interesting and enlightening chat with Carlos Grouchy, a Registered Massage Therapist who's working hard to make change in the wellness industry. Carlos has a unique, fun and evidence-based approach to massage therapy and wellness and he isn't afraid to question the status quo.

In our discussion, we address some of the unhelpful topics in the massage therapy field, as well as the challenges Carlos faced when thinking about opening his own clinic. Carlos shares his journey, his initial struggle with a lack of business knowledge, and the obstacles of building a brand in the healthcare space. He also illuminates how he's using social media to engage and educate the public about pain science and evidence based content.

We wrap up by looking at the trend of entrepreneurs transitioning their personal brands into brand empires and what that means for the healthcare industry. Carlos gives his take on how healthcare professionals can be educated on a comprehensive approach to wellness. From understanding their own physical capabilities, simplifying orthopaedic testing, to incorporating mental health education into massage therapy school.

Transcript

Eric: 0:12

Hello and welcome to the Purves vs Podcast. My name is Eric Purves. I am an RMT course creator, continuing education provider and advocate for evidence-based massage therapy. Today's episode features an entertaining discussion with Carlos Grouchy, who is a new RMT that practices in my hometown of Victoria, bc. Today we discuss his journey into the skepticism of what he was being taught in massage therapy school and how he is using his new knowledge and pain science and evidence-based content to better educate the public through social media and through his wellness coaching company. Our conversation evolves into entrepreneurship and the rewards and challenges of being an entrepreneur in the healthcare business space.

Eric: 0:54

As a heads up, please know this episode does include some colorful and explicit language, so listen if you wish. So thank you for being here and I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you for attending another episode of Purvis vs Today. I'm excited to have Carlos Groussi, but apparently he goes by. He prefers grouchy and I think that sounds way cooler as well. So thanks for being here today, carlos, just kind of tell us a little bit about you, thanks for having me.

Eric: 1:24

Yeah, introduce yourself, tell the audience who you are and what you're all about.

Carlos: 1:27

Okay. So, carlos, here I'm a massage therapist, registered massage therapist, practicing in Victoria right now. I have lived here for about 10 years. In terms of like sports background, I played hockey competitively that was kind of my thing growing up, but now I'm just I pretty much enjoy absolutely anything and everything with moving the body. I got into triathlon through COVID and now I'm really into more, a bit more, a bit more mountain biking, always been kind of into weight training and I've been doing massage for four years now. I graded in spring 2019. So that's kind of where I'm at, and then I also do some personal training stuff like that and that's a bit of a background I had with working at a training company for professional collegiate and like teen hockey players.

Eric: 2:19

Nice, did I connect with you like, I think, did I meet you when you were a student Because you went to WCCM team Victoria, yeah you yeah, you and Jamie Johnson, I think.

Carlos: 2:32

Yeah, yeah, is that the guy's name, jamie? Yeah, you guys came in for a little kind of demo with movement modifiers, stuff like that, and I think that was the first time I had exposure to you.

Eric: 2:45

Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought because I know we've connected a few times online and stuff over then and you took one of my courses one time and I remember you you see me, that was like a new grad or something like fresh. You had a lot of good questions and you had a lot of like kind of thoughts and skepticism, which is something that I always like. This guy's got something. I like it, I like, I like the way.

Carlos: 3:11

Yeah yeah, so we'll get it. Yeah, it was. It was interesting. Yeah, go ahead.

Carlos: 3:16

Yeah, we'll get into that, yeah but it's interesting because I'd say like school was a bit of the kind of halfway through some stuff I was dealing with personally with pain, which I'm I'm sure we'll get into in a bit it was sort of like I don't think everything here is kind of being spoken about in the right way and so, like the skepticism started pretty early and I'm just a skeptical person overall, I could say so I was kind of just like smelled a bit stinky and then when there were a couple teachers that said certain things and you guys came in, I was like okay, like this, this makes more sense and things shouldn't be overly complicated, like, if they are, it's usually people are just bullshit and I think I love that you saw that, because it is so true that we oftentimes as students, we're just kind of just take the BS that were fed to us because we have to, because we don't know any different and we and we have to pass these exams.

Eric: 4:14

But yeah, I spent a lot of years. Actually, I probably went three or four years in a row. I went into WCCMT and I don't think there's any surprise why I haven't been invited back in a long time, because I think it became a little bit probably some conflict between what some, what some of the students were saying and the faculty was saying, and I think there's probably admin and some of the people around the school probably were like no, we don't want him here anymore. Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, there's been a few times where I've been invited into schools and I've had great feedback and lots of information from the staff member that's invited me, as well as the. The students have reached out like this was great, but then the, the, the higher ups are like no, it's too controversial.

Carlos: 5:02

Yeah the truth is controversial. Yeah, the truth will not set you free anymore.

Eric: 5:12

No, no, the truth will keep you away, doesn't keep you away from us. So, yeah, anyway, yeah, so let's, let's, yeah, I'm sure we'll talk more about that, but I know you've got one reason I wanted to reach out to you and have you on here. Well, there's many reasons, but one of them I know you started your new symmetry wellness coaching business and you've got some fantastic videos and content on your Instagram page, which I really applaud you for doing that. I think.

Carlos: 5:37

I think it's fantastic but just tell us a little bit about it.

Eric: 5:41

Tell us about your, your new business and what it's all about okay, so what I kind of started.

Carlos: 5:47

There is a bit of like. Well, initially, like I wanted to bring some of the stuff that I would say like people like you have exposed me to that I find quite helpful. And one of the things that I've found quite interesting in that side of the education is like don't, don't pain-splain people, like don't give them all the neuroscience and all that, because it's like they don't fucking care, it's overly complicated, they're not going to be able to digest it, and I mean this is, I'd say, probably most important overall. It's super boring to most people like me and you nerd out about it because that's the shit we like, but for most normal people they're like dude, I don't even, like you said, central sensitization, like I'm numb, I don't know what, I'm not listening to anything else that's coming out of your mouth. And so when I was thinking about making content and kind of like who am I gonna make content for and how am I gonna like create it in a way that's engaging, because there are a lot of people making content along these lines, in terms of like let's educate people, let's educate practitioners, I kind of wanted to go a bit more of the like let's educate the general public, because the amount of people you can kind of contact in terms of like the practitioner area and they are so set and they're sort of biases already and like their self-fulfilling prophecies of like well, I'm the greatest and I'm gonna fix you, I was like you know what? Like they're not that receptive and there's a couple pages I wish I could remember them. I think it's like Steve Kerr coaching. That's probably wrong, but they're more like fitness influencers and what they do is they make kind of comedic videos on like weight training and strength training and they sort of myth bust around that and I was like man, this content's great, like I actually enjoy this, and they slip in the science, which is, I'd say, the best part, so they're giving people a lot of literal guidance, that's, you know, science-backed.

Carlos: 7:43

I was like, well, how can I spin this to fit kind of the stuff that I want to communicate? And so the symmetry wellness coaching page is meant to be a bit of an amalgamation of like the manual therapy, pain science stuff, a bit of like the strength conditioning, rehabilitation stuff, and then at some point they'll probably be a bit of nutrition, because I do love the nutrition space and it's another space. That's very like holy shit, there are polar opposites of what's good and what's not, and what's killing you and what's not killing you, and everything should be alkaline, and it's just like oh my god, this is incredible. Like people are just getting spoon fed a bunch of stuff that you know isn't the best, and so I'm hoping to build a bit of a platform where I can touch on each domain and really provide stuff that's educational but also people won't be bored to death watching. But it's been an interesting little bit because, like, I have a personal Instagram account I actually didn't make it, a previous partner made it for me and there's one photo of me.

Carlos: 8:48

Like I don't do social media, I hate social media. So it has been an interesting sort of hey let's, let's try this out yeah.

Carlos: 8:59

I think it's, I think I love you what you've done there.

Eric: 9:01

I found I enjoy videos. They're kind of like an Aaron Kubal-esque kind of, you know, bringing in the science with a bit of humor, and they're very creative, but what I, what I find with them, with what you've, the content you put out there, though, is that it's there's not our RMTs doing that kind of work. It's usually physios or chiro's or nutrition or fitness people. You don't really see like RMTs doing that kind of video or that kind of content, because the stuff that you're doing is you're just, you're just like bold and you're like this is a big fucking waste of time.

Eric: 9:34

I think you said in in one about stretching or something you said so much yeah yeah, and I think, I think it's great. I mean it's not me for everybody, but it's, it's, it's super entertaining.

Carlos: 9:46

Yeah, that's yeah, great to hear. Yeah, great to hear. No, it's definitely something that I totally agree there with it. It is more physios or strength conditioning coaches that are kind of putting that stuff out, and but it's it is the stuff that I enjoy the most. So I was like why don't I just do this? And you know, the title of RMT is I mean, so many people have these titles and it's kind of like, well, what actually like relevant experience do you bring? Or like what experience have you developed through the years? And so I'm kind of just like, yeah, the title might be a bit different to what is more commonplace, but like I don't know who gives a shit and I have a background in all these other domains and so why not?

Eric: 10:25

yeah that's great, do you? What kind of engagement are you getting with your stuff? It's pretty new to you, isn't it actually?

Carlos: 10:33

been. It is pretty new, it is really new. It's been pretty good, especially in the beginning. I mean, a lot of that was just because I think initially people who know me personally were like what the hell is this guy doing? Like like people from my hometown or people who've known me for a couple years like wait, what are you doing? This is crazy, dude. This is so funny. Like I can't believe you're doing this.

Carlos: 10:56

So that got a lot of engagement because people were like sharing and liking and all that stuff. Now not as much, but it's still pretty decent. Like I think every reel gets around like 500 views, which I mean, hey, I need to be better with like my insights and really like I guess you could say pushing that to push more engagement and page growth. But that's something that I think now that I've found the flow of like I've established the habit, because my goal was like three reels a week or three posts a week, now that that's feeling a bit more easy and manageable, I'm gonna start diving into getting a bit more engagement and tracking those metrics. I'll probably reach out for some help, I think, because it is I don't know, it's a domain I know nothing about.

Eric: 11:37

Yeah, I moved to, I didn't have an Instagram account, I don't think until COVID times I was like, no, I'm Facebook, but I'm as a generation of like you know where everybody my age was on Facebook and that's all, and no one used Instagram, but I sort of I'm currently on Facebook at all anymore and I just use Instagram.

Eric: 11:54

Well, I shouldn't say just, but I use it primarily and I find it's way better for engagement and for getting your stuff out there, like I get more sales and more shares and likes on Instagram than I do on other platforms have you thought about the TikTok? Or no. Yeah but no. Yeah, I thought about it, but no, it's just one more thing to do.

Carlos: 12:19

I love people like oh, if you want to get.

Eric: 12:21

You want to get out there, get your name out there, get your face out there. You gotta go to TikTok. I'm like, yeah, but it's just, there's only so many hours in the day and unless I hired a social yeah, sure, which I then I'll be forced to put out tons of content, and you know it's like it's sometimes. It's a grind sometimes when you're trying to think okay what am I gonna put I?

Eric: 12:42

should put something out there, you know. And then you, just some of you, put stuff out there. It's great, and sometimes you, you put something out there you just didn't even think about and it gets like, you know, 2000 views. And another time you, you put all this time and energy into it yeah well, you know, I don't understand like there's science and the right.

Carlos: 12:58

Yeah, that is is really difficult.

Carlos: 13:03

The one thing that has. I've had a couple calls with people that I guess you could say are who would be good, people that give me guidance in the social media, like growth space, and a lot of them do just say that TikTok is quite valuable for the algorithm. Like it's more predictable in terms of like that video did well for X, y and Z. Now let's like recreate that content where Instagram's algorithm is a bit different. In that way it's not, as I guess you could say, good in simple terms, so it can be a bit more indecisive on. Like the feedback.

Carlos: 13:41

It's like well, why did that do well? Like that kind of actually doesn't seem to make sense. Like, in my opinion, seems like a poor quality video where the content was kind of just like hey, I needed to get something out, so I put that together really quick, whereas apparently TikTok gives you a lot more of the specifics. Like that did well. This is why, and then what a lot of people have told me is use TikTok is kind of your like test subject field and then you use the good stuff on Instagram but, like you said, another thing to do, another thing to manage, which sounds like an absolute headache right now.

Eric: 14:17

Yeah, some people love it. Some people have the energy for it Not me, not me, yeah. One of the. Actually, I think my second most popular video I ever had on Instagram was one was one where I was like telling everybody I was like suffering from shingles, which was the most random video, at like 900 views of it or something.

Carlos: 14:37

It's crazy. People love watching others suffer.

Eric: 14:42

I was just an agony and I was like I don't know, let's just tell people, let's just talk about it. And then you know the amount of messages and stuff I got was like, oh, this is funny, so people want to see me suffer. Okay, that's good to know.

Carlos: 14:53

Wait, did people reach out to like just learn more about it? Or they just kind of hey, I hope you're doing well. Like what was that engagement? Like that's a bit that is odd, though, actually.

Eric: 15:03

What I find often with the stuff I put out there is you will get some people comment, but I will if it's a popular thing like that. I get so many DMs from people that are like you know they'll ask questions, like clinical questions about like oh well, if someone comes into CV, you know what can you do, and I'm like don't touch them because they don't even want like to stay away from me. You know, I had a few of those, yeah yeah, I was like I'm contagious. I'm like well, no, because it's like the chicken box virus is like living in my spinal nerves, like a lot of people just didn't know what it was and tried a lot of questions about that kind of stuff.

Eric: 15:36

So, anyway, it's just, it's interesting, it's funny how those things all work. Yeah, yeah, I'd like you to tell us a little bit about just some of the content you have on there. Like, a lot of it is myth busting, right, and I've done a series of episodes where people have talked about myth busting and I think it's always personally. I feel it's an important thing for us to call out the BS, because you know people deserve to have higher value care that's not based on falsehoods.

Eric: 16:06

So tell us a little bit about some of the some of the things you put out there and why you've chosen certain topics.

Carlos: 16:13

Okay. So I think one of the like, one of the overarching themes, is people have limited time and a lot of people want to better their health and wellness and so, with that space being so controversial and so much misinformation also out there, it's like how can people get the best results for the best bang for their buck? And so when I'm thinking about creating a video, I'm kind of like okay, what's a common theme that people are like oh, like the stretching week, of the stretching theme of this week, everything sort of been built around like hey, you're doing a 30 minute stretching warmup to like prevent injury, like that's your intention, which is great, but you're probably just wasting 30 minutes. And if you're short on time and you're like trying to get a workout in, like just get sweaty for five and then start your workout and just build up to that. So I'd say most of my content is built around the like how can we get you the results the most efficiently? And, yeah, stop spending time in areas that aren't paying dividends and won't pay dividends.

Carlos: 17:20

That's kind of like what I like to think about when I'm going to try and get a message or cross, and aside from that, it's, I'd say, a lot of like what clients tell me or ask questions about and what their assumptions are, or what they're told previously from a different healthcare provider. That stuff's always comedic because you're just kind of like shit. Like a doctor told you that like now I got to compete with this guy who's got like 12 years of school and well, that's tough. I mean, hey, like I'm taking facts from people who have like 30 years of education and research, so I'm just the middleman. Like don't freak out at me.

Eric: 18:00

Don't shoot the messenger.

Carlos: 18:03

Yeah, yeah, don't shoot the messenger, but I'd say yeah, though, like another overarching theme would be I really want people to feel better, and a lot of people just feel better when they move, and that regarding mental health also. So I think that's one of the aspects from like my previous, like training, strength conditioning stuff that I always kind of try and bring in. It's like what's the minimum therapeutic dose that you can do to like feel better or lose body fat in a healthy manner, like we don't I also. I'm not really trying to niche down to like, hey, you want to have a six pack. It's more like, hey, why don't we get you moving? Cause you'll feel good and if you give a shit about that, I'm sure at some point your body compositional change, but like who don't even think about that? Like who really cares? Right now? We're just trying to get you feeling better and being more capable in your life.

Eric: 19:04

Yeah, yeah, I think it's great, and so are you, the people that you're, that you're going at, or clientele or people you're trying to educate. You said it's mostly the like the public rather than other RMT. Is that right?

Carlos: 19:20

Yeah, definitely more the public than other RMTs.

Carlos: 19:24

I just kind of think that if we, if I, can kind of help educate the mass, the masses, if the platform grows, they'll be able to maybe identify more bullshit than trying to change other people's minds, as the practitioners who, yeah, are more, are more caught in their self biases of oh, I do this and I help people, or you know their own beliefs and opinions, where I think the public is a bit well, they are a bit more malleable, if I'm honest, that's what I kind of get from them, and if something speaks to them, they kind of lock onto that.

Carlos: 20:02

And I think that's where I'm trying to just be like hey, this is simple and it's not complicated and it also makes sense. Like you could show this to your five year old, maybe bleep the fuck. But your five year old would probably be like oh, like that does make sense, mommy, and that'd be kind of the end of that. And it's like, if your five year old can understand this versus, hey, I'm aligning all these things and all these sub luxations and stuff like that, which would just be kind of like what the hell, then I think they'll kind of really catch on.

Eric: 20:33

I agree with you. I think it's a great idea to educate the public because and there was some there's some great research out there that looks at. You know, if the public was more educated about things like pain and disability and whatnot, then the general idea is that it would reduce healthcare usage.

Carlos: 20:55

Oh, no doubt, yeah, okay.

Eric: 20:56

Yeah, which goes along with with your line of thinking too. Right, like if if someone goes in to see somebody because they've got back pain and the public knows like yeah.

Carlos: 21:04

I might got back pain.

Eric: 21:05

but you know, whatever, I'm not worried that I've herniated a disc, I'm not worried that, like it's, I'm out of alignment or whatever. I just need someone to. You know, give me some exercises or give me some massage or something to help it feel better. Then they're not going to go in there and show up and they're going to be able to call out when someone's like you need to see me three times a week for the next six years and it's going to cross and you can prepay now and it's going to cost you $300,000.

Carlos: 21:30

Whatever you know like, that line is always crazy. Red flag number one yeah.

Eric: 21:39

So I think with the, if the public has a better understanding, then, yeah, they probably like that doesn't make sense. That's not what I've heard before, but you are right, it is hard to change therapist minds because so much of us are stuck in our own biases and we have our own. Everybody's got them. But yeah, I've been at the education stuff for a lot of years now and I still I'm always amazed when how many people in every course I teach that they there's some of the things I talk about they've never heard of before.

Carlos: 22:12

And that always blows my mind what do you find in your courses, like, what do you find in your courses are the percentage of people, if there are any that are when they kind of they finish or they're done. You kind of do a bit of a check in, you're like, ah, they're like, they're just, they're sticking with their ways and that's that.

Eric: 22:35

It depends, I would say, over time. So as, like all of us, hopefully we get better and less shitty at the things we do the more we do it. I would say early in my days teaching, I would say, you know, it was probably, I would say probably, I made a difference, for 25% of people positive and 75% of people I probably just pushed away further because I was not very good at communicating my, my content. I would say now, I mean still trying to get better. The amount of people that don't change, I would, or let me say this, I would say it's very rare that somebody admits that they won't change, that they, that they're happy in their way.

Carlos: 23:18

That's a good point.

Eric: 23:19

But I would say that probably you're probably about 25% of people would, I would imagine, would go away and just not take anything from the course because they're just like nope, it's too challenging. But I've really changed my messaging on in the last few years to try and make it less threatening and more all encompassing. Rather than me like, rather than just spending so much time busting myths and calling shit out, it's more about, like, looking at the similarities, what we all do, and trying to bring that all together and you're like a common narrative and common understanding. Because if I go and tell somebody like Prenus sacred doesn't do what you think it does, it's garbage, they're, and they that's how they've been practicing for 20 years there's no way they're going to listen, they're, they're, they're going to shut down everything I say.

Eric: 24:02

But if I say you do that approach and obviously it's working for people because you have a full practice for 20 years, what are some of the things that can explain why that works, based on things we've talked about? And then they'll kind of bring in some of the things about, like all the contextual effects and the, the, the, the, feel good, touch in a meaningful manner and you know the other, like the therapeutic kind of environment that they're in and they can kind of bring that all together. And so I'm like but your touch isn't doing what you think it's doing, but it doesn't mean it's not helping this person and so kind of flipping that script to be like, can you just change a little bit, maybe how you're communicating this? If, when it, if the person wants to know, don't make up a story. I found that has a lot.

Eric: 24:51

Yeah, it's way way better engagement and I don't. I no longer get threatens, threatening messages after courses.

Carlos: 25:02

Well, I'll just say never, rarely yeah yeah, actually, I guess initially it was like their backs are up against the wall and they, they just felt, yeah, they just felt attacked.

Eric: 25:13

Always, always right all the time. Yeah, it was like that. And you know, I've had a few occasions in the last couple years when I ventured the further east. I ventured, I've had more pushback, but I think it's just. I think the, the, the messaging and just kind of the general information that's out there in NBC is kind of spreading to Alberta, to Saskatchewan, Manitoba, you know, Ontario, it's kind of things that information is getting out there. But you know, if it's hard to fault anybody, I mean I'd like to blame people for, not for being lazy and for not paying attention. But to be honest, if you live in a small town and you know on the Atlantic coast and you don't have social media and you're like one of only two therapists in your little town and you don't, you don't go on the internet very much other than did me to email your friends or family, you know, are you going to be that engaged and trying to keep up with all the latest stuff?

Eric: 26:15

Probably not, Because it probably doesn't matter to you, and so sometimes I have to get myself out of my like ego of thinking that, like every massage, therapist needs to know all this stuff, otherwise they're going to destroy the world. That's not true.

Carlos: 26:33

Yeah.

Eric: 26:34

Yeah, yeah, so anyway. Yeah, I can't remember the initial question was, but anyway, there's the answer after.

Carlos: 26:44

That was perfect. That was perfect, that's perfect so yeah.

Eric: 26:48

so one thing I was going to I want to ask you because, like you know, a lot of the content you put out there is kind of challenging some of the status quo what's it like with your colleagues? Like, are most of your RMT colleagues like, are you guys all pretty much on the same page with you know the pain, science, evidence based stuff?

Carlos: 27:05

I would say no, not all of them. The one thing that I always kind of find interesting and I'm sure you can speak to this, almost similar to that last question of how many people kind of take what you say and then completely use it all encompassing is the aspect of how people kind of still pick and choose what they want to identify with in terms of, I'd say, like the pain science and what they're kind of like. I'm still going to stick with my ways. When I just for when people are kind of speaking like that in terms of oh okay, maybe they're like, yeah, I'm not getting rid of adhesions, but they still kind of maybe give the craniosacral spiel of like hey, that's what I'm doing here. I always find that interesting, so I'm like I'm just going to let them be and I hope, as things progress, they'll keep climbing that ladder.

Carlos: 28:05

I mean the other side of this. I'm very interested in business. I have a big passion for business and sort of like entrepreneurial sort of journey that I want to continue pursuing. And the other side of it is, to me it's almost it's quite makes me quite curious, because I'm like I feel like some people they don't necessarily even believe what they're saying, but they are speaking to their audience and they're like product positioning is like, hey, I, this is who I am, this is who I am, this is what I do, and that's just the way they almost market. And I don't know if that's worse or what, because in one sense I'm like I speak.

Carlos: 28:54

Like when I used to work at a bigger clinic I was like man, like I speak to these people every day, like they seem quite intelligent, like they must kind of know what's going on. They must have some skepticism, because in the back office we talk about other things in life where it's like, oh okay, like you know, you're not a complete kook, like you know, you kind of got some stuff in your head here. But then the way they still communicate with clients about certain things and what they're doing, it's like way down, that that rabbit hole, and I'm just like that doesn't add up to me. So I find those people the toughest, because, yeah, there's some people that are just crazy and I'm like, all right, you're crazy, that's cool, like I respect that, you do you.

Carlos: 29:39

But the people who are, I think, more knowledgeable than they lead on or what they communicate to clients, that's where I just have a tough time almost even approaching them because I don't really know what to say, because I don't want to be like hey, I think you're smarter than that. And why are you playing dumb? Because I feel like that could be taken quite negatively, of course, which is fair, but the other side of that, like I was saying in the beginning, was you know how much of this is that business aspect, that marketing aspect, and hey, I'm playing a role, or this is my persona in this space, and people seek out what they feel comfortable with or where they identify, and so, like I mean we could put that in science terms as, like the therapeutic alliance and like, hey, I like people who speak my language, so I'm going to see this person. I really wish they would just kind of come around a bit more with what you were saying and how they do explain things. I think that would be a lot more valuable. It's like, hey, yeah, this is the context that I kind of like provide therapy under, but this is just more so because you understand the language and we can speak together in a way that makes sense to you and make sense to me. But hey, I'm not realigning your chakras. Like I'm saying I'm not saying chakras, like I'm saying every day, it's more just like, yeah, this is making you feel good and yada, yada, yada.

Carlos: 31:20

So it's always a tough subject to really breach with with other people because, yeah, it's, it's always interesting on how they take it and sometimes it's funny, I'm sure, as you've experienced the oh, whoa wait really. And then you're kind of like, oh, you were just waiting for someone to maybe give you a bit of a green light to be skeptical. And then they're like, oh wait, this isn't like I kind of always wonder, but I didn't know what to do and I didn't know what to say. And it's like, oh shit, you're on board like, fucking, read this, read this, like watch a couple of these YouTube videos. And then, like two weeks, they're like like I'm so glad you gave me that.

Carlos: 32:00

Because those people they kind of I think they reach a point of disinterest and sort of they just they don't, they don't have any passion anymore because they don't believe in what they're doing. And I mean to relate this again to sort of the business side of things, like sales. A massive part of sales is speaking with conviction, and if these people are trying to build a therapeutic alliance and help someone and they're speaking with this like, uh, you know it's. I think we're making you feel good, like the people on the other end of that. On the other side of that room, another chair is going to be like this person doesn't even believe a word. They're fucking saying like I'm not going to get any help here and it's not their fault, just don't know. So yeah, it's always interesting.

Eric: 32:46

It's so easy to market certainty, though, and that's why there's such a. It's so attractive to have those, those, those stories where you're you're fixing or you're releasing or you're balancing or whatever it is. You might, you might work on your, because it brings people back, because it gives them something tangible to hang on. Yeah, and it's true, like the look at the evidence. The evidence suggests that you know, when we're dealing with pain, there is no certainty. It's so uncertain.

Eric: 33:13

And so often times, if you want to be honest and ethical and you speak to a client and you say, yeah, you know what, we, we can help you feel better. Maybe we can't really figure out why you hurt, but we, I believe that you hurt. Let's try some touch and some movement and let's try and do a few things here, just see if we can make you feel better. But I've ruled out any red flags, so I'm pretty sure you know you're just in pain and that's like oh, I mean I just heard we don't really know why. Like, oh, okay, like it can be really uncertain.

Eric: 33:40

That can make people feel, I think, if delivered in a way where, if you aren't convinced, like you said, if you're not convinced in what you believe and you don't communicate that well to the person, then they're not going to buy in. And, and that's the key, I think that the difficult thing with being like, say, you know, air quotes, evidence based is that we can't give solid answers because we don't have them. But we have to let people know that it's okay and certain and that's and that's not really as sexy and as exciting as being like come in for these number of visits, I'm going to realign your, your fashion system, and then you're going to be good to go. People can buy, they can grab on to that.

Carlos: 34:23

Yeah, One of the things that I've actually now started doing to place a little more conviction in kind of the therapeutic process is saying something along the lines of like okay, this is what we're going to try, this works for people. We're going to see how it makes you feel. And then I place a bit of that like positive placebo, Like I think it's going to make you feel better. So let's try this with some conviction, Like whatever that you know therapy or home care is, and it's like we're going to do this, I think it's going to help. And then they come back and they're either like, oh, that helped, that's awesome, that's what I needed to get fixed. And I'm like, who knows, but it's helping. So who gives a fuck? So like let's just keep doing that and we'll just scale that in whatever area that is and whatever it's helping you. So maybe it's like graded exposure with resistance. It's like, oh, that's helping me a lot. It's like, great, Well, that's helping you. So who cares about anything else? Like let's just keep hammering that until it doesn't work. And then the other side of that is when they come back and they're like yeah, that wasn't it, Like that didn't help me at all or it made me feel worse. I'm like oh normal, Some people don't like that. I think this is what might help you. Let's try this, because then they start to catch on with the like it's not a one fix for everyone approach and they usually people realize they can find another area in their life where that makes a lot of sense and they can kind of find common ground there and they're like oh yeah, like that works for Kathy and James in like this area or this domain of their life. But it didn't work for me and I had to try other things and it's like, yeah, same thing, Like we just got to find what works for you, but something will start making you feel a bit better. And when we find that, that's when we just keep hammering that tree, because until it stops making stops giving you that progression, and then I find like I can speak with more conviction and they can have more of a trust in their relationship with me. Because initially it was sort of like oh yeah, we'll try all these things and you know there is really no answer because we don't know and hopefully one of these things sticks and it's more just like no, I'll see you again in two weeks it worked, didn't work great. Like reassess and like, let's just keep going.

Carlos: 36:50

And then they also don't feel. I think people then also they don't feel as much and they're like, hey, you're trying to sell me, because if someone has, like I would say, a bit of skepticism or education in general, they appreciate the like oh, I don't really know, but we're going to figure it out and we'll keep trying. If they're like, oh, that's, that's like a real person, Cool, let's keep going. I trust this person now. Versus the like okay, it's not working, it's making me feel worse. It's like, no, you just haven't done it enough. Like keep doing it. It's like, well, I don't want to keep doing it. It's like, no, no, no, you just got to keep doing it. And then they're just like what the fuck's that about?

Eric: 37:30

So yeah, I mean what you said there too goes in. It's consistent with a large body of evidence, too right, which suggests that you know treatments that are performed in a positive context and to perform better when we're dealing with, like MSK pain. So you know we're not lying to people. But if you're like, yeah, like that's where your clinical experience is so important and you say, well, I've people with, I've seen people like this before with like yourself, and you know we've tried these things and they tend to work pretty well. So let's just go, let's, let's try this a few times and and see, see how this works and see how this progresses. And, yeah, and if people, if people believe you and if they, if they like you and they do the things that you, you, you guys, work on together, then they're probably going to feel better more often than not.

Carlos: 38:16

Yeah, totally, no, totally.

Eric: 38:20

Well, you've one thing you talked about you mentioned earlier was this kind of goes with all this stuff we're talking about. Was you talked about your you're really interested in like this kind of entrepreneurial ambitions. You're really keen on that. Tell me a little bit more about about that, because I know last or last time we spoke on zoom I don't know when that was six months a year ago you were looking about buying a clinic and I was like that's the stupidest thing you could do.

Carlos: 38:46

Yeah.

Carlos: 38:48

So tell me, tell me what, tell me more about you're going to get me to do stuff, though I love all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, I mean a different, a different area, I guess, of conversation. But I I've just started to really enjoy business and I like the multifaceted aspect of it and how it's. Yeah, there's so much involved in in like, hey, marketing, sales, like building a team, and I don't know something about that really speaks to me. And so I have like a business mentor. He's actually like one of my really good friends and he's kind of always pushed me to be like hey man I think I mean not me, because I don't know, everyone's got a lot of self doubt but he's like hey, like you're good in certain areas, like I think you should kind of put more time into here. And when I was younger, he kind of was, you know under the wing and like hey, read this, do this, like you're progressing. And I'd say maybe about a year ago, two years ago, kind of almost a bit before we spoke about the clinic thing I was like I really like this idea of building a business and and not so much going down the like I want to be an employee, like I really want that journey of I'm going to learn a bunch and so many different areas, and that's what's like really stimulating to me. I really I enjoy hard work, but I also like learning a lot. I need to be sort of stimulated in that way, and that entrepreneurial kind of thing of building a business is something that really speaks to me, as long as I can provide value to a bunch of people and help them in a certain way. And one of one of the mindsets that I'm really in right now is it's just like you just got to reiterate, reiterate and learn more and more and more.

Carlos: 40:42

And there's so many people in that entrepreneurial space who are, like now, massively successful, but they started way out in left field and you'd be like, how the hell did you get from there to here? And it's like, will they just one persistence? You like you just persistence and you just continue chipping away but you're not really going to know. And so there's this like massive lack of, I would say, security in a sense. But you really just have to trust the process, and that's kind of something that I'm just on board with right now and I think it's a really good time in my life and the past year was a bit of a lot of conversing with people that I trust quite a bit and like, hey, like should I take this road because I want what it could potentially give me in terms of freedom and flexibility and enjoyment and sort of fitting my work to passions. But it's not very secure, it's terrifying and also like who the fuck am I to think I'm going to be, you know, the next whoever in air quotes? And that's not really like the goal. It's more just, I want the, I want that experience in my life.

Carlos: 42:04

And so the clinic thing was the first kind of idea because it was like, hey, this is my niche, like I should explore the idea of of being a clinic operator and then expanding and expanding and having clinics and building this like clinic as a brand. And it was interesting because I was at the at a pool in Brentwood Bay, the resort, with that mentor guy and he was like, hey, why don't you do that? And let's crunch the numbers right here. So we kind of crunch the numbers and I was crunching the numbers of things I kind of knew and had heard about the clinic that I used to work at and I was kind of like these numbers are a bit iffy, like this is. I don't know how good this really is. So then I was kind of like on his side because he runs a massive company, a CEO of a startup, and he's done quite well, and so his like humble ego was like well, what I think is there's people in this space who start as healthcare providers and then they just become business owners without any previous knowledge and they're engulfed in this world of wow, there's a bunch of stuff that I had no idea about. So they're undereducated in that domain. So it's really challenging for them to figure things out when they start out and there's a lot more to it than they know and they have to learn while they're building, but then they're so worried about just staying afloat that maybe that's. He's kind of like I think that might be the reason why it seems so challenging.

Carlos: 43:36

And that kind of did speak to me a bit and I was like, yeah, that makes sense, because if I just started building a clinic right now, I'd have no fucking idea about like you tell me what profit margin was back then, and I'd kind of be like, okay, sounds good. I should probably Google what profit margin is. And I'm like there's no way other people in the space aren't, are just like oh yeah, profit margin, like revenue, like fixed overhead versus like liquidity and stuff like that. Like they, I'm like, oh, they got to be the same as me. So I was, okay, I'm going to reach out to some clinic owners. And so you were one of them and I ended up reaching out to like probably I don't say eight to 10 in total, but everyone said the exact same thing as you.

Carlos: 44:15

Pretty much it was like there isn't as much profit as people think.

Carlos: 44:21

It's a lot more work than people think, and you're always still kind of working in the business and on it, so your hours are doubled.

Carlos: 44:31

And it was interesting because when I heard that from that many people also with like have had, like who have had a clinic for everyone that I spoke to kind of had had a clinic for at least five years I was like, okay, this can't just be down to the healthcare provider anymore. Like after five years they have acquired some business acumen, they have spoken to people who have business knowledge and like sought out resources or help from people who know that area, and they're still having these problems in a sense, like maybe it's the market and not the person anymore. And so then I did more digging and sort of more just research and was like, wow, this isn't I don't think this is the space to kind of explore this entrepreneurial thing in anymore. And that's kind of where I ended and now I'm exploring a couple other opportunities and and sort of journeys. But yeah, unfortunately that wasn't. It wasn't what I thought it was and I don't think it's what a lot of people assume.

Eric: 45:32

You're 100% right and I'm glad you decided to listen to everyone's advice.

Eric: 45:36

That it's, you know, if you create a clinic or if you want to be an owner, right, what you're basically doing is you're creating a place to work, you're creating a job and you know there is, there is clinic owners out there that make money, but usually they're large, large, large clinics and they have, like management teams and they've got, you know, a lot of other people doing it. But the majority of the clinics are of a certain size, like they're small, where it's usually a single owner operator, maybe there's two. Like me, I had a business partner and you're you're you're both working in the business as well as you're working on the business, and even if you hire, you know, office managers and some admin team and you try and you know, basically pay others to do all the stuff you don't want to do. It all eats into your profit, so you have to. You're like, okay, well, how much totally working clinically. There's you, only, there's only so much money you can work because it's not scalable. Right, and it was not scalable.

Carlos: 46:36

And that was the whole issue. It was like, well, that was the whole issue was like it really wasn't scalable, like it just it just wasn't. And sure, it was like, okay, I could go like massive enterprise, scalable, but do I really want to spend 15 years to like to get to a place where I'm no longer a part of the business, working in the business or on the business, and now I'm just an owner with a cashflow producing asset? It's like no, I do not want to spend 15 years doing that. Like I could find another area of business and get to that place in five. I mean, hey, that's obviously not guaranteed, but it's just like why would I put myself in that, that in that journey or position of, hey, you're signing up for like 15 years to maybe get to this place, where why not try three other things for five years and one of them will hit in a lot more higher likelihood. So it's just like that didn't make sense to me.

Eric: 47:36

No, that's brilliant, Carlos, and that's so true Every clinic owner I've ever talked to. They don't really make a lot of money. Like the clinic doesn't make a lot of money because, like you said, it's not scalable. So even if you aren't working in the clinic and you've got all your rooms filled, you know, seven days a week, you know the reality is is your overhead and your cost your business is ridiculously some Victoria, where we are, it's really expensive. And then you know your wages are expensive and those are just going up and up and up for, like your office and admin staff.

Eric: 48:07

But then the thing is, too is that you know the therapists have a certain standard that they're like I. You can't charge me that amount of rent because I could go somewhere else and pay less. So the market of our profession actually stops RMT clinics from making a lot of money. You would need to have a lot of physios, a lot of chiro's or a lot of other people or kinesis that are in there. Where you could, they could see more people and you could charge them a higher percentage. It just the numbers just don't work very well for most places.

Carlos: 48:38

That's just the way it is, yeah, and, and I mean this is the most like respectable way too, and I mean I can say this because I'm also an RMT. But man, rmts fucking suck to employ Like I would not, like that was the other thing. I was like man. All these RMTs are absolute headaches. Like we're all just drama. Like we want vacay, we want to give you less money as a clinic owner and then make more and work whenever we want and not work whenever we want, and then we want more hours this week and none the next week. I'm like we're all just absolute headaches to deal with. Like I don't want to deal with these people. Like no, thank you.

Eric: 49:15

Yeah, like no, I'm not a clinic owner anymore, so I guess I could say in my experience, yes, rmts were usually the ones that I mean, that's my audience but RMTs were usually the ones that were the hardest to to deal with in terms of, you know, hours, days that went to work, rental agreements way, way more difficult. But I, you know, like you said, the entrepreneurial journey, right, I had these ambitions. I'm glad I did it. I mean, I owned that clinic for 12 years and I sold my shares last year and the clinic still exists.

Eric: 49:48

But I'm not there and I'm, you know, I'm I'm way happier now doing like the entrepreneurial stuff I'm doing now with the teaching and the online stuff and all the other work and things I do podcast. It's so satisfying and what's great too, is that I only answer to me and I do have one one assistant that I pay, a part-time assistant that does some of the you know behind the scenes stuff. For me it's so much nicer that the freedom of being an entrepreneur right now, particularly with internet and technology, like you like, for you, right, with the stuff you're doing, you probably don't you don't need to be in an office necessarily all the time, right, if you're doing your coaching and all that stuff right, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely not.

Carlos: 50:34

And like that I mean it's just, that was a other thing too. It kind of made me I mean we could relate to something else in terms of, like, imagine going to medical school in the fifties and it's like, hey, I need an answer. Okay, go to the library and try and find the textbook and then try and find the chapter and then try and find the page. But like we are in this technological era, like it's the perfect time to try and build the business, and it doesn't really matter what business. Like you have every resource imaginable. Like it's incredible, it's actually just crazy.

Carlos: 51:06

Like why would you not want to give a certain amount of time to being an entrepreneur? When you have chat GPT, to literally just answer, hey, like how do I market for X product? And it's like boom. And you're like, great, now how do I spin this to more of my like target audience? And it's just like it's insane, like it's the perfect time, and especially for I mean, I'm young, I'm, I'm 26. So it's, I have no dependence. It's like what else am I going to do? I might as well.

Eric: 51:37

You're a baby 26.

Carlos: 51:40

Yeah, I'm almost 20 years older than you, so that's funny, you're still spring chicken too, like no one's old till they're like 65.

Eric: 51:51

At least I got 20 years, then I just turned 45. I know I what, what I? I rent somewhere, and so this is one of those. This is a totally non evidence based statement, but I did read somewhere that there's more millionaires now, like within the last I think within the last 10 years from online like people running online businesses, than there is in any other industry.

Eric: 52:17

I don't know if that's true, but it kind of yeah, thanks. When you look at what's out there and how much money people are making in these weird little niche markets and I know some of the online business groups I'm with like there's people I'm like what you make money on that.

Carlos: 52:31

And they're like oh yeah, I'm making like 50,000 dollars a month.

Eric: 52:34

I'm thinking, holy crap.

Carlos: 52:36

You know, yeah, and I'm like which is, which is crazy? The one thing that I've actually found quite interesting and maybe this will speak to you is right now there's so much push, there's so many like personal brands being created, so like they build the business around themselves, right, and initially, when I was starting the content, I was going to kind of do that and I was like, hey, I'll build more of a personal brand, cause I'd say you have a bit more of a personal brand too, like it's your name and you're coaching. But I'm sure at some point that will potentially change. But the thing with that is there's going to be a point where you don't want to maybe be so much in the business or be the face of the business and you want to take more time away from the business with family or friends or hey, whatever, more flexibility. And so that was the interesting thing that when I was talking with my guy, jason, he was like we could do that and that might help you in the beginning a bit faster, because you could sell yourself a bit better, versus trying to build a bit of a brand. But he's like at some point you could hire an operator to then run the business, like if we take the coaching business, and then sure, you'd have to pay them and you could find a good operator operator and compensate them really well.

Carlos: 54:01

But like, in the grand scheme of things, let's say you're doing it by yourself and you're profiting like 50 K a month, like that's great, cool, you're profiting 50 K a month. What would you rather have Profit 50 K a month and work like 40 hours a week, or profit 30 K a month and work eight hours a week? And I was like shit, but 30 K is more than enough money than I do. You know, I'll still help my mom and dad and like I'll live lavishly because I'm not a materialistic guy. But you're telling me I'd work eight hours a week, like I'm going to Thailand and then Bali, like that's, that's what's up.

Carlos: 54:39

And so I'm curious to kind of see what'll happen in like 10 years in the entrepreneurial space and the business space with like are people still going to be building personal brands or at some point where they'll be more of a shift again back to building these like brand empires so people can then again transition? Oh, and I mean like it's not the hardest thing to just like switch your trajectory and be like okay, you know the brand name is still you, but now you're not the one as doing much fulfillment, but it's. It's going to be interesting to me to see, like if that does start to switch back, because the social media marketing, the technological age of business, is quite new and so in 10, 20 years, once these people have done so well, they're going to want to cash out in a sense. So what are they going to do and how are they going to cash out?

Eric: 55:35

The personal brand is. What I've seen is yeah, you do have.

Eric: 55:40

The face of the brand is usually someone's name, like for myself, you know my, I'm a personal brand, for sure, but the and I think I think you're I would agree with what your guy, your business mentor said is that yeah, like it's good to set you up for success because people know who you are right and you're associated with this, this, this brand or this image and then but some of the people I've seen that have gone really successful they keep that, keep that. I guess still there is still their, their name, but they're not doing hardly any of the work. They're kind of the face of the business, but the people doing all the fulfillment, all the sales, everything is all like a team around it.

Carlos: 56:21

And.

Eric: 56:21

I know they've done that, have been very, very successful doing that because they're selling their brand, but they're not. They're like, they're like, they're doing the eight hour, 10 hour week kind of thing.

Carlos: 56:31

Some weeks more, yeah, and that's definitely the, that's definitely the play. I think once people get to that position where like wow, I'm doing so much, and then they kind of realize I can outsource a lot of this work, then it's kind of, then it does become irrelevant. It's like hey, just find good people to do the fulfillment and you can do whatever you want. But that does come with, I think, for a lot of people in the beginning quite intimidating to be like hey, like I'm no longer going to do the sales calls, like I'm the best at sales calls, like that's just my ego, like I got to do the sales calls. No one can sell like me because it's my product. And it's like, yeah, but you have someone two months and you also hire someone who has done sales for a 10, 20 year career. They're probably going to be just better at you, better than you, so like that's fine.

Eric: 57:24

That's the biggest problem that I see in here when I talk to other you know whether it's course creators or you know RMTs that are personal brands or other people in other industries that are personal brands is that there's that point of like, and I was I mean, I'm guilty of this too and it's like when do I start paying for things to buy time so I can build the business? Right, it's a fine line Like well, I don't have enough money right now, I can't pay for this person to do this thing for me over here, but if I pay for this person to do this thing over for me over here, that's going to give me more time to focus on this aspect of the business which I'm good at, which is maybe your marketing or your content creation. So it's like when do you make those decisions? And that's the hardest part for people is like when do I pull the trigger and when do I? When do I take that? I have the answer.

Carlos: 58:12

What's the answer? So the answer is read the book called buy back your time. It literally answers that perfectly. Have you read it? Do you know it?

Eric: 58:26

I've heard of it, I haven't read it. I got a behind me here and people can't say I got a whole shelf full of business books. I've read most of them. That one's not on it, but I'd happy to read it.

Carlos: 58:35

I'm going to write it down so that it's great, because one of the things that actually even gives you is a formula for how much you should spend on outsourcing certain tasks, and so what it is. It's like you take your revenue. I can't remember the exact equation, but you take your revenue, you divide it by something I don't know, multiply it by nominal whatever, and it's like, based off your revenue, if you can find someone to do X work for, you have $12 on up work. You should pay that because your time is more valuable on skills that other people can't fulfill yet, and you will get more growth because you can spend more time in the areas that do require you to spend the time, even if that's just ideating and thinking like, okay, what is the next step in this business?

Carlos: 59:33

What is my vision? Where am I going? Because, sure, in the beginning we do need to be frugal, but if you can start outsourcing stuff, just for you to sit an hour a day and be like, okay, this is good, this is good, this is good, what's next? You have to have that time. If you don't, you won't think of what's next and then you just won't even grow. So, as you know, it's just the investment that comes with building a business.

Eric: 1:00:04

Yeah, and that's a huge thing, and the advice I was given from a business colleague was you should outsource whenever you're questioning if you should outsource. If you're asking yourself should I outsource this, the answer is yes.

Carlos: 1:00:19

That's good. Actually, that is good For one reason or another. It's like I hate doing this shit. Should I outsource this? It's like, yeah, you hate doing this shit, Just outsource it yeah.

Eric: 1:00:29

I mean, and it's funny because, as time goes on, like I you know in the last, now that I'm you know, I'm not working in a clinic anymore and 99% of my work stuff I do is, you know, rmt related, but it's more teaching, or you know, coaching and these kinds of things, and what I've found is that it's funny how you start to you start to outsource more and more and more things. You don't realize how much you're actually like spending an overhead, basically an overhead, paying things out, but you're buying your time right, whereas before it was not uncommon for me to do like a 50, 60 hour work week, like I was working ridiculous hours right, that kids would go to bed and then it'd be up all night, and then I'd get up early in the morning.

Eric: 1:01:11

I'd be working all day. And then you're like this is unhealthy, like, and I felt terrible and I was burnt out and mental health crises and all kinds of terrible stuff. And then it wasn't until I kind of like stopped, like reevaluated things, outsource certain things, focused on what, and got rid of stuff that wasn't providing any. I'm not saying I can say value. I'm not talking monetary value, I'm talking about, like, personal value as well. And then you start to realize like, oh okay, like you can you know this is way healthier way of doing things. But grinding and doing all this stuff, anyone's listening is don't do it for too long. You have to do it for a little while, I think, but not for too long. The outcome is not good. Yeah, totally Not good.

Carlos: 1:01:55

Yeah, not good Bumps or fire, hard core bumps or fire.

Eric: 1:02:00

No, well, this has been great. We've totally like we totally went off like on on entrepreneurial stuff. This episode will be more about business than anything, but that's okay. I thought it was. I really enjoyed this, I guess you know. Just one more question, cause we are kind of hitting the kind of threshold of time for as long as these probably should be what are you? What are your feelings? Cause you're relatively new and I've been doing a bunch of interviews with relatively new therapists. I mean, you've been out for four years but we'll put you in a new category less than five years.

Eric: 1:02:34

Totally. What are your thoughts with the RMT's educational system and, you know, what kind of things do you think needs to change to make it more relevant to the real world of clinical practice?

Carlos: 1:02:50

Yeah, based on your experience, only Like a couple, yeah, a couple of things. I just think they spend way too much time in certain areas. Of course. I mean I guess that's probably everyone's response, but I think they should really spend more time educating the therapists and having them do things so they have more, I would say, like health and wellness experience. They can speak to people in a way that they can communicate kind of the journey a bit better, cause they've kind of been through whatever that journey like entails for them. It's kind of like hey, would you rather go to someone who specializes in weight loss, who's like obese but they have some educational knowledge? Or like the person who was obese kind of went through that experience, like got a little healthier and has the educational experience Like, cause they can then empathize with you a bit better. They know the roadblocks that you're gonna hit and that you're gonna experience, and like they can just be like hey, this is what worked for me. Like it is only what worked for me, but like don't worry, it's part of the journey, you will get there.

Carlos: 1:04:16

So I wish the schooling was a bit more all-encompassing on like hey, this is what makes your body feel good, like this is what you should do to move it. Like, why do we not have a strength and conditioning class where people actually work out? And it's not like, hey, you need to be an Olympic weightlifter or you need to do an Ironman in a year? Just like, three days a week, we're all gonna work out and we're gonna like set some goals and you're gonna learn what like feeling uncomfortable in the weight room is if it's your first time going there. So then when your client comes in, they're like, hey, I wanna feel a bit more physically capable as I'm getting older. It's like, oh, well, then you could get a gym membership and I can help you with some programming there. And it's like, oh, but I don't wanna go to the gym. Like people are gonna look at me. It's like, oh, no, I know how you feel. Like I was super nervous when I went, and that just applies to all the other domains of like hey, someone who's experienced chronic pain and stuff like that. It's just. I think we should be educating people more on the experiences of the clients that they're gonna see, so they can then help them a bit better in that way and meet them where they are and understand that they're not just gonna like flip a switch and start doing their home care tomorrow with the six exercises you provided. Like that's just rarely, if ever, going to happen.

Carlos: 1:05:51

I still really think that a lot of the educational value of some of the classes that I think some people would say they should get rid of, like GenPath, like I think that's still very valuable because you can speak to clients about things that other healthcare professionals speak to them about and don't have the length of time Like that's a big one. People will come in and say like oh, I got my x-ray. This is what it said and they kind of just said you're okay. But I read it and it has all these big words. I have no idea what they mean and I Google it and it tells me bad shit and it's like yeah, well, let's talk about that. You're gonna be okay, kathy, like this stuff's normal. So I think like that's very important.

Carlos: 1:06:32

But some of the other stuff, even like I think like orthopedic testing, could just be practically dumbed down to three weeks because the validity of a lot of those tests, especially if someone's already in a sensitized kind of they're already having a sensitized experience with shoulder flexion and we're gonna get them to do the empty can test. It's like, yeah, that's gonna hurt every fucking time. Like so why are we like spending hours teaching about the positioning of where the humerus is, when it could just be like, hey, put them into the position. If they contract against it and it's aggravating, then it's probably more musculosenderness? Like sounds good.

Carlos: 1:07:14

Now, what do we do? Okay, well, we know what to do because we spent more time on the like. How do we communicate to them? How do we talk to them about pain? And then how do we actually like educate them on the therapy and like going through that journey of getting them to feel better with things that are in their control, versus come see me, come see me, come see me, because it's like the orthopedic tests usually don't matter at all, but we spend three months, even maybe six months, if I remember correctly just like learning them. It's like who cares? I don't think I've used one in like four years. It's like maybe a couple, like I don't know, checking the ACL or something like that. But other than that, it's like show me what hurts. Oh, that hurts, cool, yeah, let's get on with it. I'm not gonna just do something to make it hurt more. I'm like all right, like, oh my God, what's wrong? Why does that hurt? It's like well, cause it already does. Yeah.

Eric: 1:08:17

You're not, your experiences is not unique to you. Carlos, every arm T I talk to, they're like I never do orthopedic tests, like it's so rare, it's not a common thing. Totally Fresh in, yeah. But I also think too that you know there is value for them. When there is value, but they're not taught when to use them, not to release, it's like oh, you have a shoulder problem. Here's all these tests you can do on the shoulder and I always like to. I always make a joke in my courses. I'm like, yeah, most orthopedic tests are like the prove you're not lying test, because it hurts when I flex my shoulder right, okay, well, let's like.

Eric: 1:08:55

You said like it hurts with like why would you get them to keep doing empty can and resisted all these things when they've already shown you that it hurts, why would you keep provoking it? And if you read any of the using the shoulders totally right, any of the shoulder research, now almost all of it says none of the tests are specific. Yeah, few of them are specific and most of them are just provocative to a movement. Well then, yeah, why do we spend six months in school on them? It's crazy.

Carlos: 1:09:24

Yeah, the only thing that I would actually really love for them to add in is some sort of and I'm sure you hear this from clients all the time, because I know I do and I know other people do, but honestly some sort of mental health education where we can speak to people in a certain framework, because it is incredible how safe people start to feel and what they'll divulge in terms of things that they're going through. But I mean, as we know, the biopsychosocial model of pain, like psycho, like that's literally in the name. We should have some sort of education where we can sure we don't need to be a therapist, but just a bit more of who knows, maybe CBT or whatever, where we can just help people along that journey. And maybe we do have specific frameworks where it's like, oh, you've had a physical trauma altercation, like hey, that's not our domain, like you should maybe see a professional whatever, but it's related to fear, of avoidance, of a movement based off fear, and stuff like that.

Carlos: 1:10:37

I think we should be educated to be like, oh, a bit more into the psychology of pain and this is why you're thinking that way and feeling that way and that's normal. And what can we do about that, because a lot of people I know they're quite timid even with the motivational interviewing, because it's sort of like is that the blurred line that we should maybe be tiptoeing on? It's like that's crazy. Come on like we're telling people like you bought this and we're worried about that, like that's absurd.

Eric: 1:11:08

And that's the fear that always comes up, right Is that if we learn about psychological therapies, if we learn about psychological frameworks and then therefore, we may then start to be psychologists or try to work outside of our scope of practice, and I think that's absolutely ridiculous. That's like the argument saying that when you, if you teach kids about drugs or sex, they're gonna then go do it right, so it's best just to not talk.

Eric: 1:11:44

It's like it doesn't work that way right, like we know that the more education people have, the better decisions they make, the better their behaviors they choose. So, like, not talking about psychology doesn't mean we're gonna go be psychologists, but that's the argument that we hear, that's the feedback we get. I'm like yeah, but why would you apply that thinking to us, when all the other educational programs out there for changing or influencing behaviors say you need to educate people about these things? You talk to kids about sex. You talk to kids about drugs. You talk to kids about alcohol. You talk to kids about prejudice and racism. You talk to kids about all these things.

Carlos: 1:12:20

It doesn't mean they're all the time doing that.

Eric: 1:12:23

It's just like they're aware of it. They have a healthy understanding of what this stuff is. Yeah, it's the logic for why we don't have any type of I can say behavioral science. Education is something that I could. I'm just gonna shit on all the time. I could talk about that forever.

Carlos: 1:12:43

It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Eric: 1:12:48

If you're aware of this stuff, I don't know.

Carlos: 1:12:49

That's a disservice to the people.

Eric: 1:12:51

Yeah, it is a disservice to people because really, when you look at it, when you look at the education and what we're supposed to do is basically you're just like they're just meat and you just keep them focused on the clinical presentation. But the clinical presentation of paying their back, they're there because their back hurts. But what about if we look at the big picture of all the other things that are going on, If we understood that, like, hey, this person's got a lot of crap going on in their life right now and their back hurts? Well, we're not gonna counsel them about that, but maybe we can recognize it and say, hey, you know what? There might be an association through these things. Do you think you should go talk to somebody about it? Whatever it might be, that's good healthcare.

Carlos: 1:13:30

Yeah, totally that would be good healthcare, it's like I don't know, I could lose my.

Eric: 1:13:36

I could go off on that stuff forever. So anyway, we should probably wrap this up for us. So how can people reach you? What's the best way if you want people to get in contact with you?

Carlos: 1:13:49

I'd say honestly, probably just through the coaching page, Cermetru Wellness Coaching. There you just DM me on there. There's also like a link in the bio where you can book RMT appointments if you're in Victoria. And then there is a link to the coaching page for the online coaching stuff and that always has like a free 30 minute consultation. So you can just kind of tell me a bit about what you're looking for and we can see if you're a good fit and if not, I can definitely refer you to someone who is probably a better fit for you than I am and the goal is just to help people and get them with the best person that's for them. So I'd just say through Instagram, probably the best. Most people have Instagram now and yeah, Nice, nice.

Eric: 1:14:31

Well, thanks a lot, carlos. That was a lot of fun today. I really enjoyed that and I'd like to get you back on again in the future. We can. You know, I'm sure we could talk for hours about fun things. Yeah, I'd love to come back.

Carlos: 1:14:43

I'll keep chatting forever.

Eric: 1:14:44

Thanks, Carlos, thank you for listening. Please subscribe so you can be notified of all future episodes. Purvis Versus is now available to watch on YouTube, so if you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe and share to all your favorite social media platforms. If you'd like to connect with me, I can be reached through my website, ericperviscom, or send me a DM through either Facebook or Instagram at ericpervisrmt. If you wanna reach Carlos, he can be reached through his coaching profile on Instagram, which is at Symmetry Wellness Coaching.