The Importance of Regulation in Massage Therapy: A Conversation with Michelle Smith & Monty Churchman

In this episode we navigate the challenges and joys of working in an unregulated province with experienced massage therapists, Michelle Smith and Monty Churchman. From the ins and outs of insurance battles to the complexities of labor mobility, Michelle and Monty shed light on the lesser-known aspects of this profession and how it's shaped by the absence of regulation. They candidly share their personal experiences, including Monty's disappointment over the Olympics hurdle, adding a personal touch to the broader issues at play.

We explore the role of massage therapy associations, as we journey through their strenuous efforts to establish a regulatory college in Saskatchewan. Unpack the history and the financial implications of these associations with us. Listen in as we highlight the role of associations in the profession and emphasize the importance of quality assurance and ongoing education.

Finally, we conclude our discussion with a focus on the future. Michelle offers her valuable insights on the need for improved regulation and the mammoth potential within the massage therapy profession. Hear from us about the current state of entry-to-practice education and the daunting task of establishing a standardized curriculum among various schools. We also highlight the importance of board exams and evidence-based education in maintaining the integrity of the profession. So don't miss out on this episode - it's one that promises to expand your understanding of the profession.

Transcript

Eric: 0:10

Hello and welcome to the Purves Versus Podcast. My name is Eric Purves. I'm an RMT course creator, continuing education provider and advocate for evidence-based massage therapy. This episode features Michelle Smith and Monty Churchman, who are massage therapists based in Saskatchewan. We begin our conversation talking about sport massage and then the focus of our discussion moves to the pros and cons of working in an unregulated province. Thank you for being here and enjoy this episode. Hello everybody, and thanks for listening to another episode of Purvis Versus. Today we've got two wonderful guests from Saskatchewan. We've got Michelle Smith, who's back for her second episode, and we welcome Monty Churchman. So thanks for you guys for being here today. Just before we get started into our conversation today, which is going to hopefully focus on massage therapy regulation and what it's going to be like for you, we're going to hear your perspective on what it's like working in an unregulated province like Saskatchewan. I want you guys just to introduce yourself, so go ahead, michelle.

Michelle: 1:10

Thanks, eric. My name is Michelle Smith, as Eric has mentioned, and I'm a registered massage therapist here in Saskatchewan, working out of Saskatoon. Yeah, I've been practicing since 2014. Also a kinesiologist and exercise physiologist by profession originally, and then I switched into the career of massage therapy after about 15 years doing my kinesiology profession.

Eric: 1:39

Wonderful, and Monty, just tell us a little bit about you.

Monty: 1:41

All right, monty Churchman, I'm from Saskatoon, saskatchewan. I started my first practice in October of 1996. So I'm still practicing. That's 27 years later, if I do the math. I've spent pretty much my entire career practicing in Saskatoon, a little bit rurally as well. But I am heavily involved in sport massage and I also belong to the Canadian Sport Massage Therapist Association, so we're a national organization that also practices the effective use of sport massage therapy for athletes, especially at the COC and IOC level. Wonderful.

Eric: 2:23

So with the CSMTA stuff do you have the full certification?

Monty: 2:30

Yeah, I do. Through the CSMTA have the full certification, so I'm considered a sport fellow.

Eric: 2:34

Nice, nice. Have you had a chance to go to like Olympic Games or Trials or Commonwealth or any of that stuff that's what I'm building for.

Monty: 2:43

actually, I was just at the Commonwealth Games last year working for Team Canada, so I got a chance to work with a variety of athletes, which was an amazing experience. Prior to that, for the last seven years, I've been part of the Para Swim Canada group, so I've been working with them since 2015.

Eric: 3:04

Lovely. It's exciting. When I first started practicing I guess 17 years ago now I was heavily involved at the CSMTA and I did the. I never did the final certification because the Olympics came to Vancouver at that time and I was doing all my certification looking forward to like I'm going to do it, I'm going to work at the Olympics, and they didn't actually take anybody like hardly anyone that was actually part of the CSMTA. They just took their favorite people or just random. It was who you knew.

Monty: 3:37

So as far as your comment there, eric, I believe that wouldn't have been the CSMTA, that was most likely the Van Ock Organizing Committee that all kind of went to hell in a handbag.

Eric: 3:49

Yes, and I should be. Yeah, thanks for clarifying. I didn't mean to throw the CSMTA under the bus there. It was the Van Ock Organizing Committee that they chose their therapists from the people that were organizing. That kind of took who they wanted. But it was unfortunate because the impression I had been made to believe and from the people I knew in the CSMTA for my three or four years involved with them, was that the organizing committees or Sport Canada or whoever would go to them to choose their therapists and that in this case it didn't happen. I live in BC. At the time, actually, my dad had a condo right in downtown Vancouver I could have stayed at. So it was like perfect for me to go and I didn't get the opportunity. So I kind of it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth and I just said, ah, you know what, that's, okay, I'll. I had young kids at the time and I was like this is a lot of work anyway, so I just left it yeah well.

Monty: 4:42

Well, further to that, this might be a good time to talk about it because this will tie into our conversation, since we're on the topic of sport.

Monty: 4:49

So the problem, one of the issues that I've had with living in an unregulated province is the fact that there's not that same labor mobility, especially in the sporting world.

Monty: 4:59

So as a CSMTA and we were called sport massage therapists back then, but recently, in the last two and a half years, we've had to change that designation because registered massage therapist was a protected title and we couldn't use sport massage therapists. So we recently had to change that to sport fellow instead of certified sport massage therapist. So that that's a whole can of worms we could get into. But this also affected it in terms of me or any other unregulated province working in another regulated province for this type of games. So I applied, but they wouldn't take me because insurance wouldn't cover me in a regulated province. Different story if I was with a specific team. If I was actually with the team Canada the alpine skiing, the team would have covered me in BC to work with them, but I couldn't go as a registered massage therapist or as a sport therapist and work in an unregulated province because of insurance issues.

Eric: 6:00

That's so crazy to me. Even though your education and your experience could be more or the same, or more, just because of being from Saskatchewan, you're denied that opportunity.

Monty: 6:15

Yep, 100% and back then. Keep in mind, in 2010, bc still had a 3300 hour requirement, which they've since dropped, so we weren't considered as peers or, I guess, as equals in the regulated provinces.

Eric: 6:28

Wow, and that's that whole hour thing too here. So, being in BC myself, it was one of those things that we were kind of told like you're the best you know, you've had more education anyway. So as you're in school it's kind of like you're kind of inundated with like how much better your education is, and so you kind of grow up and air quotes. We all kind of grow up as a therapist thinking that our education is great because that's what we're told and we're made to believe. But you know, in reality it's.

Eric: 7:01

You know, if you, just because you have more hours doesn't mean is better education, and that's the and that's a big issue is I think more education is better, like more education is better than less education. But the hour component to, particularly when a lot of it was really not evidence-based stuff, it was just filler, I know I don't think it makes you a better therapist. And then my experience teaching and and meeting therapists from across Canada doesn't matter where you're from. You can be from the territories, you'd be from BC, you can be from anywhere in between, all the way to Newfoundland, nova Scotia, and there's fantastic therapists everywhere. They have different numbers of hours. It's really comes down, I think to the individual, not the the hours of learning that you get.

Monty: 7:44

That's my experience and sorry, I should let Michelle get in here at some point but and it's the quality of the hours that you're receiving, right.

Monty: 7:54

So, like you alluded to earlier, is it filler, is it quality hours that you're getting? The? The one exception that we've had and this has been a difficult thing and I don't want to get too much into this but to take sport therapists from Quebec. They're the only province that doesn't have, I mean, they have an $1100 program, I believe, and you can build your way up, but their minimum to practice as a massive therapeutic is $400. So for us to take them on, because our basic requirement in the CSMTA is that you have $2,200 of education and be a member in good standing with your provincial association so we've had to really work and finesse how we can get the Quebec therapists to have their hours up or their quality of education up to join the CSMTA. And and again, that's a whole other can of worms. We're not here to discuss them in terms of general regulation, but that's just as an aside wow, that's okay, it's great.

Eric: 8:54

I like some. I like a lot how these conversations sometimes just kind of roll with the punches, so to speak, go from one way to the other. But let's talk, let's talk about the, let's talk about regulation, because that was kind of the the key thing, and so this, I think this does play into it, which is which is great. So thanks for making those points, monti. But you know, you guys, being a Saskatchewan, let's let's just throw the big question out there are you pro regulation?

Michelle: 9:17

maybe we'll start with you, michelle, because we haven't heard from you yet yeah, perfect in my pro regulation, absolutely, and I'm pro regulation for I mean what I consider is the right reasons. It's for the, for our public safety and for the reputation of massage therapists in general as a health profession. So, yes, I am pro regulation in Saskatchewan what about you, monti?

Monty: 9:45

100%, absolutely pro regulation, for sure that's an easy, simple answer.

Eric: 9:53

What do you guys think the barrier is to regulation, like, why is the Saskatchewan not regulated?

Monty: 10:01

well, we are legislated, now we are legislated, but the transition committee between the three associations have to work to set up the college properly before we can actually get the proclamation day. For yes, we're regulated, so we're. We're half to three quarters of the way there, I guess, if you will, and you guys have like a.

Eric: 10:26

Is there a date or a timeline where you're where they expect? You guys will have that to go through.

Michelle: 10:31

I mean initially the timeline was going to take five years from when the three organizations came together. However, covid came and went and kind of prolonged that and I know just from my short-term experience being part of that committee that was sort of the goal. But then government process takes long period, no matter what you're doing, and other priorities will come across the desk. So I think we can, probably I'm. I mean, I'd be happy if we can see that within the five years, but I'm realistic and saying maybe seven Monti. What do you think?

Monty: 11:18

well, I'm ever the optimist. I don't know if it's the time or place to give my history, but I have literally been waiting for 27 years, since I was told we were going to be regulated. And I've been fighting along with the or not fighting, but working towards regulation ever since 1996. So to see it actually get to this stage it's like okay, well, don't get the hopes up too much, but I would like to think we would have it done in the next three years to finally get our stuff together and have all three associations and the transition committee agree on a proper entrance exam, if you will, or a proper board exam, if you will. So I'm hopeful that they can work together and get that done in the next three years.

Eric: 12:09

I have something I'd like you guys to clarify too, just because I would imagine most people don't really know much about it. You have three different associations, so there's m tasks, there's NHPC and what's the third?

Eric: 12:22

Simota, simota or TTA, yeah, yeah, okay yeah, and so NHPC and Simota are not big and BC at all. We only really have one association, so you guys have three. Now all three of these associations need to come together to kind of agree to work towards regulation, was there? How has that process been? Because, if I remember correctly from talking to you guys off air, you guys are, but you, michelle and Monty are in different associations. Is that correct?

Michelle: 12:51

Yeah, yeah, that's correct all right.

Eric: 12:53

So, michelle, why don't you go first and then? And, monty, what association are you part?

Michelle: 12:58

of. So I'm part of NHPC and Monty and I had a really great conversation off air to prepare for this, and I learned a huge volume of information about the path to regulation prior to 2015 that Monty shared with me, and it's only been since about 2015 that NHPC has been quote-unquote at the table, and that was based on the ministry saying, okay, we need to have all of these associations come together, agree on the process in order to go forward again, go forward again, because there's more backstabbing history that I was not aware about. So, yeah, I mean, it's been eight years now for NHPC working collaboratively with the other two associations to get things to the point where they are today.

Eric: 14:04

And I imagine that's probably. Each association has their own agenda of what they how they want things to look. Is that correct?

Michelle: 14:11

Yeah, that's correct. I think one of the significant challenges is that the two of the of the three associations do not have what they call a board exam to join their association. Their requirements to be part of the association is being, you know, a graduate of a 2200 hour massage therapy program, and then your English language competency as well, and then your first ACPR and criminal background record check. So those are the only requirements needed for the for two of the three associations, and then Monte can speak to this. But the third association and pass actually has what they call a board exam. And then the third association has what they call their board exam. In order to be a member, they have to pass the board exam. And so, from my experience, the the biggest hurdle has been agreeing upon whether or not current massage therapists can be grandfathered into the college, and that's a point of contention I know two of the three associations agreed that, yes, the current massage therapist should be grandfathered in without having to challenge a board exam, and that's been rectified and settled and everything is going forward now. And then the other contention was okay, any new graduates, once the colleges struck, any new graduates entering into the college, must write a an exam. But what does that exam look like and what are we basing it off? So that those are the been the primary sticking point.

Michelle: 15:56

Fhen also, what a lot of therapists don't know is like financially to start an actual physical college takes a lot of money and and nobody knows yet where this magic money is going to come from to create an actual college. So who's giving? Who's giving what to to have you know you need your college registrar, you need college, you know other employees to start the process and you can't just, you can't just weigh your hat on the massage therapist paying their college dues or college fees to fund this college. So I think that's also a big question mark that's up in the air right now is where's the money coming from to actually then see this go forward? Once the minute free says yay, okay, we've passed this, but then we still need X amount of millions of dollars, right, so yeah, it's not a cheap process, for sure.

Eric: 16:59

Maybe we'll we can talk a bit more about that in a minute. I just want to, so I want to your mtas, or so is mtas the largest association in Saskatchewan.

Monty: 17:09

Well, now are you talking in terms of members or in terms of being known, I suppose?

Eric: 17:16

Let's go members. How many members does mtas have like compared to the other ones?

Monty: 17:21

Oh boy, that's a great question. I should have had those facts. I believe we're around 850 members somewhere in that neighborhood. But talking with Michelle she had mentioned to me that they have. They have more than that within HPC for massage therapists, which I was kind of unaware of. I still thought we were the largest association in Saskatchewan. So the numbers are fairly comparable, fairly even, I suppose.

Monty: 17:48

So going back into my history of mtas, when I joined there was no mtas, so I'll give you the recollection as far back as I can go. So I started my schooling in January of 1995. And there was a class just before me six months prior. So that would have been in June of 94. And that was the year that it became mandatory to take a two year 2200 hour program in Saskatchewan. Prior to that it was 1100 hours. So we were one of the group ahead of me and myself were the first ones to take the 2200 hour program. Now that's Saskatoon. There's a couple of other schools in Regina so I can't speak to them. I believe they probably would have followed suit as well.

Monty: 18:31

So back then there were three associations the SMTA, the Saskatchewan Massage Therapist Association, the LCSP, fis, which is out of England, and the AMTWP, the associate. Sorry, hang on. What did I say? Now I'm getting confused. Oh sorry, the PSRMT, the Provincial Society of Remedial Massage Therapists. So this is the one that I joined because legally you could still work after one year. So the requirement was is that you could join an association and work after year one, but you had to be enrolled in year two to take that 2200 hours. So that's what I did. That's why people say well, how did you start practicing in October of 96 if you weren't done school? That is how I came to start practicing early. So back then there was no board exam, except for with with the SMTA. You had to write a board exam.

Monty: 19:31

So, interestingly enough, I stepped up to be on the PSRMT's executive committee because I could be and a lot of people were going. Well, how can you be on the executive if you've only got one year in? You're going back to school and I said, hey, far be it from me to want to step on toes, but I have the same education as you do right now 1100 hours. I don't see anybody else stepping up to want to be a part of your executive committee. If you would like to, please go for it because I've got a second year of school to go and, like they usually do, nobody stepped up. So you're fine, you go ahead to keep doing it.

Monty: 20:07

So the goal back then in that next year of school, as I was on the executive committee or a member at large, I guess I was called was how can we get amalgamation? We want to be regulated. Back then in 95 the government said, hey, you three associations get your shit together, figure it out, because we're not going to put anybody at work, so get it done. So all three associations work that year quite a bit to amalgamate and they amalgamated in I believe it was December of 1996. So they did the process of amalgamation in 96.

Monty: 20:47

And I can't say this for certain, but the very first board exam that came out from M TAS, which was formed in 9596, we had to take that first board exam. So I believe we were the first ones that passed an MQE in Saskatchewan to practice. So there's the history that Michelle didn't know, for when we talked, and I think it was not even a year later, there were some people that were unhappy with the board exam process again and they decided to splinter off all of a sudden again. And that's when the AMTWP, the Association of Holistic Massage Therapist and Practitioners, came in. So all of a sudden we had two associations again. We went, well, this is defeating the purpose of what we were just trying to do, and it sort of splintered off from there again in terms of another association coming in. And then I think AMTWP ended up around 1992 is when they were formed, and I think they were out of Alberta, so they ended up finding their way into Saskatchewan and then they created another group there.

Eric: 21:59

It's amazing to me how many different associations you guys have had in a small province in a short period of time. There's been numerous ones, have just kind of come and gone.

Monty: 22:09

Yeah. So I mean you cut me off whenever you want if you've got side questions. But that's the history of our initial amalgamation in Saskatchewan and how, all of a sudden, it kind of descended because one set of people didn't like that, they didn't pass the board exams or they didn't like the rules. So they thought, well, we're not going to stop from practicing, you can't put us out of work, so we'll go to another association. And so we were kind of right back at square one.

Monty: 22:35

But MTAAS had a lot of traction early on and put in a lot of the time and work to get things up and running. And that's where I think the divide always was between MTAAS members. And then when NHPC came in and the thought process was okay, well, what are you doing? You're not wanting to work towards regulation, this is what we've been pushing for and this is what we need. And even while similar wasn't here, it was the RMTA, I think, the Registered Massage Therapist Association of Alberta, which I believe turned into similar afterwards. So that's some of the background there on that process and as well, I've been part of the Education Committee way back when and we took our exam and I think this is one of the things that we felt set us apart was the fact that we weren't just taking the school's word for it that the students had passed their $2,200 exam.

Monty: 23:32

There was an independent exam which we thought was unbiased and an arbitrary exam, if I use the right word there, that we had come together to form so that students coming out would have to challenge a board exam provincially to make us kind of on par with a lot of other healthcare professions. I mean, I think I believe every other healthcare profession has a national exam that they have to pass, or a provincial exam. So why wouldn't we want one? Why would we just want to take the school's words coming out saying, oh, they're fine, they're competent? That's the very lay persons way of describing it. I don't know if you want to add anything there, michelle, to that, or if you want me to continue.

Michelle: 24:18

No, I think it sounds great. I think it's a good summary of the history and where you're at today. This is just my question and a food for thought. I would like to question the other associations as to why they do not have that competency exam Right, just as a thought. But that's for a podcast for another day and maybe some other guests for you, eric, to come on as well too.

Monty: 24:52

And I do wonder, michelle, because M-TAS is dedicated only to Saskatchewan? Yeah, nhpc is.

Michelle: 25:01

Western. Well, it's Canadian-wide right. I mean, there's thousands and thousands of members in NHPC NHPC represented but most of them are represented in the unregulated provinces. You've got Alberta, saskatchewan, manitoba, and I know they had some members down east as well too. So the shift for them also is going to come once these other provinces become regulated as well.

Eric: 25:33

Yeah, it only makes sense. Sorry, monty, you didn't mean to drop, you just said the comment you said there, michelle, about the board exams. And why would an association not want a board exam? And the way I look at that and this is just my biased response that is that the associations don't really care about the quality of the people that they are regulating per se, because it's a business, right. They want many members in order to survive as a business. So putting a board exam in place if not mandated, to me would just be a barrier to membership. So it comes down to the therapist. Is the therapist? Do they want to be a healthcare professional? Yeah, is that their primary focus?

Eric: 26:20

I'm not saying that people that are part of NHPC or SMOTA aren't. I'm saying that, if you do, you want to take the easy road or you want to take the hard road. Some people would be like, well, I want to prove to myself that I can pass this board exam, so I want to view myself as being at a higher level, maybe of competency or education. Maybe that person is going to go towards M-TAS because there's this perception for them, I don't know. Versus the other ones, maybe people are like, well, I know I'm good, I don't need to take this unnecessary cost of doing a board exam, so I can still practice and be my member of these associations, and I would assume that that is probably the rationale for me associations for doing it that way. I could totally be wrong and I'd be happy to be wrong.

Monty: 27:08

Well, question for you If you were to come out to Saskatchewan right now, being in a regulated province, which association would you join, and why?

Eric: 27:18

Well, I would join M-TAS 100% because it's just Saskatchewan and that board exam is that perceived extra requirement to be there. Also, I know the people at M-TAS, I know Lori and I know Jane and I've known. Danelda for a long time, so I've got connections there. The only person I've ever known as part of the HPC is Michelle, and not that that is a barrier to knowing only one person, but I think just the standards that I know M-TAS better, I know what they represent better.

Michelle: 28:01

But I think so. If we talk about standards, though, like, okay, here's my example. Because when, when I was talking to Monty about why I chose NHPC is my association. I took my schooling in Alberta. I traveled out because and again, this is my bias when I reviewed the curriculum of the Saskatchewan schools in 2013, 2014, and saw that all the schools were still teaching hydrotherapy spa type and again, no disrespect to spa services, but they were, in their curriculum had non evidence based material.

Michelle: 28:45

I was like and again, I'm a different cat because of my prior university background, but I was like, I'm not wasting my time on that, I want to get to the meat and potatoes of massage. You know anatomy, physiology, all that wonderful stuff Because I know what kind of practitioner I want to be and I want to be the practitioner considered to be a healthcare provider. So when I was going to school in Alberta, we actually weren't even educated on mtas as an association, whereas the Saskatchewan schools, mtas always goes in and talks to their students about like them as an association and things like that. So it wasn't even wasn't even a question for me. It was like, oh, do I go with some motor NHPC?

Michelle: 29:34

And at that time, some motor was just newly reformed and then it was like, well, I knew of mtas and I knew they had a board exam, but I would in my mind I mean it was my second career choice down the road and I'm like I've already finished a degree, I've already written a national competency exam for my exercise physiology credentialing to help I'm going to write another board exam just to say I know what I'm doing because I have experience and double the education and so my, my choice when going with with NHPC was because it was just easy and I didn't feel like people are going to look at me and say, oh well, you're not mtas, so you're.

Michelle: 30:21

You're not at that level or standard of practitioner because you didn't quote unquote write a board exam. But at the end of the day, the public doesn't know the difference. I've had treatments from all different kind of therapists who've been in NHPC or been an mtas and just because someone writes the board exam doesn't make them a better practitioner. And so I think his quality assurance is what it is.

Monty: 30:47

And having said that, michelle, I've seen you, you've treated me, you're actually I trust you 100% with my care and I'm not concerned that you're not part of them tasks whatsoever, but I think you're a bit of an exceptional as well. Yeah, because you have your background and can. A lot of people coming in don't have the previous background that you have. So I think this ties in with the educational standard. We can touch on this briefly and maybe come back to it later, because I got too many hamsters running in the in the head right now. But the issue I don't think is the schools like I don't think NHPC or some other go into the schools and do any talks and Saskatchewan like they do now.

Michelle: 31:32

Oh, yeah, what I was involved when I was involved with the school here in Saskatoon. Yeah, they definitely they did come in. Yeah.

Monty: 31:42

But so, speaking to that, mtas has always gone in and to Eric's earlier comment, I think probably the biggest thing that I have been the most firm on is that we have been mtas, in my opinion, has been the leader in trying to get ready. We've been trying to get regulation since the get go and and we talked about this too there's NDAs with the association, so they won't talk about financials or or any of the other details, and this could have been one of the barriers and less Michelle and I had talked, I wouldn't have known that HPC had come to the table in 2015. I wouldn't have known that mtas was doing the bulk of the work from 95 to 2015 and and that contributing heavily financially towards lobbying the government, and so now it's been eight years that HPC has been helping. So a lot of people have to think swallow their pride and all this other stuff and go OK, we're all working together. Now I use the analogy with Michelle when we were talking Eric, that I felt like the little red him.

Monty: 32:52

I felt like mtas members and us were doing, so to speak, all the work and everything, and everybody didn't want to do the work. They just wanted to eat the bread and jump on and share the look, you know, sharing the in the fruits or the spoils of the labor. And that seemed to be more evident because we were so close to regulation in 2015, to the best of my knowledge, and I believe that is when HPC said oh no, we need to actually lobby the government. And they went to the government and said no, no, no, no, no. You can't just make mtas there Personally, you have to make it fair to everybody, and that, I believe, is the timeline of when they came to the table.

Monty: 33:30

And so a lot of us were like OK, another setback in regulation. Why is an HPC doing this Now, eight years later? It makes sense because you don't want to put anybody who's got $2,200 or has got their remedial massage therapy certificate out of business. And so I think that older generation, myself included, have had to come to terms and go. Because I was asked in a survey and I said you know, I want to do what's good for the profession of massage therapy. I don't want to do necessarily what's best for an association, because once the college gets set up Eric, you're right, 100 percent the associations will be only there for membership and money and doing what they need to to retain members.

Eric: 34:12

It's going to be the college that benefits the most right For sure, and that's such a great point is that you know the associations are there for the, there to support the members.

Eric: 34:22

So if you have three associations, really they're going to be there to whether it's provide courses or advocacy to the public or whatever to basically promote their membership. And they're a business they need to. They need to attract members, whereas the college doesn't care about that because everyone's going to have to be a member of the college and the college is I mean, I'm not sure the dues are going to be in here in BC. They're like $600 a year for your college and then your association dues are optional, but those can be another $600 to $700 as well If you want to be part of that. Even if you want to just get insurance, it's still not a couple of dollars a month or sorry, not a month a year just for like liability and outpractice. So to I don't know what. What's the cost now to be a member of your guys association? Because it's going to cost people more, I imagine.

Monty: 35:10

We're 425 GST included.

Michelle: 35:14

Yeah, we're about there as well too, In that neck of the woods.

Eric: 35:18

Right, so now add. So now you're going to have to add probably another $500 or $600 on top of that to a college do and that's, and that's a, that's a that's a barrier to to practicing as well, because you know that's more money out of your pocket.

Michelle: 35:32

Or is there a barrier though for, like, do I have to be part of an association when I'm in the college? No, right, I mean the call. The purpose of a college is for the public's protection, Right? The associations advocate for the massage therapists. Yeah, and now these associations are trying to do both. How can you advocate for massage therapists and how can you protect the public, right? So once the college comes, as long as you're a member of the college in good standing, is there, is there going to be a rule that says you have to also belong to your provincial or any massage association?

Monty: 36:12

No, but I believe I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you're part of an association we would get a lot of advertisements about Eric's courses or other instructors courses that are coming up. You get a better insurance rate because you get group insurance rate. You get different groups. So there are some pros to still being a part of an association. Those are only three I can think of top my head.

Eric: 36:37

Yeah, and it really depends on the numbers in your association too, and what you know the board of directors and executive director, and you know what do the members want, and BCR association was we got over 3,000, 3,500 members in our association, and there's about 50% of it because there's about 7,000 RMTs in BC, but half of them are in the association and they do. They do a conference every year and they do advertising for courses. They've got like a newsletter that goes out. You know they lobby insurance companies they work with. You know ICBC, so our provincial auto insurer, worksafebc, so for workplace like they do that kind of stuff, which is great if you know, if you benefit from it.

Eric: 37:24

The problem is, though and this is what you see in BC here and I'm sure it's in other regular provinces too is that, because the association is the one working for the profession and it's a voluntary membership, all people that are not paying into it still get all the benefits of the work the association does, and that creates a lot of frustration, from my observation of conversations I've had with people Like do you realize that you just getting all these benefits because of the money that your colleagues are putting into it? And that's something that may come up in Saskatchewan once you guys get that, is the people deciding on which association to go to. We're just pulling out all together and just being like I'm just going to be a part of the college and because I have to practice, I don't care about the advertising and stuff.

Monty: 38:20

Yeah, well, and you know another thing with that is so in the last two years, mtas has now waived the examination fee that we used to charge, because we know so it was always a break-even exam, because I've been one of the provincial board examiners off and on for 20 some years probably, I guess, and we just had a set of board exams here a couple of weeks ago and they're well attended. And so just to go back to that and I think this will tie in nicely with are the schools doing what they're supposed to do and is the government doing what they're supposed to do with the curriculum and the way it's supposed to be? So we had always been told that our exam was biased. It was one way. And so we worked with the schools. We went into the schools and said, hey, here's your curriculum. This is government mandated curriculum that you're teaching. What are you teaching, what we're going to be testing on? Well, what do you think is important? So we talked to all the schools. We had roundtables back when I was more a part of the board. Back then We'd have roundtables every year. What's updated, what's different. We're not going to basically give you our exam, but we're going to tell you what is important.

Monty: 39:35

You know that we feel was important to know and so, after many years of having that same exam and too much pushback, we decided okay, we need to go to a general competency exam. So Lori and some of us exact, and the other exact more so than me, because I wasn't on the exact, I was just a member at large worked heavily with CMTBC to not replicate but to do a mock British Columbia exam how can we best formulate this? And we went through a ton of different things to reformat that exam to make it a general competency exam. And I remember I was, we were part of a pilot project. It was Don Wickstrom back then that was heading it up and I think Cassandra Exner Williams was our chief examiner. But we revamped the whole M-TAS exam to kind of go with what a regulated provinces exam would look like.

Monty: 40:33

I believe that was 2000 and 2015,.

Monty: 40:38

I think 2016 is when we did the revamp and we met out in Craig and we had all the Saskatchewan schools come in and we said, okay, here's what we're thinking how an actual exam would go, a mock competency exam and we asked for their feedback and we got their feedback and we put that into the exam, and so that's what we currently have as our board exam for the last eight years.

Monty: 41:03

We still get lots of well, we didn't know you were teaching that, we didn't know we were doing that, and it's like we've gotten your feedback from the schools over the years. The problem, I believe, lies in the fact that a lot of the schools, because they're paying so low, are only having people that have been out for two or three years and back then they had an agreement between all the schools that they would. If I'm right I hope I am that no student would instruct for at least three years. They would have at least three years experience in the field before coming back to the school and instruct. And now some of the schools are coming back after a year or they've just graduated and they have them teaching. So that should be a big part on the college but on the government to go in and evaluate the curriculum that they're actually teaching.

Michelle: 41:55

Actually. So I'm going to interject, monty, because earlier you had said when you brought those schools together to review the government mandated curriculum. There's a little correction there for you Government only approves the curriculum. So when I had my experience working at the school that I was working at here, in order to be approved by the Ministry of Post-Secondary Education and Private Vocational Schools here in Saskatchewan, the school as a business, just like your business, submits a proposal for their program and they submit the school submits the curriculum that the school wants to teach and then the government reviews everything and makes sure it checks off everything on the assessment list from the ministry. And then the ministry says, okay, your business plan or your school curriculum looks great, but the government doesn't compare it or doesn't look at what are the national standards for massage therapists. The government is looking at it from a does it meet the number of hours that the school is advertising it meets? Does it meet the educational criteria that could make it eligible for student loans? So there's nobody at the government saying, oh, yes, this curriculum checks all the boxes for massage therapy school. No, this curriculum checks all the boxes for a program which happens to be massage therapy. And so the government approves the school's curriculum that the school presents to the government. So it's the schools, as a private business, have full reign to develop whatever curriculum they want for their massage therapy program, and as long as they're following the same curriculum that was submitted to the ministry for approval, then they're okay. So it's actually the school's responsibility to make sure they're doing what is just and what is what is right in the eyes of our profession currently, right now, because there's nobody monitoring the schools, coming in and saying hey wait, why are you guys teaching how to do a mud wrap in a massage therapy program? Where is mud wrap in the in the evidence based efficacy protocol for massage therapy? How does that fit in? Well, we've been teaching this because this is how it's been taught for the last 25 years.

Michelle: 44:25

So I think it's and again, this is before my time coming into this, but I think it's wonderful that MTAs sat down with all these schools in 2016. However, of that, that meeting in 2016, how many of those school directors or head instructors are even still teaching number one and number two? None of those schools want to share their curriculum. It's very hush, hush, right, and so I can guarantee now I know, I know of one school in the city who's still teaching very old, outdated information to their students, and no one's policing that for lack of better words. So, yes, the ministry approves the curriculum because it said that this school can get funding as a private vocational school and they can give the student student loans. It checks those boxes, but nobody except for a college will be actually reviewing the curriculum, and so I think that's the benefit too.

Michelle: 45:24

When a college comes in is like what kind of curriculum are you guys teaching, right? Are you guys teaching what's evidence based and substantial in today's you know healthcare platform, or are you just teaching hocus, pocus let's throw some mud wrap on their feet and call it massage therapy, right? And so I think We've come back to this. I think all three of us can agree on this right. These new grads are only as good as the school they attend, and we need to do a better job of educating potential massage therapists to really dig deep and look at the school's curriculum before they shell out their $20,000, $30,000, but also dig deep and ask, well, who is instructing and how long have they been practicing as a massage therapist? Right, and then make your choice, not because it's in your city or not, because you can do a hybrid learning model, look at the curriculum, look at the instructors and decide from that in order to make sure you're doing the right thing. Right, because nobody else is checking in on that right now currently. Yeah.

Eric: 46:29

And I was just.

Monty: 46:31

Oh sorry.

Monty: 46:32

This is another reason why I really enjoy conversing with Michelle. I love how you just articulated that. That was so well said. Thank you for educating me a little bit more. I know we talked about it briefly before, but that's a fantastic explanation and I would say that that gives a little more credence to why I'm excited about regulation and why whether it's the best exam out there. That's why I think M-TAS went for the exam, because you don't know what the schools are doing. We're actually looking at protecting the public by having that qualification. So thanks again, Michelle. Appreciate that, no problem, M-T.

Eric: 47:14

And I just wanted to. That was great, michelle, and thank you for saying that. I just wanted to add to that too, because the biggest problem that a profession has and I get people, I would say, weekly, emailing me and some people hate me for saying this and some people are like thanks for saying that is the biggest problem our profession has is our entry to practice education as shit. For the most part, it's not very good across the board, across the country, and a lot of it's outdated. A lot of it is what you said, michelle, is like.

Eric: 47:41

It's just the way things have always been done, so, therefore, it gets passed off as truth, and my last podcast I recently released with Whitney Lowe he called it the lineage model of care, which is basically just gets passed on from generation to generation, and that's the point in the current oral history, right? It's based on kind of this outdated bio-mechanical, biomedical way of looking for dysfunctions and anatomical differences and fixing them, and that's how most of the curriculums are done out there. Now, the problem that we have, though, is that, so, even in BC and in the regulated provinces, the college is the one that examines based on the curriculum, but the problem is, the curriculum sucks. For the most part it's not very good. The inter-jurisdictional competency documents very outdated. There's some good stuff in there. There's things in there which gets interpreted to being how a school wants to interpret that information and then they teach based on that Right.

Michelle: 48:46

Because if anyone, you guys might, be familiar.

Eric: 48:48

Some of you listeners might be familiar with the competency document.

Michelle: 48:52

It's quite You're talking about like the thumb track. Yeah, yeah, it's quite You're familiar with it.

Eric: 48:58

Yeah, it's quite vague, right in some of the stuff. And like it says things in it like RMTs must learn how to do a postural assessment, but it doesn't tell you whether, like what the point of it is. It doesn't tell you whether there's validity to it. There's no evidence in it, right? So it's just like. So people are like oh well, you know, when I learned how to do a postural assessment using plumb lines, you know 20 years, I'm going to teach people how to do that now, even though also in that same document it says you know, a massage therapist must read current research and be evidence-based. Those two things contradict each other. So if you're going to be evidence-based, you're going to realize that doing that static postural assessment has no evidence to it.

Michelle: 49:42

Well, exactly right, and that's. That was the conundrum I got into when I was teaching here a couple of years ago. It was like teaching in an assessments class and I'm like I have to teach you assessments because it's on the curriculum, but we know the validity of these assessments is shit. So, and how many of you are going to hang a plumb line in your clinic room before you assess somebody?

Eric: 50:04

Zero, right, it doesn't happen, but it's how the curriculum is often taught, anyway. So then and then. So the schools teach this stuff and then the Our regulatory college examines based on what these nine or 10 schools that have NBC are examining. Same thing happens in Ontario, right, because the schools teach to pass a board exam. It doesn't mean that the board exam is a valid I'm going to call it defensible document with evidence. It's a representation of the students who are being taught.

Eric: 50:34

The government, the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Advanced Education from my experiences with our college and with our association here, is they. The government doesn't care. Yeah, right, they're just like you said, michelle, I loved how you said that but they're just making sure that it ticks these boxes to be an exam, and so the quality of what the students are taught needs to change. But then the schools then need to go to the college, and maybe it's going to be easier for you guys in Saskatchewan, with less people, I don't know, and less schools, but they have to go to the. They're going to have to go to the college and get together and say, hey, this is what we're teaching.

Eric: 51:14

But when you have nine or 10 different schools all teaching different stuff. Or you know, like how are they going to agree? Like look at how difficult it was for you guys to get three associations together to move towards regulation and having a conversation, can you imagine me like getting all these different private schools together to talk about let's come up with a curriculum that's evidence-based, that's within our scope of practice, and let's all work together to build this? And there's no way it's going to happen. No, unless there's an external pressure on them. And I personally I would like to think that external pressure would be a college, but I don't think the college. That's not their mandate.

Monty: 51:53

No, I don't think they'll do it, because you're not going to take away from a private enterprise and what they're teaching and their proprietary stuff, so to speak, what they're selling, that makes them unique. It'd be very difficult, I think.

Eric: 52:08

Oh yeah, and I just, I mean, I talk about this and complain about this all the time. Maybe somebody will listen and take charge of doing this. But you guys, I mean, I've expressed great points from your perspective too, but the board exam and the licensing and the one question that you had submitted to me before Michelle, to talk about was like why have a board exam and how do we ensure it's actually relevant?

Michelle: 52:35

Yeah.

Monty: 52:36

I mean I think you have experience with this, because Like you mean currently with M-tas or with a college.

Michelle: 52:47

Well, I think I mean. My answer to all of this is like the three of us just need to create one master's school that everyone across Canada attends, and then we know it's relevant and up to date and people are doing the right thing. So I don't know if you guys have this board exam, but let's face it, we're too busy playing soccer and drinking Starbucks and enjoying our own lives to do that. So, at the end of the day, right, why have a board exam? And is it relevant if we don't have the quality of education being presented as it relates to that inter-jurisdictional practice document that says you know we're doing evidence-based massage therapy, you know?

Monty: 53:32

that's a great question. I mean, I still I guess I still look at it as you know. On one hand, you're 100% right about, okay, what are the schools teaching? Can we control that? Right now, no, is it evidence-based, or evidence-informed at least? Okay, is it relevant? I still think we need to have, until we get that college set up and legisl Sorry, regulated, because we are legislated. I still think we need to have an MQE exam because I still think that it holds up the integrity of massage therapists, in Saskatchewan at least. I mean, I look at every other healthcare professional in terms of physios or chiro's, they all have a. I don't even know if they have a provincial exam anymore. They have a national exam. But if we're unregulated, I think it still sets us apart and says, hey, we're not going to take what the schools have taught you. And yes, maybe the exam is outdated, even though we thought it was updated because we've worked with regulated provinces on it. I still think it's a necessary component until we get that legislation.

Michelle: 54:46

Yeah Well, or would you agree to necessary component, 100% necessary once the legislation comes through and that becomes part of the college's mandate? Because, again, currently I don't think the public knows or cares if somebody is NHPC or M TAS or some older. Right now I think they, I value for M TAS that having that exam is important for them as an association and I respect that. But again, until the public understands when, why it's important, what does it matter? And I think that's where I think having the college is going to take that up that notch, where the public will then understand the valve, the importance of it. Right now the only reason the public cares is if they're being, is if they're workers compensation or SGI, because M TAS therapists are the only therapists who have billable rights to direct bill WCB or SGI claims, and that's the only reason the public quote on air quotes would care is if I was in a car accident and my Cairo says I need massage. So they're going to refer me to an M TAS therapist because they can direct bill WCB and SGI, right. And that's just from my experience, because if you look at statistically speaking and I was the nerd who did this, because that's who I am.

Michelle: 56:18

I actually kind of collaborated with NHPC to say like I've talked to a couple clinics in the city who are physio Cairo clinics and I've investigated what percent of their billables are actually those third party insurers like workers comp and SGI, because there was there was a significant bias in advertising for massage therapists that it always said M TAS therapists, m TAS therapists, and when they started investigating their actual clinic income, like maybe two to 5% of their income was from those types of clients and the rest were all private insurance right and coverage or out of pocket payments. So my my goal was to educate the other community of the carers and the physios to say like there's other massage therapists out here, other than M TAS ones too, who are just as competent to work at your clinic. They may not be able to direct bill to WCB and SGI but as a business perspective that's only this tiny little part of your business income. So why are you limiting your scope of potential massage therapists in your clinic?

Michelle: 57:29

So thanks to me, I guess NHPC has been doing a campaign for the last couple of years out to private practices and clinics saying, hey, we're an HPC and we have massage therapists and we're great practitioners too, and this is this is what you know they can bring to your clinic and you know, when you advertise for massage therapists, don't be so biased and saying you want M TAS. Only make sure that you understand that you know there's other streams of income other than this right and I think from my experience working with these other colleagues, the carers and physios, that's their perception too is that the only benefits and M TAS massage therapist is the billables and not necessarily the quality control from the board exam. But I don't think I don't. I don't perceive that anyone has had those conversations with other health care practitioners and I think there's a misperception out there that it's more about the quality of care versus actually it's just because they're more accessible to bill to those two insurance companies.

Monty: 58:43

Yeah, I mean I can't, I can't disagree with what you've said whatsoever. I think it's just like I said. I think I've just known the, the hard work I feel that we've put in, right from 9690 foot 96, all the way through, or at least what I've done, and I just I guess I stand behind it, I guess I believe in it. It's one of those, it's one of those things to that you talk about. It's just like what, I guess. What do you believe and why do you believe it? Okay, well, are our competencies any different? I would suggest that you have a few more competencies in your tool bag than I do, based on your kin degree and your rehab stuff that you've done and it's been amazing. I mean something you got outside of scope of massage therapy practice. But I'm, I guess, jumping right now. I'm happy that you're that the NHPC is finally starting to advertise.

Monty: 59:43

Mtas has been doing it for years and I know lots of people are like I can't believe mtas is doing that. They're making us sound bad. I don't know if that was. I guess that's perception I was. I've always been proud to be mtas and that my associations out there advocating for the public, or at least what we think we're advocating for and bringing a presence and bringing a presence to, you know, massage therapy or I guess this in this case it could be the association with mtas members and I haven't really heard any m, nhpc or some other stuff being out there. But if they're starting to, I think that's that's absolutely great, that your association starting to publicly advocate more.

Michelle: 1:00:24

Yeah, I'm blowing it into and again looking back to this podcast about how would the regulation impact RMT's. I think I've said this to you before, marty, as well as anything that's out. There should be a boat massage therapist as a profession period and not a boat association, a BC or D right. And so we do. We do it for the love of our profession, not for the. I mean, we can love and be proud of our association, absolutely. But when you peel back those layers, you and I can have these conversations very respectfully and very humbly, because you and I both love being massage therapists, period massage therapists, and it doesn't matter what association we belong to or what past background we have. What matters is we love what we do and as a profession, we want to see this profession be elevated.

Michelle: 1:01:22

So the regulation is also going to my opinion and I hope it does eliminate this great divide between a, b and C association so that we can all still be very proud of being massage therapists and still feel connected to our association, because it does a hell of a great role of representing massage therapy as a whole and not just its own slogan and tuning its own horn for its own association right.

Michelle: 1:01:54

And who knows, maybe once the colleges is here and we're going to see a great shift from all the members of NHPC and some more to move into mtas, because it'll be interesting to see how those associations and they may or may not crumble with this college. And I think the college is going to create that mandate of neutrality right, and it's going to say you can't advertise this association or that massage therapist with a priority or with a bias over another, another massage therapist or another association. So it creates equality, for which we'll hopefully harmonize all the professionals in our province and and break down those invisible walls that we've all put up around ourselves and really help us appreciate each other for the fact that we're all a human and be. We're all massage therapists who love our profession.

Eric: 1:02:54

I love that, michelle. Yeah, well said, you're very quotable, michelle. I love it. Thanks. One thing I just wanted to say to just kind of as we wrap up here a little bit, is that, you know, the way I see it from kind of an outside observer is that all the different associations creates an us versus them 100%.

Eric: 1:03:15

Or we have this or, as in Monte's case with is some of the problems with being in the CSMTA is you have that regulated versus unregulated, this constant us versus them, which is, like you said, it puts up, puts up barriers, like these artificial barriers, rather than what we're looking for is we're all professionals, we're all massage therapists, we all want what's best for our clients, our patients, the people that come to see us, and we want what's best for for the public as well as what's best for the profession.

Eric: 1:03:46

And when you've got these different associations kind of trying to vie for control and power, I think it negatively impacts the profession in ways, in bigger ways than probably people want. A lot of people maybe don't want to admit, but that's what I would see, because if you're looking, if you're moving towards regulation and I think the regulation is where we should all be like the profession should be regulated in every province. We should have a national standard or national exam that is like the same and there should be a curriculum that is pretty much the same, you know, and so that we should have a licensing exam of some kind and hopefully it's evidence based and hopefully it's better than it has been. But we do. We do need that regulatory process and you know we need the associations to stop fighting with each other or like trying to vie for power, because that that us versus them is is not helping.

Monty: 1:04:44

I don't think no, and that's great. That's why we're all working together now and hopefully getting that out of our minds at least. We're all connected together now, like Michelle said, and will truly be all connected once regulation comes in. So I wouldn't be still doing massage therapy after 28 years on this body if I didn't love what I'm doing.

Eric: 1:05:09

I appreciate. I think we should. I. We had a whole bunch of talking points. I think we've only addressed like a fifth of them. I think we should. We should have you guys back on and do a part two, if you're up for that, and we can kind of expand on this, maybe a little bit more talk about something else. I've really enjoyed, enjoyed this, enjoy listening to you guys talk. I've learned a lot from you. Know your, your experiences, so so thanks for sharing those with with me and with the audience.

Eric: 1:05:34

I appreciate a lot.

Monty: 1:05:36

Welcome. Happy for having you me on.

Eric: 1:05:39

Yeah, thanks. Monday is good to meet you, and thanks again, michelle.

Michelle: 1:05:43

Oh, it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me again. Look forward to part two and three, and four probably.

Eric: 1:05:51

Thank you for listening to my podcast. Please subscribe so you can be notified of all future episodes. Purpose versus is now available to watch on YouTube, so if you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe and share to your favorite social media platforms. If you'd like to connect with me, I can be reached to my website, eric Purviscom, or send me a DM through either Facebook or Instagram at Eric Purvis RMT.