Finding & Catching Giant Kokanee/Trout Eating Bass! (Juice)

If you want to catch the biggest smallmouth bass of your life, you have to look up. In this episode of the Serious Angler Podcast, we sit down with PNW smallmouth legend Joey Walton to break down the exact science of targeting "Kokanee Eaters." These aren't your typical bottom-dwelling smallmouth; these are open-water pelagic hunters that suspend over hundreds of feet of water to gorge on landlocked salmon.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

All right. Welcome everyone to the Sirius Angler Podcast, where as always, our main course video will be talking and hopefully teaching you more about bass fishing. And of course, some random rabbit holes here and there. Whether you guys are here to learn or just hear some bassin conversation, you guys are in the right spot. As always, I'm your host, Bailey Eichbrett, and with me is the stash of Idaho, Mr. Adam Deakin back for another seriously western show. But uh, how's things shaking in Idaho, dude? We we talked last week and it sounds like you guys are basically in uh almost past spring at this point.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Man, yeah, we've got I set spoke a little too soon because we've got some some cold weather rain kind of coming this weekend. Um, however, yeah, it's uh it's warming up. Spring is definitely here, trees are blooming. It's uh it's a great time to be out chasing turkeys and chasing bass. So uh, dude, I thought of you at Clear Lake, and around here, I've just been seeing, I mean, Clear Lake was insane, and then here I've been out on some ranches where like you just see a strutter ripping, ripping across a field, or you just hear one going crazy down a hill. So uh if you were in Idaho right now, or if you were at Clear Lake, you'd be losing your mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Um I don't mean to steer down the the hunting rabbit hole, but I know we do have a lot of hunters on this show that do uh enjoy the occasional tangent. But uh, when is your guys' turkey season open?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Right now-ish. Like uh I want to say April, like right around tax day normally. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yeah, ours are starting to go off here. Uh my buddy and I, we went out fishing uh last week, and uh I got there an hour before sunrise and rigging up rods and everything, and dude, I'm just sitting there. I slammed my truck door, and I'll hear I'm like, oh like here we go. I'm sitting there rigging tackle for 45 minutes, dude. Here I'm going, and I'm just sitting there in my mouth, like I'm rigging tackle, and they're just going ripping back, and I'm like, I didn't want to launch, dude, because I'm just sitting there having fun ripping with two, like three different groups of turkeys that were up on this hillside, and I'm just like, they're going here, they're going there, going there, and they're responding to everything. And like my buddy pulls up and they went gone quiet for a little bit, and he pulls up and he does the whole line of like, hey you guys, and here and I'm just like, like, these freaking turkeys are so stupid, dude. And I'm like, our season doesn't open up for a couple weeks, so I'm just fiending. I'm like, if you guys, if we're seasoned right now, I don't think it'd be mattering what I'm wearing. I'd have a shotgun in the kayak right now just to sneak off and shoot one. But it's it's a fun time, dude. We got a couple lakes around here that don't have houses on them, and uh it's dude, my ADHD, I I severely enjoy just bringing a mouth caller. Sometimes you don't even really need it uh while you're going fishing and just play with them while you're bassing, catching smallmouth, largemouth, and calling the turkeys while you're doing it. It's it's that beautiful time of year. Spring is a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Dude, 100 100%. I am right there with you. I find myself less and less, unfortunately, turkey hunting just between ranch real estate and fishing, like my spring is jammed, but like I need to make it a point. Like it's there's too many around to just exactly that, find a hot bird, whether you're fishing or I'm on a ranch tour and there's public land nearby or have permission, like, need to just have the shotgun in the truck and decoy ready to rip.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's for sure, man. Uh it's funny how these seasons kind of go from us from like obviously fishing's always on the mind, but whether it's deer season, turkey, whatever, just like my my comfort content lately, like when I get home and you know, rip a coffee and try to like set the day. I'm always I got I've been having hunting public on lately, all their their turkey tour and just getting the the the feel going for it all. But um headed down to Louisiana. I well, as this show comes out, I'll likely be on Cato or Bistin O Lake in Louisiana for our Brass or Kyogner this weekend. But uh definitely wish I was chasing some turkeys around. But um man, we have an awesome show today, though, with Joy Walton talking to some kokeney eaters and uh a guy from your neck of the woods.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Dude, yeah, really, really cool show. Great breakdown in a lot of ways. Um, to me, man, I think uh I think that there's some really cool stuff to be learned biologically, like I mean, from the biological biology standpoint that you mentioned, talking to some of the Idaho fish and game biologists, in addition to, I think there's a lot of real world world knowledge, right, from guys that are in and every day spending time on these kokini fisheries with these truly magnificent world-class fish. So it's cool to hear uh some general breakdowns. If you've ever considered chasing coconut eaters on a body of water, this is a great show to hear from one of the best guys doing it.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Absolutely. And it's kind of cool that he's roped in with some of the state agent biologists and all that stuff and helping them with studies. And it's cool when you have that angler state agency connect. Um, I think that's where we're these states are most efficient. So cool to see that. We dive into that a little bit uh and a lot more. But I think, man, without further ado, let's get on with Mr. Joey Walton. Let's do it. All right, folks. Now we are joined by the uh the smallmouth king. I'll crown him as uh the Pacific Northwest. We got Mr. Joey Walton here joining us on the show. And Joey, we were talking a little bit offline. I think we've been trying to make the show happen for what seems like the past like year and a half, two years, and now we finally like, yeah, we need to talk about some kokies. And we're like, who better than to get you on? So I'm glad this finally came to fruition, man, to get you on here.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Right on. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, to to kind of bounce off that too, guys. Uh send in shows that you requested. This all you know kind of revamped in our mind because some people were like, hey, we'd love to see on seriously western and serious anglers something related to coconut eaters. I mean, it's such a unique thing. And man, Joey, you and I had a conversation at the ramp one day that just blew my mind. I mean, your knowledge on on how these fish act and how they're just different in so many ways was like, I just we gotta we gotta dive into this a little bit. I think it's uh it's worth sharing and understanding how unique, pelagic smallmouth can be chasing coconut.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

They're definitely uh they're definitely a task to catch sometimes, but they're they're around.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

So yeah, that's for dang sure. Um yeah, D, kick it off.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, man. I mean, I think the biggest thing, I think, I think coconut eaters are just known kind of in this or or thought to be super pelagic and uh overall just move so often and they're so big, and they get to this certain age where they're just kind of key in on that specific bait species. But what is, I guess, maybe in your mind the biggest uh things to think about when it comes to like maybe think of a new guy who's maybe fished for smallmouth their whole life, traditionally catching them on certain ways, and not to say that stuff doesn't work, but where do you go with a new someone new that's that's fishing a kokonie fishery for the first time? How do they go about thinking about how those fish do things differently?

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Yeah, so um, like you said, the main thing, the main thing about it is like understanding what the bait does. I mean, a lot of people don't pay enough attention to what the bait do in a fishery, like you know, Dorshack. Um the thing about it is people, like you said, people go do their traditional things, throwing Ned rigs, throwing jigs, Sankos down the bank, and that's a great way to catch fish. Don't get me wrong. I mean, that's and you can get lucky up on the bank catching a five, six, seven pounder up on the bank doing that. But truthfully, if you want to figure out how to catch the big small mouth, you have to follow that bait. And another key thing is where is that bait sitting in the water column? And then what size of bait of cooking are they chewing on? Are they chewing on the big stuff? They're chewing on the mid-size, you know, five to seven inch rain, or are they chewing on the baby fry? You know, all that stuff is super important when you when you when you come to a fishery like this, I guess. If you're chasing the giants, you know, they're not always going to show themselves as well. Um, like you said, they're very lethargic in a sense because they are big. They don't got to move a crazy amount if they don't want to. You know, they'll they'll tuck up in rocks and stumps and just wait for a big old ball of coconut to go by them, ambush off the bottom real quick, go right back to where they were. And like understanding and and watching that, you know, you can find a spot where there's a bunch of bait and you don't see any fish out there on the point. Oh, there ain't no fish here. Oh no, they're there. They're there, they're just not ready to eat yet, or you haven't put something in front of their face, you know. So understanding where they're holding up, you know, and honestly, the depth and the size of the bait is really the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I have so many questions. Dude, I know. That's the first one do I want to ask first. Yeah, go ahead, Bailey. Yeah, I I guess just stemming off of what you've already been saying is like the different size bait. Uh, obviously, it's no secret. If anybody follows you, you catch freaking megas, dude. And so with that, like, are you always throwing the bait, trying to catch the biggest one in the pond? Or do you find that the big ones are getting on certain size bait by the day, or is it like a seasonal thing?

SPEAKER_04 9:56

So that's that's really kind of like a seasonal thing for me. Um, like right now, you know, the coconut have matured over the winter, you know, like, and the good thing is a lot of them have made it because we had a very mild winter. We didn't get those harsh temperatures where a lot of that fry might die off because they just they just don't get the heat that they need. Well, you know, if they do make it through that winter time, they grow and you know they grow and they grow. So progressing in the spring, you kind of want to up it up a little bit and throw a little bit bigger profile because the bait has grown. But the farther you get in the year, the bait gets bigger, you know, you just follow farther the year, the bigger the bait you get. And then once you kind of dip off into that fall transition, you're starting with big and you start working your way back down. You know, so later in the year you go smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, because by August, September, you know, your coconut already spawned, you know, and that larger class is that spawned is dying off, and all that fry is starting to make its way back from up north all the way down to the deep pool south. So it's like, you know, if you can follow that that wave the whole way from the upper lake all the way down to the the bottom of the lake seasonal, you know, it is a timing deal. Like you gotta be around those big fish to catch them.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

So right now, when it when it comes to finding that bait, is this something that you're gonna look for structure first and then see if bait is present, or are you out going and idling until you find the bait, then go look for the fish?

SPEAKER_04 11:26

Drop that scope and put the trolling motor on 10, buddy. Because you're gonna find a ball of coconut in a bay or on a point, and you can come back five hours later and they're gone. You know, it's it's it's desolate. So, like what the thing is, is like once you get on a pile of bait, I mean, you're gonna want to just follow that ball of bait around. You know, it don't matter if they go out over a thousand feet of water or five hundred feet of water, you know, there's a lot of times them smallmouth will pull up off the bottom just suspend on them, you know, suspend under them over 500 feet of water and they're sitting under them 40 feet. So, you know, there's a lot of probably shouldn't tell too many people that, but there's a there's a few little tricks, you know, that you gotta you like I said, you just gotta stay around their forage. If you stay around their forage, you got active fish. So got it. And it it is hard to find the bait though, you gotta realize because sometimes sometimes the coconut just is sparse and they're in a hundred feet of water, 120 feet of water, and that's no joke, they're down there. So you know, sometimes it's just a grind. But mainly thing is you gotta find that bait to get those big ones.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Man, I and and I'm thinking of of all sorts of different I've only fished, I don't know, five or six maybe different bodies of water where like coconut is a real factor. Um and I have struggled with that because you find you'll find coconut, I'll find them sometimes, and the bass aren't there, right? And then you and then the opposite of like I've seen it too, exactly, like set up like the same way that I've experienced on say table rock watching bass sit under balls of shad. Um they'll do the same thing. Yeah, just tiny little little little specks out there. But man, it's interesting to hear the different thought process, but you're you're first finding that bait primarily, and then you're just gonna pay attention to that bait and then wait for bass to get on them if the bass are not on them, or are you just looking for structure after finding that bait nearby?

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Yeah, so I'll pull up a like say I pull up on a big flat. Like I got a couple flats right now that are just absolutely just chalked full of bait. I mean, there's bait everywhere. I mean, you don't matter if you're you're 120 feet out, 50 feet down, you scan the scope and 108, it's nothing but bait, you know, and you're just sitting there watching, you know, going through, scanning through, scanning through. Then all of a sudden you see something on the bottom, looks maybe like a rock or a piece of structure, just pop up just a little bit, just gets a little antsy, just enough. Like you're literally dialing in, finding those blobs on the bottom that are moving. You know, you you can't see them all the time because they're just sitting. But once you find that little clue that you know that tells you that they're there, usually if you can get a bait down to them falling, because that's really honestly what they're looking for is falling bait. Because they'll blast through these schools of coconut, they'll eat what they can, kill multiple more, they'll go straight down to the bottom. You'll watch on scope. All the kokiny just spread out, and then there'll be three or two or three left, and they're just floating super slow on the water column. Those bass just super slow come up, just go back down. So I think ambush they kill and they eat at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

So this is like to your point earlier, Bailey, pre-show, like talking about brown fin tuna. This is like, I think of smallmouth as like tuna or killer whales, like orcas, like they're just they're just blowing through stuff and then picking up the scraps after. Like it's freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

And that's important to key through, you know, is like when you watch them on scope, you know, and you watch them come blowing through bait. You necessarily you can cast on them and sometimes get a bite when they're blowing through that bait, but that's not when you're gonna get your bite. They're so keyed in on this stuff that they don't even care about your bait. It's when they, oh, the bait moved, and these guys are trying to follow the bait. When it's just like just chill out for a second, wait for that bait to move and watch that same spot where those fish blew through, and you'll see two little, three little dots sitting there floating. And when you start seeing them come off the bottom, that's when you make your cast. And you drop that right through those three little blind bait fish, and they'll come up and eat it instantly. Wow. So there's not really like you're shaking it back. It's a timing deal. I don't shake. No, no shaking for me. No shake, hover in place, hovering just holding it still and just right in the middle of that dead bait. And if there's any sign of life, like that bait's not moving because it's dead, but if there's any sign of life or your jig moving through there, they're gonna attack it right away. Like, but you gotta wait like five to eight to ten minutes for them to come back up. You get what I'm saying? People rush themselves and follow that bait when they have no idea that when they leave that bait, they turn around. Those three fish or four giants that are coming off the bottom are coming to pick those, you know, pick the easy pickings. If you can catch those easy pickings, fish, those are the ones you want to catch.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

They don't want to chase, they don't want to chase real hard for their food. They're big and fat, man.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

They're like a largemouth, they're like a lazy largemouth sitting under a log. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

I love to be in the boat watching that process happen, but I think trying to go do it right. I don't know if my ADHD could could do that. I think I'd be sitting there after like 10 seconds, you're like, all right, move on.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

It is a patient game, you know. Like when we're like I said, when we fish a derby and when the bait's dominant like that, it'll you know take us most all the day to catch five fish. Like, yeah, sure, we can go out and wreck two, three, four pounders all day if we want to. Like, but that's not what we're going for, you know. We may only get five, six bites in the tournament, but they're all big, you know. I mean, that's that's kind of how we approach that lake now. Dude, that's freaking sick.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Man, I would love to to hear your because you've been fishing Dorshack and other Kokony fisheries pre-scope as well. Yeah, what has opened your eyes? I mean, one of my favorite parts about forward-facing sonar in general is just simply the learning, like you're saying, like watching this stuff happen is like to me, is the the top level would be clear enough water, like we were just at the super 60 and have to like watching stuff happen in real time. I love that. Second best is watching it electronically and learning how these fish set up on bait and otherwise. But like, I'd love to hear some of the craziest things you've seen on forward facing and what was maybe a myth prior to forward facing that we all believed or you believed on that fishery that then changed your mind completely after seeing it firsthand.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

Um, the fish were always there. People sit there and go, oh, there's a down year, there's an up year, lottie day-da. In the past, before forward-facing sonar came out, people were like, Oh, they're not there no more. Or, you know, we're going through a cycle, you may catch a five or six pounder, somebody might get lucky, catch seven and eight throughout the year. But the thing that opened my mind was that spring we had a tournament up there and it was rough. It was rough bags, you know. And this was before forward-facing sonar, and I got I got it that summer, and we went into fall, and everybody was fishing this tournament. And then we hadn't touched the lake in months, and I got forward-facing sonar. I was the first one out there with it, and pulled up on this point, and I was like, let's just go out a little deeper. We went out deeper and I cast the A-rig over this point, eight-pounder ate it instantly. And the school of fish that I saw out there was unreal. We had that, we had that 35-pound limit in like an hour.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

An hour. It was just like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And it was like 10 o'clock. And that's when it was like, you know, and that was pre like me knowing about fizzing fish and stuff like that. I'll be honest with you, you know, I didn't know about catching deep fish like that. I had no idea. So, you know, we're cranking these eight and seven pounders and throwing them in the wells. And then in my mind, at 11 o'clock, I look in the well and they're not doing great. No, they're not doing great, you know, to be honest. And I'm like, yo, we gotta go. So we just skipped the whole rest of the six, seven hours of fishing. We went back to the ramp, grabbed ice, kept it, you know, tried to keep them healthy. But dude, the one thing that I learned is the fish are always there and they have always been there. And I just think they stage up differently at different times of the years. And before scope, nobody knew it. Everybody went to the bank for bass fishing or 20 feet, you know. That's where everybody thought they were they were at. Well, that's not where they were at.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were just diving into a little bit off off air here of the the seminar that I was uh I attended at the Black Bass Symposium uh in Texas this past summer, uh, which I think we believe the the guy's name that ran it was Eli. Uh at least who it's who you've been in in touch with that's putting some of the tracking stuff on these fish, and just seeing how far that they move. It's it's not like I imagine there's not very many areas, if any, that you pull up every time and there's likely gonna be one. Yeah, it's especially when you got one fish that's willing to travel 52 miles in six days. That's that's insane. Going back to the tuna name, that's a that's a freaking tuna. And it's it's insane their movements, man.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Yeah, and it's crazy because I've caught multiple fish up in the North Fork, up in the river arm that have been tagged, you know, with just orange tags, pit tags. And they, you know, you look them up and they're released at Dent or they're released down by the dam. You know, so it's not a it's not a it's a known fact that these smallmouth travel back and forth, back and forth, you know. They just follow the bait, you know. When the kokie starts going up, they follow the kokiny. I mean, that's their food source. That's what the big ones do, man. They're gonna follow their food source, keep them fat and happy. Survival.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

So cool. I mean, I mean, we talk all the time, and it's interesting to see, like you said, a lot of this is public, public studies. I mean, you can go and sift through the information that our our fishing game puts out. Um, and so it's interesting to because I've seen I've looked at some studies in Texas too, of like release fish, right? Of like, okay, a guy catches an eight-pounder in a tournament at Sam Rayburn, and then like the relocation effect of these fish staying in a zone, or at least a portion of them staying, others going. But man, like you were saying with some of this tagged fish stuff, like they're able to track how far that fish moves in a day. Like, walk us through some of what these what these pelagic smallmouth are doing.

SPEAKER_04 22:02

Well, see, they it's crazy because when I was talking to Eli, and we were talking pretty good about the the tags, he said that he could tell temperature and he could tell they'd go up and down in depth. If they were close to a tracker and it was pinging them, he could tell the depth that they were going in and going back down. And he said that. They'd go up, they'd go up in the shallows for a half an hour, and then they'd go back down, you know, and like 45, 50 feet. Then they'd go back up and they'd do this three or four times a day. They'd just go up shallow and then go back down. And he thinks, which I I kind of have the opposite. He thinks that they were going up there into the warmer water to digest and just up there. And that's why, you know, maybe you don't catch those big ones shallow as much because they're just up there digesting. And then they'd go back down and they'd eat deep. Then they come back up and digest again. And I thought it was the other way around because certain times of the year in the winter, you can catch them dirt shallow. I mean, dirt shallow, two feet of water in 48 degree water. And I think they're up there. I honestly think they go up there and feed, grab them, grab them a nice little eight juvenile trout, coconut up there swimming in the shallows, and then head back down deep and chill. You know, and personally that's what I think they do. I and they just it's crazy how much they move because you will pull up on a spot and think that you caught big ones here before. Yeah, there's gonna be other big ones there, but they ain't the same fish. You know what I mean? Like I think there's certain areas in the lake that big ones like to hold up on. They move to other spots. And I'm talking they m they'll move from Bay to Bay. I had a school of fish that was on one side of the lake, it would go sit on this, it would go sit on this rock, rock pile on this side of the lake, and then it'd go half a mile, you know, a mile to the left, and go sit up on another. And this was these were the only fish in this area, and they would transfer back and forth, back and forth from creek to creek. And you just follow them, they'd be on one spot, and then I'd go, oh no, they're not here. Let's go to the other side. Yep, they're here. You go to that side. No, they're not here. You go to the other side, yep, they're here. Like, I think they use multiple areas as their homes, like, and they they're all wired differently, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah, that's freaking sick, especially them like groups of them behaving completely different, but all have the same goal in mind to eat the same thing. That makes things interesting.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Well, and it's crazy because certain times of the year you'll get you'll pull up on a point, and there's I'm not even kidding you, thousands of them, thousands in the summer. Like you throw top water out, like you got 80 of them coming up and trying to eat it. You know, it's hard to get a big one in the summer. Like, you can, like, as we've seen, Milliken got a big one there in the summer. Like, it's possible, but it's so hard because there's so many fish that want to eat, you know. And it's a pretty cool place, though.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, no kidding. I like uh my mind, I've always kind of viewed and and I'll be the first to say, like, I don't I don't know that place very well. I've been there maybe maybe I've had a week or week and a half amount of days on the water on that on that place. I caught my PB there this last year while you were up there, which was sick. But like, dude, that place is hard. I mean hard. I struggle my tail off there most of the time. And it's interesting. I've always viewed it, and Bailey and I have this conversation a lot, just because based he's based in the northeast, a lot of time on the Great Lakes, otherwise, and I've spent some time out there as well. And it's like, man, these these fish, there's just like I think there's, in my opinion, in the Pacific Northwest, we have less smallmouth per body of water in comparison. Like you look at like the Great Lakes, and like you're saying, in the winter, you can literally look at a school of 800 together, like it's insane. But we have these freak giants, right? That like are consistent in that six to eight pound range consistently, like, and it's in my opinion, a lot of it has to do with this forage base that we're talking about, but like, man, it can be so hard. Why do you think it can be so difficult on that body of water and other and I'll tell you exactly the straight reason why it's so hard on there is because everything looks good.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

People don't realize when you go there, the bass, the whole lake is habitat, you know. It's not like you're going to, it's not like you're going to a you know, some southern lake where you're out there side imaging looking for a rock pile or a brush pile, you know, or looking for standing trees or stuff like that. Like people don't realize, like you can literally drop your trolling motor at the ramp and get on a rock bank. These fish, it does not matter where you go on the lake. These fish have a stump, a rock, a flat to sit on. So it's like and they use them all, you know. Why why stop? When they're when these fish move so much, they can just swim in their little house, you know, around the whole lake and just eat kokini constantly. They don't have to, they don't have to stop, you know, unless the bait stops and pulls up, but people don't realize that coconut move a lot. Kokini don't stay in the same areas like for a long time, you know? Yeah, maybe like maybe like a week, you know, you'll get them piled up in an area, but they're gonna all scatter out. They're gonna go deep, they're gonna go push out this way, push out that way, go find banks. I mean, they're constantly following the coconut. So it's just honestly, it's pulling up on the right spot at the right time, and it's knowing it's knowing the feeding windows of the spots, I guess is what I'm saying. Like this afternoon's always good. This spot's always good in the afternoon because the kokini pull up here, soaking their backs, lottie dotty, you know, there's fish behind them all the time. Like, I mean, that's it's really picking your spots at the right times, you know. Yeah, because there are spots where in the morning, yeah, fish eat a lot better than other ones do. And then in the afternoon, you know, in the midday, like when everybody thinks the bite's tough, there's areas on the lake where it ain't tough. You know, there's biters everywhere at all times.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah. You mentioned getting on the trolling motor, putting it on 10, and just burning ground. Yep. At what point or what signs do you need to pull up the trolling motor and buzz to a different area of the lake? Like, is there a telltale sign of like, okay, I've gone 30 minutes and I haven't seen anything, just buzz a different area, or do you have a process for that?

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Turn around.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Turn around straight up, dude.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

You go down a bank. Just because, say you you stop there at 8 a.m., you go down this bank and you spend two hours on the bank. Well, by the time you get back to the starting spot that you wanted to fish at the end of the day, it's gonna be noon. You know what I mean? Like these fish are down a bank. Like, if I know there's a bank that's got them, I'm gonna stay in that bank for the whole day, and I'm gonna beat them up until those five fish turn on. Because once they turn on, if you get into the like I said, it's timing, man. Once you get in the right area, you can get on them fast and quick. And big ones. Like it don't take nothing to find a school of six to eight pounders.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I I'm curious, these fish, like when it comes to obviously very specific time of year, but like when they go to spawn, well, will you find a lot of them will spawn deep, or they will they come up in the shallow and do their deal?

SPEAKER_04 29:26

See, and that's the then that's another issue up here is usually during the spring when they spawn. I think I think they do it a little early up here sometimes because they know that the water comes up. If their beds get too deep, the sun doesn't penetrate, doesn't incubate, incubate the eggs. They know that. I mean, they're smart, you know, it's their house. I mean, it's their they're a wild animal. I mean, they do it, that's what they do. So what I think what happens is if that wave, you know, early April, like I think it had already happened, you know, the water was getting into that 54-55 range out off these flats. Well, when it's muddy and up in there, we don't know how, you know, that could be 60 degrees up in that muddy water in this much water. You know, males could be baking beds up there, what females go up, dump them. She could dump them in five hours and be done. And then the water starts going up, you know. I mean, people don't realize that the water can come up six feet in a day. So it's like you always get just waves of spawners, and I think some big ones do it early. Like some of them, you know, may have been up there sniffing the shallows already. But that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

It's it's super interesting to me, and I and uh again, I've just always chatted with people as far as like, okay, what does the spawn look like on on places like that? But it's it's not as cut and dry as a lot of smallmouth, you know, spawn fishing that you think about, or like because you have this crazy water fluctuation and muddy water generally, because it's all the stuff coming in in timber and and all this mess that we kind of get in a lot of these highland reservoirs when it comes to kokony places, like it's where it's they're normally in very steep reservoirs that fill up a lot with snow melt and otherwise. And so like it's it's interesting, it's not it doesn't make sense to me that they do so well spawning because it's not it's not like they're dealing with so many variables to make babies, like it's brutal.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Like and the thing is, is you know, they'll they'll spawn all the way from mid-April, they'll spawn all the way to all the way to July. Like all the as the water comes up, you know, there's certain points that when the water gets over, they're nice and flat. And when the water gets full, they're in four feet of water the whole time after that, four to five, six feet of water. And then when the water comes back down, the top of those points will just be littered with bends. I'm talking, it just looks like dots, you know. And it's so it's like, you know, you get waves of of spawners definitely in these high lo highland reservoirs. So it's just it's a matter of, and right now with our water being so high, we might actually get a bed fish this year. Don't tell them.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Okay, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

You're saying uh it came up 28 feet in what you said it was six days or something like that? Seven days, yeah, it came out in just that roof.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

That's so absurd to me, dude. Because I was fishing all my my winter stuff, and then I let I didn't fish it because it got nasty that week, and then I went back the next week and I was fishing all my postball and stuff. So that I usually fish in June.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, I mean, obviously it they're they're not the same, but it sounds similar to what uh talking with anglers that are from like the TVA, you know, on the Tennessee River where there's certain lakes like uh like Chicken Mauga, for example, that can the spawn could be so weird because they can drop the lake level five foot any day or rise it five foot where it can throw off. If they're in the spawn, they rise or drop it, it can fluctuate things. Where it sounds like it's pretty similar here in regards to any rain melt, snow melt, whatever that decides to go can fluctuate things and decide on which waves want to push up and which one don't. It's that's super interesting. And it sounds like you just have fish all over the place that way at some point.

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Yeah, I mean, there's fish everywhere. I mean, it don't. I mean, you're right at the dam, dude. You can pull up and catch an eight-pounder off the dock. Like that's and that's no joke. I mean, people, you know, there is a lot of little ones in there. I will say you can catch the snot out of the rats, but I'll tell you, just as many big ones in there as there are little ones.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

So, yeah, you drop you drop forward facing down, and you're like, I mean, it's like it's like looking at the zoo, man. It reminds me honestly of like Clear Lake. Like, Clear Lake is so frustrating because of that same thing. You look down and you're like, I'm looking at 40 pounds, like right now, with my eyeballs 100%. I've caught enough to know there's 40 pounds in front of me, and I can't get him to turn.

SPEAKER_04 33:55

And this is like every spot too, like every good point up there. There's 30 of them, got 35, 40 pounds of small mouse sitting on.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

That's absurd, dude.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

This is why, like, the whole I I kind of push back on some of the forward-facing argument because I dude if it was as easy as making a cast at everyone that we see, it would be a completely different world. Like, it is so hard to get them to eat.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

I can't I just find the I find it funny, like forward-facing sonar whole gig. Like, I mean, come on, guys. Like it's like you guys use side imaging, you guys are down imaging, 2D, and you know, it's like, what's the difference? I mean, come on, yeah, you can see them in real time, but honestly, I think it's made the fishing harder, you know? Yeah, you always sit there and be you want an honest truth and you want the honest facts about it. Forward facing sonar, you're in a disadvantage if you're using it out on some of these highland clear reservoirs. Second you put it in the water, pew, gone. So there's been a lot of times that I've been up there fishing without it. Like I just know where the fish are sitting, and it's just I turn it off, you know, because those fish are definitely feeling the ping now.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

We were just talking about that with uh shoot, who was it we were just speaking on this with? Um we were just talking about this uh a couple weeks ago, but they say that, yeah, for sure that they think the bass can feel this or feel or hear the sonar. Uh and then we were talking about how like on lanier that some guys they'll find them and then basically find them, see the distance, and then pan away and then cast. That's if that's not telling enough. Like it's I mean, if if it was as magical as some people let it on to be, then we would have had world records by now.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

100%. Like it's not, you know, and trust me, like like Adam was saying, dude, I look at I look at eight, nine pounders every day. Doesn't mean you can catch them. Dude, they're you're you're literally throwing something into their house. Do you think they, you know, you think they don't know if it's real or fake? I mean, that's the whole goal is to trick them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Right. And those are yeah. I think if you're against forward facing, you're not allowed to use berade line, you're not allowed to use power poles, no spot lock. Because you can't you can't half-ass the argument, you know what I mean? You can't you can't complain about tech and then use use most of it. Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

Same thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Well, man, I think to kind of wrap things up, I'd love to hear your take on just baits and techniques, maybe your three like guaranteed bite getters when it comes to kokony eaters. What are the three things that people can reach for when it comes to kokony, Chaser?

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Gotta have the minnow, you know, anywhere from a five to seven-inch minnow. I've been throwing the Shindo a lot. Obviously, a glide bait and some sort of big Huddleston swim bait, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Okay. So a boot tail, a glide, and a and a big minnow is what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

Yep. I mean, you can you can get fancy and stuff with the koikis and the dice, you know. I play around with that stuff too, but that's like that's really windowy type stuff, you know. Like, but if you're fishing a kokie fishery, I mean you're looking you're looking for a big one, you're looking for a big one to chase, you know. Like when a big one wants to eat, she's looking for a big meal. She ain't looking for, you know, unless time of the year, but like a big one's always gonna need a big bait. It sucks, you know. Like if you if you're about it and you want to go out and huck it all day, sometimes it's very, very, very rewarding. You gotta be patient with it.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah. Well, dude, if you don't mind me asking, on the on the middle stuff, because you mentioned you don't shake it, you know, you kind of want that bait to hover, you kind of with the trout that are dazed and confused and knocked out. Uh, what kind of jig head do you do you lean towards when throwing that?

SPEAKER_04 38:00

I pour a little uh it depends on what I'm doing, but I pour at a 16th and a 8th ounce little dinky ball head. Uh it's got a tiny little short shanked size one. Um it's basically like a crappie style jig, but it's got a steel head hook in it. And that's what I throw all my baby little minnows on. And I'll even throw my five-inch, my five-inch stuff on those little baby baby heads. Because the thing about a minnow, personally, with me, is if I'm throwing a six or seven-inch minnow, I don't care if the head's this big or the hooks this big setting up at the front, because usually your big ones are headshoting stuff, anyways. You know, to me, I want the most action out of my minnow. I want the less hook shank in my bait as possible. And there's ways that you can play with play with your minnows to make them float differently, you know. Earplugs, remember that, dude.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

That is some juice because I I totally agree. I have found and I have boxes of three and four-ought, five-ought giant big minnow hooks on small jig heads, and my hookup ratio is so much better the smaller I go. I want a big because, like you said, they're eating it from the the head, anyways. I want them to be on a small hook, and that's such a good point with the the action, additional action that you're getting by just having that little baby. And like you said, it can be a strong hook, but you want it to be small in the front of there because it gets them anyways.

SPEAKER_04 39:33

You know, and like the thing is, like people call me crazy, but it's it's like I, you know, for some smallmouth, like sometimes up here, I'm throwing four-pound braid to a five-pound leader with a seven-inch minnow. But you have to realize the size of the hook that I'm using. I don't care about the bait, you know. That's not what's driving, that's not what's driving the hook. Like, I'm just looking to get the bite. If I get the bite, then we worry about landing the fish later, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Well, yeah, and because it's not like well, a lot of shaking, you know, when you're shaking or hovering a bait, it's typically those fish are tailing it from behind, whereas these fish are you're they're they're shark weaken it, you know, they're coming from above, and that goes to like where originally I was thinking I was watching all these guys that would you know not nose, you know, go through the nose when it's roping their their baits on, but they like give like half an inch and then rope it on so that it was like your front of your minnows kind of tailed over. And it I'm sure it definitely helps with like the rolling action, but it's more so they're doing that to hide as much of the jig head and the hook as they can. When I learned that and that clicked, that changed a lot of things too. It's you know, so especially coming from up from below, like, yeah, they can't see that, at least not in the world.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

I will give one more tip about the minnow here on herring fisheries, coqueney fisheries. The depth in which they eat. Okay. If you got smallmouth, any fish sit down 45, 50 feet of water, and you think that you got to get your minnow all the way down to them to eat it, you know, and they you get it down to them and they can pop off the bottom and you're you're fishing them in 35 feet and they're not eating it. Don't think that if you throw minnow out and you work it in five to ten feet of water and they're still sitting in 45 feet, that they won't come shooting up and try to eat it. Find the zone where they eat the bait and you will find the big ones.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

I just love that, dude.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Dude, go ahead, D. I was just gonna say, I mean, that's something that I think Joe, you and I have talked about before at a ramp somewhere at a tournament or something. But like, do you relate herring fisheries similarly to to kokany fisheries?

SPEAKER_03 41:45

100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

Pelagic bait fish chasers. You gotta realize, you know, if fish is if they're sitting on the bottom, that don't mean that they're eating stuff on the bottom. That could just mean that they just want to be down there, you know. I'll be over 50 feet of water and I'll cast a minnow and I'll work it in eight feet of water, and I'll watch them just slowly come up. All of them start slowly coming up, and then one out of the group just beelines it. And like, if you get one out of the group from 45 feet, 30 feet of water to beeline it to your minnow that you're working in five feet of water, she's gonna eat it.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yo, that's the best feeling in the world.

SPEAKER_04 42:16

When you're seeing, you know, I'm just waiting for one to come out, and if she's coming out, then I start working a little bit faster towards the surface, I'll get ones to eat it off the top of the water, 44 degrees water, man. Like you gotta present the bait where they want to eat the fish, you know. If they're not eating fish on the bottom, you're not gonna get bit on the bottom.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Like, I love that because uh the one example that really like I'd always assume the fish can see better than we give them credit for see or feel, whatever it is. But like I really saw it shine when I was in Lake Fork last year, you know, and people like all the water's dirty, whatever, like you got to put it on their nose. Well, dude, I was throwing that giant full cast koiki, and I had a fish on bottom in 20. And as soon as it splashed, starts coming up. And I'm like, what? And then so that changes things. But I was given this one line about uh from my buddy that fishes up here, who's a hammer uh Great Lakes smallmouth guy. But when he was talking about the same thing where he'll have fish deep that he keeps it super high up in the water column, he's like, You gotta think about it. He's like, To your point, they might be there on bottom, but that doesn't mean that they feed on bottom. Where he's like, You might be most comfortable in your bed, but it's not far to go 20 feet to the kitchen to grab something to eat. Damn. I'm just like, all right, say less.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Like, man.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Yeah, I love it, dude. That's that's some sneaky stuff, man.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Yeah, like you just find the zones, you know, that you know where those fish want to eat. Like, you know, you'll find a zone up there sometimes where it's like 15 feet, man. It don't matter if you're over 100 feet of water, it don't matter if you're in 15 feet of water, but 15 feet of water is where they're eating. Like it's just and it just shows true. You just gotta pay attention to that stuff. That's juice.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Well, man, this has been like super informational. Appreciate you taking the time out. We'll definitely have to get you back on. But I know everything you've got going, people have if you're on have or living under a rock, this dude catches absolute mega smallmouth. Uh Puts a lot of people on their personal best. How do uh how do folks follow along with you and how can they book maybe a guide trip if they're interested?

SPEAKER_04 44:28

Yep. So we're starting back up. I'll be starting back up on the 22nd of April. Uh Stotts Fishing Adventures out of Orfino, Idaho. If you check them out, you know, um, I got the link on my Instagram as well. Um but yeah, call, get a hold of Lisa or Mel, and they'll hook you up with me. We'll go out for a good day of fishing, see if we can't get you a giant. Love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Well, dude, it is your first time on this show, and everyone's first time. We'll always like to pitch them with this as the last question. Um, but if you can pick three different people, they don't have to be fishing related if you don't want them to. They could be alive a thousand years ago, alive today. You were to invite three different people, have a beer, have a steak, pick their brain. Who are you gonna invite?

SPEAKER_04 45:11

Man, that's hard, dude. You put me on the spot with this one.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Yeah, we're horrible about prepping people for our shows.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

No, we don't ever prep. Yeah, like didn't let me think about it. Can be fishing people, though, too. It certainly can be fishing people as well. Yeah, well, one, I won't build dance for one. Let's go. Old Nance, you know, can't go wrong with him. You gotta make me think about these other two. You know, man, I don't know. I'm thinking about somebody like way in the past. Yeah, you know, okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

I I always love this question while you're while you're pondering your other two. I always love this one because you can see a little bit into the mind of your guests, because you'll have guys that go straight, like, I don't care about anything but fishing. Then you got guys that'll do like I want Kobe Bryant, or this like you can tell there's guys that are a little bit nutty that will bring up some wild characters in the past.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

Like Chris Farley, dude. And then uh you know, maybe Ben Stiller. I know that sounds weird, but dude, I dig it.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Kind of kind of those would be my my guys to we got some some actors in the boat and Bill Dance are all at dinner with you.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

The only reason why Stiller is because I loved him on heavyweights, if you've ever seen so dude, that might be one of my favorite three of that that's ever been given on this show, especially Chris Farley. I'm a giant Chris Farley fan.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Oh man, talk about an entertaining dinner, that would be insane.

unknown 46:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

Well, as long as you woke up alive, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah, yeah. We we emphasis on the uh we say have a beer. I think it might you'll need multiple if you got Chris Farley, Bill Dance, and Stiller at the table.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

Maybe back in my old days when I still used to drink, but we yeah, we don't get any idea anymore.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

So yeah, that's awesome, man. Well, seriously again, uh like Deke said, appreciate the time, dude. And uh obviously appreciate the knowledge. I know we appreciate it, and uh the listeners definitely do too. But um good luck going forward, and obviously we'll be in touch and hopefully get you back on here, dude.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Appreciate it, guys. Thank you. Catch them catch them up at Clear Lake, and we'll see you at Brownley Super 60. Bailey's also coming along to film some content and otherwise coming to Brownley, huh?

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Oh boy, we're gonna have such a fun time.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

All right, and that is gonna do it for today's show. Hopefully, you guys got some knowledge out of that because I know I definitely picked up a couple things uh from that that I'll be applying to my game and experimenting with here in the northeast anyway, or wherever my travels take me next. But uh, Deke, any any big takeaways from this one?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Man, uh appreciate Joey's openness, man. Definitely gave some juice. I think in general, just how much the coconut eaters move, like understanding how big honestly, most coconut body of bodies of water are like to think of a smallmouth traveling 50 miles in the matter of a couple of days is insane. And uh, so just understanding that and then some of the key takeaways around the minnow, man. I mean, that's that uh that that was some juice.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Absolutely, yeah. It's I'm still it it's burned into my brain that seminar from Idaho fishing game they did at the symposium where they were showing literally the trackers that they put on some of these fish that were caught supposedly by the anglers up on the north side of the lake, were tagged and released back at the ramp in the south end, returned back to where they were caught in the north end, which is like 50 miles or whatever the hell it is, and then also returned all the way back down to that ramp within two weeks. And so basically it just kind of extended their hunting ground, which is just as an angler, like if you don't nerd out on that kind of information, that is that is super sick to find out, and just how much some of these fish move. But it's what's cool though, when you look at obviously this is a different breed. This is you know, what Deacon was calling them orcas and tunas, and there's so many different cool little uh innuendos we can we can put out there, but like different fisheries change completely. Like, if you know there's been largemouth studies, I'm like you follow where like you let a largemouth go and it doesn't move more than a mile. Uh, but so it's it's when people say a bass is a bass, I think that's in general terms where like coconut eaters that a bass is a bass, I don't think applies in something like this, where it's they're completely different in how they behave anyway.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Dude, so true. I just in in awe are thinking about how how these fish attack, right? And blow through these big bait fish. I mean, it's uh it's cool. It's cool to think about and see and massive protein source to get some really, really big smallmouth and spotted bass in other coconuting bodies of water.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Yeah, that's the thing, you know, applying this to the herring stuff too can definitely be an advantage uh for some folks. But uh man, I we have brown fin tuna apparel. That's you know, this is exactly the kind of thing that we've marketed this towards. But I think we might need to make something out of orca because I think calling a big smallmouth an orca is pretty badass.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Dude, they're orcas, man. That's what they are. They're freaking big old killer wells playing with seals up there. The seals are just koking salmon.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Yeah, unless mobile, that's what I think sure. Yeah, but uh, dude, great show. Uh, anything to add for the folks before we wrap this sucker up?

SPEAKER_01 50:36

No, man. Uh, one one neat thing here we've got coming down the pipeline a little bit. Tease a little bit of what's to come with rec lending, some neat programs they are rolling out. So pay attention to some future shows on that. Uh, and then, like you're saying, we're both wearing some apparel right now. Go get you some serious angler apparel uh on our website and links below. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

We have an awesome episode coming up Wednesday with Logan Parks. He actually comes uh comes in literally from he's on Santi Cooper idling and everything. So he was on the water for that episode. So fun. So you have that to look forward to. But uh folks, appreciate you guys tuning in. If you are listening on Apple or Spotify and you haven't yet, leave us a rating and review. Actually, you know, DM us or email us too. If you do leave one with a screenshot of the review, and we'll we'll send you guys out uh some some serious angler stickers and things like that. Helps us out big time. Um, same goes for the folks that you know uh subscribe on YouTube, do the same thing. But appreciate all you guys tuning in, taking time out of your day to listen to this thing, and uh we'll see you guys on the next one.