How the Free Rig Was Born with John Murray

The Serious Angler Bass Fishing Podcast welcomes back West Coast bass fishing legend John Murray for a deep dive into the free rig, why it outperforms a jig, Texas rig, or drop shot for hookup ratio, and his exact rod, line, and hook setup for flipping grass and laydowns. John traces the origins of West Coast staples like the drop shot, football jig, and swimbait, shares rare bass fishing history including the true origin of the split shot rig and a 1990s deep-water story from Lake Castaic, and breaks down the koiki bait trend sweeping the Bassmaster Elite Series and BPT. The episode also covers scoping's rise in Tennessee, forward-facing sonar's return to 2D-style fishing, and John's advice for young anglers following in his footsteps. A must-listen for bass anglers, tournament fishing fans, and anyone into bass fishing history and technique.

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Senko: https://tinyurl.com/yp3dvv4d
Free Rig Weight: https://tinyurl.com/em8nwwp7
Gamakatsu Hook: https://tinyurl.com/yrtfmdn7

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

All right, welcome to the Sirius Angler Podcast. Everyone, as always, I'm your host, Bailey Igbrett. And on today's episode, we are joined by the man himself, Mr. John Murray, and we talk about a lot of things of baits from the West Coast, baits from the East Coast, what has translated well universally, some sneaky rigs to fish from the West Coast, and then a lot more about the free rig and its inception. John has been fishing the free rig for a long time and is a very heavy player in his arsenal. So we dive a little bit deeper into that and of course much more with some awesome stories of the bass and history, especially one that uh John has lived through, and so we talked through a lot of that. But uh we are back in the studio in Buffalo here, guys. We've been on the road for uh what seems like all summer. So apologies for the inconsistencies there. Uh so we had supposed to get episodes out this Monday, Wednesday, but instead we have two later this week for you guys, and we have more coming next week with a new CSL Western show, uh, as well as we'll have a new pot on Wednesday, and I have no crazy travels as of right now, anyway, until October. So we have some systems in place to become more consistent with that. So like when the times that Deacon and I are traveling, we can be a little bit more um consistent for you guys, and as well as when we run into these crazy times that we can make sure we get episodes out because we've had the episodes filmed, but on the back end of things, it is it is pretty difficult to get the episode shot and then edited so that it's not like a mess and it's hard to listen to or watch, uh, and make sure we have recurring shows coming out for you guys. So we had them uh filmed, so apologies on not getting them edited, published out for you guys to to listen to. But currently, right now, the Bassmaster Elites are on the St. Lawrence River. The BPT has shaken up as well. That is a wrap for the year. So the elites are going to finish this weekend. Um, the BPT is all done. Congrats to Mr. Zach Burge on Angler of the Year. And uh, we'll be back next week with a uh business with the bass boat segment, which is brought to you by our friends over at Rec Lending. I'll wait till Deacon is back and we can go and uh tap into all of that on the business side, as that is his role. And uh we will be diving into all of that, I'm sure, at length next week. So today is a is a quickie intro and outro for you guys, letting you know we're back in the crib. I really just said the crib. We're back in the studio at the crib, I guess. Um, and we are cranking out shows for you guys. If there's anything specific you want to talk about, it's kind of been like pretty western heavy. Uh that was not on purpose. Uh, but we will have some more uh folks. We have Justin Lucas coming on here soon, uh letting him do his winning tour, and then uh we will be uh talking through much more with some future guests that we have lined up, some panel shows lined up here in the coming weeks. Uh, but folks, without further ado, let's get into today's show with Mr. John Murray. All right, folks, we have Mr. John Murray. Uh, not his first time here on the show, and it's it's always nice, John, when people are willing to come back on the show because it means I haven't scared them off totally yet. So I appreciate you joining us.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Oh, I appreciate you having me. Uh talking fishing has uh been my hobby for 40 years, so it's it's a pretty good good thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Is it is the modern age podcast media interview easier than the whole magazine newspaper interviews back in the day, or was that easier back then?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Well, uh yeah, when I first started out, I'd have to drive like an hour downtown Phoenix to a radio station, and we'd you know, maybe once a month do a radio program, but you had to be in studio and it was always like late at night, it was always like nine or ten at night, and it was always live. But man, and you know, had good interaction and all that, but you were you were putting a lot of effort to get down there and do your fishing reports or doing whatever you were doing, tournament reports, so yeah, this is much easier.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Well, glad to hear that then. Glad to hear there's some some advantage to the modern age of of media, that's for sure. Yeah, uh well, man, just to kick things off, how's 2026 been for you? Now that we're what's crazy to say is already eight and a half months into it.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, it was a little sketchy for me. I had a couple decent tournaments, a couple bad tournaments, but uh the positive side is my son's uh high school career this year was really bloomed. They had a great year. I I I really committed this year and to next year to be his boat captain because it's just so much fun for me. I got one one son, he's a junior now. He's gonna be, or he's a senior actually, right now. But man, it's just it to see them put the efforts in, see all the stuff that I did, you know, 40 or 50 years ago, it's so cool. And they're so much better fishermen than I ever was at that age or even now, probably. So it it it it that's that's that part of it has really been a good year for me. And and I guess that's that's what I walk around with my head up, even though I haven't done great in tournaments, but you know, watching them do well has been really nice.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Is there kind of like a factor of like almost nostalgia for you, if you will, like seeing them kind of go through that the the ropes of tournament fishing kind of obviously a much different route nowadays than it was uh you know when you were guys were coming up, but like just seeing them kind of get the feel of going through the ropes and progressing and learning new things. Is it nostalgic for you or is it just cool to watch from afar?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

No, it's pretty nostalgic. And it's a totally, like you said, a totally different world. I my dad wasn't a tournament fisherman, he wasn't even a bass fisherman, so I didn't really get much from him. He supported me, took me to the tournaments, he did everything, but I had to learn as a co-angler in the back of some guy's boat, and most of them didn't talk to you. You had to just sort of observe. Um, so now with the with the team stuff, the high school team stuff, those two kids, the kids work together great. They have a network of friends um that they they they work with, and so yeah, it's it's it's it's like more like the professional level as far as learning. They're they're they're so far ahead of anything we were doing when I was young, that uh it's just amazing to see how fast they learn stuff.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah, and I think obviously a big credit to that is well, going back to our conversation of modern day modern day media definitely helps accelerate that learning curve. But um, if you don't mind me asking, like what kind of things did you, whether he learned on himself, but more instilled from you, did he kind of acquire to start learning things? Like, is he reading some of the books that you read, or is he consuming YouTube, Bass U? Like, what kind of things has does he consume, or is it all self-taught?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

He's pretty self-taught. He's got his own boat, he lives on the lake. So, I mean, he's out there every day. Uh, if it's not with a buddy, he's out by himself. He's learned a lot self-taught or with somebody. Me, I think it was the basics, you know. I taught him the basics of tournament fishing and stuff like that. But man, he does, you know, we go to a tournament, he rarely asked me anything. He might ask a good area. Hey, you know, like the other day we he got a top 10 out of the whole country in the Bass National Championship for high schoolers. And he just asked, hey, what's what's a good area? And I showed him a ledge that I used to always catch good fish on, but I fished it contour-wise, like, you know, you cast up more coffee. Well, he gets up there with a scope and they just take off across this flat, they find a couple stumps, find a couple hard spots, and they're fishing where I had never fished in my entire life in an area that's good, and they ended up, you know, make place in the top 10. So it's sort of, you know, I I lead them to an area, but then they they find the fish.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

That's gotta have a pretty good proud dad moment when you kind of see that kind of going against the grain, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

I I'm glued. I'm glued to the screen. I learn more watching them fish than I do on my own. And I I the funny thing is, I'll go out like the next day. I'll go out. They they got a top five at Chickamaugi. Then I'm like, I'm gonna go out like Tuesday and I'm gonna, and I caught like one little dinky bass, you know, while that you know, they caught three for 15 pounds scoping, and I caught and I'm like, I just I I I I'm learning, but I'm not as good. Or I don't maybe I don't have the the I don't know, I don't know where it is, but yeah, it is sort of funny to watch all that and then getting I'm getting excited to go fish, and then it doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

It's it's cool, it almost creates a a team dynamic of sorts, if you will. Like especially we're talking father-son. We we see it uh at the pro level, especially, you know, to with the the Jones, you know, Alton Jr.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

and obviously senior and uh Laker and yeah, there's a couple different examples. Yeah, just win in a big old tournament. I mean, yeah, it's it's incredible. You know, TJ grew up with all those kids and watch them all become awesome professionals is is pretty cool. And you know, knowing their dads and you know, all those boys are you know, they're out producing some of their dads already, so it's it's pretty cool to see.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Is that the goal for him then is to go pro?

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I don't think so. He's gonna he's in electrical class, he's gonna learn be electrician. Um, but uh, you know, I think uh fishing through college might be good, you know. I mean, that's just a an another way to keep going. But yeah, I think he's keeping his options up. He's smart in that, you know, he's gonna keep his options open. I I I told him, you know, that's the the business is not the same as it was 25 years ago when I was a kid. So yeah, he's keeping it, you know, he's gonna have something to back him up. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Well, especially nowadays, getting into electrical, he definitely sounds like a smart guy.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Yeah, that'll be good. That'll be a great trade to be in. You're you know, AI's not stealing that from you.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

No, no, that's for sure. That's total non-fishing conversation, but yeah, that's like what we're saying is the the current modern day millionaires are gonna be all trade people, and that's uh we there's one young guy that is uh he kind of follows around some folks, and uh his dad fishes our local kayak trail here. And he was telling me the other day, or he's like, he goes, I feel weird kind of going to trade, you know, going to Bosey's, which is like kind of like the the high school version of like trade school, basically. He's like, I feel weird, you know. Some of my friends are all going to college, and I'm like, No, it just means you're smarter than your friends. The smart people now go to get the trades. And it's proven to be well, my buddy, my my sister-in-law's boyfriend, he's like left his chefing job to go into getting a trade. And it's like y'all are just smart to do this now because it's like that's that's where the money's at, that's where the career, you know, the job sustainability is at, especially if you do a good job. It's it's good, man. Especially having that option. I mean, you've seen it obviously in throughout your career. It's how many people have been able to now make a life of fishing because they put in the work early and it's all trade-based.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

You look at all those new the new guys that are older come in, they've already made their money in a in some sort of business. They've you know, they've created a great background, and now they just want to fish what they want to fish. Now, the young kids, it's different still, but those older guys that come in to fishing, man, and they they like you said, they've put the work in, they've created a career, and now they're just gonna go fish. And that's what I tell them. Make a career, you know, make good money, and then fish whatever you want to fish. Don't fish because you have to fish, go fish what you want to fish. And I I think that's sort of the way I would do it at this point. Um, you know, I all I had was was guiding and backing me up, you know. So yeah, to have a trade that you can, you know, follow through, I think it's just a great, great deal for them.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Absolutely. Well, man, uh one of the things I wanted to dig in uh with you about was uh I tell people all the time the hardest part about podcasting is scheduling. And when I was we just posted a a panel show on the free rig, and I was asking a couple of my I call them my trusted advisors when it comes to the my all my bait junkies of like, hey, I want to talk about this. Who's the best people to be talking to about the technique? And your name popped up almost every single time. Uh and we couldn't get the scheduling, which is why this is perfect that we get you on here now. But I keep being told John Murray is the guy to talk to about the free rig. Uh, are they right in that? Do you throw the free rig a lot, even still?

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah, and yeah, but I gotta give credit to to Brent Ayler. Brent Ayller is the one that sort of got me going on it just because of the hookup factor, just because of the way it falls through the water. And and really, if you you've really asked me why I throw a free rig over other stuff, it's hooking factor. When I hook one on it, I don't worry about losing it. Um, you know, you throw them on a jig, you you you can lose them. You throw them on a Texas rig, you can lose them. But a free rig, man, I just don't lose bass. So that's why I really got into free rigging. If I can free rig something over a Texas or over a jig or even drop shot, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Now, if you don't mind me asking, what's the origin story of the the free rig for you guys? Like how far back does it go, and what what was kind of the inception of it? Humanbird Explore fish finders deliver an industry-leading sonar mapping and an intuitive interface that gives anglers top-tier performance without sacrificing any ease of use. Explore more with the most intuitive interface on the water, making it the easiest fish finder to see clear on the water, fish smarter, and feel more confident while you're on the water. Every explore unit comes loaded with Lake Master and Coastmaster mapping, helping you break down water wherever you fish. From the 9-inch, 10-inch, and 12-inch, always remember there's more to explore. Now back to the show.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

I learned it probably, I think it was like almost 10 years ago, probably seven or eight, 10 years ago. I mean, time flies anymore, but a young a young guy that that did welly well on the FLW tour, Wade Strelek, um, his dad, Johnny Strelek, they're from San Diego. Um, they really the ones, and and and they got it from probably a Japanese, what they probably got, but I don't know. But they were the ones that always said, Man, have you ever tried to free rig again? I'm like, no. And they just really got me interested in it. Now, Ayler's the one that really really pursued it and sort of, you know, taught uh, you know, he used to, you know, I was roommates with him for five, six years. So, you know, I got to see it firsthand from Brent, but just showing me the benefits of it, uh, especially if everyone's throwing a certain way, that that free rig is just comes through there as a total, just a little bit different, and it and it and it catches them. So I don't, I I don't have the true origins. I know the guys in the west have been throwing it longer than the guys out here, but I'm sure like everything else, maybe a Japanese fisherman decided, you know, figured it out. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah. Well, I guess with that, um, what's kind of like if you were to walk through your your setup for it when it comes to obviously the one thing that we talked about on this this panel show was the the cool thing about the free rig is you can go so many different directions with it. Any way you want to go, you can go as big as you want, as finesse as you want, and you can there's so many different baits that work great with it. But if you were kind of given like your your nine times out of ten, what's your setup and bait of choice going to be when it comes to the free rig?

SPEAKER_01 15:11

My bait, my my basic setup is the the a tungsten. Let me see there, the tungsten little cylinder weight, anywhere from uh you know, quarter uh 316 to 38s, depending how deep it is. But I like the little tungsten weight, the cylinder's child weight. This is my key right here is the the offset worm hook with the O'Shaughnessy bin. So uh Aaron Martin's, you know, that's his deal, the O'Shaughnessy bin as opposed to the round bend. It does have the worm keeper and stuff. But you know, that O'Shaughnessy bin, man, when I get that in a fish, I don't ever lose them when I peg that thing. So that hook, whatever size, you know, 90, you know, probably 90% of the fish I've ever caught, I'm using the old Yamamoto Senko as the bait. Now, just a you know, five or six-inch bait. Um, that's that's usually where I start. Um, obviously, you you know, you pick up, you know, the anything on your deck and do the same thing. But uh, I you know that that's the the Senko's such a good fish catcher. Um, I think it helps when this weight, when you pitch it out there and it hits the bottom early and that that Senko has that fall still a little bit. That's in my mind, you know, catches some a little more. Um you're pulling it to the weight pretty quickly, like a Texas rig, you know, obviously, but you can snap it up off the bottom. And if you watch it in a pool, when you snap it up off the bottom, that weight does shoot back down, and that bait does a little more action than just a straight Texas rig. Um, but yeah, I think you know, that's my basics. And then I'll go up or down from there based on uh you know what I'm fishing. And I right now it I I it replaces a jig a lot for me, like you know, flipping a jig in grass or something like that. Um, it goes through the grass easy, and when you hook them, you get them out of there. So that that's that's my you know my starting place with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, I've heard I've heard a couple guys that are kind of gravitating towards the braid to leader. Uh, a lot of guys, even include myself, straight fluoro still. What kind of line choice? And I guess what rod would you lean to, especially when you're talking about how hookup ratio is so good with the free rig? What do you lean towards in that?

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, and I'm I'm a I'm a straight fluorocarbon guy. Um, I that's a fairly light hook, you know. I don't need a braid to get that hook set with that uh you know offset worm hook. So I'm using straight fluorocarbon, usually 20. I use gamma fluorocarbon, so I can get away with 16, you know, it's not gonna break. But yeah, 16 to 20 gamma. And then I'm gonna use a 7-7 heavy action, not an extra heavy, but heavy action Phoenix feather. So a seven, seven, a little uh a stout rod, but I'm casting it. I'm not flipping it, I'm not, you know. I I want that power when I especially if I'm making long casts. Sometimes you're you're fishing in five feet of water. You don't want that thing close to the boat, you want to bomb it out there a little bit, right? So, yeah, I'm I'm using a longer rod, got a little bit of tip. I don't want an extra heavy, but I do want a heavy action and you know, heavy line.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

I like that. And I and and for learning sake, when you were talking about how replacing a jig and and flipping, say you're flipping lay downs instead of a jig, how would you change your rod then to accommodate for that?

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Laydowns, you would probably want to maybe beefy up the hook, you know, that's probably what I would do first. Um, instead of just a normal wire, maybe a flipping wire, maybe a little heavier hook. Um, because you do have to get them out of those, you know, especially the heavier lay downs. But other than that, I I'm not I'm not changing much off that. I'd use the 20-pound line. Um, you know, if you're on, I guess down in Texas, and then you know, all the fish were you catch a 12-pounder, maybe you'd worry about that. But you know, most tournament conditions, I'm not varying from 16 or 20-pound line on that.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah. So some an interesting conversation that we had recently on the show was how it seemed to be, you know, say even five to ten plus years ago, it's it seemed like these newer, especially if more finesse techniques would start on the west coast and work their way east, where now it almost seemed like they're skipping the west coast and going straight to the east coast. Do you do you agree with that? And if so, why do you think that might be?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Well, the the thing that skipped the West Coast is the scoping. That that just basically bypassed the West Coast and started in wherever it started, but you know, I'm I'm right here in East Tennessee, and you know, the best scopers, some of the best scopers in the world, the Bank Shaws and all these kids, they come, you know, the the nut brothers, you know, these kids all come from Tennessee and TBA, and they are so far ahead of anybody on the West Coast scoping-wise. Now, some of the techniques, yeah, the Koiki, you know, that was a that was a you know, a guy, you know, probably Bank Shaw, one of these kind of guys that that figured out one of the Japanese. I know some of the Japanese guys were using it way before anybody else, but yeah, they're they're going straight to the Bassmaster Tour, the BPT, or the tackle warehouse. And yeah, it's not starting in the West. Um, you know, a lot of those Japanese guys used to start fishing on the West Coast because we had big tournaments, and then we'd get to know them and we'd learn techniques and we'd bring them over, but now they come straight to the big tours and and and they they keep them secret pretty good. I think that Koiki, man, those guys had that for quite a few years before anybody knew. So, but you know, there's probably another some other bait or technique out there right now that guys are working on that we haven't heard about yet.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yeah, what was crazy to learn was I was talking to some some random guy in the DMs about it. Um, and I'm like, Yeah, it's it's crazy because you know it seems like it only came on the scene, you know, the past couple years, and I feel like it's a relatively new bait. And the guy corrected me, he's like, No, this has been out since like 2005 or something crazy.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Been around, I've seen them.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Holy smokes!

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, they just no one knew, no one knew, but obviously someone figured it out. Yeah, here's the funny story 200 maybe four, maybe five. I drew one of the famous, I took one of the most famous Japanese guys out. He was with uh uh a big swim bait company in Japan, and he was filming on Lake Mead for we were on a practice and for US Open. And at the end of the day, he brought out a he called it a tarantula. It was a big black ball with with eight legs around it. And he goes, I'm gonna go catch him on a tranchula. You got a place I can do that? So I took him down to the wash, some dingy water, and he caught a three pounder like immediately. He just had a hook in it and he just let it float along the walls and Did I think anything about it? No, I thought that was just dumb, you know. And but he had a he called it a tarantula, but it was a ball with eight legs around it and sort of fluttered down with you know a little hook in it, and yeah, he caught him on it. So I I probably should have paid attention right then and there and you know, thought about it, but I didn't. I just ah it's just Japanese, you know, they do crazy stuff with their baits. But yeah, I've seen it, you know, that that idea for quite a few years.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Yeah, it seems to be it seems to be obviously all the trend now. Uh are you throwing the koiki much now? Have you hopped on the trend?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, I I have, and and and yeah, it's crazy. I I've I have not mastered the hooking of it. I've I've had some heartbreaks with the hooking of it, but um, you know, which hook to use, which hook worked under this condition, which hook, how do you weight it to make sure? So I've been working on that still, but my son seems to have got it figured out. He, you know, all those big fish he caught at Kentucky Lake, and all the top finishers, all those kids were throwing goikis.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

You need gear that works as hard as you do. That's why Amped Outdoors is the official power solution of a serious angler podcast. From unmatched, battery nerd customer service to performance that thrives in extreme winter cold or summer heat keeps you on the water longer. Click the link in the show notes to get you powered up with Amped Outdoors. Now back to the show. Yeah, it's just it's it's one of those things now, kind of similar to like with scope, where we're like, oh, there's no way it works in shallow fisheries. And then we're wrong, it works in shallow fisheries. It's like the same thing now. We're like, ah, no way a koike plays in this turb. Someone finds a bite where they're gonna eat the koike, and it's just like we're learning more of where is it gonna get, you know, used.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

I mean, you know, the the the full size is still everybody's go-to, but I mean all the different sizes, I think that's gonna be the next a wave, you know, whether you you know what what they're gonna do with all that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah, I I've been hearing rumblings of a lot of people in places we never thought, you know, in Big Fish Land that they're gravitating towards the th the 17, the smaller ones. And yeah, I'm sure in the next couple weeks on the Elite Series side, we're gonna see that probably dominated in smallmouth territory. And it's uh I was surprised I didn't see it much on the BPT. Uh maybe that's just a format thing. I don't, I don't know, but uh I was surprised it didn't play much uh on Lake Erie. But it's it's so cool from the outside in. And it's a one thing I can't grasp is the people that hate on the bait side where it's like, why are why are we mad about a bait that's like almost like a cheat code to to catch these fish? But it's like watching the progression of all this come and wondering what's next, because you always know there's something next. As much as we think that we're done, yeah, something next is gonna happen. Uh but it's but yeah, just the the progression of watching all come and go BPT, not yeah, not using it.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

BP, you know, when Cole Floyd the other day was fishing those grabs, I'm like, man, throw a koiki in there. Go ahead. And he and he even addressed it. People say I should throw a koiki in there, but I don't know, he just felt like it wasn't fast enough or what. But yeah, that's that's sort of you know, maybe every fish counts, you know, a fast bait like a chatterbait or something is is the way to go. But yeah, it's funny that you know, with a five fish limit, guys throw koikis all day, but uh every fish count, they they don't don't seem to throw it in there as much.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

No, it's it's very interesting, and obviously we'll probably see how that evolves as we go forward, too. But um, but very, very intriguing. Um, what do you think has been obviously talking the free rig, obviously coming from the west coast, what do you think have been some of the the best baits that are still prevalent today that stem from the West Coasts? What would you say is like a top three? You know, obviously I'm sure like a drop shot being one, but yeah, drop shot one with a robo worm.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

I mean, that's uh when I first moved to Tennessee 10 years ago, there's a few guys that would throw it, but I mean you you go, everybody's got a you know, a pink robo worm or a margarita mutilated robo worm on. Um, and you know, that is that is that is 101 Aaron Martin's drop shotting robo worms, you know, that's it. That's the number one. You know, you could go with the the you know, like the spider jig or the you know, this the double tailed jig, you know, that's still a predominant pattern. A lot of them put double tails on the back of, you know, uh different kinds of jig, you know, football jigs. I guess football jigs, you know, we've I I've always said Arizona invented the football jig because when I was a kid, that's all we threw was one ounce, three-quarter ounce football jigs. And now they've they're across the country. So uh yeah, Arizona was pretty much the you know, that would be number two. And then, you know, the swim bait obviously is the other one that's stood the test of time, whether it's big, little, whatever, you know, Byron and some of the guys ski that popularizes the swim bait, you know, that that's that'll always be a player everywhere in the country, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah, and that's another one that certainly exploded. Um, you know, came out of the garage and now it's mainstream to the point where we were just on the the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania, which is like a a typical kayakslash wading fishery that we're throwing four to seven inch glide baits for these river smallmouths, which is crazy. And you're you're looking at, I mean, I just walked into a tackle shop and they literally have the wall of swim baits, this giant wall, and it was it was separated from size. So you watch all these 12-10 inches going all the way down to four inches, and it's just it's crazy to see where that's transpired to. And uh it it it's it's cool from that regard. And I in my limited time out west, I still think there's stuff that isn't adopted just yet out east uh that people are still doing on the west coast. Um but one thing I'll I'll I'll ask you is talking about like an old school technique, is there something that you throw that still works that didn't get the popularity or didn't get as adopted as you think it might have been or should be?

SPEAKER_01 28:09

You know, I the one the one technique that I throw a lot that you know you could call it whatever, but a split shotting. So instead of a Carolina rig, you know, you downsize your line, you downsize your weight, you downsize your bait. And I will always have that on, especially if I'm you know around spawning small mouse or largemouse, uh a split shot rig with a little reaper. Um, you know, that that's always a rig that I'll pull out that most guys go, What you know, what are you doing? You know, why aren't you throwing a drop shot? Why aren't you throwing a cinco? Why aren't you throwing a wacky worm? Why aren't you throwing a Carolina rig? Because the split shot, certain conditions just catches them. So that's the one I sort of keep in my back pocket that I'll always have rigged throughout the year. And it's not going to catch it, you know, I'm not gonna win a tournament on it or anything, but I might catch a couple fish that I wouldn't have caught on that thing.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah. You mentioned the the little reaper. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

So a little reaper, uh I didn't bring any, but a little um a reaper is a a little plastic bait that got really hot in the late 80s on Lake Mead. Um, it's a hand pour, it looks like a little leaf. It's flat with a little ridge on it, and they make them in sizes from one inch all the way to, you know, we used to use a 10 or 12 inch reaper in in the big water lakes in Arizona and stuff, but it it it it it looks like a leaf, actually, and but it's great behind a drop shot. It's just a very subtle bait. Some of the biggest bass I've ever caught, I've caught on little tiny reapers. And it was a Southern California bait, San Diego bait that sort of migrated around. And and I I know uh Spencer Shuffield's dad, Ron, got on it in Arkansas and started catching them on. We they caught them a lot of places. It sort of was born at a bassmaster tournament Lake Havasu back in the day, so it's just a good little subtle bait, it doesn't do much, just sort of glides. But uh yeah, I that's that's one of my favorite split shot and a little reaper is is is money technique for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

I love that you mentioned the split shot rig because just recently we're we're downsizing a bunch of stuff here at home, and I was going and getting I I got rid of a pallet of tackle. I went and gave it away to a bunch of the local kids here, and I was going through some stuff. I'm like, I won't need this, won't need that. I might keep that, you never know. And I came across this little box of split shots that I had. I'm like, I'll keep that just in case, just for the split shot rig. Because I don't I don't really ever throw it, but like one thing, one of the few things my dad would throw growing up with a little trick worm on the back. And just like maybe I should throw that again. So I kept the I kept the split shots just for that. And it's funny how that's come full circle now, but uh I'll throw it this weekend just for you, John. I'll tie on the split shot. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Try it because you'll never know with that little rig. And try different baits. You can try the little foot finesse baits or the bigger trickworm-sized baits, but yeah, it's it's just a different, different like, different look. And you know, sometimes I'll just I can't catch them on the drop shot, you know, and I can catch them on that split shot still.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Yeah, I love that. Where do you think this is totally a random question? But learning about the more of the history of bass fishing and learning about stuff that like that where it's not mainstream and people aren't talking about it right now, where's a good place for somebody to go learn about stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

That's a good question, you know. I'm I'm always feel like I'm a trev treasure trove of information that people have never heard of, you know, and and even you know, like Skeet and Brent, when I stayed with them, they're like, How do you know all this? Because I go, because I've been fishing since the you know the late 70s, you know, I've seen all this stuff, I lived all this stuff, and I have a good memory for fishing stuff. I might forget what to get at the store today, but I can remember, you know, a fish caught 30 years ago. But yeah, my my first experience with a with a split shot was I I'd done it forever, but there was a guy named Dick Trass that lived down in Southern California. He's the one that's credited for inventing the split shot, not a Japanese fisher, not the guy in San Diego or LA area. And I was fishing a big turma on Lake Casitas or Kastec. I was on Castaic right when they caught the the world record. So this is early 90s, and I'm out 90 feet of water with a little, probably three sixteenth ounce split shot and a little worm that was like three inches long, trying to catch some 12 and 13-inch keepers because it was horrible fishing. And I caught like a 12 and a half incher. I'm all excited. Well, that dick trash pulled outside of me on that same reef in in I was in 90. He pulled into 125 and caught a four-pounder. And he goes, You're fishing too shallow. And we're using three sixteenths with six-pound line, trying to just get a bite. So, you know, that was my first experience with yeah, these things work whatever depth. I mean, because I I used to switch shot in two feet of water, and here we are in 125 using it. So, yeah, there those some of those stories you just I don't know where you'd hear them, you know. I I lived them, but uh yeah, getting that information would be sort of hard to get, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yeah, that might be something that'll help we'll have to call Ken Duke on and start having him document all this stuff and and make a little encyclopedia. Yeah, he is definitely the industry's encyclopedia. I've I've called him that for many years now.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Um here recite your own stats to you, and you're like, Really? I did that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

No research needed either.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

No, just tell you what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Very impressive. Uh real quick on that, 120 feet. Is that fishing it suspended? Or are you letting that go down all the time?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

That's all bottom fishing. I want to turn on Lake McClure in 125 feet. Now they're all spotted bass, and they were eating uh kokinee salmon, and the salmon were in in the bottom of these drains in 125 feet. And so I want a regional of you know, one of the uh BFL, but not they were red man back then, in 125 feet of water. And now all spots, because if I would have been largemouths, I'd have killed every one of them. The spots actually lived fine, you know, out of that deal. Um, but yeah, I've uh out west there's a lot of lakes. Castake is one that has a lot of water come in, not in a river, they pump it in. Lake Pleasant in Arizona, they pump the water in at the bottom. So the the water quality in a hundred feet of water is the same as two feet of water. So there's some lakes out there that you you you have to be aware. Um, you know, that's why I I've made my name fishing deep. I'd try to find the deepest fish anybody could catch. And uh Aaron was a lot the same way. He just because they were a little bigger. You know, the deeper you went back then, you they were just bigger fish, and so you might not get many bites, but they'd be bigger. Yeah, and so uh yeah, those, you know, I would that was my claim to fame, is I just we were using 2D sonar, no mapping, and just looking, looking, looking for those deeper, deeper schools.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

That's wicked. Well, we've seen a little bit of as we speak, the Champlain event for the elites is going on, and then all the talk today has been guys catching them on 2D, and it's yes, they keep talking about how yeah, it seems very old school now, and it's just like I up until now, I don't think I've heard 2D talked about since pre-forward facing.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

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SPEAKER_01 35:52

Right. And and it was the same way at um when they were at Erie last week. Guys were saying you know, those fish should follow them to the boat on the non-scope periods and sit under the boat at the on the 2D, and which is famous for St. Clair and Erie and all those places, and then just drop down and catch them. And you know, that's how we used to fish. I mean, I grew up fishing that way, 2D, just looking around, casting a fish or under the boat, you know, or going over them and come, you know, throwing back over them. But yeah, you couldn't. It was that was the only way we could find them.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

That's so stinging cool, dude. Uh well, John, it's I mean, we just need to keep getting you a thing on the show because we learned something new and learn something new from the past as well. Every single time we get you on here, man. It's it's awesome. I I'm nerding out. Like if it were up to me, I'd keep you on here for hours on end. But I won't I don't want to do that to you. That's torture. Uh, but I I do want to say I really I do really appreciate the time. And the the last question I have, and we'll let you go here, is if you could pick one guy that's out on tour right now that you're would act as a mentor for your son, uh, besides yourself, of course, that would you know to learn from, especially like on the modern day and pro fishing, who who would be your first pick? Who would be your draft?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

That that that's just super simple for me because I I've always said, you know, when I grow up, I want to be like this guy, but it's Brandon Palinik. Um, just just the quality of human he is, the kind of fisherman he is, the way he's conducted business, the way he understands the industry. He's you know, the entire package. And uh, you know, he's always been great to my son. I mean, my son grew up around him, and yeah, I would say, yeah, you go hang out with Brandon for a week and come back and talk to me. You'll you'll you'll learn more than anybody would ever learn.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

We we just did a show with Matthew Brandon, who's out there uh on the West Coast, and that was one of his three. He was his first time on the show, so we asked him the whole three to dinner question, and he said Brandon was one of his. And we both every time we get somebody that talks about him, it's uh one he's one of, if not one, like one of, in my opinion, the best when it comes to the mindset and strategy of the game right now. Yes, just thinks on a totally different planet than a lot of us do. And you you you nailed it with the character. There's very few people in our industry that I've never heard an ounce of bad, bad speak whatsoever about you, yourself included. Uh and he is one of those. I've never heard a single negative, even swaying towards negative towards towards Brandon. That's a that's a great role model.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Well, the funny thing, I my first experience with him is I was the negative. Guys were bitching out in Lake Havasu, all the western when he was just a kid. This kid's got to be cheating, he's winning everything. Oh my god, he's he's he there's no way he can be that good. You know, they did all the stuff like they used to do with Aaron Martins. And I went up to Brandon when I finally met him. I go, dude, can I talk to you? And we just talked, and I'm like, this kid's just kicking everybody's ass. I mean, that's all it is, it's not. And that was just pure jealousy, and he's laughing, he's laughing, and he goes, Well, yeah, that's right. They want to ban me, they want to because I'm winning. And I go, exactly. But yeah, that that was the only time I ever heard bad stuff, and it was they had no idea who he was. Once they got to meet him and know him, they're like, I bet they felt stupid, but yeah, right then that's how I met Brandon.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

So, one, that's awesome. That's a really cool story. Uh, two, it's kind of full circle nowadays because it seems like that's just always been a thing. Is these young guys had any success? They're like, ah, you must be cheating.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Gotta be cheating. You're doing something wrong, they're bad, you know. Like, I I told my son they they gave him, he won a bunch of tournaments here, and they're giving him crap. And I go, dude, if they're not talking about you and wanting to ban you, then you're not catching them. So, you know, I've been banned from three or four different circuits over my career. I go, I'm fine with it, you know. I knew I was doing the right thing, but yeah, you you you catch them, they're gonna get a little mad at you. So that's that's exactly what it was with Brandon when I first met him. When he was, I mean, he was like 16 or 7. He was a kid and he was fishing western stuff only back then.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah, that's awesome, man. Uh love that John. Appreciate the the conversation as always, and looking forward to our next one. And uh, man, it's always always something new, knowledge-wise. I we always try to get two to three clips out of every show that we can post on social that are awesome nuggets. And I feel like every time we get you on here, there's like 12 that we can get from them. So uh appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

I'll come back anytime. We'll talk fishing. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Uh thank you, John. We'll be talking to you soon. All right, guys, that is gonna wrap it up for today's show. Appreciate you taking time out of your day to listen to the podcast, listen to some juice given up by Mr. John Murray. Always a pleasure to have him on the show. Always share some awesome stories of back in the day with us and his upbringing in the industry and professional bass fish. Professional bass fishing. Holy smokes, you can tell I'm rusty. Uh, but awesome stuff, and we will be back next week with a CRC Western show to come on Monday, and we'll have a new show for you guys on Wednesday. Like I said, we have some panel shows in the works that we're just trying to get the final touches on, and then we'll be ripping those here in the coming weeks, as well as we have Mr. Justin Lucas joining us and some more guests to come. But uh the seasons for the professional bass fishing, I cannot speak today, guys. Um, it's coming to an end. Uh the fall is heating up, the bass bite is heating up. Uh my hunters, y'all are probably getting excited and getting ready for that. Uh, we'll have much more to come here soon. But as always, appreciate you guys for tuning in, and we'll see y'all on the next one.