#23 Web3 Marketing, Simplified with Justin CEO of Safary

Major Themes:

• Founder's Journey and Community Building: Justin, the co-founder of Safary, shared his journey from entering the crypto space in November 2021 to establishing Safary. Initially aiming to develop a DAO tool, they pivoted to focus on building a community of Web3 growth leaders. This community-first approach led to the realization of the need for better tools to serve the Web3 growth industry, culminating in the creation of an attribution tool akin to "Google Analytics for Web3."
• Challenges and Opportunities in Web3 Growth: Safary addresses critical gaps in Web3 marketing by providing insights into which marketing channels drive tangible results. This attribution tool helps Web3 companies measure the effectiveness of their marketing strategies by linking off-chain activities with on-chain outcomes, a crucial advancement given the complexities of tracking conversions in the decentralized web.
• Safary's Evolution: Starting as a community, Safary evolved into a research hub before developing its own Web3 analytics tool. This progression highlights the importance of understanding community needs and leveraging insights to build practical solutions. Justin's journey underscores the value of adaptability and direct engagement with your target audience to refine and develop relevant products.
• Community-Led Growth: Justin emphasized the significance of building small, intimate communities where real connections are fostered. He shared insights on scaling communities slowly to maintain quality interactions and the importance of founder involvement in community engagement. Safary's approach to community building, focusing on relationships and personal connections, serves as a model for Web3 projects aiming to cultivate a dedicated user base.
• Fundraising Insights: Although the conversation didn't delve deeply into Safary's fundraising journey, it was hinted that Safary successfully navigated raising capital in a challenging bear market by initially gathering support from angel investors. This strategy demonstrated the power of showcasing a strong network and unique market insights to secure significant VC backing.

Memorable Quotes:

• "We built a community first and then evolved into doing research and building tools for the Web3 growth industry." - Justin
• "Community building in Web3 is about fostering real connections and engagement, not just amassing large numbers." - Justin
• "Our attribution tool is like Google Analytics for Web3, bridging the gap between off-chain marketing activities and on-chain results." - Justin

Actionable Takeaways:

• For Web3 Founders: Consider adopting a community-first approach to understand your audience deeply and identify the tools and solutions they need. Engage directly with your community members to build lasting relationships and gather valuable insights that can guide your product development.
• For Marketing Professionals: Explore and leverage analytics tools designed for the Web3 ecosystem, like Safary's attribution platform, to optimize your marketing strategies and ensure your efforts contribute to tangible outcomes.

Safary's journey from a community initiative to a pioneering Web3 analytics platform underscores the importance of listening to your audience, iterating based on feedback, and the transformative power of community-led growth in the decentralized space.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-vogel/
https://twitter.com/Safaryclub

Follow us on Twitter - https://twitter.com/GamingStartUp_

Transcript

NoAutopilot: 0:00

Hey, this is Noah Autopilot, founder of the Gaming Startup Collective and host. Of the token takeover podcast. In today's episode, we're sharing a conversation with Justin, founder of Safari, one of the best marketing user acquisition and intelligence analytics platforms in all of web three. We're going to talk about his founder journey, how they were able to successfully raise their VC round in the deep bear market and much, much more. Enough of me talking. Let's go ahead. Let's jump into the content. Hey, what's up, Colin? Hope you're doing well. We should have, uh, Justin joining us here any moment. Waiting room. There he is. All right. It looks like he's already set up as a member. So cool. Easy. Easy peasy. All right. Let me, uh, let me open the chat here. What's up, sweaty Yeti? Welcome, welcome. Justin. There he is. The myth, the legend. How you doing, Justin? See ya, let's uh, let's invite you to speak. I probably shouldn't ask you a question if you can't talk. That was, that was a mistake. Hold on, now I gotta fix my settings, voice. Hey, say something now for me. Yeah, me? Yeah. How's it going, man? I haven't done a Discord, you know, Discord call like this in a minute. We used to have our whole community on Discord for, probably the first year I have. So I'm very used to this format, but it's been a minute. Hey, hey, hey, we're about to, we're about to polish it up, man. Get you, uh, get you back used to it. How much time are you spending in Discord these days with the community? I haven't been in the Discord community in a long time. That's super interesting, man. I guess, uh, so are you guys out of Telegram mostly then? Yeah, we do Telegram and then we also, uh, do GatherTown for our calls. I don't even know GatherTown. I need to look into that. It's not cheap, so maybe not the best for a free community. Probably good to stay in Discord. However, it's probably like the perfect place for your community. Basically like video call, but like you're in like a gaming environment. All right, I'll add that you get to create like a little little world that you get to create. So ours is obviously like very jungle themed. So is it kind of like kind of like spatial almost then? Yeah, except instead of like being like a metaverse, it's like a 2D like Pokemon style. Where you have a little avatar, it's flat, you're running around doing things, yeah. Dude, that's sick. Yeah, no, uh, no, obviously you can say no, but maybe next time you host a call, like, just let me be, like, hanging out behind a tree or something. Just to see how the platform works. Yeah, exactly. For sure. Hey, what's up, JRP? Welcome, welcome, welcome. Justin, we have you booked for 30 minutes. So I want to be respectful of your time. I know you're a busy person. For the folks. Who don't know who you are, maybe can we just start with a quick introduction? For sure. So I'm Justin. I'm co founder of Safari. Um, Safari started as a community, a community of Web3 growth leaders and some early stage founders as well. And over time we evolved into doing a lot of research on our space, which is the Web3 growth industry. So thinking about other companies that are also trying to serve And grow web three companies. And then we ended up building a tool ourselves. We built a web three attribution or the attribution tool, which is basically like Google analytics for web three, helping you figure out what your marketing channels are actually driving results, but it's been quite the journey over time, which is something I was chatting with the autopilot about quite a bit in the last, just a community. To tinkering with tools and to research, to fundraising, and then to actually growing a B2B platform. So happy to be here and share more about whatever is interesting to you all. And what timeframe was all this happening? Wasn't this like the last year and a half or something? Yeah. So we kicked off the community in February 2022, which. I'd say was the start of the bear market. It should have the very beginning though. Obviously I was a first time founder, got into crypto in November, 2021, which was obviously the peak. So I didn't know that was the start of the bear market. Uh, when I, uh, built the community, so yeah, built the community throughout 2022 started fundraising a day before FTX exploded that's November, 2022. Great timing. Imagine, then we closed our rounds in March, 2023, uh, which was right as SVD exploded. So that also had some, some fun snags for us. And then lost our platform in August, uh, scaled it in the beta to 75 teams and just launched the second version. So that's where we're at. Crazy. Alright, so, so folks, you all know how this goes. Also. What's up Smasher? Thanks for joining. So if you have questions, comments, concerns, feel free to type'em out on the chat. You can also call out to the stage, right? This is supposed to be like a laid back conversation between, between founders. So just, I guess, you know, one of the things that really stood out to me was your, your focus on community first. Can you just kinda walk us through like what led you down that path instead of like, locking yourself in a room and like. Tinkering with a product for like three months or something. Yeah. Can you kind of just walk us through your, your intention on, on building a community first for, for Safari? Yeah, I think that we have, you know, kind of a unique story. There are two elements to this. One is that. At the time, November, 2021, DAO tools and communities were all the range. And so we originally thought that we're going to build a DAO tool. And so we started going around. It's like, uh, do you guys want to use our tool that we built? And they were like, oh, well, who else is using it? We're like, uh, you're going to be the first. And they're like, okay, here's the door. Goodbye. Right. And then, so then after that, we had this kind of like idea. We were like, oh, well, cause at the time I had an anonymous personality, Jakey. Which was like, well, like Twitter, because I'd never used Twitter before entering Web3. Um, like I didn't have a, I didn't have like a personal brand there. I had been writing and slowly getting a very small following from scratch there. So I was like, oh, well, we could have Justin founder of this DAO tool with my co founder Elliot. But then we can have Jakey, who's the founder of this community. That'll be the first community that uses our DAO tool. And then we can go to all these people and say, Oh, well, so far he uses our DAO tool, but so far he's legit and cool. And so that was sort of like a, it was like an early growth hack, basically, for like, how are we going to grow this DAO tool? But what we realized was as soon as we started using the DAO tool that we built within Unity, we were like, well, one, this tool fucking sucks. We don't want to use our own tool. And two, something magical was starting to happen in Safari, where we were like, well, we have this tool, it sucks. And we have this community that's awesome. All these people want to be in this community and all of them are super awesome and legit. And we're just random nobodies. So maybe we should, since we seem to have like caught lightning in a bottle, maybe we should ditch the tool, go all in on the community and see where that takes us. And we're still sort of on that journey of discovering what are all the benefits of community and what exactly that means. And today, which has been a fun adventure. Yeah, that's a little bit about how we got started, but I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention that I had some community led growth experience before this back in web two, I worked for a company that was helping people. It was a mock interview platform for SoftRAM shares to practice interviews to get a job. And we like on the side built a discord community of like 10, 000 developers that were like doing things, helping each other. It was a really, really interesting and special to see that come together. And so. Some community led growth experience under my belt in a, in a web two context from very different times, that was 2018. It all came back full circle in crypto and obviously, you know, it's discovered communities were super hot in 2021. Hey, are you a builder looking for a grant to build your ideal web three gaming startup? If so, you should take a look at the Arbitrum grant program with grants up to 25, 000 and a specific focus on supporting early stage indie game devs. It could be the perfect fit link is in the description, make sure to check it out. Now back to the podcast. Okay. So let's, let's kind of pause on that for a second. So you build a community of, of 10, 000 devs. It sounds like you have just a ridiculous amount of expertise when it comes to community led growth, all the founders here. You know, the vast majority of them are bootstrapped, so very early stage. And they too, right, are looking to kind of build like their very first fans of their games. So I guess any mistakes you've made that you think they can learn from, or any best practices that you've used routinely that you think would be worthwhile for them to know. Yeah, definitely. I mean, You know, we were also, I guess this is also relevant to share, right? As we were a bootstrap team ourselves for the first year and a half of our journey. So it was, it was not easy. And that's why Discord is such a great platform. It's totally free to do these things. The biggest advice though, that I gave a lot of people then, which maybe is a little different now. I think it's still, still the case is back in 2021, people were trying to create of like a hundred thousand people. But, you know, obviously now, you know, like hindsight is 2020. Like that was a bunch of like BS. Like most of those people weren't real people or they like were real people that, you know, hopped into the discord and then never like go ahead again. And so when we were building our community at that time, we were thinking. This is kind of madness. Communities are not communities unless one, people like know each other, like actually know each other. I don't mean like you have to like be best friends in person and know each other, but like you would have had a conversation like at least one time, uh, with somebody. And then the second thought was like, you know, communities are like naturally more intimate. Like a hundred thousand person discord is not a community. A community is really, you know, a much smaller. And so, We started Safari out as a group of 40. I think that 40 is a good number. Also will make you less stressed when you're starting this, this group of like your first super fans, right? Like if you're trying to create a community of a thousand, 10, 000 out of the box, like that's really hard and stressful. And it'll be really hard for you to figure out like who are those actual like super fans and champions within that community. Because you're like trying to find those people in like a literal haystack that you created for yourself. But from a group of 40, You can find those people really easily, create the connections, the bonds that are initially forming in your community, find people who might have natural talent and move from there. And if it's a complete disaster in your first 40, then you can start again, right? You can start from scratch without having put in a whole lot of work. So that's definitely what I would recommend. And that's been, I think, still a strong thing from our community over time is that we have scaled very, very slowly. So as I mentioned, we're two years in, we have around 300 people in our community today. So it's a very different style of community, but I think for those of you at gaming, you know, start with 40 people that are playing your game, right? 10 people, 15 people, a really small amount of people, just you at, you know, Having you and meeting you as like the game developers, I think it's like super key and that's something that me as a growth leader and a founder, it's very different at Web3. Like when I was doing growth in my last company in Web2, I almost never talked to users like one on one. Like the thought of like having a relationship with the user was like not something that was really like thought about. Uh, to be perfectly honest with you, uh, for how those companies are structured. But I have met every single person as far as community. That's like literally hundreds of people. It's just a very different game. People are looking for that connection from a founder or a person on your team. I think that, yeah, it's all about relationship building. You should think about it as relationship building. One person at a time more than anything else. One thing I've seen Justin do And you have a thread, uh, that you kind of wrote up on, just some of your ideas around community growth. But one thing in particular I thought really stood out was you offer, or you try and do a one on one meeting with, with every new person who joins. Like I imagine that's just a tremendous lift. It also kind of builds those personal bonds. Not as consistent as I wish I were with that. I've stolen that from you, Justin. I have like a little account link that, uh, that pops up in the server every now and again to try and try and chat with folks. I mean, that's Yeah, that's definitely something that I actually stole that from somebody else. I don't think I credited him in the thread. Maybe not. In some threads, I credited it, which is, uh, it's Jeff Cochran from the jump community, which is like a community of web three marketers. He founded his community, like right before the bull market. So he's on the opposite side. He had like, he told me he had conversations with 700 community members throughout 2021. That's just one year. 700 one on one conversations. I was like, that's my guy. Let's show him. This is what it is to build community. Yeah. It's a, I can't even imagine how you balance it in those early days. Like it just must've been just ridiculously busy at all time. Cause communities don't sleep, you know, like the folks in different time zones, different things happening. Well, the key actually, I don't know if this was clear if I wrote this in the thread, but Safari has always been a audio based discord and community. And why that's important is because I don't need to look at the community or monitor the community every day per se or every hour of the day. Like a lot of these massive discords you absolutely have to. Everyone comes around to the table for calls like this and that's, that's how they engage with the community. I think that's also different from like a Lich standpoint of like, I do Stupid amount of work up front getting to know people. I do a stupid amount of work matching people with each other so that they meet people. And then I do one call a week with the community. And so that's sort of how we're structured. It's a big lift up front and then not that much to maintain. Yeah, that, uh, that networking piece seems to be what, what's really special. I don't have all the answers and honestly, probably none of us do. But that's why we're here. But just being able to save someone like two, three days worth of work, chasing down an introduction to someone that's important for them to meet. Uh, it's like a super auto aimed community superpower. That's all it is, that's what networks are supposed to be good for. Alright, so we got about 10 minutes left here, so folks if you do have any questions, feel free to drop them. Uh, we did have one come in from, uh, Smasher. He said, hey Justin, can you tell us more about Safari for Gamefy protocols? Also, is it possible to integrate our own smart contract? Yeah, uh, we definitely serve a number of Web3 games and very possible to integrate. We have a SDK that lives on your front end. Uh, we're currently desktop only. So I know that's maybe less attractive for something the game says. If you have a mobile game, apologies. Uh, we're not quite there yet. Yeah. It's very easy to set up on the front end side on the smart contract side. Uh, we do it on a case by case basis. Also welcome doctor. I didn't see you pop in. Welcome to the community. So I got a couple more questions here, want to make sure we hit these. When your team kind of sat down and you're chatting with your community, probably saw a dozen different challenges in the space. Like a dozen different paths you could take on something to build together. How did you land on this attribution platform as? It's the, the idea that you guys wanted to move forward with. Definitely. So we, so I say we start with the DAO tool that was very short lived. And then after the DAO tool, we built a, we're really trying to like, think about how growth can be different in web three in a really unique way. Cause we're still like adjacent to the bull market then where crazy ideas were okay. Um, so this is like early 2022 in the bear, but still. You know, at some of that like expansive mind euphoria. And so what we decided to build at that point in time was a collaborative version of Mixpanel. Uh, so what I mean by that was we were going off the thesis, which is still true. You know, it's really hard for non technical people to like gain equal insights from their blockchain data. And so we were like, well, growth leaders need You'd be able to analyze this blockchain data. They're going to be able to survive in this web three growth landscape. And all of those underlying pieces were true, except what we realized through a built in product was that blockchain data alone, like looking at it alone on its own without off chain data was interesting to look at, like, as in like. Oh, it's cool to like be able to see like which of halters have like what wall balances or like what that means but then like after you get back past the like this is cool to be able to see this data for the first time it's like it was it was interesting but not actually this is what we found out and so there was part of that so that was sort of like a key core insight of where like not to have this data they think but they don't really need it so This is an application we should build. There was a second piece of that, this platform though, that I think couldn't have gone the distance, but ECs weren't, weren't that into it. To be candid with you, which was the collaborative nature of it is we basically built this platform where any Safari member could connect their data sources, their smart contracts and their, um, like Discord and other things and create public dashboards that everyone in, so like every project within the community, people would see private data. Uh, And so we're kind of like, these things were like, it's cool that you guys got like, you know, 20 companies and what three to within your community, which was like a hundred of us. Right. So like a decent job, 20 percent of people to like connect their private data there. But they're like, we don't believe that this is going to like be the case on that scale. I think the cat's still out of the bag on that one. I'm sad. They didn't believe in that, in that vision. I think it couldn't come back for us in the future in a different way. Different time, but for those two reasons, we decided to move away from the collaborative mix panel idea. And so the natural conclusion from the, you know, the data side was, okay, well, on chain data is interesting, but not actionable. And off chain data is just like Web2. Then what is the combination of off chain data and on chain data that is actionable? Um, and that's what led us down the path of, of attribution to say, okay, somebody takes this user journey in web two, and then they make web three transaction, which channels are the most effective and how should I invest my time or marketing budget? And so that's sort of where we found the most natural, the fastest attraction over time, there's so many different little avenues I could go through there, but I want to, I want to be true to our time here. Smasher. He said, uh, what about PWA for mobile gaming? Uh, does it work there? So I think this is referencing his prior question. We also, I think it's, it's still fundamentally the same, like mobile problem, even though you're, even though you're not going through the, obviously we can do attribution, so like mobile browser, but PWA and apps for apps are a different beast up there. Oh, we haven't fully scoped it out yet, though. I'm sure as gaming rises, we'll definitely support mobile and PWA, but. It's not on the roadmap just yet. And this isn't a question, but I would just say, so if the Safari team needs to do any uh, research or feedback from users specific to Web3 gaming, I'm sure our community would rally around any way to, to participate in that. So just, just let us know. Oh, we super appreciate it. I think for, to be totally candid with you, mobile attribution is like such a mature thing. Desktop attribution never got like as mature. And so it's like a convenient truth for us that Boaster Web 3 is not mobile yet. So we're going to wait as long as possible to do mobile, because mobile attribution is hard and scary. All right. So we have a question come in from Sweaty Yeti. Any advice for growth marketing starting from a small existing community? So under 50 people, this is, I mean, I think that this, as I mentioned before, this is the best size. What I did was I just rallied my, my personal network. Um, so what I did in the beginning was I actually start all this on LinkedIn. I believe for now, which is not the Web3 channel you would expect is for the first, before I started this community of 40, I reached out to like, probably like 18 different growth leaders at different companies on LinkedIn. I was like, Hey, like, I'm thinking about starting a community of growth leaders. What do you think about that? Let's chat. So I chatted with 10 people and then I asked each of them like what they'd be looking forward to community, what that means to them and sort of like heard their feedback of like whether people are actually excited about this idea or not. And many of them were. And so that sort of those conversations led me to create what I'd say was like basically like community value, right? Like what is. Why does this community actually need to exist? And what is it going to do for the people in it? And then I launched, I basically wrote up a notion page and sent that into the ether on LinkedIn that said, Hey, I'm starting this community, 40 people initially, private is closed. Here's what we're going to talk about in two together, apply here if you want to join. And I didn't have like a strong LinkedIn presence or anything at that point in time. Like, like most people, I just had like thousand ish. Followers, but it seems like really, uh, resonate with people. That's the vision that I put together from speaking to these 10 growth leaders. And so we ended up getting like 200 applications, most from people that were far more legit than I was at the time. Uh, so that sort of gave us the awesome ability to sort of craft this initial group of 40. But I'd say that like, Whether we had caught lightning in a bottle or not with that first batch, I think that the, the premises are still the same. You are going to be able to catch lightning in a bottle much easier if you talk to 10 people up front that would be prospective members of your community. And if, you know, vibe with what you're talking about, then that's a good, good start and a good, good sign that you should build that community. I like how you reach out to potential community members, you know, customers, clients, and in advance of. A lot of the things that you do, I think it just makes you that much more efficient and that much more informed on like the things you build actually being impactful for the audience that hopefully will use it. So you're, you're going to get out of here with one way to spare. We did not dive into your raise and your story behind that, which I think is super interesting. So I might just write up a post based off of what we talked about last time, Justin, and share that with everybody. But yeah, I appreciate you swinging by Justin. This has been a. A great conversation. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, thanks a lot. This has been fun for me as well. Um, and definitely happy to come back and share any time about other learnings. Cause yep. Uh, as I know Autopilot knows our, our fundraising story was a long, arduous, interesting process and a frustrating one in many times, uh, confusing one of many times, like I think it is for most people, but I think that most founders are also not as transparent a lot of times about. What fundraising actually meant, hopefully meant for them and their story. And hopefully we can shed some more light on those types of things, uh, moving forward, founder to founder, because I think what you'll hear it and for those that might be fundraising now, like the stories that get shared are often like, Oh yeah, like we set up all these calls over three weeks and then we closed like 10 million. And you're like, how did that happen? And they're like, Oh, you did this blah, blah, blah process. That all sounds the same. And you're like, but like, how? Like, that doesn't seem possible. And then, like, you find out that, like, you know, their friend from high school is the partner at a constituency, and they led their rounds. And you're like, cool, so this is not a repeatable process. It shouldn't be, in reality. And so, yeah, I think that we add a, probably a more People, you know, fundraising experience from a team that had never fundraised before, that wasn't a Web3 before. And yeah, sort of like made it to the finish line in the end. So I'll, uh, so folks, I know most of you are looking for capital in one way or another. So I'll definitely write up that post. I'll get it out. I'll tag everyone so you can see it. Justin, I'll probably send it over to you in advance, just in case I miss anything or misrepresent anything, you can correct me. But yeah, that's it. Thanks again for hopping in, Justin. Thank you everyone for showing up. Tom, you came in. Grand Marquis, good to see you as well. Colin, sweaty, Yeti, Dr. Smasher. Appreciate all y'all. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for showing up. Really appreciate getting to chat with all of you. And hope to see you again soon. All right, everyone. Have a great day. Peace! So just, just a quick sneak peek. What I thought was interesting about Justin's fundraising journey is he went the traditional BC route. He spent about six months doing it and it was really difficult to get traction. This is uh, mid last year. All right, so it's a really tough time. What he ended up doing, I'll document all this again. I'll get the post out, but um, what he ended up doing was He reached out to his, uh, network and began collecting angel checks and these are like micro angel checks. I have to confirm. I think he, he ended up getting over like a hundred grand or 250, 000 through like these micro angel angel checks. And then once he had that, he returned to the VCs that in the past and, and in essence said, We are the most network growth leading community in web 3. We're backed with conviction by this many folks. We have unique insights into what our consumers need and they don't have. We are raising a round. And then he was able to raise about 2. 4 million, uh, November last year as a first time founder. Some of the details, some of the numbers may be off a little bit, but that's, that's in essence the, uh, the journey. Super interesting. Super, super interesting. Tom was late. Damn! I know, man. I gotta find a time where this works for everybody. I gotta figure out where everybody's time zones are at in order to do that, though. Angels are a great way to leverage VC soft commits. Yeah. I'll let the last couple questions pop in, but try to think. What else do we got? So on Saturday we have our Crit Hit Community Calls. That's where We share with each other what's going well, what's not going well, where we could use some help. And then really the main focus for me is Demo Day. So we got Demo Day next week. It's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be just a great showing of appreciation for early stage games. So it should be fun. All right, Tom. Ha ha ha. Tom, you're writing me a paragraph here. What are you doing? I'm just joking, man. I'll wait for you. Go ahead. Hey Spidey, welcome. No! No, don't delete it. I'll be patient. I'll be patient, man. Hey, Spidey says, hey. On the phone right now. Oh, okay, okay. So if you guys want to reach out to Justin, I've dropped all of his links in the announcement for this space. We'll probably get him back again, maybe in a couple months, or a couple weeks, excuse me, and do a deeper dive on growth and his journey in fundraising. But yeah, appreciate y'all. Spidey, am I late? You are. It's over. It's all over, man. But luckily this, uh, this session was recorded. So at some point in the distant future, I will get it up on YouTube. And likely create some, uh, some posts out of it. Nice. Keep my track record. Yeah. Third time I'm late. I know, man. All right, folks. So I'll go ahead. I'll get you back to your day. Oh, you guys have noted. Can we get on the call? You seem to be the most important man in Web 3. Oh, I think he's talking to you, Spidey. He's not talking to me. Which, by the way, I think I tagged both of you guys yesterday, the day before. So Spidey's doing some user acquisition stuff out of India and Colin's doing some web three e sports stuff out of, uh, Africa. So you guys might, might have some ways to, uh, to collaborate. Uh, I need to take my kids to school. I'm super late, but, uh, but I appreciate you guys. And I will talk to you later.