Montana Outdoor Podcast
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Montana Outdoor Podcast
Montana’s New Mule Deer Management Plan - Can We Solve Montana’s Mule Deer Issues?
This week on the Montana Outdoor Podcast your host Downrigger Dale has a very interesting discussion with Brian Wakeling, Game Management Bureau Chief for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. Rigger received emails from a whole lot of you wanting more information about the new Mule Deer Management Plan that Brian and his staff are working on right now. Mule Deer are a VERY popular species to hunt here in Montana and a great deal of hunters and outdoor folks in general have been concerned about the decline in Mule Deer populations in many hunting districts across the state. Thus, one of the main reasons for the FWP developing a new management plan. So, what is a management plan anyway? Who decides what goes into the plan? What are the main issues facing Montana's Mule Deer? Is it just Chronic Wasting Disease or are there other issues that are causing population declines? Recently Brian and his staff conducted a series of public workshops across Montana to get input from folks across the state. Mainly they wanted to hear ideas and what folks would like to see in the New Management plan. So how did the workshops go? Those and many other questions will be answered when you listen to this fascinating podcast. So, what are you waiting for click that play button and give this week's podcast a listen! By the way thanks to all of you that listen and share this podcast! It has grown by leaps and bounds, in fact we just found out that it is now in the top one percent of the most downloaded podcasts in the Nation! Thanks to all of you and to our incredible sponsors, Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer and Superior Hardwoods of Montana!
Links:
- To look at the latest Mule Deer Population Report click here.
- To learn more about Chronic Wasting Disease, see maps of where CWD has occurred in Montana and other CWD related information, click here.
- Click here to learn the basics about Mule Deer in Montana.
- To look up harvest estimates for Mule Deer or any other game animals in Montana click here.
- Do you have questions for Montana Game Management Bureau Chief Brian Wakeling? Click here to send him an email.
- Your buddy Downrigger Dale would love to hear from you with thoughts about this episode, and your ideas for future podcast topics! Click here to send Rigger an email.
Remember to tune in to The Montana Outdoor Radio Show, live every Saturday from 6:00AM to 8:00AM MT. The show airs on 30 radio stations across the State of Montana. You can get a list of our affiliated radio stations on our website. You can also listen to recordings of past shows, get fishing and and hunting information and much more at that website or on our Facebook page. You can also watch our radio show there as well.
This is the Montana Outdoor Podcast brought to you in part by Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer in Missoula, home of Boss Snowplows, cm, truck beds and diamond sea trailers. Just go to R-E-M-T-T e.com for more information and buy superior hardwoods of Montana, home of the largest selection of in stock, high-end wood products and flooring in the western United States. Let them guide you through theWoods@superior-hardwoods.com. Now get ready for more fascinating topics and the most interesting people you will ever find in Montana's great outdoors. We offer new podcasts most every Saturday. You can get a link to these podcasts by going to our website, Montana outdoor.com, or by going to our Facebook page. Or just send an email to down rigger@montanaoutdoor.com. And say, send a link to my email. It's that simple. Now let's head out with your host down rigger Dale and see what's going on in Montana's great outdoors.
Dale:Thank you very much, Manny. Welcome. Welcome into the Montana Outdoor Podcast Studios. So glad you could join us today to explore more of Montana's great outdoors. I wanna give a special welcome to our men and women of the United States Armed Forces. Love to see you. Join us here and hope we bring you a little bit of home while you defend us all around the world. Thank you all for your wonderful service and to all of our veterans as well. to everyone listening here. I have a favorite to ask you when you get a chance. Please share this podcast to your social media and with your family and friends. It helps us out a lot. Today we're gonna cover a topic that has quite a few hunters in Montana, a bit concerned. I appreciate all the emails from many of you asking that I spend some time on this, so let's jump right into it. With a guy who has been on the podcast in the past, so some of you will no doubt recognize his name. I'm talking about Game Management Bureau, chief for Montana, fish Wildlife and Parks, Brian Wakeling. Thanks again for doing this, Brian. Uh, what I wanted to do today is talk about a topic that, uh, well, a great deal of our listeners are very concerned about and are interested to, to learn what you have to say about it. Um, I'm talking about the health of our mule deer populations in Montana. Before we get into that topic, since we've got a, uh, our podcast has grown dramatically, uh, which is great, and thanks to all of our listeners for that, uh, but there's a possibility that, uh, quite a few of our listeners may not have met you yet. Uh, you've been on the podcast before. So let's start with you. Just, uh, talk a bit about, uh, yourself, uh, what you do for the FWP, and, and then we'll go from there.
Brian Wakeling:Yeah, thanks Dale. Um, so my name's Brian Wakeling. Uh, I serve as the Game Management Bureau chief. I've been in this role with Fish, wildlife and Parks now for a little over five years. Um, prior to that I also had served as the Game chief for the Nevada Department of Wildlife. Did it for about five and a half years there. And prior to that I was the game chief in Arizona Gaming. Um, I'm kind of trying to stay one jump ahead of the law, I guess you might say, but, uh, um, have had a little bit of diverse experience across the, uh, the west. Um, and, uh, really glad to have the, the chance here and, and, uh, opportunity to speak with, uh, speak with you today.
Dale:Well, great, Brian. I appreciate that. Um, so let's, uh. First talk about the current state of Montana's mule deer populations. Now, I've heard all kinds of predictions in that, you know, everybody's got an opinion. Uh, and I mean, it's been from the extremes of boy, our mule deer populations are on the verge of collapse all the way to, uh, this is all a bunch of, uh. To do of nothing. Uh, our, our herds and, and population numbers are just fine. They always fluctuate. Now obviously you at the FWP, you guys have done a, a lot of research and keep tabs on this a lot. So I would assume you, you probably have a, a, a more of a unique perspective. Uh, uh, so I, I, I assume I'm right about that. Uh, give us your thoughts on the current state of the mule deer populations in Montana.
Brian Wakeling:That's a really good question, Dale, and. You know, there's that old story. They talk about, uh, the various blind men that are trying to describe what an elephant looks like based
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:you know, what they feel. And, you know, so much of it has to do with what part of the elephant you're actually working with. And to some degree that's true with Montana's mule deer or mule deer throughout the west right now. Back in 1997, the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies put together what they called the Mule Deer Working Group. And the reason they formed that group was because mule deer were largely in decline throughout the west. And even today, you know, we're here we are 28 years later, and, There's a lot of information that that group's put together. There's a lot of research that have been conducted by a lot of the different states throughout the west. Um, and we know an awful lot more about the particulars about what drives mule deer populations. Um, but depending upon where you're at, mule deer populations are not looking good. Mule deer populations may not be as bad when you look at Montana. Depending upon what region you're at, um, region one has never been a place where we've had a lot of mule deer, but if you look over the course of the last 10 years, it's probably not off as much as what it might be in say, region six and seven. Um, we've seen some, some pretty substantial declines there. Um, and so. Have we seen declines occur before? Yeah, absolutely. We have. Um, does that make our concern for this decline at this point in time? Any less? No. I mean, anytime we see populations fluctuate and that's what wildlife populations do, um, you know, they, they fluctuate over time and as managers, our goal is try to model, modulate that as much as possible so that we can try to. Keep the lows to be not quite as low as we as they have been, and keep the highs from getting not quite as the high. A lot of people always think back to the last time things were really high and think, wow, that those were the glory days. That's where we want to be. But oftentimes those real, real highs aren't any better for the deer population in the long run than what the real lows are.
Dale:Well, And, and I, I get that, but on the other hand, I hear, you know, all the time about CWD. Um, I do some work also with Game and Fish, uh, in Wyoming. Uh, and so I get a lot of their press releases too, and they've got concerns about it. What, what do you think, you know, is your and, and your team's main concerns about the mule deer population right now in Montana?
Brian Wakeling:Well, chronic wasting disease is certainly a concern for us. Um, been really fortunate here in Montana that haven't had the same challenges that Colorado and Wyoming has seen to date. Um. There was a recent paper that was published, uh, this year, uh, Journal looking at, uh, what actually works for managing chronic wasting disease. And, and there is no silver bullet, there's no
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:thing that we found at this point in time that can say, you know, if we just do this, it goes away. Um, it doesn't go away. What we have to do is try to manage the prevalence of it. so, uh, places like Colorado, places like Wyoming, we can benefit from the knowledge that they've gained because they've been dealing with this.
Dale:Mm-hmm.
Brian Wakeling:Colorado first saw it in the late sixties and, um, and they've been, they didn't even know what it was at the time. And so it's, the knowledge has been kind of developing over time the things that work for managing prevalence are not necessarily the things. That make most hunters feel warm and fuzzy. It's not the answers that they want to hear.
Dale:Right.
Brian Wakeling:what Wyoming has recently learned off of that research that they've published is that if you harvest bucks lightly. It's a place where CWD currently exists. What you see is prevalence increased dramatically, um, to the point that if you are harvesting at, at relatively low levels, 20% of the total bucks, um, they've seen prevalence get as high as 60%, uh, in other areas where they've been harvesting very, very, uh, aggressively. For 20 years, uh, trying to keep, uh, trying to harvest 40% of the bucks every year. they've been able to keep. Prevalence, uh, down below 5%, five to 10%. And so, our objective with CWD is to keep it at that low level. Having said all that, and with all those concerns, um, overall, that is not what's driving populations in Montana today. You know, we're seeing, um, a lot of other factors that play a role. Um, habitat, conditions, climate and weather. Ation. Um, and those are, those are all of the factors that we're considering as we're working with this moving forward.
Dale:Well, and it, it kind of seems to me that. Uh, with the CWD thing, which by the way, that's a very interesting statistic for Colorado, that it's been around that long. Um, so I mean, it's been around, I mean, has there been any kind of new research come out about it as far as ways to, to control the spread of that? Or is it just one of those things that's just never been able to really totally figure out yet?
Brian Wakeling:I would say at this point in time, we haven't figured it out.
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:research, a lot of active research being conducted, um, on a lot of different fronts. Um, you know, there's some information that, uh, um. That suggests that, uh, certain genetic strains, uh, may actually be more resistant to CWD than others. the, what we've learned about that so far is that those tend to be recessive genes. other words, it's not something that is, that that manifests itself on a regular basis None of those recessive genes that have, indicated there might be some resistance. That doesn't mean they're, they're. They don't contract it, they still contract it, still die from it. It is a hundred percent fatal. Um, all that means is they may survive another eight to 10 months with it, which means they spread it longer.
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:other thing with those recessive genes is often they're recessive because they're also associated with some other fitness characteristic. That means they are less to survive in the wild.
Dale:Oh, okay.
Brian Wakeling:it's not just, Hey, if we could get everybody to have this, they'd be more resistant. They might have some other negative aspects associated with it as well that might reduce their fitness.
Dale:Well, and I. I imagine that it's, it's kind of a, a, a tough thing to wrap your arms around, especially with a state like Montana, that's so huge and very diverse environments. Uh, that, you know, I, I would assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it, it's hard to, to really diagnose what's going on because of all the different effects that you find in different terrain and, and all that drought, all that kind of stuff.
Brian Wakeling:Yeah. Uh, I mean, when you're looking at population trends, um, that's absolutely the case. I mean, uh, certain, uh, regions, um, we've got portions of region three portions of region six portions of region one that have, um, higher prevalence of chronic wasting disease. then when you look at the landscape as well, the habitat, um, you know. There's obviously big differences between the east and the west,
Dale:Sure.
Brian Wakeling:you look at parts of our northwest, um, where. You know, there historically there used to be additional, uh, mule deer present on that landscape. We've, we've also, changed the frequency with which we, we treat, uh, our timber in that country. The logging has changed and so mule deer are. disturbance oriented animals. If there's, uh, if we're able to harvest trees, if we're able to have prescribed fire, if we're able to, um, have those land management changes on the, on the landscape kind of disturb the habitat a little bit. A lot of times our mule deer respond really well, so we see differences, um, the regions based upon. Um, access is another huge issue. Um, our ability to go in and, uh, and work with, uh, specific management tools that we have available to us. Um, if we don't have access, if we can't. Exercise hunting in certain areas. If we, you know, if the Forest service is limited by their ability to have a silvicultural treatment, um, logging, um, you know, uh, you know, and private landowners provide so much habitat and there's, there's such a resource for. For our, our wildlife. Um, but they have concerns and, and things that they have to consider when they're doing things as well. And so
Dale:Yeah,
Brian Wakeling:of that makes a, as you mentioned, makes a very complex environment to work in.
Dale:well. Let's talk a bit about the, what the future holds for our mule deer populations right now. Um, you guys at the FWP are developing a new mule deer management plan, uh, and, uh, we're gonna talk about that. But first, uh, could you tell us in a nutshell what a management plan is and what its main purpose is? What are the typical elements that it entails?
Brian Wakeling:Sure. and that, that's a great question. Um, uh, there's a lot of effort that goes into developing those plans. Um, but those plans are not regulatory in nature. So, um, it does is provides our agency with guidance on how we should address. Uh, particular situations, if you will. Um, currently we're operating under a, uh, an adaptive harvest management plan. Uh, that plan was first developed in the early two thousands. Uh, it was revised in 2021 and updated, uh, at that time. You know it, and it focuses mostly on. Which is what the agency has the most control over. Um, but one of the things that we know is that Hunter Harvest is among the, the smallest factors that influence a. Mule deer population trend
Dale:Huh.
Brian Wakeling:trajectory, uh, over time. And I mean, obviously if we've got, uh, female har, you know, antlerless harvest, um, that certainly has a potential. It's what, it's a lever that we've got control over. We can decrease that or decrease that. And that can certainly, uh, influence population trajectory. Um, but. The male harvest, um, has very little influence on population trajectory, and so that's a lever that we currently and frequently use a lot. But habitat, condition, um, you know, weather and climate, uh, disease, you know, a lot of those factors tend to have a far more overarching influence on those deer populations than what Hunter Harvest does.
Dale:Okay, So, is is changing or updating the current plan, something that that FWP always does, you know, on a regular basis or. Is the decision to develop this new mule deer management plan? Is it mainly driven because the old one's not working or
Brian Wakeling:So,
Dale:reason for it?
Brian Wakeling:yeah. Yeah. And again, a great question. So when, whenever we develop a plan, um, our goal is to make a plan that's going to be durable and long lasting. developing a new plan is not a cavalier undertaking. Um, we started this, um. A little over a year ago with the Citizens Advisory Committee that we put together, um, we had, uh, about, uh, three meetings over the course of six days with, uh, um, 12 people from across the state trying to help us identify what our guiding principles would be for this. Um, now we've, we've taken their input along with the input that we received from, uh, preference surveys. Other experiences we've had with different surveys and what the public has told us in season settings trying to take that input and we'll be, um. We're in the process, uh, currently wrapping up, uh, some public meetings to see, you know, hey, we've got these ideas, um, are we on the right track? Um, is, uh, you know, how, how are we doing with that? Uh, can you tell us. Did we miss something? Is there something more important that we should be considering? Then we're gonna go forward. We're gonna, as we draft this plan, the goal is to have something finished, um, by about the end of 2025, early part of 2026 that we can then share with everybody, get a review on that. Once we get those review back, then we'll have to go through. The Montana Environmental Policy Act review, where it goes through and looks at the impacts of all of this stuff, especially the effect on the, the human environment, which will take another year. And so our hope is to get this wrapped up sometime by about the end of 2026, early 2027.
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:as I said, it's, it's not a cavalier undertaking. It's, it's a, it's a pretty in-depth effort, but the reason we wanna. Revise this one now is not because our adaptive harvest management plan doesn't work with harvest, but as we pointed out. There are other things that influence deer and deer management than just harvest. so what we currently don't have an awful lot within the adaptive harvest management plan is information that would guide, um, how we would provide input on habitat management.
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:the department does not, um, manage large. Landscapes. Um, our biologists are experts on what good mule deer habitat looks like, and so how should we best engage, uh, with land management agencies, other landowners, timber companies, uh, to provide that input. Um,
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:you know, the same thing with disease, the, the herd health. Um, we do have quite a bit of jurisdiction there. Um, however, You know, where there are places where chronic wasting disease is currently an issue and there's places where it's not. Um, do we want the management to be the same in, in all those places? You know, this is, this is information that's developing since, uh, the early two thousands and, and. More so, uh, than in 2021 when we updated the plan. We've got more information now too. Um, so harvest habitat health, those are kind of the, the three biggies. But we're also looking for anything else that we, um, I. We haven't considered, we may have overlooked. Um, and so what we want is a broader document that's going to give us, um, more information, more guidance to the agency, uh, so that we can use that to move forward once we get finished with it. Like I say, it's not a regulatory document. The commission can choose to adopt. Our recommendations or amend them as they as it, it, doesn't tie their hands. They can still do whatever they choose to do. However, this gives the agency guidance and tells the public how the agency is going to approach these challenges going forward.
Dale:Okay, well we're gonna take a quick break here. Uh, I want to. Chat a bit about one of our great sponsors, a Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer, who's just been very instrumental in keeping this podcast going and, and got some really interesting equipment that they're, uh, they've got in stock right now that I want to talk about. But when we come back, um, I wanna talk about what you listeners out there. Can be part of in this plan. Um, and there's some specific things I wanna address with, with you, Brian, but also with our listeners about public input. Because I hear this on my end. A lot of, uh, people get some of these ideas of what the motivation is behind it and they don't care or whatever. So I wanna address all those things right after this. Here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast, we talk about doing fun stuff out here in Montana's great outdoors. Now we don't bring up work and we for sure don't talk about taxes. Well, that is until now. But hey, don't worry. I'm gonna talk about those things. In a good way. What do I mean by that? Well, my friends at Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer can help you put your tax refund into the perfect equipment that will get the job done way faster so you can get back outta here with us and do all the fun stuff in Montana's great outdoors. Now, how can that be? Well just talk to the gang at Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer and they'll show you their incredible line of new baseline equipment trailers and dump trailers. I'm here to tell you those are things that will for sure help you get the job done faster than you likely have ever thought possible. Now, let me give you an example. Baseline dump trailers have the absolute best combination of quality and functionality that will flat make those trailers the backbone of all your projects. See the baseline dump trailers at Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer Feature a multi-functional gate with a holdback system and board brackets to give you extra hauling capacity. And stability, and like I said, it's a dump trailer, so whether you're clearing debris, hauling gravel, or managing construction tasks, when you get to where you're going, you just turn it on, dump the load, and before you know it, you're heading to your favorite lake. River or stream, and that's just one example of how my friends at Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer can help you increase your productivity and make your workday go a whole lot smoother and faster. So go see your baseline dealers. Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer. They have inventory in stock right now for purchase, so go see'em today. That's Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer in Missoula, Montana at 56 80 Expressway. Or just give'em a call, 4 0 6 5 4 9 4 2. Four three, or you can go see their whole inventory online@rmtte.com. That's RM TT e.com. Do it today'cause hey, we miss you out here. It's time to come fishing. Back here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast, uh, I've been talking with Brian Wakeling. He is the Game Management Bureau chief for the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks. And we're talking about this, uh, developing this Mule Deer management plan. And when it was announced that you guys are working on this, um, one of the things that. That you had announced, and I know our listeners have heard me talk about it. Uh, as far as, okay, now's your time. Everybody get your, your input. They, they're having a series of workshops that have been going on, but I, I wanna call up on my soapbox for just a minute. Um. You know, all of you listeners, I love you and you're fantastic and you really drive this podcast. Reason I'm doing this is because all of you are emailing saying, Hey, why don't you talk about this? I wanna know what's going on. But some of you get on the, this us and them attitude, and I, I gotta tell you, that's just the wrong approach, gang, because. Everything that I've ever done, and I've talked with FWP, with Game and Fish in Wyoming, with game wardens every, we're all on the same team here. Everybody's trying to do the same thing. So the more inputs you guys give and you're out there seeing what's going on, a lot of you are, are landowners. You're seeing, you know what, what this big game situation's like if you don't. Give the input then, you know, Brian's team in some cases is kind of flying blind, you know, I mean, they, they, they, they do a lot of research, but you're some great eyes and ears, so you gotta get out there and get involved. So, I'll get off my soapbox now, but boy, I hear that a lot and it, it, it really, um. I guess it just kind of makes me sad that, that we're, we're not thinking the way we should be. We should be thinking that we're all in this together because we are. Um, so anyway, Brian, um, these workshops that you, you've had going, um, tell me a bit about how, how, how have the workshops gone? Um, what's your feeling So far as far as this public input? Are you getting a lot of input from people?
Brian Wakeling:So far our, our engagement has been pretty good. So, you know, we, we did, when we did the Citizens Advisory Committee. were public meetings. we, we had those, uh, that we shared, uh, virtually. And, uh, in the course of that, I think we collected somewhere in the neighborhood of 170 public comments, uh, just through, through that alone. Um, and so. Currently, um, you know, while we're sitting here talking, we're kind of at the, the tail end of our first week of meetings and, um, we're looking at, uh, we've probably had about another, oh, I wanna say probably pushing 70 or 80 people participate, uh, in the, the first couple of few meetings that we've had. Um, everybody's been respectful. I mean, to the point you were
Dale:Good.
Brian Wakeling:you know, you have the opportunity to engage. Uh, you, one of the things I like to encourage people to do, uh, when they have the opportunity to speak to the commission, uh, a lot of people, I don't, I'm not sure what they think. Commissioners get out of the jobs that they have, but they're not. They're not salaried positions. Um, they're
Dale:Right.
Brian Wakeling:they're volunteering, uh, that's usually on top of jobs that they've already got. Uh, they're having to travel around the state and although we compensate'em for the travel, um, they, they still have to take time away from their regular jobs. And a lot of people get really, really angry with the decisions they have to make. Um, and they're really difficult decisions. And I've talked with lots of them and. Several different states and they struggle really hard with those decisions. And one of the things that, that really can go a long way, at the end of every commission meeting, there's a call to the public. You get a chance to comment on things that were not discussed at that meeting. And I encourage people, just get up the, at the podium, introduce yourself and just say thank you. Don't
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:elbow, don't say you screwed this up. Say thank you, sit down, don't take a lot of time. Um, I think that goes a long way. Um, and so I kind of jumped on one of my soapbox there, Dale. I, and I
Dale:Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's fine. And, and that's what this is about.
Brian Wakeling:the engagement is so important.
Dale:Yeah. It really is because, uh, I think sometimes people forget that I. You guys aren't the end all decision makers here, the commission, um, you, you present your findings and you tell them, Hey, this is why we think this needs to go this way, but they make that final decision. So the input that you get from the public really helps bolster and support. What you're doing. So that's why it's so important to interact with, with everybody. And if, if we all get in this together, and I'm not saying you have to, you know, for all of you out there, I'm not saying you have to agree with everything. I mean, some of you, in fact, a lot of you are really smart on this stuff. You've spent a lifetime out there in the outdoors doing this. So it's okay to say, I've got a different idea. I, I kind of think it's this way or that way. That helps too. So I'm not saying just shut up and, and go along, get that input in there. But, um, I, I really, especially in something that, that the mule deer population in Montana is a very cherished thing. Uh, you, you talk to mule deer hunters, they are very passionate about it.
Brian Wakeling:Yes.
Dale:They, they love, they love the mul deer and they are a unique and, and very interesting animal. So I, I get it. So I think if we can all team together, then the commission really gets that full story and now we're gonna get it moving in the right way. Uh, so go ahead.
Brian Wakeling:important. A lot of people think that, and I, you hear it all the time, science should dictate the answer. Science is really good at helping us get to the end point that we establish. I. the endpoint that we establish is dependent upon the public. They, it's a, it's a social determination. Um, there is no right number of elk or right number of deer. You know, we can tell when there's too many, we can tell when there's too few, but there's a lot of room in between. And the same thing with predators. And so. If the public shares with us their, their sentiment, um, the commission can use that to help make decisions. Um, our science helps inform their decisions, but there's a lot of social sideboards, um, that we've got room to move in there. And, um. That, that input is, is really critical. The other thing I like to say is, you know, Montana is a great big place
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:we've got a lot of variation as we've been talking about habitat and disease and all this other stuff. Um, but. We don't have to do the same thing on every square inch of the state. We've got room to,
Dale:Bingo. Yes.
Brian Wakeling:special management districts. We can, we can, you know, have places where we manage for opportunity. Um, and so got the ability to try to accommodate a lot of these interests, um, if we craft it correctly.
Dale:Uh, during these workshops so far, is there any, uh, topics or, uh, themes from input from the public so far that, that have been coming up quite often? I.
Brian Wakeling:You
Dale:Or is it all over the place?
Brian Wakeling:There's some variation amongst the cities where we've been. Um, but, you know, there's, there's often a recognition that, uh, how important habitat is. Uh, that's one of the things that's Im, that's impressed me is, is hunters really recognize how important habitat is to the overall, uh, health of the population. Um, they also recognize that that. Predators play a role. And, um, we need to manage that, those populations, just like we manage deer and elk populations or just like we manage, uh, tree density, you know, all of those things. Um, just. take our hands off and just let nature take its course. nature will take its course, but we're not necessarily gonna like where it goes.
Dale:Right.
Brian Wakeling:I think most of the, the messages and you know, people certainly recognize that. um. Management plays an important role. Um, some of the other information, other consistencies that I think is, uh, there's obviously, uh, a real interest in, in good quality data, be that in harvest data or be that in population data, uh, radio collaring movement data. Um, the, the hunters, um. And the participants at these meetings all recognize the importance of good quality data. you know, from the agency's perspective, you know, it's, it's, it's. Interesting how much hunters are willing to invest in some of that. Uh, sometimes, um, we're, from our perspective, from a fiduciary to things, sometimes the investment may be, uh, a little bit more than what's really warranted. But the fact that they are so committed to having good quality data, uh, that, you know, that's something that's real consistent too.
Dale:Um, so can you, like, one of the things I get a lot, um. And I completely understand their concern. You know, I, I grew up, uh, in Western Montana on a cattle ranch. Uh, we would see all the different environmental factors that came into play, uh, weather, habitat, all that. And so, you know, sitting on a back of a horse chasing around 2000 head of cattle, you, you kinda learn what's going on out there. And, you know, sometimes I would, I would look at the, the, uh. You know, decisions that were made of how many bucks were gonna be allowed to be harvested or dozed? And I go, wait a minute. Why, why are they doing it that way? How do you address that? Because I think a lot of times our listeners, uh, one of their cri criticisms is, I don't think they're seeing what, what I'm seeing. How, how do we rectify that? Is it, is it they're mistaken? You're mistaken? Or do we just need to talk more?
Brian Wakeling:Oh, you know, probably trying to get to a better common understanding is, uh, is part of the challenge, you know? Um. A lot of people ask a question, how are mule deer looking in Montana? Well, if you look in region one, they're doing differently than they are in region six. And you know, and so, you know, part of What we're looking at is scale. when you are, uh, a landowner and you're working a, a particular piece of country, um, or if you're a hunter you're scouting a piece of country that you've, you've hunted before and had really good luck in, um, you may be looking at that landscape with a finer scale. Uh. Resolution to it than what the agency may. so when we're looking at a, um, you know, with elk, frequently we're looking at things on a hunting district level, uh, with mule deer. We may be looking at a trend area or a population management unit level. And when we're looking at things across a broader landscape, you know, you may be absolutely correct in this canyon, there are not the deer that I saw. The last two years that might be due to, um, some really small scale weather changes. It may have been really dry there. Uh, there may have been a fire there, there may have, there may have been some disturbance that occurred in there that drove the animals out of that particular area. It could be a localized disease outbreak of some sort. And so you may see a very, fine scale resolution change, but when you look at it across. The hunting district. Well, that kind of levels out, you know, those maal have been disturbed out of that area and moved over. Um, a couple canyons, and we may be picking up, up on surveys there. Um, may have, or drought may have been an issue in this particular area, but in another area. Um. had more rainfall at just the right time. Uh, and consequently, you know, we've seen more recruitment over there, and yet they're all intermingling over the course of the year. So, um, not, we're not discounting, you know, observations that individuals make, but sometimes it's just the scale that we're looking at things on, and sometimes it's the scale that we can manage things on. wanna look at things, um, within. We call population management units so that they're, we're expecting all of the animals within that area to largely be doing the same thing, moving in the same direction, following the same, uh, migration corridors, uh, responding to the same. But even within that, they're small scale changes that sometimes we don't detect.
Dale:Well, that's a good point. And I, I guess, I mean, I've been guilty of it. Where, you know, I'll, especially when I was younger and got out and tramped around the, the, the woods, like a wild man. Uh, but I had my, my hunting spot, you know, this is where I go and this is my hunting spot. And oh, dang it, they messed up my hunting spot. But yet, when I'd be be out fishing, I wouldn't think that way. I've go, well, they're not biting here. Let's move on. Yet we don't think that way with hunting. And so, uh, I guess that's something we, we do need to think about is, you know, the puzzle changes, the aspects change. So maybe we, we, we gotta think in more of a broader district view of things. I guess I, on the Right. track here.
Brian Wakeling:Yeah, I think you are. And I, you know, the other thing is, uh, I like to, a couple of things I like to share. One is, uh, I can remember one of the first, uh, hunt recommendations I ever presented to a commission back in Arizona. And I mean, I poured my heart and soul into that thing, and the commission took about. minutes to consider it, changed it and went on about their business.
Dale:Oh, Jesus.
Brian Wakeling:uh, and tried to hold it together. And as I was getting back to the office after that, I was lamenting to my, my supervisor at the time, and, and she looked at me for a minute. She said, Brian, get over it. Rarely do we screw things up so bad this year that we can't fix it next year. And, and that's true. You know, it is.
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:changes, but the populations don't respond that that badly. Um, sometimes they're, it was the right thing to do. the other thing, um, is a lot of people, you know, I. The doggone game departments have screwed this thing up from one end to the other. You know, I am not aware of a single state or a single jurisdiction where, uh, wildlife agencies have been able to manage mule deer out of existence. They're still there.
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:and, uh. Um, that doesn't mean that we don't need to be responsive and that we don't need to listen, and we don't need to care about this stuff. Um, so I don't mean to be, uh, discounting those points, but, sometimes mentioned passion earlier. You know, sometimes we're so passionate about something, we're so convinced we're right. We are so convinced that it, that we've had the epiphany that everybody else missed. Um. It's a big state. We've got room to do a lot of different things. We don't have to do the same thing on every square inch.
Dale:Good point. Hey, we're gonna take one last break here. Uh, and when we come back, uh, I wanna address and we will wrap things up, but I, I wanna address, um, one, what the future, uh, input, um, opportunities look like. And then also let's talk a bit about if there's any kind of inklings that, that you and your staff are starting to get as far as. Some changes that may start to be proposed in this new plan. So we'll address that right after we, uh, we talk with my, uh, my friends out there at Superior Hardwoods who are just doing an amazing job. Have you ever thought of doing a DIY project for your home? I've known John Corey and the rest of the gang at Superior Hardwoods in Missoula, Montana for a very long time. They've always been there for me, and I know they'll be there for you too. A true partner to help complete your DIY home improvements. Heck, they have been doing that since 1977, whether you're dreaming of a. Charming accent wall or a complete floor makeover, they have it covered. There is no better feeling than the satisfaction of adding a touch of history to your home with their unique reclaimed woods. Now, I'm not just talking about lumber here. I'm talking about. A story waiting to be told. My friends at Superior Hardwoods of Montana proudly stock over 11 acres of stunning reclaimed wood. Perfect for turning your house into a home. That is as unique as well you are. And don't worry if you're just starting out with your first DIY project. The pre-finished flooring, pre-finished paneling and trim options at superior hardwoods make it easier than ever to tackle any project like you've been doing it for years. So what do you say, gang? Why not dive into your next DIY adventure with confidence and let the decades of experience that they have at Superior hardwoods take you through every step. Need a little inspiration? Well visit them online@superior-hardwoods.com. Now, that's a great place to start out by browsing their website and again@superiorhardwoods.com. That's superior hardwoods.com. Not only will they help guide you through your home makeover with all their amazing ideas, and they're over 100,000 square feet for the most incredible wood flooring, paneling and other wood products, they'll actually guide you through the woods. Now, what do I mean by that? I'll give you an example. First time I went to their showroom just south of Missoula on Highway 93 South. I was blown away by the unbelievable selection of different types of wood from not just Montana, but from all over the world. Best of all, I sat down with them, told them a bit about what I was thinking of doing, and the next thing I knew, I was hearing incredible ideas and learning about the perfect wood for what I wanted to do. That is what I mean by letting them guide you through the woods at Superior Hardwoods of Montana. Go see him. Back here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast, Brian Wakeling is with me. And, uh, we have been having a great discussion about our mule deer. And, um, you know, it's, it's one of those things that, as we discussed earlier, we all get passionate about and they are an amazing critter and we want'em to. Stay around Montana a long time and be able to harvest them and do all that. So, uh, it's been a great, great, uh, discussion with the, the, uh, game Management Bureau chief here. So, uh, before we go though, Brian, let's talk a bit about what, what you've been hearing, what you've, you know, getting, gathering all this data. One, um, tell us again when you think. This management plan will actually be completed and, and out.
Brian Wakeling:Yeah, great question. Um, so, uh. As we started this project out, um, it's been, oh, just about a year ago we had the Citizens Advisory Committee, and at the same time we hired a DL coordinator. Our DL is Adam Kauf. and he's been with the agency for a year now. Uh, he's leading the actual, uh, penmanship on the, uh, on the plan. And so, um, what we're planning to do. Is to get that, uh, the first draft of something pulled together off of everything, all the preference surveys we've run, all the data, we've collected, all of the, the input we're getting. Um, then try and get something crafted towards the end of this year, first part of next year. So December 25, January 26th, somewhere in there at
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:What we'll do is we'll put that out, uh, and share that for comment, and that will be an opportunity, first opportunity of to, for people to be looking at a full draft of, of what we wanna be talking about and what we really. We want to try to do is identify the objectives that we want to attain, and in the process of identifying these, those objectives, then we'll also identify a suite of tools that we can use in order to get there. So, um. In some places it may be a, a buck to dough ratio, a Fonda dough ratio, uh, other parts of the state where we don't have, uh, the ability to collect that kind of data because of the vegetation and the topography. You know, it may be I. that we can get off of, of, uh, camera traps and research we're doing on that. Um, it might be harvest levels. Uh, there's a lot of demographic variables that we can collect that we can put into targets. then, uh, we'll have the suite of tools that'll help us get there. that's gonna be the season structures that we may wanna have. Um, you know. What will they look like? Um. It'll be the, the tools associated with the habitat. Um, you know, what can we do with, with habitat in order to be able to get the population levels that we want See? Um, it could be, you know, things to do with chronic wasting disease management in order to keep prevalence where we want it to be. It could involve, uh, changes to season structure and hunts for predators, uh, so that we can manage those so we can get the responses that we're looking for. And there may be other things that we come up with, uh, as well. So I. That's gonna be the first draft. We're gonna have that, uh, towards the end of the year, um, December 25, January 26, get it out. And that's where we'll, we'll try to get comments from the public on that. Once
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:back and, and anything we receive at that point in time has the potential to change the plan. And so after we finish with that, then we'll also initiate the Montana Environmental Policy Act review. And that point we will put together, uh, a, a draft ea, uh, we'll share the EA and the plan. also go out to the public. that point, the, the public has the opportunity to comment, and again, the plan may change based on the comment we received during that period of time, hopefully trying to get that wrapped up, uh, and get it finished by December of 2026. Um, we're currently in a biennial season setting process whereby, uh, we're planning to take our, uh, season structures to the commission in December of this year. plan will be complete and will actually be more informative, uh, for the next biannual season setting process, which will culminate in December of 27.
Dale:Okay, so just to clarify some of the. Takeaways I, I got from that is one. Um, there's still plenty of opportunities coming up that people can comment, uh, that, that can help, you know, structure this and, and influence it. Uh, two, two, it's probably a little too early to tell as far as specific changes that are gonna be made, if any. Uh. three. There's not really gonna be any changes to this upcoming season based on any of this. Am I correct there?
Brian Wakeling:So the, the, the plan itself will not guide any changes that we're going to recommend coming up, uh, for the commission in December. However,
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:um, as we're going through this process and the season setting process, they're kind of happening pretty close to the same time. Uh, information we get during the season setting process might influence the plan. And information that we collect currently through these public meetings certainly have the potential to influence what we might ultimately propose, uh, in October of this year. And so, um, they're, they're kind of informing one another, but the plan won't be finalized and it won't be the guiding document that we'll use in the future, uh, in 2027.
Dale:Do you see any significant changes to the mule deer season as far as numbers and season dates and all that for this fall at all?
Brian Wakeling:I am not necessarily seeing, um, a lot of radical changes. Um, we may see some, uh, some season structures that get proposed in order to meet, uh, existing objectives within, um, uh. Our adaptive harvest management plan. And so you'll definitely see some changes perhaps to season structure. Uh, but it's not, at this point, we don't have, we don't anticipate, um, you know, that we'll do, we'll either extend seasons or we will do away with the existing seasons. Um, there may be some region specific changes that occur. Um. Uh, but we haven't, we haven't finished scoping all those ideas yet either. So,
Dale:Okay.
Brian Wakeling:until we get through that June, july period, it's, it's difficult to say what we're ultimately gonna carry forward to the commission. Um, those will be posted, uh, typically around late October. That's when our proposals will become formal.
Dale:Okay, so stay tuned here, of course, to this podcast and also to our live show every Saturday morning, the Montana Outdoor Radio Show, and we'll let you know, uh, as, as we get information too, so that all of you. Can flow back, uh, and bounce back. What, what your thoughts are on those. Um, how about as far as other states? You know, we talked a little bit about Wyoming, so I'll use them as an example. Um, do you guys talk back and forth in, so you know, you're putting this, this major mule deer management plan together. Do you try to let say Wyoming know?'cause I mean obviously Deere don't know borders, they go back and forth. Do you, uh, do you talk with other, uh, agencies to say, Hey, this is our plan. What's your plan? How can we work together?
Brian Wakeling:Yes, you're absolutely correct. So, um, you know, earlier I had mentioned the Mule Deer Working Group and the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. And so, uh, we participate, uh. uh, wwa, um, we, uh, we participate on sheep groups. We participate on, um, on the Mul Deer working group. Adam, I mentioned Adam Kath earlier. He's our representative on that group. And so, um, we coordinate and, and work with all of the other Western states. So by that we benefit from the research that they've conducted, uh, the things that they've learned, what works in their state, what doesn't work. Um. the publics in the states tend to differ very much in the
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:of the season structure tends to be very different in each state. Um, but it's often funny how much, uh, you'll hear from one state, like, oh my gosh, I. Everybody wants, in our state wants to do it the way Montana does it. You know, like, well that's interesting'cause everybody in Montana wants to do it the way your state does it. And so,
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:it's, uh,
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:a lot of times it's the grass is
Dale:old grass is always greener on the other side Yeah, I hear you. Uh, lastly, what do you, is there any one area that you look at is like the hardest part of developing a major plan like this? What, what do you find is the hardest part?
Brian Wakeling:So in a lot of cases, I think from a biological standpoint, we can, we can, uh, we could do a real good job of understanding, uh, where we are, what we'd like to see happen. but there's, um. There's largely four different aspects of any management, uh, action that you might in, in, in undertake. the biology is one of them, and. That's what we all went to school for. That's what we trained on. Um, and most of our, most of our folks are really, really good at that. And then, um, another part of it I'd kind of mentioned, uh, our fiduciary responsibility. You know, it's like, um, what's the best investment? Um. As far as survey goes or harvest surveys or what have you. a lot of times we're looking at trying to make the, the best use of our finances because there's a fixed amount of revenue coming in and we wanna spend as much of it possible on good conservation. you've got the biology then it's what people say, we want to use the best science available. We don't wanna pay for the most expensive science if we don't have to.
Dale:Right.
Brian Wakeling:the science that's adequate and and appropriate for the situation. Um, a third aspect of it is, uh, human dimensions. so most states are starting to get pretty good at understanding what human dimensions are. They're starting to get pretty decent at, You know, trying to recognize that the human perspectives out there and, and that they differ depending on, uh, what aspect of the community you're looking at. But the thing that, that's probably, uh, something that I've recently been exposed to is something that's referred to, um, as normative ethics normative ethics really deal with, you know, what's fair and what's right. So if we say, you know, we want to allocate opportunity using a lottery draw, most people think that's fair. Um, sometimes we think about things like what's, what should be legal, what should be ethical? What, how, how should we deal with, just about everybody agrees that want and waste of game meat is. Is inappropriate
Dale:Absolutely. Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:that's not the thing to do. But then there's things about things that are unlawful, but are they right or wrong? Um, and most people would agree and most people would wanna throw the book at someone killed a, a bull elk outta season simply to get the antlers. But if that same person killed that bull elk to get food for their family, you're. Looking at right and wrong causes. Um, and
Dale:Uh huh.
Brian Wakeling:that's a huge oversimplification of what normative ethics are. Oftentimes we're looking at, um, you know, what, what constitutes fair chase in a certain situation? When is it appropriate to give hunters a a little bit of additional assistance? If it's going to be more effective at meeting our management objective, you know, the conservation order for, for light goose, for instance, we can. We can hunt light geese in the central Flyway in the spring those geese are having issues on breeding grounds. And so we want to be able to reduce that population. And so, I. The federal government will allow for, uh, electronic calls. In some instances, they will allow for, uh, no plugging of your shotgun. So you can, when you have an opportunity, you
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:more. And so that gets into the ethics of the overall situation. Is it right? Is it fair? Um, you know, it. Night hunting for predators? Is that an ethical thing or does that help us attain an objective that we're trying to reach? And so those are the kind of the challenges and some of that stuff, there's things that we can do that help us meet the objectives we're trying to reach. But some of that can be of the biggest challenge that, that we're faced with.
Dale:That makes sense. And you know that that's kind of an age old problem since, since we were all put
Brian Wakeling:we're only recently recognizing what that is. Um, like I
Dale:mm-hmm.
Brian Wakeling:only explicitly been pointed out to me within the last year.
Dale:Wow. You guys gotta juggle a lot of stuff. Wow. That is interesting. That, that makes me think a lot. That's interesting. Um, well, lastly, is there anything else that our listeners can do to help you guys as far as, you know, with this plan and, and just in, or maybe in general, is there, is there more that all of us out here on, on this side of the microphone can help with?
Brian Wakeling:No, I think we've, you know, you hit on it, uh, earlier on and, uh, we talked on it a little bit, is, you know, it. You know, even the people that don't like hunting, but like wildlife, on the same side that, that hunters are on. We, the reason we're in this is because we enjoy the wildlife, we enjoy the, the lifestyle. Um, you know, be understanding of one another. Be patient with one another. Um. for the volunteers that are serving as our commissioners and, and, uh, the leadership for our agencies that aren't necessarily volunteers, but nevertheless, um, they've really got some pretty thankless jobs and, and just, and be a little empathetic. Thank them. Um, and, uh. Just, and at the same time, stay engaged. There's a lot, I
Dale:Right.
Brian Wakeling:just looking at our, our webpage and then the amount of information we're trying to share, and we're constantly trying to package it differently so we can share it more effectively. I. Um, you know, when I, I've got text messages, I got emails, I have teams messages. It seems like every time it comes up with a new way to, to send messages out. I don't need more ways to be for people to communicate with me. I just want'em all to use the same way, in the same
Dale:Yeah.
Brian Wakeling:keep track of it. So, um, uh, just keep commuting, stay communicating, stay engaged, and, uh, be tolerant of one another.
Dale:Yeah. Yeah. Amen to that. And when you hear, hey, it's, uh, we're looking for input on this, that's the, you know, that's a great indication to say, okay, yeah, I'm gonna get on that rather than. Throwing out all this random stuff, uh, you know, write your thoughts down, think it through, and then yeah, let'em know what's going on. Um, so yeah, I, I think we're, we're getting in the right direction here. So Brian, I wanna Thank you, for all the time you've taken, you've taken a lot of time, uh, today with me and, and, uh. I think, uh, have given us some great information and, and some great insight as to what all goes into one of these plans and, um, I'm anxious to now hear all of you that listen to this podcast. Get your feedback to me, and, and I'll also, uh, uh, put it in there, uh, uh, uh, Brian's contact so you can, you know, send him an email and, and let him know if you've got specific questions about this podcast. But then mainly stay tuned because we'll get you all that input so that. You guys will be able to follow this process along and, and be part of it. So at the end of the day when this plan comes out, we all had a hand in it. So I'm excited for that. Brian, thanks again. I.
Brian Wakeling:you, Dale. Appreciate it.
Dale:And there you have it, gang. Uh, that is some really interesting stuff. Uh, we learned about how the sausage is made and we're gonna be part of that. So let me know what your questions are. Uh, Manny will give you my email address and look at that podcast description, uh, that you saw before you clicked and started listening to this podcast'cause that's got a lot of links and a lot of information in it. to help you too. So, until we, uh, talk again. Thanks for listening. Be good to each other out there. Be safe and we'll see you next time here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast.
Manny:Thanks for listening to the Montana Outdoor Podcast. It has been brought to you in part by Superior Hardwoods of Montana, home of the largest selection of in stock, high end wood products and flooring in the western United States. Let them guide you through theWoods@superior-hardwoods.com and by Rocky Mountain Truck and Trailer in Missoula, home of boss snowplows, cm, truck beds and diamond sea trailers. Just go to RMTT e.com for more information. So what did you think of today's podcast? Send your questions and comments to down rigger@montanaoutdoor.com. We should be dropping a new podcast this next Saturday. Until then, we will see you soon out in Montana's Great outdoors.
