Get the First Draft Written and Mental Health for Writers with Erin P.T. Canning

Episode 204 / Having trouble getting words on the page? Erin P.T. Canning has strategies to help! We delve into how to let go of perfectionism and give yourself permission to write a “bad” first draft. Erin also shares how writing helped her with depression. 

• Why it’s important to look backward as well plan for the future
• Making time to write as a busy at-home and working mom
• Turning off the inner critic
• Embracing you genre 
• Daydreaming: mentally draft and revise before writing 
• Placeholder as the first chapter

Erin’s website: https://erinptcanning.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/erinptcanningauthor;

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erinptcanning

Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/parentswhowrite

💜 🎙 Become a supporter of the podcast! We can’t wait to give you a shoutout in a future episode. https://wishidknownforwriters.com/support

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Whip I Know Money Podcast, where we focus on how authors found success, looking at strategies that have taken them to the top of the bestseller charts, as well as what they've learned from their mistakes. Because being an indie author is more than knowing the latest marketing trend. It's about being innovative and creative and learning from your mistakes.

Sara 0:26

Welcome to the Wish I Know That podcast. I'm Sarah Rosette.

Jami 0:30

And I'm Jamie Albright. And this week on the show we have Erin P. T. Cannon. Yeah, it was great, y'all. It was great. It was a long interview, so we're so our intro will be shorter than normal because uh she's got such great things to say. But we do have supporters.

Sara 0:48

We do. We do have some new supporters this week. Thank you guys. Yeah, we're thankful that you've come on board with us and we appreciate your support. Yeah.

Jami 0:56

Yeah. The first one is Doug Chowquist. Uh he has the tent. And Doug, I hope we said that right. We spent 10 minutes trying to figure out how to pronounce it. So if we said it wrong, we're so sorry. Yeah, we're so sorry. But we did make an effort. So yeah, thanks for supporting us, Doug.

Sara 1:12

Yep. Up next we have Amanda Hawkins and she picked the heart.

Jami 1:16

Is her emoji? Yes. And we have Shelly Marsh and she picked the heart as well. So thanks again. Yes, thanks to everybody.

Sara 1:23

And if you supported the podcast, um, we did release uh episode about um beginning openings, riding hooky openings for your book. And that is in the podcast feed. If you signed up to support us, you should have received an email from BuzzCast or Buzz Sprout Support with a private link that you can download and get those podcasts. If you don't have that, just email support at buzzsprout.com and they will resend it to you. And that's how you get the special episodes.

Jami 1:55

Okay. That's really great. Uh anything big going on with you?

Sara 2:01

Uh, not a whole lot. Um, this week I've or actually we're recording this on Monday, and so normally we would record it the week before, but last week I did a bunch of um, I am doing my writing still, getting some words in first, which is good.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

Yeah.

Sara 2:16

And I'm uh I found a uh place that will do 1099s for you because you know, like you're supposed to send out 20 1099s by the end of this like by the day this goes out, it will be like the day that you should have sent them because you haven't done it yet. But um Drop the Box has a thing called Form Swift, and you can go on, sign up for a trial, and do your 1099s. And if you you can cancel within seven days and it's free, so I tried it out, worked great. So if anybody needs 1099s, you could get them there and they're pretty easy. So I've been doing some stuff like that, admin stuff, and I'm offloading a bunch of things uh to Adriel. She's going to help me with this year, and it's a lot of getting things in place so that it will run later, but it's a lot of getting things in place right now.

Jami 3:07

Yeah, I'm I'm in the process of uh migrating my newsletter to a different server um just to save money because I'm not really making as much, you know, as much. And um, I was I've been with MailChimp, I've been needing to do this. I believe I've even talked about it before, but I mean I just have to do it. And uh I so Adri's gonna help me with that. And I don't know. I mean, Flowdesk is so tempting because it's so inexpensive, but BookFunnel doesn't integrate with them. And that's pretty important. It's so important. I mean, like I can you can go in and get your files, but I like not having to think about it. So I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with Mail or Lite. It's it's you know, it's not cheap at all, but it is less than I would be paying on MailChimp because my newsletter is pretty big. So um, so I think that's really what I'm doing. And um yeah, so um I did get bangs, I think I mentioned that, and all I have done this week is mess with my bangs. So it's a real struggle over here at the Allbrad House, uh, y'all. So we all have our issues, right? All the deal with, yeah. I know. So anyway, y'all have a great week and day. And uh here is Aaron, because it's a great interview. Here's Aaron, yeah.

Sara 4:42

Well, today we are really excited to talk with Erin P.T. Canning. Hi, Erin, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

I'm doing all right. Thank you so much for having me.

Jami 4:50

Oh, we're glad you're here. Thank you for making the time to be here.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I love talking about writing. So it's always this is this is what energizes me for the rest of the day. That's awesome.

Sara 5:02

All right, so here's Erin's bio. Uh Erin is a book editor, fiction author, and host of the Parents Who Write Podcast. Erin P.T. Canning is a book editor, fiction author, and host of the Parents Who Write Podcast. After donating six years of her life to motherhood, she published the fantasy romance novel Ruins and Redemption. She earned her MA in writing from Johns Hopkins University and lives with her husband and two boys in Maryland, USA.

Jami 5:28

That's awesome. Wow, that's amazing. Well, tell us how you got into writing.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

You know, I feel like it's an answer that you probably have heard many times over. Um, but for me, it originated as a child with escapism. I needed a world where I felt like I had power. And I was always drawn to the types of stories where the character could dig down deep and discover they had what they needed all along the hero's journey and rise above whatever challenges they were facing. And um, I had my challenges in childhood. I mean, we all do, let's face it. Um, but writing was my way to be the best version of myself and where I had that power. Um and honestly, it's still the same for me today. It, you know, that's escapism. I took a break from writing for a really long time, but I started up again when about, oh my God, the time is like now the years are blurring together for me. But I started reading again about, right? I started writing again about three-ish years ago. And um it started again with that escapism. No offense to my children. I love them profusely. I unexpectedly became an at-home mom and I had undiagnosed anxiety, undiagnosed ADHD, undiagnosed depression, and I didn't realize um what I was getting myself into and it got worse. And so writing what became my way to get out of that. And and yeah, but the biggest shock for me was that when I got back into writing, it was actually with creative nonfiction, and I had never done creative nonfiction before that. But it became my way of processing things.

Sara 7:25

That is interesting. Did you move from that into fiction later?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

I did. So the first stuff that I started writing about and I published on my blog, and I hated everything that I wrote because I felt my like my writing skills had atrophied. I thought writing had was a past version of myself. Um, but everything I started writing in the beginning was about my father disowning me, fun times, um, and how my anxiety or I had never been a parent who yelled at my kids until I had my second child and then I was screaming all the time. And what I discovered is that anger masks anxiety. So a lot of that writing was about me coming to terms with that and understanding what was going on and processing. And once I got all of that out of my system, my fictional character started talking to me again. And I was like, oh, what do you know? I am still a fiction writer. That's so exciting.

Jami 8:22

That's amazing. That's amazing. I love that because, you know, I mean, we all have those I hate to use the word blocks, but but it is kind of a block, you know, for whatever reason. And and they come sometimes seasonally. And um, you know, so I love that you were able to process through that and then get back to your fiction writing.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, it's interesting how much writing became necessary for me. And I noticed that when I made the time to write, I was better able to be there for my kids rather than me being like, no, I'm supposed to be the perfect parent and put them first all the time. And then I had nothing left to give them. But yeah, when I made my writing a priority, I was happier. And they got a happier mama. So everybody's happier.

Sara 9:14

Which makes everybody happier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Exactly.

Sara 9:18

Exactly. Just I know this is a huge topic, but just quickly, if there's someone who's this is in this situation and they're like, How did you write out of your how did your writing help you through this time? Do you have any any advice for them?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

What you put down on paper does not mean that's who you are. I wrote some stuff that I held on to deep inside those fears of, you know, is it that I hate being a parent? Is it that I was never cut out to do this, or what's wrong with me? Like those deep-seated fears that can just eat away at you. And when I was able to put them on paper and just let it go, I realized, no, that's not actually who I am. I don't really feel that way. Right. But by able to, by being able to acknowledge it, I could release it rather than just keep trying to push it down more and more.

Jami 10:15

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I I recently found uh a journal that I had been writing in before I quit the day job. Well, actually, it was it was like a year before because and I was at a different stage with my job than I was when I actually quit. And um was before I had published, and I was so unbelievably miserable in that job. I mean, just miserable. And I was mad at everyone, mad at my husband that he didn't say, Well, honey, just quit, even though he sort of had said that. I didn't think we I could, you know, and um and I said some, I mean, like I got I threw it away. Like I threw it away. I would never want anyone to read that because I said some things that I don't really mean, but at the time I had to get that get it out, and it did help. It it did help. It helped me get up in the morning, get that crap out of my head, go to work, and then come home and do it all again the next day. But yeah, I just would never want him or my children or anyone else to read some of the things I said because they did, they weren't who I was, but they were who I was at the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

So yeah, those feelings that you have, and they're they come from somewhere, you know. And so if you can dig into it, then you can find out what the root cause is and address it. And so um, yeah, that's that's a lot of what my early writing was. And I was like, oh wow. But I also had fun with the creed, the um creative nonfiction to being able to turn it into a story. I had a traumatic birth with my first child that I never allowed myself to process until I was pregnant with a second one and I had a panic attack going into the hospital. Um, and that one of the first pieces that I wrote at 28 weeks when reality shifts was me finally sitting down and just the piece oscillates back and forth between the red flags that started to appear when I was getting my sonogram and uh my brain trying to process it. Like when my doctor was like, You you you need to go into the hospital like right now. And I was like, No, no, no, no, we we left the paint cans out, like because we we're in the middle of painting the nursery. So like we gotta, we just we just have the rollers wrapped in a plastic wrap, you know, like we gotta go finish. We gotta go home and come back. Yeah, right. And she's like, No, no, sweetheart, you're you're going into the hospital now. And I was like, Oh. Um, and so it was hard writing that piece, but it was so good to just like get it out of my system.

Sara 13:03

It's amazing how writing helps you know yourself or understand yourself. It's very interesting. Yes, yeah, very much so. Well, um so you've moved, you've moved more into fiction writing now. You write mostly fiction. So I'm sure things have changed over time, but what is your definition of success?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Oh, I love that one. Um, so what I find interesting about that is that my definition of success changes with each new goal that I create. Um, I have I used to have a really bad problem of only looking forward and seeing all the things that I have yet to do, and that would feel very overwhelming and I haven't achieved enough. And then I had a mentor who taught me to actually start looking backwards and acknowledge all of the stuff I had done. And I was like, oh my God, I I have done a lot. And they're like, Yeah, I know. Stop beating yourself up. So for me, my next my my definition of success is whatever just that next goal is, while also acknowledging what I previously achieved. So right now, my next definition of success is finishing the rough draft for book three because I am releasing book two on February 2nd. It's done. So I want to celebrate that, but I'm also like, oh, I've got you know 120,000 words to write for book three. Woot. That's my definition right now. I just need to finish that draft.

Jami 14:29

Yeah. I think that's smart. I think that's smart. I think it keeps you grounded and and more focused. It's it's less because a lot of times our goals are very um arbitrary and subjective. Like, you know, it's hard to measure them, but finishing something is that's a tangible goal, you know, so that that's easier to hang on to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah, I try to focus on those smart goals. And I do have a big goal for 2024. It's to grow my author business, and I've broken that down into manageable steps. One of those is for me to get more knowledgeable about the indie author publishing business so I can talk about it more um wisely. Um, I've never been a business person, so that feels daunting, but that's that's part of it. And then I have a schedule for releasing my books this year. So again, as long as I'm releasing those books on schedule and doing my best, uh to me, I'm good.

Jami 15:33

Okay, that's good. Well, what do you wish you'd known about writing and craft? Oh, I love that question.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Um freedom to write crap. Sorry, is that word okay on the air? Okay. Um so I loved getting my master's in writing. I love the craft of writing. I love talking about techniques. I love especially when you can write a scene or you're describing a setting and you're conveying emotion through the setting. I love being able to do those kinds of things. But I left my master's program not knowing how to finish a shitty first draft.

Jami 16:14

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

And that stumped me for about 20 years.

Jami 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Right.

Jami 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And I had this additional layer of pressure on myself because I was, I still am, a professional editor. And while I'm telling my clients to just write the crappy first draft, I myself could not do it because I was like, no, I've got like people can't see me writing that. I'm a professional. And it was terrifying. So when I finally 20 years later, and so this is now, you know, a couple of years ago, I was just tired of putting my dreams on hold. Like I've helped so many other people get their writing out there, and I love doing that. In fact, helping editors, you know, helping authors with their work made me a stronger writer. So I love that. But it was my turn.

Jami 17:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

And so I finally I had the characters talking to me in my head, and it was a funny scene about the character finally just said, I'm the potato. And I couldn't stop laughing. And um I was like, okay, I have 10 minutes because I'm about to head out the door with the kids. I just need to write down that bit about I'm the potato. And I, because I had such a tiny time frame to get it in, I gave myself permission to write crap. And it was just so freeing. And from that moment on, that's that's where the first draft for Ruins and Redemption Redemption came from. I daydreamed that story for like four months. It started as a dream and I couldn't let go of it. And um, and it just kept playing in my head. And when I finally hit the line about I'm a potato, which is not in Ruins and Redemption, but that was where it started. Um, yeah, I I sat down and and a hundred and ten thousand words poured out of me within 12 weeks, I think it was. Yeah. That's yeah.

Sara 18:19

Sometimes it's just that one little phrase or idea or character that will unlock things. And once you find that, then sometimes it's best just to run with it. But it sounds like uh you've done a lot of like the incubating that Becca Sime talks about, where you're thinking about things and you know, you kind of know, but you've got to get over that hurdle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yes.

Sara 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yes. And once I got over that hurdle, the first draft for Ruins and Redemption that was 110,000 words. Um, when I started revising it, then it doubled in size. So that actually began book one and book two. And uh, and I yeah, yeah. And then I did nano Rhymo, and that was 50k for book three.

Sara 18:58

So you were off and running then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah.

Sara 19:02

Well, what about marketing? What do you wish you knew about marketing? Oh, marketing.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I took notes on the side because I knew that I'd be like, oh what? And I'm like, okay, what is it again? Right. Oh, yeah, this is a I was like, that is a good one. Um yeah. Resources. I felt very overwhelmed when I started off with marketing because again, that idea of, like I said, one of my big goals this year is to really get to know the indie author publishing industry and how that works. And there's so many different ad courses out there. And, you know, do you go with Facebook or do you go with Amazon? And how do you use the algorithms to your advantage? And that can get very overwhelming. So I'm fortunate that I'm part of a coaching mastermind run by All Right Well. And I'm starting to tackle, we're starting off actually with a Facebook ad for our reader magnet, and then we're gonna move into Amazon ads. Um, and it's somebody that I know and trust. So like I I know I'm gonna get what I need from here. But I just wish that I had known how many resources were available when I first started writing. How many times as writers, like we think, oh, I'm gonna write a book, and we don't actually think about what comes after that. Yeah. And right. And I fell into that category as well. Um, and so I just wish that I had been more knowledgeable about how ads work and who the big players are that could help me uh hit the ground running when I got started.

Jami 20:35

Right, right. That's great. That's a great answer. That's a great answer. Well, what assumptions did you make at the beginning of your routing career and looking back, did they turn out to be right or wrong?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Oh, I love that. That's such a great question. So 20 years ago, my assumption was that I had to perfect each chapter before I moved on to the next one. And this came from being in the creative writing program with my masters because when you're submitting your work, usually a chapter at a time, for critique among your peers, you stress over making it as perfect as possible. And that's what created that pressure on myself that it had to be perfect before I could move on. Right. So that proved wrong, like horribly wrong. And I wish that we had been given permission to write crap for those chapters so we could learn what a revision, what what that first draft looks like and be okay with it and then see how it evolves over time, rather than just okay, submit us a chapter and make sure it's as perfect as possible, and then we'll comment on it. Um that that would have been an amazing experience to be able to see the progression of other people's first drafts. I wish famous authors would review release their first drafts. So we can also see that if you like if you talk.

unknown 22:04

Right?

Sara 22:05

Yeah. Well, have you I have seen like old, old, old books or notes from people who used to do typing. Like they would type out their manuscripts. And some of the scribbles and stuff that I've seen are just amazing. Like there is like a ton of revision. And imagine doing all that with a typewriter. Just like blows my mind. But yeah, I I don't know that people now would release that because we know we just have all these clean drafts every time we do our edits, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I remember watching the newest version of Little Women, and they showed Jo writing her book and laying all the pages out on the attic floor. Yes. And I was like, oh my God, I can't imagine trying to organize it like that.

Jami 22:49

I got a little bit of a panic attack when I saw that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah.

unknown 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I was like, oh no, my brain would not be able to do no.

unknown 22:57

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Um, and then the second part to that question actually is um because I started writing again, I had another assumption, and it was that um it was the definition of literary fiction. And um and the idea that literary fiction can't be done quickly. That was a big misconception for me. And I again I I love the craft of writing itself. Yeah um but it doesn't have to take three years to write one book, right?

Jami 23:36

Right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, and also just have to be perfect.

Jami 23:40

Yeah. I talked about I talk about, you know, what such a great education I got from the critique group I was in and the the women who really mentored me. And but I will say one of the the only thing I can really think of that wasn't um positive, it wasn't negative either, but you know, it was that idea of you really need to toil over this and make it perfect, and so therefore, it takes a long time to write a book, and so in my head, I still have that thinking of a book written quickly for me is not going to be a good book, and not for anyone else, and everyone else can write their books quickly, and I think they're great, but for me, a book written quickly can't be great, and that's not true, but it is ingrained in me, and I have to fight against that a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

That was ingrained in me for 20, 30 years, I completely understand. And but it was stumping me so much to the point that I was doing nothing, yeah. Yeah, and I had to let go of that idea, and it was just it was nice because when I gave myself the freedom, like I said, to write crap, I noticed that my writing was actually much better because I had that creativity to be myself, right? And I was like, oh, it's actually it's not bad. Like I really love what I'm writing. This is amazing. And I figured out my revision process so that I can really strengthen that. Um, but yeah, that was that was a big one to overcome.

unknown 25:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara 25:13

Yeah, I think all writers to some extent we struggle with like perfectionism and wanting to make it the best we can. And you have to figure out where the point is where it's because I don't think that a manuscript is ever going to be perfect, but you have to get it to the point that you're happy with it. Yes, and that's like you've got to find that when you're first starting out, that's really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yeah.

Sara 25:39

Well, what is the most important lesson you've learned? Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

What was my note on that one?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Oh, right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Oh yeah. Well, that was a good one. All right, see, I knew it. That's why like I knew that I would just blank all of a sudden. So I was like, right. Like, oh yeah, that was a good one. Um, okay. Knowing and embracing my genre. Uh when I so I got my BA inlet from American University. And when I was, you know, studying literature at university level, you know, it's it's the canon, it's all the dead white men. Um, I had some amazing classes with women authors and um uh world literature classes, which I loved. But I started looking down on fantasy. And that was my passion as a child. That's what got me to love writing and reading in the first place.

Jami 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

No, that's not literature. Um, and thank goodness that I was with my friend Brian and we were walking through DC, and he was telling me all about Harry Potter and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe and Lord of the Rings, and he would not stop. Like he was in full geek out mode, and I love him for that. And um, he he he pushed me to the point where we went into a bookstore and they had Harry Potter on sale. It was a buy two, get one 50% off kind of a deal. So I wound up going home with the first three books. I had sworn I would never read this series. And um and I fell in love by the time I got to the third book. First one I was like, eh, okay. Second one, I was like, that's kind of cool. Third one, I was like, I love this. I need to go get a book four. Um, and it just reminded me who I was. So it's holding on to that. And then when I finally really embraced my genre, it was looking at what are the tropes and understanding that and not being beholden to the tropes, but understanding how to make them my own while still meeting readers' expectations. Right, right.

Sara 27:50

Oh, can you give us an example of that? That sounds cool.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

So that's a good one. Um, like it's funny when you work backwards. So my reader magnet is a short story. It's 11,000 words. You can get it on my website, and it's called Promises and Possibilities. And I just wrote the story because I loved it. And then I had to go back and be like, uh, okay, so what tropes apply to this one? And that was really hard to figure out.

SPEAKER_05 28:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Whereas I've seen other writers where they're like, okay, I've done so many XYZ tropes. I think this time I want to do an age gap story.

Jami 28:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

And I'm like, huh? Okay. Um, and they're not creating some sort of campy, cheesy book. It's just that's giving them an idea to start with. And when you understand, like, why is an age gap story, why does that appeal to readers, what's interesting about it? And then you start thinking about it, you're like, oh, you know what? I can visualize two characters who would fall into that category. And this is what they'd be struggling with, and this is their internal struggle and their external struggle. And um, so it's it's not uh, it's not like you're making a book according to a recipe. It's more like you're just getting these ideas for ingredients, and you're like, you know what, that would be a fun one to play with. And then it helps you to change it up so you're not writing the same thing over and over again if you keep that in mind. So that's pretty fun too. Did that answer your question?

Sara 29:23

Yeah. That's fantastic.

Jami 29:25

Yeah. Uh, what's the biggest change you've had to make in your thinking besides writing the first you can write a crappy first draft and uh the previous answer? Do you have any other changes in your thinking you've had to make?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yes. Being an author can be a career. Yeah, that was a huge change for me. Yeah. Um, and uh, thanks to a lot of the writers that I've been hanging out with, and I've been visiting the 20 books to 50k Facebook group and seeing how other writers do it. And I'm not gonna go the method of rapid release. I don't have that in me. That's when people release six to eight books a year, and I'm just like, I would be burned out. Like, I don't, no, thank you. I'm I'm gonna take more time so that I can write what I really love. Um, and that works for them. That is perfectly fine. I was like, that's that's a little too hardcore for me. But I realized that my goal is to release four books a year.

Sara 30:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

And I've learned how that is doable thanks to the program that I'm in all right well, and how to stagger your cover design and making sure you've got your blurb ready. And so it's it's not just working on one book at a time from start to finish. There's an overlap in there, and that makes it easier to do it more compressed.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

And when I learned how to do that, that was when I realized this can actually be a career. But it requires that mindset shift of, you know, I don't feel like writing today. The muse hasn't hit me. And it's like, no, the muse has to like, I'm gonna tell the muse to show up because I've got a deadline and I've got words that I need to do because I want this to be my career.

Sara 31:08

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you mentioned they're writing four books a year, and you're a parent. And one of the things that we had talked about that we could delve into is writing while being a busy stay-at-home and working mom. So, what are your tips around that? How have you uh cracked that code?

SPEAKER_00 31:30

That was a fun one. You know, um, I have a quote that I associate with parents who write, and it's I'm not allowed to do the dishes until I sit down and write for at least 10 minutes. Oh, that's great.

Sara 31:45

I like that personally.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, right? I feel like it does apply to everybody. Um, but it was that mindset shift of my writing is just as important as everything else that I'm doing for my family, if not slightly more, because of the fact that it makes me a better person. Right. And it's not that I'm lowering my kids' priorities down or my husband down on my list and elevating myself to the top, it's more that I'm finally balancing them and I'm acknowledging I need this.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And so when my kids had screen time, that was not my time to do dishes and clean the house and pick up their toys. If my kids were having screen time, I was writing. That became my time. Yeah. Um, I was blessed with my first child that he would give me a glorious three-hour nap. I know it was amazing. It never happened again. My second child was like, nope, half hour later, and no big brother is playing, and I am going down there to play too. Like that was that was gone. Um But one of one of the things that I learned to do was to get an hourly schedule for my day and then block off the times that I knew were impossible for me to write. So right now that's you know, eight o'clock till nine o'clock with getting the kids to school. I can't change that. There is no block in there. Um dinner time with the kids coming home from school, that's like four o'clock till six o'clock. Yeah. And eight o'clock hour is bedtime. And um, so by blocking those out, I then could look at the holes that were left in my schedule. And then based on those holes, I would set three main priorities for myself for the day. It's that rock, paper, sand theory, if you guys are familiar with that, uh, where if you put the sand in the jar first, there's no room for the rocks. But if you put the rocks in first, there's always room for sand. Um, so I would pick my big three rocks, and one of those for me was writing. And then the other two were the things that just had to get done that day. And anything else that got done that day was a bonus, but I wasn't going to drive myself insane trying to do everything on my to-do list because it's impossible. That to-do list is endless. So I had to bump up my writing in order to make it happen.

Sara 34:06

Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah, that's a very smart way to look at it. Yeah. I think we all have things that are like the sand in our lives that can just like take over everything. For me lately, it's email. It's like, you could spend all day doing email. Email.

unknown 34:24

I know.

Sara 34:25

I have a love-hate relationship with it. Yeah. Yeah. But that's very smart. And I think that's the way to tackle it is these are the priorities, and I'll get to this other stuff eventually.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

And giving yourself that permission, like that was massive to say I'm not being selfish that I'm choosing to write while my kids are watching TV and the dishes are sitting in the sink. My house isn't gonna explode because I got to my dishes later. And honestly, I'd rather be doing the dishes when my kids are playing because, like, as much as I love playing with my kids, there's only so much that I can take of me pretending that we're in Minecraft world. So it's like great, I played with you guys, I love you, we've bonded, we've connected. Awesome, I'm gonna go do dishes. And they're like, oh, mom's doing dishes, I'm gonna go do something else. I'm like, yes, you do that.

Jami 35:15

So um yeah, when I'm with my grandkids, like I get really tired of being big beat at the memory uh memory game, the memory card game. Like there's something really demoralizing about three and five-year-olds beating you at the memory game. So uh I walk away. I walk away. I empathize with that. I empathize with that. Oh well, let's talk about Sarah. Did I choke you up? Okay, I'm unmuted now. I'm good. Um, so let's talk about right you uh writing out of depression. Like, you know, if you know me, you know, I've had a year, really two years. And so how is it? How do you do that? Like how, because really and truly, for me, when I started writing, I wrote to escape, like you said, but now it seems really hard, and there's a part of me, because grief is involved in my, you know, in all of my stuff, that feels a little bit guilty about trying to escape. So, what what are your thoughts on just riding out of depression?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

It is a very complicated thing because I was talking to somebody, she was amazing. Her name is Rachel. Um, and she was saying how it's important to acknowledge that you don't want to re-traumatize yourself. So you need to know if you're ready. You can't force yourself to face those things.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

That's I mean, I'm always an advocate for therapy. 100% I had she wasn't doing anything. Um, so just with that caveat in mind, I don't want people to feel like, oh, I'm failing because I didn't do this. No. Um I'm fortunate that I've always had a constitution where I can sob and type at the same time.

Jami 37:14

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

And sometimes that was like I I had a I hit rock bottom when my second was almost one year old. And uh my other one was was approaching four. It was Christmas. I was baking, touched my microphone. I was baking my sixth batch of Christmas cookies. I don't know what I was thinking, it was crazy. Um, that that I'm not gonna get into the soapbox on the pressure of making the perfect holiday for your family, but um my kids had strewn all the toys on the living room floor. I mean, and I'm an organizational nut, so they even took apart all the little bags and all the little separated pieces and took them apart. It looked like a bomb went off in the living room. Yeah, and I lost it. I was screaming like my kids had drove the car through the entire house. And I picked up my four-year-old and I screamed in his face. My spit was flying onto his face, and um, and he just had this look pass over his face, like, I don't care, I'm done. And I flashed back to my dad doing that to me. And I remembered thinking back then, I hate, sorry. I remember thinking back then, I hate you. And I put my kid down and I sobbed hysterically. And I went to the computer while crying, and I Googled mom lost identity, depression, like what is going on here? And that's what set me on the course. I found uh Dana Abrahams Calm the Chaos, and she was doing a free weekly workshop, a free week-long uh workshop on Facebook that was called Find Your Spark. And I was like, Yes, I need to find my spark. There's nothing left inside me. Um, I don't know who I am now anymore, you know, this kind of stuff. And uh I did her course, and at the end of that, lo and behold, it revealed I'm still a writer.

SPEAKER_05 39:15

I was like, what?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

I thought that died like when I had my first kid, what? Um, and so it's kind of the same thing with when I'm really depressed. I just know that if I can get it on the page, it changes my thinking. Like I've had journal entries where it started off with me complaining and saying every horrible thing about how my child was behaving up until the moment where I lost it. Right. And it's all about he's doing all these things and he's terrible and he hates me. And you know, why is it that it is this way? But as I'm getting them out, I started looking at like what was it that he had been dealing with all day?

Jami 40:02

Yeah, yeah, changes your perspective. Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

It changes my perspective every time. And and then by the time I was done with that, I felt so bad for my son. I was like, of course he snapped. Like, look at everything he had been dealing with today.

Jami 40:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

And so he and I were able to go repair. I will say, my husband my son and I our relationship has truly transformed in the last few years. We're still making progress. Um, I just need to put that out there. Could you hear me saying I'm screaming at him all the time, this poor kid. Oh man, I always apologize to him, and we would talk things out, and so you know, um, but the point is it's hard. Like I remember laying in bed and dreading pulling off that blanket and having to do the same thing again. And I had nothing for myself.

Jami 40:55

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

And getting myself to the page, sitting down in front of it, it kind of became a habit where if I had my coffee, I had my notebook, I could sit down at the table, and I could even just write, I don't want to write today. I've got nothing left in me.

SPEAKER_05 41:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

And that would just kind of start the process.

SPEAKER_05 41:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Um, but it's it's not a magic elixir of like, okay, everybody can do this now. You know, it's it's so hard when you're in the middle of it and I know it. I'm just yeah writing about it. Like I've said before, it just helps me to let it go. And it takes time, it's not like I'm better immediately after I'm done writing. I've been dealing with depression actually most of the month of January. I've been in a darker spell lately. Um and this time round, I I sent my pre-order for book three. Like that was terrifying because now the whole that date, I think it kind of did it to be like, can I can I get away with this? Like, is it gonna force me to stick to my right? And so that alone, I was like, I really have to write today because I'm like 30,000 words behind. Woot. Um and luckily being in my world and escaping in it helps me, but it's really hard because then when I close the keyboard, I can feel the depression just sink right back on me. So I've been I've been working through it this moment.

Jami 42:27

Yeah, yeah. So the bottom line is try to put some words down. Try to put some words down. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Try. Yeah. Without judgment. Yes, without judgment, that's the hard part. Yeah. So the hard part. Yeah, that is.

Sara 42:43

Does it help you to think that like does it I'm like I there have been times that I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna write this down and and I'll I can delete it later. Like, or I can, you know, throw away that notebook, like Jamie said. Does that help you to have that perspective that it's okay? I mean, in my mind, I know I hate throwing away words, so I'm probably not gonna want to throw them away.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Um if it's fiction or are we talking journaling? For journaling and writing myself out of depression when I'm more so focused on that I'm fortunate that my husband is so incredibly supportive and he's heard me say the worst things, and he helps. He's he's really my rational half. And I love him for that because I can blurt stuff out and he'll talk me through it and be like, okay, cool. Like, so having it in the journal has already, through my conversations with him, I've already learned that that's not me. And that workshop that I did about find your spark that also really helped us to realize that what we were writing doesn't make us who we are. Right. So I don't have to throw the journal away. I don't need that anymore. For me, it was the big understanding of just because you wrote that down and that's how you were feeling in that moment in time, doesn't mean that's who you. You are all the time.

Sara 44:02

Right. Right. Yeah. Makes sense.

Jami 44:05

Well, uh, what about daydreaming the plot before you write? I love that idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

That is fun. I love doing that. So I daydreamed Ruins and Redemption, like I said, for about three to four months before I sat down and wrote the first draft. And what I found particularly helpful about that is it helped me to kind of think like, okay, well, what is motivating these characters and why are they here in this world? Because like I said, it started with the dream. Um, what is it that they want? What are they chasing? What is their baggage? And I could just start crafting these daydreams about who they are and where they came from, and also how the story would continue. And because I could daydream different scenarios without spending time writing 20 million different versions of a chapter, right? I could just daydream it and be like, ooh, I really like how that one would turn out and where that would lead to in the story. And I became really good at daydreaming the same scene over and over again. So that by the time I sat down to wrote it, write it, it was embedded in my head very well. Yeah. So this, and again, because by the time I would finally sit down to write, I had prior to having children, I thought writing meant that you had hours to sit in front of a computer and perfect every single word that went down. Um that was not my reality anymore.

Jami 45:30

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

So if I've got 30 minutes, I have to be ready to go by the time I sit down and open that. So I've got the scene, I've played through it in my head, I hear some dialogue. I usually choose a key phrase that's like a trigger for the scene. Oh, that's um yeah. And if I can hold on to that key phrase, I'll repeat it in my head many, many, many times. Or if I have to, or if I can, I'll open up my notes app and I'll write down that key phrase.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Uh I've done it when I'm driving. Oh, I daydream a lot when I'm driving. And a little alarming. But uh if I if I'll I'll play that key phrase over and over again in my head so that when I'm ready to sit down, that'll spur the rest of the scene into fruition.

Sara 46:12

Yeah. That's great. I love that. And I do that too in many ways. I think I think through my scenes and I figure out what's the gist of them, you know, and if I can have like a a phrase or like the first line, then I think it's easier for me to get going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Yes, exactly. And I like taking that moment to really think about it before writing because then I can sink into the feelings that the characters have, their body movement, um, what's going on in the setting? Is there something that I could have them doing that would inquire that would incorporate action as well? So it's not just talking to each other all the time. Um and and yeah, so if I could just get those pieces in place, then it flows.

Sara 46:54

Yeah. So you also mentioned rethinking the first chapter. Is that sort of trying it out in different ways and maybe changing certain things as you write?

SPEAKER_00 47:06

So what I found most interesting about the first chapter, uh, and it turns out that a lot of authors do this. My first chapter finally became a placeholder. I had rewritten the first chapter. I I tried writing a book series 20 years ago when I first went to AU. Still have it. God, I really hope I do write that series one day. My husband asked me about that. Um I was like, someday, dear, right now I need to finish the Here Tal saga with ruins and redemption. Like Adeline's story is at the forefront right now. But um uh I used to rewrite the first chapter over and over and over again because it just didn't feel right. And for this time, I tried and I was like, it's not right. And I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna circle over this thing 20 million times. I then left it as a placeholder. And as I continued throughout the story and I saw the the threads of where my characters were going, I started making notes at the beginning of the chapter. I kept a bullet list and like, oh, these are the things that I need to just touch on in the first chapter so that you'll see how it plays out throughout the rest of the book, because I wanted to create that parallel of where she's at at the beginning of the book versus where she's at the end of the book. And so you could see that transformation very clearly. And by keeping an eye on it and then just putting in the bullet list, by the time I was done with the book, I was ready to write that first chapter. And it was easier, so much easier to like make it the way I really wanted it to and what I needed to capture with her because I knew what I, you know, once you know where you they're gonna be, it was easier to write where she started emotionally.

Sara 48:43

Yeah, that's some advanced maneuver, writer maneuver right there.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's funny because I have, you know, I was I always tell my clients, like, celebrate your your bad review, right? It means you're a real writer when you finally so I have one bad review for my book, and it made me laugh because the bad review is like I like don't bother reading this unless you want to know all about anthropology. And she's an anthropologist. My main character is an anthropologist. Okay, maybe the backward where I said an anthropologist unintentionally travels to another world. Like um, but her being an anthropologist is what makes her it's it's how she relates to this other world that she travels to. Right, right. It's a core part of her identity. I can't stand over her being an anthropologist. It's not like she's sitting there giving a lecture for the first 10 hours of the book. Welcome to anthropology 101. No, like she's being in a cave, and you know, like and there's just these little touchstones of what she's going through because her her grandmother just passed away and she has no more family left, and she's going through those emotions while she's working. Um and all of that sets up her journey.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

So yeah. That's just sorry, it still makes me crack up.

Jami 50:11

Well, it's been awesome having you here. I've enjoyed this interview so much. Um, tell us what you think you've done, the best thing you've done to set yourself up for success.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Oh, I love that. Um, prioritizing my writing, my writing while still seeking knowledge. And and it's been interesting with that balance because I try to get my writing in earlier in the day if possible, because we get done what we do first, right? Yeah. Um, I am a night owl though, so there's plenty of times where I'm writing from eight until 10:30 at night.

Jami 50:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

But my my biggest setup for success is that because I can prioritize my writing, I am also making that time in my day to also learn.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

You know, I didn't want to just go into a hole where like I have to spend the next three months only trying to write book three, but I'm also trying to dip into, like I said, 20 books to 50k, or you know, checking out what BookFunnel has to offer, or following Atticus and seeing what they're suggesting and not getting overwhelmed in all of that, but it's like those touch points throughout the week where it's like, okay, what is going on? So I can keep learning and growing.

Sara 51:21

That's awesome. So smart. So smart. Well, tell everyone where they can find you and your podcast. And you have a group for writing parents, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:32

I do, yeah. In Facebook. I have the Parents Who Write Facebook group that coincides with my podcast. And um, I would say anybody who really liked what they were hearing, if they want to hear more of that, then go to your search bar and type in Parents Who Write, come take a look. And uh yeah.

Sara 51:51

And what's your what's your website?

SPEAKER_00 51:53

My website, rnptcanning.com. That's a lot of letters. I know. I know. RN E R I N, and then the P is for Patricia, the T is for Teresa, canning, like a canning factory um dot com.

Sara 52:08

Okay, all right. Well, we will have those links in the show notes. So thank you so much for being here. It was big things.

Jami 52:14

Thanks for coming and being here and sharing your wisdom. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Like I said, I love being able to talk about writing and be able to pass this knowledge forward to help the next person.

Sara 52:26

Great. Perfect. All right. Well, we'll have those notes in the those links in the show notes. And thanks to Alexa Larberg for editing and producing the podcast and Adrian Wiggins for doing the admin. And if you want to support the podcast, if you receive value from it and would like to support us, you can find the link at wish I'd known for writers.com/slash support. See everybody next week.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Bye.

unknown 52:49

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Thanks for listening to the Wish I'd Known Then podcast. We hope this episode inspired you, empowered you, and made you laugh a little bit too. If you loved it, tell your friends about it. And if you feel so inclined, leave us a review. We look forward to being with you again next week.