Building Resilience and Creative Lies Writers Tell Themselves with Katherine Collette

312 / What are the creative lies writers tell themselves, and how can reframing your mindset lead to a long-lasting, resilient writing career? Katherine Collette shares her insights and lessons from both podcasting and publication.

✨ This week’s sponsor is Vellum: http://tryvellum.com/wish

• Why resilience matters more than talent or craft
• The pitfalls of tying self-worth to external validation
• Reframing the role of social media and visibility
• The archetypes of post-publication response
• Finding joy and sustainability in your writing journey

💙 Become a supporter of the podcast https://wishidknownforwriters.com/support or https://wishidknownthenpodcast.substack.com/subscribe

• Access to backlist of exclusive supporter episodes
• Shoutout on a future episode
• Thanks to long-time supporter Tricia O’Malley https://www.triciaomalley.com/

⚡Links:

• Vellum: http://tryvellum.com/wish
• https://www.instagram.com/katherinecollettewriter/
• Free 'long game' strategy call: Strategy Call
• The Inner Game of Writing (mini-course)
  https://info.katherinecollette.com/the-inner-game-of-writing-2026/
• Sara on From Expertise to Authority: https://mattydalrymple.substack.com/p/from-cozies-to-coach-with-sara-rosett
• Sara with Jennifer Hilt on The Two Authors Podcast: https://thetwoauthorschatshow.podbean.com/e/tropes-with-jennifer-hilt-and-sara-rosette/

Transcript

Cold Open And Writing Updates

SPEAKER_00 0:00

To some extent, a book takes as long as it is gonna take. At the same time, there's a lot of ways you can waste a lot of time.

Jami 0:07

Now I'm feeling attacked.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Go ahead. No, go ahead. Go ahead, please. The truth hurts, right?

Jami 0:19

Welcome to the Wished I Know Men podcast. I'm Sarah Rosette. And I'm Jamie Albright. And this week on the show we have Katherine Collette. Yes.

Sara 0:28

It was a great interview. Yes. We talked to Catherine about mindset for writers. She's a book coach and author coach, and she runs through some archetypes that writers go through when they publish in dealing with different circumstances you may encounter.

Jami 0:46

Talked about resilience, pitfalls of trying to find yourself worth and external value validation. Yeah, I could write a book on that one.

Sara 0:54

So that's coming up and it's really good. And quickly, we should mention that our co-responsor this week is Vellum. So thank you, Vellum. We'll talk about them a little bit more. What's going on?

Jami 1:06

Got anything? Nothing. I'm work, I'm just working on launch stuff and working on my blurb, and it may kill me before I get it written. Part of the problem is women's fiction blurbs are shorter than romance blurbs. And okay, the ones I've seen are and I've been told. So I'm trying to keep it, but it's hard to keep it short and get all the emotional stuff in there you want in here. So it's a tricky balance, and I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly. And then because of that, I've asked for way too many opinions, and now I'm like, because external validation thing. So yeah, I'm just in the middle of all that.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yeah.

Jami 1:53

But I did have, I used Claude like just talking about some marketing and stuff like that. And so it made me a schedule. I have a launch schedule, but it put it created one for me, stuff that I put in there, but also a few other things that I'm gonna do that I haven't ever done before. So that was pretty neat, and I think it will help keep me on track. Yeah.

Sara 2:17

Wow, that's great. Yeah. Anything that can help us know what we need to do, and because I forget things, so that's a good deal.

Jami 2:25

Yeah, and it has a little checkbox that I check it and then it marks it off. And then you feel accomplished, right? It's also so satisfying. So anyway, yeah, that's just me. I don't really, yeah, other than that, I'm just waiting on feedback about the book, and then I'll crush out and then I'll fix it. It's a cycle.

Sara 2:51

We just repeat it quite often with each book. Yep. I have a couple of things to talk about this week, or yeah, because we're recording this early because Easter's coming up and we're gonna be you're gonna be out of town and stuff. So we're recording this pretty quickly after our last intro.

Podcast Guest Spots And News

Sara 3:07

So we don't have a ton. I have been on podcasts this week, and two of them are coming out this week. One of them is already out, it's with Maddie Dalrymple. She has a podcast from expertise to authority. And so I talked with her about, I thought it was going to be about writing nonfiction for writers, but she went back even further and she was like, How did you transition to becoming a writer? And then how did you start this kind of sideline of writing nonfiction for writers? So I got some questions that I don't normally get, and that was fun to talk about and think about in a different way. Yeah. And then I also was on the Two Authors podcast. Jennifer Hilt and I were on with them talking about tropes and specifically using tropes and mystery and thriller books. And so that should be out, I believe, this week, if not pr pretty soon. So look for that, and I'll have links in the show notes if those are out when this airs. Yeah.

Jami 4:03

Yeah. So that's always fun. They're always fun. And they're always fun. We saw them last week, so that was exciting and fun too. So yeah, yeah.

Sara 4:14

So it was good to catch up with everybody. I feel I've my social socialization bucket is full this week through Zoom. Yeah, sure's the popular one this week. Just this week. I'll be back in my writing cave soon. Yeah. I had to do a couple of newsletters too. And I was like, writing update, not much has changed. Not much has changed because I've been doing podcasts.

Jami 4:38

When I'm on even doing this one, I know it's coming. It's like, I can't really, I don't feel like I can do anything prior to, and then afterwards I'm tired. So it's like that's just shots.

Sara 4:49

I've got I've gotten better if it's us, if it's our podcast. I'm more relaxed. If it's somebody else's podcast, I do have a hard time focusing on other things. Yeah, exactly.

Vellum Sponsor And Supporter Perks

Jami 5:00

You don't want to look stupid. I know, I get it. We should talk about our corporate sponsor, which is Valan. They're the best.

Sara 5:07

They're amazing, yes. So they're a Mac only software. You can use it to format ebooks and print books, and it'll just take your Word document and create what you need to upload to all the different vendors. It's just so easy to use. I love it. One reason I like it is it's easy to use, but it has all these things you can do with it that are very creative. So if you want to do the special edition interiors, you can do that. I was looking at the page edge templates, you can use those in Vellum, and it's just very cool what you can do with it.

Jami 5:43

Yeah, I know. The thing is that they're so innovative and they listen to authors. And if you ask them, hey, can you do this? Most of the time they try. And they accomplish it. So yeah, they're great. We have so much. Thank you, Vellum, for sponsoring the show.

Sara 6:03

So if you're interested in checking out Vellum, go to tryvellum.com slash wish.

Jami 6:09

And then we we don't have any new supporters this week, but we you were gonna talk about one of our longtime supporters.

Sara 6:17

Yes, that is Trisha O'Malley. So thank you, Trisha. And she is a mystery author. So her, I'll put her link in the show notes if you want to check out her mystery romance.

Jami 6:27

She does yeah, now too. And you should follow Trisha on social media if you don't on Instagram and stuff. She's got a great Instagram. She lives in Scotland. She was living on an island, now she's living in Scotland. So all of her pictures are amazing. And if you would like to become a supporter of the podcast, Sarah, how can they do that?

Sara 6:49

They can go to wish I'd known for writers.com/slash support, or you can find us on Substack. And we should also mention that last week we did a supporter episode. We talked about the truths about book marketing, some myths that are out there, and we did that in the regular episode. And then we did five more truths. We busted five more myths basically for the supporter episode. So now I think we're up to almost 20 supporter episodes. So if you subscribe, then you'll get that backlist of supporter episodes and the shout out on a future episode. Excellent. Very good.

Jami 7:24

Very good. We should probably get on with the podcast because it's great.

Sara 7:27

Yes.

Meet Katherine Collette

Sara 7:28

All right. So here's Catherine. Today we're excited to have Catherine Collette here. Hi, Catherine. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Hi, I'm good. Very happy to be here.

Jami 7:36

We are happy you're here, coming to us from the future. So we appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

It's good stuff on the horizon.

Sara 7:44

That is good. Let me read your bio so people can learn a little bit more about you. Catherine Collette is a novelist published in Australia and internationally. Alongside her own writing, she works with writers both on the practical work of writing and the experience of being a writer, including the surprisingly creative ways we make writing harder than it needs to be. And I think we all identify with that.

Jami 8:04

Yeah, we do. We do. Well, tell us how you got started working with writers.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Sure. So

Validation Traps And Long Game

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I'm a writer myself. I've written four novels. I'm currently working on my fifth. When my debut book came out, it was called The Helpline in 2018. There wasn't a heap of information about the debut author experience. I feel like there's a lot now. But then there wasn't much. And so I had a writer friend who was also a debut author. Her name's Kate Mildenhall. Her book had come out 12 months prior, and the two of us decided we would start a podcast called The First Time. We're no longer doing the podcast, but we did it for six years. And it was all about the first time you publish a book. Right. As it went on, it became about subsequent times as well. But in the beginning, it was about first time publication. And so as part of that, I interviewed, we interviewed sort of 400 odd authors, really about what happens after you make it. And I'm saying make it in inverted words. That podcast was the best education of my life. And the one key thing I took away from it is that the hard part about writing is not writing, it is the thoughts and the feelings and the expectations and all of the other stuff that comes with being a writer.

Jami 9:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Through my own experience, my peers through the podcast, I just recognized this pattern of talented writers stalling. And the reason they stalled had nothing to do with craft. If you get really specific about publication, where they got stuck was that their sense of self was overly tied to external milestones. So what that looked like was a writer would get a book deal, they'd get a great review, even just get early praise on something they were working on. And so their internal narrative became, I am good because this happened. That sounds fine. The problem was this thought embedded underneath that was around wanting more. So if the next good thing doesn't happen, maybe I'm not good. And that appetite for validation is insatiable. I know it of myself. I know it of the writers I work with. I got into coaching as that podcast wound down. And my coaching practice is built out of having been a writer. And the philosophy is work on the book for sure. It the craft is hugely important. But you also have to work on the writer and build endurance and resilience. And an ambition that keeps them like shooting for the stars, but is fatal as well.

Jami 10:44

Yeah, that is fantastic.

Sara 10:47

I think that's really interesting because a lot of times if we struggle, the thought is to turn to craft. Let me learn more about plotting. Let me learn more and that will fix it. And sometimes that's not the answer.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I think resilience is really undersold as the thing that writers need because you can teach people lots of stuff about writing. I don't think an innate talent is a prerequisite to write a book at all. I often say, I think anyone can write a book. And I think anyone can write a book and get it published. I absolutely believe that. The problem is it will take you much, much longer than you wanted to. And if you are willing and can build out the resilience and the patience, you can do it. But not everyone can.

Sara 11:30

What do you wish people knew about what you do as a coach?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

I think what I wish writers knew is that I think there I'm big on the joy of writing. I think writing should be fun. And I think that's why people started writing in the first place. And I think there is nothing better as a writer than a sentence that just feels like perfection so uh adequately captures what uh you are thinking or the picture you're painting or whatever. I do think publication is where things become trickier, and I think there's a real cultural fantasy around it. And the idea, and I know that I had this myself, was that if you get a book published, you've made it. And ever after, it's a happily ever after scenario, you will feel perpetually secure. And I think most people arrive at that milestone and realize that publication does not remove doubt. Right. All it does is it changes the question. And before publication, it's can I do this? After publication, it's can I sustain this? Was it a fluke? Can I do it again? Is it good enough? Yeah. And I think just going back to this resilience piece, the goal is longevity. Careers build over time. And a thing that I think is really helpful for a writer to say to themselves as they work on a book, as one book comes out, is that this book is one of many I will write and create and release across my entire career. Careers are about a body of work. And when you look at it in terms of the long game, it takes the pressure off a single book because a great debut does not set you up for life. Similarly, a really quiet release of a book does not mean you're doomed. And I think one of the things that's really helped me as a writer, as a coach, as a person is this idea of focusing on what you can control and not on what you can't. And so I think in the traditional publishing landscape, you really have no control over sales. You have very little control over whether well, you have no control over whether people like your work, whether they post about it, whether they're like do it on Goodreads or whatever. Like you really have no control over those things, but you can control the effort you put in, the quality of your work, at what point you release it into the world, what you make a review mean. Those are the things that you can control.

Jami 13:50

And that's something I've really been, you know, thinking a lot about. And if you write slowly, then each book becomes you put a lot of pressure on each book. Like for me, I wrote, I published one book a year. So to me, each of those books had to do exceptionally better than the last book. And that's a lot of pressure to put on yourself and put on a book and put on your readers because each book is not for every reader.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I think if you want to grow as a writer, you're always, I feel like it's much more about pursuit than execution. I am always chasing something that is slightly out of reach and trying to catch it. And I think the reality is sometimes you'll grasp it, but sometimes you will try really hard. You'll learn heaps of stuff, but it just it doesn't work as well.

Jami 14:38

Yeah, exactly. Is there anything you wish you'd known about working with authors before you started?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

I think working with authors has taught me a lot about writing. I think a mistake that I realize I made because I recognize it in others is to some extent a book takes as long as it is gonna take. At the same time, there's a lot of ways you can waste a lot of time.

Jami 15:04

Now I'm feeling attacked.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Go ahead. No, go ahead, go ahead, please, the truth hurts, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

I say this having done it. I think from a coaching perspective, writers will often say to me, I'm gonna get my work, my book really good. I'm gonna get it as good as I can get, and then I'm gonna work with you. And I think actually you get your book as good as you can get it by working with me. Yeah. And I think that idea of I'll do it myself as good as I can get, if I had to pinpoint where I've lost years, it's in that moment. Yeah. I think I think you need my shot.

Jami 15:37

That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense, yeah.

Sara 15:40

Yeah, especially a lot of writers, we're isolated and we don't sometimes you can't find the critique group or the people to come alongside you and give you the advice that you need. Like if they write in a different genre than you do. Sometimes you need that extra person to help you get over to unwind those things in the plot and your own issues that you're having with absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I often think writers should be more like athletes, marathon runners specifically. Partly because it's a long, it's a long race, but but also because I think of my friends who've run marathons, and some of them are terrible to begin with. I don't think they've run 5K, some people when they sign up to run a marathon, but they believe they can do it. And they think I'm gonna get a coach and I'm gonna, I'm gonna start small. I don't have to make money to validate this is a pursuit. There are a whole lot of set of rules that marathon runners apply that writers don't. Yeah. I've worked with writers that have books coming out, and two people in their whole life have even known that they've written. The marathon runners I know are telling people from day one. Like such an extraordinary contrast.

Sara 16:50

Yeah.

unknown 16:50

Yeah.

Sara 16:51

It is an interesting comparison too, because no marathon runner starts as a good marathon runner because you have to train. You you just are not born able to run a marathon, and you're not born able to write a book. Even if you have an innate talent, you have to learn a whole bunch of things.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

And that's the expectation. The expectation is that yeah, that you will have to learn. I'm always interested in the money question because I have mixed feelings about money and books. But in terms of time spent, I think often people working on their first book see that getting it published or putting it into the world validates that time. And I think a marathon runner does not feel the same need to validate the time spent. And you can spend a lot of time training for a marathon. Yeah, but there's no, oh, I have to make the Olympics and then I'll be like it wasn't worth it if I didn't win the gold medal.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, that's right.

Sara 17:45

Yeah.

Building Visibility Between Books

Sara 17:46

What do you see authors doing that they do because they think they have to, but really isn't producing results?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I think for me, social media is a big space to fullness. I do think the landscape now is there are lots and lots of authors, and it's difficult to build an audience if all you do is publish a book, go away, disappear, publish a book, do a lot of publicity, go away for a couple of years, write the book, come back out, more publicity. I think that's a hard, that's a hard audience building practice. I think publishers will often say, or the general advice is often around to be on social media and to post. What that can sometimes look like is someone will create a social media account, they will very dutifully post on it. Maybe, I don't know, maybe they'll every three weeks have a post that's I haven't been on here for a while. Here's a book I've read. I love I've got an event. And so to me, I look at that and I do very much understand it. But I look at it and think, if the if the really the underlying idea is that people can find you between books, what are they finding you doing? And if it's if it's posts that you are not invested in that you're not comfortable in on social media, it's probably not a it's probably not a presence you're wanting to sustain or that is very meaningful. And so when I look at my first book, the way I build a presence was through podcasting. I didn't do social media at all. But the first time podcast in Australia, very niche, but very known among writers. And so I think when you think about having a presence that automatically go to social media, is I would question that if social media is not a thing you particularly enjoy doing. If you have to be on social media, or if that's the direction, think about a way that you might enjoy it. Writing advice for me is such a more interesting way of posting on social media than me on an in an awkward photo on a family holiday that I don't want to show on social media. I think it you guys would be the same. The podcast is is a huge way of building this visibility between books how books are released.

Jami 19:57

That's true. And having not released a book in four years because of circumstances, this podcast has kept me in the book world where I wouldn't have been otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Talking to that point too, like you were saying before about that releasing a book every year and the pressure that builds, I think having a podcast where you put episodes out each week or whatever people's regularity is also puts you in the practice of putting work into the world. And some better than others. And some that's a form of building that creative resilience, too.

Jami 20:30

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Very true. That's true.

Jami 20:32

Well, have you noticed any similarities in writers who have been successful over the long haul?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

I think that writers who at last think at that that longevity career is a body of work scale and see one book as an entry point. That's just going off one second. I think I guess my resounding message is one of resilience. I work with a lot of writers who've had a book published, and sadly, a really common word that people use to reflect on that experience is disappointment. And I think if you unpack it, I mean, there's partly the brain orienting to more negative experiences for sure. I think in there is also expectations, though, that people often didn't know that they necessarily had. There's not a lot of transparency around book sales and probably book sales in particular. So when people finally suddenly find out what their book sales were with no context and no sort of element of this is what's normal, this is what's expected, that can be really challenging. So I think the ability to not collapse after disappointment and to set up ways of thinking that sustain you long term is part of endurance. I think there's I do think there's archetypes maybe that people or categories that people fall into in terms of how they respond to publication.

Mindset Archetypes After Publication

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Do you want me to talk to some of those?

Jami 22:00

Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah. I think one very big archetype that emerges is I call it the comparer. So someone who comes out of their publication experience and feels like others achieved or did something that they didn't. And that feeling makes them feel a bit inadequate. This is a jealousy frame, really. I think what's interesting to me about it, A, it shows you what you want. I think lots of people talk to that idea that jealousy is a really useful thing for showing you what you want. But I think also when I unpack that even in myself, the things that I see someone else get something and I feel jealous of that, say it's not necessarily the thing I want. What I want is the feeling that I imagine having that thing gives.

Jami 22:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

So much more about the feeling. And firstly, that feeling is available to me too, because I've experienced the feeling before. But this also comes back to this idea of constantly chasing the feeling.

Jami 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

And feeling like having the thing will give you the feeling and realizing whenever you get the thing that it won't. And so trying to, yeah, trying to, I guess, praise for me is a wonderful thing and a dangerous thing. It's about trying to enjoy the good things that happen, but not rely or require them.

Jami 23:22

Keeping them at a safe distance.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The second way I think people can respond is to catastrophise. This I think this is a big one that we I think sometimes people feed this narrative unintentionally. And the idea is this book has to land, or I will not never get another chance. If this book does not go well, no one will ever want to publish me again. If this book is not a success, I'm not a debut anymore. Yeah, I've failed. I I might as well quit now. And I think if you even unpack that for a second, it it is fairly catastrophic thinking. Yeah. To say that no matter what I do, I could write the best book ever in the whole world and no one would publish it. It look it yeah. It comes back to this idea of seeing one book as make or break. This one book defines my career trajectory.

unknown 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Careers build over time. There are certainly one or two debuts each year, a handful of debuts whose book books skyrocket. I'd argue that comes with its own set of challenges. But mostly careers build over time.

Jami 24:29

Yeah, very true. Yeah. Sorry, I'm making notes because I this really speaks to a lot of the stuff I'm dealing with because I have a book coming out in a few months and it's the first in four years, and I put a lot of pressure on it. I am backing off that pressure some, but I'm sure internally I am not. Even though I want to say that I am, it's hard not to. It's hard not to.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

The thing I always say to myself when a book comes out, whether I'm doing an event or whatever and I'm feeling nervous about it, is I say to myself, How good is this? How good is this if that I have built a life around writing that I have a book coming out into the world? If my childhood self could see me now, they would be absolutely fine. So I say to myself, How good is this? And I say, Just be me. Just be you. My two mantras.

Jami 25:26

Yeah. What's another is there another one?

unknown 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I've got three three more ways I think people respond. One is anti the anticlimax.

Jami 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Another common one. Really excited. It was great. But then is this it? Like it's not what I thought. Yeah. This is really that that arrival fallacy idea, I guess. That expectation of happily ever after. I often think of happily ever after. Joan Silber has written a great book on the art of writing time in fiction. And she just talks about timescales and how a time scale affects a story so much. And she gives the example of Charles and Diana. And so you could have that at a really tight time scale. And it's this lovely story of an unlikely couple meeting and falling in love and getting married. And you could end the story there and it would be a happily ever after. But of course, we know the time, the time scale continues. If you zoom out, it's a very different story. And so I think the process of publishing a book, it's not happily ever after. Lots of great stuff happens. Publishing books has been one of the most satisfying experiences of my life. But it's life doesn't end there. It just opens up a new timescale.

Sara 26:39

Love that. That's a very good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

And the other ones? Okay, success. The success. I think that there are some writers that have a debut experience that knocks it out of the park. This is an experience that people do have, and it's a really wonderful experience. It's it is that fulfillment of hopes and dreams, but it comes with its own different challenges. And specifically, this makes, I think second books are the hardest books you'll ever write, but this particular experience makes writing a second book pretty challenging because there is the fear that you've peaked and that from now on you are regressing. You are actively being worse. And I think there's a real pressure to prove that it wasn't luck. I think you can write defensively. I think you have a lot more people in your ear, an agent, a publisher, at this, it's got to be like this. Want it to be similar, but not too different, stay in the same line, can't be the same book, though. And I think this one is really about coming back to the idea of writers maintaining being in charge of their own careers. And I think when I coach my son's basketball team, he's only 10, and I see players early in their basketball careers, little boys, and one of the things they do early on is they'll have the ball, they'll be under the ring, they'll look at the goal and they'll be like, nah, not doing that. And they will pass it as quick as they can. Get this, someone else take the ball, take the pressure, take the I don't want to be the one that misses. Someone else take it. And I often think about this as a analogy for writing, and that once you start having a team, maybe a publisher or an agent, that there can be a tendency of writers to say, can someone else take the ball? Just tell me what to do. Tell me, like, what kind of book should I write? I've got this idea, I've got this idea. You tell me which one's better. Right. Wanting to get rid of the ball. Whereas my thing is, you got to take the shot. It's your career. You have to be the one that is consistently taking the shot. And I think some of this, the messaging for people who are in this post-success panic, is around the goal being evolution. It's not repetition, it's evolution. You are wanting to constantly evolve.

Jami 28:53

Oh, that's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

And then next the last one is the burnout. And I think we all experience elements of this. This is just so much fatigue, right? Writers like writing. Most of us like sitting in a room by us, just talking sentences and whatnot. You come out of that cave to do publicity, to talk to people, a great privilege and a great joy. But there can be a maybe a disillusionment between the effort you've put in and the reward. You can feel like I never want to do that again. That was too much. I didn't enjoy it. I guess the main reframe here is that you need rest. Rest is part of being a writer. You just can't push and push because inevitably you will fatigue and you will have to stop. You will be forced to stop.

Jami 29:43

Something's gonna suffer.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Something's gonna suffer. Yes. It's gonna be your family, you know. Right. But something will suffer. So I think rest. This has been a learning for me as a writer. Rest is part of the creative process.

Jami 29:56

That's something that we often forget. We it's seen as a bad thing. It's seen as a bad thing. It's not seen as part of the process as healthy, exactly.

Creative Lies About Talent And Time

Sara 30:09

I wanted to talk to you too about you mentioned in the email you sent the creative lies that we tell ourselves. I just thought this is something that we can all identify with. And one you mentioned was, oh, I've wasted so much time. We've touched on that when we talked about the marathon and you know how it takes a long time. And if you don't achieve a certain goal, then you know, it was all a waste. So speak to that and maybe a few of the other lies that we tell ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Let me have a think. What do I think is a lie? I think talent for me is the biggest myth when it comes to creativity. Often when I work with people who are wanting to be published for the first time or working on their first novel, it feels like they have a manuscript and they hand it to me, and I know this feeling of handing something really precious over to someone else to read, to provide feedback. The feeling is this person, I'm the writer, giving it to this other person, this coach, is going to be able to tell me if I have it. If it is going to happen for me, if I have enough talent, if I can get this book to a publishable standard. And the truth is no one can tell you that you have it. No one can look at your work and say, Yeah, keep going because this will get published. Or I wouldn't even bother. When I found my a manuscript the other day, which was one of my really early manuscripts of my first book, it is so bad, like incomprehensible. If I had handed that to anyone, they would have said. In fact, one of my worst experiences, I think, as a writer was one day my husband, whom I love dearly, but it was early in my writing career or my writing life. I had my laptop open and I went to the toilet or make a cup of tea or something, and he looked at was on screen, and he was like, it's not very good. To this day, I still can't believe that he said that. Anyway, I think this impulse of people to look for other people to say, Oh, is this good? Is this publishable? Just doesn't it. When I sit down to write, my second book, the thing that I learned from writing my second book was I was sitting down to write thinking, this has to be good and I should get it out quickly to maintain momentum. Those two sentences are the most paralyzing sentences in the world. You cannot sit down and tell yourself something has to be good and do it quickly. It just is impossible. Now I just tell myself I can make it better. I believe infinitely in my ability to make something better.

Jami 32:41

I made a post today that I was going to work. It needed to revise some number of chapters today. And I said, I know a lot of you hear me say I've finished because my social media goes to writers and non-writers. It's not all writers. And you've heard me say I've finished this book like three times. I have, but I'm just I'm still trying, it's not done until it has to go to the editor. And so I'm still trying to make it better. And so that's the process for me.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

It's challenging talking to non-writers too. I remember when I used to work in a corporate space, people would ask on a weekly basis, how's the book going? Yeah. Nowhere in a week, nothing happens.

Sara 33:23

Yeah, sometimes we do our little weekly updates and we're like, yeah, I've been writing. We've each been writing, and it's not very exciting. There's a reason authors don't wear like the little GoPro cameras. We're just boring. We're just sitting around typing. Yeah. Or mulling things over.

Jami 33:39

Yes. That is exactly true. What actually helps writers stay in the game when motivation runs out?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

I think the answer that comes to top of mind is something like coaching. It's obviously a very self-interested answer. But I think for most people, if you're out of a book contract or first book or wherever you're at, is that nothing happens if you don't finish the book. Absolutely nothing happens. No one's waiting for it. No one's there's no like boss at your door saying, TikTok, where is it? And I think the only person that is impacted if you don't finish the book is you. And there are times when that feels really tolerable, that life is busy. Yes, you want to do it, but it's taken ages, there's ages to go. You've had feedback, you know what you need to do, but it's just the magnitude of that feedback. And so I do think that's where coaching can help. Because if you have said to someone, paid for someone to read your work and you say, I'm gonna send you 10,000 words this month, I've never had a writer not send them. I bet that's the reality. It's I think writers want their work to be read. You don't you actually don't just want to write a book. Sorry, you actually don't just want to write and never have anyone read your work. If you did, you would keep a private journal. Maybe people do that as well. But I think you're working on a book, even though it's vulner makes you feel vulnerable and exposing what you want is to be read. And I think people need to be read along the way.

Jami 35:15

Yeah, I definitely do. I feel like that I work better that way. I work better with the feedback than writing in a vacuum. That's not for me personally, that's not great.

Sara 35:27

Well, we've talked a lot about just like reframing our thinking around a lot of things. So is there any one tip or idea that you think be most important for writers to keep in mind when we're dealing with some of these things?

SPEAKER_00 35:43

For me, I think I think the thoughts that I think often, this is one book of many, I will write across my career. I do think that those stoic principles around focus on what you can control and not on what you can't. And within that, a lot of what you can control is your attitude and what you tell and what you make things mean. So I think that is another one. And I think also just looking at how far you've come, because it's easy to look ahead at how far you have to go, but actually reflecting on what you can write now that you couldn't write a year ago or five years ago. Most of us have wanted to be writers since we were kids. So the fact of writing is fulfilling that kid dream, I think. Yeah, acknowledging how far you've come.

Jami 36:29

Yeah, that's really great.

When Coaching Helps Most

Jami 36:31

How and when should someone reach out to someone like you? Like a ro like at what point in the process should they wait until they're in crisis? Should they do it when they're you know, when there's just a degermation, is that the right word? Of an idea? At what point should someone reach out to a coach like you?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

I have I work with people at different stages. So some people will I probably don't work with people first draft ever of beginning writing career. Right. But people who've written a couple of books, I would work with them on their first draft. I would they would send me 10,000 words a month, we would workshop it and we would work together for six months.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

If people ha have finished a draft, then I work with them on that sort of second and subsequent drafts. I people define drafts in different ways. That point of, I've got some good, I've got the story down, I know what it's about, but often it's things like I know it's not emotionally impactful, even though I know a lot happens. I think that's that can be a real thing. So people who've got a solid draft, people who've written before and want to finish a draft, those are both spaces that I work with people on. My thing is thing, philosophy is that it's about the book, but it's about you. So it's always both. I help people, if we finish the draft and get it to the point of pitching and they're pursuing agents at publishers, then I help them with verbal pitching, is really big in Australia. So we have often have speed dating sessions, agents doing verbal refining a verbal pitch in a submissions package. I help with that as well. And if people have books coming out, then I do interview prep. I love interviewing people. I think interviewing is a great way to build a profile. So navigating that experience. So there's a few different intake points, but often the main intake point is around a manuscript. So either they want to get it down and finish that sort of pretty reasonable first draft, or they have a draft and it's about refinement.

Sara 38:40

And you also you have a strategy call, right? So if somebody's interested in working with you, they can do this free call, right? To just find out where they are, where if it would work.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Thank you for mentioning that, Sarah. Yes, I have a free strategy call. So people can, they're called long game strategy calls because I think writing is all about being in it for the long game. It's just a half-hour call, it's free, you book it with me, and it's really about where are you at, where are you trying to get and what's stopping you from getting the purpose of those calls. If you're not at a point of thinking about coaching, I also have a mini course. It's called The Inner Game of Writing, and it's $99 Australian, so maybe $70 or something, US. It's all about thinking. It's just about how you think about writing. And it looks at different stories that writers tell themselves. Things like, I'm wasting my time. What else? What is the point of writing when we've got climate change and the world is a total bin fire? Yeah. Some of which we've talked a little about today, but they go into much, much more depth. And yeah, great, perfect.

Jami 39:51

Yeah. This is great. This has been so helpful. I've taken lots of notes.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Oh, yeah.

Jami 39:57

Yeah. I just think it's so great. And for any for anybody at any point along the way, just stepping back and reevaluating why we're doing what we're doing and checking our mindset and checking our attitudes and how is that affecting our writing? I think that's important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Because it all does, it all affects. Absolutely does. I think when you are not in a good headspace and writing, the work becomes so constrained. It's so risk averse. And you are constantly thinking of your audience. And you just can't write while also thinking, what is this reviewer gonna say? What is my mother gonna say?

Writing Personal Stories Without Fear

Jami 40:40

Yeah, like for me, right now, I'm writing uh the story I'm writing is different than I've anything I've ever written. I write small town romantic comedies. The story I'm writing is a women's fiction sort of book based on the last four to six months of my sister's life. And so I took a real story, yeah, and I've made it a fictional story, but it still has a lot of real elements. The realest, the most real of them all is the character that's dying. Yeah, they carry so if so I've carried for a lot of months. I've been in therapy for this, thankfully, that if people don't like this book, that means they don't like my dead sister. And that's a lot of pressure to put on a book. Yes, and it's not true.

Sara 41:29

That's one of those lies we tell ourselves.

Jami 41:31

Yeah, that's not true because the book is not, it's not my sister in the book, it's just based on her, but it's still there's a lot of emotion tied up in that, and it's caused me not to, it's caused me to sit back and not write for some days because I'm like, what's the point? If people don't like her, if they don't like the book, then what kind of emotional trauma is this gonna cause me? Cause my family, all of that. And because it is fictional, I've had to write things that family members say and do that they didn't really say or do. Are they going to be offended because they see a little bit of themselves in this book? But and I've had to let all of that go. If I'm gonna write a book, the biggest is if they don't like this book, they'll they don't like my dead sister. It'll do your head in for sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

What a lot of pressure.

Jami 42:23

Yeah, yeah. Glad you can recognize I really have backed off from that, and I really can say that. Of course, I want it to do well because it is a special, it's a very special story. It's a bit, but it is not it, it will not determine whether I write another book or not. This is if I don't write another book, it's because I've chosen that that I'm not gonna write another book. It's not based on the fact that the book succeeds or fails.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

It can also be your favorite book, you know. Like it can be a book you love that no one else gets.

Jami 42:57

Yeah, all of these things I have been, yeah, for the last almost decade and a half. Yes, they've risen, all these things have resonated. So

Where To Find Katherine

Jami 43:06

yeah. We just want to give our listeners an opportunity to know where they can find out about you, about your mini course, about all of the things. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

I think there will be some links in the show notes, but otherwise, check me out on Instagram. So I'm at Katherine Collett Writer.

Jami 43:24

Okay. And that's two L's and two T's.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yes, yes. That's right.

Jami 43:29

Perfect.

Sara 43:29

Thanks for being here today. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

Sara 43:33

It was wonderful. We will have all those links in the show notes, and they will be at wish I knowwriters.com. And you can go to that same link slash support to support the podcast or find us on Substack. And don't forget, our sponsor this week is Vellum, and we will see everybody next time. Bye bye.