115: Is Formula Harmful? Recalls, Switching Brands, and What the Evidence Actually Says

In this episode, Afif and Anne unpack the recent formula recalls in Ireland and internationally, explaining what happened, what parents should do, and why recalls usually mean safety systems are working. They discuss switching formula brands, what changes are normal, when not to switch (especially with prescribed formulas), and clear guidance on safe formula prep. Finally, they tackle the big question: is formula harmful? They explain what the research actually shows about breast milk vs formula, why many headline claims are muddied by confounders, and why parents shouldn’t feel guilt or fear about feeding their baby Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

This show is part of the Headstuff Podcast Network.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

The Baby Tribe is proudly sponsored by Happytummy.ie, the exclusive distributor of Bayagaya Probiotics, providing support for gut and oral health for the whole family. Is formula harmful? Well, if you've been online for more than four minutes as a new parent, the answer apparently ranges from liquid gold alternative to basically bleach in a tin. Today on the Baby Tribe, we're doing something radical. We're slowing down, we're talking about the recent formula recalls in Ireland and internationally, what that actually means for families and why a recall is scary but not a sign that the entire system is broken. We'll also talk about switching formula brands, what is normal, what is not, and when you absolutely should not be messing around with changing formulas. And finally, we're tackling the big one, what the research really shows about breast milk versus formula. We are absolutely acknowledging the real benefits of breastfeeding while also stepping away from the idea that formula is harmful, risky, or something parents should apologize for. So there's no fear-mongering, no pretending off-feeding choices are identical, just evidence, context, and a bit of sanity. So let's do it. And before we get started, I just want to thank happytummy.ie for sponsoring the Baby Tribe podcast. And I've started taking the gum probiotic one and it's really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Good. Yeah. The dental one, the prodentist one. It looks like it's really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, no, it is. I'm really, really, really, really enjoying it. So, Anne, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I'm good. I'm good. I see that we are grasping the nettle and dealing with the spicy topics like we promised.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Well, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

And we're gonna keep doing this until we get cancelled, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Well, the problem is you're uncancellable because there's nothing to cancel with you because you're not on social media. No. I'm the one that is putting my life on the line here for our dear listeners.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

For your your life on the line. Yeah, yeah. My uh because I'm likely to walk away from you. Am I not your life though?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

No, no? You are you are yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Me and the kids and buddy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Well remember them. Buddy anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Buddy anyway, yeah, fair.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Buddy anyway. Now, and I'm really tired. I think we need to start going to bed earlier because you stay up, you stay up quite late watching your shows.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Oh my god, Fife. And I'm not doing this now.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I wait for you to go to bed.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

You're more than able to put yourself to bed if you'd like to go, Feef. Love.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

No, but like I can't go to bed knowing that's a good thing. No, it's weird.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

That's weird. That is weird. Why is it weird? Just put yourself to bed like a normal human adult, will you?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

And sometimes I check on her to see, oh, she's still watching TV, she's still watching TV. Then I peek in and she's been asleep for like an hour.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Yeah, and I might even be watching TV.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

No. She leaves, she leaves, she leaves the TV on.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yeah, to keep me company while I read sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah, I know. I know. It's just very confusing. But I mean, I'm going to bed really early tonight. And you'll come and you're coming with me. Anyway, we're gonna talk about formulas today.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah. I'm actually glad we're talking about this, to be honest. And I know we've done what we've done kind of formula, well, no, we've kind of we've done breastfeeding and stuff like that before. A little bit about formula, but I actually think, yeah, just doing a straightforward, concise, objective information piece is very good.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Well, Katie and I at the very, very start of the Baby Tribe did a couple of formula episodes which were, I think, very informative and people still listen to them. But the purpose of today's ones is to reorient ourselves and talk about formula's been in the forefront of the news for a while. And I'm seeing people capitalizing on this, unfortunately, on Instagram and other social media networks where they are outlining their risks of formula and ah, so not the actual risks associated with the contaminated batches.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

They're now using it to like paint all formula as bad.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Well, they're framing formula as risky, yeah, which which I really hate. And again, they're capitalizing on. No, absolutely not. And I, you know, challenge some of it sometimes on social media, but I think it's important to talk about it. So for today's episode, we're gonna talk about three different things to do with formula. We're gonna talk about the formula recall, we're gonna talk about can you switch formula brands if you want to? And we're gonna finally talk about whether formula is harmful for your baby or not. What about the formula recall? So, as a parent, you obviously are quite worried when you're hearing about these formula recalls that are happening, and it may sow doubt in I guess the manufacturing process, or again, I've seen these um posts on social media saying when are formula companies going to be held um accountable accountable or to a higher standard. Now, I'm not saying this defending formula companies, I'm not in the business of you know defending them. However, just to kind of maybe start with the reason there are recalls is because they are made accountable. It is because they the standard of the food monitoring, it's one of the most monitored food items out there.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Good, unrightly so.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Unrightly so, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

But again, the the European legislation on all of this is very, very stringent.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And obviously the reporting mechanisms for any manufacturing issues are working. So, what exactly happened?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Basically, there has been a recall initially of formula products initially manufactured by Nestle, and then Denone was involved as well. And because these manufacturers that are based in Ireland manufacture formula for pretty much good chunks of the world, good chunks of the world, the recall has extended to many countries around the world as far as far as Singapore and beyond.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Okay, and is it that the same kind of factories were making multiple milk brands, or is it that different milk brands and different factories were sourcing ingredients from the same sources internationally?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Both basically. Okay, yeah. So the culprit was arachidonic acid oil that they imported from China that appeared to contain a toxin called cereolide, I think that's how it's pronounced.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Cereulide, yeah. Yeah. From Bacillus cereus.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

It's very serious.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Stop now. No, so bacillus cereus is a bacteria that produces this toxin. Yes. Cereolide.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Um, it doesn't mean that there's bacteria in the milk, though.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yes, but they think that they may be this toxin in the milk. Now, the word toxin may be scary.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Which had been produced by bacteria before it was sterilized.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

And the toxin remained.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Correct. Okay. Now the word toxin sounds scary, but what we mean by toxin is it is not a bacteria that is potentially present in those milk products. It is um a chemical they produce. A chemical that they produce that can cause vomiting and diarrhea.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Right. The reason bacteria produce this is because it promotes their spread, right? You ingest it.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Oh, yeah, and then it goes everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

You vomit.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

It goes everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

You also explode from the other end. And you and this is how bacteria survive.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah, they spread around then to other people. And actually, Bacillus cereus is actually most associated with um kind of reheated rice and those kind of foods. Yeah. So, you know, when people say, Oh my god, you have to make sure that you reheat your rice and bring it to a really high temperature and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's to kill the bacillus cereus. Yeah. Okay. But if the toxin is already in the rice, you can still get sick because it is heat resistant. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

The toxin is heat resistant, extremely heat resistant. So do you remember ever having something and then feeling very unwell and becoming violently unwell for about 24 hours and then you're a grand.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, and but and then if it happens really soon after you've eaten that food, it's probably toxin mediated because it was purely bacteria.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Like, I don't know, loads of other reactive food poisoning bacteria. They take a little while to set in.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah, they take a little while to build up in your system and produce the toxin that eventually, but if you ingest the toxin directly, you can become ill very quickly.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

And then you're kind of grand.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

You're grand because you don't have any bacteria necessarily. It's a toxin that's made you see.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah. So here's a tip. The next time you maybe have a little bit too much to drink, and you hung over the next day and you become violently unwell in order to seem it's a cerellide. Clearly, it's definitely I must have ingested cerellide. Yeah, that's 100%. Exactly. So there's the tip of the day. So the reason there was a recall is as we said, the cerolide is quite heat resistant. So the method that we use to prepare formula, okay, and we'll talk about that in a minute, doesn't get rid of the toxin.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

So how heat resistant is it?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

It is so it doesn't get destroyed by mixing it at 100 degrees.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

So boiling water won't get rid of it, hence the recall, because it will remain in the milk.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Now, although there has been a recall, so far, to my knowledge, at the time of recording, there hasn't been a reported case of a child or or or baby becoming unwell because of this. Okay. So the recall is kind of precautionary.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

It's preempting issues.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yes, exactly. And what families should do today is it's really important to check the batch number because we talked about it's cost brands. Yes, it is not brand dependent at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

So it is batch dependent. So check the batch number, um, check the FSAI website, and that gives you the different batches that may be affected, and you can always go back to wherever you bought the milk and get a full refund. Okay, and a lot of them are saying you don't even need a receipt, okay? So that's what you should do today. That doesn't mean that um all of the formulas are affected. That doesn't mean that the manufacturing process was a problem.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

I suppose there was a problem with one of the ingredients.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

And then when they did their screening, it identified the issue. Have there been cases internationally of babies being sick?

SPEAKER_01 10:25

So there have been two babies that unfortunately passed away in France that they are investigating. Okay. Currently, there is no link between that they both consumed batches that contain the serolite. However, they are not proven link. There's no proven link, right? And they're isolated. There hasn't been any more cases. Okay. You would anticipate that they may there'd be more widespread cases, not of death but of vomiting and diarrhea if it was a real problem. But at the moment it doesn't appear to be.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

So unfortunately, these two babies became very unwell, and because of a potential link, it's been fully investigated. Exactly. But it's also potential potentially true that it could have been a different cause that caused them to be called to become unwell.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, and again, it's it's it's a it's a sort of due diligent thing that people are doing in terms of it. So um basically, people may ask why didn't they check for this before the formula was distributed to the market? You know, why are they doing a recall now?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Well, I assume that they it's it's the same with any manufacturing industry that they check X amount of um X amount of I don't know products per batch.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yes, they do that after they distribute it. However, there are also checks that happen beforehand.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

So they check everything before they start manufacturing the milk.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

And those initial checks did not detect anything. Okay. And the later, more s more sensitive batch checks, it is what picked them up.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

So it is another, I guess, safety layer that they do after they distribute milk to make sure that the milk is fine. And I guess this should reassure parents that the checks and balances are there even after they distribute milk that they deem safe while they're manufacturing. So these are all measures. It's not a problem. An ongoing quality control. It doesn't just stop when it hits the shelf. Yes, it's not a system in free fall. It is a I guess a demonstration that the checks and balances work, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

The the quality control.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Yes. And the risk of a baby becoming unwell after ingesting the batches that are affected is extremely low.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Okay. How much of this toxin is in the milk? Is it like if it went through if the ingredients and then the initial checks all passed, is it a very low concentration, or is it, you know, because obviously the original screening was fine.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

It's likely traces. You know, tiny trace amounts. So what should the parents watch out for? It's vomiting and diarrhea that can happen very quickly, and then it usually settles within 24 hours.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

The issue is that if babies have that sounds like about ha mo half the things that kids get these days.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yes, but in babies, babies can get dehydrated very quickly. Okay. And that's where the issue is. Whereas in an older child where you can maybe manage them at home with sips of water or an electrolyte solution and maybe small amounts of feeds, you can't do that with babies because if they're vomiting everything, they can get dehydrated very quickly. And that's why you need to be a bit vigilant about this.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

But I think anybody who has a young baby who's got significant vomiting and diarrhea, they're going to be taking them to get checked out anyway.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Right? And if this is a milk-associated toxin-mediated problem, once you guard against the diarrhea and the vomiting and the dehydration and it runs its course, is the baby then likely to remain well afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Okay. So it's not like you know the way people hear about like salmonella food poisoning associated with chicken or something like that. It's not like that because it's not a bacterial infection, it's not going to keep on going.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

No, it's it's a very short-lived, but it could be significant illness. Okay. Okay. If you have switched batches already and your baby has consumed an affected batch, you know, a few days ago or even a couple of days ago, then the danger window is gone.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

So if you don't get symptoms within 24 hours of consuming the affected formula, you're not going to get symptoms.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

And I think that's reassuring for parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

But do we think that they've captured like all the batches that are affected, or is the warning going to continue to move across brands and increase batch numbers?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

I mean, we don't know. I mean, initially, when the first recall happened, you remember I told you the nature of these things is that they will expand. They may test more rigorously, more batches and things like that, and they may just be a bit more vigilant to recall more batches just to be safe. So the nature of these things is that there's usually an increased recall. Do you remember the spinach one that happened not so long ago?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

I'm still convinced we were sick from that, but anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, initially it was one and then it expanded and then it sort of died down. And I think that's what might happen here as well. We're taking a quick break to thank happytummy.ie, the official distributor of Biogaia probiotics, for supporting the baby tribe.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

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SPEAKER_01 15:45

Visit happytummy.ie to learn more and give your crew the gift of a happy tummy and a healthy smile. Hey there, Baby Tribe listeners. Did you know that we've got some amazing bonus material just for you? Baby Tribe Shorts is here. Quick evidence-based breakdown of all things science when it comes to mum and baby. You can find it as part of the Headstuff Podcast Network. You can subscribe to Headstuff Plus for as little as 5 Euro a month. We'll give you quick evidence-based takes on science behind maternal and infant health.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

And the best part is it's just 5 euro a month which helps support us and supports Headstuff and all the incredible shows they produce.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

You can find all the details on Headstuff Podcasts.com. So parents might ask, okay, fine, I don't want to give the brand that is affected by the batch.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah, so I think likely a significant or a proportion of parents may decide to either change brands or to if if they're combin like combination feeding with um breast and bottle may decide to move more back to breast milk or whatever's available. So what what can they do to try and give themselves options?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah, first of all, I mean if you're combination feeding, please don't put yourself under pressure to up the amount of breastfeeding that you're doing. If that's going to impact on your well-being, your mental health, your time, do not feel that pressure. Because again, I've seen this on social media saying just go back to breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

I know. You see, this is my issue. I just there's enough guilt, guilt mongering out there like for for new mothers or parents of very young children who are bloody tired, yeah. Um, that if if they're not breastfeeding their child enough or at all, you know, so it's just it's just uh opportunism, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

It is opportunism, and you're seeing people saying, See, see, I told you you should have breastfed, see, because look what happens when you give formula, and that really irks me. I mean, you know, we had, I guess, when our kids were young, um one of our kids was a combination, yeah, mostly formula.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Like our first child, I found it very hard to breastfeed her. And a fief was not a lactation consultant at the time, and a fief hadn't a clue.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

So I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

I know, that's okay. I'm just saying some people don't think that I had this like lactation consultant at home. I didn't, um, and I found it really, really hard. And we combo fed her, and I think I weaned her at about like I fully weaned her at about four months because it was just so difficult.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

And you felt guilty.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Oh my god, yeah. But then with our son, he was just so much easier to feed. He was a different baby, he'd a different latch. I was a little bit less anxious as a mother. My first had come through combo feeding and weaning out like from breast milk at about four months and was just fine. Thanks a million. Yeah. So I kind of I think I felt less guilty overall, so it's probably more relaxed going into it as well. Yeah. For people who are choosing to bottle feed their babies, like, and they decide to move away from a specific brand because of this. What's the easiest thing to do? What like what are the options?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

So you can just switch brands, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

I know, but you see, I remember, I remember our first was quite fussy. That's one of the reasons she was hard to breastfeed. So she was quite fussy about things. Now it could have been that that's just how she was as a baby, and I suspect retrospectively that's probably it. She was just a fussy baby.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

She didn't lick it off the floor.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

That's true, she got it from you. But um he's disgusted. That backfired. I know. So, like it I would have worried a lot, actually, if to be honest, if I was trying to switch brands with her. And I know from talking to other mothers at the time who had fussy babies, and they were trying to find, oh, do I need to use this kind of milk or that kind of milk? And there's a million different bits of advice and a whole host of advertising being aimed at you. So when you say that babies, you can just switch brands, can you really? Right. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

That was a lovely segue into my rant about switching.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Okay, good. Rant away.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So there is this perception that switching brands is more complicated than switching mortgages. It is not.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Each brand will make you think subliminally that switching away from their brand is bad.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Right? And that their brand is best. And unfortunately, there are some healthcare providers that would also make you think that switching brands is bad for baby. Right? Here's the news flash. Babies aren't the brand snobs. The stage one formulas are so tightly regulated by the EU that the macro and micronutrients in them is almost identical from brand to brand.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

What about the ones that are the for hungry babies? Those ones.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

So just cast those aside for now. Okay. We will address that in a minute, right? But if your baby is on a regular stage one formula, be it just a plain stage one, or has a fancy name after it, advanced, organic, gold, they're all the same.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

They're all the same.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Right. The reason they have all of these extra names, fancy names in front of them is to charge you more.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Okay. So it's basically like if broccoli comes from a fancy looking field or broccoli comes from a less fancy field next door, it's still broccoli.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

It is still broccoli. Gotcha. Yes. And we spoke about this at the start. Some manufacturers will do several brands of the same milk.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

And are they the actual same? Yes. And do they come from the same? Like literally, it's just the packaging. Look at the look at the recall.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

They just spend more on the advertising for some of them. The recall is across brands. What does that tell you?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Well, it it could be just mean that the arachidonic acid was an essential nutrient or essential component of making the milk. Therefore it had to be used. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

So you can switch brands, right? Okay. It is not harmful to switch brands.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

And I'm talking about the run of milk stage one.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

If your baby is on stage two, yeah. Still switch brands if you want. Okay. Okay. Now, a small number of babies, like fuzzy babies, as you label them, right? May have a bit more gassiness for a couple of days.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

But they may their their stool color may change.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Um, they may take slightly less milk for a couple of days, but those are a minority of babies.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

And that is the extent of what might happen.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

So feel free to change brands, right? I'm not gonna tell you which brands to pick. They're all the same to me.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Just check the batches.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Just check the batches. And if if if it makes you feel better to switch brands, absolutely do. To be honest with you, if it was my baby, I would switch away from the brand that is affected by batches, by batch recalls. And I would just pick up sure it's multiple brands now. Yeah, but you can pick one that hasn't been affected. If you want, so there is no evidence that switching to a different formula does any good or any harm. Right?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

I'd probably stay with the same and just check the batches.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Fine, we're very fussy baby. We're doing people. The one thing I would say is do fight over it. Do not accidentally switch stage. I've had a couple of parents where their babies are around four or five months saying, Can I just switch to stage two from now? No. The answer is no. You cannot give stage two before six months of age. Okay. It has double the amount of iron in it, and that's too much iron for a baby that is less than six months of age.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

In fact, the recommendation is that you stick with stage one formula until a year of age.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

After which you can switch to whole fat cow milk.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Simple. If you want to avail of the discounts that can be applied to stage two. Stage two, you can switch from six months.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

And that that is fine.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

So that's important. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yes. Again, what I said does not apply if your child is on a specialized formula.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

So what about the hungry baby formulas? Not the not the specialized kind of hydrolyzed protein-e kind of prescription ones. Yes. But the stuff that's still on the supermarket shelves, but it's for hungry babies, all of that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Hungry baby formulas should be avoided at all costs. They're horrendous.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Oh, okay. So not related to the recall. Not related to the record.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

You just don't you don't agree with them. Don't like hungry baby formulas. Go back to our very first or second episode of the baby tribe, and I tell you why, basically. Don't like them. In short, hungry baby formulas. So the the the makeup of the protein in formulas is 60% whey, 40% casein.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Right? Whey is the more liquidy protein. Casein is the more goopy protein that sits in your tummy and forms a gelatinous goop and it's long takes longer to digest. Hungry baby formulas are 80% casein, 20% whey. They are made to keep your baby fuller for longer, to help them sleep. All bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

He feels strongly about this, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_01 24:57

I do, sorry. Yeah. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't, um, I wouldn't bother with hungry baby formulas. Go back to the old episode and and you'll heal the full, you'll hear the full the full-on rant. So, in short, you can just switch formulas.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Switch formulas if you wish. Check batches. Yes. Uh, batch numbers. Um, don't feel guilty about bottle feed feeding your child if that's what's right for you and your family. Yeah um and be aware that if they do, if you do have a baby who is nauseous or sorry, who is vomiting or diarrhea, that they just get them checked out. And if it is potentially related to this cerealide toxin, yeah, that it will pass.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah. Again, just to emphasize if your baby is on a special preterm formula or is it has cow milk protein allergy and is on a hydrolyzed formula and a formula that has been prescribed by your doctor, go back to them. Yes, go back to the person who prescribed it. Okay, we are talking about run-of-the-mill stage one formulas on the supermarket shelves, not on the pharmacy shelves. Right for the final segment, um, honey bunch.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

We got here we got here very fast.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Is formula harmful?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Oh, yeah, let's address this. So risks benefit.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I heard somebody recently say breast milk is the biological norm. You know what else is a biological norm? Death.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Oh, stop! Oh my god, that took a turn for the grim there very, very quickly. No, why do you think that that that's an okay analogy in this episode?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Let me let me let me caveat. I'm a huge advocate of breastfeeding. I think breastfeeding is a fantastic thing to do. I think it has so many benefits for mom and baby and breast milk is a little bit magic. It is a little bit magic and it's fantastic. We're not here to bash breastfeeding. No, not at all. And I'm a lactation consultant, so all of you lactation consultants out there, don't come at me.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Ah, they'll do that anyway.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

I know people love coming at me. But what I want to talk about is maybe the language that is being used sometimes, yeah, and reframing things in an objective way. And again, I'm not here to shy away from the differences between formula and breast milk. Okay, but I hate the term formula is harmful, it is not harmful.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah, I think um it's just not accurate.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, formula is a regulated substitute designed to meet nutritional needs, yes, and that is factually accurate.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

It's good food, yes, and most long-term statements, formula causes X claims come from observational studies where family socioeconomic factors are tangled up with feeding choices.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

So a lot of the time when you look at studies comparing formula to breastfeeding, there's so many other confounders.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

That breastfeeding can sometimes be a proxy for wellness or affluence or support or time off work. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

How many kids are at home?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, exactly. Now, where breastfeeding benefits are the clearest, right? And I'll add to that where formula is not harmful, just different, it comes from studies looking at preterm babies.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

So vulnerable babies.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Vulnerable babies, okay. So we know, and this is my bread and butter, that babies that receive human milk, preferably mothers their mother's own milk, preterm babies, do better than babies that receive a formula.

unknown 28:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Now, when you say do better, what do you mean by do better?

SPEAKER_01 28:41

So several things. There's less um necrotizing entrocolitis, which is a devastating tummy infection that preterm babies get.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

They have less infections, they have shorter hospital stay.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

And they have less um incidence of chronic lung disease, which is the kind of condition of lung prematurity that babies get.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

So the magic bits in breast milk that aren't really just about food supports immature and vulnerable organ systems in a preterm baby. That's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

We also know that preterm babies that have received their mother's own milk during their neonatal intensive care state by a year of age, their heart function is much closer to term babies.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

When you compare it to babies that are preterm that are received predominantly formula.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Okay. Donor milk kind of sits in between.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Which shows you that the biological specificity of breast milk.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

So, like it is that magic thing again that we were talking about that is specific to all of those weird biological cues that we can't see that a mother's body just responds to.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

You know, it's not like you sit down and go, hmm, the baby looks like they might have a snotty nose. I think I'm going to program my boobs a specific way. It already happens. Yeah. It happens without even thinking about it. So that's the magic bit. But so it still doesn't take away from the fact that formula as a food is not harmful.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

No, it is not harmful. No. And anybody that says that it's harmful has an agenda. Has an agenda, right? And you have to sort of take those statements in context, right? When the World Health Organization talks about breastfeeding being the best and safest way of feeding your children, and when they talk about the potential harms of formula, right? What they mean is in resource-poor countries, when the access to clean water is not there, when um you know preparation of clean formula um is an issue. And yes, that's when formula can potentially be harmful if you don't prepare it well. And you know, and you have incorrect mixing, you have potentially non-sterile methods of preparing milk, that's when the harm comes. Yeah. Right. So that's the only time when I would use that formula can be potentially harmful if not prepared properly. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

And actually, let's And actually, because we're doing an episode on the milk recall, people are gonna sit there going, you can't say that formula is not happen not harmful when you've done an episode on milk recall. Yeah. But it's not like we're saying formula feeding in principle is not harmful once it's prepared appropriately and the food stuff itself is safe.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

There has been large-scale studies using sibling analysis to look at the differences. Now, what is sibling analysis? Sibling analysis is when you look at a family that has two children and one child was exposed to the thing that you're interested in, and the other child wasn't purely by chance. It wasn't an experiment. You didn't say to the parents, feed this child formula, feed this child breast milk.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

It's like our kids.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Kind of like our kids.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yeah, because our first was exposed to formula and the second was exclusively breast milk.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

And if anything, the one exposed to formula is much cleverer than the other one.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Oh stop, that's not true at all. He's clever, he's just heedless. There's a difference.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Well, there you go. See? So so when that happens, right, the benefits of breast milk or the differences in outcomes between breast milk and formula reduce significantly. They're still there, but the signal attenuates.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Okay. So there's huge if you're raised in the same household with from the same genetic pool.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yes. So that tells you that other factors play an equally important role in how a child develops.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

And again, I'm not playing down the benefits of breast milk, but what I'm saying it is just one aspect of how children turn out.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

And the one thing I say to all the families that are riddled with guilt if they cannot breastfeed, if for some reason family circumstances, life, whatever, decide to introduce formula or wean away from breast milk onto formula and their kids are still relatively young. I will say to them your 18-year-old child will be exactly the same, regardless of what decision you make right now about feeding.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Right? And that's for that individual family, that is true.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Right? A lot of the time when we look at these things, they are on a population level.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yeah, you see, it comes down to like WHO, it's a world health organization. Yeah. And there's massive differences across countries, across cultures, across populations, across races, across so many things. Yeah. But what they have to do is issue in very, very broad strokes.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah. And so I hope that makes people feel a little bit better. One thing we didn't cover that I really want to cover is we spoke about how the real harm in terms of formula comes from unsafe prep.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yeah, so let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

And also the shame-based messaging that makes parents terrified to feed their baby, right? That's one of the harms. Because if you are so scared of giving your baby formula and they're not gaining weight, like I've had families and they come to me at six weeks of age and they're less than their birth weight, the baby. At six weeks.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

At six weeks.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Because they're so afraid of giving formula.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Like we've talked about this at two weeks, which is different. Yes. But at six weeks.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

And they still they still haven't regained their birth weight. Yeah. Because that's far worse for a baby than being given a bottle. Not that giving a bottle is bad.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

No.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

But you know, I'm just trying to sort of orient it. Let's talk about milk prep. Milk prep, let's admit it, is a pain in the hole.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Oh my god, the best thing about breastfeeding was just being able to throw my son on mute as soon as he cried. Yes. And not have to drag myself out of bed and down and start boiling a kettle and heating things up.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

And waiting.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Yeah, with a screaming child in your arms. Oh, that was stressful. That bit, that bit I found hard.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah. So let me bring you down. Let me bring you. Ask or ask me what are the principles of safe milk about.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

So it's been a while, Afife, since I have prepped any bottles. So remind me again, I'm gonna get you to go through this bit because I've forgotten.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Okay. So there are some basic things that you need to adhere to. And I get a lot of questions about can I use this, can I use that, can I use the other?

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Right?

SPEAKER_01 35:31

They need to adhere to these things.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

You have to boil freshly poured water to 100 degrees.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Why? Because that sterilizes the water.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Okay. Has to reach 100.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Then you have to wait for the water to go down to 70 degrees.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Because that is the sweet spot for formula to mix the powder in the water that ensures that the milk is sterilized from any potential bacteria that may be present there while maintaining nutritional integrity. That is the key thing. Right?

SPEAKER_02 36:10

You know what I'm going to start asking you.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

And then you wait, or then you can cool the formula down to a reasonable temperature after that.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

So that's a long time. It is a long time, right? So how far in advance can you prep these bottles?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Okay, we'll talk about that in a minute. Okay. Some people ask me, can I not mix the powder at 100 degrees? The answer is ideally no. You may disrupt the nutritional integrity of the milk.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Right? Can I just heat the water to 70 and mix it then? Why do I have to go to 100? Because it's not sterilized. It doesn't sterilize the water.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

The water, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Okay. So those are the basic principles. After you mix, you cool it down to a reasonable temperature for the baby. Right?

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Can powder be added at less than 70 degrees?

SPEAKER_01 36:57

No, because less than 70 doesn't clean the powder if that may have potential bacteria in it.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Okay, so the water has to go to 100, cool down to 70. The powder is to go in at about 70 degrees. Yes. You mix the bottle and then you let that cool down to a temperature that won't scald your child.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Some people ask, can I not boil the water, wait for it to cool down, and then mix it when it's completely.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

That's what I was about to ask you.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah. That is not the advice.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

So it doesn't because it doesn't sterilize the powder.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah, no. Most powder is clean. So if you do this, you will get away with it most of the time. But the key here, you're dealing with small babies that could get it, you know, unwell very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Now I'm sure we can we did that. Yeah, I'm sure we did that a lot, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:44

So we used to cool. Okay, this is what I did, confession time. And I would say there's a lot of mothers out there that do this. Yes. Right? That you sterilize your bottles, you have your boiling water, you fill the bottles to the amount of ounces of water that you're going to be given the baby, you cover them, you let them cool down. Okay. Right? You don't recheck the temperature to make sure it's 70 degrees.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

And you add the powder and mix it when you're going to be giving it to the baby. And potentially warm up the bottle a little bit to a warm temperature if you have a very fussy child like I had, who would only drink milk at a specific temperature.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah. So that is not adhering to the advice. I think that's what most people do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

And thankfully, because they are such stringent measure like there's such uh stringent um preparation of powder measures like in in the packaging before it reaches your shelf.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yeah, but you have to remember once you open the 800 gram tin, it's exposed.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

This is it. But that's but that's why you need the 70 degrees. That's why you need to do it, got it.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Now, okay, milk prep machines don't adhere to this.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

Yeah, okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Um, you can batch prepare. So you can heat the water, boil the water to 100, wait for it to reach 70, then make several bottles. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Okay, so you can make your four or five bottles for the day.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yes, and then put them in the fridge and you can use them within 24 hours.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Okay, can you warm them?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yes, for the baby to feed, but then they have to feed straight away.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah, so yeah. So you can warm them to the point, whatever degrees that you you know that your baby is happy with, and then they drink that bottle straight away. Okay, so rather than just cooling the water and then adding the milk the milk powder later, you need to add it at 70 degrees and then let it cool and warm it. Okay, grand. So the order is slightly different than when I would zoom when we had, but I'd just like to say both the children are alive.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yes, and you are a bad mother.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Just remember every I say that every week.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

So, guys, we hope you enjoyed this episode. I just want to do a bit of a recap.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Okay, go on, hit me.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Before the recap, though, please subscribe and listen to Baby Tribe Plus or Baby Tribe Shorts.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Baby Tribe Shorts.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Baby Tribe Shorts. We we that's where the real spice lives. And um we're we're gonna we're talking about a lot of papers, we're debunking a lot of issues, and we're gonna be answering your questions. So we're gonna be like agony rants. No, sorry, that's a different podcast. Agony ants, agony ants, sorry, girl, sorry, Neve.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

I love it. Headstuff will be happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

So breast milk has real benefits, that is true, and we don't need to whisper it, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Formula is not harmful, and that is also true. Recosts can be scary, especially when it's baby food, but they're very rare, they're batch specific, and they usually mean that the safety system has worked exactly as it should. So check the batch, follow the official advice, don't let social media turn safety alerts into a horror movie because that is happening, and I really don't like it. Switching formula brands for most healthy babies is usually fine. And also, if you have a prescribed formula, check with your healthcare provider.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

And if you're feeding your baby with formula combination feeding express milk or donor milk or breastfeeding directly, you're not gambling with their future, you're feeding them. Yeah, that's the job. And if this episode helps, please share it with a parent who's currently standing in the supermarket aisle reading tins like they're diffusing a bomb. I know.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Like we're like, this is not a big drama, it's fine. And then he finishes with like they're diffusing a bomb.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

You're doing better than you think. Thank you for listening to The Baby Tribe.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

You're all doing better than you think.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

The Baby Tribe is proudly sponsored by happy tummy.ie, the exclusive distributor of Bayagaya probiotics, providing support for gut and oral health for the whole family.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

This show is part of the Headstuff Podcast Network, a hub for the creative and the curious. Shows are produced in association with Headstuff and the Podcast Studios Dublin. Find out more or become a member at Headstuff Podcasts.com.