Alaska Uncovered Podcast
Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming. Jennie brings you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and Life in Alaska. Guests include Alaska travel experts and Alaska business owners, guides and interesting Alaskans. Jennie is a born and raised Seattleite, a former Alaskan and spends several weeks in Alaska each year. She’s an experienced guide and the Founder of the Alaska and Washington travel website, Top Left Adventures. Jennie is joined by occasional co-host, Jay Flaming, her husband for more than 20 years. Jennie and Jay met working in tourism in Skagway, Alaska and also lived in Juneau and Fairbanks together. Jay lived in Fairbanks for 8 years before meeting Jennie in Skagway and grew up in Yellowstone National Park.
Alaska Uncovered Podcast
How to visit Kantishna in Denali National Park with Jordan Sanford - during and after the road closure
Jordan Sanford from Doyon joins Jennie to talk about how to get to the Kantishna Roadhouse in Denali National Park during and after the road closure and why it's a special place and worth the effort to get there.
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Jennie, welcome to the Alaska uncovered podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co host and full time husband, Jay and I bring you accurate, helpful and entertaining information about Alaska, travel and life in Alaska, before we start the episode, we would like to thank our Patreon members for making this podcast possible. You can join them at the link in the show notes. We are so grateful for your support of independent podcasts. Enjoy the show my guest today is Jordan Sanford, and Jordan is going to share with us all kinds of amazing things about cantit, about Denali and so much more so Jordan, welcome to Alaska, uncovered. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So Jordan to start off, can you just introduce yourself to everyone?
Jordan:Sure. So my name is Jordan Sanford. I am in Upper Tanana Athabascan. I was raised in Tok, Alaska, and I currently reside in Fairbanks with my son river. I have worked for the Doyon family of companies for almost 15 years now in different capacities. I'm currently serving as the General Manager of Northern laundry services, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Doyon, and Kantishna Roadhouse, which is in Denali National Park, which we're here to talk about today.
Jennie Flaming:Woo hoo. Yes, thank you, Jordan, and thanks again so much for being here. So for folks listening, Kantishna is inside Denali National Park, so we are going to be talking about Denali today. Kantishna a little bit about Doyon. So Jordan, let's start with Denali in general. So when people, you know travelers are coming to Denali, they know it's a national park, they know that there's mountains and wildlife there. But one of the things I feel like people don't hear as much about that's so important is the people of Denali, and so I love it. If you could share a little bit about Denali as a place and also about the people who live there.
Jordan:Sure. So Denali has so much history with the indigenous people. The land surrounding Denali has been home to the indigenous people for 1000s of years, primarily the denina and Athabascans, and the name Denali actually means the high one or the tall one, and that name reflects the Athabascan people's deep respect for the mountain and its towering presence. So the mountain plays a role in their stories, their traditions and their identity. It serves as a symbol for strength, endurance and connection to the land. So I have heard so many powerful stories over time powerful spirits and how it's deeply intertwined with the Athabascan people. So there's definitely a lot of history and cultural connection in the Denali area. I think that, you know, the traditional lifestyle of Athabascan people was really shaped by the harsh conditions of Alaska and Denali being so big and, you know, creates its own weather patterns and stuff, there's just a deep respect for the land in that area from the Athabascan people.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, that's really cool. Love it. And maybe along those lines, before we get into more of the details about Kantishna, could you share with everyone a little bit about Doyon and how it fits into native corporations in Alaska, and how it fits into a visitor's experience in Denali.
Jordan:Sure so Doyon is the for profit Alaska Native regional Corporation for interior Alaska that was established under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, or ANCSA, that was passed in 1971 and it was created to settle land claims by Alaska Native groups and provide compensation, basically, for the loss of ancestral lands. So it established these regional and village corporations. Joanne was established then, and it was really to just manage the land and resources promote economic development and provide self governance for Alaska Natives. So in exchange for this, basically there was millions of acreage and they, I think it was like 44 million acres of land and a billion dollars or something around that, in compensation. And the real goal was just to resolve these disputes that were going on and encourage resource development and recognize Alaska Natives legal rights.
Jennie Flaming:And, you know, I really appreciate that explanation Jordan, because I feel like you know that is such an enormous topic that influences so much of the experience of Alaskans and and and visitors, even though visitors aren't always aware of it. So that is actually something that I would love to do a whole episode about in the future, is like ANCSA and and, you know how that came to be and more about that. But that is an awesome explanation, especially for visitors to Denali who are going to be using Doyon services. So that is super cool. Okay, well, in a moment, we are going to dive into Kantisha in particular, but before that, we're going to take a short break. Hi everyone. I hope you're enjoying this episode with Jordan so far, one thing that I wanted to mention is that since Jordan and I recorded this episode, which was a couple months ago, Jordan was promoted to be the president of Doyon tourism. So I wanted to just break in and say, congratulations, Jordan, you're this is just fantastic news. All right, one more thing before we get back to the show, everybody. It is now late March, and I will be wrapping up my 30 minute planning consultations in just about a month, well, beginning of May, so like six weeks from now. So if you want to get in on one of those, this is your last chance before the summer. When I'm traveling in the summer, I just don't have time to do it, and I need to focus on resting between tours and producing podcasts. So go to that link in the show notes if you want to book one of my 30 minute calls, they're $47 and I'd love to meet you. It's one of my favorite parts of my job. So now back to the show. We are back with Jordan Sanford from the cantitioner Roadhouse, and from Doyon and so Jordan, let's talk about Kantishna. So first of all, where is cantitiona? Let's start with that,
Jordan:sure. So we are located at the very end of the Denali Park Road. So the Denali Park Road is about 92 miles from the park entrance, and we are located at about mile 90 so deep in the back country. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:super cool. And can you share a little bit about why, why the Kantishna Roadhouse is where it is in cantina, and what is kind of unique about that part of the park,
Jordan:I would say what's unique about that part of the park is really it offers, especially now with the road closure, which I'm sure I'll talk about. Yes, it really offers an immersive experience, as far as you are out there with not very many other people. And so you're really getting a connection to the land while you're out there. You know, it's possible that you don't see anybody else out there while you're out there. And so being right in the kentishna Valley is unique. We we sit right in between the valley. We're as close as you can get to the base of Mount Denali. So that's really special as well. You know, for seeing Denali is amazing. It's a feeling that I tell people I can't explain I'm a born and raised Alaskan and an indigenous person, but every time I see it, it's just humbling in the most the best way. And I think the closer you get that is such a stronger feeling. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:I totally agree with you about that. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, we're definitely going to talk about the road closure, but maybe before that, let's talk about Kantishna Road House, like the property itself, like, if I am staying there, we'll, we'll come back to how to get there, and the road and all that. But if I am staying there, what kind of is it actually like there?
Jordan:So we have a main lodge. It's a, you know, rustic yet comfortable Lodge. And then we have 33 standalone cabins, or duplex style cabins, and so you have your own private bathroom, sleeping area, but you do share a porch with the other side of the cabin. Yup. Very modern facilities, flushing toilets, hot showers.
Jennie Flaming:Flushing toilets? Yeah, showers in the back country.
Jordan:So we're off the grid. We generate our own power. We are in the process of installing solar. We've got a little halted with the road closure, but we do utilize some solar. We use solar to heat our water, and so generating our own power definitely feels like you're off grid, but with all those modern facilities,
Jennie Flaming:yeah. Oh, that's really cool. And what about what about food? If I'm coming out there, do I need to bring food? Do you serve food? Is it included? Is it not included? How does food work?
Jordan:Yeah, so our rates are all inclusive. So everything is included, your accommodations, your activities, your meals, and the food is delicious. We provide Hearty meals that are served in the main lodge, a roadhouse style, so we all eat together, and they it's fresh local ingredients when possible, of course. And we also have our own greenhouse that we try to source much of our vegetables from
Jennie Flaming:Oh, that is really cool,
Jordan:yeah. And we're able to provide special accommodations for dietary restrictions or allergies as well if we have prior notice. So
Jennie Flaming:love it. I was just going to ask you about that next, cuz I that's something that I tell both my clients that also, you know, guests on tour is, like many, many places can accommodate dietary restrictions, but you have to know that ahead of time, right? Like it's so I assumed that that would be true for the Roadhouse. So that's really good to know, because you can't just run over to Fred Meyer and get something certainly,
Jordan:yeah, and we only, we operate on a set schedule of arrivals and departures. So the plane comes twice a week. So we need to know ahead of, yes,
Jennie Flaming:yes, yes, absolutely. Okay. Can you tell, um, can you tell everybody a little bit about some of those activities? Like you mentioned that the Road House is all inclusive. What are some of the activities that people can take part in while they're staying with you, sure.
Jordan:So we have guided and unguided activities. I would say the most popular activity that people are coming out to the Roadhouse or to Denali to do is hike they want to go out hiking with the guide, feel safe and be able to explore, yep. And so we offer many different hikes, many different levels each day. So we typically have a beginner hike, a moderate hike and a strenuous hike each day. And basically what happens is our guides sit down with our guests and ask you, what do you want to do today? And the group says, you know, we want to do a strenuous hike, and then maybe the other half of the group wants to do a beginner hike. And then we break you up with your guides and send you out. And then, typically, if you're on a strenuous hike, you're usually out for lunch. And so we'll pack you a brown paper bag lunch with a delicious sandwich, maybe some chips and some fruit. And then if you are returning back to the lodge for lunch, we will have lunch in house, Roadhouse style, together, and then we have an afternoon program. The afternoon program usually consists of gold panning, which is a guided activity. So there's lots of history in the Kantishna area in relation to mining. And so we allow you to put on your rubber boots and go down to the creek moose Creek runs right through our property and pan for some gold, and any little speckles of gold or little nuggets that you find are yours to keep. We laminate them on a card as a keepsake
Jennie Flaming:for you. Oh, fun, yeah. And
Jordan:then the other afternoon activity typically is fly fishing, and you can go fly fishing for Arctic Grayling in Moose Creek. So that's basically just steps from your cabin or from the road from the lodge, and that's an unguided activity, though, but if you've never fly fish before, we're happy to show you how to do that on land and then get you all set up to go do that for the afternoon fun. The other activities that we have that are unguided are kayaking and paddle boarding and so kayaking and paddle boarding on wonder Lake, which is an amazing experience. Oh, my favorite activity, yeah, yeah. So we can get you all set up, and if you want to be out there all day, that's totally fine. We can pack you a brown paper bag lunch too. Or we can come back and get you for lunch as well. And then we also offer different presentations in the evening, so cultural presentations, which are really special and also one of my favorite activities to do, yeah, and basically we just provide we allow our staff to present on their own. So our Alaska Native staff are able to share basically whatever they want to share about their life and who they are. And I think that really provides more of an immersive, authentic experience for our guests. You know, we're not putting a presentation in front of our staff saying, This is what we want you to share on our culture. We're saying, Yep, no, you are who you are. You know who you are. Share what you want to share. Do. Want to share about growing up in the village and dogma Shane, do you want to share about going to fish camp in the summer? Yeah, sure. About making birch bark baskets like whatever it is. And that has been such a beautiful thing for me to watch over the years, because I truly see our guests connecting with our staff and learning, but also I see our staff growing from that, and also like having healing moments, like they have the ability to share the accurate representation of them. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:I love that, and I think it's so important for people to realize that individuals have different experiences. And so for each person to be able to share that for their own life is just really cool. That's a really wonderful thing. Love it.
Jordan:the other presentations that we offer, you know is our guides will give presentations on glaciers or bears or whatever it may be that they're passionate about that they want to share in the evenings about and then we do a fanny Quigley cabin tour. Fannie Quigley is a woman that was back in the back country in the early 1900s and her cabin is still there, owned by the Park Service, and it looks like she literally just up and left. And so we have a key to that cabin that we're able to take you to and share some history. So that's a unique part of the mining history that we're able to share with our guests too. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Jordan, can you talk this is a remote, remote property, um, can you talk a little bit about what your season is like, how when people can come there, and how far ahead do people need to book?
Jordan:Sure. So our 2025, season dates are June, 3 through September, 13, and our season typically is June through September. It's about 100 day season. Okay? We open reservations for the following year in October.
Jennie Flaming:Got it so, for example, in October of 2025 is when you could start booking for the summer of 2026 is that right? That's correct. That's cool, okay. And does everything book up, like the very first minute it's available. Or is there a little time there for for people to book?
Jordan:There's definitely a little bit of time. But I do encourage people to book as soon as they're able to, just because we are operating at a reduced occupancy right now due to the road closure, yeah. So we're not able to accept more than 15 people at a time for each stay beginning on Saturday or Tuesday.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, okay, good to know. And then, along with that, when you when you're saying Saturday or Tuesday, does that mean you only arrive on a Saturday or Tuesday and stay for? What is that? Four days?
Jordan:That's right. So we operate on a set schedule of Saturdays and Tuesdays. So three nights stay would begin on Saturday, a four night stay would begin on Tuesday, yep, and then a seven night on either Saturday or Tuesday.
Jennie Flaming:Got it right. That makes sense. Okay, so, um, and is that, are those minimums also in place when the road is open, realizing it's been several years, and you might be doing something different in 2027 or 2028 but in general, is that how the Roadhouse operates? Or is that kind of only because it's flying only right now,
Jordan:before the road closure, we had a two night minimum stay, just because, you know, it's such a journey in and you really need at least two nights to Yeah, immerse yourself. Yeah, okay, okay. Because
Jennie Flaming:one of the things for those of you listening, we are recording this episode in 2025 but you may be listening to it in 2026 or 2027 or you may be planning further ahead. So I want to just encourage you, we'll talk about the road closure here in a moment. But I also want to just encourage you to get on Kantishna roadhouse's website and get in touch with them to get the most accurate info when the road does reopen, because we don't even know for sure when that's going to be right now, at least, I don't think we do, do we
Jordan:may of 2027. Is the plan as of now,
Jennie Flaming:yes, that's what I've heard too. Yeah. Okay, awesome. All right. So let's with all that in mind, I guess. Well, Oh, one other thing is, Jordan, that I don't know the answer to, and I've been wondering about and looking forward to asking you for, for people who are getting who are not staying with you, right? Is there like an option to do? Because this is something that people ask me about quite frequently. Is like, Oh, can I do a day trip here or there? So. Can you do a fly in day trip to cantition, or is that not something that's currently available?
Jordan:I'm so glad you asked, because yes, it is available since last year. Okay, and so we have partnered with Denali air. They're the original flight seeing tour company for the Denali area. Yeah, they're also who provide flight service to our overnight guests, yep, and we allow people to come out. It's about a seven or so hour experience, and we book five days a week for tours. And basically, you check in at 845 in the morning, you depart around 915 and you return back to Denali air at 415 and you come out to the Roadhouse have lunch. You have the opportunity to do a guided activity like panning for gold and moose creek or a quick nature trail hike. Or you can do self guided activities such as kayaking or paddle boarding on wonder Lake. Oh, fun, yeah. And then we always bring folks to wonder Lake to view Denali because, yes, where everyone wants to go to Yes. Oh, that's
Jennie Flaming:so cool. I didn't know that you did that, so I am very happy to know about that. And I will say that Denali air is a great company. I've had a lot of guests on my tour who've gone flight scene with them, and they've been great to work with. So, yeah, cool, okay, and then a kind of along those lines in again, this, I know this doesn't apply right now, but when the road is open and people are going into like camp at Wonder Lake. Can they rent kayaks and paddle boards from from you? Or is that only something that's available to your guests who are staying at the Roadhouse or on one of these day trips
Jordan:Yeah, it's only available to our guests. Yeah, that makes sense.
Jennie Flaming:It's a very remote place to go with this and all of that. Okay, yes, cool. Okay, anything else about like the property, the experience of being in cantitioner and at Wonder lake that you want to share before we dive into the access stuff? Jordan,
Jordan:yeah, I think that what I would share kind of leads into the access stuff, though, I would say that now is such a special time to visit, because there's not very many people out there, and so you really have the opportunity to immerse yourself out there. And once the road is reopened, it's still very special, right? I mean, you're still getting the same experiences. You're still able to see Denali. All of our activities remain the same and available to you, but to be able to get somewhere so remote in Alaska, but still have those modern facilities, I think, is a blessing, like it's such a great opportunity.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, yes. And that is a really nice segue, because I'm sure you are hearing this question frequently as well. I think that one of the most common questions I get after what to pack and about itinerary things is definitely like, should I go to Denali while the road is closed. And I always tell people absolutely, for many reasons. And in fact, in January, we had a whole or not January, December had a whole episode about that. So I will not share my opinion about that now. But Jordan, could you start by just telling everyone why is the road? Road closed? Let's start with that.
Jordan:Yeah. So there's a landslide about halfway on the Denali Park Road at about mile 43 that's been happening for some time now, and it's just progressed very quickly, where it was unsafe to continue allowing traffic through. And so the Park Service closed the road in August of 2021 we actually had to evacuate pretty quickly, and so that was quite a bummer for business operations. We were just coming off of COVID, and so trying to rebound. And then the road closed, and there was lots of unknown. And so we really had to pivot. And, you know, decide, were we going to stay open? And ultimately, we wanted to stay open. We wanted to be able to provide visitors access, still, even with the road closure, yep, and also just provide a different experience that it's not going to last forever. We have. Many of our guests have told me over the past few years with this road closure that they feel like they're the only ones in a national park, yeah. And I think that's incredible, like, that's an incredible experience. That knows if you'll ever be able to get that anywhere, yeah,
Jennie Flaming:right, because you're there with 14 other people plus your guides max, right? Yeah, no, yeah. That's amazing. And do you when the road before. Before this happened, um, were guests able to get out there by plane? I feel like they were, yeah, that that was always an option, even when the road was open. Is that true?
Jordan:Yeah, the option was always there for them. Yep, they could take the bus. They could even go, you know, the bus, in, plane, out plane and gets out, you know, yep, it was always an option. Yep,
Jennie Flaming:cool. Okay, so that's the story. And so right now it's fly in only on Saturdays and Tuesdays. That's
Jordan:right, yeah, yeah. And then one thing that I'd like to touch a little bit on is with the road closure and people thinking, should I go now? And should I visit now? We hear a lot of people with concerns of not seeing wildlife. You know, they're like, Yeah, well, the bus ride shows us so much wildlife, I will tell you, flying in and having it be so quiet in the back country, we're seeing more wildlife. Yes, it's so quiet, right? There's not very good people the animals creep closer to the roads. Yup, so if that's a concern, fair, but I think there's still plenty of opportunity to see wildlife.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, yeah, thank you for adding that. That's really helpful. Okay, so since you know when this episode is going live in 2025 if you're listening in real time, you know this year and next year for sure, it's going to be fly in only. But like Jordan was saying, Park Service is shooting for having the road open for the 2027 season. And actually, I think maybe we should do another episode then. But just in case, for people who are planning ahead, I think it's still really good to talk about the bus option as well. So I also find sometimes people are like, Oh, flying actually sounds kind of nice. That's a lot shorter anyway. So can you talk a little bit about getting out there by bus and what that looks like?
Jordan:Yeah, it's about in a six hour experience. It's a long day to get out there by bus, but we pick up at local hotels in the canyon the morning of and at the rail depot as well. And you come out, we stop several times along the road. We stop for wildlife. It's fully narrated, so you'll learn about the park and the history of the indigenous people on the way in as well. So it's definitely a special experience coming in on the bus as well. And then once you get to the Road House, we do offer those day trips. Cantit wilderness Trails is our day trip portion of our business. Yes, and you can come out, and same thing as flying in and out, basically, you do an activity. However, really the main difference between right now and with the road being open is that we're set to more of a set schedule when the roads open, because we're seeing hundreds of people coming in, versus such a limited amount. Yes, and so when you're coming in on the bus, you know, we we have a pretty set schedule for you to do, versus when you're flying in with us, it's a little more flexible. We're able to personalize and customize it to what he'd like to do.
Jennie Flaming:Yeah, wonderful. Another thing I will just say about the bus is that my when I am in Denali with guests on tour, many of them say I don't want to go on a bus tour. But anyway, you know, I don't want to go on a school bus for that long. I don't want to do it. And what I tell them is, well, of course, you don't have to do it, but I really try to encourage them to go, because I feel like, if you haven't taken that bus into Denali, you just, I just feel like you have to do it. It's so amazing. And I have never had someone come back and be like, That was terrible, you know, I have had people say, Oh, I was, I was ready to get off, you know, the bus at the end of the day, but like, it's so I think people think that it's going to be like riding a city bus somehow, but like, part of what's so cool about it is like, yes, you're on a bus with other people, but when you stop, you know, a lot of times you stop, and sometimes you stop at, like, rest areas, and there's lots of people, but other times you stop and you're Just there with the other people on your bus, and it's pretty awesome. It really is.
Jordan:Yeah, I would agree for sure. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming:cool. All right. Well, Jordan, is there anything else you want to share about Danielle visiting the park cantina before we move into our wrap up questions?
Jordan:I would just say, if you're, you know, looking for adventure or relaxing or cultural immersion, you know, KantishnaRoadhouse is able to provide that experience, and definitely will provide you with an unforgettable Alaskan experience. Yes,
Jennie Flaming:for sure. Love it. Okay, Jordan. I. A couple questions that we ask everybody who comes onto the show. So the first one is food and restaurants. Now I know you're in Fairbanks when you're not in Canta, so and I feel like Fairbanks has some pretty great food. Anyway, what are your what's your favorite place to eat or restaurant, either in Fairbanks or the Denali area, or, you know, if you want to share more than one, that's okay too. Sure.
Jordan:So my favorite restaurant in Fairbanks is the library bar and bites. And it's not a library, it's a little bar.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, I love the library. It's so fun. Yes,
Jordan:it's definitely a fun experience. And sometimes it makes me feel like I'm not in Fairbanks, yeah,
Jennie Flaming:yeah, yeah. It's a
Jordan:little more of a modern experience, I guess. And then my favorite restaurant in Denali in the canyon would be prospectors pizza.
Jennie Flaming:Yes, yeah, get
Jordan:some good pizza. Like beer. Good beer. Great selection.
Jennie Flaming:Yes. One thing, I agree, I totally agree with both of those, one thing I'm gonna say about the library. If, if you like cocktails, you gotta go to the library. Like, should they have so many fun things for sure? Yeah. And like many restaurants in Alaska, it just kind of looks like a gray box from the outside. So ignore that. Don't in Alaska, you don't want to pay any attention to the outside of restaurants. It's the inside that's going to be worth it. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Love it. Okay, so Jordan, to wrap things up, I would love to know what one piece of advice you have for people coming to visit Alaska for the first time,
Jordan:I would say to make sure that they learn a little bit about the history of Alaska before they come this place is, you know, deeply connected to the land and indigenous people. You know, Alaska is home to 11 distinct native cultures, and each of them have their own rich history, language traditions, and that's woven into the very fabric of our state. And so I think while many visitors come to see the beauty of Alaska, stunning landscapes, wildlife, you know, glaciers, there's so much beauty here. There's also so much history and culture that's tied to our indigenous communities. And I think it's important to have the mindset and know that the land is not just beautiful, it's sacred land. So understanding the significance of places like Denali, for example, as well as the people that have lived there for 1000s of years, is really crucial to appreciating Alaska in its entirety. So that would be my suggestion, and I would just encourage visitors to plan their trips carefully, respecting you know, the culture significance of these lands. Ask questions. We love to answer questions. We want to share who we are with you, and we want to share our culture and tradition as well.
Jennie Flaming:Love it. Thank you so much, Jordan, thank you. Thank you for being here and chatting with me today, and for those of you listening, I'll put all the different places and things that we've talked about in the show notes. You.
