Hiking in Denali National Park with Trinidad Collier

Trinidad Collier, owner of Northern Epics and a hiking guide in Denali sits down with Jennie to share his favorite hikes in Denali along with what is different about hiking here, things to know and what to bring.

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Transcript

 Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co-host and full-time husband, Jay, and I bring you accurate, helpful, and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and life in Alaska.

Before we get into this episode about hiking in Denali with Trinidad, who knows so much about this topic, I wanted to mention that this episode, like all of our episodes. Is brought to you by our Patreon members, the members of the Alaska Planning Club. And now we are into the Alaska season and I am out and about, I am still answering everyone's questions every Thursday over there.

So if you wanna get in on that or you just wanna support the pod. Please join us over there. It's patreon.com/alaska uncovered. It's also in the show notes. And the other thing I wanted to mention is since Trinidad and I recorded this interview this spring, he created this wonderful guide to hiking in Denali.

It's a fantastic resource. It's on their website, which is northern epic.com. And I will also put that in the show notes, and Trinidad will talk about this later in the episode. But if you want to book a tour with them, you can also save 10% with the code top left.

All right, enjoy the show.

My guest today, is Trinidad, Collier, and Trinidad is a hiking guide in Denali, and that's what we're gonna be talking about today, is hiking in Denali.

So Trinidad, welcome to Alaska Uncovered. Thanks for being here. 

Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to, uh, chat about everything. Ali. 

Yes, I know you are a wealth of knowledge and fun to talk to, so it's a, it's a double win. , So Trinidad, can we start with you telling everybody how you got to Alaska?

Absolutely. Um, the, actually the first time I came to Alaska was, uh, as a commercial fisherman over the winter of 20 19, 20 20, uh, which was its own, story. And getting back, um, to COVID starting was wild because yeah, I didn't have any like, communication with the outside world at all. And then I landed and my buddy picked me up.

He was like, yeah. So I have uh, two things to tell you. One, Kobe died and two, there's a worldwide plague. And I was like, oh, ha ha ha. That's a lot. Everything shut down. 

That's a lot to absorb in one moment. 

Yeah, it was, it was wild. That was a, a wild time, but that's not how I got up to Denali. Um, I got up to Denali in, , 2022.

I actually, same guy that picked me up, , back in 2020. He had gone up there, um, and was working as a raft guide, and uh, he called me up and he was like, dude, . You gotta come up to Denali. Like, you're gonna love it. I got a job for you, a place to stay. It's all lined up.

I was like, all right, sounds like a plan. And so, yeah, a 

place to stay, I mean. I 

know, right? 

That's huge. 

Pretty, yeah. Pretty big score. So, uh, I convinced another one of my friends, to head up there with me and, uh, we flew up, we landed in Fairbanks, and, uh, Ian came and picked us up.

He picked us up and he was like, well, you know, I don't really have a job or a place to stay for you, so. Fairbank thing 

I've ever heard. 

Yeah. Amazing. 

Oh, cool. 

So, uh, we, you know, drove back down to Denali and,, he had a, a little room at the Denali Raft Adventures Camp, , that I could stay in with, uh, my buddy Zeke for one night.

And then the next day we were gonna need to, you know. Figure it out. 

Something out. 

Between the two of us, Zeke and I, I think we had like, like 30 bucks, um, to our name. Um, yes. So, so we just, so that's not even 

enough gas to get back to fair. 

You could 

buy one hot dog, 

let alone if we had a car.

Yeah. You could buy like one and a half hot dogs in Dali with that. You could. So that's almost two meals figured out. 

We could almost feed ourselves 

almost for one meal. 

For a, for a meal. Yeah. Um. But no, we, uh, we ended up, um, just hitchhiking up and down the road until,, and just, you know, trying to find any kind of a job.

We got a couple of offers, but one of the cars that picked us up knew somebody who knew somebody who ran a hiking company. And they were like, oh yeah, I heard he is looking for, for new guides.



Ended up just getting us out on a a on a training trip, it was all quite a whirlwind. And that night we ended up, uh, in a tent in his backyard. Um, and that was basically how we lived for that season., And so that was, that was how I got into hiking in Denali,



I just love like the, the, uh, focus on education and really teaching people about the area, and expertise there. . There was that aspect and the aspect of like, how much I loved it, how much I loved the place and all that stuff.

But then there were also some things that like, you know, I didn't see eye to eye on with kind of management and like yeah. How things were done. Zeke and I basically just felt like we could do it better. 

Yeah. 

That was kind of the, the start of Northern Epic. 

That's amazing. And by the way, listeners, we'll come back to Northern Epics in a little bit.

But I'm gonna just say that I met Trinidad because, , the guests on my tours for the tour company that I work for,, Northern Epics is one of our vendors that we can book tours through. And not only are you guys amazing to work with, but the guests. Really love your two words. Like it's really awesome.

They're like, oh my God's so amazing and this is the best hike ever. And I'm like, Aw, that's awesome. Well, thank you. Yeah. So,, glad to hear it. Yeah, you really have done an amazing job with it. So let's talk a little bit about hiking and Denali in general Trinidad, and then we can come back to talking more about Northern Epics.

So. 

Yeah, 

let's start with like when you think about hiking in Denali versus. Let's say you're, you are someone who hikes, right? Like you're not arriving and then like this is gonna be the first hike you do ever. Totally. What are some things for travelers that you think they should know that are different about Denali versus maybe a typical hike in the Pacific Northwest or California or the Rocky Mountains?

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much to this question. . Because there, there are so many different aspects and I think, you know, part of it, like, we wanna talk about what's different about Denali, but I almost want to focus more on what's the same about Denali. We get so many people who are avid hikers, who, you know, contact us and they're like, Hey, do we need a guide to hike in Denali?

Like, it's gotta be this crazy different thing that like, you know, is. Is totally different from what we're used to. And the reality is, in a lot of ways, it's really not. Um, like you absolutely don't need a guide to hike in Denali. Uh, you can totally do it yourself. I'm a huge proponent of that. Um, yeah, especially like, you know, there are great things that a guide can provide, but if you're just trying to go on a hike, like.

Go do that. You know, you, you can absolutely do that. 

Yeah. 

Um, there are a number of trails, uh, in the park front country in the first 15 miles. Um, and some of them are absolutely fantastic. 

Yeah. 

Uh, and a lot of them you got like, if you got a guide, they wouldn't even be able to take you on those. So, you know, I think hiking on your own is a fantastic idea.

Even if you're gonna hike with a guide, you should also hike on your own. 

Yeah. 

Um. Things that are different to keep in mind because there definitely are those, there are bears, you know, they do exist. Uh, the state's kind what famous for them. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. 

Yeah. 

But there's not as many as you might think, in Denali there's only around 500 bears.

Um, yeah. And you know, 

just 500. No big deal. It, 

yeah, it does sound like 

a lot, 

we 

should mention that denali is like bigger than many states, so 

Yeah, exactly. It's a huge park, 6 million acres. Um, and so, you know, like it's something to keep in mind, uh, but it's not something that, you know, I'm terrified of on a daily basis, uh, especially when you're hiking, well frequented trails that generally aren't gonna be around those areas as much.

Yeah. Yep. With that said. Do be very aware, do know what to do if you do encounter one. There's info on the Park Service website about that. You can also bring bear spray. I highly, highly, highly recommend that anyone who's hiking in Denali always have bear spray with them. 

Yeah. 

You can't fly with it.

It's a little bit expensive and so it's kind of a pain, but it's so worth it. It is like, you know, if you do run into a bear, that's what you wanna have. , Believe me, if you run into a bear without it, you feel very naked.

Yeah. 

So, yeah, highly, highly recommend bringing bear spray, knowing how to use it.

You know, don't point it at yourself. Right. It's not like bug spray.

Oh boy. I feel like we could do a whole episode about bear spray incidents. Yeah. 

Totally. But 

that would be a different topic. 

Yeah, it, it definitely would. Yeah. 

Yeah. 



Know what you're getting into, be moose aware. That's even the more important one, you know? Yeah. Uh, most Alaskans are more scared of moose than they are of bears. Yeah. I know. I am, I know. I've had more scary run-ins with moose than bears by a long shot. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

And so, know what to do with both animals.

Spoiler alert, it's not the same. Um, and, you know, just enjoy the hikes., One other thing to note about hiking in finale that's very different, um, is there aren't a lot of trails. Yeah. And I know I just mentioned there are, you know, a lot of trails in the front country there.

And there are several, but for a park that's 6 million acres. It only has a dozen or so trails. 

Yeah. 

It's not very many miles of trail system at all. Uh, most of the hiking in Denali is off trail. Um, and so, and I, I think that's one of the things that really makes Alaska special, you know, is, is the remoteness.

It is the, you know, the fact that only 20% of the. State can be accessed by the road system. Yeah. Um, and so like getting off trail I think is such an amazing thing that you can do and such an amazing opportunity. But it's also one that, you know, does require a much higher, level of expertise, whether that's natural navigation, , or whether that's, you know, using sophisticated GPS.

Devices to, you know, know where you are at all times, even when you don't have cell service, which you won't most of the time. Yeah. So I think it's a really cool thing to do, but do make sure that you do have the skills for that. And if you don't, you can get a guide, uh, and they can help you with that.

Yeah, yeah. You know, one other thing I'll mention about like off trail hiking, so listeners to your. No, three years ago, um, Jay and I did an episode about Denali with, um, a couple friends of ours who lived there. He was a ranger there for many years. He's retired now. And we talked quite a bit about off trail hiking in that episode too.

So go, that was in May of 2023. Go back and listen to that when it was a really fun episode about life in Denali also. And then one other thing I would just mention about that is that. You need to be on the transit bus, not the tour bus. If you wanna get off and hike. Yes. Because Trinidad and I both being guides will tell you that disappearing on your guide is a Don't do that.

Yeah. Please 

don't do it ever. So if you wanna get off and walk around, no. Tour bus, transit bus instead. Okay. 

Yes. Cool. It's gonna be way cheaper too. 

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And you will not ruin someone's day by them spending like two hours for looking for you at the atika rest stop or wherever. Oh, boy. Okay. So Trinidad, can you, can you tell everybody what some of your favorite hikes are?

Let's start with absolutely in the park for right now, and then we'll get past that. 

Yeah, absolutely. I would say, and I'm, I'm gonna go with primarily on trail hikes. I'll do a couple of honorable mentions for, you know, yeah. Off trail hikes that I like, but that sounds good. Um, but for on trail hikes, my easy number one pick,, in Denali National Park is, the Savage Alpine Trail.

Oh my God, that one is absolutely phenomenal. It's, it's a brilliant trail and that's one of the ones that if you get a guide, they're not gonna be able to take you on that, that is not included in the front country. Commercial use authorization for like, hiking, guiding companies in Denali. , So that is one that you'll like, need to do yourself, and it's.

So worth it. Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. On a good day, you have a beautiful view of Denali, um, the like rock outcroppings. There's this, this, all this schist, , that's there, which is a really neat rock, um, that's got all these layers. It's on its way to becoming nice. Um, but as of now, it's still shift.

, Geology pun. Um, yeah. But, but it's a really, really nice trail. 

Those are required, required, uh, hiking. 

Yeah, 

hiking guide, uh, cannon right there. 

Exactly. I I could get away from it. 

Yeah. 

Good 

job. 

It's a brilliant trail. Um, it's absolutely fantastic. The Savage River Trail. If you, you know, maybe a little bit less fit, that one is an excellent choice as well.

The Savage LP pen trail is pretty steep. It's something to keep in mind. Um. But the Savage River Trail really has hardly any, uh, elevation gain at all. And it's goes along the, the beautiful Savage River all the way. You still have these beautiful sh outcroppings. You don't get the, like, really wide sweeping tundra views that you do on the, Savage Alpine Trail, just because you're getting up higher on that one.

But it's still an absolutely beautiful trail. And those would be like anyone that I, you know, recommend hiking in Denali to. Those are the first two that I'm gonna say, um, every time. And those are at the mile 15 marker. So you will either need to take a transit bus in there or take your own vehicle, which you can do out to that spot.

Um, but you can't do it further than there. 

Yeah. 

Those are definitely my pick for my favorite trails in the park. Yeah. Some other ones that I really like, the, the Rock Creek Trail is great. There's some great viewpoints on that. We do guide people a lot on that one. 

Nice. 

, The Healy Overlook Trail is also a nice one.

It's, similar vibe to the Savage Alpine Trail. I just think the Savage Alpine Trail is better. So. You know, it's, 

yeah. You 

doing that, it's 

remote. I mean, it's furthering 

apart. Yeah, exactly. 

Yeah, 

exactly. Exactly. Um, but yeah. And then off trail, my favorite,, like easily accessible hike in Denali, that's off trail is, uh, probably out to the glacial erratics.

Mm. 

Um, which are these huge boulders left behind by the glaciers. As they, you know, grind down through the landscape, uh, coming all the way from, you know, the central Alaska range, uh, where Denali is and all those other really tall mountains.. They would break apart those that rock, you know, which was in that area, that's granite.

And it's gonna drag those rocks as the glacier flows, which glaciers, they really flow more than, uh, you know, anything else. It's, it's good to think of them more as a river. Than as anything else. As they flow, they, you know, grind down the landscape. They bring those rocks. Most glacial lo attics are not that big.

You know,, they're still shockingly large, you know, maybe 20 feet across. But there's these two in particular that were deposited up on this hill when the glacier melted away. And they are, my goodness, 50 feet tall. Wow. They're absolutely enormous. That's cool. It's so cool. And they're just in the middle of this like tundra field.

It's gorgeous up there. , But it is entirely off trail to get there and, uh, they're definitely for recruiters that are really large on that area.

, The fastest, easiest way to get there, uh, is from like the Denali sled dog kennels.

Oh, 

okay, cool. 

Yeah. Yeah. Um, the way that I got there, uh, when I did it was not that way. 

You 

had to 

do it the hard way. We do any research into, how people usually do it. We just like looked at a map and, you know, planned out our route. Uh, so yeah, we did do it the hard way for sure. It was fun.

Oh, that's awesome. Oh, that's cool. Um, okay, so yeah, I agree. Those are some pretty cool hikes. I haven't done the glacial erratic one. That sounds really cool. Yeah, that's 

sweet. 

Let's talk a little bit about what to bring and so listeners I have a whole other podcast that's about hiking in Washington and we have many episodes about like what to wear and what to bring.

So I'm gonna just say there's things that you always need to bring on a hike, like food and water, a rain jacket, shoes. Wear shoes when you're like, that's 

a good idea. 

So without going into every single thing, maybe, maybe a better way to ask it just so we have more time to talk about other stuff, Trinidad, is what are some things that people that are like super important and or that people don't think about?

When, um, going for a hike in Denali? 

Absolutely. I think number one is just considering what time of year you're there and what you're gonna be battling in that time of year. 

Yeah. 

Um, because it's gonna be something because you're gonna be battling something. Yeah, exactly. So in like. Early, uh, season, you know, we're talking May, you're gonna be primarily battling cold, right?

It's not super wet in May. The mosquitoes aren't out yet. Uh, but it will be a little bit chilly and there will likely be still some snow on the ground. , Be ready for that. Have good boots with good traction. Have, you know, layers that you can take on and off, uh, with layers. Make sure that you're not sweating.

That's a big one, you know? Mm-hmm. If you dress too warm, you're gonna get cold.

So when you're in cold environments, it's really important that you keep from sweating. 

Yeah. 

So that's a, a big one.

And for June, June, July, the main thing you're battling is going to be mosquitoes. , They, there are lots of them, uh, depending on the year, you know, some years more than others, but expect.

Lots of mosquitoes and, you know, know how to fight them. And that's, uh, something that I could talk for ages about. Um, yeah, but 

same. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's one, like, it's one of the primary, you know, difficulties for people hiking in Denali. And so it's something that we spend a lot of time on with. With Northern Epics is, you know, like testing out new ideas for dealing with mosquitoes because we want our clients to, have to worry about mosquitoes as little as possible.

Yeah. 

So we're constantly testing new things and, the number one thing that you know works unequivocally is, is deep., And the higher percentage the better. If you just want nothing to do with mosquitoes, throw on some det. You know, you're good to go. A hundred percent deep if you have it.

Yeah. That, with 

that said, that's a 

super important point. You need very harsh chemicals if you're gonna go the blood spray route. Yeah. 

Yeah, absolutely. Um, the natural stuff, it does not work. We, it 

doesn't, 

like we love to show our, our clients all the time., 'Cause all of our guides have three types of bug spray with them.

When they go out on a tour, they have the a hundred percent de the 40% de, and. An all natural, uh, repellent. Yeah. And, they'll like put the all natural repellent on one arm and the de on the other arm and just like show the difference in the mosquitoes that are landing on each arm. 

That that is real dedication.

Yeah, 

I've been a hiking guide and I probably wouldn't do that, so you probably wouldn't hire me. Oh my, 

oh no. You know only the guides that like to do it. 

Yes. 

That's 

awesome. 

, The DEET is a good one. Uh, permethrin also works pretty well. Um, that's one that you treat your clothing with as opposed to your skin.

One more note about deet. It's, there's a lot of people that don't like it, and I think that's totally fair. Um, yeah, for one thing, it melts plastic, it's really harsh, right? Yeah. It's, that's a nasty chemical. 

Yeah. 

If you put it on anywhere near your rain gear, uh, it's gonna melt your rain gear. It's gonna make it not waterproof anymore.

And it smells horrible, like all of, and it feels bad on your skin. Like all these things are super true. With that said, like there have been a lot of studies and there's really very little to back up any like, negative effects to the skin or to your body, um, from it. But I also, you know, completely understand people not wanting to use it because it's nasty.

Yeah, 

yeah, yeah. Me too. Yeah. And I think, can you talk a little bit about clothing and stuff, because 

Oh, absolutely. 

Like, I feel like people really obsess over like, what brand of bug spray should I have? But like, what you're wearing is. In my opinion, a way bigger deal than any bug spray. So would you mind talking about that a little bit too?

Totally. That's, that's really the number one thing that you can do to avoid and battle mosquitoes is layer incorrectly and using the correct clothing, uh, things with a really tight weave like rain jackets, , are gonna keep out the mosquitoes much better. Especially if it's a hot day. That's an unfortunate thing, right?

Mosquitoes, they're usually out when it's hot in Denali. 

Yeah. 

And so, you know, a lot of times I'll just be in a t-shirt with a rain jacket over it. Yeah. And that rain jacket is just for mosquito protection. 

Yeah, 

That's just kind of my daily attire, um, around Denali 

and it, it's kind of clammy and a bummer, but it's not as big of a bummer as getting eaten alive.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, wearing rain gear is a great, great repellent. Um, again, be careful about det. If you're doing that, uh, do not put it on that rain gear. Try to keep it away from it., If you care about your rain gear, 

yeah. Um. 

Or else it will not be waterproof anymore.

Yeah. Uh, it might still help with mosquitoes, but it won't be waterproof. , Loose fitting clothing also works pretty well if it's moving a lot on your skin. Yeah. Uh, that's helpful. The mosquito can't, you know, get through there and bite you as easily. If it's tight fitting, they're not gonna have much problem getting through most 

Yeah.

Fabrics 

like leggings., You might as well be wearing shorts. 

Yeah, absolutely. There's, you got, you got no, no protection at all with those. 

I, I wear leggings to hike all the time in the winter, but in the summer, never for that reason. 

Yeah, no, absolutely. And even, you know, even rain jackets, they can make it through a little bit.

Uh, if, if they're bad, you'll get a few bites on your shoulders, um, where that fabric is touching your skin. 

Yeah. 

Again, it is something that, you know, keeps away. Most of them, it doesn't, you know, have a, a nasty smell or anything like the DEET does. Um, and it's, it's really the easiest, most reliable, most consistent thing you can do to, you know, keep most of the mosquitoes away.

Yeah, totally. Cool. And I'm glad you talked about rain jackets too, 'cause like that's something you should always have hiking. And then in Denali it can also save your butt from bugs, not just sudden random rain storm that came from nowhere. 

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Rain gear is absolutely key. , I always recommend having it.

We have extra rain jackets for all of the guests on our tours. 

Mm-hmm. 

But I'm always psyched when people show up with their, with their own as well. Yay. 

And really, you, I, I feel like you really only need four things to visit Alaska and you can win a wing, everything else. And one of them is a rain jacket.

Big time. Abso, I mean time because 

it can, its can do so much for you, you time beside, I mean, first of all, it is gonna rain, so don't have any of this like, well I'm going on this day when I heard it won't rain. No, it's just get over that. And then yeah, backup phone battery is another one. 

That's a, that's a, a good idea as well.

Definitely. 

Yeah. Cool. 

But yeah, rain jacket's key for sure. 

Okay, so Trinidad, can we talk a little bit about trails that are within and not within the park? Boundary because listeners, course, you've, you've probably heard me talk about this in other podcasts, just the, the very tight limitations on tour operators within the park.

And there are a few including you, , but there's a lot of limitations about where even those who are authorized to do that, where they can go.

Can you just talk a little bit about, um. Kind of the difference between those and what your opinion is as a hiker about how to decide where to go and how do you decide where to go? Yeah. With tours. 

Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a, a phenomenal question and it's, it's so tricky. I, I think it's really cool in a lot of ways, um, that the park does have so many limitations on where people can go, where guides can go.

Uh, I, I generally I like to, you know, appreciate the outdoors with the true adventure of it, ? Uh, and that's just. My own personal, you know, how I like to, to experience the outdoors. And so I, I think there's something really cool in the way that most of the park is kept for adventure.

You know, you can't have a guide for a lot of it. And I think that's, that's super cool. It's also kind of unfortunate, uh, in a lot of ways, especially for, companies like ours and for the people who wanna go and experience,, the park. But the good news is that there. Are a lot of options, uh, both inside and outside the park.

Like I said, there aren't very many trails in the park that you can, you know, even hike on without a guide. There's just not very many trails in general. And most of those trails are in the front country. They're in the first 15 miles of the national park entrance. That area is very similar actually to the areas outside the National park.

It's, made up by the boundary of the Nana River. Uh, but you're gonna be hiking in essentially the same, you know, mountain range area, all the geology ecology is. Pretty much the same, whether you're, you know, within the park boundaries or just outside of the park boundaries. And so there is a lot more freedom for guiding companies like ours to do more of the hikes that like we really wanna do, we really wanna, you know, help guests experience, by just doing those just outside of the park boundaries.

I know for. Some people, a lot of people like they really care about being inside the park boundaries. Right? That's why they're coming there is to experience the national park. Uh, and that makes perfect sense. That's why we do operate some tours inside the National Park boundaries. 

Yeah.

So that's something that you really care about. That's totally an option. But like, just keep in mind that most of the guiding companies that are operating inside the park, if they're also operating things outside the park, those are the things that they're really excited about because those are the things that the park won't let them do.

Um, 

yeah, there's great options. It's it'ss like so many things. It, there's, there's like kind of this. Paradox or conflict between wanting to be in the park, but also wanting to have this experience, like having an amazing view of the mountain that those entrance area trails don't have. Totally. You know, things like that is, um, yeah.

There's trade-offs for sure. I'm thinking too about like the bus system system and mm-hmm. You know, people will very often say to me, I don't wanna do a bus tour. Um, and usually what I say is nobody does. Yeah. Honestly, nobody does. Everyone wants to drive their own car, even if they don't even have a car there.

If you ask them. Yeah. They're like, oh no, I wanna see it all on my own. Well, you can't do that, right? I mean, this is how everybody sees it. But so many people, including like my guests on tour when I'm in Denali are like, wow, that was amazing. And you know that the, the wilderness there is really. Different without the presence of traffic jams and cars.

Yeah, and it's like, I feel like it's another thing like what you were saying about the trails.

Totally, 

there's an upside and a downside and, but it is for sure a very unique place. 

Yeah, absolutely. I, I do love it. And you know, I, I've said it many times and I'll, I'll say it again.

The fact that Denali only has one road that goes through it is something that's so amazing, even if you're just going down that road, even if you wish that, you know, you could get closer to the mountain, like these are totally, you know, valid hopes and dreams, but the fact that you can't is kind of a cool thing.

There's all of this wilderness around you when you're miles and miles into the park on that one road, everything to every direction, except for back down the road is. Wilderness for miles and miles and miles. You're not gonna get that anywhere in the lower 48. 

Yeah, 

nowhere.

Even in. Remote states, there's always a road that's, you know, within a few dozen miles for the most part. Yeah. And that's just not something that's, that's the case in Denali and it's, it's really special. And if you do take the time to really get out there, it's. It's like nothing else. Um, yeah, but it's, I I think it's absolutely fantastic in a lot of ways and yeah, you know, you do have so many other options as well outside of the park, and that's what I would just, you know, keep coming back to, is like, don't let the limitations of the park limit you.

Yeah. 

Appreciate it for what it is. And then go out and do really cool things outside of the park. Like, I'm gonna be honest, I do most of my adventuring outside of Denali National Park. Yeah. I love the Eastern Alaska range. 

Yeah. 

Oh, amazing. Is phenomenal. Out in the old Denali Highway, which you can drive your own vehicle out.

It's absolutely gorgeous. There's so many options out there. Uh, taking a, a, a, a fan boat up up to the, the McLaren Glacier from the McLaren River Lodge. Very little known, uh, thing to do. Super worth it. 

That sounds really cool. I've 

never 

done that. It sounds awesome. 

Yeah. Oh my God. It's, it's phenomenal.

But there are so many options for things that you can do. You know, flying out to the Y glacier with Tesco, for instance mm-hmm. Is really cool. 

Mm-hmm.

There's so many options for adventure just outside of the park and in areas there. Just as beautiful as anywhere that's in the park. Yeah. Um, and more beautiful than a lot of areas that are in the park. 

Yeah. 

Uh, so yeah, don't let the limitations of the park limit you go do what you wanna do, get the adventure you came here for, like 

Yeah.

It's, 

yeah. You got options. 

I love that. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay, so you are a hiking guide. I have been a hiking guide in the past, but not in Alaska. In Washington. And as you said, this is not, you know, if you want to land on a glacier in a helicopter, you are gonna need to be on a helicopter tour for that, unless you have a helicopter and you are a pilot.

Helicopter pilot. Okay. Yeah. So that's the truth. That is a no-brainer. That's a tour. Um, however, if you're gonna go hiking, of course you can just go hiking and you don't have to be on a tour for that. So, in your opinion, what are the, maybe what are the benefits of being on a tour and how yeah, should someone decide if that is the way for them to experience hiking in Denali or not?

Absolutely. Um, well first off, I wanna say that obviously I'm a a hiking tour operator myself, so I'm a little bit biased here of 

course. 

But I'm gonna be as, objective as possible with it. Um, and start out by saying, you know, not everyone should go on a hiking tour. Right? Yeah. It's, it's not something that's for everyone.

Yeah. 

Obviously you can go hiking on your own. I think it's a fantastic thing to go hiking on your own. There are a lot of reasons not to get a tour. Right. For one thing that one of the greatest things about hiking is that it's free. Right? Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah. And on a tour, it's not free. In fact, it it's pretty expensive.

Not, 

although for tours, hiking tours are pretty affordable compared to other tours because there's not Yes. Complicated transportation. There's not boats and planes and all this stuff. You are, you are providing the movement. So yes, you're right. It, it's not. You know, 

that 

is, it's not free. That is, that 

is true.

It's, it's, it's like a quarter of what a flight scene tour is. 

Absolutely. It is. It's not free and hiking is usually free. So if that's, you know, a big deal to you, then like, maybe it's not the best thing for you. Or, you know, if you really wanna control your own pace, you wanna, you know, hike fast and,, not stop for things and not have other people who are,, controlling your pace.

Then Yeah. Don't get a hiking tour, you know? Yeah. Go hike a mountain. You're gonna have a blast. Yeah. Some reasons to get a hiking tour, because I think there are fantastic reasons. For one thing, the, what I see is the real value of a hiking tour is you're gonna get a different perspective of the place that you come to visit.

You're gonna learn so much more about it. I love to, you know, kind of contrast it with the Tundra Wilderness Tour, right? On the Tundra Wilderness Tour, you're going deep into the park. That's one of the bus tours by the way. You're going deep into the park and you have someone who's. Teaching you all about like the, the macro, right?

They're showing you all the, the large scale. This is how this area forms, this is what lives here. Teaching you about the animal behaviors and the geology and how the park came to be and the history, and that's all super cool. Going on a hiking tour, you get the micro, so you get the other side of that coin, right?

You really get to delve into, these are the actual plants that live here. You can pick them up, you can hold them, a lot of them, you can eat them. , You learn about, , the specifics of how the ecosystems interact, how the, the fungi interact with the trees, how the trees interact together, and all this stuff and really.

Teaches you how to see the land in a different way. There are some really, really fascinating things about Denali that you're not gonna find anywhere else. I mean, it's, I like to say it's, it's like a little slice of the Arctic with better restaurants, um, because it's, since it's at a little higher elevation, uh, not super high elevation, but around 2000 feet, which.

Makes the climate very different. Since it's at that little bit of a higher elevation, uh, you get much more of that arctic climate. And if you even go further north up to like Fairbanks, it's much less like that. The permafrost in Denali is actually very consistent. Um, whereas even up in Fairbanks, it's classified as inconsistent or patchy.

Uh, and so you get a really different landscape. You get different trees. The trees grow differently. And one of the things that's really cool is learning how to read that landscape and being able to see that throughout the rest of your time. In Alaska it's like, it's like learning a new, if you ever, you know, learned a new skill and then, you start seeing the world in a different way because of that, right?

You start seeing everything differently. The same thing kind of happens when you take a, a hiking tour and you really learn deeply about the land and you know, like, oh, there's, the trees are much shorter in this spot. That means the permafrost is closer to the surface. That means that I'm gonna have this really deep, squishy peat moss there that's really fun to bounce on.

That means that I'm gonna have cranberries probably and cloud berries. And, you know, you start learning all of these different things and it helps you just appreciate the whole. Time that you're in Alaska better. Yeah. Right. So it's the way that we think about it at Northern Epics, we don't think about it as like, we're just taking you on a tour and entertaining you for a few hours.

We think about it as like, we're trying to make your entire vacation better. We're trying to elevate your entire vacation. And that's why we do what we do in a lot of ways and, and, uh, why we do things a little bit differently than some other hiking companies as well. And if you, end up booking a tour with us, you might notice that.

Our prices are a little bit higher than a lot of other hiking companies., And part of the reason for that is that we , we see the value of that tour primarily in the knowledge that you're getting. And so the training for our guides is really intense., It's, it starts well before the season even, you know, begins., And then. Once we are actually able to get people in person in Denali, it's weeks of intensive training and then, uh, you know, lots of shadowing, different tours to, you know, really get it down and we wanna be both really entertaining and give you information in a way that you are going to remember it and have it benefit you for the rest of the trip.

Then there's, you know, also the benefits of like, oh, added safety, right? Your guide, they definitely know how to deal with bears and moose. Yes. All of our guides anyway are wilderness first responders, right? They have 80 hours of first aid training. . There are all of these, you know, aspects as well, we can guide you off trail, right?

We have guides who are experts at natural navigation. Yeah. They really know how to read the land, how to get you from point A to point B, or just to wander and then get you back, which is an important thing. 

Yes. Rule, rule number one of being a tour guide is that you always return with the same number of people and ideally the same ones.

Yes. So 

in a dream world, 

yeah. 

Oh, that's awesome. 

So yeah, there are, you know, lots of good reasons to take a tour. Um, and lots of good reasons not to take a tour. And I think the important thing is just, 

yeah. 

You know, knowing where you fit into that. If that sounds like something that you're really into, and you should absolutely take one, I do fully believe that it will make just about anyone's trip.



Yeah. You know, I totally agree with everything you said, Trinidad, and I'm just thinking about like, when I am, you know, booking tours like yours with my guests and they're like, should I do this hiking tour or not?

And, and I, these are exactly the things that I ask them. Like if there's somebody who's asked me every single day where they can hike and then they come back and tell me that they did this nine mile hike in two hours. I tell them, A tour is not gonna be right for you. 

No, don't take a 

tour. But if they're like, I wanna do a hike, but I'm not sure,

then I'm like, or, or like, I really, you know, I really wanna learn more about, 

yeah. 

Kind of that naturalist stuff that you were talking about, or someone who's always totally asking those questions. 

Yes. 

Then I'm like, okay, this is totally for you. 

Yes. If you're the type of person who goes out on the trail and you see a plant and you're like, oh, I wonder what that is.

Yeah. Like you're the type of person who's going to absolutely love a hiking tour. 

Yeah. 

And there's so much That's so cool. And it's just gonna expand your whole knowledge base and your horizons and give you these amazing light bulb moments for the rest of your time, um, there. And so, you know, if you're that type of person, absolutely.

Take a hiking tour. It's so worth it. If you're the type of person who just wants to go on a hike. Just go on a hike. 

Yeah. Oh, awesome. Okay. So listeners, if you wanna book one of these awesome tours in Denali, um, I'll put the website in the show notes. That's northern epics.com. , And you all can save 10%. So Trinidad is awesome and provided a discount code for you all, and the code is top left. So you put that in there when you book and you save 10%. Thanks for that Trinidad. That's awesome. 

Absolutely. 

There's lots of options. You know, as you've probably gathered from our conversation, they have quite a few different tours that they do. So you can go to the website and check those out. And like many companies in Alaska, if you're like, I'm not really sure which one of these is right for me.

You can ask a human yes and get an answer. 

Yes. Yes. Okay. Absolutely. 

Yes. 

Huge. 

Yeah, it's huge, right? I feel like that's such a big deal. Yeah. Okay. No. So before I let you go, Trinidad, a couple wrap up questions that I ask everybody. I'm gonna, I'm gonna alter them a little bit for you because we're talking about Denali here.

So eating. 

Yes, 

in Denali listeners, it's a challenge. It is like food in Denali is real expensive and there's no Uber or Lyft, so you're gonna be going to whatever you can walk to from where you're staying. I mean, you know, unless you have a rental car, if you're there with a rental car, then you can want Yeah.

Which I 

do recommend. Yeah. 

So I'm curious, Trinidad, what's your favorite, let's say post hike, eat in Denali? Ooh, 

man. I mean, really it depends on where the hike is. 'cause uh, I want my post hike eat to be close to where I get back because usually I'm hungry. Um, good 

point. Yes. No extra driving for 

Yes, exactly.

A post 

hype meal. 

Yes. 

Okay. 

Oh man, there's, there's so many good restaurants in Denali, in fact. , One thing that I'll, I'll say real quick on our website as well, um, you can find our epic guide to Denali, and that has a full rundown of all of the restaurants in Denali, , where they are, what they serve, what their ratings are and everything.

So if you, that's great. You wanna know more about restaurants 

resource? Yeah. 

Go check it out. Mm-hmm. It's free. You can download it. No problem. Um, and we hope it helps, uh. But as far as my choices, if I'm ending in Healy, I'm going to, uh, j Boyd's Kitchen, I believe is what it's called. Mm-hmm. It's a new food truck.

Ooh. 

New as of last year. Uh, they had really limited hours last year. I think they're gonna be opening more full-time this next year. Cool. Which is super exciting. As with most things, Denali, it's fairly expensive. But you get a lot of food for it. They make fantastic chicken sandwiches.

My goodness. Nice. The, the seasonings that they have, oh, it's, it's glorious. It's absolutely glorious. I highly, highly recommend it. Um, go check them out. Eat there. Enjoy it. And 

where, where is the truck? I haven't been to that one. 

Oh yeah. Its in Heal. This is an important part, isn't it? It's in Healy. Um, 

this is the other thing, listeners is like, you can't necessarily find places like this on Google Maps.

Yeah. You know, and they don't have like phone numbers and websites. Exactly. It's funny because I am listeners probably know, and I know you know, to Trinidad that I'm writing a book right now that's about Alaska cruise ports. And one of the things, it's for a company that has a particular structure, which makes sense, right?

But sometimes I'm like, how do I say? This is a food truck at the end of Foc. You know, this is a orange food truck at the Grizzly Bear. You know, it's kind of hard to like, traditionally explain anyway, but give it a shot. 

Absolutely. 

So where is it? 

Um, yeah, so 

And what's the name of it 

again? Again?

Unfortunately it is, I believe Jay Boyd's kitchen. 

Jay Boyd's Kitchen. 

Okay. Um, yeah, and hopefully I'm getting that right. Uh, I'm just doing 

that 

memory. 

What color is it? The food, the truck itself. 

It's multicolored, I believe. 

Ooh, 

okay. But it's, it's located, uh, the intersection in Healy. Um, the intersection. 

The intersection, 

Yeah. 

Yes, 

I know exactly where you mean. Down the Healy Spur Road. If you go down there, down that road towards.

The Nanana River and the Yu Valley, um, power plant. 

Okay. 

Um, just a a hundred yards or so on the left, in that big gravel parking lot. Okay. Um, that is where, , that food truck is. Yeah.

Sweet. 

Yeah, that's. That's my choice for Healy. For Kentwell. Okay. It's gotta be jam jams. Um, he is absolutely fantastic.

Delicious food. Uh, we also live right next door and so Nice. 

It's 

a big, you know, problem and solution at the same time. Yes. It's glorious. 

Have you made any money with this business or has it all gone into the food truck? 

Primarily? It's gone to Jam. Jam. 

Oh gosh. Okay. So can 

you 

talk about where Jam Jams is?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know you said 



Yeah, yeah. South to Cantwell., And like south towards Anchorage from Denali National Park. Uh, it's gonna be just past the, , old Denali Highway on the left hand side. , It's gonna be a black building and, it's very Jamaican theme,

big white building right next to it. That's, where we live, but it's very recognizable. So if you see that big white building, you're there. Sweet. Go ahead and turn into the parking lot, um, and, you know, get you some delicious Jen Jam scrub.

The food cart at Sled Dog, which is the, it's a red food truck, um, that's probably your best bang for your buck. Um, it's surprisingly like decent food.

I'd probably have to go next up is the Denali Dog house. Um, yeah. 

Which 

is absolutely delicious. Fantastic food. I do go there every year. I will also say it is the most you'll ever spend for a hot dog. 

Yeah. 

And it is over, over price. 

It'll also be the most affordable meal in Denali at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, it's absolutely delicious. The 

hot dogs are like $18. 20, something like that. 

Yeah. It, it's, it's around there. And when it's enough, enough to make you be like, oh, man, for a hot dog. However, 

when 

you were looking, it's really hot. That's hot dog. I've had for sure. 

For a meal in Denali, you'll suddenly find that feeling like a bargain.

Yeah, yeah. Which 

it is, but not ly. And they're amazing hot dogs. 

They are really, really good, you know? Um, but every time you go finish eating it, you're like, man, I'm like. 60% full for 20 bucks. That's probably, I know, I know. But I, uh, it still has to be my, my next pick for, uh, for food in the Canyon. Yeah.

Because it's absolutely fantastic and I do find myself going back over and over. 

Yes, same. Okay, so before I let you go, Trinidad. I always ask people what their top tip is for first time visitors to Alaska, and I thought for you, I would like dial that in a little more to Denali specifically.

So what's your biggest piece of advice for people who are coming to Denali for the first time? 

, It's hard to narrow it down to one. Yeah. I'll say since we already like brushed over, we already covered this a little bit, but, um, layering. Layer. Well, yeah. For what time you're getting there. Uh, and, you know, bring the right layers for it.

, If it's in September, it is gonna be cold and rainy, so prepare for that. 

Yeah. 

But my number one top tip, which you mentioned a couple times, that transit bus. That is fantastic. The East Fork Transit bus is awesome. Um, so many people don't know about it. 

Yeah. 

Uh, it's not marketed like the Tundra Wilderness Tour, like the Natural History Tour are.

Yeah., But it's taking exactly the same route most of the time. The drivers on that are also gonna be telling you about the area. , And it's a fraction of the price you can get on and get off wherever you want. It's a really cool experience. Yeah. And it's what I recommend to most people.

Yeah. There's a lot of people that, you know, do prefer to just be on the bus the whole time. Have the, you know, zoom cameras and everything that are really cool that they have for the Touch Wilderness Tour. They are 

cool. Yeah. 

Other bus tours, but. You know, it's, it's, uh, it gives you a lot more freedom.

The Yeah. The transit bus does. 

Yeah. 

And you're getting a, a similar experience in a lot of ways for a fraction of the price. Yeah. So I do highly recommend that, and I especially recommend it. I swear I'm not, I'm not just saying this to say it. I genuinely do believe this, that taking a hiking tour, , first.

And it doesn't even have to be with us. Yeah. There are other great hiking tour companies in the area that are gonna give you fantastic knowledge. 

Yeah. 

Um, but taking one of those and then taking that transit bus is such a good combo's because Yeah, it's, you get so much of that knowledge of the area and you know how everything works and how it looks.

And then you get to go on that bus and see it on a larger scale and put these things together for yourself, and get off and experience it. Yeah. It's a, that's a phenomenal combo and that's one that I really recommend for. 

Yeah. Absolutely. 

So many people. 

Yeah, I agree with that. Well, Trinidad, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all your love for and wisdom about Denali with us today.

It was wonderful having you. 

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. One last thing. I know I, I mentioned the uh, epic Guide to Denali. That's a fantastic resource. But also, and you mentioned this too, if you call us, you get a human. , And we're super call a super stoked.

Yeah. Call a human 

if you're feeling lonely. 

We're super 

Call it. 

Yeah, exactly. We're here to hang out with you. Have a good time. Seriously, we, we, we really, really wanna help people have an awesome time to know. Yeah. That's what we care about the most. Yeah. So if you're like, oh man, I, I don't wanna book a hiking tour, but like, I want info.

Don't be afraid to call. Like even if you're not booking a tour with us, even if you're not booked on a tour with us, our number one goal is to help everyone have an awesome time in Denali. So we are happy. To help you out in any way that we can give you advice. And we're not gonna give you advice just to sell our tours.

Right. We're gonna give you advice to help you have an awesome time and 

Yeah. 

We know that not everyone wants a hiking tour. Yeah. And not, not everyone is right for a hiking tour. So, yeah. 

Um, 

yeah, give us a call if you have questions. We'll be happy to help you out with  📍 your, with your, 

fabulous. Thanks so much, Trinidad.

Of course. Thank you so much.  . 

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