Scientology’s New Play For Kids - Secrets of Scientology #18

Scientology isn’t just trying to recruit adults. They’re now marketing a “full library” for kids aged seven and up, and we’re not guessing about what it means because we can read exactly what they’re putting in front of children. I’m joined by Anne Gollert, who brings both lived experience and a background in linguistics to explain why seven is such a vulnerable age for ideological conditioning, loaded language, and social control.

We walk through what’s inside these glossy, kid-targeted books: the ARC triangle, the emotional tone scale, “body mind thetan,” “how the mind works,” assists, “honesty,” and even communication drills like TR0 and TR0 bullbait. We talk plainly about what that training does to a child’s boundaries, how it teaches compliance as survival, and why redefining “reality” as agreement can quietly lay the groundwork for disconnection from family. We also dig into the tone scale’s “covert hostility” framing, how it plants mistrust, and why Scientology’s long-standing labeling of LGBTQ people matters when these ideas are taught as basic truth.

From there, we zoom out to the real-world consequences Scientology tries to hide: internal attitudes toward children, the way OSA writes about families, and why Suri Cruise choosing “Suri Noel” hits so hard for anyone who understands Scientology’s family pressure. We also honor the heartbreaking story of Jack Denine and the wider pattern of loss tied to isolation, disconnection, and the shame around seeking real mental health support.

If you ever see these materials in schools, libraries, or youth programs, please reach out and let us know. Subscribe, share the episode, and leave a review so more people understand what Scientology is doing to children before it’s too late.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Hello, and welcome back to the channel. This is Blown for Good, Scientology Exposed. I'm your host for today, Claire Headley. And this is a conversation I've been talking about having for quite a while now. But without further ado, I will bring on my guest, the amazing Anne Collar. We're back together. Yes, we are. So for anyone listening who hasn't met Ann yet, I will include in the video description links to part one and part two of the interview we did a little bit ago, as well as links to Anne's social media. Definitely get on over to TikTok and follow her there. All kinds of amazing content you've been putting out. Congratulations. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

I have quite I'm building quite a little community over there. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

I love it. I love it. All right. So to set the

Scientology Targets Kids Seven And Up

SPEAKER_03 1:20

stage for our conversation today, in March of this year, Scientology launched a brand new campaign in an attempt to recruit children ages seven and up. And I figured uh I'll let you explain why you're the perfect person to have this conversation with.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

I mean, when I heard this, Claire, oh the amount of anger I had, because I have a degree in linguistics, okay? I understand how children learn language. And what seven years old, like, okay, up to 14 is the prime time in a person's life where they could easily learn languages. That's why you see kids able to speak multiple languages because their brain is set up for that.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

And it starts to shut down about 14. But seven, that is the prime age where whatever you tell a child or whatever they read or whatever they learn, that becomes theirs. Right. You know, and and this scares the crap out of me that they're doing this. Well, it makes me more angry than frightened, right? Because you're gonna have kids, all they will learn is this. They will have no way to compare or contrast to other things that they're learning because they're not learning anything else.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

That's right, exactly. And and this is very personal to me because the things we're gonna be talking about are things that I started learning at the age of four, five. Um, and I've often said and made the comparison, it's important to understand that for a child, uh one is learning these concepts, this language, this terminology, the semantics before you even have a grasp on the English language. Correct. Truly. Um so anyway, we'll we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

But it's like it's like you're learning, it's like the sky is blue, man. This is this is that real to you.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

At that age.

The Book Set And Hidden Branding

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Oh, yes. So let me pull up some slides. We'll have some have some uh things for us to all look at. Ah okay. So here, hold on, let me change something here. Here we go. All right, full library seven and up. Oh I know it's unbelievable. Scientology books for the new generation, full library, seven and up. So this is the box that they come in. Uh interestingly, it took quite some logistics to get my hands on these. I had volunteers placing orders for them at least 10 times, uh, and they were canceled every time, even though, like, you know, no names associated anyway. Wow. Yeah, interesting. But yes, that this is the box that they come in. Okay, so this is the first five. And I have I, you know, obviously, I mean, we we could spend hours pouring through these, but I figured from an from the point of view of an overview conversation and discussing each of our perspectives of why this is so dangerous, this would be a good start. So the first five books are ARC, which of course is in reference to the ARC triangle, uh, affinity, reality, communication, which equates to understanding, um, the tone levels, body, mind, thetan, the the eight parts of life, which is a rename for the eight dynamics, right? How the mind works. Okay. How the mind works. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

No, I know. Just no. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, I just can't. I just cannot with this.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

I know. I saw a comment somewhere, I can't even remember where, and somebody was like, ARC on a kid's book? Like, aren't they gonna be super confused and be like, I thought it was A B C? Right? No, but they're not going to real schools anyway, so yeah, I know. And this is anyway, getting into the nitty-gritty of this is just is going to delve deep into how dangerous Scientology is when it comes to children. Um, and of course, you know, anyway. Um, oh, so the other the other thing I wanted to get your thoughts on, Anne. It was a it occurred to me when I was going through the ARC book, and again, this is now from a very different perspective. As uh I'm a mom of three boys, and um and I was looking at this, and uh as I mentioned to you in our earlier conversation, there is one place in this book that references the word love, uh, which is unusual because it works, it was not in most of the materials when we were there. No, however, the uh you know, affinity, reality, communication. It's basically affinity, is they define as a feeling of love or liking for someone. Reality is your ability, your agreement and your you know, ability to agree on different things with a person, and obviously communication and self-explanatory. Those it the belief represented or the doctrine represented is that those three things make a triangle, and when you have all of those, it equals understanding. And it hit me that so let's just take reality. Let's say you and I don't agree, does that mean we can't understand each other? Apparently. Right. So, oh, I get it. So we're teaching kids that if the parent that signed them up for this course decides that they don't like Scientology anymore, and it's not a good idea for said child to continue, now we cannot understand each other, and there will be uh that's it, end of conversation, and next thing you know, uh there's disconnection involved.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Right. And that's the thing, right? And the other thing I was thinking when you were talking is the language that is so loaded that you use for this stuff, so like you're gonna be telling a little kid that, you know, this isn't my reality, just you know, we have a reality break here, and this little kid is gonna go out into the world and see other people, and they're gonna have no idea what they're talking about. It's gonna be like they're a complete foreigner. They're gonna be speaking a totally different language, and they're just gonna, you know, they're not gonna have any way to be able to actually truly understand other people.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

Completely. I mean, I I remember being seven or eight in public school and saying to my friend, don't cut my calm, and she looked at me like I was an alien. Right. Like, what? What is it? And of course, in Scientology, that's when you interrupt somebody uh who's having a conversation, which is considered not cool. Right. And which by the way, kids do on a regular basis because they're learning to communicate.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Right. I mean they're kids. Exactly. But not in Scientology, they aren't.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

But we'll get into that, I'm sure, a bit.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

We will. Okay. All right. The next one is the tone levels. I've taken some pictures of that. Um, and because it it covers the emotional tone scale. It's very um, it doesn't cover the complete tone scale, but it it covers um starting at apathy up to exhilaration.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Um, with images. But I I've got some of these um, which by the way, before I forget, I wanted to mention um I saw your TikTok video talking about the emotional tone scale and and you gave me a flashback of Oh no. No, no, no, a good one actually, or a funny one, I should say, or a unique one. Um, from when I testified as an expert witness in the Danny Masterson trial. One of the things that I had to explain on the stand was the emotional tone scale.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

And so I I explained, you know, it's a scale that runs from very similar to what you were saying, you know, obviously paraphrased, our our notes match up exactly. Um, but that's what reminded me of it because I said it's an emotional tone scale at the bottom, it's minus 40.0. Then there's zero, zero point zero body death. And the court reporter did a double take and she was like, wait, could you repeat that please? I'm like, zero point zero is body death, and then up to 40.0 serenity of beingness.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Oh my goodness, the look I can imagine, I can imagine. Well, what what's interesting to me about this is if like it's so disingenuous to me, and I'll tell you why. If they consider children just to be little fatents, you know, adults in small bodies, adults in small bodies, then why can't they just post publish all of it? You know, like 40 to minus 40. Why can't you? So what's going on here? Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Yeah, I know I was thinking about that, and I think the their strategy actually, I there's two things that struck me. Number one, um, and I've mentioned this before, but they have a lot now, like a good portion of the current active Scientology members are ex-Corg members who now have children. Right. And they are trying to force the issue to get those children acclimated to Scientology now, before you know, they can before they're even old enough to Google and find out for themselves. Right. Number two, it did occur to me that perhaps they are intending or hoping to get these books into schools, as you and I have seen. Probably. Um yeah, because other than the fact that it says L. Ron Hubbard on the front, nowhere does it say that this is Scientology.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Of course not.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Right. And interestingly, you know how at the at the front of every Scientology book, there's uh at least as I remember, there's always this like one page, like, um, you know, what's true for you is what's true. There's none of that in here, none of that in here.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Okay. So just starts off with this is just what's true.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yep. It's not like uh take what you like and da-da-da. They've just abolished all that. And I'm pretty sure that there is a Hubbard policy that mandates that that be in the front of every book. So I found that interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

That is interesting.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Yeah.

unknown 12:51

Huh.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Okay. And then body mind thetaan is uh of course, and again, I have slides that we'll talk about because I have some. I'm gonna be interested to hear your thoughts, but oh goody. That's defining that the basically the concept of you have a body, you have a mind, and you the thetan is the um real world that's Scientology's equivalent, real uh of real world concept of soul or spiritual being. Right. Yeah, yeah, okay, and then the eight parts of life is a dynamics, um, and how the mind works. Okay,

Communication Drills And Boundary Erosion

SPEAKER_03 13:30

and then let's get on to the next slide here. Okay, this is the No! Yes, no, Claire, no. What are you what are you reacting to? Confront thrills. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Let's hypnotize them at seven.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Yep, let's get them bull baited and oh yeah, and uh and let's have them, I mean, talk about anyway. Again, we'll get into that too. But yes, those I I went through that book and that covers having them do OTTR zero, which is where you have two people sitting with their eyes closed facing each other until they can do so without reacting. TR0, eyes open, and TR0 bull bait. I I mean TR0 bullbait on a seven-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

It's abuse. A hundred thousand percent. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

I've I've experienced it. You've experienced it as a kid, right? Yep. I did notice that they said do not leave the chair. Um, somehow when I did TR0 bullbait, it didn't stop the 40-year-old man that I was doing TR0 bull bait with from starting to unbutton my shirt to make it flustered.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Yeah, I was told anyway, I mean that's horrifying, Claire. Yeah.

unknown 14:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

What did you I mean, how do you deal with that? You don't. You just shut down.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Yeah. That's the whole point. Uh how I dealt with this, I just started crying. Um, and he said, Are you crying? I said, No. Um, because what else am I gonna say? Um, and he said, Oh, well, then you're just having a reaction, so we need to keep going. So we need to keep doing more of that. And oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

And so he kept flunking you every time he tried to unbutton your shirt and you reacted.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Yep, yep. And and also, and also, this is one of the biggest things in Scientology. I'd love your thoughts on this, I think, that programs you to have no boundaries. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah, so I wrote about this in my book that's again with the editor, but anyway, you know how that goes. I do. Yay! But I wrote about this, like this is what it did to me. It programmed me that no matter what anybody said or did to me, I wouldn't react. I would just accept it and just move on. Yep. And that I mean, doing that to a seven-year-old, well, that's what you had to deal with. It's so abusive. It was abusive at 29. I can't 27. I can't imagine how how it feels as a little kid.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Yep. Horrible.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Yes, I know. Um, okay, then start, change, stop is of course the cycle of action, which also too um removes boundaries and is premised on the concept that you get somebody to get something done, whether like uh execute a command, whether they want to or not, has nothing to do with it. Uh yay. Uh honesty is obviously where they indoctrinate children that they have to confess their deepest, most private thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Everything.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Yep. Um, and how to be happy is essentially a rewritten version of the way to happiness. The way to happiness. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, okay. Any any other thoughts you want to add before we dive in?

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Oh no, I can't wait to see what else you got.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Yeah. Yeah. Let's dive. I have some. And and obviously for anyone listening, if you have specific questions that we don't cover in this conversation, drop it in the comments and we can we can do a follow-up conversation. Of course, we could spend 10 hours going through all these books in great, great detail. So I tried to just get a fair snapshot for the sake of this conversation. Perfect. Just uh yeah, and and again, to demonstrate how dangerous this is for children and how insidious Scientology is in trying to do this. Um okay, so separate to the pictures that we showed of the book set that I have, there's a second set. And these are for ages 10 to 100. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

10 and up. No, no, it must be 10 to 100.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

10 to 100. Best for skilled. If you're still 101, if you're 101, I hate to break it to you. You are not the audience here.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

I mean, look at this. Best for skilled readers. Really? But who's teaching them to read?

unknown 18:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

That's what I want to know. That doesn't matter. Yeah, so again, and this is all the same topics, but now different. And and I don't have a set of these books, but we have ARC Triangle, Tone Scale, Parts of Man. Now it's called the Eight Dynamics, not the eight, the Eight Parts of Life, Understanding the Mind, Assists, Communication Drills, Control, Honesty, and Survival.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

So interesting.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

So basically, what they did is the the little kid books, they made it a little bit simpler. And now they're getting into the real Scientology terminology more.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Little tentacles going out.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Yeah. They're saying, oh, we're going to increase the gradient. We're saying, no, you're increasing the indoctrination.

Tone Scale And Training Distrust

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

I know that.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

So frustrating. Okay. So I'd love to get your thoughts on this one, Anne. This is this. So this is a snapshot a picture, and this one came from the book. Hold on, let me go back here. Um, so this is from this book here at the tone levels.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Yeah. So as we've talked about. So here it says a person in covert hostility, which is 1.1 on the emotional tone scale.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

You mean the ones that need to be taken and put on an island somewhere?

SPEAKER_03 20:00

The leopards. Melon Hubbard compares them to lepers that should be put on an island to die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

And what else is it about? Um, hold on, let me fix one thing here. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

The point, uh, yeah, I'm looking at this and thinking, and we're focusing on this. Why?

SPEAKER_03 20:19

So a person in covert hostility feels dislike or hate for people, but they hide these feelings. They smile and act friendly. You may believe they are a friend, but they are just pretending. This is the tone level for anyone listening that L. Ron Hubbard assigns to anyone in the LGBTQ community. I did a whole video on this the other day.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I was so mad about this. Because I'm seeing all these people on you know social media, all these Scientologists going, I'm gay and I'm a Scientologist. No, you're not. Not really.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Wait till you the only reason they're able to get away with that now is because of the article in The New Yorker that featured Paul Haggis.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Paul Haggis, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

And you know, Scientology lies. This is a perfect example. Uh, you know, you don't believe us, go go read the words and read the words covered.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

That have never been changed. Exactly. You can't change them. Yes, exactly. This is very interesting that they are doing this.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah. Exactly. Next one. Secretly. So again, this is about covert hostility. Secretly, this person wants to harm others or their things. A person in covert hostility makes up stories to get other people to think bad things about someone.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Oh boy, oh boy. For you, as somebody who grew up with this, imagine yourself reading this. What would you, I mean, how would you even be able to know if a person was gently. Genuinely just being your trying to be your friend as a little kid.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Yeah, I know. I it you it's a good solid question, and I do remember being confused about that because the version that I studied, um, the you know, obviously this is uh the graphics that went with what I studied was the person smiling with the dagger behind their back. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, uh, I don't think my friends are like that.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

And uh and it it's interesting how it j just kind of plants a seed of general d mistrust. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah, which is exactly what they want.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Right. Anyone want to isolate you, not trust anybody. They want you, uh, you know, the snitch culture, they want you to write up anything that you don't think is right. And again, all of this is super, super dangerous to involve children in.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Uh because it's like it's I mean, Lord of the Flies, man, it's gonna turn into that when they get older.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Right. Exactly. Oh, it's horrible. Oh my god. Okay. Uh this one is just a picture from the um here. Let me go back and get the title again. Sorry. Oh, fine. So how to be happy. How to be happy. So this is a picture from the inside of how to be happy. Wow. Um so yeah, so I have, so I just wanted to show this one, number two, in the actual way to happiness is be temperate.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Okay. So this is be careful what you put in your body. Um, and again, this is where I thought, hmm, they're likely trying to uh infiltrate schools and other um children service industries with these materials.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yep, yep, for sure. That's exactly what that looks like.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Um drugs are things some people put in their body that change how they feel and think, really?

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Uh do not murder. We're teaching this to a seven-year-old in this way. Killing and murder are not the same.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

I mean, if you have to kill an animal go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

If a person has to kill a dangerous animal, I know I'm like, are we serious here? To your seven-year-olds. Where's what's this kid going? With these people, I just kidnapped.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Is this kid on the Serengeti? I mean, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

He's out in Alaska, you know. If there's a bear trying to kill you, you can do something about it. But anything else, I mean, oh my gosh, it's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

That's if somebody's hurting you, you know, you can't do anything about

“How To Be Happy” And Confession Culture

SPEAKER_02 25:00

that because it's a person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Oh, but but you can sign up to be a member of a dangerous cult. We're totally fine with that.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah, just totally good. Yeah. And you know, you can be abused and it's not a problem.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Because you pulled it in, I mean.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yep. And we'll teach you about that too. How everything's your fault and being a victim is something you'll be shamed for for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

So true.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Yep. Um, but hey, this is how to be happy. Yay, cheerful. Wow. Oh my god. Okay. Okay, I got Anne. Tell me your thoughts on this definition of Satan.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

You are life. You are a thatan. What the hell does that mean? Right. That is the definition. That's it. Hey Claire, you are you are a Satan, Claire. So now when you think of yourself, you're gonna think Satan. I am a Satan.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Are you and so the graphics take take them through the whole drill that is done on any beginning Scientologist where it goes, you you I'm oh yeah, think of a cat.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

I've done it to so many. Yeah, close your eyes and look at a cat. Yeah, who's looking at the cat? Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Oh my god. So I remember it well. How is it that we never forget these things? Well, because indoctrination.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Because it's indoctrination. Yeah, I know. I wish it's in indelibly baked in. Tattooed. Yeah. I I've said so many times, I wish I could not remember the 10 points of keeping Scientology working. Oh, girl, or the the manifestations of the three barriers to study or the affluence formula or the or the danger formula.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

I did a whole thing about Chinese school in my book because it's just so insane.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Yes, I have that in there too. And that gives the definition of incorporate one with another to push forward a common purpose. And then they really got a leader. Oh God. So cringy. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

And you're all standing in line, yeah. Yelling it. Yes. Ah, so fun.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Yeah. Um, okay, and then communication. I was just showing this as an example. This is the this picture is from the uh the book titled ARC. Communication. Communication is two people giving and receiving ideas between each other. I mean, okay. Okay. Um, all right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Oh no, I knew it. I knew it. I knew this was coming.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

These are not really in order, by the way. I apologize. No, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

The reactive mind is where nightmares come from. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Yeah. That's no, actually, I revised that. Scientology is where a nightmares come from. That's right.

unknown 28:00

You're right.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

In my case, you're that's the case.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

That's where all my nightmares came from.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Trauma. Yeah, exactly. I know. Anyway, it's and again, we're talking about seven years old. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Um, it's horrifying because first of all, there's this, and then you go, well, yeah, but when you get to clear, you remember you realize that this is all bullshit anyway.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yep. Which is you've gotten rid of your reactive mind at the state of clear. So now what? Uh and again, this is this is a more subtle danger of Scientology and and actually for that matter, any cult. Because then what happens when you have your next nightmare?

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Now exactly. Now what? What is where where did that come from?

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yeah, and and in Scientology, you're now already stuck in the spider's web. So if you think to yourself, well, wait a minute, I've I got rid of my reactive mind. So why am I having nightmares? Well then, and instantly the smoke and mirrors kick in that turn in on yourself, right? To where you're going, well, I can't tell anybody because if that means the tech's not working on me, which means that I'm a bad person, or I've done something wrong, or I'm a potential trouble source. Sure. And and this is the danger to me uh that's more subtle and not so necessarily obvious.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I think a lot of it is subtle, especially when you're dealing with someone who's so tiny and small, and they're making it look so banal, so innocuous, so lovely and fun, and just like you know, your ABC books, but it's not.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

No.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

This is this is instilling some really dangerous, dangerous thoughts. Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

And it's normalizing something that should never be normalized for a child. Right. Ever. Ever. Under any circumstances. Uh I know.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

I remember when you know my grandchildren came to live with us, and I'd never had kids' kids, because you know, Sea Orc. And at first I was treating them like I was taught to treat them, right? Like little adults. And my husband would look at me and go, What are you doing? Thank God I had him. He's like, honey, you know she's eight, right? Yeah. And I I I actually got better at it, but oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And this is the concern.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

You know, exactly. Yep. Um, okay, and this is the the next page is is also from the ARC book, Affinity is Love. I mentioned love appeared one time. Amazing is where it appeared. It is caring about someone, but again, it's conditional the way it's being taught. Affinity is conditional on reality agreement, which is conditional on communication. Right. So, where does unconditional love? I was just gonna ask you that question to Scientology. Yeah, unconditional love, anyone? Nope, there's no such thing, doesn't exist. Nope. If if you don't agree, if my mother doesn't agree with me and can't communicate with me because of Scientology, which she can't, uh there is no no caring about someone. It's just not a thing. And you know, when you compare that to real world and the importance of family as a foundational building block and a uh such a huge important piece of the person that a child becomes, you see how evil this is.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

It really is, it really is. Unconditional love is the most important thing for especially for a kid, yeah, to know that his parent, well, in Scientology, I mean, the parents aren't always very much, especially in the CR, you don't see your parents, but yeah, I mean, you know that. But um, you know, the the thought that your parent wouldn't provide unconditional love to you. Yep, just it's horrifying.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Or that or that as a child, knowing that your parent will disconnect from you right if you do not obey the rules.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Right. If you don't agree, yep, you're out.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Exactly. Horrible. Oh, okay, moving on here. Headache. I'm sorry. It's okay. I still love you. I love you too. Okay, this

Thetan And Reactive Mind Messaging

SPEAKER_03 32:40

one I uh again, so this is from the eight parts of life, which is the eight dynamics. The reason I chose this p picture is because the eighth dynamic is uh the closest Scientology gets to any kind of belief in God. And this definition here, and and I'll let you talk when I'm done with this rant, um, is uh if you ask a Scientologist if you if they believe in God, this right here is why they will every single person you ask will give you a different answer.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yep, that is a hundred percent true because this could be so many different things.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

It could be, well, I am a god myself, or I am at one with all others, or isn't isn't the first one you said the close to the end phenomena of the highest OT. Well, yes, OTA. You're a god. I am God.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

But no, when when Scientologists say that you can be this religion or that religion and this religion and be a Scientologist, that's not true. Nope.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

No, that's that's only true so that you walk in the front door. Exactly. The minute you're in the front door, you can believe in God, everything changes.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Yeah, church services. Do you though? I know what those church services are.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

You're not allowed to pray. That's called another practice, like yoga.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Yes, people don't believe me when I tell them you can't do yoga in Scientology. At the same time, they're like, You can't? Why? Like, well, absolutely true.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

Meditation, you can't meditate. Yeah, no, you can't pray. No, you can't, uh, I mean, whatever. There's a whole long list of you can clap to El Ron Hubbard.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

That's what you can do. Hip hip for I can't even finish it.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

It's pretty cringe. Okay, so yeah, on your eighth dynamic, you survive with infinity itself. Infinity exists and goes on forever. What is a little kid gonna do with this, Claire? Exactly, my what will they do with this? I know. Oh my god. Uh you should like a ranch fest, isn't it? Yeah, you should have seen the look on my 18-year-old's face when I was taking these pictures. He's like, What are you doing, mom? Like, oh, I'm just trying gonna talk about these crazy Scientology books. He was like, Oh god. I'm like, I showed him this and he was like, What does that even mean? Right, right. What does it even mean? Uh who knows? Yeah, exactly. Unbelievable. Okay, and this this one again. Um, this is from the assist book. And assist always helps. So what if it doesn't?

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Exactly. Which they often don't, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

They often don't. But again, this is indoctrin this is beginning the indoctrination.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Right of if it doesn't help, you did something wrong. Yes. You little little Claire, little Ann, if you didn't touch assist on somebody and they didn't get better, you screwed up.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Right. And of course, don't ever dare say, I it didn't work. Oh, you can't say that. No.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Uh no. Oh no, you did it wrong if it didn't work.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Right. Exactly. Okay. And then this this is just something I included. Um, these are the actual 21 precepts of the way to happiness that they're now teaching to seven-year-old children. Um, and I included this because um my stepfather tried to make me uh teach my, let's see, she was three. Oh no. Three year three-year-old sister, these verbatim. And he said he would give me 20 dollars. No, verbatim? Yeah. Yeah. Um, he said he would give me $20 if I could get her to memorize all these when she was three years old. And I got as far as number three, and I was like, I'm out. I'm not, because like I'm supposed to explain what don't be promiscuous means to my three-year-old little sister. No, not doing it. Wow. Yeah. Wow, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

But yeah, you think about this, right? Like plus, I love number 18, as if they do that.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Oh, yeah, exactly. Come on. No, I know. This is ridiculous. Uh uh, and what else is there here? Fulfill your obligations, be industrious, do not murder, seek to live with the truth. Uh really? I helped you. What truth? Whose truth? Yeah, exactly. This is one of these do as I say, not as I do. Right. Elmer Hubbard, who said he never had a second wife.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Oh, yeah, there's that. Love it. I remember that we had to we had to get her all take airbrush her out of all the photos. Right. Back in the day when you didn't have digitizing. We had to like shh.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

Well, Mary Hubbard's yeah, exactly. Anyway, yeah, that's a whole other conversation. Yeah. But yes. Um, anyway, so this is the actual 21 precepts that they've just um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

I mean, I'm seven, and I really don't care about supporting a government designed and run for all the people. What do I care? I'm seven years old.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Yeah. Exactly. And and again, what's more important? Learning precepts or unconditional love and a really good education and learning to read and write, and you know, learning that it's okay to process emotion. It's okay to be angry, because guess what? If you're, you know, maybe you're having a bad day or you're upset about something, and whatever the reason is, you can get through that and come out the other side. And that is possible and actually healthy and normal to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Not per the tone scale. It's not nope, it's not. Well, unless you're older and in the C organ, then everything you're angry about. You have to be angry and you have to be mean. So there's that.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

And the angrier and meaner you are, the faster you get promoted.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Um, which sadly I found that out when I was already in RTC.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Oh, yeah. Uh because you were never a mean person, and neither was I, but I got really mean. I got really mean.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yeah. Well, I think I I would revise that to say that we became people who we are not. Right. Um, and just to survive. Just to exactly, just to survive, and like in some cases, with the threat of the rehabilitation project force hanging over our heads of like you do this or else.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Um, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Anyway, yeah, crazy, crazy. Um, oh. Yeah. So here now,

Hubbard Quote About A Seven-Year-Old

SPEAKER_03 39:50

and again, this is in the context of Scientology and children. I thought we would include some a few things that show what they actually think about children. Um, so this is a quote from Elrond Hubbard from Dianetics, the modern science of mental health, which Scientology refers to as its book one. And this is his words. It's in the current edition. The seven-year-old girl who shudders because a man kisses her is not computing. She is reacting to an engram. Since at seven, she should see nothing wrong in a kiss, not even a passionate one. There must have been an earlier experience, possibly prenatal, which made men or kissing very bad. This is literally about a seven-year-old, which is who they're currently targeting, and this is what Scientology thinks. A seven-year-old should see nothing wrong with a passionate kiss from a man. Really? What the actual heck?

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Uh, I I I e uh like this is what you read. I think the people who are promoting how great Dianetics is, you know, all the things they learned in Dianetics. Did they skip this part? Did they skip the part where they talk about where he talks about how homosexuality is like the greatest sin in the universe? Or you know, what am what are they skipping in Dianetics that it's helping them so much? How does this help the person?

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Exactly. It does not. No, it just hurts.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

And this is one of the perfect ways to exemplify how dangerous Scientology is to children.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yes, because kids haven't got a choice. And they don't, they don't get to, you know, they they don't get to say, I don't want you to touch me. Well, what's why? Yeah.

unknown 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

And if they've already done TRs, then they're already their boundaries are already destroyed and undermined. Um, so they have to keep their keep keep your TRs in and all this bogus nonsense that's again uh anyway. All right. Um, okay, let me see here. Before we go on to the next thing, yeah, but let's get out of this. Because before we cover this, I wanted to just cover a few questions with you, if you don't mind. Of course. Get back here. There we go. Okay. All right. So again, I thought this would be a really interesting conversation from the perspective of your linguistics degree and and also your personal experience

Linguistics And Why Kids Can’t Evaluate Claims

SPEAKER_03 42:30

of 20 plus years in Scientology. It was how many years?

SPEAKER_02 42:34

20.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

20. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Approximately.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Yeah. So from your perspective, um, why are children particularly vulnerable to ideological conditioning?

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Because uh their brains are malleable, you know, they they will take anything in that you give them and they cannot distinguish, right? Like when a child is first learning a language, they're just learning to mimic sounds, and then they assign the meaning to those sounds based on what you're telling them or what they're seeing in their environment. But this, they don't have that opportunity to kind of think and compare and look at, okay. So, this I'm saying tree, what does that mean? And you go over and you see a few different ones, then you ask mom and dad, which is you know, that's how you learn things, but not this, not with this. No, you don't get a choice, you are the meaning and the sounds are coming together at the same time, and the brain doesn't stand a chance, and that's so frightening to me.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yeah, you know, it really is. I know, especially like um, and and personally, I think this is true of any belief system. Yes, like uh to me uh with my kids, um, you know, we've we've always had open conversations, and I've always told them, you know. Uh, whatever when you're an adult and if you decide you want to go down a certain path, as long as it's an informed decision, I will, you know. Of course. I'm totally okay with that. And no matter what, I will always be here for you and always be here to help and support you.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Of course you will.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

But I would never uh uh you know require that of my children. Obviously, it's impacted by how I was raised. I'm not denying that. But, you know, again, it's like let's focus on what's important to give children those fundamental building blocks that set them up up to suit for success and to succeed as a human, like a good education, um, uh, you know, empathy, be kind to people, um, show show show people support when they need support. Like be the good you want to see in the world. Right. Just do be a good human, be polite, use your manners, you know, all those things. Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Um, this is this is interesting that I think I I made some notes here because I knew we were going to talk about this. And there is a uh a theorem in linguistics, it's it's the sep here whorf idea. And basically, you have?

SPEAKER_03 45:19

I have not.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

No, it's a pretty basic thing in linguistics, and uh people uh mistakenly assume it means that your language determines your thought. It's really not that, it's more like the categories that you that your language hands you uh shapes what you notice in the world and the distinctions you make of certain things. So, like, okay, a seven-year-old's only working vocabulary is oh, I don't know, uh PTS or overton withholds or a numbered tone scale, and that's how they will view the world. And they won't be able to have any other view because they're learning this from being a little kid.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Um, you know, different cultures have different words for different things because those things are important to them, right? Like I I forget in certain um certain Alaskan languages, there are multiple different words to describe snow because the snow is like pretty ubiquitous, and there's a lot of different types of snow for them.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

But you so think about it when you're talking about a little kid who's learning all they're learning is this. Yeah, this shapes their worldview then, and it's gonna be really hard to do this as they get older, you know.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

And believe me, it is really hard.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Girl, I was just gonna ask you. I mean, you've experienced this. See, at least I had an education, you know. I got into Scientology at 27, I wasn't born and raised in it. Yeah, so I was able when I got out, it took a long time, but slowly it all came back to me, and I was able to go, wait a minute, yeah. You I don't even know how you did it.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

I uh I mean, I've I've said often I've read so many books. Um because initially when I first got out, I was it's not I by the way, I never went through the what I've seen commonly, and I'm not judging anybody, however, they get out of Scientology, great, good for you. Uh you have my support. But when I say this, um I so I say it with love and acceptance that some people take different paths, and however they get out, what matters to me is that they do get out. Right. So some people get out and they're like, well, the organization is bad, but the tech, the technology, the the right written words, they're still all great.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Yeah, yeah. That was not my path.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Not either. Not my path. I was like, I see, I wouldn't want to be a don't let don't let the door hit the dark way out. Bye-bye. Yeah, no, and and it took me months, maybe years, to realize the reason that was for me is because I never chose Scientology. In my case, I never chose Scientology. Right. So I and now the way I consider it is that when Scientology became a choice, which was after I escaped, I decided I wanted nothing more to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

That being said, that takes a strong person, Claire.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Really? I mean, hey, I've made mistakes, you know, but I'm just gonna every day to be free and be alive and be here. Because I'm I'm positive. If if I hadn't escaped, I would no longer be uh living. I'm I just know that. I feel you. Yeah. Um I was in such a bad, such a, such a bad state when I escaped. I'm so literally glad you did. Anyway. But um so but still like the there's just layer upon layer that you have to dig through, like, oh, um Mark said something mean. Is that because he uh has committed overts? Did I miss a withhold? Like oh no. Having to unb, you know, and again, I didn't I no, I get it. The first thing I did was stop using the language, but that didn't that didn't peel out the the mental part of it. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

I was just gonna say that it's still in there, you're just not using the language, but the thoughts are there. It's like uh, you know, you think about this Scientology right now with these books, they're packaging ideology as literacy. So they're telling you, you know, this is what you need to think. And it's almost like you know, when you're a little kid and you memorize your ABCs.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Well, now you're memorizing the tone scale.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

So then this becomes your ideology, this becomes the way you think. You're memorizing uh, you know, I don't know, ARC, the eight dynamics, all these things, not your times tables or you know, that those kind of things, great, but this?

SPEAKER_03 50:16

Yeah, not even the history of Scientology, or you know, this is what this is about. Do you are you interested in learning about this? Not even that. Oh no, you know, consent is not the part of Scientology. You're you're with us or again or you're against us.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Win or die in the attempt.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yeah, turn that wondering gaze.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Dedicated glare, and she'll win and we all win. Oh god, Claire. Why do we never lose this?

SPEAKER_03 50:49

It's awful.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

It's awful. This and all the songs from like my kit my childhood. I remember all those too, like TV theme songs, and this.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

I thought you were gonna be like, We stand tall, no turning back, we'll find a way.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

And the whole, and the whole, the whole album. What was the name of the album? Uh The Road to Freedom.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

And then there was the joy of creating with Douglas.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Well, the joy of creating. Thank you for no, that was Road to Freedom Road of Freedom in Elvin Hubbard's voice. For you.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Sorry. No, it's okay. It's horrifying.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

And if I'm still thinking this, imagine if I were seven.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

I know that's that's that's the tragic, evil, deceptive part of this, which is why I want people to realize that this is very intentional and very deliberate, and Scientology knows exactly what they're doing. Nothing. Where'd you go? I've got I've pulled, I pulled a mark and hit a button, and I was like, poof.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Well, nothing they do is not intentional. Everything they do has a lot of thought behind it on how are we gonna suck them in? How are we gonna get them more money out of them? Because it's about money. Yes, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Um, okay, next question. What cognitive abilities are still developing at ages seven to ten?

SPEAKER_02 52:15

All of them.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Your brain, like, think about a young brain and what capability it has. Like you have not layered all this stuff on it yet. You haven't layered all this life experience. So it's just soaking everything in and then trying to differentiate, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Well, you can't, I mean, you know that what's the this part of the brain, you know, the frontal lobe isn't fully developed until you're about 25. So you're not making great choices anyway. But I'd rather you not make great choices and learn from them than have no choices.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

Oh and right now you have no choice.

SPEAKER_03 53:03

Yes, and that's the other thing, too. A Scientologist parent who says, Hey, Billy Bob, I want you to go into the Scientology organization and do these courses. You're gonna love them. And guess what happens if Billy Bob says, No, mom, I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Lower conditions, yep.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

And oh, Billy Bob might be a suppressive person and doesn't want to do Scientology.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Maybe my child is suppressive, like Sarry Cruz.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Anyway, oh my goodness, I know, seriously. Um frustrating. Okay, so here's another question for you from from that. I would love to hear your perspective on. How does a child distinguish between fact, belief, authority, and evidence?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

That's a really good question. Um, you know, if a child is not allowed to actually learn multiple viewpoints when they're young, then they can make no distinction. It's the same with with I won't say who, but certain homeschoolers, homeschool parents, and they're in it's the same kind of indoctrination where all they see is this, and they can only read these books and they can only look at these things. How do you make how do you discern what's true and not true for you? You know how Scientology says, Well, but you know, you can you can you decide what's true for you? That's crap.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

It's total belonging.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

They tell you what's true for you. Yep, and and when you're a little kid, that's the time like when you are most open. Like when you're older, sometimes your life experience has dulled your ability to see other viewpoints without something else getting in the way. When you're little, when your brain is still growing, you can look at things and not automatically form an opinion about them, but gather the data and then decide what opinion you want to have. Right. I mean, not with this, you can't.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

No, no, exactly. And some of the best learning moments I've had with my kids have been about asking them questions. Yes. Well, what do you what do you think about that? How did that make you feel? Right. Um, do you feel that you held you know handled that well, or is there something that you could have done better? Or, you know, like and that that is just not a part of any Scientology indoctrination at all.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

No, and it really it's it it does such a disservice to the child because you know, if your brain, if you don't use it, you lose it. That's the truth. Like your brain has neuroplasticity, which means it can always change and things can always improve. But conversely, if there's areas of your brain that you're really not using, they tend to, you know, shut down a little bit, go to the back burner, and you can becomes it becomes a trophied and when you use it, yeah, or atrophied, I should say.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

Um yeah, you reminded me of another example when you were asking about like undoing my childhood in Scientology. Um,

Leaving Scientology And Relearning Emotions

SPEAKER_03 56:20

so during our lawsuit, and maybe I already told you this story, so if I did just stop I've said it a few times. That's how you heal. It's a very, it's a very distinct memory for me. Um, so we were doing our deposition with Warren McShane from RTC and a whole slew of people from Office of Special Affairs, and they're live streaming it to David Miscavige. It was intimidating. And um, you know, and they were using communications from my mother to undermine me and really, really upset me and get on the skin. No, I usually okay, so one day I was driving my kids to preschool. They were uh three and one, and I was just bawling my eyes out. And um, and and actually that moment is what made me go, you know what? Screw it. I'm gonna go see a psychologist, and I don't care what Scientology thinks about this, I can decide if this helps me or doesn't help me, and god damn it, I'm gonna go find out. Right. And um and so in talking to the therapist, I was like, I I it's just really hurt hurting me that my kids are seeing me upset and I'm crying and da-da-da-da. And I don't wanna I don't want to emotionally damage my children with this. And she was like, she looked at me and she was like, Why would you not want them to see you crying? Right. I'm like, well, because I don't want them to be upset by that. And she was like, that, but that's normal human emotion, which you had no idea of. It was earth shattering, like, oh, of course, of course, no human is ever happy all of the goddamn time, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:17

You have to be tone 40 all the time.

SPEAKER_03 58:20

It was just, you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Well, that's great that that that that happened. But yeah, I've I've been through the same thing where why am I having these, I can't show people these emotions. Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

You absolutely can. And it's also, I will, I've also discovered that the indoctrination of Scientology uh made me emotionally volcanic. And what I mean by that is because I would hold something in so freaking hard, like, ah, and then it would just be like boom. I get it. Explosive emotions all over the place. Because, you know, it's not uh because I wouldn't work through and go, wow, I'm feeling really upset about this. Why am I feeling you know, let's let's really dig into this and sort through this and what's triggering me and what's what's going on here and you know, really work through it anyway. It's just crazy.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

No, I get it. I do.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Uh yes. Okay. Um, so I figured, uh, let me see how where we're how we're doing on time here. We always run out of time.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

We we girls crazy. This is what we do.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

It is.

Suri Noel And OSA Files On A Baby

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Uh so oh yeah, okay, perfect. So to wrap up, I figured, and bear with me, but let's have a conversation about the news this week. That Surrey Cruz is Surrey Noel and is no longer I'm this makes me so so grateful for Katie Holmes and for Strong Mothers. Right. Because I know um so many people would have been swayed and influenced by, you know, money, frankly. And power. Money and power. Money and power, exactly. Um, and and also I'm gonna show some slides here and we'll talk about this. But for context, Suri Cruz was born about oh, sorry, wipe that up. Suri Noel was born about two months after my first son. And at the time, Mark had started posting on the internet as Blown for Good, which then became the title of his book, Blown for Good behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology. And he was simply telling our experiences, you know, of the extreme abuse, physical, emotional, everything else, abuse by David Miscavige of his staff. And clearly, uh, well, it will be it will become clear to those of you watching that Office of Special Affairs was not a fan of these stories being made public. Um, and so in 2009, right after Mike Rinder gave all of his files to the FBI, he gave us files about that uh that uh from Office of Special Affairs about Mark and I. So in the context of talking about Suri Noelle um correctly isolating herself from her dangerous, abusive, neglective father, um, who has had no relationship with her since I think she was six or seven years old.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

You know, and what does that tell you about him? And people just ignore that. Again, money and power, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:40

Um, yeah, so let's get back to our slide layout here. Because my God, I've not talked about this because every time I even think about it, my blood pressure goes out the roof. But in this context, I'm going to. So let me get here. There we go. All right. We're back to our slides.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:04

Okay. So again, for context, this is an excerpt from the Office of Special Affairs files on BFG, aka Mark and Claire Headley from early 2006 around the time that Suri was born. So it says, Well, oh, so this is uh an excerpt of a post that Mark had made online where he said, Well, Shelly, Shelly Miscavige, has sent people into Tom's Tom Cruise's camp to have them security checked to find out who the leaks are. There was somebody in Tom's personal household that was leaking things to the press at the time, and that's what this is in reference to.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

Mark says, Well, that has obviously not been working. Chelsea, Chelsea Graves, Chelsea saw.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Oh, Chelsea Graves, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

Yeah. She is to this day still in Religious Technology Center. Is she? She is currently one of the arbitrators in the um Baxter Harris Lawsuit. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

Is she?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

So that's how we know that David Miscavige is monitoring that uh by the minute.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Of course he is.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

By her presence. Um anyway, not not to get off topic, but Chelsea needs a retread on her metering or security checking or both. So this is just Mark making a funny jab at clearly she's not Chelsea was not figuring out who the leak was through her security checking. So she's not doing her job.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:32

That's such a marked thing to say.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

Yeah. Anyway, and so then Mark says, anyway, this is the best part. There are people everywhere that are feeding data to the press, enemies, critics, etc. Okay. So then OSA says, Claire Headley would know that Mr. Graves was at Celebrity Center related to some Odin personnel situations. Again, that's Tom Cruise's personal staff. Right. Mr. Graves, Chelsea, security checked Leanne.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

I just love it's Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Graves, right? Right. I know. We're talking about Chelsea. A woman. Yeah. So in case you think we're joking when we say Mark used to call me Mr. Headley, absolutely. This is proof it's not.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

Um, Mr. Graves security check Leanne, Tom's sister. I don't know if Claire would have known this. However, Mr. Graves being at Celebrity Center was not a secret, i.e., people would have seen her there, and some people up lines could have known. Okay, so again, I'm just I'm including this because it's relevant to talk about how Scientology and the Office of Special Affairs talks about children. And here's the next slide. This is a picture, by the way, of my oldest son when he was a day old. No. My little babba. Little Bubba. This is Scientology's words about my about my family and my my child. The Hetleys had their kid in mid-February, and it's clear it's a big deal for them. Mark tried to call Claire's mother. Uh this baby's grandmother, and by the way, her first grandchild. Mark tried to call Claire's mother. This was, he called her while I was giving birth in the hospital, I remember. Uh Scientologist in good standing, Jen Witt, to tell her to go see it. This is Office of Special Affairs talking about a brand new baby being born. And Jen KR'd the attempt. She wrote this up. She wrote a knowledge report on her. Yes. I'm a grandmother. I don't even understand that. Yeah. The Hetley's put up a website for the kid with photos, and it's a really ugly, sickly looking kid that they are showing off. Could be some resentment. Are you freaking kidding me right now? Osa, wow, you are your own worst enemy. And anyone wonders why I still speak out about Scientology abuses to this goddamn day. This is the shit that they do.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

I don't wonder at all. Look at this.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

You know, but that's what we gotta tell people, don't understand how bad it really is. They don't. And this is a really good way to show what's really going on. First of all, it's not a baby, it's an it. Right. Second of all, why is he even trying to call your mom when you're having a baby? Right. Like, who does he think he is? Uh, this is not important to her anymore.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

She absolutely wants nothing to do with her grandbaby being born. Somebody asked us recently if disconnection is generational. Well, this is your answer right here. Right. What's this baby ever done wrong? I mean, it was just bored. It was a day old.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

That's a brand new little face.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:01

Yeah. The little tiny he. And who on earth baby shames, by the way? Oh, I know. Scientology does. Yes, they do. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

Because who cares about babies?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:13

We don't care.

unknown 1:07:14

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

They don't care. They don't care about babies. No, they do not.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Um, okay. So then this is, I think, our last slide. So yeah. Um why Tom Cruise's daughter. Suri has dropped his name, Suri Noel. Good for her. Good for her. Congratulations. Congratulations is right. And you know what? Um, thank goodness, you know, they would have gotten their claws in Surrey had Katie not rescued her. So you bet. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, don't had don't they have their claws in the other two?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

They do. The adopted kids, right? And Nicole doesn't even see them much, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

No, Connor and Isabella. Right. And um I write about that in my book too, but uh even back in um 2004, which I I'm uh which Connor at that time was nine years old, um Religious Technology Center arranged for him to get security checked because he was uh because Tom Cruise was comp complaining that Connor was not communicating well with him. So their solution was to security check a nine year old. Yeah, why would you as a father actually just talk to your son? Right. Here, you guys deal with it. Yeah, exactly. Right? I know absentee parent is parentism. Uh but it's actually way worse than absentee. Because it's like, oh, you know what? Instead of parenting you, let me turn you over to a dangerous, vindictive, and abusive. Yeah, what an idea. Turn you over to a cult. Yeah. They'll they'll get you in line. No problem. That's Tom Cruise about his children. Anyway, so yeah, thank goodness Suri is free and she has my greatest respect, as does Katie Holmes.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

But I figured Katie Holmes has my greatest respect also. That she was able to do what she did. Yes. Was incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

That's Mark Mark was actually strength. Mark had a few conversations with her dad leading up to that. Oh, cool. To help help him understand what he was up against and what to do and what not to do that wouldn't like trigger disconnection or isolation of, you know, anyway, it it's that's a whole other story. That's fascinating. Okay, okay, last but not least, and this is we're gonna this is a a sad, devastating story. But I again, in

Disconnection And The Loss Of Jack Denine

SPEAKER_03 1:09:35

the context of children and the dangers of Scientology, I wanted to talk about this. So this is Jack Denine. Um, he was a second-generation Scientologist and the beloved son of Richard and Dana Denine. He was active in Scientology up until his passing. He had chosen to disconnect from his family who had gotten out of Scientology. Um, Sonny Pereira put up a post about this. Um, and I really want to share this tragic story. Again, it's another loss of life of a second-generation Scientologist, which unfortunately is incredibly rampant. And it speaks to the horrors of disconnection and the loss of family and the absolute psychological and emotional devastation that Scientology can wreak on someone in their lowest moments. That the and that indoctrination leads them to be unable to ask for help or do anything uh or seek any kind of professional support, anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Oh, it's so incredibly heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

Yeah, it is. My uh my heart so hurts for the city. And I wonder I wonder how so you're saying his parents are out or not out? Out and he had disconnected from them and his sisters and oh my god, yeah. That's just uh so heartbreaking. I know. Anyway, I will include the link, please, um, to everybody helping get the word out, even just sharing this post to um help people understand that this is a very real danger. Um, you know, of course, uh the work that we do is in the hopes of preventing this from happening, but we don't always succeed. And um, so again, the more we can educate people and help them understand that um this is a very real common thing in Scientology that people get to the absolute point of desperation that they feel they have to take their own lives. It's horrifying. It is.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

I mean, we've seen it so much though. We have, and and people I don't think people believe it, even though it's sitting there staring them in the face.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:59

Right. This is this is a real person he left behind a wife and a 16-year-old daughter. This is the heartbreak and tragedy that Scientology is responsible for.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

And and now, this this end of this quote, he had chosen to disconnect from a portion of his family who had at points in the past decided that Scientology was not the path for them. Really?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:23

Yeah, I think that actually uh oh wait. Yeah. Yeah, that might be from Sonny's post. I'm not I'm not totally sure. Oh, you think?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:35

But it sounds like what a Scientology is.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:38

It's okay, it's okay. No, no, there's even less information on on the GoFundMe, they don't even say anything. They don't even say what happened. They definitely don't mention that he had family who got out of Scientology yet. So that's that's from Sonny's post. Oh, okay. The GoFundMe, no, no, it's all good. I I understand why you're saying that. And plus I know I are I didn't clarify. I know, I know, I didn't clarify what we were looking at either. But um, Sunny Sunny is out of Scientology. Oh, I know she's another second generation Scientologist, too. Maybe even third, I'm not sure. Um guys are tough, man. We're also uh I'm dead set on becoming Scientology's worst nightmare. And and that is awesome. You got this, girl. I'm behind you. United, we stand. Yeah, we we will be the dangerous cult. Okay, let me go back here.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Um You're not gonna show me those covers again, are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:35

No, I'm not. Um hold on. Let me get to the other layout that we were using before for consistency's sake.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

Um, I can't find it. I like how your little logo is right above, it was just right above my little heart. Nice.

Spotting These Books And What To Do

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Anyway, thank you for yeah, thank you for powering through this with me. Again, I felt very, very strongly that there were a lot of pieces to cover in regards to this. Um to anyone out there, if you do come across these books out in the real world, please let me know and we will figure out what can be promptly and appropriately done about that. Because again, the books do not say anywhere that they are Scientology. So, yes, they have L. Ron Hubbard's name on the front. And as you and I have covered, they are 100% entire uh Scientology indoctrination at children. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

Yeah, and the thing that I realize now, the more that I'm vocal about Scientology, is how many people still don't know a lot about it. I know. I know I'm shocked at how many people still don't know a lot about Scientology. Yeah, and L. Ron Hubbard, they're like, who's that? I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:45

I know. We met with um a local mayor here in Colorado who had assigned um Dianetics Day, not realizing it had anything to do with Scientology. And the minute we met with him and exposed to him, like, no, no, you were duped, they revoked it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:01

Wow, good for you. I mean, yeah, but it's it's wild. And so this is what I try to tell people. Like, I I see these Scientologists saying all these things about I'm a Scientology marriage counselor. Are you? What are your credentials? Because I did marriage counseling when I knew nothing, you know. Like uh it just blows my mind that these people think that they can. The good news is most of the people that are watching these videos are either uh plants, Scientology like shills that are in there just making nice comments, or most of the people are like, uh-huh. Right, no. Yep, we don't believe you.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

I know, I know for sure. Absolutely so the more we are out talking about the reality, the more people will stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:50

Yeah, hopefully. And we're just saying our lived experiences that's all these are things that you can find documented in the words of L. Ron Hubbard. Correct. So it's not an interpretation, it's not a rare case. This is Scientology for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:07

Yes, and these are, and that's the key. You know, you all you gotta do is talk about your experiences and people's jaws drop.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:16

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

Because this isn't this is some bad stuff here. What a mild.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:22

Yes, exactly. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Anne. We made it to the end. I so appreciate your time, comments. And again, just to reiterate, if there's any questions that you have about what we covered in this episode that we didn't touch on or answer, feel free to drop it in the comments and we will get that taken care of. Um thank you to everyone watching. Please don't forget to subscribe, like, share, help us get the word out. Thank you, Anne. Thank you, Claire, my love. Love you. Bye-bye.

Final Thanks And Support Links

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Zenu, Xenu is my homeboy, and BFG branded mouse, pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good, behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot. Until next time.