Life After A Cult - Scientology Stories #60

You can leave a cult and still feel trapped in your own head and that’s the part nobody prepares you for. I’m joined by author, activist, and longtime cult-recovery educator Chris Shelton to talk about his new book, What Now? A Practical Guide to Life After a Cult, and the real work that starts after you walk out the door.

We get into why so many people assume leaving is the finish line, even though it’s really step one. Chris breaks down how trauma can stay invisible, how “trauma comparison” derails healing, and why recovery timelines aren’t a competition. We also talk about the impact on families and friends who are trying to help someone still inside Scientology or another high-control group, including why yelling “it’s a cult” can backfire and what a calmer, smarter approach can look like.

Chris shares what surprised him most when studying coercive control academically, especially the crucial differences between ethical therapy and Scientology-style auditing. From there, we shift into practical next steps: Maslow’s hierarchy of needs as triage, the importance of a real support system, and why boundaries and critical thinking are essential skills for rebuilding your identity and learning to trust yourself again. If you’re searching for guidance on cult recovery, coercive control, religious trauma, or life after Scientology, this conversation offers grounded tools and language you can use immediately.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Opening And Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hello, and welcome back to the channel. My name is Claire Hetley. I'm your host for today, and this is Blown for Good, Scientology Exposed. Um, without further ado, my guest for today is our friend, author, let's see, fellow whistleblower, activist, victim advocate, and probably a long list of other things, but welcome to the show. Uh, here we go, Chris Shelton.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Hello. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Of course. Good to have you here. I actually think have have we done something on here with you before? I'm trying to remember. I know we've been on your channel before.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I think once, or I think I've been

Why What Now Exists

SPEAKER_02 1:06

on here once before, I think. But yeah, and I've had you all on my show as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yes, absolutely. Well, today we're congratulations on your new book, What Now? A practical guide to life after a cult. Very well done on getting this done, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Thank you. Yeah, years in the making, like any book out there, I guess, and uh a labor of love, to be sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yes, absolutely. Um, okay, let me pull up my notes here. I figured we could start with um just talking about. So you've written before about Scientology. You've written several books actually. Um, why did you feel that this was the book to write now?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Great, yeah. Um I thought that cult recovery uh is something not only that I've been doing and helping people with for a lot of years, but I thought I finally got to a place where I had something to say that would be useful to people about it in a book form. And I thought originally I had about 10 chapters put together of points that I'd wish the whole theme of the book is things I wish somebody had told me when I first got out of Scientology. Yes, or told me about, right? Yes, um, and not Scientology stuff, cult stuff, society stuff, people stuff. Because I came out thinking all Scientology all bad, world all good. Yeah, and the world's not necessarily all good or all bad, and um, Scientology isn't necessarily all good or all bad. There's everybody's got their own experiences with it. And the the recovery process I come to learn was not Scientology's assembly line, 12-step program. It's it's different for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

But there are but there are guideposts, there are there are common things we run into, and I've I wanted to elucidate, you know, kind of describe what those things were because I'm I I wanted to give people things. I'm not a therapist, I'm never pretended to be a therapist, I don't, I don't know therapy people, but I I do educate people, and I've always thought of myself as an educator. So um so I thought a little education would be useful, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yep, yeah.

Loved Ones Caught In The Wake

SPEAKER_00 3:17

And I love, you know, as I mentioned, I'm in the the process of reading um now, but I also love that you outlined specifically that this is also support for those impacted by cults, whether or not they were in a cult themselves, because so often I'm sure you've run into this many times, we certainly have, that the damage done to the loved ones adjacent to the person in a cult can be as bad or equally traumatic and equally of a very challenging and tough lived experience, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Oh my goodness, absolutely it is. In fact, uh, some of what we field with the aftermath is the family and friends of people who are stuck in Scientology and helping them deal with it, helping them understand what to say, what to do, how to think about it, because there's a lot of panic and there's a lot of concern and a lot of worry about it when people find out somebody's getting involved in a destructive cult situation like Scientology or you know, some kind of coercive situation, and they're like, Oh boy, I want to say something, but boy, I don't know what to say or what to do, and am I gonna make it worse? And sometimes you can. So often you can, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, the the human, the human knee-jerk reaction of stop, it's a cult, can you know, can often uh have sometimes what are you doing, you stupid idiot, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Which of course any teenager and any cult member, you know, it's like, of course, we're just gonna double down.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

So, you know, is this kind of thing. So there's ways to do this, ways to not do this. And I thought that these things would be just as useful to people who have survived any kind of coercion or coercive experience. The the, you know, the behavior's the same. So I thought that would be useful and for the family and friends of people like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yes, absolutely.

Where To Get The Book

SPEAKER_00 5:11

And before we go any further, for anyone listening, would you like to tell them where where and how to best support and get a copy of your book?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Oh, sure. Yeah, let's do it. So basically, I've self-published on Amazon and also Ingram Spark, which means you can go anywhere and order my book. You can walk into a Barnes Noble and say, Hey, I want that new cult recovery book by Chris Shelton, and they'll look it up for you and you can order it there. Um, or you can get it, like I said, on Amazon. And the um it's ebook and uh print on demand, and then the audiobook is about two or three weeks away from being finished.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Nice. Recorded by you, I'm right here. Of course. Yeah, you know, I don't know about you, but um I because you know, driving the kids around, work, and running up mountains and whatever, all the things that I do in my day-to-day life, uh, I've become very dependent on audiobooks. And specifically with Scientology books, the language is so challenging that when it's not read by the author themselves or andor someone who knows and understands the language, there can be huge mistakes that while they might seem minor in the overall scheme of things, to me as the reader makes it just feel not so authentic.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Uh yeah, yeah. I always love it when somebody refers to the Thetans.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yes. Yeah, or or arc break instead of A or C break, or flow instead of FLO. I mean, not that I've run into any.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Exactly. Not that we see these things every day.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah. And it, you know, again, it's not a big deal. I I know what's being referred to. It's just that I don't know. I guess there's a piece of me too that goes, the language is so precise that uh it just should be accurately referenced. Not that not as a belief thing, but as a that was, you know, again, it's just it's one of my pet peeves.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Well, you and me both. I every single time I'm and I and I don't want to be like the pronunciation Nazi, but I just can't help it when it comes to stuff like that. Yes. And there's and of course, you know, I I also understand there's so much language in Scientology that it's hard for people.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Oh, it's exhausting. It's uh, and like I said, yeah, and and I will say that's the challenge that I'm running into in doing my memoir. Like uh, you know, when Mark wrote his book, it was very specifically like, okay, I'm just gonna use all the language, which can make it hard for somebody who hasn't been in Scientology to make it through all that because it's, you know, as we know, like a quagmire of terminology. Um anyway, I'm I'm trying to keep mine in my book very intentionally to a minimum and only use it to describe specific circumstances where it's necessary. Anyway, that that's it's just a different difference of approach. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Absolutely. Well, you know, this, I mean, my first book, I had to, there's a whole appendix, which is just a just a whole glossary. I mean, there's just pages and pages of definitions of Scientology specific words because I had and I had to write them all in English, because of course I couldn't just quote Hubbard's gibberish. So yeah, I totally get it. It's it's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yes, absolutely. Um, so okay, so back to your book, What Now? Practical a practical guide to life after a cult. Another question I wanted to ask you. So you described

Leaving Is The Starting Line

SPEAKER_00 8:55

leaving a cult as the beginning versus the end of recovery.

unknown 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Um, what made you realize that and specifically want to kind of target that as a concept?

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah, it was a big deal for me because when I first got out of Scientology, I actually remember this, this whole train of thought happening, uh, I guess what, 13 years ago, of starting a channel uh within about a year or so, or actually a few months of getting out of Scientology. And um thinking to myself, okay, this is something I'm gonna get through, get past, get over, right? Move on from. And I told people around me, if I'm still talking about Scientology in a year, you know, you have permission to shoot me, right? This should be all out of my system by then, right? It'll be I give myself a year, it'll be great, right? And in the Scientology mindset of always taking the time out of things and always trying to like, you know, make everything happen quick, quick, quick. Um, that sounded very realistic and very, very easy. And after a year had passed and I had just barely started, it it just the thought barely occurred to me that maybe I might be suppressing some emotions. Maybe I might possibly have a few um compulsions when it came to how I talked to other people and how I felt that I needed to download everything to them, how I needed to report daily to people near me about every single thing I was doing, because I needed to be fully transparent because everybody clear, you know, clearly wants to know all this information from me all every time they see me. And it was very, very awkward. And I didn't even know. I was so locked in the way I was in Scientology that you know, acclimating to the real world was a slow process. And I was trying, I was working at it, and it was still taking a long time. And a year later, I was like laughing at myself, like a year, what was I thinking? And about three years after that, I look back and I just, you know, I just couldn't stop laughing. So it's uh it's been a years-long process, and I wanted to make it clear to people that this isn't a judgment, this isn't a competition, it's certainly not a race. It's it's your process. And it took for me, for you, for so many of us, it was years in the making. And so to imagine it's gonna be months in the demaking is pretty silly.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yes, no, absolutely. And it's funny, um, you remind me as you're speaking that um, because I've thought recently about you know, recovery as a process and is there an end to it? And I've re more recently concluded that there isn't going to be an end to it. I'm always gonna learn new things about my lived experience and change perspectives on things. But my thinking prior to that was somewhat unintentionally Scientological in the the pat the pattern of oh, you you do something until you're fixed and you've reached the end phenomena and now you're done with that, and now you move on, you know. Uh, and that's not reality, right? Is that your reality? Or how uh what you know, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Well, it's funny because I was literally talking to my therapist yesterday about this, and um, and it's been a lot of years, right? And I'm not and I've made incredible progress in science in in shedding a lot of the nonsense of Scientology. So I've I feel a few years ago I got to a place where I said, look, I feel pretty recovered from this, but that doesn't mean that I'm never gonna have another nightmare, I'm never gonna have another language slip up, I'm not going to somehow, you know, impulsively or compulsively think that maybe somebody's PTS, you know, although I haven't had that thought in many years. But it used to be almost daily, right? You'd see somebody sick, you just couldn't help it. Oh, I wonder who the SP is, right? And um, and those habits, those habits are so ingrained that it just takes a long time, sometimes years, to to rewrite them the you know, the neural pathways. So I gave myself a lot, a lot, a lot of leeway and a lot of patience with it. And I encourage other people to do the same. It's well our brains are unique to us, and so it's it's hard to judge how long it's going to take. And comparison is another another real important expression in cult recovery. It comparison is the thief of joy, right? Don't don't compare yourself to other people in this process.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Um, you know, it's your process, your path, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, and I and I would add to that too, I've learned how damaging trauma comparison can be.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

It's not the trauma Olympics, folks. Yeah, so much.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

But it's like, oh, you know, my story wasn't as bad as X, Y, and Z. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't don't do that, don't go there. That's um, because it tends to shut down recovery, in my opinion. Now, you know, reflecting back, I did that many, many times. And finally, I was just like, no, this is not a healthy thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

No, no, and and and learning, you know, that's why I actually put a whole chapter together on the topic of trauma so people could get a little primer on it, right? A little quick, you know, here's what it is, and here's what you're dealing with, because it's not engrams, right? And it's not secondaries, it's something very, very different and it and it lives in your body. And I base a lot of my my writing on Bessel Vandercock's, you know, The Body Keeps the Score and other modern studies on on trauma since that book. And um, and there's a tremendous amount to know about it that has absolutely nothing to do with our past teachings about, you know, how where where bad stuff comes from in your mind. Um, so I had so you have to kind of unlearn all that and then kind of learn enough about this way of thinking about it, you know, according to actual psychology. And you find very, very quickly when you learn about it that there is that not only is competition or thinking that way silly, but it's actually just impossible because all of us are experiencing trauma in a very individual way. And what will traumatize Joe isn't what's gonna traumatize, you know, Sally, and vice versa, right? And I um every single time now that people tell talk to me and go, oh, well, my experience was nothing like yours, I just go, nope, stop right there. Yeah, your experience was yours, and I it has nothing to do with mine.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yes, absolutely, for sure. And I've seen that so many times too, on a on a different from a different perspective. Like what I, if I'm sharing something about my experiences, what I'm traumatized by in that experience might be very different from like what you relate to as I'm telling you that, you know, you might be completely taken aback by something that to me is like, well, you know, sure, that was a part of it, but that wasn't the big deal. It's just right, it's just fascinating to me. You know, it is, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yep, in and out of therapy, because sometimes the therapists will be like, What?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

And you're like, what, what? What do you mean? And they're like, that sounds awful. You're like, oh no, it was just another day.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Right. Yeah, so true. Oh my goodness, so true.

Trauma Comparison And Patience

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Um, I also wanted to ask what surprised you most while researching coercive control academically that you didn't fully understand from your own experience.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Oh, wow, that's a great question. Nobody's ever asked me that. Um yeah, doing the program, uh, the the master's program in the psychology of coercive control was a unique and very special experience. And I and I encourage anybody who could pursue that to do so because it's a wonderful, wonderful program, not for catharsis, but for understanding. Um, and which of course does give some catharsis. While I was in the process of that, it was it was a very, very difficult thing to do. Um I went through a lot of ups and downs and a lot of running into my head brick, you know, into brick walls, because I kept bringing these habitual ideas of what therapy or counseling is based on auditing. And and the auditing model is not the therapy model, but they look similar from the outside. So you can be easily fooled, and I was by the trappings of auditing, and you try to bring that over into therapy in any way, and it just falls apart so fast. It ended up being a part of the subject of what I did my final thesis on was this point, and the fact that, for example, they're locking you in a room in an auditing session, which a therapist would never do in any ethical sense, right? Yeah, or not let you out when you want to get up and leave. You know, no, no, no, we're not done with the process yet, so we're gonna continue.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

And very specifically position the auditor in such a way that they can physically block you trying to exit the room if they need to.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Exactly. That framework is a framework of coercive control, that auditing is controlling you from the mighty from the second you walk in the room. Therapy is not, and it's such a different thing that it took me a while to get my head around what I was learning about, which were therapeutic modalities and therapeutic frameworks and how therapy works. I'm not a therapist, but we dived into that stuff as part of the program and it was really illuminating. But it but it forced me to have to rework so many ideas in my head about psychology and how it actually is done. And I'm thankful for that because I um I tried to do a debunk of psychiatry and psychology nonsense from Scientology when I first got out, but this was taking it to a whole new level of understanding. And I think that was one of the things I just didn't see coming at all when I got into the program.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Makes sense. Yeah, which by the way, um, I'm sure you we may have talked about this before, but it still shocks me to reflect back on the cons like the fact that any current Scientologist would absolutely not read any of the you know classic or the the body of information that makes up psychology, psychiatry, psychotherapy, all of that. And yet every single one of those textbooks was in L. Ron Hubbard's personal library.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Of course. Right. Know your enemy, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Oh, yeah. So hypocritical. I know. It's like really you can't read that, but he can, and he can, you know, oh yeah, because if you read it, you'd see where he poached different pieces from, like you said, to present as from the outside looking in, like, oh, this is just another form of therapy. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Exactly. Exactly. It was never meant to be that. And um, I mean, right from the get-go, and it's pretty clear once you look at it all with educated eyes, you know what Hubbard was up to.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

So Yeah, for sure.

Coercive Control And Auditing Versus Therapy

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Um So, why do you think so many people think that leaving is the finish line when it comes to a cult or any kind of you know cultish environment when it's actually in reality the starting line?

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Yeah, it really is step one, just you know, physically getting out. And there's an expectation in the world that if somebody can't see something wrong with you, then there isn't something wrong with you. And we've only very recently in the last many decades started culturally to accept the idea that mental health issues could be just as disabling or even more so than physical disabilities or physical damage. And yet this persists, this this old school's old style way of thinking. Well, you look okay, so what's the problem? And uh, if you could see the mental scars or the emotional damage or the moral damage that's done to people and in certain experiences and the trauma that they carry around with them, and it would be a lot easier to get along in society. You know, I always compare it to um I I try to make this comparison because I think everybody's familiar with with uh Christmas Carol and Jacob Marley and in all those chains he's carrying around with him. And those are very real. And and in the and in the book, I I thought that was a good uh analogy or whatever, because you can see them, and that's that's what we don't see with cult survivors. And sometimes they don't see it in themselves either, because trauma hides itself and it's a little invisible and it goes dark and it's not easy to pull up in the memory banks. And so they'll think there's nothing wrong with them when there's These demons buried inside. And I don't mind to set people up as being afraid of their own minds. It's just sometimes we've got stuff buried in there. And it needs to come out. And if we don't know how to get it out of there, it can come out in weird, unexpected, and strange ways. And then people are acting funny and we don't understand. And I think this has a lot to do with the general illiteracy around the subject of trauma and influence and manipulation and coercion and that sort of thing, which is why we have such a job ahead of us educating everybody in these things so that we're but we are, and we are changing society as a result.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yes, absolutely. Um what are some of the biggest mistakes former members make in the first year, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Oh wow. Um I think that they can set themselves up for failure if they're immediately looking for a substitute for what they came out of, and a lot of people will.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, and that and and it's okay not to know, it's okay to to be uncertain. Yeah, no, that that absolutely makes sense. And the thing that I've seen a lot, and I'm sure you have too, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, is part of that initial process includes the questioning, like, was this the right choice?

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Or, you know, like was I think that's where the support systems really come in.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Um, I think that's why the aftermath is so important for ex-scientologists and why there's, you know, there's other groups for other folks. But I that support system, having a support system, and this I talk about this a lot in the book because I I feel it's really, really, really important. It certainly was for me. I couldn't have even walked out the door if I didn't know that my parents were going to, you know, be there for me when I left. And I was very lucky in that way. A lot, you know, a lot of people don't have family to go back to. Um, you know, and that's why the aftermath has to exist, because there's a ton of people in coming out of Scientology who have nothing. So I think that's really important too to prevent that kind of fall, that that, you know, kind of being buffeted about by life after you leave is, you know, is try really, really hard not to go it alone. Yes. Completely. Because you're not alone. You don't have to be alone. There are so much support out here.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yes, no, absolutely. That's and you're right, that's where the, for example, the online support group program that the Aftermath Foundation runs now has been just so incredibly successful. And, you know, having you help us and other people, you know, peer support and community support and connecting people. And I would love to eventually figure out a way, a safe way to have a mentor system in place, you know, like a so it's a just um, I don't know, it's something we've batted around for a while because you're right, it absolutely is. And so often, too, and again, I'm sure you've seen this so many times, even the people in Scientology or in a cult have often hurt their family members not in the cult. So, and because of those actions, think that, oh, those family would not be there for me. And it's 98% of the time so very wrong.

unknown 26:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

That's right. That's right. But they have to kind of put those feelers out there, and if they get some help doing that, it's you know, we can facilitate that. Yeah, it's it's a um challenge to say the least. And I found in the intervention work that I've done, I've only you know been involved in a few of those, but it's been a real eye-opening experience to to go, you know, work and this isn't aftermath stuff, this is different stuff, but just you know, reaching in and trying to pull somebody out. Um, boy, you know, it's really, really interesting work because I one of the things that was was not obvious at the beginning was how dysfunctional families will drive people into these groups in the first place. And so they're that so they they there's nothing for them to come back to because it was the you know, dysfunctional is what got them there. So um, so I don't like I said, social support systems are just so important.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Yes, absolutely, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Community and and knowing the pitfalls of them.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Oh, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

I know you and I might know a little bit about you know ex-cult spaces and how they can have their own challenges.

Support Systems Plus Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Oh my gosh, yes, sir. Right, and I wanted to address rodeo.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

I I wanted to address some of that in a neutral and sort of like matter-of-fact way, you know, as well, so as to give people some heads up that you're going into spaces where you're there's a great deal of support available to you and new new friendships, new relationships, but also keep your eyes open because yeah, it's you know, there's and yeah, and for me, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but you know, and and again, I've done a lot of work with my therapist on this.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

But being that I was born into Scientology and raised in the C organization, the concept of a boundary and setting boundaries did not exist at all for me. So, you know, like I left and it was like, oh, yay, uh, you know, all people are, you know, everyone has the same intentions as me. And let me welcome them with open arms and we'll do this together. Yeah, and that's that's dangerous too.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

That's right. That's exactly right. In fact, I'll I have a whole chapter on boundaries uh for that exact reason, um, because we're not taught them. And I, you know, growing up in Scientology had the same problem. And and in fact, that over-sharing I was talking about, that's you know, no boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Um, and I and feeling like you have to be transparent all the time, or you have to somehow give everybody a daily report or something.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

So time, place, form, and event. Exactly. When was it?

SPEAKER_02 29:31

I want the form, damn it. Give me the form now. So yeah, it's and really, really feeling in a really basic way, like really deep down, right? Like this is how you're supposed to be. This is how you're supposed to act with other people. They really want to know this information. You really need to tell them this, you really need to be open. And and and and flipping that switch or even learning that there are switches you can flip is really revelatory as far as boundaries go. I'm convinced, actually, that I think if we if if there is no one thing that's gonna prevent people from getting into a cult. Just let's get let's just maybe say that is my opinion, but I believe it's true. I don't think there's any one skill set or one thing you can teach people that's gonna armor them up from everybody, right? But I do believe that the simplest, most direct, and um uh one of the more powerful things that you can teach even children is boundaries. You can do it with graphics alone, practically, and you can really set people up for success. Because if people draw boundaries successfully and really kind of know how to do that, I they they could theoretically avoid any coercive control of any kind.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yes, absolutely. And to me, in addition to boundaries, it's also just keeping an open mind and asking yourself questions like constantly how is this making me feel? Is this what I expected? Is this what I signed up for? You know, why, if this is a good thing, why is it a good thing? And what is it doing that's good? All those, you know, all those things, the critical thinking piece of you know, just keep an open mind. And if it's not what you signed up for, then GTFO.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Exactly. And knowing you always have those choices available to you.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Um, and that that critical thinking component is a whole nother chapter because it's also just that was my first big, you know, thing was critical thinking. And I identified so heavily with it for a few years, that's all I talked about. But it's the the full range of tools or for you know, are a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yes, no, absolutely. Nice. Um, let's see here. Um okay, another question I wanted to ask you. So many people expect to, on exiting a cult, whether it be Scientology or whatever, they expect to feel free immediately. Instead, they often feel lost. Why, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_02 32:06

I think they're going through stages. Um, just like when we went into the cult, we went through stages often. I mean, those of us who were raised in it, maybe a little different. But when recruited in, you go through this big honeymoon phase. It's just like new relationship energy. You're just like, oh, and it's infatuation time and it's like deep love. And I just never found any group just quite like this. And then, of course, they're love bombing you. And you fall in love with this group in a way. And then when you are falling out of love and then you leave, it's supposed to all just be, oh, well, this is done now, and I'm all good. And it's like, no, uh, there's an immediate release, and usually that's pretty good feeling. People pretty generally feel wonderful when they first step out because they're taking a causative, you know, action by their own choice. And, you know, I'm doing this and I'm leaving this trauma and this abuse behind. And it's great until then things start. Wait a minute, all the second thoughts and uncertainties that we've been talking about start settling in. And that's sort of a phase, and it's something to go through. Um, I think there's a lot of emotions and a lot of feelings that people are going to experience, and they're going to experience them in a lot of different ways, depending on what part of the group appealed to them most or what part of the experience you know they were most invested in. For some, it's community. They're just gonna miss those people so much. And that's gonna maybe suck them back or make or pull them in that direction, whereas others might be, but it brought so much good sense or the techniques were so good, or whatever it, you know, whatever the other thing is that appeals to people about this stuff. Um, and they're looking for a substitute. And and and what I'm proposing, at least in in the way I deal with this, is um, no, let's learn about what was done to you so that when you find new things to do, it doesn't have to be a substitute for that. You're you don't need a substitute for that. Right. That that for me would be a pretty ideal place to get to, you know, if there is a place to get to in terms of uh recovery.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yes, no, absolutely. And speaking of that loyalty piece and the, you know, leaving the people behind, that was one of the things I've that really struck me when I was reading the book uh trauma and recovery by Judith Herman, um, in relation to the studies that were done of desertions from the military and PTSD in relation to the wars, you know, historically huge, terrible wars, was that they found that keeping the soldiers in groups of five made them far less likely to desert because of that exact piece. And I was like, oh, isn't that interesting? Scientology uses that exact number.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Right out of the military. That's right. I'm pretty sure Hubbard was cribbing a lot of stuff from the Navy.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Oh, for sure. Yeah, 100%. Not least of which the uniforms, the ranks, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Yes, sir, no. Oh my career.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah. Um okay, another question

First Steps And Rebuilding Identity

SPEAKER_00 35:17

I wanted to ask you. So if someone left Scientology, or for that matter, any cult yesterday, let's say, what are the first three things you'd tell them?

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Uh, do you have transportation? Do you have food? Do you have a place to stay? Do you have do you have a uh solid, you know, secure living quarters? Are your basic physical needs taken care of? Because nothing else matters until that, until that is dealt with.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah. I I love that you included Maslow's hierarchy too, because um in your book, because um somebody that I has mentored me in relation to nonprofit work for many years, um, kind of took first told me about that a few years ago. And I was like, wow, that makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yes, it does. And it's um, and that first level is the most important. And I I think I actually said put that in the intro or chapter one of the book too, is like, look, if if you don't have those three things taken care of, put the book down. Go go deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yep, exactly. And then we can talk. We use that uh for the crisis line too. Like, are you in a safe place to talk? And you know, if not, then help them get to a safe place, you know. Again, it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah, you just climb in that pyramid with people, you know, as you're as you do in this process. And there's this concept of self-actualization at the top, and you know, the new age, you know, cult human potential movement stuff kind of took that in some pretty weird places, but but it's really just the idea of coming into your own as a as an as an individual.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

And and that's a perfectly good place to want to go. And it starts with basic physical needs. And and the funny thing about that whole the really cool thing about it is learning that you you you can't get to those top levels if those bottom ones are empty or not being paid attention to. And we who were food deprived, sleep deprived, constantly deprived of almost any human you know, connection could never get to a place of self-actualization that Scientology was promising us because they kept cutting out the bottom.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

I I I I hadn't thought about that when I was in, and when I learned about that, you know, about that whole theory of that, I thought, oh, you know, another another way Hubbard was screwing us.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Oh my gosh. So true. Um, let's see. How do you so okay? Here's another question I wanted to ask you. How do you begin rebuilding your own identity after spending years having one assigned to you? I'm sure you cover that in in the book, but I I would love to get your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Absolutely. It's a great, great question. And personality theory is a big wide field in psychology, and I'm not pretending to be a full expert in it, but I um I know that you have to unlearn an awful lot of stuff. The cult is all about laying their template of identity over you, and you're supposed to conform to this identity. And I the another way I talk about it is um to talk about channels, not choices. You're put on a channel. This is your post, this is your job, this is your route, you know, and this is the channel you're on. And when you're on a channel, then you have um a very fixed identity that has only very, very fixed choices. The whole routing form thing kind of personifies this actually. Um, and our identity gets locked into these things, where that becomes the totality of who we are. Yeah, we can't think outside those guardrails or think outside those boxes. And so it's hard to just start thinking, okay, start thinking outside the boxes now. Uh, how do I do that? Well, first you got to figure out what the box is and what it's made of and what agreements were there and how that looked and how that worked. And and I think that's where that deconstruction process is part of the beginning of building something back up, is first taking apart what was artificially put there for you and enforced on you. And it was enforced on us as second gens right from the get-go, right out of the gate, we had a ready-made, you know, like kind of a hat, if you will, uh, except it was an identity. And it was here you go, this is how you are to be. Um and it involves an awful lot in in groups like Scientology, it involves an awful lot of emotional manipulation and emotional policing and and even tone policing. And and then, of course, you get to the moral stuff, and it's just, you know, it they're just rewriting who you basically are at a very basic level. Yeah. So the idea that you're just gonna, ah, I'm gonna be better now, there's a you you it it's a deconstruction process and a reconstruction process. And I think that's true for first or second gen.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. Um, yeah, the whole, I mean, Scientology plays on the whole freedom from my narrative, you know, oh my gosh, insert eye roll, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Oh, Hubbard. Yeah, he he brought out all the tropes and stereotypes he did.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Oh, so exhausting. Um, what are your thoughts on on like how how do you learn to trust yourself after an experience like that?

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Oh boy, that's a great question. Um, basically, it has to do with proving to yourself that you can actually pull stuff off on your own mat, right? And trust yourself again by proving through action and through deed, right, that you are trustworthy to yourself, taking care of yourself, um, following through on things you want to do. Uh and all of this tempered, of course, by you know, whatever levels of neurodivergency we might be experiencing. There's also a certain degree of giving yourself a break. See, there's a balance here in the post-cult life that we never had when we were in, which is, you know, it took me about three years. I I really do think it was about three years before I could really even start comfortably relaxing on the couch uh after work, right? Because, you know, I was just work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work all the time.

SPEAKER_03 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Um, it takes time to let go of the programming, let go of the conditioning. And um, if you're proactively taking it apart, you know, and and pursuing that, it goes faster.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Um, you know, doing things like dumping the language, that doesn't occur to everybody right away.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Oh my gosh. That was one of the first things that we did, and it was so huge. Like it really was huge. Yeah. Out of your your physical language and also your thoughts. Um, walking that back. Oh my gosh, I th yeah, to me, that was probably one of the singular most helpful first steps. Um, yeah, I was gonna mention, you know, I as you know, Mark does audiovisual for museums and things like that. And a number of years ago, he did um a Ray Charles library, like a memorial library. And um, in there there was a video of B.B. King talking about Ray Charles, and he was like, Ray would always say, you know, at the end of the day, when you lay down your head on the pillow, the person you have to be at peace with is yourself. And to, I mean, it sounds so ridiculously simple, but to me, that was just beyond revolutionary. Like, yeah, exactly. I made my decisions and I'm at peace with them.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

That's right. That's right. And that, and really taking ownership for your life in a way that is not the enforced responsibility of Scientology.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Because they twist up Scientology, they twist up responsibility so bad, so bad. You really have no idea what responsibility is when you come out of Scientology because it's just nothing but blame and fault finding, you know, and stuff like that. And we can run that on ourselves too, which is what another reason why I stress those really powerful corruptors of of our own self-image. You know, I'm such an irresponsible, you know, unproductive.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Look at my I was gonna say that way, you know, and out of other fish to fry, blah, blah, blah, counterintention, off purpose.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Oh my God, there's endless labels for it. For that's right, there's considerations.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

So exactly. And so the faster we dump the language, the faster we actually dump a lot of that. You know, that we still get twisted up with with words like responsibility because people use it in the real world, but um, but we get there.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah. Yeah. At least I know, and you're right, the the subtle, the subtleties of the twists in language are just mindfulness. Boggling like critical thinking in Scientology is a crime, right? That's right. That's right. I used to tell people, yeah, you can't be critical in Scientology because you're being critical.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

You got over it, buddy. You're critical.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

I know. I remember kind of doing a double take when my kids were in school and the the teachers were like, Yeah, in this curriculum, we teach them critical things. I was like, wait, what? Uh okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good thing. That's a good thing. Never mind. As you were, keep yes, definitely teach them critical thinking. Oh my goodness. Um, let's see here.

Writing Reflections And Lightning Round

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Um, did writing the book change anything about your own recovery? Do you feel?

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Oh, yeah. Oh, very much so. Um, it's it's interesting to revisit things. One of the things I encourage people to do is it how the book's put together, you can read it any order you want. It's not a have to read it beginning to end, although you certainly can. And it's kind of a summation of everything I've learned over the last 12, 13 years. That's that's kind of what the book is. And so I had to go back over it all again. And in the process of doing that, I was going through all my old podcasts and through all my old interviews and stuff, right? Anything that had to do with cult recovery, I was pulling it up. And so I was pulling up all kinds of stuff I'd forgotten about, or oh, that's where I got that from, and those kind of things. It was real fun, it was a real blast from the past kind of stuff. But it also brought home the stuff about, you know, it it was it was nice to see. Here's here's my own personal experience with with writing the book was it was really fun to go revisit some old things and see how much I had now incorporated them into my life and how alien they were to me, you know, seven, eight years ago, and how they're so different to me now. Things like boundaries. I mean, somebody violates my boundaries now. I'm just like, get the fuck out of here, right? It's just not even a problem. I'm not I'm not interested in people. Oh, sorry, can I swear?

SPEAKER_00 45:59

Of course you can. I thought so. I just want to make sure. Um folks, that's what happens when we talk about Scientology. I hate to break it to you. Pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

So it was fun to go back and see how some of these things had that in other words, maybe that I had made more progress than I had even realized.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

And how and how nice that was to see. Um, we can be really negative. We have a negativity bias. And it's it's sometimes we have to go back and remind ourselves that we've actually made some uh uh you know accomplishments or or made some progress.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Yes, absolutely. Well said for sure. Um okay, so maybe we should do a part two when I have finished your book, if you're okay with that. Um we'll we try to keep these to an hour, and we're almost at an hour already, if you can believe that. Um, but I was wondering if you'd be willing to do something a little fun at the end that I sometimes do, which is what, you know, it's like a lightning round.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Oh, do it. Bring it.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Okay. Yeah. Um, so I'll just, you know, say the question. It doesn't have to be one word, but you know, your snap answer is that's that's the idea. Great. Like I said, so it's ends on a fun higher note, in my opinion. Um, biggest myth about cult recovery.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Oh, um, biggest myth that it has to take a long time was my first answer.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Okay, fair enough. Good job. Um, most overstated piece of recovery advice.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Um get therapy.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Okay, good. Most underrated.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Uh get educated.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, that's a really good one. Especially, I mean, I'm sure it's true for other cults too, but yeah, education is something that yeah, uh you experience, I experience it, especially in Scientology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Um, book everyone leaving a high control group should read, besides yours, of course.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Of course, yes, besides mine. Um uh well, when it comes to Scientology, there's a piece of blue sky. Uh it's just unavoidable. You can't get around it. You gotta read it if you're an ex-scientologist. Um, as far as cult stuff in general goes, um Taking Back Your Life by Um Yan Yelch. Uh, I think Margaret Tobias Margaret Singer. I'm sorry if I got that. My my authors are all over the place on that one.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Yeah. Taking back your life.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Perfect. Uh one word that describes freedom today.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

I mean, I was gonna say liberty, but that's just a synonym. Um one word that describes freedom. Choice.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

There you go. I was I it's funny. I I had a flash thought that you were gonna say that. I I completely agree. All right, finish the sentence. You ready?

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Recovery begins when you realize it. Yes, good well said, well said. Awesome. Well, congratulations, Chris, and thank you again, as always, for the work that you do in this space and for um making this book happen. Um, we're super grateful to collaborate with you on a regular basis. Um, you know, I I know it's it's not always easy, but I I certainly appreciate the work that you do. So thank you for that. And and of course, send me whatever links you'd like me to include for the audience. I'm sure many listening today have heard of you, but for anyone who hasn't, definitely get on over to Chris's socials and subscribe. And you have, I mean, gosh, you have an incredible library of videos on Scientology and all different topics at this point, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Yes, over a thousand videos uh breaking down Scientology, cult recovery, cult deconstruction, how to talk to people who are in cults, how to help people out of them. I mean, there's just uh this this whole process of my own recovery has been documented on my channel on a weekly basis. So there's a lot there.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Yes, no, absolutely. And and again, thank you for steadfastly putting in the work and your commitment to this space. And um, yeah, and congratulations on your new book.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yeah, absolutely. I will talk to you soon. Bye, everybody.

Final Links And Channel Support

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Zenu. Zenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good, Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology, in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.