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The Homeschool How To
I don't claim to know anything about homeschooling, so I set out on a journey to ask the people who do! Join me as I chat with homeschoolers to discuss; "why are people homeschooling," "what are all the ways people are using to homeschool today," and ultimately, "should I homeschool my kids?"
The Homeschool How To
#93: Nature-Based Learning: Outdoor Education and Child-Led Play with Ade Hoffman
Join us for an enlightening conversation with Ade Hoffman from Nature Play All Day as she unveils her inspiring journey from a traditional classroom in Texas to launching a groundbreaking nature-based education program in Maine. Ade's experiences with European outdoor schools sparked a vision for an educational model that emphasizes outdoor play and practical skills, moving beyond the four walls of conventional learning. Discover how the challenges of COVID-19 catalyzed her transition to homeschooling support and ultimately led to the establishment of a licensed facility. Ade shares her candid insights on the transformative power of nature-based learning, particularly in boosting children's confidence and survival instincts through risky play.
The episode underscores the crucial role of play in developing problem-solving and social skills, regardless of age. Ade shares anecdotes of incredible growth witnessed in child-led, nature-based environments, even in Maine's harsh winters. With practical advice for parents interested in initiating similar programs, Ade highlights the importance of community-based groups and local nature centers. Allow your own curiosity to flourish as you consider the benefits of giving children the freedom to explore and thrive in natural settings.
Ade's FREE Guide on Why Play Matters More
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www.natureplayallday.org
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Welcome to this week's episode of the Homeschool How-To. I'm Cheryl and I invite you to join me on my quest to find out why are people homeschooling, how do you do it, how does it differ from region to region? And should I homeschool my kids? Stick with me as I interview homeschooling families across the country to unfold the answers to each of these questions week by week. Welcome, and with us today I have Ade Hoffman from Nature Play All Day. Ade, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me Now. I reached out to you because I saw that you had this amazing program set up and I assume it's generally for like homeschoolers, but you have an education system set up, so why don't you tell me how you got into creating that and what it actually entails? Sure?
Speaker 2:It's a little bit of a long tail, um, but I'll condense it, let's see in. In 2018, my partner and I we moved from Texas to Maine. I had been teaching in the traditional classroom my whole life and really felt I would think I was on maybe year 15 when we moved to Maine of teaching, and I really felt like something was missing. I didn't feel as connected as I knew I should be, or that I remembered being in the classroom and in my work in the teaching field, and so I was looking for something more and looking for something like outdoor based, nature based, and I found a school in Maine. We traveled up here for vacation. I visited the school. I fell head over heels in love with everything that was happening out there, and that's what really kind of sparked the next eight years.
Speaker 2:From there. I applied for a job that they weren't really even looking or hiring for at the time, but kept in touch with the school, ended up getting a job there that spring worked there for just about four years. Spring worked there for just about four years. Covid happened. The world changed and then took off from there and started a homeschool support program with some other families that were out placed from our other school, from COVID, and so that's really where I started to get into the homeschool piece. But, uh, as soon as I moved to maine in 2018, I like to say, I traded fluorescent lighting in for sunshine and I never looked back. And so now I have just received a state license for a child care here in maine and waldo county and, um, we've been open for a couple of months and I'm now just opening up another homeschool piece chapter to that program so that we can reach even more families. So that's the very short version of it.
Speaker 1:So so the program, the school was kind of already established. Is that why you moved to Maine? I?
Speaker 2:moved to Maine for this the first school that I worked at. I've since left there, but I had remembered seeing, you know videos in grad school about outdoor schools in you know Germany and like you know that part of the world, and thinking like, wow, these kids are like using knives and climbing to like the tippity tops of trees, like this is really amazing. And the parents were always. You know, the feedback in those films were that the parents were so proud and confident that their children were able to do those things and that felt so refreshing to me. I thought you know, we're doing it a little bit, a little bit wrong here and I couldn't really let that go. And so when I found a place that was doing that, I latched on and did everything I could to get in the room, so to speak. And yeah, the rest is kind of history. I've never really looked back.
Speaker 1:So okay, and I'm like that parent now that's trying to like have my kid be the one like playing with knives, but it is nerve wracking. I mean, he just sliced his hand last week and he's only six, so it's like at that age where, like he doesn't really understand what being really hurt feels like. So there as the parent.
Speaker 1:I do see the appeal of like here is a video game, sit there and don't hurt yourself, but but that's no way to live. I totally get it and knowing the confidence that my child can take care of himself, especially later on down the line, is going to be amazing and just so much more fulfilling for him. Because I kind of look at the reasons why people are so depressed. Right now I have literally no experience, this is just my own hypothesis. But survival, like, if you just look, which I never looked before because I was always stuck in a classroom or a cubicle, but now that we are out in nature I'm looking around at like the birds and the insects and like every, every species, their main goal is survival, which is food, not die and then procreate and like they don't like an ant, just isn't depressed. You know, I don't think. And what have they done to humans? They've taken away our, our need to find food or and even procreate these days, because they're kind of like shunning away from that. And you know they make it as safe as can possibly be. So we have none of those innate kind of desires anymore, things that keep us feeling like we have purpose, and and that is just what I've kind of seen.
Speaker 1:Now that we are have left the, I left my cubicle and you know my son, we left his preschool that he was in and are now you know a couple years now homeschooling, doing this stuff in nature. It's really crazy that that that I don't know. It's just. I totally get what you're saying, how in other countries there's other ways to do it. We just don't even know about that in America, that there are. There are these other ways. We just think that sitting in a classroom under fluorescent lights is normal. So how long had you been teaching?
Speaker 2:Uh, let's see, I think this is my oh, let's see Maybe my 21st year. Yeah, so I mean I write. I mean I was teaching in a traditional daycare pre-K toddler room, like right out of high school. All through college, you know, went back and forth, back and forth to different, tried different things, but I always ended up back in the classroom and I decided you know this is silly, why am I trying other careers when this is actually where I'm really wanting to be and where I'm most comfortable and where I feel like I'm thriving and connecting? And so I went back, got my master's, but I've been teaching outside for exclusively for eight years, which is crazy to say had you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Maine's cold. You said you moved from Texas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I grew up in New England. I grew up in Connecticut, but you know, life brings you all over the country and I ended up in Texas. That's where I met my partner and he and I moved up here in 2018.
Speaker 2:So I had what's interesting about that is like when I moved to Texas, I thought to myself, oh, this is great, I'll never have to shovel snow again. Like goodbye winter. This is so wonderful. And I really like was excited for that.
Speaker 2:And when I was teaching my very first semester there in Dallas, I was showing pictures of winter and like the seasons and the kids and like they just they didn't understand, they didn't. I put a picture of autumn up on the smart board and one of the children said you know, ms Hoffman, what's wrong with those trees? I was like, oh man, like you haven't seen this before. And then I put a picture up of like deep, deep snow and ice and they had never seen that before. And I thought, oh, oh, wow, like this is so eyeopening, like that's my whole childhood is, you know, building tunnels and caves in the snow plow piles, and I it was in that moment that I thought I don't think that. I think I want to go back. And yeah, I don't know, I really thought I wanted to get away from it. But thinking of a childhood without those things made me really sad, especially as an early childhood educator, and so I now love the seasons much more than I think I ever have.
Speaker 2:I feel more connected to them. Like you were saying, you know spending so much time. It's that survival piece, right, we are in tune with you know the way that the sunrise looks different as we get closer to winter and the colors change, and you know, every morning the grass shines a little bit differently because the dew turns to frost, and you know all of those things are so, so beautiful and I think so many of us are so caught up in, like all the things right, the emails, the texts, the other stuff, um, that we miss all of that. But now that I've been teaching outside, I feel so much more connected just to like nature, right, being being in the change of seasons and it's, it's a really amazing thing yeah, you're so right and I, uh, I grew up in New England as well.
Speaker 1:We're still here. Uh, life did not take me around the country, unfortunately, but that's okay. Um, but I still don't think I grew up having an appreciation for the changing of the seasons, and right now I'm going through a nature study with my son and he's six. So you know we're doing all the fun things. Like you know, it was the apples the first week and then, um, we did the autumn equinox. I literally didn't know what an equinox was. I'm like, well, I know I've heard the name, but I, as 40 years old, still don't know. So it's.
Speaker 1:This has been and now we're doing, um, this week is arachnids. I never knew that insects and spiders were different. Insects and arachnids were different. Spiders are part of arachnids and, um, and uh, there's a whole thing on the changing of the leaves and why they do that. And mushrooms. It's so crazy because, even growing up in this area, I never was taught that stuff in school and it's it's kind of makes you think about. You could talk for probably days on why they don't want that stuff taught in school, but some of the stuff they do teach us it's like huh. Will we ever need to know that why?
Speaker 2:Right, you bring up such a great point about learning with the children and that that was like another one of my shifts when I went from like old school teaching, like the way they taught me to teach in school, to what I do now. And it's you know, I say this to parents who are going to enroll. I said, you know we're learning together. We're like this big learning family and oftentimes, like the children and like surrounding space and place, they teach us way more than I think that we could even conjure up with a lesson. So I think that's a really important piece to recognize is that you know we are learning together with the kids. It's not just like hey, I'm holding this container and I have all the information. It's you know we're on this adventure together. So, yeah, I think it's a really great point that you brought that up, that you are also learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm probably learning more now than I ever did. Tell me what. What does nature play all day look like on a day to day basis for these kids, for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I can kind of walk you through our daily rhythm. We strive to be outside, you know, 90 plus percent of the day all year, barring any extreme weather, so like high, high winds or very, very low temperatures in the mornings, in which case we would just stay inside. But our program site we're on about 18 and a half acres. We probably won't see it all with the kids. So we've got two kind of spaces that we occupy and the first is, um, I say up top, it's where you first pull in, and that's, um, we've got a yurt there. That's our yurt classroom, that's our licensed uh facility through the state of Maine that has a full kitchen um, I say full, but it's like very tiny, um like a full functioning kitchen with a fridge and a stove and a sink, a toilet, like plumbed bathroom, and then the learning spaces inside of there and it's very beautiful and like there's something really powerful about walking into a circular building that really just grounds everybody, children included. It's. It's really amazing to watch. Yeah, I it.
Speaker 2:I've taught in yurts before, like when I first moved here and I was kind of on the fence about doing a yurt when we found this property and then I just thought. You know, cost wise it seemed like the best choice and it was a little nuanced. So anyway, that's our home base. We call that the school yard. Outside of there there's a fire circle and some play areas, some hammocks, some mud kitchen stuff. There's an old rowboat there. That is a really great jumping off point for a lot of imaginative play in the schoolyard.
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Speaker 2:So that's the top part of the program. That's where we do drop off and pick up and do any of the inside time that we would do for, like inclement weather. They settle in and have breakfast, if they have to have that or want to have that in the morning, and then we gather again outside and head down to what we call base camp. That's about an 800 yard hike through some really beautiful forest. It's got a lot of evergreens, but right now it's very orange and red, so there's a lot of maples and a lot of oaks and birches that are turning right now. So it's very lovely. So there's a path that goes all the way down there over this like wet area we call the frog pond that has a little dock on it where kids can just, you know, either go in or out of the water or poke it with sticks or whatever, which is a great exploration point. And then, once you get to base camp that's we actually just replaced we had a tent tent like a canvas wall tent that was our outdoor classroom, um, but we took that down and put up a more permanent structure, um, to help support the snowfall that we have, you know, late into the spring. That wet, heavy snow was not helpful with the tent structure, unfortunately. But you know, we learning. So we have a forest cottage there. We have a geodesic dome that's like a greenhouse that we'll use for growing herbs, maybe potatoes, because we do a lot of cooking over the fire with the kids. But that's where we spend all of our time. That's where we get there around. Kids come at nine, we get there around quarter to ten, so 9 45, and we don't leave until about 1 45. So we're down there all day rain, snow, wind, heat, um. And there's a place for them to get some relief from the weather in that forest cottage, but the most of the time they're going down there's like a slide there, a mud kitchen, hammocks for resting. We also rest and sleep outside in sleeping bags, cold weather sleeping bags and hammocks. There's an outhouse there for toileting, which is like a topic everyone loves to talk about. How do you go outside if you? Or how do you go to the bathroom if you're outside all the time? Like what does that look like? Um, so that was a big addition that you know helps a lot logistically, especially with, with littles that are into like doing a naturopy. Not every child wants to do that, um, and there's also other situations that we have to tend to. So the outhouse has been a great addition, um, but we stay down there pretty much all day and it's really a lot of offerings.
Speaker 2:Our day is very loosely structured. Huge chunks of at least an hour and a half of unstructured exploratory play is happening. We put out offerings for children, so like there might be an activity that can just be, you know, taken on by the child independently. Not a lot of teacher directed stuff. We do circle in the beginning of the day, a morning circle in the wintertime, that's where we serve hot oatmeal to the kids that we cook on the wood stove, but, and then we do an end of the day circle as well in the afternoon before we head up the hill. But all of our circles are optional, um, we don't make the kids come and sit or do any of that. If they want to come, great. If they don't, that's also fine.
Speaker 2:Um, and usually, you know, they exercise their right to decline for a good while and then they all end up coming anyway. So it's nice to give them the choice to, you know, decide what they want to do, and that's about it. I mean, they graze all day on food. We have what we call first and second lunch, where we check in with them and have them, help them check in with their bodies. Are they hungry, are they thirsty? You know what do they need. Are their fingers cold? Are their cheeks chapped? You know what do they need. We check in at first and second lunch and then, of course, throughout the day with other stuff. But it's pretty, it's pretty loose and it's like 100% child led teacher supported.
Speaker 1:That is so cool and all right. So I'm and as you're talking, I'm like, oh, I could do that here. I could do it. But then in some part of me is like, do I want to do that with all these?
Speaker 2:I could just do that with my own kids. I mean, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:But that's a huge start. Yeah, um, having that play uh with other kids too, it's awesome, and I, and, as I'm thinking about it, okay, so I'm in New York.
Speaker 2:We have very strict reporting requirements and I'm not sure what you guys have for homeschoolers in Maine. Do you have to fulfill any there's. We're kind of in this weird in between stage in Maine where there's a lot of programs that are operating, like mine, that are kind of under the radar as far as licensing goes, because they want to serve the homeschool community. Many of the families and this is obviously not like a blanket statement, but a lot of the families are unvaccinated with, like, the regular schedule of vaccines for their kids. And in Maine if you aren't vaccinated with, like you know, measles, mumps, all that stuff, you cannot attend a public private program or school. You have to have that. So a lot of families were same here in New York?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, like there's no religious exemption. There's none of that anymore, and so we're in this weird season with programming that people are doing a lot of under the radar stuff and licensing is kind of getting wind of it. But you can offer a program like mine, which is what I do on Fridays, where families stay on site for the duration. So that program's a little bit shorter, it's only four hours instead of five, but families stay on site all day. And then the homeschooling piece, like where we do lessons like a little bit more focused stuff. I pull that group out and then we go and do that and then come back for more play.
Speaker 2:The only requirement that I am aware of is that there's the 175 days of instruction, which is similar to what you would need for schooling, and then I just write a letter. It could be written by like anybody that has a teaching license, like even a music teacher that you know. The child has attended X number of days, they've executed this, they're meeting their developmental standards and like all as well. So it's pretty loosey goosey, but I think we're in this kind of funny in-between stage after that vaccination thing went into play. So I don't know what that's going to look like long-term, but right now it's a little wonky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in New York, we lost our religious exemption in 2018, 2017, 2018 about, and I think the homeschooling world exploded at that point, and it is funny, there's only five states that don't have a religious exemption, so it's it's kind of crazy, and I know Mississippi just got theirs back, so, um, it is hopeful. I mean, I still think that, um, I'd prefer to learn outside of the classroom, but for the parents that can't, um, it is is nice to not have, uh, that requirement, especially when part of the law says it has to be informed consent.
Speaker 2:You kind of strip that away when you're mandating it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how many days a week do you do this portion for, like the homeschoolers, you just do that one day a week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right now we're just on Fridays, and then I run regular programming Monday through Thursday.
Speaker 1:So who are the kids attending the regular programming?
Speaker 2:Like are they just?
Speaker 1:little ones that aren't enrolled in elementary school yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so mostly three to five-year-olds, and then we're licensed to take children up to age seven, like they can turn seven with us, but if you're already seven I can't enroll you. So it's a mix. You know some people like if you happen to have children who are vaccinated and aren't going to kindergarten, you could still come to regular programming and there's all sorts of you know funky little loopholes about. You know extensions and things like that that people take advantage of. But it is. It's mostly kids that just aren't in school yet or delaying that kindergarten start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was talking to somebody last week and I had heard of it before called they had something called a private membership association, so that's an avenue possibly to look down as well. You look like you're nodding, you're a familiar, but for anyone listening you know something to explore. I know that they don't put the information readily out there. You really have to hunt and dig, but, um, just a way to kind of uh run your business outside of the traditional laws, it sounds like.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, there are different loopholes, for sure, and you have to really kind of find those murky areas in the languaging from the state, and I think it's possible. I really I felt passionately about creating a licensed program as a model for other child cares out there, because so many educators and child care providers think that you know, an outdoor, fully outdoor program isn't possible if you're state licensed, and it's not. That's not true. You know, I wanted to really be an example for our county and for schools in our area that you can kind of like check the boxes as a institution but also live outside of them, and so I felt that was really important to me. But at the same time I really want to serve everyone, because I don't think anyone should be excluded from an opportunity to learn in this setting, and so I'm grateful that we're able to provide that homeschool support program on Fridays.
Speaker 1:Do you think that there's any way to extend this to, like, elementary, middle school, high school at some point?
Speaker 2:Probably not for me, but I think that there's a huge need for that. The program that I co-founded in 2021, they serve up to age 15, I think, and then, like the older kids, we just called them the bigs that group was huge, there was like 16, 18 of them, with two or three teachers, and it was a really beautiful program to see unfold, because so often you know, once you it's like, for some reason, once you hit like, I don't know, eight or nine years old, you're not supposed to play and you're supposed to be very serious about your schoolwork, and I don't understand that at all. I think we all need more play. Even I could use more play in my life, but you know, that middle childhood piece, there's a huge, huge gap there in play. And to see the kids that were enrolled in that particular program, you know they were 13, 14 years old.
Speaker 2:That's probably one of the most awkward stages in all of our lives and they're working through all of these social things, through this really detailed and like intricate, multi-layered play schemas, like in the forest, and it was really very powerful to see that. You know they can still play and they are still super imaginative and that's not something that's, you know, only sacred to three to six year olds. So I think that there's a lot of potential for programs like that to be created and evolve over time, and even in like this field of just like people out there talking about middle childhood, there's not a lot of people doing that. So whenever I get wind of somebody who's doing that, I'm like could you please tell the whole world what you're doing and how you're doing it, because I think it's really there's a huge, huge need out there. I think it goes across the board, all the way through to high school and even college, you know.
Speaker 1:What have you seen? The differences in the children from like the beginning of the you wouldn't call it necessarily a school year, but the beginning of the program to sort of the middle and end, like? What sort of progress have you gotten to witness?
Speaker 2:Oh, there's so much. I think that the magic starts to reveal itself around March for me. So normally we start like the top of our school year is in September. We've started in October in the past.
Speaker 2:But kids are a lot like seeds, right. So they spend a lot of time like in their gear, cozied like seeds would be, like buried in the earth, and they're kind of just like they're doing all the things, going through the rhythm, rhythms and routines and like just being very diligent and their beautiful selves. And then, all of a sudden, what happens is in March it's April really it starts to get hot, or hot, it's like 38 degrees and they start to shed their layers and you start to see that like they're stronger, they're faster. Um, they spent all week, all winter, trying to walk on ice in rain boots and they've developed a really strong core so now they can climb better and more agile. They're just, really just stronger and they just emerge as these really beautifully strong independent thinkers, problem solvers, communicators, and I always see it happen somewhere between March and April. And then, by the time May and June come around, you're like wow, like where did this come from? You're so big and they're almost unrecognizable as they were back in the fall.
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Speaker 2:So I mean I could, I feel like I could talk about this for like 18 hours.
Speaker 2:The improvements and like the growth and development is just improvements and like the growth and development is just it's it's, across the board, just hugely dynamic. But I would say you know their dexterity, their grip, their confidence, their communication, their problem solving, their strength in general and their perseverance. I think is really incredible too to see how that builds over time, especially if you spend, you know, here in Maine winter is, I mean, anywhere from, let's say, november all the way to late March. It could snow, and we've gotten snow in April as well.
Speaker 2:So you spend all of those months in mittens and you're trying to do everything in mittens, like eat your lunch and like carve and do all these things like you're really determined and you know you're not giving up, and just think about, like the dexterity that's built through just trying to do something in mittens for six months. Uh, it's just incredible. So I think that you know the improvements and the growth that happen are, I mean, they're just they're infinite. Um, but in every, every year, it's like that all of a sudden it gets warm enough one day at the end of March and the kids take off their rain pants and like, or their rain jackets and like one of their layers, and they're just like all of a sudden in the tops of trees and you're like, wow, in October you couldn't even reach that first branch, or you couldn't even just hold the branch and hang there, but now you're just going right to the top.
Speaker 1:So that's amazing, especially when it is child led. It's not like you're saying, okay, we're doing this exercise first and then we're doing that. You're actually just letting them flourish on their own. And when you think about the kids that are in a preschool, you know like my son was in just four walls all day. It is amazing. Now, are the parents then typically sending them into the mainstream school from that?
Speaker 2:or they can go to one of your other locations.
Speaker 2:Sometimes they can go right in. Yeah, and what's interesting is that I've heard from lots of different families that they're surprised, like how ready they are. I often tell the story of one of the children that was in my cohort. For two years I had him in pre-K and then half a year in K and then we had COVID. I mean, I was with him all year but we weren't together together. And at one of the parent conferences his mother said to me you know, he's not interested in letters, like he doesn't want to write his name. And I was like you know, he, he will, he's just not ready, like he'll let you know when he's ready. And then the following year he went to like a traditional private school and she checked in with me and she was like he's, he's thriving, he's writing everything down, like he's really interested, he's taking off and reading.
Speaker 2:And I think what is not often talked about is that confidence piece we were talking about a few minutes ago, with the climbing and the perseverance that all translates to like kindergarten readiness, right, like when it gets really, really hard and you know that when you're ready or you're willing to do something, it's going to come so much easier. I think that that shows up when kids go into a regular classroom. From having all these years hopefully, you know, maybe two, even one year in a child-led environment like it builds their confidence. So I've heard nothing but great things. Even some of my most challenging children you know, who need lots of different supports and layers of guidance throughout their day to day. They're they're thriving, they're so happy, they're doing great. They're not behind, you know, they're just, they're right where they need to be and they're really, really happy and confident and I think that's what we like. What else could we ask for? Right?
Speaker 1:That's what we strive for, for sure. Now, for parents that are listening that would want to start something like this in their area or at their home. Do you guys have a model that people can replicate, or would it?
Speaker 2:would your the name go along with it or how would that work? Um, I, you know I don't have like a particular duplicatable model. Um, I do meet with people regularly, you know, through consultations and stuff, to get them kind of get their ducks in a row, get their vision solidified and kind of create next steps together. Um, and as like kind of like a mini mentorship. So I do offer that.
Speaker 2:But what I would say first is just talk to people around you in the community who might want to do that, and it doesn't have to always happen at one place. You know there are tons of nature centers and you know land trusts and preserves all around. It's kind of like when you start looking for something, you start seeing it everywhere and you know those types of places are the same way, you realize you actually have a lot more closer to you than you may think. So even just meeting there, you know, once a week or twice a month with whoever wants to come with you and create a community, I think that that might be a really great place to start so that people can connect.
Speaker 2:I've just realized that. So what people want the most right now and I think this is just coming out of COVID still is people just want authentic, like in-person, you know, one-on-one connection, and I think that these types of groups and homeschooling and co-ops and things like that are really taking flight because of that. And it's not super complicated. It doesn't have to be super complicated, you know, and it doesn't have to be, you know, a money-making program. It can just be a community, which I think is a really great model for kids to see happen as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean cause you, just you. Really. I never knew that there was something different until COVID happened. And then it was like, oh, do we? I never thought to look into vaccines, and now it's. I never thought to look into a different way to learn that it doesn't have to be here. Your ABCs, here are your colors, here are your shapes, you know all on a piece of paper at the board. You know that it can be just out in nature and they do pick up what they're going to pick up when they're cognitively ready, like they're, if they want to know how to read. They're not going to be 30 years old and never learned, like you know. It just doesn't happen that way. It's not because, like, oh, they didn't start at four, so it just never happened. Like, no, it does, it can.
Speaker 2:There is no window to be missed. Really, I don't think. If you're, you know you're building meaningful context through like engagement and interaction. I think you know there is. There is no missed opportunity. There is no real timeline. I think that learning is really just a continuum, and the more we can remind ourselves of that, I think, the better and less stressed so many of us might feel yes because that's probably what a lot of people feel.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know that. I can, you know, make sure that they know everything they need to know by every certain age. And I think that was the biggest realization for me is that there actually is no matrix that says your child has to know this and this and this by this age. So that's something that was set up in our country and you know probably others, but that was based on a model to with tests and that sort of thing. But there is look at other countries where kids are pretty much surviving on their own by like age seven and you know, being able to fish and hunt and stuff like that. So it's like you kind of have to measure what is the point of all this? What are we trying to learn and why? So that's that's a really cool thought process to go forward with. If you're thinking about homeschooling or doing an alternative to the traditional education, Anything else that you want to, let us know about your program or just overall education in general before we let you go.
Speaker 2:Well, I will share this small tip about, you know, facilitating like longer periods of uninterrupted play. I've shared this with people many times and it's been very, very helpful, so it might be helpful for your listeners. I call it the 15 minute rule and if you break up one hour into four 15 minute chunks, it really will kind of illuminate what is happening with the child's like development over the course of an hour. So like if you think of traditional recess, right, it's like maybe 15 or 20 minutes, and usually that looks like absolute chaos. Like by the time the whistle's blown or the bell rings, you know you're like, oh man, like we're just getting started and that's because the children have.
Speaker 2:It takes children that long to find something that's engaging, like to ignite their intrinsic motivation to be like oh, you know what, like these, whatever the sandbox is interesting to me, but this puddle over here that I didn't see until just now, that's actually giving me what I need, like the input that I need. So after 15 minutes they find the thing. And then after another 15 minutes by, you know, if you're in public school, like if you even have recess, you don't even make it there, but after 30 minutes you've then spent enough time to get into this deep engagement and, like you're, the child's brain is firing on all cylinders and collecting like data, like rapid fire, like ooh, this is exciting. You're thinking about textures, you're really, really engaged in making that meaningful context. And then in the next 15 minute chunk, you're at 45 minutes. Like this is golden.
Speaker 2:So even if you can make 45 minutes happen of uninterrupted play, this means like you're not leading the play, you're not directing the play, you're not leading it in any sort of strange way that you think it might have to go. It's just kind of happening. That's when they start like really, I don't know I mean, you have kids, so you might have happened upon this like you walk into a play situation and like they've got like their own language, their own rules, their own currency and you're like this doesn't make any sense. And if that's happening, like you know you're on the right track because they're so deeply, deeply engaged. And then, of course, like 60 minutes is, is and beyond, like beyond 45 minutes, it just gets deeper and deeper. But I like to break down, like at least the first 45 minutes for people, because 15 minutes seems like a ton of time, but it's actually not a lot of time for, you know, a young child to really figure out what they want to engage with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to take place, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I like to just like leave that with people and just be like you know, try if you can, if you can get 25, 30 minutes minutes like you're doing, amazing. But you'll see, and this happens in transitions too. I mean, I volunteer in a kindergarten class at a public school here and that's just it. The first 15 minutes that we're in a new spot it's like just bananas they're everywhere and then you know, literally minute 16 or 17,. They're just starting to notice that like things float in the creek or they travel in the creek and then the whistle's blown and we have to go inside and it's like like you're missing out on all these opportunities. So I think that time is an interesting thing to think about and how to compartmentalize it and combine different chunks. A lot of teachers look for that too. They're like I don't have time, I have to do this, this and this. You know we have to be creative and flexible in our scheduling and look for those chunks to combine Well.
Speaker 1:And that makes a lot of sense too, cause for me, I'm just used to the everything is structured from school and from my work life when I had that. Um. So when I do take the kids outside, it's like, okay, are we going on the trampoline, are we going on the swings? I do take the kids outside, it's like, okay, are we going on the trampoline, Are we going on the swings, are we going on a hike? But you saying that I'm thinking I can just take them to somewhere. There's a huge mountain behind our house, take them to a location and sit and like, let them, even if it's just my son and daughter, like just the two of them, and let them explore, and that can be like the thing that that we do that day. Um, it doesn't have to be this.
Speaker 2:Well, we're going on the trampoline and we're going to read three books you know, which is it's a great, it's a great place to start, for sure, um.
Speaker 2:And you'll see, like, the more often you do that, the faster they settle in Um, and that's how. That's how it, you know, that's another one of the things that I noticed is that over time kids just come in and within like five minutes they just go right back to the work that they were doing yesterday at 1.30. Because they know that that time is they just had the time to just figure it out, and I think it takes time to get there, to get to that kind of flow, state of being out in nature with kids and that free play. But the more we give them the opportunity to experience that freedom and like the permission and I often see kids, like in the beginning of the year, like looking over their shoulder, like can I do that? Is this okay? And I'm like you're good, I'm right here, how does that feel? Or in practicing, not narrating the play, just like, hmm, that's interesting. Or I wonder, you know, not saying much, but just being present, you know, is helpful.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I love that I love that.
Speaker 1:Ade, thank you so much for talking with us today and for what you're doing with this program, and I hope this inspires more of us parents myself included to you know offer these childhoods to our kids. This is so amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the Homeschool how To. If you've enjoyed what you heard and you'd like to contribute to the show, please consider leaving a small tip using the link in my show's description. Or, if you'd rather, please use the link in the description to share this podcast with a friend or on your favorite homeschool group Facebook page. Any effort to help us keep the podcast going is greatly appreciated. Thank you for tuning in and for your love of the next generation.