The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
From odd jobs in Berlin to successful sales expert with Penny Blackmore
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Imagine taking a leap of faith, moving to a new country, and building a successful business with no university degree in hand.
This was the journey of Penny Blackmore, a sales and marketing consultant who transitioned to freelancing in Germany.
Join us as we explore Penny's fascinating journey to Germany and how she established her successful sales and marketing consultancy, Company Studio. From working at a digital product studio to dealing with the intricacies of freelance work in Germany, Penny’s story is a testament to the power of resilience and determination.
Penny’s worked with clients ranging from Twitter to Tetra Pak in locations across Australia, Europe, and the US. She headed up business development at two globally recognised design agencies and has expertise in startups, innovation and design.
Penny now brings this unique expertise to her hyper-specific niche helping her clients to with their sales and marketing. Other things to know? Penny is working on a novel as well as writing an occasional newsletter, And Another Thing, with an accompanying podcast.
She loves writing and has been published in the Guardian and the Huffington Post. Penny competed at the Olympics as a gymnast in 2004, which has taught her infinite lessons about tenacity, motivation, and resilience.
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
Starting or running a business in Germany as a foreigner? Already running an online business in Germany as an expat? Wanting to grow your German-based business? Working as a freelancer in Germany? You'll love my guide with over 30 resources for expat business owners in Germany.
I am talking to Penny Blackmore and she is an Australian who is living in Berlin, and I'm going to start with my standard to mid standard opening question, which is the two minute story of how you ended up in Germany.
Speaker 2:Okay, sure, I think I can do this in two minutes pretty easily. So I'm from Australia and I don't have a university degree, so it was very limited in terms of where I could go and get a job. Germany has actually Berlin has a freelance visa, so that's literally the only reason I came here. Really, yeah, yeah, well, actually, sorry, yeah, I mean. So that was the reason I came here specifically. I'd always wanted to live in Europe. Australia is kind of at the end of the universe in many ways, so I was like I want to be a part of the action, I want to be, you know, in the middle of the universe, and I ended up here. I've been here once for a couple of days. I had no real impression of it, but I was just like you know what I'm going for it.
Speaker 1:That's pretty bold.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:And when was this? 2017. Okay, so it's going on six years here, so not bad. And I didn't know that Germany had a freelance visa.
Speaker 2:Berlin does?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if the rest of Germany does.
Speaker 2:It might be Berlin specific, but yeah, how about you? How did you come to Germany?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a long story, I just opened it. I've been here like 20 years and I came on a tourist visa and then ended up getting a job and it was just for shits and giggles and I'm still married with a girl, so cool, okay. So tell me about. So I'm going to just say, like, I noticed your LinkedIn posts. They're very frank, they're very open, they stand out excellent writing and you have got a business called the company studio. Do I have that right? Or just company studio? No, that, just company studio.
Speaker 2:It's a bit of a. It's a controversial name. I my, yeah, some of my friends were like, oh, I don't know about this name and I'm like I like it. I can't tell you why, I just like it. But yeah, basically, company studio is a small sales and marketing consultancy. We help clients to tidy up their sales offering, feel more confident when they're selling their products or services and get new business and new clients and new customers. Sound job.
Speaker 1:So so you land here you like. Okay, I can go to Germany, I'll go there. How do you? Did you start this business right away? Did you first have? A like a quote, unquote real job. Like what? How did company studio come into being?
Speaker 2:So I, when I moved here, I'd heard that it was like Berlin is so cheap and you're barely going to have to work. And so I had this like I got my freelance visa and I had this really sort of bizarre six months where I was like doing all these odd jobs so it's like writing about me sections for artists. I was. I worked with a friend who runs this insanely successful forestry business and I was just sitting on the floor of warehouses all day like preparing roses and I was doing all these odd jobs because I was just so burnt out from my last role and then eventually I realized that the bureaucracy around tax and health insurance and so on was way too much for my brain. I'm not, I'm not geared that way. So I was like can we swear on this podcast?
Speaker 1:I'm.
Speaker 2:Australian yes, go for it. I was like, fuck it, I'm getting a job. So I just did some Googling, because my last role was as a business development person at a digital product studio. Called us to, and so I did in Australia, I was like, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:I did some Googling and I was like digital product studio Berlin and I found a couple of companies. I emailed them and I was like you should hire me. And then one of them did and that was a really good. I was. I got really lucky there. I had approached them. It's a company called AJ and Smart. They are controversial now but they do. They run Design Sprints and they do Design Sprints training. So I kind of got lucky in that they have an enormously. They have a great profile, they do a lot of social media content. They're very public in sort of educating their community and audience. So that meant that I kind of was on videos and in pictures and so on. So that when I left that company I didn't have to do anything. People just emailed me and they were like, oh my gosh, you used to work at AJ and Smart. Like can you come and work with us on some freelance stuff? So that was, it was fortuitous, let's put it that way?
Speaker 1:And what exactly remind me again digital product. Can you say that again?
Speaker 2:So digital product studios are basically like agencies that create mobile apps and web apps for usually enterprise clients, so it's usually a group of designers and developers and product managers and agile coaches and so on, and they come together to create various digital products for their clients.
Speaker 1:So they call those digital products, that's an agency Like I think, if digital products is like ebooks or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that is one digital product. Yeah, so digital product is basically anything that is. So. This laptop is a physical piece of hardware, whereas a digital product usually involves software. So, yeah, anything you write code for and put together design wise.
Speaker 1:Okay, or like service design. I've also heard that. Yes, okay, but this is the digital product agency and what? And you were doing exactly what there.
Speaker 2:I was doing business development, so basically finding new clients and helping to sign them for the company.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you made a name for yourself there and then decided I'm going to go out on my own and people were just they knew you and that was that, yeah yeah, I don't want to exaggerate, it's not like I was had people bashing down the door, but pretty much within a week I had some.
Speaker 2:You know, when you change your status on LinkedIn to you know open to work or I don't think they had that back then. But I said, you know, I've gone freelance and people started getting in touch, which was awesome. But also it's really weird because there is, I think, if you're a designer or a developer or an artist, like there are different sort of freelance roles where there's a bit of a blueprint for how you do that job. Whereas in my transition into freelance sales and marketing consulting I was like what do I do here? Because what you can do is just sit with the client and tell them how to do things and take their money.
Speaker 2:That's kind of like the easiest thing to do is just the consulting where you're just talking and solving problems for them. But the problem is that doesn't that often doesn't really work super nicely. What works is when you teach them how to do things themselves instead of just asking me for the answers the whole time. So it took I will say like it took a couple of years for me to kind of get what my process was down and get a bit of structure around my work, which is a process, but it was. It's really rewarding, and so that's when I kind of decided to formalize it in a company context, when I was like I'm doing it, I'm going to make this a thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, help me. So when I look at your work it's like sales and positioning. So would you, would you put what you do under the umbrella of marketing? Yeah, sure, Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so we do a little bit of marketing in terms of, basically, I guess, lead generation for our clients and also, I mean all the brand awareness stuff that needs to happen in order for clients to get in touch with my clients Sorry, that's going to be the word client a lot in this conversation.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the marketing is everything that happens before you basically start like identify a challenge. So once a potential client gets in touch with my clients, they, once they've sort of said, okay, there is a project that we need help with or there's a challenge that we're not sure how to approach, that's when the sales process starts Okay, and you can do your pitching and your proposal and all your discovery calls and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, and let me back up for a second. So when you hung out your shingle and people started getting in contact with you, was that? Were there any like conflicts, like because were they clients from the agency that you were at and now they were coming directly to you? Was that weird? Did you have like a note, non-compete or anything like that?
Speaker 2:So first, of all, I didn't have a non-compete, which is good. But secondly, the clients that I was helping, yeah, they were competitors of my prior agency. So I mean, non-compete are really hard to enforce anyway. But yeah, luckily I just didn't have one and I guess it's only a conflict if I'm still getting paid by the old company.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay, and you weren't stealing their client. Their competitors just knew who they were.
Speaker 2:So it was yeah, yeah exactly, Exactly and also like all of the IP, that I had to do my part of my job at my at AJM Smart, like that was my stuff that I developed myself because I was the only person doing sales there. So it wasn't like I was working with a big team and we came up with all these solutions and then I stole them. It was more like I was doing my job and then I just started doing my job for other people.
Speaker 1:Okay got it, got it. And I? Well, let me ask do you, do you work primarily in English?
Speaker 2:Yes, I work all in English, Okay and that has never been a problem.
Speaker 2:Surprisingly, no, I have. I have clients that have been like yep, do everything that you do for us, and then we'll pay a translator to switch it all over. So, surprisingly, it hasn't been much of an obstacle. I think I might be completely out of the loop here, but I haven't met a whole bunch of other people that do what I do. It's not that I have no competition, it's just that I actually, if someone said, oh well, you know, can you recommend someone else, I genuinely wouldn't know who to call, because I I don't come across people that do what I do very often, and I think my clients don't have much of a choice.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great Dominate a niche. Dominating. That's right. Yeah, yeah, Okay. And so all the businesses that you do work for are German clients You're not like working remotely for, or are they European wide?
Speaker 2:or what. I'll work with anyone. So at the moment I've got one client in Canada to here in Germany, one in Romania. Last year I was working with someone in Portugal. I've worked with people in the.
Speaker 1:US, so anywhere, yeah, and what? What type of clients are they?
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, typically they're service-based businesses, so agencies, consultants I do sometimes work with startups, but not very often. But also I've now I'm doing sales for freelancers training I'm running training sessions for freelancers. It's like a four-week program.
Speaker 2:And coming up in November. I'm running a sales for agencies module as well. So my clients like, although I typically work in the agency space, I've really wanted to help freelancers with their sales and marketing offering and their skills and get them really excited about the sales process. So that's something I started this year and I'm definitely going to be continuing that. I mean it's been really, really rewarding actually working with the small price, I guess.
Speaker 1:Out of total self-interest. Let's talk about that a little more. I really kind of had an epiphany, maybe about a year ago, about the really distinct difference between sales and marketing and that they are not the same thing, and what is some of the stuff you focus on when you talk about sales for freelancers?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. So in the training program it's a four-week program. So we start off by talking about positioning and differentiation and describing your service offering, so that it's quite kind of compelling but it also makes sense and that you're in a niche or a niche, as you say, but also not too, not restricting yourself to a very limited client base. Then we talk about the sales process and what was really interesting about their training was I was self-conscious about that module. I was like, oh, who's going to care about the sales process? But it turned out that that was got some of the best feedback because really strictly, like a great sales process can really help you build a lot of trust with your client and get them really excited about working with you. It also speeds up the lead times so basically you can close deals more quickly. You can avoid getting ghosted when you I am sure we've all been there where you write the proposal, you put all this effort into it and then you send it off and then you hear back. It helps you avoid that. It helps you to get in touch with decision makers. It helps you to set the right pricing. So really, the sales processes Secretly extremely exciting, even though it sounds boring. So we do the sales process. Then we talk about your sales deck and your proposal deck, what those looks like, what should be included, what to do, what not to do, and then one, the final module, which we actually do.
Speaker 2:At the start I should have said it. The other way round is generating leads, like finding new business. So we try and cover everything, and one of the things that I always tell my trainees is we have been sort of fed this narrative that if you're a self employed person or a freelance, so you need to get out there on Instagram, post videos every day and reach thousands of people and da, da, da, da, and it's like no, actually, at the end of the day, you're only one person. Sometimes you might only need one client for six months. That's my maybe. That's all you need, yeah, so your conversations need to be much more focused, directed, and your network has to be super strong, but it doesn't have to be massive. You can just have five key people that will refer you again and again. So it's kind of my goal for the sales for freelance course is like I want to demystify sales and I don't want people to think, oh, it's so embarrassing, it's so sleazy. You don't have to lie when you're a salesperson. You just talk to people and listen.
Speaker 1:So I'm hoping to make it fun as well. Yeah, I mean, they're talking to people. That was part of that epiphany. There's this idea you make courses and then you get passive income and you build an audience and all this. I was like, oh no, then your job is just becoming an online marketer and if you have like five to ten high ticket clients that you have a really good relationship with, you don't need to be amassing these followings, which is, to me, personally, a totally joyless exercise. The people that you are targeting in your freelance sales are the freelancers. Like selling into bigger companies, smes, b2c, b2b, like what's the profile?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a huge variety. So in the last cohort we had designers, we had developers, we had animators, we had workshop facilitators, community managers so really it can be anyone. I tried to collect a group of non-competing people for the first cohort and that worked out. I'm not sure if I can promise that moving forward, but yeah, they're selling to every different type of business, typically enterprise, though if they're customer based, okay.
Speaker 1:In your view? This is like a question I wrestle with a lot. Do you think somebody once told me I said like forget B2C. You're just not going to find people with enough money. You should always just do B2B. Do you think that's true or what's your view on that?
Speaker 2:It's a great question and you're speaking as we're freelancers or self-employed people and we shouldn't worry about B2C, I mean. So this is actually something that I talk to a lot of people about it. A lot of my clients come to me and they say okay, we want to create a course or something like that and we want to sell to individuals. I think the first step is that you need to create a really strong brand and usually the way you do that is by having a big, healthy, robust portfolio of work. So, first of all, my top level advice go B2B first. Get the good corporate money, get paid properly for jobs, get the portfolio together and then, also get an understanding of, like, how this business landscape works.
Speaker 2:And then, once you've built a brand for example, a very good friend, her name is Brittany Bowring she has sort of a strong brand and a kind of a loyal following. I think she's got a certain amount of numbers followers on Instagram. So she was doing corporate work for years and then she got to a point where she was like, yeah, I'm going to put together a course and I'm going to sell B2C and she could do that because of that sort of initial work that she put in. So the B2C stuff only works at scale, right, Like if you get three individuals. Yeah, and this is another reason that I started my sales for freelancers course, because I knew they couldn't afford me one-on-one. So I was like, how do I group them together and make it work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, one of the things like in my line of work that people try to do to like have scaled offers, like templates. I can't stand doing that, but I do like the idea of a live cohort and also having like a product ladder and a lower price point where you say like, okay, here's a template, we'll do it together. It's kind of done with you service. How do you balance the work that you're doing for larger clients with, like a cohort training?
Speaker 2:Great question. This actually brings me to one of my absolute favorite metaphors, or yet I think it's a metaphor or an analogy, whatever. This is something that I talk to all of my clients about all the time. I think in service-based businesses, you need to have three parts of your offering the cupcake, the birthday cake and the wedding cake. The cupcake I'm obsessed with the cake factor in this metaphor, but the cupcake is something that you can purchase without much thought or planning. It's something that you can do individually. Just pick it up, try it out. It's no good, it's not a big deal. Just throw the rest away or eat it and you'll regret.
Speaker 2:The birthday cake is a little bit more planning. It comes around once a year, so you know it might happen again in the future. You're ordering the birthday cake. Maybe you're also having a friend bring the birthday cake. The birthday cake is less of an investment, but it's all about you. It's all about, you know, finding something that works for you on one occasion. But the wedding cake, that's your big kahuna. It's supposed to be once in a lifetime. Obviously that's not always the case, but a wedding cake is something that you're probably planning with someone else, so there are other stakeholders. You're engaging a third party, whereas with the birthday cake, someone might be making that for you, you might make it yourself at home. So it's kind of a lower stakes version.
Speaker 1:Anyway.
Speaker 2:I'll stop with the cake metaphor. My birthday cake, my cupcake, is my training, so people can kind of try that out. It's affordable. And then the birthday cake for me is I do coaching work. So I do some one-on-one coaching with a couple of CEOs here in Germany, and then my wedding cake is my project work. So basically the way that I work this out is I try I've often tried to run two projects at once. That's not something I should ever do. I don't know why I tried to do that, but yeah. So I'm usually running one project at a time. I've got my coaching clients which are also running simultaneously. We just catch up once a week and then, when I have a little bit of downtime, I'll schedule a cohort of training. So for example.
Speaker 2:November. I'm like I don't really want to work that month very much, but it would be a nice way to sort of close out the year. So I mean the good thing about being with a cohort is that you can? Yeah, exactly, you can obviously kind of make things work how it be you want.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I hope that answers the question. It totally answers the question. My follow-up question that becomes I mean, my guess is that a lot of your work is, like you know, network and relationship-based. Like your business comes to you, but in terms of positioning and marketing. So if you're selling cupcakes and wedding cakes, like how do you speak to the person that's buying the wedding cake versus the person that's buying? Like, are you muddying your messages? Should you only say like I'm targeting these premium clients and look at these wedding cakes, and then people will say, oh, but you sell cupcakes too. I mean, I have control, but how do you?
Speaker 2:position yourself. I mean, I position myself as a sales expert. I hate, you know, it's weird calling yourself an expert, but that's how I try and position myself. Once the interest comes into my inbox then I can decide how I'm going to channel that interest into an offering. So obviously, if someone gets in touch and they're like hi, I'm a designer, I'm, you know, 30 years old, I've been freelancing for a couple of years and I need help with sales, then I'm like cool, you can join my next cohort. Typically, my wedding cake, my project clients come from referrals, so they really very much they know what to expect. They've usually been introduced by someone I've worked with before and so I don't really have to do a lot of positioning in that sort of context.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, actually, what you said is really interesting. Like our business, I think all service-based businesses are relationship businesses. It's very rare that people will just find someone on the internet and, you know, get in touch with them and send money over. And I think my strategy when it comes to positioning and brand awareness is just keep the top of mind all the time. I want everyone to have me at the top of their mind as the sales chick I've been called the sales chick before or the BD girl or whatever, and so that just means like sharing what I know on the internet, usually on LinkedIn, doing podcasts and so on when I have a chance, doing conferences and so on. But yeah, there's really not that much in terms of. Yeah, I don't stress too much about positioning. I think it's just as long as the through line of sales kind of comes through and people typically know what to get in touch with me for.
Speaker 1:Would you say that's because you've built a really strong brand for yourself, so you don't need to worry so much about positioning?
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I've been posting on LinkedIn for like I mean close to five years really consistently and like, yeah, but I actually feel bad. I haven't posted anything this week. But you know, sometimes you can take weeks off, but I've definitely been working to. I mean, another part of building a strong brand is just making sure your customers and your clients are really, really happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they're happy to talk about you and recommend you and so on. So yeah, I've tried.
Speaker 1:So I'm curious what conferences do you go to?
Speaker 2:So last year I went to a conference called Design FAO and it's a small design conference and I did a talk there. The guy who runs that, his name, is Rui, and he used to listen to my podcast with Brittany, so he was like, oh, you guys have to come, and Brittany did a talk on workshops. I did a talk on sales. Have I done any conferences this year? I don't think so. I'm doing a talk next week for a company called Gong, which is a revenue AI platform. Yeah, I just, whatever comes my way, I'll happily do it. I'm trying to think if I've done anything this year. I can't think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, it's okay. I'm always kind of curious. I feel like maybe I'm just don't see them, but I feel like there's less of a big.
Speaker 1:I mean there's a conference culture here for like electronics and cars and stuff but I sort of feel, like I'm always looking over to the States to like whatever convert kit, you know whatever they call their conference, just like there's so much stuff going on over there and I sort of feel like I'm don't see there's. There's some sifted in the UK or there's things in the UK, but I feel like in continental Europe there's not a ton of stuff going on. Yeah, I mean we just had bits and pretzels, but it's all kind of start up.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would almost never go to a conference as an attendee just because I don't. I am really uncomfortable networking in that kind of context. I'm much more of a one on one networker and I think I used to think, oh, I have to learn a couple of those icebreaker questions and walk up to people and say, hi, I'm Kenny Blackmore, this is my elevator bitch. And then I realized, actually, you know, again, we all only need one or two clients.
Speaker 2:And so you're much better off taking that time and taking that money and taking one of your wonderful client contacts out for a lunch or a coffee or whatever it might be and really just sit down with your literal I mean like.
Speaker 2:One thing that I think people forget to do is maybe you've already worked with someone. Let's say I worked with Daniel. He owns an agency and I worked with him three years ago and I did such a good job that he doesn't need my help anymore. People think, oh damn well, that's it. I never need to speak to Daniel again. But no, you need to go and have coffee with Daniel because Daniel is literally your customer and you need to be always on top of what your customer needs. So he might be, you know, talking about challenges he's having in his business and with stuff or with revenue or whatever it might be, and that's like a customer interview for you. You can get that sort of insight into his world and his decision making and that will only help you with all of your other client interactions if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That makes total sense. What if your clients are not in the same location you are?
Speaker 2:I mean one of my favorite little networking network. What's the word nurturing my network kind of technique is I basically like I have a couple of people that are not in Berlin and I like to keep in touch with them. So basically just any time I read something like an article or a book, or listen to a podcast or whatever it might be, I drop them a little WhatsApp message and I say, hey, sort of you, have you read this? Have seen, you know, just WhatsApp is fine, just, you know, just getting in touch, keeping them in touch sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, One of the happy discoveries or developments of the last year, I have to say. When I started this, I was really wary of having a client based business. I worked at a big agency for 10 years. I did a lot of big you know German brands and everything just got so convoluted and stakeholders and it was not satisfying work in the end. And when you have the right clients, it is energizing. It is not innervating, and I have just had a great summer with so many wonderful clients where I feel excited and, like I said, energized after our session together, not drained and so and I like so many of them, you know, and so I it's.
Speaker 1:That was yeah, that was kind of what I said earlier about the sales like you don't need to be blasting on Instagram all the time, it's just like keeping in touch and it doesn't have to be like do you need anything? But that's a, that's a good tip. I have a newsletter for my clients where I just share stuff. That's like going on that I think might be interested. They're all. I'm not in the same industry, so that could be a little tricky, but I just finished a third website I did for a client. She's in Berlin. She's my first client, actually, and I just adore her and it's like it just built itself and she's kind of pivoting what she does and she's like I think I have to do LinkedIn marketing and she really doesn't want to. So I'm just excited to say listen to this podcast, Do this, Because I love LinkedIn marketing. So, yes, that is sales and I don't know what she's going to need a fourth website, but I feel like it's just cultivating and nurturing and your relationships and valuing them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100% and just being a human, I do think this is just a personal preference for me. I typically don't check in with former clients and clients over email. I send them a message on WhatsApp. What's that? Everybody yeah, I'm always like. Everybody gets enough emails. Nobody wants to write back to another email, so I'm always just checking in with a very quick little message, no subject line, nothing. I'm just like hey, torsten, what's up, how's things?
Speaker 2:And he'll be, like, ah, I'm going to give you a call tomorrow and I'm like, ok, great, and then we chat. And I think also the nature of my role I'm always working with the owners of the business. It's a very personal thing, like this is their brand, it's their story and I'm helping them to sort of bring it to life and get they get really excited about the work we do together. So it's a bit more of a personal bond than a super professional bond, if that makes sense, because we're really getting into the nitty gritty of these vulnerable parts of their business.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think there is a generational difference. So, you did. You put you had this great post about, was it? You didn't know anybody over 40?.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, let's have a conversation. That is a really interesting point, Because if somebody who's like well over 40, for me it still feels like intrusive to what's up somebody, you make a totally excellent point and a lot of my clients tend to be, if not my age, like kind of in my generational cohort. But I think there are differences in communication. But yes, email is like a more business.
Speaker 1:And I always in my when I launch, I keep a. Usually it's WhatsApp, sometimes it's Slack, but we keep a channel open just for quick communication. So I could do that, but I just feel like that would be so, even if we have close relationships. But that is something to chew on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm with you because there's some things like I'm. I think you and I might be the same generation.
Speaker 1:I'm X.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I'm OK, you're millennial.
Speaker 1:I'm X, I was born in OK, wow, you look great.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Never to guess.
Speaker 2:But I will say, like I have some younger people in my network and they message me on Instagram for business stuff. I'm just like what? I find it so annoying and so I'm professional, but, of course, again, different generations. So I think with the WhatsApp thing, my advice would be try and get a little bit of the conversation going before you end the engagement. So maybe you're sending you know a little message a couple of weeks before the end and saying, hey, what's your address? I need to send you, you know, an end of engagement gift or what are you doing for Christmas or something, so that it's not like, out of the blue, you're getting a WhatsApp message from someone who's been doing work for you, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah that does. Can I say something about LinkedIn? Yes, please do your friend. I understand that she hates LinkedIn. I know that it can be a really bizarre place where people are kind of just self-promoting, and my LinkedIn pet peeve is when people sort of recycle a really generic idea and I've left it with an incredible act of virginality. I'm like this is literally old news.
Speaker 1:LinkedIn is 100%.
Speaker 2:It's definitely cringe in many ways, but you just have to. First of all, you have to go through your feed and just mute.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Because you know life is too short to hate. Follow and your blood pressure will thank you. But then also, linkedin is the only place on the internet where you can talk if you're in a service-based business, where you can talk directly to your customers and clients.
Speaker 2:They're there. It's free. It's the best opportunity, so I would highly. You know I'm a big advocate for LinkedIn. I don't know where I'd be without it personally, and I just think it's such a great tool. So if people are feeling a little bit hesitant about it, I would really encourage them to do a bit of research, check out the different ways that you can approach it and give it a try.
Speaker 1:I think people just think it's. I love LinkedIn. I don't find it stuffy at all. I mean it can be said. I don't find it like I don't hate follow. In fact it was one of the few platforms that my blood pressure doesn't accelerate I mean Instagram or whatever. But I felt I at first I avoided it because it was like my old corporate network and I was like oh kind of embarrassing, like doing my own thing now. But then I started getting like a couple of cold leads and then I realized I liked it because there's no pretense. We're all doing business here, like that's not. Like you know, here's my cat and here's my new thing and the you know again, instagram, all those things are fine and all channels have their purposes. But I just we're all here doing business and yeah, and I do appreciate that you can like. You say you can find exactly who you want to talk to and I do curate my feed as well, so I like who's in there. But I enjoyed a lot.
Speaker 1:But I also find it's not that, and maybe I'm following the right people, but there is like not like controversy, like Twitter. I was like I just I can't do it. I can't do it.
Speaker 2:I'll always go for something I like to show up for Twitter.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people think it's like stuffy and corporate, which that is there too, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, A couple of my friends over the last few months. He said, oh, I really want to get into LinkedIn, but it feels like it's everyone just talking about the latest promotion they have for.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I'm like, yeah, I get that, but for some reason, because I'm self employed and because I have no interest in moving up any kind of corporate ladder or anything like that like those, those posts don't trigger my envy at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:But it's meaningless to me, so I don't even notice them. Yeah, I think. I think there's some people doing some really great stuff on LinkedIn, so Okay.
Speaker 1:Cool, so I guess I would just look at my questions and I think I've got them all. If you had to go back in time and like give yourself some advice when you were taking pictures of roses on the warehouse floor, who would it be?
Speaker 2:Um, so I think With regards to my business. There's an old adage, which is you have to spend money to make money. We've all heard that one. I don't think I really know what that meant. So if I could go back in time, I'd be like Penny. Finance is not boring, you need to learn it. I tell you what is boring lying awake at night not knowing how you're going to pay your next tax prepayment, or worrying about how you're going to do this, or not being able to go on holiday. That's boring, that sucks. So I was very sort of like I'm a creative person and I can't my mind, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm number blind and I thought it was very adorable and funny. But no, it is not funny. And I would love to go back in time and just say, okay, here's what I'm allowed to spend on stuff, here's what I'm allowed to spend on tools, here's what I'm allowed to spend on this and that, and instead of just, yeah, I've made some mistake purchases let's put it that way I've spent money in a way that probably you know it was a case of, like I had to learn the lesson the hardest possible way, which is, you know, I can live with this, I'm in a good position, so it's fine. But like, yeah, that would be my advice to my younger self, but also anyone that wants to pursue not only health employment, but like starting a company, anything. Just get it out of the way. Learn about finance, and it's very liberating actually. Once you're like okay, I know exactly, that's my tax money, this is this, that's that. It's a weight off your shoulders, all the decision making is gone. It's just yeah, that's great to do, that's great advice.
Speaker 1:No, this is what I love about being working for myself, because you really do learn a lot and, like this last year, you know a spreadsheet can be a revelation. You know about like oh, I can sell 25 of these or three of these.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think that's fantastic advice. Well, thanks again for coming on, penny, and it was really meeting you and talking to you.
Speaker 2:Wonderful to meet you too. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I really had a good time Great.