The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
Growing up in Ukraine to Finding a Passion Filled Side-Hustle in Munich
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Tetyana Pirker came from Ukraine to Munich in 2002. She studied psychology in the university of Munich and afterwards she started a career at Accenture as IT SAP consultant.
After many years SAP consulting he looked for a ‘soul business’. After the birth of her first child in 2017 she discovered her passion; photography.
Tetyana works for both business customers but also she loves weddings. She has 2 kids, lives in the north of Munich and still works part time in the consulting while she is developing her photography business.
In this episode Tetyana and I discussed:
🇺🇦 Her experience migrating from Ukraine to Munich as a 19 year old
❤️ Even though she landed a good job at a consulting firm, she was missing work she was passionate about
📷 Turning her passion; photography into a side hustle
🤝 How she got permission from her full-time job to launch her photography business
🤓 How much there is to learn when launching a business (Taxes! SEO, Building a website!)
🎨 Balancing managing your business with also being a creative
🗺️ How Google Maps has been helpful for getting the word out about her business
🚀 Why it’s important to just start and not worry about everything being perfect
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
Starting or running a business in Germany as a foreigner? Already running an online business in Germany as an expat? Wanting to grow your German-based business? Working as a freelancer in Germany? You'll love my guide with over 30 resources for expat business owners in Germany.
Hi, I'm Eleanor Meyerhofer, a native Californian designer and digital strategist. In October of 1999, a few years after graduating from design school, I flew from San Francisco to Munich with a fistful of Deutschmarks, a dial-up connection and an extremely vague plan. Twenty-plus years later, after a 10-year stint at a global agency freelancing and launching two online businesses, I'm still here. Now I'm talking to other expat business owners to share knowledge, stories and inspiration for other non-Germans running businesses in Germany. Okay, hey, everybody, a quick bunch of housekeeping before we get into today's episode.
Speaker 1:My husband's bicycle is broke, so I have the dog. So you might hear some barking in the background and a couple of unplanned things, but I'm just going to go with my normal modus operandi which is done is better than perfect and there's nothing to it but to do it. So today I am here with Tatiana Perker. She is a wedding photographer based in Munich, and I believe we got in contact through the Women Entrepreneurs in Munich Facebook group, correct? And so, tatjana, I'm going to start with the question I ask everybody on this podcast, which is can you give me the two minute story of how you ended up in Germany?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I wish I would have such a short version, but I will try my best. So, hello everyone. Great to be here on the podcast, very happy to meet you. Great thing which you are doing About how I ended up in Germany.
Speaker 2:So it was actually 22 years ago so maybe I'm not a classical expert, because I was 19 back there and my parents decided to immigrate from ukraine. From that, from the situation we have in terms of, you know, economy and everything, they were clearly, you know, refugees, but we were not going away from the war or something. We just thought it's a good chance. There there was a program which, would you know, invite us to Germany due to our Jewish heritage, and they decided they were over 50, they decided to move. So it's really a huge respect to them.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm now 41. Actually, I would love to emigrate to Australia, for example, in 10 years, but let's see, so they did it and as I was 19, I was I started to study psychology in Ukraine, but it was basically cancelled or I stopped it and I moved to Germany. I learned German, I immediately came to Munich, 22 years ago, basically. So being here since then, yeah, and, and this is basically. This is the story, of course, with great support of having my family with me and, yeah, now I think they already older, my parents and I'm helping them more these days but it was great decision back then. I think it's the most most impact decision in my life which they took.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so. There's, yeah interesting because you you rightly say you're not like a typical expat. You didn't come as an adult, but you were also not a child and you weren't. You also weren't born here to immigrant parents, so when you came here, could you speak German.
Speaker 2:I could speak German thanks to preparation of a very old lady back in Ukraine who could barely speak German, as I understood later on. But she was a great help. You know she was classical school teacher who never been abroad a typical thing for USSR people but she knew some kind of book German and it was enough basically to help my family in the first days in the country, because I was basically then translator for everything, because I went to her like maybe half a year before we moved. It was very helpful. So seeing a lot of people also who I longtime in Germany without speaking German totally okay, I love English. I would love to rather speak English all my life instead of German, I must confess. But language, of course it's a, it's a great, it's a great asset to to accommodate in the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, lifelong, lifelong journey.
Speaker 2:I know, I know language is not everyone's thing. It's really like that for some people. It's so easy in young age like looking at my children, they would not speak Russian to me, even though I try, and of course there are some people. It's very difficult to learn a new language.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. My German is fine. It's actually gotten worse because we speak English so much at home. It's actually gotten worse because we speak English so much at home, and I think I sometimes think it's. There is a weird challenge if you're a native English speaker, because so many people speak English. Yeah, totally, you can just be lazy and get away with it so much. But, now I'm trying.
Speaker 2:My child was in an alternative initiative and it was bilingual, so everything was English for so long, but now she's in school and I'm trying to like be more intentional about bringing more German into my day. But anyway, and for you also, we are to to watch, you know, great American movies or English movies in German. You also wouldn't do that and because I love watching movies in English, I would never switch to German. So you have, you are. You have really challenged.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no well, I've tried my, my, my new trick is listening to podcasts in German, and what always really helped me. For anybody who's struggling with German, I read I haven't done this in a while, but I'm going to start again young adult fiction in German, so, like I read the entire Twilight series and Hunger Games, that's a comfortable reading level for me it just gets my brain back into German and they're easy to read.
Speaker 1:But okay, that's your little tip for the day. Everybody is listening, Okay, so on that note. So you have, let's talk about your business. So you've got a photography business.
Speaker 2:Tell us about how you started that business and what you do actually, as I, as I already said, I studied psychology in back in Ukraine and then I, I started, I, I was keep studying, basically in Munich, I, I, I completed it at in Munich University and afterwards I didn't know what is exactly is my passion, what should I do? I tried several things and still I must confess I am working 20 hours, as you know, employed at the company and doing IT consulting as someone who is employed at the company. But five years ago I discovered photography and it was really love at first sight. I completely immediately understood it's my thing, because you don't feel time passing by, you are like, if you're doing that, everything, nothing else matters. Like you, you could do that, the world would fall apart, you would still be shooting your wedding and, yeah, five years ago I basically-preneur, I think they call it. So, on one hand side, I'm still employed in the company for nine years and I don't feel like quitting it. But since five years, my photography business is growing and I think it's a great. Probably it's a breach. One day I think I will completely go into photography, but as long as I have little kids and as long as we you know, we had Corona time.
Speaker 2:We have a very changing business environment at the moment, with all the online marketing and everything, and I feel like it's a good transition. Some people would say, no, jump in the cold water, do it, otherwise it always will be just a nebun job, just a side job, but I think it should fit to your personality I'm for sure not the most risky and adventurous personality, so that's why I took this. I took this chance to still be doing what I was doing, which is which also satisfies some sides of my. You know requirements, analytical thinking and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But growing own business, it's so interesting, but each day I'm shocked how much you have to learn each day to just keep swimming. Like you learn about taxes, you learn about how to build your web page a very good topic, right, huge topic you learn about. Now I'm learning about seo and especially meta business manager ads. So online marketing, and it's never like oh, it's running, I'm done. It's never like that. And on the other hand side you have to be creative, you have to look for customers, you have to be a networker. I mean, how crazy is that? As the employee, you just have to do one thing and the rest the company is doing for you.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. I know exactly what you mean and I'm full transparency. I'm struggling with this with myself right now. I feel like I have 47 different Baustelle right now because I'm switching CRMs, like my automation tool, and it's really a mess going from one to another. I have a Steuerberater but I was looking at the apps, but now I think I'm just going to keep paying the Steuerberater because online businesses so complicated with all the stripe and PayPal, and there's no tool that really understands that for German, texas.
Speaker 1:I could go on all day about that I like marketing and the Akiza, but it's like you have to do the thing you do, like design or photography, plus run your business everything else a friend of mine. He's German, but he has several startups. His mother's American, but he grew up here. He once said something to me and I think about it every day. He says Germany wants you to be an employee. Oh yeah. And it's like there are days where I think it would just be easier to go get a job. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:You know, I have a coach in photography who already helped me throughout all these years. Especially if it's about photography like before I was photographing a huge wedding I need some preparation. We needed some preparation with him. I'm also photographing sometimes you know, employees of Siemens or Allianz, which is a good money income also, and I don't have any kind of photography, but my passion is really weddings. And but he told, actually even he who is for me someone who reached so much, he has also his online academy even he, sometimes in some struggling times he says I think I will just leave it all and go and be somewhere a team lighter. I will just apply for something, at least for a year.
Speaker 1:I need a break yeah, it's good to know everybody has this feeling yeah, germany wants you to be, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:I don't have experience from other countries. How is that? Of course, but yeah, I can imagine. Especially huge topic datenschutz huge topic. So data protection, huge topic. Texas yeah, it's a respect to all everyone who is still growing their business and even higher people, and even only now I understand how, how challenging that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, but let me, let me ask you some. You brought up a couple of things. First the side hustle part of it. I just out of curiosity how did you? Okay, weddings you can do on the week. They're usually on the weekends, so that's why that works. But did you have to get permission from your company, or? Oh yes?
Speaker 2:yes, oh yes, permissions are everywhere. Yeah, I should. I. I got an official permission to have this side job and they checked that it doesn't affect my, my, my other job as a t consultant, and they completely allowed it. I think it's okay as long as, uh, the hours in photography are not exceeding the hours in the other job.
Speaker 2:But don't ask okay so and yeah, yeah, it's, it's completely okay. And they even supported I have a great company. They, as I said, guys, linkedin is not made to be a side-opener. You just can be one. You cannot do on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:I'm a 50% this and 50% that Ah, interesting, no, you cannot, but they should introduce it. It's like in the HR world, because I'm working in SAP HR in my other job, they call it. Yeah, you can have as many assignments as you can. Also, in a company, you can have global assignment and local assignment. So I think we need to become, as a the world of, of workers and of professionals. They need to see that the person is not one or zero person can be very you know a rainbow of things which you do, but you cannot. You cannot. But they supported me and they said oh, tatiana, go ahead and make a post, that you are doing a side job, basically as a photographer, and mentioned that we as a company are not against it and it's really something good for them and good for me, so it's great, okay.
Speaker 1:So, as a photographer, don't you? I would guess that your main channel would be Instagram, especially for weddings.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely Absolutely Instagram, but it's very interesting topic I think you would love to, would love to also elaborate on it. There are two types of approaches. One very strong one is website and SEO right and Google Ads, and the other one is Instagram, meta ads, instagram and Facebook right. It's interesting. So I think you can compare it. I studied psychology, right. Maybe I copyrighted, but you, you can compare it. I studied psychology, right. Maybe I copyrighted, but you can compare it to how do you call it?
Speaker 2:Introvertive people and extrovert right. So, if you love to expose yourself, you know you show videos of yourself, you show reels, you have time for that, you have energy for that, you have inspiration for that, and you don't think, oh no, I have to go on social media again and then maybe the world of Instagram is the one for you. If you are actually an analytical person, who you know works more with numbers, and you say this is my years of experience, this is how many weddings I made, this is my you know, then maybe the Google world is your world and you should more work on your blog, on your portfolio, on your website, and dive deep, dive into SEO. I think that it's crazy to try to do everything Like it's really crazy.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, even one of them is already well.
Speaker 1:I just think for my kind of go-to advice is for local businesses, seo Generally.
Speaker 1:I'm starting to tell people, especially expats, like, unless you have a very specific niche, don't try for SEO, because you're just not going to be able to rank and with generally Gen AI, all this, it's just going to be harder and harder. But I do think that's different if you're a local business, because people are like I need a wedding photographer in this area and then you can use google business profile and then you have like, whereas instagram it just, yes, you have to be there and show you have a portfolio, but it seems like how like people will see you, or I guess there's hashtags, but I do not work anymore.
Speaker 2:They do not work anymore because they keep inventing. You know, I mean now it's very angry message, maybe, but I think Instagram used to be great because you used to show your work yourself, you, you, you got visibility and everything. Now they completely moved into this world of ads.
Speaker 2:They there are so many coaches trying to teach you how to do this ads. Even I am now learning that. So if whoever has questions I'm now freshly learning, I will have. I will. I will will start my first ad today, probably. So feel free to reach out, because it's I have a feeling people sell to us something very complicated for thousands of euro which, at the end of the day, doesn't work for many people. I don't know. Will it work for me? I don't know. But you know now everything goes into this paid ads and you feel trapped, like you also have to do that, but everyone is now doing that. So what will be your difference with everyone else? As someone who is, who is engaged, you will go on Facebook and you will get 10 advertisements of Munich photographers. I mean, in this case, I would feel like leave me alone. I will go on Google and look for my photographer myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, interesting. So I actually used to work in the wedding industry or my first business, I did wedding printables. It was like pre-Canva and I was already here and in those days and I don't know if this still works there used to be like, okay, there was Pinterest, but there was also directories were really big. Do those still work? And sometimes, even when I'm like trying to find a photographer in a certain location for a client to do like a branded shoot, I will go to the because it's off season during the week. A lot of wedding photographers also do branded shoots and I'll try and find wedding directories.
Speaker 1:Is that still?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. Never heard of that. Wedding directories there are some wedding planners who do the apps, who help couples to plan the wedding, you know, and they have the database of photographers. I don't work with that. I don't want to be in the pool with everyone else being compared. Yeah, I will try, still try my best with with a little bit of sao which I can.
Speaker 2:I never will be number one in munich, never, ever. It's clear. But what I see working and I don't know what's technology behind this google maps, the ratings. So if someone in my area, like like north of Munich, is looking for a photographer, I might pop up on Google maps because I have very good ratings. I have like 65 stars ratings, I heard five stars is not even optimal. It's better to be 4.8 because five stars are not that unbelievable, basically Not realistic. So this is where, and now I will give you one advice which I never gave away but if a wedding photographer or any photographer would love to shoot in a particular location, go and trade this location and upload your pictures.
Speaker 1:This works crazy wait, so go to google maps.
Speaker 2:You can do that yes, and you can do. This is actually google business profile and many people say that google business profile will become more and more important yes, I agree yes so people don't want to go on the website, they don't want to go on instagram. They see google business profile, see pictures, pictures, see good reviews. It's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. I mean it kind of can replace it again. I think that works for local businesses where you need to get your haircut. Hire a photographer that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I have a profile.
Speaker 1:I just did this with a client in Berlin and she focuses on functional health, and I was like you need to go reach out to your clients, have them leave you reviews, because it's like a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's connected to the website, right, I mean, you can have it without, but normally it's connected. Yeah, but now in terms of looking for a wedding photographer, yeah, I wouldn't know how I would do if I would be a bride to be there is so much and how to take a decision. I, there is so much and how to take a decision? I, maybe it's even spontaneous, maybe because of ads, but personally I ignore the ads and I want to look for someone by myself.
Speaker 1:What about networking? I thought where did I see it? On some platform? I was on, there used to be, and it's still apparently here. It's called like the Munich Hauxite meetup.
Speaker 2:Ah, yes, I actually I organized it. I organized it together with another very experienced photographer.
Speaker 1:A couple running it and they got huge. They got absolutely huge.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know whether we talk about the same event, but on the 10th of April, like in five days, there is a big event called Munich Wedding Meetup. Right, munich Wedding Meetup. It takes place in a new. Basically it took place in passing all the time, but now it's new location, e-event it's called. And, yeah, if anyone is interested, if anyone is from the wedding industry, reach out to me, I will provide you all the details.
Speaker 2:It's already in five days and there will be all the wedding how do you say Dienstleister? All the wedding professionals, Vendors yeah, vendors, mostly photographers, and the good thing about this event is that it's really you will find the best Munich photographers who charge 10,000 per wedding there, photographers who charge 10 000 per wedding there, and it's great for newbies, you know, to network, to, to ask maybe they can support somewhere, to just exchange the context between planners and photographers. There are a lot of starters and a lot of very experienced people who are in the industry like for 20 years okay, yeah, when I went, I was one of the there were.
Speaker 1:It was mostly photographers, but there were a few invitation designers, and it was a couple. They were Austrian. Ah, yes, of course.
Speaker 2:Ingo, carmen and Ingo. Yes, Carmen and Ingo, that's it. They will be there on 10th of April. They will be there. Last time they were not, but they will be there. I will see them for the first time. There are two couples which are very famous in this area. One is Carmen and Ingo and one is Julia and Jill and they kind of like they rule the whole industry in Germany and of course, it's more for destination weddings. It's it's more to you know. Come to the next level. I am a totally different kind of photographer. I love local, munich, urban weddings which are more, you know, intimate and and more like not 12 hours but more like six hours. So I need to find my niche, because I have two children, I cannot be absent all the weekends and I I'm not a huge fan. I mean, I love to have a couple of huge weddings in a year, but I would never do book my whole year with the huge wedding. So destination weddings, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when they this was, uh, maybe 2011. It was a long time ago and it they just started in like a cafe and then they started bringing people over, and this is like when Jasmine star was coming up and getting and I it was kind of before uh, the whole online thing exploded. But they were, they totally rode the wave yeah, so cool.
Speaker 2:Maybe you want to join us and, and, and come join us on 10th of april. This would be cool it's another life.
Speaker 1:It's been so long since I've done any wedding, but what you are doing.
Speaker 2:What you are doing is totally important, also for any wedding vendor, right yeah, I suppose.
Speaker 1:So I suppose so yeah, I didn't think of that as long as they're an expat. Um, okay, so other questions I have. So you I mean you also mentioned that you, you do business events and you got like, how did you? So you built this business? How did you, as a side hustle yeah, like a lot of people would be happy to take, you know, be the photographer for an event at Allianz? How did you start getting clients?
Speaker 2:oh, oh my God, it's a it's a difficult question. I think what helped me is for sure, first of all, my husband, who took the kids each time I had I had the job. But even before how to get to that, I think for sure Instagram helped me a lot, without any paid ads. So, really being building trust, talking a lot about what I'm doing, a lot asking people, telling them what I want. I want to be photographer, I want to do that. I mean this really it doesn't bring effect immediately, but it works, it just works. Being good networker and also, also, for sure, having my big network in the business life where I am a consultant. So all of this, all the support also from my colleagues and, I think, also my coach, my photography coach, vitaly maybe he will listen to that and, yeah, he did a lot for me, of course, paid, but also a lot unpaid. He has this number one podcast in Germany for photographers.
Speaker 2:And I just reached out to him one day. It was many years ago, maybe four years ago. I just you know I love podcasts, love podcasts, Participate and listen to them. Thanks to everyone who puts the knowledge out there. You know, thanks to you and to him. And I just reached out. He was so friendly. We immediately started talking. Once I started to earn money, he always gave me this trust in yourself. You can do that. You can do that. I will give you a couple of advices, but you can do it with your personality. And each time for the next bigger job, he prepared me. Each time, I was not sure. First time, and one day a woman called me who is the friend of my husband, from Austria, and she said Tatiana, could you imagine I work in an agency? Could you imagine to photograph an event with women? By the way, also takes place 18th of April in a Werkstatt Mitte right, so Osbornhof there. A huge event female future festival.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know that one yes, it's already third year that I will be photographing it. So she asked, and I'm like no way, no way, I can do that. How many people? 700? No, no, I I'm already getting sick from talking to you about that, please, no.
Speaker 2:And she's like try it, try it, and then, I talked to vittorio and he said go do that. Yeah, crazy. And you know, of course, this event it's like it spreads like fire. If you deliver good pictures, people use them for social media and you always need to go extra mile, like people were writing me in the middle of the night oh, do you have this one fresh picture for me? I want to create a post. I know a lot of photographers who would say, no, you didn't pay me for that and you know it's not my working hours. No, you have to go extra mile and you do that if you burn for what you do. If you're not, if you do it for money, you would probably say I switch off my phone for the night because I sleep, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean, at some point you want to get out of that. In the beginning you got to hustle and be scrappy. I think for sure, especially in that industry where it is like photography and posts and everybody's just trying to do everything. But so when you said your colleagues at the it company helped you a lot, were you just telling people, hey, I'm doing this now, or, like, how did you get the word out?
Speaker 2:yeah, I see a lot of people who do not speak about what they do like. For example, now I photographed in austria a book writer. She wrote a book together with her mom. She's a great also side entrepreneur because she works in a big company as the in biotech industry and she also has two kids and our kids are friends there where my parents-in-law live. And I'm like someone told me you wrote a book, yes, why don't you tell me you need pictures? You need photos. You need an Instagram. Are you crazy? Who do you think will buy your book? There are 1 million books out there. She's like okay, let's do this. I mean, we need to, we it's. It's a difference if you are stalking someone or if you are too persistent of course not, but we need to talk about what we love. And if we talk about what we love, people will trust us, because it's not just.
Speaker 1:You know, let me take your money and and, and and that's it yeah, so talking a lot about that, yeah when you're a business owner, you have to get really comfortable with marketing and sales or if you're doing any kind of project or putting anything out there like you can't just like hope people will discover you.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I have an issue with you, know, doing too much advertisement like, real advertisement like, but I don't have an issue to tell people about what I love. So I rather talk a lot, even with, with neighbors, with you, know everyone. You never know where the jobs are coming from. Produce your, your, your business cards, have them always with you. Just think about that. There is so much information in the world at the moment. If you don't talk, no chance, no one will ask yeah, yeah, it it's true.
Speaker 1:So I know we're running up against the time you have, so I'm gonna wrap up with the last question, which is is there anything you wish you knew before you got started, or any advice you'd give to somebody starting?
Speaker 2:um. So advice for sure make sure you have you. You you get the basic skills you need for this job, like in my case. I immediately took 300 euro and I made a great photography basis course which gave me everything you need to know before you start. Then it's about practice, practice, practice. But you cannot practice without some basics. If you build websites, make sure you do a course. It doesn't have to be thousand euros where someone promises you to make an expert out of you. Know you will be expert with practice, but to get this, to invest a little bit to get the basic knowledge perfect. This is one the most important thing. Without it, I couldn't start it. If someone would like to have this link thing without it, I couldn't start it. If someone would like to have this link. It's great also for hobby photographers, for everyone, for everyone who wants to work with manual mode of cameras, professional cameras, and it's it's not expensive. It's great, um, it's an austrian online school where 10 000 of people already went through. And then, of course, as we said, talking about what you love, talking about that.
Speaker 2:Don't be afraid to take your first money for a job. Don't be afraid. Probably don't run and photograph a wedding, but you can go and photograph someone in case they don't like. You can repeat, you can redo something. You can redo, but don't be afraid even 50 euro to start with something and then go step by step. You don't have sometimes you get this pressure or to be to start it, I need to have everything.
Speaker 2:I need to have my website perfectly done. I need to have my story, a berata I need to have. Do go step by step. Watch YouTube videos. You don't need to pay expensive courses. Do basics first, like for photography. Register your client, tell your employer, reach out to me if you want to hear about first steps more. But those first steps, you'll find them if you look for it, but don't be under pressure that you need everything. Find them if you look for it, but don't be under pressure that you need everything. No, we start step by step and we get the customers we need and then we go and develop ourselves. Don't think, as you said at the beginning, done better. Done is better than perfect. Funny enough, it's the absolutely favorite phrase of my photography coach. So I think I sympathize a lot with people who say done is better than perfect, because we need to learn from what we do, we just, we just need to learn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good advice. So where can people find you, tatiana?
Speaker 2:Yeah, on Instagram, of course, if you look for Tatiana Pirka photography and my website is very easy it's wwwtatianapirkade wwwtetianapirkacom, so it's very easy and feel free to reach out for any questions, for anything. I'm very helpful and it doesn't cost anything.
Speaker 1:We'll put those in the show notes. Cool, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on today it was great meeting you and chatting with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Have a great day and keep in touch. Thanks for listening. You can find this episode and all other episodes of the Germany Expat Business.
Speaker 1:Show chatting with you. Thank you so much. Have a great day and keep in touch. Thanks for listening. You can find this episode and all other episodes of the Germany Expat Business Show at my website at wwwEleanorMeierhofercom slash podcast. That's wwwE-L-E-A-N-O-R-M-A-Y-R-H-O-F-E-Rcom slash podcast. See you next time.