The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
Leveraging Specialized Knowlege to Found an Enterprising Business in Renewables - Ira Ribeiro
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Thermodemand, founded by Irapua Santos Ribeiro, is a consultancy focused on sustainable energy solutions for industrial applications, particularly in solar and renewable process heat technologies.
His company aims to help industrial clients reduce their carbon footprint and operational costs. Ira has started the business as a sole proprietorship, but plans to expand by forging strategic partnerships and delivering innovative, high-quality services worldwide.
Irapua an impressive professional background in renewable energy. He earned degrees in Mechanical Engineering, an MBA in Business and Project Management, and a European Master in Renewable Energy, specializing in Solar Thermal Energy.
He’s also the father of twins (two little girls) and sports enthusiast who also writes on his free time about life related subjects.
In this episode we talked about:
🇧🇷 How he moved from Brazil to Australia and then to Europe to pursue a career in renewable energy
🇪🇺 Why it was easier to get his qualifications recognized in Europe rather than Australia
🤓 Per my request, Ira explained solar thermal energy to me ‘like I’m five years old’ (basically, it’s using solar to generate heat rather than electricity)
🧠 How his specialized knowledge in the industrial solar space was an opportunity to found a consulting business
💼 The gap between what’s happening in academia and useful products and services being brought to the market
💪 Why he went directly to work in the industry after getting his mechanical engineering degree to get out of the ‘research mindset’
🤝 How his extensive industry network provides an immediate customer base
⚙️ Why he is spending a lot of time working on SOPs and documenting his processes in this early phase of the business
🕶️ Why (for now) he’s remaining an Einzelunternehmer instead of a UG
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
Starting or running a business in Germany as a foreigner? Already running an online business in Germany as an expat? Wanting to grow your German-based business? Working as a freelancer in Germany? You'll love my guide with over 30 resources for expat business owners in Germany.
Hi, I'm Eleanor Meyerhofer, a native Californian designer and digital strategist. In October of 1999, a few years after graduating from design school, I flew from San Francisco to Munich with a fistful of Deutschmarks, a dial-up connection and an extremely vague plan. Twenty-plus years later, after a 10-year stint at a global agency agency freelancing and launching two online businesses, I'm still here Now I'm talking to other expat business owners to share knowledge, stories and inspiration for other non-Germans running businesses in Germany. I am here with Ira Ribeiro and I am going to just launch into it and ask you the question I ask everybody who comes on to this podcast, and that is what is the two-minute story of how you ended up in Germany?
Speaker 3:well, my start to come to Germany can be longer, but I try to shorten it because I was first, I graduated in Brazil. I come from Brazil. I lived there until I was 34. And at that time I was already with a lot of experience in the market there and I decided to move. I was working the last time in the mining industry and I was trying to do something that would be better for the future and for myself and I thought about the renewable energy sector. And then I went to the other side of the world, not to Germany, but I went to Australia to start my life there. I sold my car, I closed my apartment and everything in Brazil and then I went to Australia.
Speaker 3:Then, after seven months in Australia, I realized that my path there would take longer than I expected, Also because of the cost of studying there. I had to get my degree recognized and so on, and I did not want to spend that much time. I have friends who had experience of more than five years like trying to get recognized to work in this field there. Then I decided to change again and to find a way to do a master degree, which I did not have at the moment. I was only with an MBA and then I was looking for alternatives for doing a master of science in this area and then I found several. I've made like a very thorough research because I was considering everywhere almost. Then I ended up finding two interesting ones, one in Germany, one in the Netherlands. I was rejected by the German one but then I was accepted by the Dutch one, and this Dutch master was interesting because it was first semester there.
Speaker 3:Second semester I could choose six universities in different countries. Semester I could choose six universities in different countries. Germany was also on them, but I chose one specialization which is the one I did in solar thermal, so concentrated solar energy, it's like renewable energy with solar technologies, and this was in the south of France. I did my second semester there and then my third semester should be a master, write my master thesis, and for that reason was looking for companies working in this field and I found Freiburg. Actually, I already thought the University of Freiburg was interesting and so on, but I did not want to continue in research as I was doing my master work. I wanted to do the research in a company with a specific business focus and I found out the company I came to do my master thesis with, and then I ended up in Germany for my master thesis and then after that I got a job offer which I accepted because it was in line to my expectation and I stayed. The company now filed for insolvency, just like this year.
Speaker 3:And that was. We'll come to this story later, but that is the reason why I started my own business after these seven years working for them.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is quite a journey.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, I do have two follow-up questions. Well, one is a point I'm kind of surprised. Okay, well, you didn't go from Australia to Germany, but I would have thought like it would have been super easy in Australia to get your qualifications recognized and all of this, but it was actually easier in Europe and Holland specifically.
Speaker 3:It was easier Actually. For example, I could do also my master there in Australia. I was also applied. I also applied for another master in Perth. The ones found I was in brisbane when I arrived there and the master that I found in brisbane. They were very research oriented, like you basically would work alone and then you would at the end you would write something about it, and I wanted something which would give more content for me. So this, this type, I found one in Perth, but then when I compared the cost of the master and living and everything in Australia, I probably know that it's super expensive.
Speaker 3:Then I made the cost-benefit analysis and I said no I prefer to choose something else, and it was also the same time that my dad passed away, in 2016. So then I was thinking OK, europe is not that close to Brazil, but it's closer In Australia. I need at least two days. And from here I can go from morning arriving in the evening there, yeah yeah, that's far, and then I want to get into the company you founded.
Speaker 2:but can you tell me, like I'm five, what solar thermal energy is or what that means?
Speaker 3:Well, solar thermal energy, which is the field that I specialized on, is actually converting the solar energy into heat which is actually the most common form of energy that we use.
Speaker 3:We use it in our showers, in our kitchen, for wash machines and so on, and the technology is different than the one that is from solar photovoltaic.
Speaker 3:I also studied for solar photovoltaic. My original idea was to specialize in solar photovoltaic. Also when I went to Australia I was thinking about that, but I have a mechanical engineering background and solar photovoltaic is very electrical engineering related. Then I thought that would be more interesting to focus on thermal energy, which is actually what I do, also for the company now, which is also one of the big well, we call it the elephant in the room, that nobody sees it, but it's there like making a mess, because I don't know if this is a common uh, unknown uh statistic, but heat is like half of the energy we use worldwide and we still focus on electrification, electricity and so on, so forth, which is a very important part, but the big part is being still being left behind, although the german government and other governments are already taking steps to decarbonize the heat sector, and the heat sector can be from commercial, from residential and from industrial sectors.
Speaker 3:In my case, I decided to focus on industry because it's one of the big markets and on the other side, there is also lack of know-how and knowledge on this, like people don't know how to use it or don't know how to implement them. They are very used to the daily business of buying fuel, burning and producing the product they have in their factory and changing. That is a very challenging task and I decided that that would be when I started working in this field. I decided that would be a very good challenge for myself as well, like help this transition on the industrial sector.
Speaker 2:So just to clarify. So when you say photovoltaic I'm not going to pronounce it right but you mean like solar panels, basically Solar panels, yeah, okay, okay, so we're.
Speaker 3:Just a quick difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 3:Solar photovoltaics actually have these panels and it absorbs the light. Basically speaking, it absorbs the light, basically speaking, absorbs the light and then converts that in electrons, and these electrons is what you collect and then you put the on the grid or you connect to your household appliance. What I do and what we do with solar thermal when I talk about solar thermal, is actually more in the direction of converting these electrons in heat. You can heat up water. You can convert that in steam. You can heat a thermal oil. We convert the. You can change the energy, not to electricity, but to convert this energy actually, you heat up an element. You heat up a fluid, specifically speaking, and this fluid can be also air. You heat up the air and this air is used in the process. That's what, for example, industry uses mostly in daily business. We call it process heat and there is a very big demand for decarbonization of the process heat in industry setups, I think they are somehow covered with the electricity.
Speaker 3:In many cases they can also have a PPA and buy electricity from somewhere else. But for decarbonizing the heat it's challenging because they cannot produce all the energy they need with their own roofs. In many cases they can't. They cannot produce biogas in their own backyard, so they have to find a way, and normally the combination of that different technologies or different technology types is what I propose to do with the company that I'm founded.
Speaker 2:And let's talk about that company, thermodemand. So that's where you come in. And again, let's keep with this. Tell me, like I'm five, so you, how, what are you offering? How are you like? You have a technology to do this, like producing a heat-to-heat element and make non-electricity.
Speaker 3:So what I found out from my experience in the last years working at Industrial Solar is that there is a lack of know-how in this field. So then I put in my portfolio technical trainings because people don't know and, for example, development organizations, agencies. They also have the need to qualify more technical people in the countries they are working for understanding, knowing which technologies are available, how to size them, how to propose a solution that's applicable for the country or for the industry in that country. This is part of what I thought in putting my portfolio.
Speaker 3:But also there is a lack of know-how in how to size those things like properly speaking. And then we come up with the challenge that, okay, there are, for example, solar thermal technologies. There are maybe five different ones. They work with different temperatures, with different types of mirrors or absorber types that can collect the solar energy. Which one is suitable for me? Which conditions do I have to fulfill to feed that? And this energy is always related to the process, so every factory will have a different setup every factory even if they are from the same group of companies, they have a different setup.
Speaker 3:Every factory, even if they are from the same group of companies, they have a different setup because the buildings are different, they have a different production line, so there's a very we still try to standardize as much as possible, but there is a very big challenge to make tailored solutions or proposals to these companies, and that's where I come in. I help them to propose the right solution technologically speaking, and then how to size them to their needs. I don't have the own technology, but I work in partnership with technology providers that have the technology, specific technologies, and then I propose their technologies for this case or for that case. They depend on the application that is suitable, for example, some collector types. If talking about solar thermal, some collector types, they have different temperature levels they can reach and sometimes if the customer needs a very high temperature, this solution is not suitable for them. But I have to work with the other one which then can provide the right temperature that they need.
Speaker 3:Okay, this is one example. I can maybe add a little bit more that I also found out. There is also some requirements for process optimization everything related to process heat, process optimization. I added that to my portfolio as well and in some cases I would work on a commission basis based on the product that I'm trying to sell that is suitable for this application. In some cases there will be studies technical economic feasibility studies that will be done and then I get the payment from the technical study that will be provided. For trainings I'm commissioned from different agents agents and then I get the commission from from the agent as well okay, let me see if I understood this correctly.
Speaker 2:So in the first kind of prong, is you're essentially doing consulting like if I'm James? Consulting factory owner and say I have a ceramics factory.
Speaker 3:Let's say and I want to use like sustainable heat.
Speaker 2:It's really hot and you come in and say, okay, jane, I see you need like an oven with I don't know 5,000 degrees. No idea what. I'm talking about Okay, you need this, this, you know mirror thing, and this other widget, and we put all those together and that will generate the heat you need, and blah, blah, blah. That's kind of what you do. And then you also have relationships with these vendors that make these these products these technical products, and then you also get a commission from those if it's the right fit.
Speaker 3:If it's implemented.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, and then, and then you do the feasibility studies, or you.
Speaker 3:I do the feasibility studies. Yes, yes so then, portfolio.
Speaker 3:I structured it in like five service, six services at the last version. The one is the project development. And project development I mean to understand the needs from the client and propose a solution and try to close the project with them. And then closing the project means like signing the contract for implementation. And then, in that case is when I get the commission from the solution that is being proposed. There is the one that is the feasibility study, which is the one that I just mentioned. They're not clear whether this solution is suitable for them. We have to spend time engineering or pre-engineering that, and then we made this study analyzing the implementation.
Speaker 3:The integration is one very important point how to integrate that that works seamlessly with the other heat sources they have. Normally we are talking about hybrid systems. That means we are not putting a standalone, like not buying a car and selling the old car. We we have to work with all the new systems together in most cases. Then I added the project management, which is also part of my background and my formation, my graduation as well. The project management if the project is implemented, I can be commissioned to manage the project on behalf of the client or on behalf of the technology provider or depends on who has the needs, the technical training as I mentioned to you, which is then focused on specific markets.
Speaker 3:I would not offer that for everyone. And there is then the two last ones, which one is the market studies. Market studies means to, for example, an agency needs to know how would be the implementation of renewable heat technologies in country A. I help them to strategize. How would be that, how to be that step, how big is the market, and so on and so forth. And the last one is the process. Optimization, which I already previously commented, is then like looking at some specific processes touching more or less the process, by like making a solution, a proposal, how to optimize that process, that you can reduce losses or reduce energy use, and so on okay.
Speaker 2:So, thermodemand, is this essentially like you as a consultant or are you starting it as like a gay MBA? Are you gay with employees, or is it all you right now?
Speaker 3:I thought about founding a UG, which they call it in Germany, the limited liability with no minimum capital. But the bureaucracy is quite a lot to do this alone and I started. I thought about starting this alone now and next year. Then I will get bigger and then get more people on board. My objective is in the next two years to then change to the GmbH, because also the as you know, like Einzeltename, as I am at the moment in my company, the liability lays on all my assets and I want to reduce that for the future, especially if I get bigger projects or I have more projects in parallel, but I started with Einzelunternehmen because of the bureaucracy.
Speaker 3:We talk about this later. I saw here some questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but wait. So. Uge is not Einzelunternehmer.
Speaker 3:No no. Uge is similar to GmbH. They call it in Germany Mini GmbH, mini.
Speaker 2:GmbH. Okay, I thought that was easy to set up, but it's still a lot of.
Speaker 3:It's easier, but you still have to do. For example, you have to handle the register. You have to do it as well. Okay, okay, you have to retain part of your gains every year to build up the capital until you reach up the 25,000, which is the minimum for GmbH, for example. There are those conditions.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's right. I think I know that Einzelunternehmer. Sorry, but what is the letter form of that? That?
Speaker 3:is like a solo proprietorship.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it is that. So that's what I am too. Okay, I didn't know if it was like another thing. I hear new ones all the time, so okay, people can like, sometimes they can.
Speaker 3:The differentiation between them is very thin, like how to say. That's like very minimum. I cannot really tell, for example, if if you start as a fr rooflet depends on the amount of our earnings you have. Yeah, you have to do a get very bad tiger, for example yeah, yeah, yeah so those things.
Speaker 2:So I thought the name I recognize as the one that it has a bit more bureaucracy, but you don't, don't not not jumping into the okay, or the or the game bar okay, okay, so, um, the other thing I wanted to know was so you've spent a lot of time in academia, but also in industry, and how did that and did it influence your decision to start your own company?
Speaker 3:realized that from my experience over time that the there is a lot of new things that are being thought, but they are not being brought to the market in the proper way. Sometimes even companies that are founded with founders that came from the academia. I realized that they have a lot of academia thoughts and know-how, but they cannot bring that to the business reality. How come?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know, I think probably it's the mindset. Probably it starts from the mindset. My experience is that I started after I graduated in mechanical engineering. I started right directly in a company, so I did not go to research and make papers about it. So you have to implement. You have to show the results. You have to show the results from today to the next deadline you have.
Speaker 3:In academia, in research, you have a lot of time to do it, you are being paid and you don't worry much about the results because you are researching, and I think that's the challenge when you switch from research to business Business.
Speaker 3:I mean outside the academia sector and my feeling is that there is still gaps in communication. I realize that sometimes people don't communicate properly what they are bringing to the market. You are somehow not speaking the same language with the end user. There's a lack of know-how also how the business works. It's like you have the solution but you don't know the problem and you're trying to sell the solution somehow, and a lot of researchers have this problem. Unfortunately. I have some colleagues that they might agree with me, some they might not, but the truth is that, starting at Industrial Solar, we have the experience of doing both, because Industrial Solar also had a research sector, a research department.
Speaker 3:I was working also in this research department and I realized that even deadlines there were somehow like loose, flexible, you could play around with them and so on, and the end solution that you bring does not necessarily have to fulfill specific criteria as you have for the business. So my idea with Thermodemand is that I will bring clear solutions that can be implemented, that has a value from the beginning already thought up. That is the idea.
Speaker 2:So how did you know that there was a demand for solar thermal consulting?
Speaker 3:Well, solar thermal actually for heat, as I told you, heat is half of the energy used. And as heat is half of the energy used, and.
Speaker 3:I know that solar thermal is available in most of the places that I target as work. We'll talk about that later, so there is space for a lot of that. There is. A very important concept is that, talking about heat and electricity, electricity is easy or easier to be produced in somewhere else and with cables being brought to a factory, but heat is not Heat. You have to produce it locally. You can transport fuel. That's what the companies do.
Speaker 3:So, they bring fuel from somewhere else, but the heat is not really. Even heat networks like district heating is still not a thing. I think maybe in the future it will become more popular. But for industry district heating is nothing to talk about yet. There are maybe some few cases, but it's still not the case. So heat is the thing that has to be produced and consumed locally. How to produce and consume that locally and that's where I come with Thermodemand to help on.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's talk about that. So you have this. Know how and obviously this is industry and business to business how do you just go to factory Like, how are you gonna go to the market with this? Who are you gonna go to and offer your services to, and how?
Speaker 3:Well. So, for example, I realized from also previous experiences that there is someone in these companies that they are either commissioned to bring innovation to the company, or they are commissioned to reduce costs, or they are commissioned to achieve, for example, the net zero targets that the company has. How can they do that? They are doing it already with electricity, because it's somehow simpler, but they are still struggling to do this with the heat sector, and that is where I come in play, so they can also find me.
Speaker 3:I'm setting up also now a website website, but actually I have built a network yeah that comes from the industry that I worked on and it comes also from my previous experience at the last company I worked here in germany and I still have the local partners and they like working with me and they said if you start such a entrepreneurial path, I would like to join because I trust that we will build and bring together a good solution for my clients. And they already have the clients working with all the products they have in their portfolio. So my idea to go to the market is to have the two paths. When I talk about industrial clients, okay, it's to go either with a partner and then we work together. For the case, for example, if I do a technology technical feasibility study, we propose the study together, we define the scope of works of each of us and then we implement the study and then both have the both know-how and the commission on the cost of the study, both know-how and the commission on the cost of the study.
Speaker 3:There's then the case when the customer can come directly to me. If I can do that only myself, I do it. If I have to commission, also a local partner because most of my work is one of the points I wanted to mention Most of my contact network is outside Germany. Contact network is outside Germany so if I want to commission that work in a country A, it's easier that I work with a local partner Because, for example, if we have to do a site visit, then I have to. I can tell him like, look at this and this and this and this, let's collect this information and then we can work together to make this study, for example.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, and have you like picked an industry Like? So I think I know there's like chemicals or certain like heat intensive industries. Are you just kind of anybody who uses a lot of heat?
Speaker 3:Well, I made already also some studies before that was focused on industry assessment. Industrial assessment the energy-intensive industries. There are different types depending on the temperature level they work, depending on the number of industries they have. So, for example, chemical plants, they are very energy-intensive but there are not so many. In comparison to food and beverage industry, they are less energy-intensive, but there are many more.
Speaker 2:Okay, as an example.
Speaker 3:And my idea is, of course, to be open for both, but the communication and the message is different from one from the other one. If I talk about the target markets, the food and beverage is probably one of the first. Then there is our textile, pharmaceutical, chemical, as you said. There is also the mining industry. In some countries they are super important and they also need heat for their processes. There is like a manufacturing industry. It's different manufacturing types. They call it FMCG Fast-moving consumer goods. They have to produce several things uh, they're not specifically like one type of product and they also have factories worldwide. There is also different types of clients. Sometimes they have a local company in a country only, uh, work in this country. Sometimes, like multinationals, they have subsidiaries in different countries and I target some countries that I have more experience with, which then is where I started. For example, I have partners in Latin America, then I keep with them In Southern Europe, then I keep working with them In Africa, then I keep working with them africa then I keep working them, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So all over the world.
Speaker 3:That's a, that's a lot yeah, of course I have to streamline the the flux and the the work, because of course I cannot do everything yeah not everything is interesting or important. So then when we discuss this for example, it's a specific patent then we know that we have to target there, or the ones that are much more likely to get the solution accepted or implemented.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you alluded to this because I shared this question with you beforehand. But in this kind of industry, I would imagine there's like a lot of regulation and red tape. Is that true?
Speaker 3:Well, there is the idea that I, for example especially talking about the industry I do business as usual. They prefer to do business as usual for a very good reason because they have to meet their targets, and their targets I mean production targets and they are afraid of changing, touching anything that can affect that. So there is a fear of changes in that case.
Speaker 2:Okay, sorry, what do you mean? Business as usual.
Speaker 3:Business as usual means producing heat for their processes with the conventional fuel source.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:Got it. That's the business as usual. And then, when you come with a new solution, there is a technology risk that they don't know. There is also the availability risk that they also don't know, and it's also integration risk, which they also normally don't know. Then you have to overcome those unknowns and then see whether the benefits overcome the unknowns and the risks that are behind it. And that's where, with thermal demand, I come in.
Speaker 2:Okay, and in all these different governments, like are there, I don't know so, these mirror collectors? I think you called them. So this is like heavy equipment or it's dangerous. Can you just like I have a factory, you could just stick it out there in the back? Or do you have to, like, get permits and all this stuff?
Speaker 3:Well, we have first to see the suitability of the technology. For example, when you talk about solar thermal collectors, you have to see if the area they have is big enough for making the size of the system. That is adequate, or at least that covers a fraction of their energy. Then you have to be the suitability of this area, of course. And then there is also the matter of integrating that it's, for example, if they say I have area, but then it's far away.
Speaker 3:For example, even if I talk about heat pumps, it's another renewable thermal technology we can call it, but I have a heat source that is, I don't know, 200 meters away. Maybe it's not worth bringing that here. Where I need this here to put a heat pump here or, eventually, this. We have to analyze the case and then decide based on calculations, like calculating where you can take this heat, where you can use this heat. And when you talk about, for example, solar thermal collectors, the area is one of the main constraints. So we always talk about how much like how big is this area and how is the condition of this area Like how big is this area and how is the condition of this area If it's ground, you have to analyze less things, but when you talk about roofs, you have to analyze the load the roof can withstand Regarding regulations to implement. That is less, because you are normally not talking that you are doing something outside the factory. So, as long as you fulfill the technical criteria for conventional boilers or conventional heat systems.
Speaker 3:You are covered on that Solar thermos. Sometimes they ask if the mirrors could make like a glare in the sky if you are close in airport. But then we also show the studies that show that this does not happen because of the condition, the distance or the size or whatever concentration ratio we call it that we have in the system and we have to overcome several unknowns and questions like these ones. But the regulations to prevent those installations, normally they don't exist. The permits exist. Sometimes they can really slow the process.
Speaker 3:But, then knowing that from the beginning, that is the objective, to do this study and then analyze those conditions from the beginning and then to plan the implementation, already considering those permits if they are required. In some countries there is really no red tapes on this side. The red tapes more come from the company itself, like you are trying to implement something new, and then, for example, the operation manager they don't really want anything that will disturb their thing, but the maintenance manager, manager, maybe they want, and then we have to find a compromise like how to to make this and also to. Normally it's related to fear, like I have the fear of disturbing my process, I have the fear of not fulfilling, or, if this is not performing as I expect, I have the fear of like being how to say, like being seen as like some stupid people that brought something new that doesn't work at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a risk with the unknown. Do sometimes like, conversely, do regulations help? So, for example, are there countries where certain industries are under pressure to meet, like you said, certain net zero requirements by a certain year, so they have to do it, and then you can say, you know, step in and say, ha ha, I have the solution for you.
Speaker 3:Yes, there is, and there is also now, especially talking about Europe. Now there's the new plans from the European Commission that is trying trying to push and reduce the barriers. They are now approving that on the eu level and they have to be translated to the government levels, to the country governments. Some countries are already facilitating that. For example, germany, france, spain has already some good, good, good steps ahead on that. Some countries are still behind. And there is also the. Some countries are also pushing those innovations with subsidies or with tax reductions or with tax benefits or somehow trying to push the companies, not only like pressing them to change, but also making them get some benefit back from that.
Speaker 3:I think there is a lot to do still, especially in the market that I'm working. Some countries, they think their markets are mature enough and then when you see how many systems were implemented in the last year I don't know five, ten, which is small for a country in any size you could see. But this is things that has to go over time and also, on that point I think, comes the commission from development agencies. That's why also, I put the time of the month providing services for them, because on one side you talk about end clients when you have the need to change and the other side, you have the government pressure, and the development agencies come to help the governments to implement those strategies or build up a strategy, for example, how to decarbonize the industrial sector in country a. That is for example, then the, for example I. I work with GIZ. We call it in Germany GIZ. What is that?
Speaker 3:German Development Agency for International Cooperation. Okay. Deutsche Gesellschaft für internationale Zusammenarbeit. Okay, I've heard about them. Now.
Speaker 3:I have. They are commissioned to do renewable systems or to propose a new system in several countries around the world and they have subsidiaries or people working in different countries from the German government as well, and they normally have bilateral agreements, for example. Now there is a new one, for example, between Germany and Brazil, as an example now because of the new governments, and they are more or less aligned with the strategies. They then have a commission to push. For example, in Brazil there's a new one called sector coupling, so combining the electricity sector to the heat sector and trying to push this also for the industry. Then they have the need for experts and for know-how how to do it.
Speaker 3:And that is where thermal demand comes in play as well. It's not only talking about the specific technology itself in one company, but also thinking also on the macro side, and that can be also trainings that can be provided for specific staff in country, a poc, and so on. There's also other development agencies that work somehow in the same direction, like the undp, the development agency from the united nations the unido as well there are different ones, and as long as this know-how is not available everywhere, you cannot Google and find everything.
Speaker 3:That is where demand comes in.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is interesting. So it's like you're not inventing any new technology, you just understand and can consult about it. So if I have this all correct, yeah, and can consult about it. So if I have this all correct, yeah. So if I can ask how? Much of your time as a new business is spent on like customer acquisition. Is that like the? My guess would be that would be the main thing you're doing now. Is that?
Speaker 3:Well, that is the thing for the moment. As long as I have like a little big network and quite well connected, I'm actually taking the work that I'm having now from the network and helping the network to to fulfill their commitments. Uh, so I'm not doing that much. So I would say if I put in percentage I would put less than 20% of my time now.
Speaker 2:Okay, because it just automatically comes. That's like great.
Speaker 3:And also because of the know-how, and as long as the know-how is not available everywhere, you cannot like go and search for someone who knows what I'm telling you here and then you find several profiles, and this know-how is built based on learning from the school and doing things, and that's where I think that I bring on.
Speaker 2:So your potential challenge down the line will be more scaling to find people who have the know-how and skills and knowledge to like be part of your company To be part of the company?
Speaker 3:yeah, but for that I'm already doing a very important step, which normally I know that many companies don't do defining the processes for every service so. I'm doing that already now, before having the projects for some services, because as long as I have the process defined, I know which data I have to collect, how I collect, how I process and which outcome should bring in.
Speaker 3:So it's easier to get someone on board even without experience like long experience on that, because my idea is to define processes that I can bring people show the process I'm on board with, even without experience like long experience on that because you you have my ideas to define processes that I can bring people show the process. You have to do it and then I can supervise them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just curious.
Speaker 3:Do you?
Speaker 2:call that SOPs in your industry.
Speaker 3:Not exactly.
Speaker 2:There's a book, like in the kind of digital tech online I would apply to anybody. It's called the E-Myth Revisited and that's what every business owner says. You make your SOP Standard Operating Procedures and you just start documenting everything you do so somebody could go tomorrow and you could bring somebody in and say look at the SOP for that. So that's essentially what you're building.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I know, I know that this is challenging to do everything at the same time, so then I spend some time and I have also some internal deadline that I put for defining those and also to work on the projects and also to work with the network, like build and and and work together with the network. So I'm doing all the the things more or less in parallel. Sometimes some weeks I have less work in one field and then I give more priority to the other one.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:But this is super important because as long as I plan to grow, I have already planned to have, for example, I don't know, I cannot say I don't know because I have planned, but I plan to have, for example, four people in two years, at least four people working for the company. Then, of course, I have to define the things that these four people can really perform on the way that I'm expecting and I'm expecting now from the beginning what people can do in three years. That's my way of thinking.
Speaker 2:I'm curious. I mean this, is you alluded to this before? Like the kind of mindset in academia versus somebody who's worked in the field. I mean, a lot of this is like business, Like how did you, did you learn the business side of this? Just from working at companies, already of this? Just from working at?
Speaker 3:companies already. Well, I learned from my first internship because I started learning there, because at that time it was a it, I was working the railroad sector, which is a very challenging sector anywhere in the world because the distance are long. So I learned from that that, especially when you want to bring something new, you have to change processes. You have to know what people are doing, you have to know how they are doing and why they are doing, and then the business comes from that. So, for example, I have to go to, for example, at that time, workshops spread around the country and say that we are going to change the processes.
Speaker 3:Whoa but I'm working here 25 years and I always did this this way. Why do I have to change it? And then we show how you change, you can improve, and then you can reduce time, you can reduce failure and so on, so forth. So this is actually somehow similar to what I started doing my internship. When I did it was 2004 when I started and that is my idea to bring to business. So first you have to understand and my internal demand should do the same Understand what are the things, the problems, the pain points, what are their challenges, their fears, and then propose something that actually overcome that.
Speaker 2:Okay, Great. Okay. So as we wrap up, do you have any lessons learned or advice or things you would do differently that you can share with anybody listening?
Speaker 3:Well, actually, especially funding and company here in Germany, I would recommend to get consulting to go to people who did, or to workshops. There's like the employment agency actually recommend you to do that. I was already on the way and then I did not have the time to join one of the courses, but I recommend doing that because there is a lot to learn, especially depending on your level of german.
Speaker 3:Depend like you may spend more or less time if you want to find a company in germany and you have less time. If you want to find a company in germany and you have to understand if you are doing business only in germany or also abroad, and you have to know the rules, how to do it. Uh, so you can speed up your decision process. My case, for example I have the decision from the beginning I wanted to go more or less direction of a limited liability company. Then, after learning the challenges of doing that alone, not having to spend money and money and money to get more consultants to work for you for financial and tax purposes this is, I think, one of the main challenges here in Germany to understand and to have this in the proper way. So my idea, my recommendation, is get someone on board with you from the beginning if you want to found a company that can help you on these matters later, especially on the financial and tax part.
Speaker 2:Okay, was this like at the IHK? Or like where were these like organizations or these consultants or just private consultants?
Speaker 3:There are both things Like IHK also have a very strong network and and and and content on these topics. I started having with them already, but I was already on the way which when I already have decided what to do.
Speaker 3:So actually, I learned about that later. But, for example, one thing if, once you start a company, you have to decide, if you have to understand, whether you go to IHK, whether you go to Hans Vekamer, whether you go to any other thing, all these things you have to know somehow. And this is not available everywhere. Of course, there is nowadays several platforms. I was using some of them when I got my knowledge, like Unternehmenswelt. There is the Grunder platform.
Speaker 2:Yeah firmade, yeah Firmade.
Speaker 3:So they are trying actually to overcome this problem that I faced when I was found the company and actually these things. I would recommend people who start to do the same, at least.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for example, one tip I got from the hacker is to use in body, boot and back. There is now one portal that you can build up your business plan. You can build up from scratch, like from the canvas to business plan, complete with the finance plan, financial plan and so on, and this everything online with recommendations or with examples and so on, is the unternehmenswerkstatt, the Bademüttelberg, and this helped me a lot, but I was already in the second version of my business plan when I learned about it.
Speaker 3:Okay, then I did the third version of my business plan. But if I knew that from the beginning, of course I probably would have speeded up the process and done it faster.
Speaker 2:Okay, so seek out the resources that are out there to help you get started.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and also I can recommend something which I did and I got the subsidy. I don't know if you call it subsidy or support from the government, it's called Grundstätten.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that because I also come from unemployment and I wanted to start a new business. The employment agency said you have to fulfill the requirements, you just have to do the process, you have to get the business plan approved and so on, and I did it. I would recommend also to look also for that.
Speaker 3:If you are not coming from unemployment, you are not eligible, so sorry, yeah, I did it a million years ago and it was great highly recommend it, it is great and it's very important that, if you want to go in that direction it was my experience, and also a friend of mine is just starting the same process now, uh, get yourself prepared, that ensure that you're really ready to do this step go for your entrepreneurial career, otherwise, your familiar, the people who assess you on the employment agency, can also not be sure whether this is suitable for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, I did it 10 years ago and I actually quit my job and I remember going through the process and getting it and I told my husband like I can't believe they're giving me all this money. When I quit my job and he was like you've been paying taxes here 10 years, like you paid into the system, and I was like, oh yeah, that's a good point but it really did it made it easier and less scary to yeah, start out, so I'm glad that's still going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and in every business like this, we know, for example, as I don't have like a product that I'm voting on online to sell, I know that the cash flow will be irregular.
Speaker 3:So this is now from the beginning and I accept that and my idea is now to overcome this irregularity. This to choose helps me, but also I have worked. I started several different small projects that I hope to get them on the mid term and I hope that I can buffer this challenge because you know there is. You have to pay many things even if you don't get any project, if you don't get any contract.
Speaker 2:Yeah, All right. Well, that is really helpful and I really appreciate having you on argue coming on, yeah, and and taking the time to explain everything to a layperson like myself. I know you mentioned you're getting your website going, but where can people find you or where will they be able to find you?
Speaker 3:Well, I will be launching this by the end of July. Thermodemandde. Okay.
Speaker 3:But also, if they want, they can send the email that I have shared with you. Europe1.ribeiro at Thermodemandde Okay, there's where you can find me. Of course, also LinkedIn, as you found me. It worksemandde Okay, that's where you can find me. Of course, also LinkedIn, as you found me works well. I have quite a big network on LinkedIn and LinkedIn also. I also have received requests in the past, and so on. This works also well If someone does not find me in any of these ways. They can find me there.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, that will all go in the show notes and again, thanks so much for coming on and look forward to checking out the new site.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thank you for the opportunity and for doing this great job. This is very good for for the newcomers. I also recommend that for for people who want to start to, to listen to the, to the, to the blog posts that you are making. Okay, Good.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening. You can find this episode and all other episodes of the Germany Expat Business Show at my website at wwweleonormeierhofercom slash podcast. Wwweleanormeierhofercom slash podcast. That's wwwEleanorMeierhofercom slash podcast. See you next time.