The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
How to build a successful portable business and popular facebook groups with Lora McInturf
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Lora McInturf supports high-performing lawyers and business professionals primarily in law, IT, finance, accounting, and coaching.
Lora's business is 100% virtual. She's worked with professionals and businesses around the world - from over 40 countries and counting.
She is also a founder and co-leader of the following groundbreaking online networking communities: Lawyers Coaching Lawyers - International Network, Women Expat Lawyers and Law Students, and Women Expat Entrepreneurs Empowered Germany.
In this episode we talked about
- How being exchange student lead to her putting down roots in Germany
- The native English speakers conundrum when it comes to learning German while working in an international corporate environment
- How multiple international moves prompted her to create a portable business that made use of her background in law without actually being a lawyer
- How marketing ourselves on our backgrounds is effective;
- Why it’s important to try and do ‘all of the things’ when first starting out
- Where she got her first clients
- How and why she founded several successful Facebook groups and the highs and lows of running them
- Visas versus permanent residency permits
- The joy of a good tech stack
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
Starting or running a business in Germany as a foreigner? Already running an online business in Germany as an expat? Wanting to grow your German-based business? Working as a freelancer in Germany? You'll love my guide with over 30 resources for expat business owners in Germany.
Hi, I'm Eleanor Meyerhofer, a native Californian designer and digital strategist. In October of 1999, a few years after graduating from design school, I flew from San Francisco to Munich with a fistful of Deutschmarks, a dial-up connection and an extremely vague plan. Twenty-plus years later, after a 10-year stint at a global agency agency freelancing and launching two online businesses, I'm still here Now I'm talking to other expat business owners to share knowledge, stories and inspiration for other non-Germans running businesses in Germany. I'm here with Laura McInturff.
Speaker 2:All right, I'm here with Laura McInturff and I'm going to ask you the question I ask everybody on this podcast, which is what't have been 10. The true root of it is in middle school, so I'm from the US too. In middle school, my parents made me take the hardest language that was available, because they thought I would be bored with everything else, and so I ended up in German language. And yeah and yeah, and so that led to, a few years later, us taking a German exchange student, which then led to our families exchanging over the years. And after I finished the bar exam, I took a trip around Europe because I was like that's the last time I'll get a big, long vacation to see my exchange family and my now husband is my exchange family's son, the original student his best friend.
Speaker 1:His best friend it's your husband is the best friend of your host family's son. Yes, oh, wow. And so you fell in love. And I mean, how old were you at that point? In the high school, like after high school, so before college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no it was after I took the bar exam, so I was 25. Okay, okay. Yeah, no wait, is that right? No, what is the math? 23, 24, whatever? Anyway, early 20s, yeah, and we did the long distance things for a couple of years, and my exchange family. So I'm in Stuttgart, my exchange family is in the Stuttgart area, so I see them all the time.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, wow. So that brings up another interesting question. So you kind of came here at the start of your career. You'd passed the bar. Yeah, tell me about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I actually stayed in the US and practiced law for several years and then did the long distance relationship thing, and then there was a point where, well, one of us needs to move, and who is the one who's going to do it? And it was me. So I came to Germany, so we weren't married yet. So I came as a student and I studied in Frankfurt for a master's in law German law- yeah, no no, it's finance. It's like European finance law.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I was on a student visa and then I got hired by a law firm in Frankfurt and so I worked there as a lawyer for a couple of years. Okay, I've had almost all the visas, like I've been a student, I've been like an employee, I've been a spouse, I'm on a parent visa. Now I could probably do freelancer now. So I've made the rounds.
Speaker 1:Okay, wait, there's a lot in there, so I have other questions lined up. But so then I'm guessing you kind of had an advantage because with all this exchanging student exchanging exchanges, you probably had pretty good German and also to study, am I right, you're?
Speaker 2:laughing, probably in the eighth grade was the best my German ever got. Okay, yeah, because. So when I let's say, for example, when I studied in Frankfurt, that was in English.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, the curse of the English speaker. Yes, everything's in English.
Speaker 2:When I worked, the advantage was that I spoke in English and people wanted me to support them. Right with that. And now it's the same. So, even though I'm sitting here with you know, lots of people around me, all of the clients I work with I work in English. So I'm working with people over the world and it's just sort of a repeat of the same point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I feel that that was my experience too. Just quick funny side note In seventh grade I had this teacher that was really ambitious and had us learn foreign languages before you had to in high school, or at least just dabble in them. And I remember picking German and then say why would I ever bother with this language? I'm never going to use it. I switched over to Spanish, which I can speak nothing of anymore, but anyway, so good to hear that your German topped out at eighth grade anymore. But anyway, so good to hear that you're German top down at eighth grade. Okay, so your background is a lawyer and you now run a business called the Inner Advocate. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm going to go on a little detour and then I'll come back to it. So I say that I ended up in Germany, but then my husband started taking expat assignments so we moved around the world a couple of times. So I actually moved here to Germany, this time from Canada. So in all of those moves it made it very difficult for me to work as a lawyer, because either it was really difficult to just work as a lawyer because of all the licensing requirements, or we would move in such a short time frame that to find a job I would then have to like quit after I just found a job, so it made it very difficult, so I needed to.
Speaker 2:For me, I wanted to find something that made use of my background but wasn't being a lawyer. So what would that be? I mean, there are many things, of course, right, but also realizing this is pre-pandemic thinking like what is going to make sense here? And coaching was? Somebody suggested it to me and I was like, oh well, I'll check that out. And that is how I ended up in sort of, I would say, a profession that now feels very saturated. Feels very saturated, yeah. But having said that, though, being in the lawyer niche, so I coach lawyers not all the time but some of the time and also supervised lawyer coaches, but not only lawyer coaches, but having that sort of background, clear thread in the work is a distinction, because according to my unofficial count, maybe there's like four or 5,000 lawyer coaches Really Uh-huh, but maybe I don't know what you face, if that means a lot or a little bit, but there's only a true handful of ones who do it full time.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, I thought that was a lot. I'm surprised that there are some. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but there are millions and millions of lawyers, right?
Speaker 1:Right, also, yeah, yeah, there aren't enough. Ok, just really. So so it's it's a very small space to to, to be, to be working in world. They're all over. So, okay, that's interesting. So you, I noticed on your site so you have kind of a funnel on the homepage so you have, like coaching for lawyers and then other types of coaching. What are the differences between coaching those two different groups and like for the lawyers? Is it that you get like the individual issues?
Speaker 2:they deal with? Or? Yeah, it's a good question, because this is one thing. When I work, supervise lawyer coaches and just say even coaches who, who come from different professional backgrounds, what is it that we're really doing in coaching versus? How do we market ourselves, marketing ourselves, we tend to rely on our backgrounds because people like to buy somebody who they feel like understands their situation. In coaching it doesn't actually matter, not in a pure form of coaching, because it's better when you don't know somebody's background or have the context, because then you don't get lost in their story or you don't find yourself colluding with. Oh yeah, the legal profession is really toxic, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:OK, so another lawyer will buy into that, whereas somebody on the outside will be like, oh well, why is that? And that's probably better coaching, because it forces you to rethink the frame that you have about whatever is your challenge.
Speaker 1:Interesting, interesting. I don't know enough about coaching only to know I would not be a good coach to know that. Ok, but wait, let me just back up. So you don't coach lawyers, you coach coaches. Who coach lawyers? I?
Speaker 2:coach lawyers directly, okay, and then I supervise lawyer coaches, so it's not the same. For somebody outside of the profession it can feel very similar because it's okay, you're just looking at yourself alongside your work or your challenge, but there are different sort of modalities or approaches in each one, so I can see that it can get confusing here. But the point is lawyers, lawyer coaches, and then I also mentor coach, which is a whole nother like thread in the coaching industry. That's like we don't need to go on that path, but I think of it like a three legged stool. Those are the three different lines of services and for people who know what they are or what they're looking for, I can say okay, so you're looking for this, or it's more like this in any way than I just deliver.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when you came up with this idea, how did you? How did you? Okay, I totally understand. You needed basically a portable business that you could do anywhere. So how did you stand it up, like what did you do?
Speaker 2:Uh, I got a computer and I hired an accountant. Um, which is is a little bit ironic, because before I was a lawyer I was an accountant. Oh wow, so I. But I knew right away. I was like, uh, if this is going to work, I need to not not be trying to do all of the things, because I know I will try. So I hired an accountant. So that's why, like in the group that we share, I can never answer questions about filing taxes directly myself, because I just put that away. So I got a computer, got an accountant.
Speaker 2:I did fall into a number of the traps that I think beginning entrepreneurs fall into, like I need to have a website first. I think websites are important, but like to do that first before you even know what you're selling. I also trademarked my name, which, as a lawyer, I used to do trademarks. At a certain point in my work I was like, of course I need to do that. I didn't need to do that, but I told myself those things because they were felt like easy wins, interesting, getting started, but also very costly. You know, right, doing things that you don't necessarily need um can can get in the way of of feeling successful or finding progress in the work so so what would you have like looking back?
Speaker 1:I sort of say this for the end, but for this particular thing, what would you have done instead? I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure, because there was also something there. As a service, I think that probably being a service provider is a bit different than selling a product. So as a service provider, I mean a lot of ways you are the service Right and that was my way of propping myself up with some kind of confidence and knowledge to fill the gap until I felt like, yes, what I'm selling is valuable and important for the world. So I did that to fill the void. Probably could have done some more work on myself about why do I need to do those things when I can just sell the service right. But I did it backwards and, yeah, I can see that I did that.
Speaker 2:Would, I do that again? Probably not, but if I know myself yeah, I can see that I did that Would I do that again? I'm probably not, but if I know myself well, I would.
Speaker 1:But so I mean what? What seems implicit in that response to is that there are probably things you could have done, like working your network and stuff like that. So which leads to my next question, which is okay, you have this business. How did you know? You had your computer, you had your trademark, you had your accountant. How did people start finding you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's two streams to this. One is I work I do a little bit of work on a coaching platform, which coaches out there will know. Oh yeah, okay, there's like a couple of key platforms that people can work on among many, and I do some work there.
Speaker 2:So this was already like a steady base income for me from the beginning and I still keep that because I consider it my I'm going to call it my coaching playground, because I get a lot of people there who aren't lawyers, and so it's my way of of, um, let's say, getting more variety in the in the work, as in who comes and what are the questions that they bring, and also a reality check on myself, because I know for myself, if I only work with lawyers, I will think that the whole world is like that Okay, so it creates balance in the work for me. So that's one one, let's say, point. And where do I get people? So where else do I get people Right? Linkedin. I post every day on LinkedIn and I get very little likes on my post, but I get a lot of people who write me.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the whole notion that likes are an indication of business success or whatever, it just doesn't actually play out in my world. So some people come from there. I also have three Facebook groups, which I know we're going to get to here in a minute, but I have three different ones that I founded within the same year because I saw opportunities for places either I would like to be in just because I like, oh, I feel like I need that community, or places where I thought, well, this might be a possible business opportunity, so I'm just going to seed it and see what happens. So so there's three different ones. One is the Women Expert Entrepreneurs, which is where we met, I also founded and now co-lead International Women Lawyers. And then I have the networking group. That's just lawyer coaches. Okay, wow, oh yeah, you can start to see that, oh wait, that might be your ideal client in that group or in that group, and that's where some of the people come from too.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to quickly back up to the point about not getting likes on your posts. I think, also in a profession like yours, people don't want to out themselves. That's right. I actually I have done quite a few coaching websites and in some cases, like where somebody specializes in, like people that want to leave their jobs, like they're not going to be advertising that on LinkedIn. So it's just kind of interesting how some professions, yeah, and totally lots going on in the DMs a lot of the time, yeah, and yeah, you know, maybe your goal is not to be an influencer on LinkedIn. You know that's not how you're doing things. So, okay. So all the Facebook groups and, yeah, let's talk about women expat entrepreneurs, so that is a within it. That is a Germany focused group, what? Ok, you talked about a little bit, but what made you? You co-founded it correct and what was the impetus for that?
Speaker 2:So, when I decided to set up my business. So this was pre pandemic. I have a handful of friends here and only one of them has her own business. And I felt like I was pestering her with a lot of questions, because that's what friends do, Right? But then I thought, oh, I would really like to keep this friendship. And I said to her I said, oh, do you want to start this group with me? I guess we still need you to answer questions, but to kind of spread the love, if you will. And she was like, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:And that was it. Wow, this was pre-pandemic. You said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so 2000,. Or maybe it was in the pandemic, the beginning of the pandemic. I'm just thinking out loud because so before this group I was not on Facebook. Okay, I didn't know anything about Facebook and everybody kept. Other people would be like, just why don't you just ask on Facebook? And then I would. You know. I finally joined and I was like, oh, the groups here don't feel like the right place for me. Like I just had this feeling like this isn't where I want to be asking my questions. So, between the friend point and like, oh well, maybe we just start our own group. That's, that's how it came about. And because the pandemic was the way it was, everybody was suddenly online.
Speaker 2:I know you're going to say so. How did the group grow? That was the beginning of it, because you know people's on, people are online looking for whatever. So, um, that's it though. I mean it was that simple. We just sort of started out and we're like, well, let's see what happens but it is great, I feel.
Speaker 1:So what it's like? 7 000 people?
Speaker 2:now no, no, we're more like, I think, three closer to three, okay.
Speaker 1:Three thousand, okay, still a lot, yeah, and but I feel like lately it's just gotten a lot bigger than it was initially. Am I wrong in that perception? I feel like every time I go back in there it's like whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the beginning, and I can compare it across the other groups. This is, I mean, my perception, right, I don't know what's actually a fact versus what I'm just noticing actually a fact versus what I'm just noticing. So, in the beginning, in a smaller group, well, first, there's an algorithm, point, I think. So, as the group gets bigger, it feels like Facebook suggests it more. Okay, so that's one point I also think. Because it's bigger, there's a lot of activity in it. Yeah, so it also helps the algorithm.
Speaker 2:That's what I tell myself because, I've got these other groups that aren't as big and they don't have as many people joining Right Could be that it's just a more interesting group topic to join as opposed to the other ones. It could be that I could even just use myself In the beginning of these groups. I wouldn't say, say I trolled, but I'm going to use that word, trolled other groups, and when people would post up that I thought, oh well, that fits with that group, I'll just mention that group and and it would bring people over. So the person who posts would come and then anybody else who read it would come right okay, but I don't do that.
Speaker 2:I don't do that anymore because the groups are so big that I'm just like it's enough for me, Like I don't need to spend my life like that. So, yes, this group is growing, I mean regularly and quickly. And and there are a number of people who aren't from Germany in the group and we don't really we don't exclude them. I mean, they have to be women, they have to be expats and they have to be entrepreneurs. At least that's what we're aiming okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's not just in germany it isn't, but the large portion of people are.
Speaker 2:When they, you know, they write, we put where are you in germany? And people put, most of the people are, so it's not that there's like it's kind of a place, um, but there are some people in there who who aren't, and and. And the reason why we're open about it is because you know why people want to be in a group can have various reasons, like one might be they just wish to move abroad and to be in that space with what that's like and it's sort of maybe testing. Is this for me? Is that what I want to do? Or they know they're going to move abroad, but they're not abroad yet. For me, is that what I want to do? Or where they know they're going to move abroad, but they're not abroad yet. Or they just like the nature of the group because you know you're on Facebook, like some groups are just not really very fun to be in, honestly. So the mood is different and that's refreshing. So that's my thinking.
Speaker 1:Is it a lot to manage?
Speaker 2:Yeah, manage. Yeah, it's like having a child. You give birth and at the beginning you're like what have I done and how do I do this? And then, with time it probably does become more difficult and complicated, but you don't realize it because you've been there since the beginning. And it's the same with having multiple children. You don't tend to get them all at once, they come in stages, so you just grow into the work that's around it. And, as far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm still enjoying it, I'm not going to give my babies away.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you have other leaders, leaders it's not just you, which also, I'm sure, right, makes it easier. Um, I don't lead any online groups, but I would. I think one of the concerns I would have is just like you get like a person in there who's maybe a problem person yeah, and that I I haven't experienced that happening, but have you had any like situations like that that you've had to deal with?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, oh yeah, in the beginning, because we were still learning how it worked and how we wanted to be, we were really cautious and gave people warnings and had conversations and and we noticed that most people didn't really care if they, if they were bringing, let's say, bad energy or criticizing people a lot or tearing down or whatever. They didn't actually want to have a conversation about how to you know how to do differently in a group. So, as time has passed, you know, if a spam message pops up which we've had lately the whole Taylor Swift ticket thing I just just delete the message and delete the person and that's it. There's no, there's no conversation.
Speaker 1:Wait, what is this Cause? I've seen this in a new cause. There's another group, Women Entrepreneurs in Munich, and the person who is a leader of that group I saw just something flip across, Like I've had to block this person in the spam. What is this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, um, I guess, when, when? If I'm not following Taylor Swift that closely, but she has been here or is coming, and so there are a lot of scammers out claiming they have tickets that they want to resell, and and if you watch the group so I'm in a lot of a lot of groups it's the same message that's cut and paste, but it's with different people, so you can tell that it's like, oh, this isn't real. And even if it is real, like I mean, is that what we're doing here?
Speaker 1:I'm not really sure this isn't your business right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah. So just delete and block and then move on. And I haven't had a single person who's ever been deleted and blocked come back to me and ask me why. That would be a sign to me that, oh, okay, maybe this person hasn't gotten the message or whatever, but nobody's ever come back. So I think, okay, it is what it is.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is somebody who joins the group under false pretenses and then does their scam. Okay, wow, that's a sign that you've arrived. There's like a whole industry around reselling your tickets falsely. Wow, I mean not that anybody needs to talk about how famous and amazing Taylor Swift is like earthquakes and moving economies and stuff. Okay, so do you have any like? Okay, there's a lot of stuff. I mentioned the Women Entrepreneurs in Munich and they actually since that was a more localized group they started right, they had a meetup, like I want to say, end of january 2019, like right before the pandemic, and then it all went online. And then I but they had been planning to have kind of more, you know, offline, in real life stuff. Is that something you think about at all?
Speaker 2:in in the beginning. We also had these thoughts like we would have loved, or we have loved at the beginning and later talked about doing sort of a traveling conference kind of thing that helps people come together and network and maybe some learning and support and so on. And we had a leadership team at one point and we talked about doing it. And I think, at least in this group and the people who I know, because everybody is working on their businesses so hard to add that point. It stretches people too much and it takes away from their business goals and their personal lives and so on. So the dream, I think, still sits there.
Speaker 2:But would we ever execute on it? I don't anticipate that we will in the near future. And it also brings together the question of is this a group that could be monetized? And we've talked about that before. Do we do things where we make money? Well, does any of us want to make that our business? Because then it becomes a bank account and it's sort of like not really, at least not so far. So we're still kind of doing its own thing as opposed to being directed by anybody in a particular direction at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it can be really tough with groups on. For one thing, getting people out of the house like the conversion rate, even if people want to, I think is very effortful. And there's another big group here, I think it's called Munich International Women. It's a huge group and they organize breakfast and stuff. It's a nice group and I know the woman, one of the women who leads it and it is so complicated. She's like well, we would have to be a Verein or start a business, like the minute.
Speaker 1:Even if you want to ask people for small dues to just cover the, it's a lot of work to organize those things. Even run a Facebook group, organize a brunch for 20 people, it takes time. Send out a newsletter, but even that just gets complicated because, okay, does it go to your the? You know the person who's leading it. If they have a business, it's like then they got to make invoices for all these people. I wish there was a easier way, but it does start getting complicated very fast and it strikes me as being a little bit unfortunate Because even if you say like, okay, we're not going to try to get rich doing this, we just want to have this robust community organization, you can't really get compensated for that time, unless you turn it into a full business and then you've got to like that has expenses. It's this kind of, or like catch 22.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and as you say that, it reminds me I'm becoming more familiar with that. There are people who are doing the networking thing in person as their business. So what does that mean? Right, so their business is that they create physical networking opportunities for people, and to go to that you pay. Okay, so it's filling a void. But is it filling the void that we want? It's filling the void of that person's ideas, right, so there's something there.
Speaker 1:That still seems like a non-lucrative, very difficult business to me, unless, I mean, if you're somebody who has like this super I'm assuming like a super elite, super big network, I mean, you're just going to be a really busy person, I think, getting the space, charging people, yeah, what do I know? Anybody out there who has like a super successful in-person networking business? Give me a shout. I want to have you on the podcast. But I am always I'm increasingly grateful to people that do put on events because it's a lot of work and and they are great.
Speaker 1:To go to um I just went to uh, last month this is june of 2024 to the I am expat fair and it was great and this was more of like a messa, like a trade fair. I mean there were a lot of vendors there. You know the typical things you expect, like financial planning and taxes and stuff, but I met a lot of people. Olivia from the group was there. I went to her talk and you know I am my target market, so it was great. To some of the, some of the services, I was like, oh good, I can take care of my I don't want to talk about like my back US taxes, but it was just, it was really nice to meet a lot of people, but it was an event. I mean, they spent you know big bucks on that. It was in this massive hotel and they had people running it. So that is like a whole order of magnitude and I am expat media it's like this big company. So it's not just you know, a community effort. So I think that's probably the level you've got to have things to really make it do that Okay.
Speaker 1:So I actually want to go back to one thing you said earlier. You said you're on a parent visa. Yes, yes, I would assume. I mean, it's kind of known on my business and if you don't want to talk about it, I'll cut it out. But don't at this point. Don't you have an unbefristet Aufenthaltserlaubnis? I don't even know what that is. What is that? A green card, basically a green card in Germany. How can you? You've been like here a zillion times and studied how do you not have one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so somewhere, I don't know, it must have been when we moved, this time because I had a child Instead of making me a spouse visa, they made me a parent visa, because then it wasn't dependent on whether I was married. So if something happened there, like the kids can't divorce me but the husband can, okay, so I get to stay because my kids are German citizens, right? So there's a chance to help me In terms of a greater visa, or let's say, like a more established visa.
Speaker 2:I have never looked into that Because in my mind we've moved so many times in the past that there's a chance that we will again. Many times in the past, that there's a chance that we will again. Ah okay, and to qualify for that right, I know I would have to do the German language stuff and so on, and I don't.
Speaker 1:I actually for that. I don't think you do Like. I got mine working a zillion years ago. At that time, if you've been working for five years you could just automatically get it and there was no test, there was no nothing. I mean, now I'm going to try, you know, when I have the time to dedicate to it. I do want to get citizenship now that you don't have to give up your other one and then you do have to do a language test. So I'll have to do all that. But I think from what I hear, it's like somewhat easy to pass. But usually I just thought, if you study here or you've been here a certain amount of time and working or married, you could you just like, instead of having to renew visas all the time, you just need the residence permit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I hear what you're saying, that there is a lot of possibility there. And I'm really is anybody listening? I'm really lazy. I'm just cool going in every three years and being like, hey, I'm still here, like, is it good, we're good, good, and then I get my little thing or whatever, and then I I go out.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, and that's because I like, not because with the residence permit, like, I haven't done that kind of paperwork in years yeah, because it's okay, but that doesn't make sense for your life. Because you might, because the thing is with that, if you leave, I think, for longer than six months, it can be it can lapse. So maybe a visa makes more sense, anyway. So okay.
Speaker 2:Anyway, so okay, I guess we a big long list of things I would say, but probably the thing that that stands out the most for me is notice the thing in your business or about your life that irritates you, and that's where the work is that you need to do. So, for example, for me, I went through a phase where I was sending paper at paper contracts through email and I was booking with people like I would be in a conversation, like okay, so when's the next time we're going to talk and we get out our calendars? And it would take this five minutes of like back and forth and it really annoyed me. And I also got feedback. I'm like they're like quit sending me paper contracts, like I don't even know how to sign that, like am I supposed to take a picture of it? What are we doing here? And I really wasn't ready to do like customer relationship management software. I just the business wasn't at that size, but I was so irritated that I decided to jump into it anyway and my life vastly improved.
Speaker 2:It was a painful experience, but it vastly improved, and it was about noticing for myself what did I need to change about how I worked in order to like, let's say, grow my business and, to add to that point, finding a way to be constantly uncomfortable and sustainable, like not trying to jump off the cliff, not trying to, like do the big big thing in the business that like, oh, that's super high risk, that's not, I'm not ready for that. But where are the opportunities in in the business where you can grow and develop yourself alongside what you're offering and stay with the discomfort of maybe you're doing it before you feel ready, because you may never be ready if you keep waiting?
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's great advice. So the sweet spot between those two things, like kind of managing the tension between yeah, okay, that is great advice. And, if I may, can we get a little bit nerdy on your CRM? I love tool talk. So what, what, what was a tool you started using?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I looked into a number of them because I write and connected in the lawyer coach world and that was my idea of like what are lawyers expecting to see? Um uh, and what are my like clients as lawyer coaches using? And what are my like clients as lawyer coaches using? And in my research, the person who I respected the most and what I found like this is how I think it should be done in my mind was using the tool coach accountable.
Speaker 2:She since left it because she found it to be too expensive. I don't know what she's doing now she's doing something else but I stayed with it and I love it. I love it because all of the contracts, gdpr, it's all there. The booking, it's integrated with my calendar, it's there. There's a private workspace for my clients, so before they'd have to, you know, find the emails and who said what, when and all this stuff, and it's all contained. I can share exercises, readings or whatever. We can chat back and forth and it's in like a stream as opposed to again searching for emails. I absolutely love it and I agree that it's a bit expensive and I just put that into the price of the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know it's also expensive. A private secretary, thank you, thank you, that's right. I really can't. I'm just going to add on to this.
Speaker 1:I just went through a whole process of completely redoing my tech stack and there is nothing like a bad tool to just really hobble your business and there's nothing like the right tool to accelerate. And I have been wrestling with CRMs. It's also tricky because, you know, in Europe, payment processors and all that stuff, like I was looking at one called Bonsai Half the time I really believe it. I believe like you've just got to test a tool. The best tool is the one that you'll use. And so I'd be like, oh, this is nice, this is working. And then you get to some point where it's like, okay, I want this paid meeting and oh, sorry, we don't support that in the EU or whatever. So, but I finally found one and I'm going to plug it. This is my unofficial sponsor because I'm an affiliate and I'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 1:But I found one called Moxie. That is great and it's designed for freelancers. So it's the same deal it's got. You know the scheduling. I can set up client portals. It takes, it does all the payment processors for Europe. It's just, it's great, I love it and I feel like I like the last six months that I was on that other, I just felt like it was just I was kind of like not pushing some of my offers because I just didn't want to deal with the tool and I couldn't make changes and I was going to break, and I'm pretty technical. So yeah, just three cheers for good tools and as you're talking.
Speaker 1:I have a client, a retainer client, and she, she. I know that there I've seen these tools before that are specific for coaches and I was trying to remember the name of one of them. Is this a pretty major one?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Okay, okay, because I've seen.
Speaker 1:I've seen more than, or I feel like I've seen a couple and I was thinking, you know she probably because right now she's like using Acuity, but this and I'm like she probably could use one of these coaching CRMs, that would probably be better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because then I'm Go ahead and I think also just from a coaching standpoint, right where where we well, okay, I do peer coaching and and pure supervision like I don't do a lot of trainings and I don't do consulting and all this other stuff so to be able to survive on that work and to have, let's say, premium paying clients, I think this is a minimum for that, because you need to be able to show the value of the work from beginning to end and to hold them in that. In that very, it can be very challenging work for people. So how do you do that? And if you're a mess on your side, like that just gets in the way of of the work and and I think it's a yeah minimum- yeah, yeah, table stakes All right.
Speaker 1:Well, laura, thanks a lot for coming on, and where can people find you?
Speaker 2:no-transcript seed is planted Right, and it's the same for other people Like, oh, maybe in it right now. You're like, well, I don't need a coach. Or I am a coach, but I don't need a supervisor. Or I don't even know what that is. Or or a mentor coach, not right now, yeah, but at some point you might, yeah. And to expand your network to include the possibilities means, when the time comes, you're not scrambling around or or, which is something that I suggest to people not to do. Even though I believe that referral business is important for all of us in the service world, it is still important to do your own research because, just because your best friend or your neighbor had a great experience, especially in coaching, doesn't mean that that will work for you, correct, correct.
Speaker 2:So to have you know, let's say, more cards on the table than just what your neighbor suggested, or you know what your colleague at work thinks is great to also have, okay. So I also know in my network these other people who do, I feel like is the right person for what I want to do and that is what I am going to wave my flag on as a final point.
Speaker 1:Okay, another good piece of advice to end on. And lastly, can you just say the name of the Facebook group again, yes, the expat one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, women Expat Entrepreneurs Empowered Germany.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, laura, thanks for coming on, and I will. I'll see you on LinkedIn. Okay, thank you Bye-bye. Thanks for listening. You can find this episode and all other episodes of the Germany Expat Business Show at my website at wwwEleanorMeierhofercom slash podcast. That's wwwE-L-E-A-N-O-R-M-A-Y-R-H-O-F-E-Rcom slash podcast. See you next time.