The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
From Montreal to Frankfurt (and an E-Residency Hack) with Afshan Shamani
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Afshan Samani's journey from Iran to becoming the CEO and co-founder of PinoSell is a masterclass in resilience and innovation. After navigating cultural challenges and personal setbacks, including a broken engagement during her PhD in Canada, Afshan pivoted from academia to a dynamic career in tech and startups. Her relentless pursuit of new opportunities led her to Rocket Internet and eventually to the creation of PinoSell, a company inspired by the burgeoning potential of social media selling. Through her story, Afshan provides a fascinating look at how personal perseverance can drive professional success.
From identifying an unexpected e-commerce trend in the Middle East and Africa to launching a platform that transforms Instagram feeds into shoppable storefronts, Afshan's insights are invaluable for anyone interested in the future of retail and entrepreneurship. She shares her experiences working on a pilot project with L'Oreal and explores how her platform empowers micro-businesses to harness the power of social media effectively. With examples like a Munich-based cake business and a California-based letterpress hobbyist, Afshan demonstrates the platform's versatility and its potential to revolutionize how small businesses connect with their customers.
For those intrigued by the intricacies of setting up a business in Europe, Afshan's discussion of the logistical and financial hurdles in Germany, compared to the advantages of Estonia's e-residency program, offers eye-opening insights. Her experiences highlight the broader trends and challenges within the European startup ecosystem, including the increasing focus on innovation and international collaboration. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner, there's much to learn from Afshan's experiences and the ever-evolving landscape of startups and investment in Europe.
[👆The above description was spit out by hosting AI — We're a two woman operation here! Human show notes on the website.]
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
Starting or running a business in Germany as a foreigner? Already running an online business in Germany as an expat? Wanting to grow your German-based business? Working as a freelancer in Germany? You'll love my guide with over 30 resources for expat business owners in Germany.
Hi, I'm Eleanor Meyerhofer, a native Californian designer and digital strategist. In October of 1999, a few years after graduating from design school, I flew from San Francisco to Munich with a fistful of Deutschmarks, a dial-up connection and an extremely vague plan. Twenty-plus years later, after a 10-year stint at a global agency freelancing and launching two online businesses, I'm still here. Now I'm talking to other expat business owners to share knowledge, stories and inspiration for other non-Germans running businesses in Germany. I am here and I am talking to Afshan Samani, and I'm going to kick off with a question I ask everybody, which is who are you? Where are you from? What is the two-minute story of how you ended up in Germany? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So my name is Afshan Samani and I'm a CEO and co-founder at PinoSell. This story for me to come to Germany was kind of like a comeback to Europe for me. I'm Canadian but I also am originally Iranian, and so I was like 23 something when I left the country, and the first country that I left that I went was Sweden and I started my master's degree in Chalmers and then I went to Tuklarna and I started working there and it was one of my fantastic kind of experiences in my career and so on. It was the fastest growing company at the time in Europe and in Sweden. But at that time I was really passionate about cloud computing and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:That was still a new topic, but me being me, at that time I was not mature enough to understand that there are other ways also to learn things. I was thinking that I have to do my PhD to be able to learn that. So then the whole kind of thing for me was okay, now I have to get my PhD and so on. But at that time I also was in a relationship. I was in a relationship with a kind of a partner at the time and later ex-fiance, at the time that he was in Canada and things was very complicated this way and eventually we decided that, okay, I go to Canada and I get my PhD there. So, fast forward, I went to Canada for my PhD and it was a huge cultural shock for me. I was living in Sweden for some time and I didn't know that I'd really had become that Swedish.
Speaker 1:I mean Sweden and Canada are different countries, but I'm surprised there was so much culture shock.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah but I'm surprised there was so much culture shock. Okay, yeah, but I mean, swedes are a little bit like everything was. Sweden is extremely digitized and still Canada was like, yeah, a lot of things were different processes, towns in particular. I was just. I had a shock when I was coming from a European city to Toronto. It was a complete different architecture and it was remembering that the Swedes are a little bit conservative, to have small talks and talking to strangers.
Speaker 2:They don't like it that much. And then I was just walking by the river and then one Canadian lady came to me Wow, I love your coat, you look amazing. And I was just for a second. What just happened? But anyhow, I mean Canada and I started my program and so on, but life didn't actually happen the way I wished it to happen. Just a few weeks before our wedding, my fiance decided to broke up the engagement and he left to. He left to US, and it was just a few months after my arrival to Canada. So it was just boom at the beginning. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, that's life. And at that time I was actually in my PhD program and basically I realized in my second year that you know what? I'm not going to stay in academia, I definitely will go to industry and academia is I'm going to finish my PhD because I have to do it, but I'm not going to continue here. And I started working at the same time. So I had two startups. It was also a failed story there, so they didn't work out. Also a failed story there, so they didn't work out. And then I joined another startup which was the first kind of social e-learning platform that we were basically selling it to some universities and so on. I was there for four years and then Rocket Internet from Germany reached out and they wanted me for their operation in Middle East. So I became the chief product officer for their operation of marketplace in Middle East Once my mandate was done, and during this time I also married.
Speaker 1:And once my mandate was done, I actually when you were doing this like rocket, what was the?
Speaker 2:company called Rocket Rocket Internet. Rocket Internet is actually a venture capitalist in Germany. They are the owner of Zalando, as an example. Okay, got it. Yeah, exactly. So what they do is that they basically run different operations across the world for the business models that work somewhere else. So this is basically the way that it works.
Speaker 1:And when you were working for them, was that from Germany or from Canada?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. They wanted me in Middle East, so I actually had to go to oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I had to go to Middle East. I went to Dubai, I went to Iran and then so on. Okay so, and once my mandate was finished, I went back to Canada, this time also carrying a little bit of divorce story there. And then I went to, this time I went to montreal and I started working at essence. Essence is actually one of the leading companies in fashion, e-commerce, luxury and fantastic place. Great, great experience for me there, a great team, but at that time I was actually senior director of product management, but still, I was like I want. I was like I want to have my own business. I want to have my own business. And then we had an idea with a business partner of mine, and that's why I quit my job and I basically went back again for the idea that we had, which basically we were seeing it more suitable for Middle East.
Speaker 2:And during this time also again, good things also happens in life I met the love of my life and and basically he was german and we decided to to get married. That's a long story. That's how we got married, but maybe for another time. And then he wanted to to go to germany to stay next to his family and basically be there for them. And for me it was, wow, why not?
Speaker 2:I mean, majority of my bosses were German, I had a lot of German colleagues, I hired a lot of Germans, my best friends are German, my husband is German why not? What could go wrong? But yeah, that's basically how I ended up in Germany and at the beginning I was not really thinking that, what I want to do, and so on. The first year was a roller coaster for me in Germany with so many things that happened, and I'm happy that I'm sitting here right now and I'm saying that, okay, it's good that we passed them all. And then I started my companies. I started doing more research and getting some kind of original ideas and developing it, testing and discovery, while not knowing German and along the side of selecting German.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you are in Frankfurt, correct? Mm-hmm, okay, I am in Frankfurt. Yes, okay, so just help me again. That was a little longer than two minutes, but it's fine because there were a lot of drinks in there. Yes, exactly, and so you have been in frankfurt for how long now? It's like two years and a half now. Two years, and that's germany. Two, two and a half. Yeah, yeah, exactly, okay. So you started to talk a little bit about your company. I do want to ask a little bit like, since you kind of went on this journey Iran, sweden, canada, back to the Middle East, to Germany what did it feel like? I mean, so you kind of had this European background from your time in Sweden, yeah, did that help in Germany, or was like totally not related, totally different, or was it? Did it make it a little bit more of a soft landing?
Speaker 2:Well, to be honest. So I had the support from my husband. That was a much better support in a softer landing from my husband. That was a much better support in a softer landing. But I would say my experience in Sweden as much as yeah, I mean I love European cities, I love going and I mean the culture there is amazing. These are the things that I like, but I cannot say that, in particular, my experience in Sweden was a help for me in Germany per se. Okay, it's, yeah, it's, it's a complete, like a different culture, and I cannot say that okay, I carried something with me in Sweden that I could actually use in Germany.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, yeah, all right, so let's jump into you starting your company. So you started saying you were doing some research, like what prompted this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so everything started from the time that I was with Rocket Internet. So I came from Canada and all I knew was about e-commerce was Amazon, was Walmart, ebay, shopify. These were the things that I knew about e-commerce and when we were basically doing our marketplace operation. One of the biggest kind of milestones in a marketplace is that you have to basically have a lot of products, a lot of assortments per se, and in order to do that, there is a huge difference when it comes to the market in Middle Eastern and African market with, let's say, eastern market, with East Asia and so on, the supply side is extremely fragmented. So you go to China and then you will find a wholesaler and then they have these hectares and hectares of warehouses that they have products and they can actually bring it into your marketplace. It wasn't the case there and they can actually bring it into your marketplace. It wasn't the case there.
Speaker 2:So our mandate was to introduce as many suppliers, as many sellers as we could. So that was one of the challenges that we had and we were working on that, and then I was hearing from my team that somebody is saying that oh, I bought this from Instagram. And I was just ignoring it. At the beginning, I bought this from Telegram. And then I started realizing that this is happening a lot. So what's going on? And I started asking people what do you mean? You bought this from Instagram or you bought this from Telegram? And then they basically said, yeah, people are coming, they show their products, they have the service and so on, and it's so beautiful. And then we basically text them that we like whatever they do, we exchange bank accounts and they basically deliver the product for us. And I was so surprised. And you do that and you basically trust the person that's just selling over social media to you yeah, why not? They basically care a lot, and so on.
Speaker 2:I became curious and then I went to my current business partner and that time he was the ceo. I said, listen, we need to investigate what is happening. I, at least, I need to get some sense. Um, so we started basically looking at the logistic data from okay, the parses that are getting delivered, and it was shocking what we understood.
Speaker 2:The amount of transactions that was coming from these little, little little guys were seven times bigger than the entire e-commerce of the region. Oh, wow, it was shocking for us and because nobody was paying attention to them. Nobody even cared to study them them nobody even cared to study them. And so we said, yeah, we hit the jackpot here. I mean, they are extremely underserved and we are going to give them logistic, we are going to give them now traffic and whatever. I mean we are perfect for them. And we terribly failed in this operation. We tried to basically bring them on board, into, but it didn't work out for two primary reasons. One was that the commission, that Marketplace charges, was some of the entire kind of margin that they had, so they were not able to compete.
Speaker 2:And the second was that they were social sellers. They were the people that they wanted to talk to. People show off their product and they talk and so they were selling to the community. So in marketplace they didn't have that. So that became an idea and then we started basically investigating the region. We had actually a project with Karim Uber of the region and we basically did a study for UAE, kuwait, saudi, qatar, turkey and we noticed that, okay, it seems that the pattern is repeating everywhere. That became an idea for us and we started basically looking onto that.
Speaker 2:Back in the time I was still in Canada and then once we saw that, okay, there is an opportunity and we need to do that, we got the funding for it and we started the company. We started our company with series of suites of services for, like logistic, because logistic providers didn't even look at these little guys because they were saying, yeah, you guys are just so small, I don't want to basically look at you. So we became a kind of a hub here to connect all this kind of little ones and basically get the service for these people. We introduced pickup services and suits of services from catalog management, from payment, from store management, crm and so on, and we customized it and we tailored it for social media selling and the operation actually went well. We had 7x kind of year-over-year growth. We basically had more than 70 000 instagram sellers, and then in a few months ago we had also the conversations for series b investment. So it was actually good.
Speaker 2:But the point was that for me it wasn't possible anymore to be on daily day-to-day business because, okay, my husband is in germany and I I it was not possible for me and I also didn't want to repeat the long distance, to be honest.
Speaker 2:So then I came here and I had a hypothesis that, okay, this market is entirely different. The marketing channels are much bigger here, so we will see a different phenomenon here. But to my surprise, when I started digging a little bit, then I noticed that, oh my God, so the small businesses, micro businesses here in Europe, here in US, they basically struggle a lot to compete in digital space. Right now, majority of marketing channels are very much favored and as basically more towards people that have a large body of budget and body of people to work on it, and these people didn't have that and the only channel that was accessible for them to be able to work a little bit was social media, which they were trying it, but they didn't know how to sell over social media and that was what we actually have seen a lot in our previous company how do people sell over social media? So that became the idea for PinaSell.
Speaker 1:One question where do platforms like Etsy fit into all of this?
Speaker 2:Etsy actually is a very good example that how, over the time, it changed. At the beginning, it was a place for people that making like handmade products and so on, art and so on, but then it got bombarded with a lot of like, print and apply, with a lot of like. These big suppliers joined the game and started communication Exactly. So then you could actually see that a lot of people are no longer happy with Etsy. Yeah, yeah, and they all want to basically be able to grow in their social media and have their own community, but at the same time, they don't know how to. Okay.
Speaker 1:So tell me about your product yeah, like I'm five what it does.
Speaker 2:So, first of all, the product that we have is basically had two modules one is the instant shop and one is digital mentor and instant shop. What it does is basically, we see that a lot of people are already on social media and they don't have technical they are not like a technical guru or something. What we do, we collect social media content, we convert it into a we call it personal shop, that basically all the posts that you have can actually become shoppable if you want to, and you'll have your shop in less than three minutes. All the functions that you really need for selling over your communities, functions that you need to generate leads, functions that you need to create promotions and what you can actually need to update your shop Everything is tailored for selling over social media. So you will have it in less than three minutes.
Speaker 2:And then the other function that we have is the digital mentor, which basically provides daily actions on what you need to do to position yourself in social media and sell over social media. It includes content that you need to publish, it includes emails that you need to do, it includes campaigns that you need to run and also how you optimize your shop. So these two components we basically started it with Instant Shop, which got us into a kind of a pilot project with L'Oreal, because L'Oreal actually has a lot of Sorry.
Speaker 1:The Instashop, the Instagram commerce function.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. Basically it works similar to Instagram Shop, but for us, you don't need any Facebook business, you don't need anything. You just need your Instagram page to be public, okay, and then we collect all the information and your shop becomes a mirror of your Instagram feed. Okay, okay, yeah, exactly. And L'Oreal, as an example, saw an opportunity with this product because they had a lot of hairdressers and these hairdressers were selling L'Oreal's product in their stores and they were missing an opportunity because all of these hairdressers were so active in social media. So once they actually saw that, okay, there is something that can actually help them.
Speaker 2:So it was so difficult to say to a header start a Shopify store, start managing all of this kind of thing and add-ons and so on. It's difficult for them to do that. Woocommerce, forget about it. It's even more difficult. Oh, my God, yeah.
Speaker 2:So then they saw that they don't need content creation here, so they just can use the content that they have in instagram. So we got into a pilot project with them. But it also brings another benefit for them, in addition to a new sales channel for l'oreal. Also, these hairdressers, like are many of them have like 20 000 followers, 10 000, 30 000 and so on, and because it basically converts the post of the instagram to shoppable products, they have more motivation to create promotional content, so it becomes like a free marketing content for L'Oreal, as an example, and that's basically how we started.
Speaker 2:And then our digital mentor came after. When I saw that how much these micro-bus, micro businesses, solopreneurs they actually need support to position themselves, and at the beginning I started giving services for free, but I realized that, okay, I'm repeating myself. I go on this channel and just repeat myself. So how about creating a tool out of that which, basically this digital mentor, is still in our pipeline to be built, but right now we have the prototype and we are basically sharing it with few people and we collect people into our rating list for that okay, let me just like give you a couple of examples that to help me understand this.
Speaker 1:So there is a woman here in munich. I'll put it in the show notes Tasneem Cakes, I think, is her name.
Speaker 1:She makes amazing, amazing cakes, good big cakes like a mermaid's, all kinds of stuff. Yes, it wasn't, and it's exactly like you said. When I discovered her, you know, I dm'd her and said like I need, you know, 30 cupcakes and my exactly here's day. So it's always like everybody's clothes, it's always a big hassle. So I was like I need all these cupcakes and she just says yes, and either her husband will drop them off at our apartment or I send my husband to pick them up, so she she could in theory, and her feed is just these beautiful cakes. You don't really need it. You could just in three minutes turn that into some kind of shop, exactly, even though, like a lot of it is in-person pickup and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:That's okay. I mean and that's a platform is basically supporting selling services selling physical products or selling digital objects, so it doesn't matter for us. And in particular, in the case that you have, which basically is a service that they're delivering to you, there is a QR code that gets generated. When they come and then give it to you, you show them the QR code, they scan it and the service is getting delivered. So it basically supports that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. And then the other thing that I think is interesting about this and this is not a Germany-based example, but it's my father is that I think people selling on these platforms. I used to actually be kind of active, I used to have an e-commerce store I won't go into that long story but and I was active in Etsy for a while but my dad and he's in California. He sells letterpress printer and he sells. It's a hobby. He calls it his e-tirement. He sells like hot metal type and there are a lot of hobby printers all over the world.
Speaker 1:This was years ago, but I made him a new website and he sells on eBay and this is his comfort zone. Cause I was, you know, dad, you could really kind of install a whole e-commerce thing and he just didn't. It was like I like it, I understand this, this is my way, and I was like, okay, it's probably better, like no optimizations I could make or, you know, are gonna make everything worse for him. That's how he sells. I think, if I understand, your product kind of meets people where they are, if that's like their jam, and they like to be on whatever Instagram. Is it only Instagram or is it TikTok Right now?
Speaker 2:we basically are focusing on Instagram, but for us, in later stages, we are looking into LinkedIn as well as the TikTok. Oh, linkedin, really, yeah. So we see some coaches are actually coming and they get interested, especially by looking at our prototype. So we see that there is actually a line that we can customize for LinkedIn, for consultants and coaches, so that they create their courses, their services and so on, but our digital mentor actually helps them to. Okay, now for LinkedIn. If you want to do that, you need to develop these strategies for your content and so on. However, that is different strategy and a different product.
Speaker 2:That we do, but then that's back to your question. We see that people are coming and they're asking questions, so this is for me a little bit kind of understanding that. Okay, it seems that we are touching something.
Speaker 1:Okay, but the main gist is that the person doesn't have to like stand up their whole own e-commerce or join a marketplace.
Speaker 2:They can just take what they already have and sell. Yeah, exactly, okay, exactly, and our digital mentor helps them to do that. How to sell it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's not like you just throw up your products and people start buying, Exactly In case you didn't say what is the name of this product.
Speaker 2:So the company is PinoCell and it has two products it has Instant Shop and it has Digital Mentor. So Instant Shop is available for public, but Digital Mentor, no at the moment.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's in the works, okay for public, but just on my channel at the moment. Okay, that's in in the works. Okay, what I want to talk about? So you and I met at what was it called expat finn con. Yeah, I expect finn con something like that yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:no, it really is just a great example of just show up to places and start chatting. And then we got into a really interesting conversation. Sitting in the next table, you heard me talk and you're like you know, and like, well, come over here, let's talk. And that's how we got talking. And you were telling me about your Estonian e-resident business. Exactly, this is going to be interesting to all of us who have had the fun experience of setting up a Germany business. So why don't you talk a little bit about what that is and what your experience is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, remember I told you that, okay, germany was a roller coaster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a business in Germany also was one of them.
Speaker 2:When I started here, with the help of a friend also, we basically established a gambaha and we got the entity and using that entity we were trying to basically establish the business, create business accounts and bank accounts and so on and then establish the whole thing At a time. So it seemed that some of the banks were not comfortable with newly immigrants and so on and it was taking a whole kind of cycle for us to even start an account here, to have our business here, and it was just going to a rabbit hole and we really wanted to have the business running. So, long story short, we were not able at that time, especially that I was new in Germany, I didn't have a history in Germany and so on. At that time we were not able to start the business and I had to basically have a European entity business. I had actually one entity in the US that I could actually work with, but for European companies they needed European entity to work with, so I had to have something in here.
Speaker 1:And by entity you entity like a gmbh or or something.
Speaker 2:Is it just? What do they have in?
Speaker 1:the uk limited some some exactly exactly that.
Speaker 2:so we we needed to have those, and then they didn't accept our gmbh in germany, so we had to also again shut it down and it was just a matter of like a couple of thousand euros.
Speaker 2:We just completely wasted, and time was an asset. So I heard about a friend of mine that he did actually something in estonia. So I did actually check in and I realized the whole process seems to be easy. I immediately applied for something that they actually call it e-residency. It's not like real physical residency in estonia, but it's a process that they basically review who you are, what you really want to do, and give you an identity within Estonian state and basically using that electronic identity that you get. So the e-residency that you get, you are allowed to open companies in Estonia a variety of different companies, yes, and the process for me to get my e-residency I think it took like six weeks or something and you pick up your e-residency card and after that, in under a week, I was able to have my company running. I have my bank account running, everything was ready, all the documents and everything was ready, and the process was completely digital.
Speaker 2:I even didn't need to put my feet in estonia, even for banks, even for banks, and so we got the entity and that's why how we actually could manage the contract with our partner in poland, with l'oreal and the. The process was extremely startup friendly. So, for instance, regulations there are in favor of Laboke startups that's just started. They don't have like that much attraction, so let's not to bother them a lot with taxing. So, even so, I think in the range was about 40,000.
Speaker 2:So if your startup is actually generating less than 40,000 euro, you're not obliged for having a VAT Exactly, or supporting a lot of supports. And if your company is making profit and you're reinvesting it in your country, you are not paying taxes on that. So you're only paying taxes for the dividends that you actually have for the company services. All are available for doing all your taxes and super easy. I couldn't believe that. But then I was actually putting it in comparison with germany and for a game. But how you even need to, how much you need to pay for the notary, how much you need to basically go on quarterly basis, at least 35 000 euros just to have a gambi heart.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's basically it is possible that you basically use. There are actually few ways that you can even do it with less money, but it's still a capital of the company. For people that have the money, then they can actually use that money for the work of the company. But yes, they, you need to have it. But I was actually talking to a friend of mine in in the same expat finco. He was sharing that it's possible also to use a particular policy that they have I'm not an, so don't take my word for that. He was actually saying that it's possible to start it with like two, three, three thousand euros as a gambit, but then, whenever that you actually get the revenue, you need to put it back again and make sure that, ok, you are fulfilling the necessary capital for the company. But again, this is something that you need to check with them. But, yeah, you need to have a bigger capital. But even for me, for instance, my capital was very low when I started a company in Estonia, so from that angle also, they were supporting it.
Speaker 1:And while you have this, you don't have to deal with the German finance or tax authorities at all.
Speaker 2:So that's another thing For the Estonians. So it's basically it's absolutely okay. But Estonia is part of European Union and it's accepted. However, when it comes to Germany, as a German you have to, we're reporting everything, everything there, and for the companies that become profitable then it becomes a challenge if they are not proving that they have residence as an executive or something like that there. But for me, it's not the point at this point. So because we are basically still at the earliest stages, later on we are going to bring our people to offices in Estonia, so that's not a problem. So for me it was a very good, easy to start solution.
Speaker 1:And you'll cross all that bridge when you get to it Exactly, Okay, okay, Wow, that is really fascinating. Okay, I want to also just quickly ask you I am not obviously involved you still started the business here in Germany, even like the entity, and all that was done in Estonia Exactly, and you're so I assume you're kind of in the startup scene a bit. Can you tell me what that's like here?
Speaker 2:like here I have to say, yeah, yeah, exactly so I was. I was coming from from, from Canada, and I had the same expectations, to be honest, to to see similar ecosystem and it was not the same at all. It was not the same at all. Especially, everything was in Berlin, munich, berlin, munich, Berlin, not nothing, nothing else. I mean you are in Munich right now and you have a much stronger ecosystem of startup in comparison with Hessen that I live right now.
Speaker 1:It's all banking right Because of Frankfurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's quite interesting. Frankfurt is actually the heart of banking, but you don't see majority of investments to fintech as an example here happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:But I compare the first year to the second year. First year for me was and I'm not saying that okay. Yes, obviously there is a kind of learning care for me, also to to understand what's going on around me. But a major shift happened. Last year almost there was nothing. This year, there are a lot of things are coming up and Hessen is actually pushing towards okay, making more events, bringing more experts, bringing more investments and so on. Still has a long way to go, but they have realized that this ecosystem needs to catch up, so they are now trying to bring as much as you know, different accelerators trying to have also presence here, different investment firms try to have events here as well. But there's still a long way in comparison with Munich and Berlin in Germany, a long, long, long way in comparison with Germany and, let's say, uk, yeah, and obviously forget about US.
Speaker 1:Are there any technical universities in Frankfurt?
Speaker 2:I have no idea, I believe so I believe so, and there is one, a very strong one, in Darmstadt that they're doing robotics and then they're doing fantastic job there as well. Yeah, one of them actually attended the AI week that was happening in Frankfurt a few weeks ago. That's so fantastic. Even the people were coming here and they basically shared their journey and they had made kind of a dog robot and then the dog was running around and kind of saying hi to people.
Speaker 1:And it was cute, it was very cute, okay, okay, interesting, and is is the whole scene. Is it largely english-speaking or german-speaking?
Speaker 2:for some time it was majorly only german, uh, but, as I said, the change is happening. They are basically opening it up not for only German startups, but also becoming seen to attract from other, especially European countries here as well. So they have started to a little bit more having German English conversations and run the programs in English and so on. But, as I said, it's a shift.
Speaker 1:It's a shift that is happening Okay and I can clearly see that Okay Interesting, so would you say it's also just part of that is that it's becoming more international.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have realized that they have to become more international and then be open from both sides, from innovation and from investments so this is basically a lot of work that is going to that they are doing.
Speaker 2:I was in berlin, I was in I don't know if you know encourage ventures. They basically are a kind of a non-profit organization that they are trying to bring more awareness to female founders and create communities of business angels and so on, that they invest in female founders, and I was part of their annual gathering in berlin and one of the lady I'm unfortunately forgot her name, she was coming from european innovation center and she shared okay, how much plans is there? First of all, what is the degree of problem for Europe Not just Germany, for the entire Europe and how much they're actually working to bring more support and more programs for the startups and so on. They have realized it, so it's basically a matter of okay, really focusing it and then solving it.
Speaker 1:What kind of like? What are the criteria? These people, the angel investors and all these and what is this? Like 20 billion sunrise, but like the EU has some massive funds for grants, like what are they? What kind of businesses are they? I mean, I'm sure it's all the sectors like deep tech, green tech. I noticed like people just started putting tech on the end of everything.
Speaker 1:Wellness tech, ed tech, just like I'm like, okay, everybody's like trying to get some money, but like what are they? Is it all industries? Are they like looking for things that are going to disrupt? Like what are they, is it?
Speaker 2:all industries? Are they like looking for things that are going to disrupt, like, what are they trying to do? A variety of different types of companies. Some of the grants are a little bit for more established companies, which they have the resources that they can connect with universities and so on to do deep, deep research, if you will, or something that is extra. For instance, right now, especially at this age that such technology like an AI could actually define the future of a country, of a continent, if you will. So they basically have grants supporting research, supporting companies that are actually working on deep tech, artificial intelligence and so on and so forth at a global scale.
Speaker 2:There are some schemes that they basically define that within these areas if it's actually energy, if it's AI, if it's this and this and that they define some budgets and then they specify what type of companies they're looking for so that they can actually leverage from these grants. And then, in some of these areas also, they make it available for companies that are just starting. They just want to understand a little bit of kind of test and try. The budgets typically are much smaller in comparison with other ones, but there are some available kind of areas that especially startups that are working on untrained topics Right now. Climate is very untrained. Sustainability, let's say more health, these are the topics. And AI these are the topics that are very interesting.
Speaker 1:I feel like if anybody wants to do anything right now in Europe, it's got to be like climate or defense. Be real. Yeah, that's good. We're recording this on the 13th November. What is this about? A week after the US elections? Well, yeah, have you heard anything like that? I mean, I do know a friend who's working at an agency and they're already working for the German Bundeswehr and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I just feel going to be a lot of money slushing around there. I think we are living in a space where I don't know if it's a good thing or if it's a bad thing, but technology right now is a political discussion. It's, at certain points, scientists and technologists were doing whatever they wanted to do, and so on, but now it really can define the future of a nation and and how it's actually getting positioned. So technology is a political comment, is a political discussion, and for that sense, european union also is not an exception. They have realized that their their the rocket programs, their their aerospace programs and so on and so on. They basically have realized it, but it requires a little bit. Also, when I'm talking to some German friends of mine, they basically say that European Union is still, as a union, is young, and in order to really be able to move as a union and do certain sort of things, they still are struggling to some extent. But yeah, I mean defense could be one of them. In general, technologies that are going to define the shift of power. This is something that they will definitely look into. That and they should. I mean, it's not like it's a must. They have to work on it, yeah, but then it comes to from European Union, then it comes to countries. They also define certain set of grants and so on.
Speaker 2:But if your question is about, okay, what business angels are looking for, that's a completely different story. That's a completely different criteria. That some angels, all of the angels they have some preferences, that, okay, what type of topics they wish to invest and what are the kind of big dreams that they have, and so on, and they also have criteria. Some of them are easier to take larger risk. Some of them are no, they want to see more and more and more of what is happening, so they need to be completely sure that something is going to deliver back to the money. It really varies between the and there are individuals. So VCs, you get some sense. Okay, vcs in US are like that. Vcs in Paris is like that. Vcs in in in Paris is like that. This is in Germany, I like that. You get that. But non-business angels is, yeah, it's a little bit like everyone has a taste. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, just to wrap up, I do want to ask you, now that you've got a couple of years under your belt of starting and bringing a startup into the world in Germany, what would you, if anything, would you have done differently, or what are some lessons learned that people might find helpful?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the point is that when it comes to Germany in particular, a lot of things were different than what I had imagined and I have been living in different than what I had imagined and I have been living in different parts of the world. It was not like the first time for me to start in something new and start from scratch. I have pushed myself. All's also part of the part of the culture and then how trust is actually formed in communities in Germany. So even if, as a even let's say that I am an investor and I want to support you, I really like what you're doing, eleanor, I really like what you are actually doing. But when I'm actually looking into Eleanor's alone in this space and I also understand that how communities are formed, how business connections are formed, how this and this and this is formed, I see that okay, hair chances of success are very much lower and therefore it becomes a little bit kind of a different conversation. The risk for an outsider to come and start something here is much higher that someone that is already here knows the, the network and pick up the phone call to people. I can actually see their perspective. But at the same time, as I said again, these are the topics that have also been picked up by by the ecosystem, by the community here.
Speaker 2:It's not something that, oh, okay, I am just saying it. No, this is something that the community is saying also, and they are working. And then, okay, how can we solve these problems? And how can we, as an example, bring more awareness to female founders, because, statistically, they get less success in fundraising in comparison with a male equivalent male founder? So there are a lot of activities that are happening to help out. It's just we are talking about the timing. It's a matter of timing, but if I want to start again, I would start building the network first, gaining the trust of people first, before starting the business, and maybe I would have basically found someone that I could start the business with.
Speaker 2:So, these are the same things that? Yeah, if I wanted to do it from the beginning, maybe I would have done it this way.
Speaker 1:Well, that's great advice to end on. Can you just tell us again where everybody can find you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, so they can reach out to me in my LinkedIn. They also can reach out to Pinocelle and we also have an Instagram Pinocell underscore shop that they can also reach out to me on my team there. So, and my email also is available in case that you want to reach out to me personally. Afshansamani at pinocellbio. So remember that is dot bio, so it's not.
Speaker 1:Okay, we'll put that all. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It was great talking to you again.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Eleanor. I really didn't understand how the time passed. I really enjoyed talking to you.
Speaker 1:I was like let's try and keep it to half an hour. It never happened.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed the conversation and you should come to Frankfurt.
Speaker 1:We should grab a coffee and definitely we'll do one of these days, all right, thanks.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. You can find this and all other Germany Expat Business Show podcasts at thegermanylistde Bye.