Queerly Beloved
Join your host, Wil Fisher (AKA "I Am Sylvia Wil Gather Rainbow"), for playful and profound interviews with amazing LGBTQIA+ peeps working in the field of spirituality and personal growth. Wil is a life coach, spiritual healer, and drag queen who loves getting super wu and chatting with fascinating folx about all things spiritually queer and queerly spiritual. You'll love hearing guests' spiritual path stories and gain knowledge as they share discoveries, insights and wisdom. Plus, these interviews tend to be a lot of fun- so expect to have some of that as well...!
Queerly Beloved
Queering Theology with Brian G. Murphy
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In this episode, Wil Fisher sits down with Brian G. Murphy, an activist, educator, and certified relationship coach. Brian is the co-founder of QueerTheology.com (a resource hub, podcast, and online community exploring how queerness and spirituality enrich one another) and the founder of Relationshift, a coaching practice supporting LGBTQ+ and polyamorous folks in building thriving relationships on their own terms. Brian is also the co-author of Queers The Word, and his first solo book, Love Beyond Monogamy.
Together, they explore:
- Moving beyond the “clobber passages” and why queerness doesn’t belong in a defensive posture.
- Polyamory + non-monogamy as a spiritual path and what monogamous folks can learn from it.
- Sex, smut, and the sacred: how hookup culture can be approached with intention instead of shame
- Queer ritual in plain sight (Fire Island as pilgrimage, weekly rhythms, chosen family as spiritual practice).
- Taboo topics with tenderness: orgies, douching-as-ritual, and what “purity/contamination” stories do to the soul.
- Kink, light, and healing and how “taboo” can become a site of liberation.
- What it can look like to return to (or leave) Christianity with agency after religious trauma.
- Why progressive spiritual spaces need to define their terms (God, miracle, resurrection) so people feel safe to receive.
This is a conversation about queerness as holy, pleasure as portal, and choosing a shame-free spirituality that actually feels like good news.
Connect with Brian:
Queer Theology: https://www.queertheology.com/
Queerness Every Day Challenge: https://www.queertheology.com/challenge/
Love Beyond Monogamy Book: https://www.queertheology.com/books/
Brian’s website: https://www.briangerald.com/
Relationship coaching (Relationshift): https://www.briangerald.com/relationship-coaching/
Connect with Wil:
Website: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/
Instagram: @wilfish99
Watch the interviews on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@willfullyliving4357
Weirdly beloved. We are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and queerly spiritual. I'm Sylvia Will Gather Rainbow, a spiritual life coach, retreat host with the most and the dragon queen. And I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks or simply sharing some wisdom of my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super woo together in the spiritual AF. Queer AF Cosmic Container. And Blastop! Hello, beloveds, and welcome back to another episode of Queerly Beloved. In today's episode, I sit down with Brian G. Murphy, an activist, educator, certified relationship coach, and the co-founder of QueerTheology.com, a vibrant resource hub and community devoted to exploring how queerness and spirituality don't just coexist, they enrich one another. Brian is the founder of Relationshift, where he supports LGBTQ and polyamorous folks in building relationships that fit their lives. He's the co-author of Queers the Word, the author of Love Beyond Monogamy, and his work's been featured in places like Vice Buzzfield, The Advocate Upworthy, Huffington Post, and NBC News. In this convo, we chat about how Chosen Family is not just queer culture, but it's deeply sacred and ancient. As we go into Sluttiness Reclaimed, where Brian frames sex positivity as a site of divine insight rather than moral panic or something to fuel shame. We also chat about how queer life is already so rich with rituals, using the pre-hookup prep as a ritual with douching and candles and music, reframed as a preparation for intimacy and vulnerability rather than something dirty. We talk about the holy resilience of the queer community and what faith traditions can learn from how we survive and thrive. We explore what it looks like for queer folks hurt by Christianity to reclaim agency in their relationship with Christianity, finding wholeness without staying spiritually tethered to the stuff that harmed them. So whether you're currently deep in faith or cautiously curious or side-hying church from a safe distance, this episode has something for you. So let's get into it. All right, Brian Murphy. Welcome to Queerly Beloved. So happy to have you. So good to be here. Thank you for having me, Will. Yeah, I can't wait to get into this conversation. As I was saying before we hit record, you are sort of the ideal person for me to interview. You just work in this world, this intersection of queerness and spirituality. So it just feels so fitting that we get to do this.
SPEAKER_01It's so it's such such a blessing to be here. I love talking about this sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yay. Okay, so the question I always ask folks at the start of interviews: who are you in this moment? But tell me by describing the perfect drag avatar that embodies that. And if you'd like, I can go first, or if you're ready, go for it. I think I got it.
SPEAKER_01I'm awesome. I'm that sort of like nerdy, bookish, uh, like Anne Hathaway, Princess Diaries, about to have a Ruvial sort of moment into sort of like a sexy stunning queen. Um, I think because like I'm really sort of like bookishly, nerdily into theology and spirituality, but also for me it's very much like infused with sex and smut and bodies and sweat and spirit all sort of like humming together. And so I'm like in the middle of the twirl of going from like my my little glasses to uh the rock star.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goddess, I love that so much. I like that we also get the specific moment of that queen. Like she is like in her transition, she is like the magic is happening, it's in motion.
SPEAKER_01Behind her has the like spray guns of the fog in the case and fog, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. I love it. Um, great. And so I'll share. I, you know, I woke up this morning and I was sitting at my altar, and this song came through, this song that I was singing earlier this weekend, which is um, which is that uh that water flows through me, that I am water, that fire flows through me, I am fire, that uh air flows through me and earth flows through me. And so I'm I'm very much connected to the elements on this day. So I'm feeling like this earthy woman, this like, you know, this like woman who's like out, you know, in nature, at the fire, and and the rain's happening somewhere, and the wind is swirling, and it's all just like in her spirit and in her energy. I've I've been drinking cacao all morning. It's morning here on the West Coast. So I've just been hanging out by my fire drinking cacao, and I'm I'm feeling this kind of like earth goddess energy today. I love it, I love it. Sweet. So yeah, let's get into it. You know, I have had so much fun checking out your all's website, queer theology, and getting into this beautiful hub that you all have created. And I'd love to hear what spawned it all. Like what was the force behind this beautiful thing you guys have created?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so Shannon, Shannon T. L Kearns, who is my uh creative partner in this project. He's the first openly transgender man ordained in the old Catholic Church. When we first started, he was not ordained yet. Um, he was when we first met, he was in seminary. We met through a mutual friend when we were both living in the New York City area. Um, and he this was like we probably met in like 2008. And the conversation in LGBTQ Christian world was very much is it okay to be gay and Christian? What are the clobber passages say? Like side A versus side B was like the big revelation of the moment. Like, oh my God, we can like we can say it's okay to be gay Christian as long as you're monogamous and wait until marriage, and maybe side B is like it's not okay to be gay, but like it's okay to be a gay person, but you just can't like ever act on it. Like, and that was considered progress, right? Like from ex-gay therapy was like, let's just sort of like debate this and like endlessly. Um, and so like it was very much defined around like, can queer people be a part of Christianity? Is this okay? Defining our identities around these like seven so-called clubber passages, and we were just sort of like so so over it. Um, and this the second time I ever met Shannon, I was I heard him guest preach at Judson Memorial Church here in New York City. Oh, I love Judson. Yeah, it was fantastic. He was doing his internship there. Cool, still in seminary, and he preached on this passage from Ezekiel on the dry bones. And you know how oftentimes uh when people are preaching, you sort of get the sense that, like, oh, they're or sometimes they even say like they're quoting from a book, or like maybe like someone told them a story, or it's like they're they're telling a story of someone they heard from someone who heard it from someone else. And it's just sort of this like secondhand theology, or they're sort of like remixing it or pulling the best parts in. And he like definitely like leaned upon some outside sources, but also like really leaned on his own experiences as a transgender man to sort of like break open this passage in a new way. And I was like, holy shit, he's doing like new theology, like right in front of my eyes. Wow. Uh, and it was just incredible. And I had a little fanboy moment and we connected afterwards and and sort of became friends, and he moved away, and we just kept in touch. Um, and would we would just sort of like get together on Google Hangouts because like this was pre-Zoom and talk about queerness and faith and sort of like a movement and where things were and our frustrations and creativity. And and one day he just said, like, I wonder who owns queertheology.com and what they're doing with it. Um, and we looked it up and no one had it. And so we were like, I guess let's get it. You know, and he was like, Can you put it on your credit card? I don't have $13 to register the URL. So I was like, Yeah, sure, I can I can put it on mine.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so we sat on it for a few months and then decided we were gonna teach a class on how to read the Bible from like a queer perspective. Sort of like the work that he had been doing. And I realized like I had also been doing it. I have this story in our upcoming book about sort of queer antheology at Seattle Pacific when I was giving a talk there a gajillion years ago. Um, like how like how does the what does a text on reveal to us if we sort of bring our whole selves to it? And what might be we what might be is has always been there that we've been missing because we have been looking for, and so sort of like looking for queerness, not sort of like is David and Jonathan gay characters, but like how is from Genesis to Revelation the whole Bible already queer? So we did that, and people signed up for it, and so we kept doing it, and we started this podcast to try to make it even more accessible, um, and have just sort of been like iterating on that and trying to be responsive to the needs of our community, and it's like our community being like the wider LGBTQ Christian and faith and spiritual community. Um and it's yeah, it's it's been a sort of like a journey and a wild ride. And now we have a collection of online resources and workshops and courses and a sort of an online community that's sprung up around it. Um just sort of always sort of trying to figure out like how do we how do we let folks know that like you are already enough and queerness is already holy, and like with that as the starting point, like how much more divine magic can can come about?
SPEAKER_00I love that so much. I love that it kind of started from a URL. It was like there's this, there's this, you know, this URL, which which really is an embodiment of this missing thing, right? This like this piece that nobody is really taking ownership of and giving life to. And so you guys started with that and then you breathed more and more life into it, which I just love.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and one of the things like we recognize, right, is like Shannon is it was it seminary? He went to Union Theological Seminary. I did a lot of nonviolent direct action activism through this organization called Soul Force. I was trained by like civil rights era civil rights leaders, some of whom were involved in like the freedom rights and things like that. And so, like, we had like these like really intense formative experiences. And we recognized that like not everyone can go to seminary or wants to go to seminary or should go to seminary. Not everyone can put their life in hole for two months to do direct action activism. And so we wanted to sort of like make because we didn't like right, queer theology exists before us. We didn't invent it, it's it's a whole academic genre, right? But it it was very sort of like you went to academia and you got a PhD, and like you read queer theology and you wrote queer theology, and it was all sort of like in conversation with other scholars, and like some really cool stuff was happening, but we were like, A, how can we translate that to people who don't have the like degrees to know how to read it? Yeah, and then also how can we empower folks to tell their own queer theology without having to like write a dissertation about it, right? Um, so I we sort of evolved, like sometimes I call it sacred storytelling, right? But like that's at the heart of it what it is. And so, how can everyone have their own sacred story and has some new? I really think like everyone, every single person has some insight into the divine that like only you have. And so, how can like what's your angle in? And when we combine all these together in this like this big, beautiful, queer chorus, we get a more full picture of the divine.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, I love that so much. I mean, in a in a sense, it in my perspective, we are all unique expressions of the divine, yeah. And each person carries this specific light and and and expresses, yeah, the divine in their unique expression of consciousness. And so then we also can consider that queerness is a certain flavor within that, you know, it's and each queer person does it their own way, but queerness as a whole gets to uh express divinity in a certain way, and we need more opportunities to celebrate and to uh invite folks into that expression. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I really see you guys doing that. And yeah, I also see it as accessibility when you were just describing it. It's like there is this thing, but mostly, you know, that happens at uh divinity schools at Yale or whatever, you know. And what if we create it for the masses? What if all folks can connect in that way? It also reminds me of a camp that I used to attend at uh East and Mountain. So I used to run East and Mountain, and there was this camp called Neharim, which was a uh a queer camp where they would interpret rituals and passages from the Torah. So it was a Jewish uh camp. And I'm not Jewish, but I love I could tell because of the ending.
SPEAKER_01It's a plural, it's very Jewish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Neharim. And and I I I loved attending that and getting to experience these rituals, these very traditional rituals through this Jewish lens. Um, yeah, it actually makes me think maybe you're you guys are well equipped to bring something to Easton Mountain because it feels like a missing piece. Episode cool. Um, yeah, it also makes me think about uh an ex-boyfriend of mine who was in divinity school when I was at East and Mountain. I would travel to Princeton to go see him and just to see his struggle, you know, navigating queerness and his spiritual beliefs and religion. And it it was always like this challenge for him. And what I see in the way you guys approach it is that it's letting go of this story that it's a challenge and just talking about the gift that it is. I'd love for you to share more about your thoughts on queerness and how it not just can coexist with spirituality, but actually can enrich spiritual life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think that so we are very much like not interested in sort of debating the klobber passages and is it okay? And it's not because we think that like we can't do it, it's like we think that it's just been done and been done thoroughly and been done like 50 years ago at this point, obviously, honestly. And also, like there is something um that is kind of unfulfilling about those conversations. Well, first of all, it defines queerness sort of on in a defensive posture rather than saying, like, why don't we make the homophobes explain themselves? Right. It has it has it's queerness that is the thing that needs defending. It also then sort of like the terms of the discussion get set by people who don't even like like approve of us or appreciate us. Um, and I just I remember when I was a teenager and realizing that I was attracted to guys, and I had heard that there was that like it was a sin to be gay. And I I don't know, I just had some like Hutzpah. I was like, mm-hmm, like who says? Like, has anyone checked the Bible? So I opened up, so I like opened up my teen study Bible because that's what I had, and I like flipped to the index and looked up homosexuality, and there was a few pages listed, and it was a teen study Bible, so they don't they like point to you to these, you know, like little lesson call-up boxes that someone else has written. And the first one was like all about how uh homosexuality is like bestiality and incest, and like it might be an alternative lifestyle, but it's a sinful one. So I was like, well shit, that's not good. But then little naive, like 14-year-old Brian was like, Well, maybe the other ones are different. And so I like flipped back to the index and I just kept looking, and they were all sort of the same, like AIDS is a result of gay people's like sinful behavior, and it's not okay, and it's a perversion. Um, and somehow I was like, This, I just feel like there's more to the story. And so I I I Googled it, um, or it was like the 90s, and so I asked Jeeves probably or Alta Vista or whatever it was back then. But um, and so I would find these articles that were sort of like these like very academic articles focused on the clubber passages. And I would read one and I would be like, Oh, yeah, great. Like this, this this word doesn't mean that that first doesn't mean that, like, it's okay to be gay. And then I'd read another one that was, you know, rebutting that first one. And it was like, no, here's why all those fragate arguments are wrong. Actually, it actually is a sin. I would go back to that, and then I would like to read a third article that was like, here's why all those rebuttals are wrong, and actually that word for argument is correction. So it just felt like I got stuck in this hamster wheel of like another article after another article after another article. Um, and and that I think sort of also as now as I've been doing this work to fast forward for a long time, I think that like those academic arguments are important for people who are sort of like intellectual or who are like sort of emotionally already on board. They on they sort of like they in some sort of intuitively grasp what like queerness is okay. Maybe they have seen the good work of queerness in their lives or in their friends' lives and their family's lives. They like recognize homophobia for the sin that it is, and it's sort of like, but what do I do with this text? And it sort of almost helps people feel like more comfortable with the Bible. Like, I don't have to chuck the Bible out because here's how it's okay. But I feel like it's just as a queer person, I remember it being like not particularly like emotionally soothing because you can always argue about text and translations. It's was 3,000 years ago, like Leviticus was written like 3,000 years ago. Like, we don't really know what Leviticus 18 meant. And so, like, there's always going to be this sort of like ambiguity around what is Leviticus 18, like what was it intended to do? Who was it for, or Romans 1 or 1 Corinthians, like but you can't argue with stories and personal experiences, and also like, you know, in many of the gospels, like in Matthew, Jesus says judge a true fruit a fruit by its trees. Like you can look at the fruits of anti, like unaffirming theology and see that it leads to depression, fracturing of families, loss of faith, suicide, all of these like bad fruits. And you can look at the fruits of affirming theology and see that it like results in a return to community, a restoration of faith, like a through like a thrivingness, um, an ability to make decisions not out of a place of fear and shame. Um, and I think like many of the sort of uh challenges that very real challenges that like LGBTQ people face around mental health, physical health, sexual health, addiction, are like you can like trace those back not to queerness, right? But to the homophobia, transphobia, unaffirming theology that we experience. And so I think also like uh there's sort of taking that approach and saying, like, we should be like if the gospel is gonna be good news or if the Torah is gonna be good news, like it's gotta, it's gotta actually be good news.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yes, I love that. Yes, let's look at it through this lens of good news. Yeah, and I do think that there is some kind of hubris in the idea of interpreting it in this very uh very specific, very uh controlled, structured way, like it means this because of this. You know, I feel like one of the things that's missing in Christianity and other organized religions is this acknowledgement of the great mystery of spirit that we don't know, and that we can't say that the Bible absolutely definitively means this. This is for us to use in a good way and for us to interpret it in any way that spews hate, just seems so counterintuitive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh Abraham Joshua Heschel, who is uh was an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, talked about sort of like awe and wonder as sort of like being key parts of a religious person's experience and the ways in which you know God, and that like you can't necessarily like intellectually always like define God, but that like through paying attention to awe and wonder, yeah, you can sort of like intuit the divine presence. And I think that that is like so important. And I just try to like attune myself to like how can I be present to the awe and wonder that is already around, and that feels like God breaking in.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and it makes way more sense to be connecting with spiritual ideas, scripture, whatever it is, through the heart, not through the mind, not trying to like make it sense intellectually, but to just connect with the heart. And when we think about these examples that you're giving of people coming into community, people thriving, this is all stuff that is connected to our hearts being well nourished. And it just makes more sense. And so then when we can really just swipe out the idea that it's uh, you know, a sin and just acknowledge that this is a beautiful part of life, what is it that you think is the kind of secret sauce of queerness in this relationship to spirituality? Like how how do those intersect in a way that you see as valuable or uniquely positive in the world?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think some of the ways in which I find queerness to be particularly meaningful to me and the ways in which I it has helped me to sort of like understand faith in newer and deeper ways is there's a few sort of areas, right? I think like one of them is uh breaking down boundaries around who is family and what family is and and chosen family, which is actually like a very Jewish and Christian idea, right? That like we see in Ruth, like Ruth leaves her family's and origin and and sort of chooses, even though her husband has died, like to Naomi, like your people will be my people, your God will be my God, like where you go, I will go. So that sort of like choosing family is really a part of lots of different stories in the Tanakh. Obviously, the Jesus or this whole one of his like famous moments is turning to his disciples and saying, like, who are my mother? Who are my brothers? Who are my sisters? Like the people who are here, these are the my people, right? And so, like, I think queer people do that really well, and that has been lost in a lot of, especially white straight cisgender communities, right? And so sort of like this sort of modeling for folks, how to choose family feels really important. I think there's something about like resilience, perseverance in the face of adversity. Obviously, like the Israelites and the Jewish people throughout history and into the present day, very small minority with lots of persecution. The earliest Christian communities also small, facing lots of persecution. That's a little bit different now that Christianity has sort of become empire, also. But like for queer people and progressive people, like within Christianity, like how can we hold on to that? How can they how can they hold on to that spark? Um, and sort of like in the face of uh in the Hebrew Bible, uh occupation and exile, in the Christian Bible, occupation, right? Like, what does it look like to sort of have these like really big forces outside of us pressing down on us and not lose our identity, not lose hope, and then like continue to survive and thrive, um, feels really important. And I think that one of the things that I'm trying to, one of the drums that I will always beat is sort of I think that like queerness also has like a lot of rituals that are quite sacred that we don't maybe necessarily realize that that's what we're doing. Um, and so just to sort of like name like if you get together with your friends every week to watch like RuPaul's drag race, like that, like that is that is like a ritual, like a meaningful that like that could be a spiritual practice for you. It could just be like you getting together with your friends, but like if you're like cooking appetizers for everyone and you're like have your gay colored lights that you turn off when your friends come over, right? Like, like that's a ritual. Um all these meaningful steps to this, yeah, to this shared experience. Yeah, like I go to Fire Island once a summer with my like sort of a queer chosen family, and like just the act of going there, it's sort of like a pilgrimage, right? Like that's a ritual. When you're on the island, there's this like weekly ritual of like every night you go to tea, and everyone from all over the island like walks to the central harbor, and there's music and there's drinking and there's talking and there's singing along. It's kind of like communion and kiddish and worship and coffee hour, like all rolled into one, right? Like every single day. I love it. There's like, you know, show tunes Sundays every Sunday, the underwear parties every Friday. There's this sort of like weekly rhythm that like actually I think is quite holy. Um, even just like for people for whom, like, not to get too graphic, but this is okay. Like for for gay guys, like for who for whom like douching is a part of their like hooking up process, right? Like, I know some people like light candles or turn on music, they have a playlist, like it's a whole process of sort of like getting ready to then go be like extremely vulnerable. Yeah. Right. And especially if you're doing it with like a hookup or a stranger, like welcoming the stranger into your home, into your body. Like, there's like some real vulnerability there. I think that like the ways in which queer men who have lots of casual sex, like model like not being afraid of strangers, is something that like white people in the suburbs could learn a whole lot from. Right. And so I think like there's like some magic there about sort of like I'm gonna like not be afraid. Um, that feels really powerful as well.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I love all those examples. Seeing all of that through the lens of a spirituality is so juicy to me. I love that. If you read that, you'll love my new book. Oh, good. Oh, I can't wait to read it. Yeah, do you want to share a little bit about that? I mean, I'm gonna put it in the show notes. I know it's coming out a little bit later, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it comes out this September. It's available for pre-order right now. It's called Love Beyond the Monogamy. Um, and so it like looks up, it's very queer and polyamorous, like non-monogamous, but it's sort of looks like the ways in which queerness and non-monogamy and sluttiness and sex all sort of like reveal parts of the divine and the ways in which sort of like you can infuse your queerness or your non-monogamy or your sex life with some spirituality to feel good about it, and like lessons for folks who are monogamous that they can learn from non-monogamous people and vice versa, and how you can apply sort of like these ideas, these best best practices from non-monogamy, either to not to monogamy or to spirituality. There's sort of like this like three-way synergy that's happening.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's so beautiful. And what I imagine in that short description and from the examples that you were giving around looking at these acts in this ritual spiritual lens, is that it can really, when we reframe things, we're able to shift our energy behind them, right? And so someone who might be hooking up with a stranger who is still stuck in the shame and and blame around it, they're gonna have a certain experience and they might experience some pleasure in their body, but they might end up feeling less nourished in their soul and in their body, in their spirit. And so, how can we start seeing it in a new way where it can be life-giving? You know, this this act can actually serve us in a good way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I was when I was like 20, um, and there was this guy that I was like, some I would hook up with every now and then. And one time, either like before or after or during, we were chatting, and he said that for his 21st birthday, he wanted to like have an orgy. And I was like, What? You like cannot you're not supposed to want that, and you're certainly not supposed to say that out loud. Like that is like too much. And but but I remember like him, there was like something about like me, him saying that. It like it was almost like he like souped like the shame away from me and like made it like Lavroncock's possibility models. Like, I was like, Oh, I could want that, or like the the the sick people touching Jesus' cloak and it sort of like whoop it like leaving. It felt like if I I had like a that moment with him. Um and then years later, I would learn Richard Beck has this book called Unclean, and he talks about like purity and disgust and contamination and and um this idea, right? Like one of his metaphors is I think it's like if you had a swimming pool full of wine and then someone like put a drop of urine in it, you would be like, ugh, I like now that the that the wine is contaminated. I like can't I can't drink out of that. Or like if I spit in a cup, would you then drink my spit out of the cup? But you mean not you, but like one like might kiss me and I would are still I was with me. There's like something of these sort of like ideas of like what when what like when things become contaminated. Yeah, and that like Jesus has this sort of like opposite effect that like instead of a whole swing pull of wine being contaminated by like one drop of urine that just sort of like one one drop of cheeses, I guess. Uh how like the possibility to sort of like to take out take a take away all of this uh sort of like ritualistic impurity and contamination. And so I think about that as sort of like how can we be those moments of like in it's just show up into relationships, community, hookups, and sort of be like, I'm gonna show up and like not, I'm gonna like hold this sort of like shame-free space and like I'm gonna bring this positive energy and I'm not gonna talk about what we're doing as being dirty or a secret. Uh like this is like hot and exciting and pleasure-filled and pleasurable and vulnerable and exciting. And even if it's doing something that like is taboo, like we're doing it because like we both want to be here and we both want to be doing this thing. And so, like, you don't have to feel bad. Whatever you're like if it's a particular kink, right? Like this can all still be a sort, like a site of pleasure and connection. Um, and like, how can we sort of then like be agents of healing? Not that we're gonna like heal all the gay community's shame just by like one hookup, right? But like I try to sort of like when I'm meeting new people, whether it's at like a uh through friends or over dinner or at clubs or on apps or in person, sort of be like this sort of like positive, like shame-free presence. And like, how does that how does that shift things than secretive, uh tentative, unsure, regretful presence?
SPEAKER_00I love that so much. Yeah, it reminds me of a retreat I've spoken on the pod about a couple of times, which is I did a conscious kink retreat at the jungle gayber hood. Wow, and yeah, it was amazing. And there was just so much light in it. Like there is some folks when they think about kink, they think of you know, this dark BDSM, they they have like these negative connotations, and it was so full of light and so much healing got to take place. And it really was just the approach and the intentionality and the energy behind it. And I think that is true with all things. If if all things have the potential to be expressions of the divine, or I might say that all things are an expression of the divine, uh, it's how do we really shine the light into them? You know, and I love that you're doing it in these things that some might consider taboo, might consider riddled with shadow. I think that's really powerful. Um, yeah, one of the things that I've noticed with queer folks who are coming back into spirituality is that they tend to shy away from Christian spirituality. Like I see folks connecting more with, you know, some of the, you know, like the earth goddess uh that I was talking about in my drag avatar. Yeah, more pagan or um, you know, Buddhist stuff. I feel like Christianity continues to be a bit of a trigger for a lot of queer folks. And I'm curious what you've seen work for the queer person who may have been burned by Christianity, how how it has worked for them to kind of tiptoe back in. Yeah. See if you have examples of that. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01I so um I think like one of our guiding principles has always been like, we think, like without a shadow of a doubt, that like if you're a queer person and like you like want a place in Christianity, like there is a place for you. Not only do you belong there, but like you are you you bring something like needed a critical up. Like Christianity is incomplete without queerness. And also, like if you're like Christianity is not for me, either you've just been burned too badly and it hurts too much, or you're like, I don't know, like I don't I got over my baggage, but like this just like isn't resonating with me. Like cool, you don't actually have to be Christian to like be a good person, to have a connection with the divine, to like prove that gay people can be Christian, uh, to stick around so that your church will change, like they are gonna change, or they're not gonna change. You're gonna, they're it's not it's not gonna make or break it just because of you. Yeah. Um and so I think that like I don't know if you know this, but like, so I can I can reverted to Judaism a few years ago. So I like left. Um and I was talking with a friend of a friend who's a rabbi. Um, and I was like, well, I don't know, like if this has been really meaningful for me. It's I it's a we don't need to get into my whole story, but Jewish Jewish people and Judaism has been sort of part of my life for as long as I can remember. And some like many of my chosen family, some of my like extended family of origin are Jewish, right? It's like I've sort of been I stuck in home for a long time. Um and I was like, well, I don't know, like I like I'm having all this like angst about and I have this podcast. Um and he was like, Well, what would you tell someone else if they wanted to leave? And I was like, uh we tell them we tell people constantly to go, right? And so he was like, So make maybe you could model that then. Um I was like, Yeah, yeah, you're right. Um, but I so the and also like so that's true. It's like I want to start it all with like you can stay Christian, you cannot stay Christian. I have no the only skin in the game that I have is like that you are fine thriving. And also, like two things. One is that for me, I felt like I wanted to make sure that I was running towards something and not running away from something. And so I didn't want it to be like Christianity hurts too much, I've been burnt, I don't trust it, I'm not, I'm like reactive to it. Um, and like that's why I gotta go. Because I feel like I can't be here. Um, I feel like I really it took a long time, but I like figured out all of my sh-ish around Christianity and I was like, oh yeah, like I can get behind this, like this really works for me. I feel like I'm out and proud and I have a place here, and like these are it's sort of like the the language that I my native tongue and the water that I swim, the air that I breathe. And also like I I personally happen to have this like second home that just like felt a little bit more right for me. Um, but like I think that for lots of people, uh, there's like power in staying. Um I we interviewed on our podcast, Avra Shapiro, we were talking about sort of like the same question of like why, like, why bother with in her in their case Judaism and other people's cases Christianity, like when there's like so much ill. And one of their things that they said that really spoke to me was like that there's this sort of like uh magic that comes from like a rootedness of these like traditions that are ancient and that like we have been a part of for a long time. And that when like in for me, like in Judaism, like when we like light Shabbat candles, it's like are these are uh a practice that people have been doing for three thousands of years, so we're like we're connected in time through to these people, and also all around the world, these people are doing it. Similarly, like Christians have been praying like the Lord's Prayer every day for like 2,000 years now, and like there's like some power in that. And one of the other points that Avra said was like we like we actually can't escape imperialism and sexism and like white supremacy, like and capitalism, like everything is touched by it, and so like you go wanna go to an earth religion, it's gonna be there. You want to like make your own thing, it's gonna be there too. And so there's no problem with going to any of those places, like if that's what if that's where your jam is. Um, but like we're just to sort of like have your eyes way open that like they're all everything is kind of problematic, which doesn't let let us let does not like let it let us off the hook, but it means like no matter where we go, there will be um work to do. And I think uh it's important, like a big part for me, and this is a I think a value that I get from queerness, is like a community. And so making sure that you have like people to do it or to do it with that will sort of like I think when when faith and spiritual communities work at their best, they're sort of reminding you of your deepest values, their expressions of their deepest values. And so, like sometimes I like will do like an act of sadaka of of of like giving to charity because like I'm like, oh like this is something that I care about, and so like of course this like practice in Judaism like resonates with me, and also sometimes like Judaism like reminds me like it's important to do this thing, and there are people I'm surrounded by other people who are similarly engaged in trying to heal the world. Um I stay connected to Christian communities, obviously, through critical.com because like these are this is also like where I come from. I have a deep love and care for LGBTQ people in general, and then particularly LGBTQ people who are Christian or were Christian or like might still be Christian, and so like how can you find your healing and wholeness? And I think that like Christianity has some really radical origins, and um, a lot of the like rituals, communion um in particular is like really like mystical and magical, and also sort of like uh to be one body, like what does that actually mean? The Lord's prayer to give us our daily bread, to forgive our debts, these sort of you know, um present abolition is a big part of Jesus' ministry. Uh and so I think that like joining together and people who share these values and to leaning on like these practices to help you remember to help you remember remember those values is super important. And so I I think you don't have to decide right now, like you might still be in the hurting or the figuring it out spot, but like one of the things that we like really want to encourage folks to do is like if you like stay Christian and like go in, right? And like figure out the practices that work for you and find the communities that work for you and surround yourself with people and study and like and make it a part of your life, or like get out and like get out healthfully and fully so that you're not sort of like scrolling Twitter and getting angry about all the things like the Baptists are doing and tweeting, tweeting, tweeting, tweeting, tweeting and like have like one foot in the door, one foot out the door. Like you like, obviously what the Baptists are doing affects us because Christians control the world, like and also like you sort of like emotionally detached from that and like do the work that needs to be doing. And so, like, there's I think what we don't want to see is people who are like not Christian, but they're like are not clear of like what their values are, they don't have any practices that support them in living thriving lives, or still sort of like very much plugged into this conservative Christian world that they ostensibly left, but like still have one foot in the door. Oftentimes people seem like scared of a god they don't believe in. Like, we really want to make sure that you like you heal from all of that so that you can like go deep in whatever your chosen path is and find like wholeness and thriving there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes so much sense. Yeah, to not be hooked by it in any way and to have agency around do I want to stay or do I want to go? And if I'm staying, it's from a place of healing. And if I go, it's from a place of healing and wholeness, you know. And I just love knowing that you've converted to Judaism, to know that you are a queer polyamorous Jewish champion for Christianity. It's just perfect.
SPEAKER_01I was talking with um AJ Levine, who we also did on the podcast, who's like this Orthodox Jewish woman, and I was like, Well, I don't know, and this like this work. And she was like, Yeah, you're gonna have to figure it out. She's like, I mean, I'm not a queer polyamorous Jew talking about Christianity, but like you all that will be you because like you are that is one of your areas of expertise.
SPEAKER_00So I love it. I love it. I just think it it makes it even more uh invitational in a way. You know, it's like everybody's welcome in this conversation, everybody's welcome at this table. Totally. Yeah, and it's it this whole piece around healing and agency and wholeness, it reminds me of the journey that I've been witnessing with my current partner who came from a lot of religious trauma. So his he's written a he's produced a documentary about this, talked about it on a lot of podcasts. So I feel at liberty to share. He was part of the Jesus people. Have you heard of that? It's sort of a quality cult. So he grew up with them and went through a lot of trauma as a result of that. And as a result of being a gay kid who folks could see was probably going to be a gay person, and they uh they did terrible things. They had him in like uh solitary confinement for years, and he just he suffered so much at the hands of this religion, and yet he is connected to the divine and he feels this call to be a spiritual person. And so in our relationship, he's expressed to me that he is interested in connecting with the spiritual community. And one of the first opportunities to do that was through a Christian church that was like calling to me. And it was this really cool church called the Collective, and it was uh a mystics Christianity, so it's like Christianity through a mystic lens, and it's very like hippie, like you show up and they do a sound bath at the beginning. Pelo Santo is burning, and this the minister shows up, he's got like long hair and tattoos, he's like rides in on his skateboard, and he like, you know, and he like hangs out with us and shares some messages, and uh it was super triggering for him though, even though it was so like woo-woo and like non-yeah, like traditional Christian, it was still triggering. But what was beautiful is that the the minister, I don't know if he'd even call himself that, but he was a pastor's son who also came from some religious trauma and a very complicated relationship with religion. And so he was able to just really see Jamie, my boyfriend, like really see him and understand how his words were triggering him and how difficult it was for him to sit in that room. And then, you know, we would end the day and inevitably he would tell me how triggered he was. And at the end, like finally, I was like, you know what? We don't need to keep coming back. Like, this doesn't seem like it's working. And then the next week was Easter. So this was just recently. And I'm like, babe, we really don't have to go to church. Like, I'm not we can go somewhere else. We can go, you know, yeah, yeah. And he's like, no, no, I want to be there. And then something happened at church. I mean, it was really a beautiful sharing that day because Luke, the minister, he basically talked about how the literal interpretation should be questioned. And he was like, and he was like, you know, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. And if we look at it, if we look at this and we look at this and we look at this, it doesn't make a lot of sense. But let's talk about the the the symbolism and the metaphor in the story and see if that can resonate with our hearts. And something happened in that day, and Jamie just like was open and he was able to receive, and it was like this beautiful healing. And from that place, I feel like he now does. Have more agency, more wholeness to either keep going back because he does feel like he's receiving something and it's connecting to his heart and his soul, or to move on, but to move on to a different avenue or or doorway into spirit that is not running away from Christianity, as you said. It's running towards something that's more uh resonant. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think because conservative Christianity is so like slippery, like they present them the different churches will present themselves in different ways. And so just because a progressive church like is has Palo Santo and sort of mystical and relational central, like I'm sure, I'm sure that there's some sort of like gross non-denominational church that also uses sense and there's like someone skateboarding, right? And so like it might it might be that like you have to go somewhere where it's like very high church cosmelian, right? Yeah, something out to like next level of the different, right? Yeah, yeah. Or like it might be that you like need to take a break for a while, right? And like not go to church for a few weeks, a few months, like a few years. Well, and I think for him, he hadn't gone to church for many years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. This was a big step, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like I feel like he's probably like more able to step back into that world because of the break than if he'd like had just come out of the Jesus people and immediately gone here, really. Totally. No, there's like break. Like it's like you like aren't in when you date, like if you're in one long-term relationship, maybe you don't immediately jump into the next one totally later. I think there's a totally energy there.
SPEAKER_00One of the other helpful things with this particular place, the the what's it called? The current collective, is they have a book that Luke wrote where it goes through all the common language in the Bible and redefines it so that when you're hearing the word Holy Spirit, you're not interpreting it in the same way that you were when it was being used against you. And I find that really helpful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that that's a real area of uh growth for progressive Christian leaders that I think that when a progressive Christian pastor says, God, Holy Spirit, miracle, even like resurrection, I think that they might mean something very different than a conservative Christian pastor. But because they're like not always spelling it out, and because conservative Christianity so dominates the media that like you could be attend a progressive church your entire life, and just because like when they talk about God and miracles in the media and in movies, it's one way, and your pastor's also talking about it, you assume that they like they mean the same thing, and they just like they don't. Um and so I can I think it's really important to to name what we mean by miracle God and like what we how we relate to these stories in the Bible, and I think that they can be like true without having happened, or they happened in some way, but not in the exact way that they're recorded here, and that's not like because they're lying or they're trying to pull a fast one over us, it's that like we live in a post-modern, post-Enlightenment society, and we've also like been shaped by video and audio recordings and news cameras and documentaries, and our the ways in which we like understand what happened is different than a thousand years, two thousand years ago, even 500 years ago, like the way that you told stories about like what happened, the events that happened and what they mean have always been intertwined with one another. And like it's not actually like a gotcha that there wasn't a worldwide flood, right? Like, yeah, like some some big either some big flood that felt like the whole world was flooded happened, or like they've heard stories about other religions and their floods, and here's how our God is different in the way that our God responds to this flood, right? Or the Exodus or the creation of the world, it's like etc. etc. etc. That like myth and meaning and history and propaganda have like always been tied up together. Yes. Um, and so like it you this sort of like conservative Christian idea that like every single word in the Bible literally happened exactly as it happened is like not how anyone ever intended it. And that's like not also like not something that happened exclusively in the past. Like, yeah, like if you look at Fox News versus CNN versus MSMBC, like they're also describing our current reality in very different ways. And like sometimes to me it seems like that's just like an outright lie. Like, that's like like not what happened, but that's like how it's getting recorded. Or sometimes like the thing that happened, it did in fact happen, but like how you spin it and like what it means shapes your perception of like were they deported, were they arrested, were they abducted, were they assassinated? Like the different the words you choose, it's all work that's a process that is still happening today. That like myth and propaganda and meaning and history are constantly being like fought in public and how we tell these stories about what's important to us and how we see the world.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Wow, yeah, there's so many layers, it's so complicated. And when we just keep coming back to the truth, you know, the truth, you know, the simple truth for me is that it is all love, you know. And if I could keep coming back to that and finding that in all the within all the stories, that that's what's helpful for me. So listen, I know that this is going to be coming out probably in May, this episode, and at the end of May. And I know you've got this thing going on in June, this queerness everyday channel for you to share a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we started this a few years ago um as like a way for for folks, if you're like wanting to have a deeper connection between your spirituality and your sexuality, gender expression, um, to have those two feel more excited, but more connected, but also like not feel like overwhelmed by it. So it's like a five-day, six, five or six days. It starts on a Sunday and ends on a Friday. Um, each day we'll have like a short little challenge that you can do in five minutes or less to help you sort of like bring these two closer together. And they're designed so that like you can do whatever the sort of assignment or adventure for the day is in five minutes or less. But also, like if you've got some more time where one particularly like sparks your interest, you can go deeper and like explore those connections further and spend like an hour or more. It's designed so that like these are also things that you can, after the challenge ends, like pick the ones that resonate most with you and continue and incorporating them into your lives going forward. Um, we've had folks be like, oh, I started this practice during the queerness everyday challenge, and like now a year later I'm still doing it, or who came back for a second time and were like, the first time I did that, did it this way, I'm gonna try like a new angle this time around. And so I think like um, like no matter where you are on your sort of a queer trans journey, or just sort of like a straight cisgender person who wants to sort of like be informed by the wisdom of queerness. Um, this is sort of like a way that you can just a very manageable way um have some like more connection, more expression, more taking up space um between these like two areas that sometimes feel kind of separate and sort of like bring them together and smoosh them together. Um and so, folks, if they're interested, then go to queer theology.com slash challenge and um it's just seven dollars for the seven-day challenge. And you also get like a full month of our whole community and resource library along with that. So it's like as an extra bonus.
SPEAKER_00So it should be really a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm gonna plan to do that. I love that. It's so practical and fun. And yeah, I'll have that in the show notes, and we'll also let folks know what they can do to hear about your book when it comes out. Any final thoughts, anything you want to share with the listeners as we close out?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think that um, like you said, that there's something about leading with love and coming back to love at the center that feels really important. And I think like if my sort of like benediction moment would be that like right where you are right now, like you are already enough, and your gender and your sexuality and your relationships, um, it's all already holy, and you're like part of the big, beautiful tapestry of divine creation. And so, like, we need you to keep shining and shimmering and and and letting your light sort of refract and glitter on.
SPEAKER_00Yes, glitter on. Thank you so much, Brian. This was such a joy. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that convo as much as I did. Please check the show notes to learn more about Brian and to connect with me. I'd love to hear from you. Oh my goddess beloveds, what a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon, okay? And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time, peace.