Queerly Beloved
Join your host, Wil Fisher (AKA "I Am Sylvia Wil Gather Rainbow"), for playful and profound interviews with amazing LGBTQIA+ peeps working in the field of spirituality and personal growth. Wil is a life coach, spiritual healer, and drag queen who loves getting super wu and chatting with fascinating folx about all things spiritually queer and queerly spiritual. You'll love hearing guests' spiritual path stories and gain knowledge as they share discoveries, insights and wisdom. Plus, these interviews tend to be a lot of fun- so expect to have some of that as well...!
Queerly Beloved
Alchemizing "Source Material" with Ash Ryzen Witham
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In this episode, Wil Fisher sits down with Ash Ryzen Witham, a queer, nonbinary trauma-informed Somatic Coach and Connection & Embodiment Facilitator. Ash supports personal and collective transformation by guiding people into deeper connection with themselves, each other, and life itself through somatic wisdom, embodied and authentic relating practices, and movement + expression. Their work is rooted in the belief that the ache, tension, and longing we carry are not “problems to fix,” but raw material for personal evolution, where the art of alchemy truly lives.
Together, they explore:
Somatic coaching as a path to self-trust and the body as our most honest guide.
Nervous system regulation in intense times and why safety isn’t a concept, it’s a felt experience.
“First responders”: the early signals in the body that let us intervene before activation takes the wheel.
How to work with emotions in a way that’s compassionate, practical, and grounded in real life (not bypass-y).
Authentic Relating as a practice of truth + care: saying what’s real while staying connected to impact.
Belonging vs. fitting in and how self-belonging becomes the foundation for healthy community.
Holding multiple truths in queer spaces with more curiosity, less fragility, and more capacity for nuance.
Alchemy as transmutation: turning pain, tension, and longing into power, meaning, and movement.
Ash’s queer journey, representation, and the ways “coming out” can be a lifelong unfolding.
Ecstatic dance as an embodied portal back into aliveness, joy, and community.
Connect with Ash:
Website: www.ashwitham.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alchemy.with.ash/
Connect with Wil:
Website: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/
Instagram: @wilfish99
Weirdly beloved. We are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and queerly spiritual. I'm Sylvia Will Gather Rainbow, a spiritual life coach, retreat host with the boat and a drag queen, and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks or simply sharing some wisdom of my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wooed together in the spiritual AF. Queer AF Cosmic Container. And Black Stop! Hello, beloved, and welcome back to another episode of Queerly Beloved. Today I'm joined by Ash Risenwithom, a queer non-binary, trauma-informed somatic coach and connection and embodiment facilitator devoted to creating inclusive spaces for personal and collective transformation. Whether guiding through somatic wisdom, embodiment, and authentic relating practices, or movement and self-expression, Ash's work is rooted in a core belief that our aches, tensions, and longings aren't problems to fix, but are the raw material for our evolution, where the empowering art of alchemy truly lives. And in this episode, Ash and I discuss first how to care for your nervous system in these turbulent times, and what it looks like to create inner safety and safety in our connection with others. We then unpack what somatic coaching actually is and how it differs from talk therapy, including how to learn your body's early first responders, the things that potentially activate you, how to understand them and meet them with compassion, skill, and choice. We also explore discernment from the perspective of listening to the language of the body. And then we dive into authentic relating and we talk about how speaking our truth isn't the whole point if we don't also stay mindful of our impact and care for the relational field between us and the person we're relating with. Ash then offers a grounded framework for navigating multiple truths and shared spaces and the deeper work of holding complexity without collapsing into fragility in these spaces. And yes, we talk about alchemy, turning source material, the challenges that we're born with and that we find in our lives, turning those into something meaningful, not by bypassing the hard parts, but by blending with what life is giving you and letting it transform you from the inside out. Along the way, we also touch on Ash's journey of self-discovering. We talk about the L-word, we talk about the ever-evolving nature of coming out and what it means to become the example you didn't get to see. I have a feeling that Ash has impressive flow on the ecstatic dance floor. And lucky for us, this conversation does too. I really hope you enjoy it. Hello, Ash, and welcome to Queerly Beloved. So happy to have you.
SPEAKER_02So happy to be here.
SPEAKER_03So I'm just gonna jump right in with the question that I ask all my interview subjects at the top of the interview. And it's a bit of a creative question. And if you need a second, I can go first. But the question is who are you in this moment? But tell me by describing a drag avatar that embodies that.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, let's see. Well, as I was saying before we got in here, I'm feeling very tired. But if I were to make that drag transform that, so yes, I'd be like uh a drag king of alchemy. So maybe I'm like alchemister.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Alchemister, and I have a mustache for sure to make it a little bit, you know, a little more dragged up. And or maybe I'm a non-binary drag NB. Who knows? That part's that part's fine for me, however that comes through. But um yeah, definitely in the alchemy of the tiredness, transforming that maybe into some surrender and trust.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_02And obviously, you know, I'm just a fan of alchemy in and of itself. So feels like a low-hanging fruit for me.
SPEAKER_03Yes, alchemister. Welcome.
unknownThank you.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I love that. I'm excited to chat more about alchemy too. Thank you. So let me check in. I mentioned that I'm helping my boyfriend dog sit, this scrappy little guy named Chubaca, while his mama's in Costa Rica. And yeah, he's a scrappy little puppy. And so, you know, my day started with like wrestling and playing with this puppy and just all this puppy energy. And so my drag avatar. I'm also seeing this like pillow behind me. This is kind of what his coat looks like.
SPEAKER_02It's like that's what I was picturing.
SPEAKER_03Really? Amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I saw that and I was like, is that him?
SPEAKER_03Like for a split second, but so funny. So he is like this, like, you know, almost like dirty blonde, creamy. And so I'm imagining myself in that. I'm not a puppy, uh, you know, sometimes my avatars are an actual animal, but I'm not seeing myself quite as a puppy, but uh a boyish, a boyish, like a drag boy, yeah, wearing this like scrappy coat and just like ready to like go in the dirt and roll around and be in the sunshine and just like you know, soak in the joys of living during this time that is very dark and easy to get pulled into the pain and violence and fear of the world right now. Uh, my drag boy wants to come out and remember that life is for enjoying and for playing and for being in that sunlight and rolling in the dirt. So that's who I'm calling in right now. Drag boy, scrappy drag boy.
SPEAKER_02You know what? It sounds like scrappy drag boy and alchemister could be a great team for this moment.
SPEAKER_03For sure, yes.
SPEAKER_02Moment in time, for sure.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. Speaking of, I I am curious to talk to you about how you've been doing in this moment and and perhaps how have you been taking care of your your nervous system through what's going on in the news. Uh maybe you're you know separating yourself from it altogether, but yeah, there's some messed up stuff going on right now. And how's that been for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's certainly a soft way to put it. Yeah. You know, I don't know why I'm immediately thinking about when you ask me about this time, I think about exactly this time a year ago. And I think that's when I was feeling deeply personally, directly like blown out by all of some of what's continued to happen in this past year. Yeah, and yeah, I think I just I roll with the waves. Like in that moment, I needed to just get knocked out by it and really feel it all the way through, really call on community, um, really take some time out of the US, just not, you know, to I have the privilege of being able to leave the US freely, for example, and just like I I take that as a sincere privilege that not everybody has the ability to do. So um, yeah, I was teaching in Guatemala exactly a year ago, so that was an easy trip for me to do, but um it was it's been, yeah, it comes in waves, and I think the main things for me are committing to my own personal practices, which for me is like a morning practice uh almost every day is my my intention is every day. And um and being with queer community is a big thing for me, and then also doing some you know mindful research to stay informed and to stay, but not like letting my only point of reference be like social media or because that can really I mean it's it's important, I think, to take that in and take in the direct voices, but it's also can be an echo chamber. And so making sure I have some spread out news resources and tuning into some good news here and there also is important.
SPEAKER_03Nice, yeah. Thanks for sharing that. What does your morning practice look like? You said you got a good long one in this morning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it tends to change. I spent a lot of time living abroad. I'm now based in LA last couple of years again, but wherever I was living, I would let that place influence my practice. But the main structure, what it's been lately, is um there's a part I wants to go over every single detail, but I'm gonna keep it to the like Yeah. I'm gonna keep it to the bones, which is uh, well, I'm gonna grab my water because this is an important part of it. This is 24 ounces of water. Okay. And it's kind of timed by me drinking that a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Okay. So you'll get through 24 ounces by the end of your morning routine.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Work by a certain point. So fill that up, brush my teeth, do all that. Um, and then the first thing I do is meditate, and then I do a workout or movement of my body. And then I'll pull some tarot cards for the day.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_02And then by this point, I probably finished the water, and now I know it's time to go make breakfast. And while I'm making breakfast and coffee, I'll be singing. So I'm really activating my throat on, you know, the vagus nerve, also just you know, waking up my voice. Just singing whatever, or yeah, just improv singing, just letting some little tune come through.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02And then breakfast is made. I go sit on my balcony and I journal three pages with my coffee, my vitamins, my breakfast. And then it's complete.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Oh, that's so nourishing. I'm so glad I asked. That's inspiring. I love it so much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've been doing it for a long time. Like, like I said, it changes a little bit depending on where I'm living, to like inspired by jumping in the lake or doing this. But it's kind of like the main hits are like connecting to mind, body, spirit, and emotional nourishment, and also not having any notifications available on my phone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Not looking at my phone, keeping the noise out.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02Just be with the the inner the inner wisdom.
SPEAKER_03So nourishing, so grounding. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I I incorporate some singing into mine pretty regularly. I go outside with my shruti box after my prayers and my meditation, and I'll just do some kind of song or whatever wants to come through. Um, I like the idea of like singing while I'm like doing my breakfast. That's really sweet. Uh, for the days where I don't have the time to just sit out there. That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I like it. Oh, yeah. Thanks. I have a shrootie box, but I accidentally got one that's too small, and so the sound is kind of like really bright and not like a nice grounding drone sound.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're wonderful to have. Last night I hosted a little play shop at my house. I've been hosting these monthly workshops to help adults play more. And after meditating, one of the guys was talking about the shruti, and we just put on a chord and we just all sang like different notes within that chord, and it was like so connecting. It was like we, you know, in that moment we are all just one, you know. And so the shruti is so helpful for things like that. And for me, for writing songs, I'll just play and just see what wants to come through. I feel like I feel like a bard, like it brings me to this ancient time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I just I appreciate you sharing about the the morning practice because it it is so important, especially during these tumultuous times, for us to stay grounded in ourselves and to remember that we are safe. If if we are, we're not all safe, but to to recognize the safety of the moment, the present moment, uh, and to allow our nervous systems to register that so we're not on high alert all the time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03So, anyways, uh let's see. I'd love to hear about your path into somatic coaching and conscious relating. Uh, I'd I'd love to hear sort of what brought you into this space that you that you walk in so gracefully and and powerfully and beautifully.
SPEAKER_02Thanks. Well, yeah, I think I'm gonna run with what you were last saying because it really does feel like a part of what brought me into somatic coaching and conscious connection, as you said. It's like how to identify safety inside of my own nervous system and my own body, and also generate that in connection, like know how to create that. Um, I'm somebody who maybe not unlike some of your listeners, did not grow up with a lot of safety, like physically uh on a basic needs level, did not have some of those needs met, and did not have protection in moments that were really vital. And I think it sent me, you know, on a journey to transform that rough, raw material into something that's really powerful that I can use as like, oh, I know how to turn that into something that lets me know about my resilience, that lets me know about what's possible. And so I spent a lot of time healing my sweet little nervous system that was like out looking on the horizon, sensing danger left and right, that learned how to be hyper-vigilant, that learned to track for the smallest signals that something was unsafe or someone was unsafe, or that I needed to go into self-protection mode. And I really have all the compassion for that shaping in me. And I have all the compassion for a lot of my clients who come to me with a similar shaping or their own journey that led them to a shape of protection in their own body. And I I really learned through time and through so many different entry points of practice and methodologies how to find different ways to understand that shaping without needing to get stuck on the why. And I think that therapy for me gets kind of stuck on the why. Like, why are you this way? Well, you're you know, your mom did this, so I'm like that, and da-da-da. But it's like if we just end on the why am I this way, it doesn't change how we're showing up today. So that's what really got me into um the somatic side of things. Yeah, going beyond just the insight and bringing it into the body of like how do I change at the level of my tissue? How do I change from the inside out so that under the same pressures of life, I'm able to make new moves. I have more range, I have more choice, more empowerment. And it became something that was so transformative for me in such a like such a more painless way than a lot of the other work I've done. I was like, I gotta go down this path and share this far and wide.
SPEAKER_03Nice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03How do you describe it to folks who are totally unfamiliar with somatic coaching and somatic work?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally. I get that question a lot, and I already spoke to some of what I would say, but to say in other words, it's like if they know about therapy, therapy tends to be looking at your past to assess why you're showing up in a certain way in your present.
SPEAKER_03It's a little more mental.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's a little bit more like let's understand. Yes, from the head down, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then coaching, somatic coaching or somatics itself is well, somatic coaching specifically, just like regular coaching, is like um looking at how you're showing up now, but looking at your future, who you what you're longing for, what you're wanting, what you want to become, and then shaping yourself in the here and now to be the person who can show up to that future. And I think the somatic lens on it, because that's kind of coaching in general, but to add the somatic lens is like instead of just having all this insight, really pulling it through the body. So, like in a session, we'll be doing somatic practices where we might elicit some of the trigger or the normal response in a very controlled way so that they can grow the capacity little by little to show up differently, to have more space and more range and return to their center. So that under the same old pressure, they're like, oh, I actually have more space now to make a choice of how I want to respond to this, instead of like, ah, I did the thing again. Gosh dang it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, beautiful. What is coming through for me as I hear you describe that and acknowledge the distinction is a lot of times our work with therapy or mindfulness is tracking thoughts. And sometimes we're able to notice our thought and then question it, you know, not identify with it, and even consider a new thought that might be more empowering, that might be more hopeful. And what I'm hearing in this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there's more of an awareness of the body. It's like, what where what is how is my nervous system in this moment? And with that awareness, just like with awareness of thought, you have more power, more agency, more sovereignty when you have that sense of awareness and aren't identifying as the thought. I wonder if it's a similar thing with the somatics where you can notice what's going on in your body and then have some agency around. Well, I mean, have some perhaps sympathy, compassion for self, and then also be able to perhaps use strategies and tools to shift the way something's occurring for you. Is that is there any accuracy there or am I kind of getting it off?
SPEAKER_02Totally. No, that that that resonates for sure. And as I heard you saying that, it had me thinking about like part of my greatest benefit in my own somatic coaching journey when I was on the receiving end more than on the offering end was learning how my unique patterns show up in my body. The things that like the what I call first responders. What are the first responders in my body that are on the way to getting triggered or on the way to getting really annoyed, or on the way to doing this thing that I'm preferring not to do? It could be for me, one of my first responders is feeling like a tightening in my chest. It feels like a rod. And when I feel that tightening in my chest, I'm like, ah, okay, I know where this tends to go. One of these places over here. And so instead of maybe denying that, that definitely suppressing that feeling would not be the answer, in my opinion. But like holding that tightening in the chest, knowing, learning how to respond to it and be like, what do you need? What do you need, you know, tightening in the chest, but what do you need part of me that's feeling unsafe right now? What do you need that is currently not being met? And really turning towards it. And then in the turning towards, there can be a softening, and there can also be more responsiveness instead of reactiveness. The reactiveness might be like, I need to change this, I'm getting triggered. But the responsiveness is like, I know how to take care of this. And I can invite you into that, or I can take care of it on my own. As an example.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, thanks so much for sharing the first responder idea. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, it's an invitation for me to bring more presence and awareness to my body and what it's telling me. I I'm curious if you come across clients or perhaps your own experience where we we might be confused. We might be like, well, I'm feeling something in my body, but is it is it like excitement about a decision, or is it anxiety because it's a bad decision? You know, sometimes there's I'm constantly working on improving my discernment process with how I can know if this is really aligned with my highest self and whether or not I should choose this or choose that. And I'm working a lot on self-trust and learning to trust myself more, but within that, also knowing that I need to keep on top of my discernment process so that I continue to make good choices. So I'm curious if there's any wisdom that wants to come. Through around how to work with our body in discerning.
SPEAKER_02Yes, totally. I really love this question that you're bringing up, and I appreciate you using such a personal example around it also. I think what's coming through for me is that I I imagine it takes most folks a while to learn the language of the body. Like learning for me, I've been learning Spanish for a long time now, and it's taken a while for me to like feel fluent in it and to understand and to feel like I'm getting you and you're able to get me, I can express myself. And I think the language of the body has its own learning curve of knowing maybe to use your example, is this excitement or is this nervousness? And then in that discernment process or that learning the language of the body, I think self-trust can be built. That's one side of it. And then another thing is like, you know, in I have a lot of background in authentic relating. And a lot of times my participants in my workshops or trainings are asking about like, well, what about using this tool in this circumstance? And I have to remind them like, we have a lot of tools under the umbrella of authentic relating. And you get to use different ones in coordination together as you become more fluent. You'll know to grab the hammer and the nail at the same time, and not just the nail, for example, to use you know, to really drill on that analogy. But I think it's the same with somatics of knowing like the language of the body and a lot of different tools of how to be responsive to it. And eventually it becomes more fluent of what things to do in what moments.
SPEAKER_03Beautiful. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. So yeah, let's actually segue into the authentic relating piece. That's how you and I connected originally. Uh, and it was such a beautifully led authentic relating uh opportunity that that Shelby, our friend Shelby, created or not Shelby, uh Kelby. I'm sorry, I have another friend named Shelby uh created for us. Shout out to Kelby. Um, and yeah, I'd love for you to share with the listeners what is authentic relating. And and actually it was new for me to understand that there's like this large tool kit around it. So I'd love to hear a little more about that too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally. Well, authentic relating is something that, as far as I understand, has been popping up around the world, we'll say, for over the last 10 years. And then a couple of organizations have codified it, made it have a system behind it of like, how are we actually doing this? Cool. And one of those organizations is Authentic Relating Training International, which I've been teaching with for several years now.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02And I'm pretty jazzed on their curriculums. I'm really proud to be one of their maybe 15 international teachers.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_02And in that, it's not the only way to understand authentic relating, but it's one way that I think is pretty, pretty spot on. And so to describe what authentic relating is in a few words, it's probably what the listeners are imagining, it sounds like relating authentically. But one thing I like people to pay attention to is jumping into this word authenticity that I think has gotten a lot of hype in the last several years, where people are like saying things like, it's just my truth, or like that's just what's real for me. I'm just telling the truth. But so often in those moments, I think that there's an opportunity for a deeper cut of the truth, which maybe is a tangent that I could get excited to talk about. But in authentic relating, it's not getting lost on the authenticity part, it's really caring about the relateful part just as much.
SPEAKER_03The relation, the relational part. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So, like if speaking your truth is my needs, my boundaries, my desires, my beliefs, my limits, the relateful part is what are your needs? What are your boundaries? What are your desires? What are your limits? And how does my truth impact you? And sticking around to care about the impact. And I think that's the real integration of the practice. And it requires us to say what we really mean, to make the implicit explicit instead of hoping someone will just infer. It requires us to own our experience and take responsibility for the experience we're having and skillfully bring that into connection and invite someone into meaning it with us.
SPEAKER_03Wow, beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. It's interesting as you were describing that. I was seeing for the first time how, in a way, authenticity and relating when when approached in a perhaps uh more, I don't know, a more shadow lens can be counterintuitive because we might be not being authentic in order to relate to someone else more, or we might be so stuck in our authenticity that we're not open to relating to other. I'd never really seen that bringing those two together, those two words that have the potential to be uh at odds with each other. There's alchemy in that. There's alchemy in those two uh uniting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when I hear what you're saying, I'm thinking about that classic um basic needs of like balancing authenticity versus belonging. Like I don't want to risk being true to myself and lose belonging as one of our baseline human needs. And so some of us forfeit belonging to ourselves to seemingly belong to group or to family or to whatever it is at the cost of self-abandoning. And I think that that's can actually be thought of as fitting in and not true belonging. So I think when we bring these things together, it's like for me to truly belong, I have to belong to myself. I'm thinking about Renee Brown said all of this stuff before as well, but belonging to ourselves and from that place, like showing up. And a way, in my own words, a question I've asked is am I showing up halfway expecting to be loved fully? Like, am I bringing just parts of myself forward, wishing that the world could love all of me? It's like, well, of course, they don't even know I'm not even giving an opportunity to be loved, seen and known in all of who I am. There's no way I'm gonna be loved in all of who I am.
SPEAKER_03That is so deep, and particularly for the queer community. And I see in a lot of the more homonorative spaces, a lot of, I'll just speak for the gay men, a lot of gay men fitting in, and they might be actually seeking belonging, but they're playing the game of fitting in and at the cost of their authenticity. So they're getting the right, you know, Gucci, sunglasses, a lot of like material stuff, right? And and and it's it's it's a perpetuation too of in in my viewpoint of us as children trying to fit in and get accepted by our parents, but we weren't necessarily able to express our truth. And so we were getting this uh affirmation, but it was affirming a false uh expression of who we are, and I think that then gets repeated in the homonormative gay culture where gay men are often putting on masks to fit in when they're really seeking full acceptance and belonging, but they can't actually have that until they belong to themselves.
SPEAKER_02Wow, exactly. I love you bringing this like through the queer lens.
SPEAKER_01I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that just feels really rich and ripe. And I I noticed feeling so much compassion as we're talking about this, because I'm like, I know it in myself also of like, it's already been so hard for us to, as queer beings in a heteronormative world, to like already break through that first layer of belonging. That by and large, by owning this identity, being true to this, we're risking a lot, even just step one, even in privileged locations like you and I are living in, where there's a lot of acceptance by and large. Like it's still an act of courage, it's still going against the grain, it's still, as we can see, we have plenty of examples. If we just turn on the news for a second here, it's still a time when by and large, this is already an act of unbelonging ourselves to the greater whole. So I just feel all the compassion for this impulse to like really try to belong oneself to that queer community and get those Gucci sunglasses that I didn't know was uh I don't just made that up. I don't know. I was like, is that what the game I'm doing?
SPEAKER_03So I use my point of reference is I used to go to Fire Island and I was like, you know, back when I was living in New York City, I was one of those like trying to be an A-list gay, and it was, you know, there was it felt like a prerequisite that I had a certain pair of sunglasses for that summer, you know. Um, and I do this work with GBTQ men, I do uh retreats where I'm helping them connect more with their hearts, and a big theme for us is belonging. And I'm curious, I know you do group work too. I'm curious in this context of authentic relating, how do you support folks in bringing their authenticity when their authentic expression might be an activation for someone else? How do you navigate uh creating space for all the different personalities to show up and all the different uh authentic truths to be present in a way that we can all love and support each other in that fullness of self? That's a big question, I understand.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that feels like a really important question, and I'm glad you're asking it. And I think it immediately brings me back to something we were talking about a little bit earlier of like there's a lot of tools inside of authentic relating. And it and you know, authentic relating is just one framework for how to be able to communicate and show up to your relationships in a way that's mutually connective, mutually more rewarding, mutually more intimate, and with more potential for shared truth. I think is kind of the possibility by saying, I'm gonna, I'm gonna enroll in using this framework more. And if we're asking the question of how does authentic relating help with this predicament you're talking about of like, okay, there's multiple truths here and those are co-activating. I think that authentic relating, you know, when we start to bring in all the tools of it, it's inviting on ourself and on our other, taking space and making space, being in that balancing act of is this for me? Is this for you? Is this for us? Is this for a greater whole? And holding that with intentionality, that not everything we're saying and doing is going to be self-serving. That sometimes what we're saying and doing is for the other person or for it's for a greater good, it's for this our connection, the third thing between us, like showing up in this way for us. And I think that balancing act of on ourself and on our other, taking space and making space is really an important piece of it. And that's that all fits to me under the category of the relateful side of things, mindful relating, not just radical honesty, yes, in and of itself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that. Yeah, there is a a piece of me that wanted to ask that question because I am starting to see some of the people are coming to my next retreat, and I'm like, oh wow, there's gonna be some interesting dynamics at play here. Um, and you know, that's part of the process and part of the alchemy, is when folks who share this this background or this this shared experience of uh being queer, but they also hold very different uh beliefs and have different uh truths. So it's uh yeah, it's always a interesting uh uh experience to approach. So I'm curious about how your queerness, what what your queer journey was like and how it has influenced and impacted your work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm my my aliveness is also kind of in the last thing you were sharing, but I'm yeah, no, please finish that aliveness first. I think I'll yeah, I'll just share there that I'm really appreciating you bringing that up because um I think holding multiple perspectives at once is a part of this work. And I and I feel I trust that you're seeing these um potential, you know, possibilities for alchemy as you're saying at your next retreat, as an example, and being able to hold multiple perspectives feels like the more advanced application of something like authentic relating, a conscious connection. And I think it's really what these times like to go back to how we started this conversation early. Yeah, it's like what these times are calling for is how do we hold multiple perspectives and being that balancing act of taking care of ourselves and taking care of our neighbors at the same time.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, that just gave me chills. Now I've got more aliveness. So yeah, there is and going back to this idea of alchemy, there's so much alchemy that becomes possible when we're in that space of belonging. And it's almost like when you have these more challenging uh positions of folks with varying truths that potentially could activate each other, it's almost like when we have those together and then in the face of that, still create this energy of belonging. There's a great potential for alchemy to happen and specifically alchemy around authenticity activation. It's like if I can be my authentic self in this group and feel like I belong while I'm expressing my authentic self with that person who is so different from me and holds such different beliefs, then I have a greater capacity to bring that authentic self-expression to other spaces where I might be afraid of not belonging. Does that resonate?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it's also like in that I'm hearing um an invitation for the authenticity to oneself or staying true to oneself to not be in direct threat just because the person across from you is holding a different experience or a different opinion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I know that there's real threat happening right now that is really in direct opposition to safety, and that that's very real. But in some of at the scale that I think you and I are talking about right here, it's like, how do I know my truth? And I it doesn't need to, I'm not so fragile with it that I need to force you to believe in it too, for it to feel true for me. Yeah, it's like it's actually like I can relax in it. I'm like, oh yeah, this is what's true for me today, and who knows? And oh, that's what's true for you. And I I really think a key here is curiosity. Like, how can I be less less fragile with my own beliefs and instead be curious? Like, how does that express itself through you? And like, tell me why you're believing in that. And like, I want to understand how is this, how are you living in that uh core value system? Like, how is and maybe you know, at the core, we're sharing the same values, they're just expressing themselves differently, also.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. Yeah, beautiful. Thanks, thanks for this. This is a uh really vibrant conversation for me. So actually, I know I started a thread around your queerness, but I also wanted to circle back to alchemy and hear your thoughts on on alchemy, because we that kind of started popping up too. So yeah, tell me about well, how how would you describe alchemy? Tell me, yeah, just let's see what wants to come through around alchemy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally. Um, well, you know, as uh what was it, alchemister?
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Who came through today?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that this, you know, I think the word alchemy probably means uh a lot to your listeners. You know, that classic example of turning lead into goal, turning source material into something more valuable. I think that my uh life curriculum, we'll call it, has given me plenty of opportunities to turn source material into something more valuable. And for me to actually embrace that as a source point for my superpower and like trusting that life knew that I could take this on and really make something meaningful out of it has really helped me embrace a lot of things that could have been and have been quite hard to navigate for a time. And so I really think alchemy at its you know, cleanest, clearest point for me is like, how do I take what life is giving me? Yeah, and really blend with that, accept that, move with it, and make space for the opportunity of that acceptance and of that transformation and that transmutation into something that is actually meaningful. And I I see the human spirit doing this left and right all over the place. I'm not the first, and I'm certainly not the only, but I'm I'm really down with with this concept of alchemy for sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's so beautiful, and it certainly invites in a deeper sense of gratitude for the stuff that feels really shitty at times, you know, where you're like, why did I have to have these alcoholic parents or you know, for me, or whatever it is that we were born into. And you know, from my vantage point, I do think that there's a possibility that we chose these life, these lives that we stepped into, that there was a part, there was an incarnation where we said, okay, I want those challenges, and those challenges are going to be the thing that I need to evolve myself to the next level. And so that helps me remember that there are great merits in taking the what if you call it source material, the the which for me uh yeah is a lot of trauma. Um, and being able to alchemize it and it it into some great gifts and yeah, to get to feel the the gratitude for that that opportunity, that possibility.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Thank you for sharing that. And I feel touched to know like what you've some of what you've had to alchemize in this lifetime already.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you. So yeah, going back to the the queer thread, how how was is that part of your source material or uh how definitely. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I imagine, you know, in this, yeah, I feel like overall as a as queer folk walking the earth, like we're in a we're in new times, but you know, still still so far to go. So, you know, I imagine you and I are similar in age. And I I grew up on the East Coast though, and so I grew up in a place where uh I didn't have a single out example of queerness. I had not, to my knowledge, ever actually met a queer person. And there I am, 17-year-old Ash in my little high school, and I found out that gay marriage was illegal. And in that moment, here I am thinking I'm a great ally. And I like wrote something to the newspaper, and I'm like, listen, and I like interviewed like someone who I perceived might be queer, like a teacher in our school. And I interviewed someone who I knew was very religious and in their expression of religion, very anti-gay marriage. Wow, and I let the interviews speak for themselves, playing my yes, love that, and then I submitted it to the newspapers. I wish I could find it now as uh ally. And I was in the Gay Street United Club, which was like uh four members. And then it was actually through watching the L word, which maybe some of your listeners are familiar with, I would imagine so. Um, that I saw my first you know, representation is so important. And I was like, Oh, you can be a gay person, a lesbian, a queer woman, a queer non-binary person, and have a dignified life. I had no idea.
SPEAKER_01I had no idea.
SPEAKER_02I've never seen that before. Yeah, and have fun and be, you know, express your, you know, at that point, I think I thought all queer women were, you know, quite butch. That's like the only exposure I'd ever had, or they're all, you know, we had these limited archetypes, limited representation. And I was like, well, I guess I'm not that. And then I got to see, you know, not the whole complete, most healthy examples. Of queer culture, but was finally exposed to something more. And at the end of finishing all seasons, I called my best friend and I said, Oh my gosh, I think I'm bye. And then she said, Uh, I'm glad you, I'm glad you know now. I've I've known this whole time. And I was like, and then I told my next best friend, and she said, Um, that's totally fine. Just don't come on to me. And then I immediately went back into some sort of closet. And I was like, okay, I have to wait until I well, first I was like, oh, now I'm a predator to women. I this is the last thing I wanted. And then I was like, I'll just wait till I move to California and go to college. And you know, I could go on and on about this journey, but I think I'll fast forward a little bit to just say that it took me then a whole decade of identifying as a bi person to realize, you know, after taking another break and submerging myself in another type of media, just reading a bunch of books. And when I say taking a break, I mean I was celibate for six months. And in that celibacy, like it was like a sacred celibacy container that I chose to embark on. And I didn't even flirt with anybody. I just really purified my own space, you know, my own temple. Yeah. And in that I was like, oh my gosh, I don't think I actually ever want to date a ban again. I don't think that's ever been right for me. I think that was kind of like compet still working its way into my life. And after that, I was like, oh, I'm a gay genderqueer person. How exciting!
SPEAKER_01Work. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the alchemy of I guess, like so many, you know, at one point feeling like this loss of so much time. All of my 20s, not living in a centered understanding of my true identity. Like I do feel that loss a lot. And I feel the loss of this need to, you know, I'm sure this is gonna be quite a familiar phenomenon for your listeners, but like to come out, there's no singular coming out experience. We're coming out all the time, maybe every day over and over again. And even that is like it's empowering, and it's also it's hard. It's hard to come out again and again and again. And um yeah, I'm still in the active alchemy of all of this, truly. And I feel rested in my identity, yeah, but I feel unrested in like the fight that we have to keep fighting every day just to to live our lives and to love who we love. Um, but I let it empower me, the alchemy of that, I guess, to try and bring it around. It's like I'm I'm not gonna give up, I'm not gonna give in because it's hard. I I'm gonna make sure that there's more representation. That when I facilitate rooms, that someone could look at me at the front of the room and be like, I never saw someone like that who identified as gay and who was holding that position. And that I get to be an example that I didn't get to see. It's one way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing that story. That's so beautiful and so inspiring. Yeah, thank you. Oh, yeah, and I certainly my story has many parallels, and yeah, I relate very much to that story, and also yeah, get to keep alchemizing as well, and to get to do it through my work too, and to do it through this podcast by having people like you come on and and share and um creating that that possibility for people to hear their stories in in my guests is um something.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for doing that. Yeah, for being a platform of of representation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you. Oh, yeah. Well, let's start to wrap up. You know, one of the things that we didn't talk about, which was one of our original connections, is our uh love for Lake Attiton and ecstatic dance. So before we get into like closing, closing statements, yeah. Anything you want to share, maybe about ecstatic dance as a practice and how it has served you and or has it brought you joy, or anything you want to share about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, to me, the intersection of uh dance and Lake Atitlan for me is like my years abroad, and that I spent about five years living nomadically and just following in in large part dance of all kinds contact improv, ecstatic dance, five rhythms, gaga dance uh at a point, and just um wow, it's it was the first entry point to be in my body and to express through my body, and to do that in community has felt so amazing, and to do that around the world has been such a special gift. And I'm sure, as you know, at Lake Yatilana's got tons of dance happening every single day, probably in that little expat community there in San Marcos. Um so yeah, it's it's so beautiful to get to dance that way. But you know, as I say this, I I have to admit, part of my mind is on how for me I had to leave a place like Lake Attilan because it's hard to see the locals not dancing on the dance floor with us. And if I if I wasn't equipped to fully integrate and do something about that, I was like, I don't know that it feels right for me to continue dancing here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And there's certainly, you know, it didn't feel like a very queer celebrated um.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was typically the only queer on the dance floor. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Same. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But I do have a vision of us being on an ecstatic dance floor together someday. Maybe, maybe in LA. I've got a friend who who hosts a ecstatic dance in LA, uh uh Atassier. I don't know if you know that person, but they have to Yes, yes, I do.
SPEAKER_02Oh, cool. Yeah, I've been I've been to their ecstatic dances. I've been, you know, really going to deep dance here in LA and I'll do that. Yeah. So I'll give you the details on that. And anyone else listening, check out Deep Dance Saturdays at Soho Dance in LA if you if you're nearby.
SPEAKER_03Work. Fabulous. Well, thank you so much. What words might you want to leave with us if there's anything else that wants to come through as we close up today?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, thank you for that question.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I guess just in the spirit of everything we've covered today, it's like I hope that these words of this conversation offers you one more data point of feeling like you're not alone in whatever you're feeling, and uh a little more trust in life and the mystery of life and trust in yourself to be able to alchemize whatever sourced material you're being handed into the life you're longing for and the life that you're you're here to live.
SPEAKER_03Oh, thank you, thank you. All right, beloveds, thank you so much for listening. It's been such a pleasure. Please check the show notes to connect with Ash and learn more about their work. And also you can learn more about me and connect with me there as well. Thanks again. Until next time. Oh my goddess, beloveds, what a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon, okay? And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time. Peace.