Queerly Beloved
Join your host, Wil Fisher (AKA "I Am Sylvia Wil Gather Rainbow"), for playful and profound interviews with amazing LGBTQIA+ peeps working in the field of spirituality and personal growth. Wil is a life coach, spiritual healer, and drag queen who loves getting super wu and chatting with fascinating folx about all things spiritually queer and queerly spiritual. You'll love hearing guests' spiritual path stories and gain knowledge as they share discoveries, insights and wisdom. Plus, these interviews tend to be a lot of fun- so expect to have some of that as well...!
Queerly Beloved
Surrendering into Freedom with Simon Magnus
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In this episode, Wil Fisher sits down with Simon Magnus, a facilitator, teacher, and creator who has spent the last 25 years blending movement, intimacy work, conscious kink, ecstatic dance, somatic practice, and theatre into powerful, playful, and transformational experiences. Simon creates bold yet safe spaces where connection thrives—inviting people to drop performance, meet honestly, and explore embodied love, surrender, and truth.
Together, they dive into a rich conversation on sacredness, presence, play, sexuality, surrender, and self-discovery. They explore how conscious kink can become a healing and transformative practice, how improvisation and intimacy share the same essential ingredients, and why reverence, curiosity, and embodied presence can open the door to more freedom, peace, and aliveness.
Together, they explore:
- Sacredness, reverence, and the power of presence
- Animism and relating to the world as alive
- Enoughness and the paradox of self-development
- The connection between improv, creativity, and erotic expression
- Surrender as a practice of trust, attunement, and embodiment
- How conscious kink can support healing and transformation
- Exploring hidden parts of self through ritual, archetype, and play
- Pleasure, pain, and the path toward deeper peace
- Why adult play matters—and what it can teach us about intimacy and freedom
Links + Resources
Learn more about Simon: www.playfull-living.com
The Rite of Surrender retreat: www.terraviva.love/rite-of-surrender
Register for the Q&A call: Zoom registration link
Learn more about Wil: www.wil-fullyliving.com
Awakened Hearts for Single Gay Men: www.wil-fullyliving.com/singles
Weirdly beloved, we are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually queer and queerly spiritual. I'm Sylvia Will Gather Rainbow, a spiritual life coach, retreat, host with the most and a dragon queen, and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks or simply sharing some wisdom of my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. Alright, let's get super wooed together in this spiritual AF. Queer AF Cosmic Container. And let's stop. Hello, beloveds, and welcome back to another episode of Queerly Beloved. Today I'm joined by Simon Magnus, a facilitator, teacher, and creator who spent the last 25 years blending movement, intimacy work, conscious kink, ecstatic dance, somatic practice, and theater into bold, playful, deeply transformational experiences. Simon creates spaces where people can drop performances, meet each other more honestly, and explore what becomes possible when embodiment, trust, and connection take the lead. This June, I'll be supporting Simon as well as former guest of the pod, Shadi Terra, at their retreat in Spain called The Rite of Surrender, a journey into conscious kink, power, and ritual. It's gonna be juicy. So check the show notes for more info on that. So in this convo, we dive into a rich and wide-ranging exploration of sacredness and presence, what it means to live in deeper relationship with ourselves and each other and the world around us. We explore how play can become a pathway to trust and why surrender is such an essential part of intimacy and creativity, and how conscious kink can open the door to healing, self-awareness, and profound transformation. We also get into the surprising overlap between improvisational theater and sexuality and spiritual practice. We chat about the paradox of self-development and enoughness, and we look at how rituals and reverence can shift the way we move through life. And then we've finally talked about why exploring different parts of ourselves through archetype work in intentional space can give us more freedom and more choice in everyday life. This conversation is equal parts thoughtful and playful and full of insights, and I'm so excited to share it with you today. Enjoy. Simon, my dear, welcome to Queerly Beloved. Thank you. I'm so excited to connect with you today. I'm really happy to be here. Yay. And I'm gonna jump in and I want to let you know that this first question is a bit of a creative one. So if it's helpful, I can go first. But the question is for you to tap into this moment and to really get in touch with who you are in this moment, and then to tell me who you are in this moment, but do so by describing a drag avatar that embodies that. And when I say a drag avatar, it could be like a queen or it could be like something from nature, but who are you in this moment? Use a drag avatar to describe it.
SPEAKER_03I love that. So when you started off, I was like, oh, I'll probably let you go first and all that. And then when you were saying it, I just felt it in my heart, just went yes, I suddenly felt like this um anime character. Almost like a um I don't even know the name, like the one in Pokemon, the little boy in Pokemon that is kind of going around and kind of like feeling quite like creative and mischievous and going around kind of in nature finding things. And I think kind of right now that that's probably my drag avatar, something between that and a Pokemon. But at the same time, I honestly have no idea what a Pokemon is. It's based very much on cultural pictures that have like fed into my reality.
SPEAKER_00I like it. It feels very exploratory and curious and playful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm feeling it feels very connective, it doesn't feel like it's on its own, it feels very much like it's out to seek uh connection with other things.
SPEAKER_00Oh, beautiful. Yeah, I'll I'll share mine in a moment, but that just made me think of some writing that I've been working on today, which is around animism. And and what I was reflecting on in this piece that I'm working on is how I was very much an animist as a child, that as a child I understood the world to be alive. I understood that the plant has some kind of consciousness or spirit about it, and that even my cup, like in a way, it has some kind of energy about it. And I related to the world in this animist approach to life that that believes that all things have a unique energy. Um, and so when I was when I was reflecting on that, it was reminding me of that energy you just described, of that connectivity, you know, as I would move through the world, it's like instead of just taking a sip out of this cup that is, you know, this object, it's like, oh, thank you, cup. Oh, this fun little cup I get to hold. And now I get to be with this little straw, this straw. Now I get to feel it, you know, and to be in relationship with all that is in a very alive way.
SPEAKER_03When you say that, like it makes me think about um kind of had this recent reflection about kind of what is sacredness. And because I've been trying to kind of question like sacredness and like how it steps outside of kind of religious doctrine or outside of like an idea of that. And one of these the thoughts that came to me was that sacredness is having deep reverence in the present moment. And it's it kind of really interlinks with what you're saying here of like just the moment to kind of be in relation with the straw on your cup in relation to each of these things, is almost having reverence in that thing that brings an act of meaning into that, and it's that meaning that creates sacred relationship and that creates sacredness that can be interlinked and understood by anyone.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so beautiful. And it requires that presence, it requires that being in the moment. I'm not just mindlessly grabbing this, I'm being in the moment, I'm feeling it, I'm experiencing it, I'm receiving it with gratitude, with appreciation, with reciprocity. And and for me, a lot of that comes from yeah, presence, from uh openness and curiosity, um, and and from yeah, just being connected from this heart-centered place of of gratitude. And and I think reverence is a great word for it too. Yeah, because yeah, sacredness, everything can be sacred, every act can be sacred.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. For for me, it came like I got this massive reflection when I was uh working with the shaman in Peru, and I was watching the way he walked around the room, and it wasn't what he was doing, it was the way his feet literally touched the ground piece by piece, and there was a reverence in the way that he walked in each step. Nothing was thrown away, nothing in his action, nothing in his movement was chucked away. It all had this edge of sacred relationship in it, and it just it literally watching this guy walk changed the way that I saw myself in the world, and it doesn't mean that I'm remembering that all the time and remembering at every moment to be doing that, but it opened up a new possibility for me to like view the way that I my actions were in the world and the way that I behaved uh in relation to my environment.
SPEAKER_00I love that, and I love that idea of nothing is thrown away, that deep intentionality, and and often I'm able to go there in ritual space, which I we're gonna get into in this conversation for sure. And I love observing, I've also had similar experiences of observing folks on that level, operating at that level, where it's almost like their life is a ritual, that they are always in that state of intentionality and presence where everything has meaning and reverence, and that's a beautiful place to aspire to, you know.
SPEAKER_03I like that you say aspire to. Yeah, yeah, certainly not there, but you know, but I think for me it's like I'm not sure I actually personally aspire to that, but I I I find it a beautiful um reference point that I can drop into. I don't think it is my journey in the world to be in that level of reverence at all times. That doesn't feel like it could also I'm I'm very open to being like, well, I I'm that is a bypass of the truth of the blah blah blah. But the way that I feel right now and the way that I feel in alignment with myself, that doesn't feel like what is most alive for me, but it feels like a reference point of times that I can step into that, and it gives me more depth and more relationship. And uh yeah, I I think from for me personally, it's it's maybe it's not an aspiration because I feel that I've already got something there, but I don't feel like it's something I want to grab and hold on to. Yeah, um, yeah, and I'm also aware that um I do want more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess that that's what I would express is for me, it's not necessarily reaching that level, but to have more of it in my life, to to bring more sacredness, that that lens of sacredness, that that approach of ritual, that that presence and that meaning and that connection to to bring more of it in. And you know, again, the reflection this morning was how as a child it was just natural. As a child, I was in relationship with everything because my heart was so open that it just was natural for me to feel so happy to be seeing a plant and hanging out by it and sitting by it, or to love my my you know, my toy as if it were alive, you know, um, because in some ways it is. And so, yeah, I've found that you know, in ceremonies and plant medicine ceremonies, or in other meditative spaces, I've been able to go there, go back to that place. And so my my aspiration is really to do it more often and and more frequently, yeah. Beautiful. Why do you think it goes? I mean, I would say that we are in a society that it isn't that isn't set up for us to be in relationship with all things, and I I think it would goes against uh the the programming of consumerism to actually care about the planet and to have a meaningful and and loving and caring relationship with all things and all people. And and I think that part of that is the pace of life, and and it there's simply not time for that intentionality. When you talk about, you know, and there is, of course, but in our in our minds where it feels like everything is happening so fast, there isn't time. When you talk about the shaman like taking each step in that mindful way, it's like there's no time for that. I feel like the the the world we live in uh doesn't lend itself well for us to keep coming back to that presence and that sacredness of all things.
SPEAKER_03Makes me think when you share that, like it's something about enoughness. Like our entire world is based on nothing is ever enough. And within that moment, like in that child moment of like everything's alive and all that, you don't want anything more. Yeah. Because everything is alive in this moment. The imagination and the body, the relationship with the with the plant or the teddy bear or whatever that might be, it's all fully alive and fully there. So what more could I possibly want? And we live in a society that is completely designed to say, well, you want this, this, this, and this. You can't have all these things. Yes. And yeah, I'm sort of, yeah, I've never really thought about those two things together in that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's beautiful. And the yeah, the kryptonite, right, to not enoughness is presence when we're able to come back to the present moment and to really anchor in the knowing, the deep knowing that we are enough and that we have enough, you know, and as children, we we are more naturally present. Um, for us, for us uh adults, often we're in that future tripping, or I'll speak for myself. I'm often in that future tripping mode of oh, once I get that next cell or that next check or that next object or whatever it is, then I'll have what I'm looking for. Um, instead of just remembering that this present moment is all that is, and it is absolutely enough.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think in that um coming to that it's enough and I am enough, and just who I am right now is enough. Yes, and I think that in that is the paradox of self-development. Because we're both in the paradox of like I am enough and coming into a deep acceptance of this is just who I am, yes, and at the same time, there are certain ways and behaviors that I am in the world and that I am to myself that uh are not serving me and creating a certain way of being. And that's that that for me is so the paradox of self-development that both have to be developed simultaneously, that we have to be in deep acceptance of who we are, and at the same time saying, actually, these police places are holding me back. Yes, and that's that that push and pull between the two is almost what keeps um us interested, but also if we go too deeply into one or the other, they become a trap.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. One is stagnation and stuckness, feeling like, oh, I am who I am, and it's a fine, and it's I am the way I am, that's it. You know, stubbornness is in that energy. And then the other is yeah, that uh scarcity, that desperate scarcity, like, oh, if only I did this thing, if only I know, and and folks, you know, we see it with folks who are going from one retreat to the next or one modality. And yeah, I certainly have been that that side of things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. It's the thing that there's always something wrong. I will continue looking and continue digging because there's always something wrong. And yeah, and I've definitely been in that. And yeah, the way out is to just accept that this is what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you're right, it's that challenge of holding both of those things true at the same time, which is you know complicated. I often often talk to clients about it around I use the example of like someone who's looking to lose weight, you know, that that they that the ideal is for them to be totally happy with their body and their weight as it is now, while also being really excited about the goals that they're working towards and to hold both of those at the same time. And it yeah, it can be a complicated and confusing, confusing thing for our brains to get around. But all right, so wait, I I have not shared my tragedy. I love that we're getting so into it so quickly. Um, yeah, today I have been having a ton of hummingbird energy right outside the window where I'm working. And so I feel like that energy is in me. That's this like you know, flittering of wings. I'm just getting over being sick for a long time. And so my energy is coming back. And so yeah, I'd say my drag avatar is a butter, is a uh hummingbird today. Um, was I saying butterfly? No, hummingbird. Yeah, you're just started to hummingbird. Okay, good, good, good. Yeah, the hummingbirds have just been like wild outside my window, um, which has been so exciting. And yeah, I'm I'm feeling that kind of uh spring is in the air, you know, as we as we move into March and uh we be move towards the the new season. And so there's just a little like flitter in in the heart. And and it I will say that there's a mix of uh, you know, often people talk about that that excitement versus nerves, you know, and I would say there is kind of a mix of that. So it's like there's a flitter in the heart, and part of it is excitement of of what's to come. And then there's also, you know, within that that flitter, that that infinity symbol that their wings make, there's a part of it that is also a little nervous, a little anxious about you know what's going on in the world right now, some things in my personal life. And so I'm I'm holding, I'm holding both, going back to the uh holding two disparate things. Um, yeah, excitement and joy, and also some uh worry and and fear. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. The horrible thing about that is actually that kind of balance can often make you feel quite alive.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I know, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's energizing for sure. Yeah, um, but that's okay. Um, so yeah, let's rewind the tape a little bit. We've gotten into some really amazing things, and I'm sure we'll circle back to some of them, but I would like to cover some of your origin story because I feel like we share some commonalities in it. And so tell, you know, tell us about what has brought you into the work that you're currently passionate about. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03Um it's a difficult question because my origin story is not very straightforward and has been through many different iterations to get to where I am right now.
SPEAKER_00And we don't need every detail and we don't need every but so just the pieces of it that feel like relevant and interesting to share in this moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I um uh so my origin story started through theatre and through um creating improvised um interactive theatre. And I had this concept that through interactive theatre you could create transformational experiences for an audience.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um, but the only way of actually doing that was to take the actors through a transformational process. Yes. Um which um uh when you're in your mid-20s and think you know it all, um and you're basically creating performance, um gives actually a lot of freedom. Sure. Like it gave a lot of freedom to play in a therapeutic way and to play in certain places that I wasn't worrying, or none of us in the room were particularly worrying around trauma or around what might come up, or we we were just using what was coming up as material and understanding ourselves as material, which gave this real sense of uh freedom. And this was in this was 20 years ago, so this is before all the ideas of trauma informed and any of this stuff was coming to light as well. We were just kind of playing, yeah, but it gave me this amazing um foundation of kind of understanding the value of improvisation, of surrender, of letting go into things. And then I ran a theater company for about 15 years, and then when I decided to leave um and started to look at um, well, what is it that I actually want to do? I I basically left theater because I realized that the thing that interested me was the community and was rehearsals and was the creation process. The the place of performance and repetition in that I actually found very dull. It was not interesting to me whatsoever. And it was like, well, I'm I'm now creating more and more projects that have longer and longer um processes, and and I was doing a lot of work with community groups and stuff where the pro the performances wasn't the thing. And I was like, Well, how do I dive more into processes? That's funny.
SPEAKER_00You're like, we'll perform in like three years, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Exactly, exactly. Or we'll just do the whole point is we'll just do one weekend of shows. But it'll take three months getting up to that one.
SPEAKER_00Sure, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um which is beautiful, and it meant like I worked in some amazing community groups, yeah. Um but when I left it was like, okay, well, what more is there? What is my interest? And my other big interest in life was always sex. Yeah, and it became kind of like how do these things like come together? And I started to see that um great sexuality and great intimacy comes from the same place as improvisation and creativity. And so I started to develop work that overlapped these two things.
SPEAKER_00Before you move on, just I want I'd love you to expand a little bit on that point you just made. Um about creativity and about yeah, about the great sex, the the I I would I would reflect it back, not directly exactly, but that the same skills that we use for improv theater creativity, yeah, playfulness, surrender, presence are the same. Skills that are also effective and helpful in creating a really fabulous sexual experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I think in order to do good improvisation, we have to let go of our presumption of what this is about. And we have to let go into the other people on the stage. We have to let go into being inspired by what's in front of us. And we're also in the back of our heads using our tools that we have come up with before that we know work. But we're letting go of those tools. Yes. There's this beautiful expression that is not mine, but it was a teacher that I loved with in improvisation. That he talked about to be an actor, to be an improviser, is to become an acrobat of the heart. And he talked about that with a um and talked about it like a trapeze artist. That a trapeze artist spend years and years training their body and letting go into like really proper, proper thought training, training, training. But when they're on the high top and when there's no net underneath them, when they are swinging and when they let go of that thing, they have to forget everything and trust that their body fully understands and knows all material to let go. And he talked about um an actor becoming an acrobat of the heart, and I started to see that as that's also what we're doing in sexuality.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03We've got to let for great sex to emerge, whether that is because I do a lot of work within like intimacy, but also in kink, um for that to really deeply emerge, we have to like let go into what's happening here in the present moment, what's alive right now. And we've all been in sexual situations where it's like um I will use the I will go into my head, I'll use the same techniques and tools that I know work, I know how to make you enjoy this, or I want to be touched like the like these things. But actually, for me, great sexual encounter happens when all of that isn't there. Yeah, when I'm able to really just let go into the other human, and I'm able to feel a sense of freedom to bring forward my desire, my my fullness of my being into connection with another human being. And then also there's the potential in that of it also becoming something more, something bigger than just sexuality. Like I've had sexual experiences, I think we possibly all have, that have felt deeply healing. Yes, that felt deeply transformative, and that comes from a place of like really letting go.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah, that it can be spiritual experiences. And what I think is so important to this conversation and these points that you're making is that there is a trajectory I'm seeing of the opposite being a pattern that the queer culture is moving towards, which is that it is so prescribed and calculated. You know, on the apps, it's become so transactional that people want to know what you're into. And then it's almost like you map out what's going to happen in that connection. And it's letting go of any of the spontaneity, letting go of any of the in-the-moment magic that is necessary for sex to be experienced on that level that we're talking about. And then I also see it in relationships where routines become the norm. It's like, this is how I had a relationship like this where every time we had sex, it was like it had to happen in this order. Like the sheet goes down, he lies in this way, then I do this, then I do this. And it was like, this is not it for me, you know. This is like maybe somewhat pleasurable for my body, but it doesn't feel like my erotic self is alive. It's it's just you know, pushing buttons on this body robot rather than allowing this part of me, this erotic charge to get to play and experience in this ecstatic way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I I feel that actually both have value. I for me, it's it's it's not about saying I want one thing we should be doing one more than the other. I think that both have a space to play. Like, I mean, I had a very similar thing in a previous relationship where we just knew what got each other off, and there was a very specific thing that we did over and over again, and it really worked for us. Sure, it really did work for us, however, no, it wasn't expansive. No, since leaving that relationship, I have just rediscovered like what is connection, how can it be more open? How can it be more free? I didn't recognize that there was a contraction in that sexuality because we had such a good match, like we both basically wanted to do the exact opposite thing to each other, and it really turned both of us on. So I never really saw what you're talking about, that there's something else that was possible.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03And I for me, there's a there's a lot of I enjoy my sexuality, I enjoy the places where it's just pleasure, and like often if I'm on grinder and I'll I will do the whole sometimes this I want this, this, and this. Actually, often when you're with the person, for me, a lot of that stuff can disappear.
SPEAKER_00That's true.
SPEAKER_03A lot of that stuff can be like when there's an actual connection there, you can't really deny connection. And I think that there is something within this kind of grinder hookup thing where we can get very stubborn about kind of I want these things. Yeah, but actually the truth is I think we've all experienced it. When you meet someone and hook up with someone, uh there's this, oh, there's more here, there's chemistry here, and I think that those places of I like to get fucked, I want to sucker, da da da da, they give us a sense of safety. Yes, they give me a sense of like I'm horny and I need to let go. So by expressing this to someone else, I know that I will get these things met.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03And I think that there's a place that there's almost like what we're putting out there is a minimum of what we're looking for.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03But I think that what we get trapped in is that we don't understand it to be a minimum.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_03We think that that's the whole thing, like, and these are the things I have to respond to these things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for reframing that. That's helpful. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, great. So, okay, so moving us back into the origin story. I love this theater piece, and I'm sure I shared with you before, but I have a similar background. So I was doing applied theater, it was my master's, and I was using, well, I got my BFA in regular theater, and then I was like, this isn't really it. And then I discovered applied theater, which was all about the process, and I was so excited to just use theater and improv and all the different theatrical activities and games to explore different ideas and concepts. So I was using it specifically around uh gender conversations, so utilizing theater to explore people's relationship with manhood and masculinity with this uh theater organization I co-created called Man Question, where we worked with like inmates out of Maximum Security Prison and fraternity brothers and you know, college athletes, and then you know, gay people. We we went to like a bears event, and but it it was so fabulous to get to bring those things together, right? The the the world of exploring thoughts, feelings, consciousness, and theater. Um, and so I I love that we have that shared uh background. So yeah, let's move closer to where you are now with uh playful living and and how that came to be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so playful living actually came out of me going, what is important? What do I want to like beyond theater? What is important? Yeah, and started to sort of do a lot of research into play and understanding that play is something that is absolutely valuable to us as adults, and it's about learning how to be both in the moment, but also to not care about the results. And I think that that is the one definition of play that I really love is it's doing something for the sake of doing it without worrying and thinking about where it's trying to get to. And we live in a world that is constantly trying to optimize, that is constantly trying to say, well, this thing will lead to this, this, and this. And we lose this sense of play because it's in play that we get to explore, we get to experiment, we get to discover more aspects of who we are. And I think the thing that we get stuck in as adults is we think play is for the children, or we think it's childish. So often if you're in a group of adults working with play, they will suddenly start behaving like children. And they'll start being silly and all these things. But if you actually watch children play, especially like under five, they're not always laughing and joking. They often take their play extremely seriously. And watch two children playing house, pretending to be these things, they're not laughing and joking all the time, they're in something very serious that is very for them. And yet, as adults, we lose that particular sense, and we think it's just about connecting to childness. So, this is where kind of I came up with kind of this idea of playful living, which is or was, I should say, um, a way of looking at sexuality, looking at kink, looking at dance, looking at connection was through this particular lens.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. Yeah, I've never actually considered that. I I think about and talk a lot about play, it's a big part of my work. And I had not really considered that idea that when adults proactively intentionally play, they do move into that childlike state, which I think is beautiful and important and such a gift. But there is a little bit of a disconnect in that when children are playing, they aren't necessarily just being silly the whole time. And so, how do you support folks? I'm assuming that having heard you say that, that one of the ways that you are serving is helping people shift into more serious play or play where they're not being so silly. What does that look like? How how does that how does that show up?
SPEAKER_03I think this can link very into um kink work and into ritual work. So that's where it kind of really comes together. It's about letting go into the practice. So like I will do kink rituals where people like uh set up intention before, set up a lot of um consent, boundaries, um, trust, all of these things are set up before, and then we go in and we it's the same sort of theme coming through here. We let go of those things. It doesn't mean that we we put them aside, but we're not putting them at the forefront of our heads. Yes, and it's within kink space with all the same thing happens within sexuality space, the same thing also happens if you're doing let's somatic trauma work. Um we are letting go into the moment and allowing the moment to reveal what is most important in this connection in this particular moment and trusting that that will be enough and that will show itself up enough. And rather than coming in with these are the things that I want to work on, and it goes it goes back into what we were talking about before the paradox of self-development, yeah, of like both acceptance and this, and it also reminds me actually reminds me a bit of uh if don't mind me saying about you on the retreat last year, yeah, please of where you what because you came to our retreat uh year and a half ago, yeah, and I think what came out of that retreat for you was so not what you were going in for. Yeah, it so like revealed itself by you just being there so fully as yourself, and as like I'm in the play of the entire environment, and I'm gonna let it reveal itself to you, and from that came something that was much more than I think you would ever have planned on coming out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Yeah, absolutely. And actually, pretty sure I have a whole podcast episode about my experience at Conscious King. So I'll make sure I put that in the show notes. But it immediately makes me think of one particular moment at Conscious King when we went on a hike down to the waterfall to go be with nature and feel the erotic connection with nature, which I loved. And I remember in that moment we had the option of wearing as much or as little clothing, hiking clothing as we wanted, and I ended up just stripping down completely because you know, how often do you get to hike naked to a waterfall? Um, and it was raining, and it was like that presence that I was pulled into hiking, you know, we were all hiking in silence, and there was the mud underneath my feet, and my body's naked, and I'm feeling the rain. And it was in that moment and during that hike that this memory came online of this father wound. Um, and and yeah, when I originally decided to go to the retreat, there was no inclination or idea that I would be addressing a father wound that then I later got to address in a beautiful ritual space. But it was like that, that's when it started, was during that hike. It was like spirit was like, here's what it was like it started to give me little pieces, little clues and hints. And then I was able to bring that into the ritual space uh and essentially heal that wound through serious play, I suppose, you know, as as we we talk more about this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, really beautiful. It's a really good reminder of actually sometimes we just need a bit of space to connect to ourselves to allow the thing to emerge. And other times it comes purely out of the connection itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think you know, what was so helpful for me in the way you and Shoddy facilitated was that the space was so well held that it gave me permission to surrender and to let go of control and let go of the part of me that likes to calculate and plan and figure it all out, the sort of analytical aspect of self. And so, in that holding of the space, I was able to surrender into the present moment. And I know that surrender is a big part of your work. And so, yeah, I'd love you to share any any any thoughts on surrender and maybe in the context of supporting folks that you're facilitating to step into that state of surrender.
SPEAKER_03But I really like that you talked about um having that space to just let go into something, and I think I'm gonna talk about specifically from a kink perspective. Sure, yeah. Um uh it does go throughout everything, but like it's a very easy way to talk about it under a microscope. Yeah. Um so like uh when you're talking about letting go and really allowing yourself to let go into something, uh one of the keys of being able to do that is feeling trust, is feeling support, is feeling care. And that can really uh be something you can build into a kink scene. So from a submissive perspective, when it's kind of it's about you and it's about your journey, it's letting go into not just surrendering to the person that's in the dominant role, but also surrendering to yourself and surrendering to your the way your body wants to move. There's this there's can be this idea sometimes within Kink of um if I'm in a submissive, I'm just gonna lie back and let things happen to me.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03But there's a place that I really feel that is possible where we come into active surrender, where we let go and we are also alive and in relationship with our letting go. We're not just um passive to everything. And I think that this is a real key part of being in submission, is how to fully let go and fully trust, but also to remain an active participant in my experience. And then the other's place of surrender, which often isn't spoken about, is the dominant is also in a surrender position. That you you have to take it goes back to this acrobat of the heart idea. You take all of what you've set up before, and then you let go into the role that you're in, into the creativity, into the body of the human in front of you, and you allow yourself to surrender and let go of all this stuff and trust that creativity and ideas and inspiration is going to come through you in relation to the human in front of you. Because what can really throw us off again and again and again is trying to make something happen, trying to force something, and and trying to actually uh go by a script or go by a decision that we made previous and all that, and we miss so much of what's happening in the moment. And so much of our society is geared towards needing to prove ourselves. Go back to the thing we started at the beginning, um feeling not enough. And by feeling not enough, we try to prove ourselves, and that means that we are enough, but actually in surrender, in really letting go, we've got to trust the pause. We've got to trust that just because there's nothing here for me in this moment doesn't mean that if I stop, some inspiration won't come. And for me, when I'm working with people, it's about teaching people to trust that inspiration comes when we let go of trying to find it. I think we've all had this experience, like when you're kind of trying to work something out and your brain is like mulling it over again and again and again, and then it's like when you're doing the dishes, suddenly it pops, the answer pops into your head. So a lot of what I see my role is is creating more and more moments for this space that ideas can pop to come out of the head, out of the constant thinking. But we have to learn the tools and techniques first so that we're able to trust again and again more and more that inspiration and intuition will come down when needed.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so good. Yeah, it makes me think about that spaciousness to, yeah, I I risk repeating what you just said, but it's like giving yourself that spaciousness to let the organic natural inspiration just sort of bubble up like a geyser within you, and and then for it to be expressed. And what I find interesting, you know, in in kink space, that can look like, you know, as the Dom, for example, not doing anything for a moment, you know, to just like hands off and just let your sub wait, you know, which is an act in itself, and giving the space for seeing what wants to come next, what what step wants to come through. And what I'm what I'm seeing in that too is like there can be some pressure, right? That pressure to perform. And so I also currently work with an improv troop and we meet at my house every week. We're meeting here last week or last night, and there's some training that gets to happen in that, in that we we have eyes on us while we are allowing inspiration to come through, right? And so it's a practice, it's like a muscle, and it's it's it's reminding my nervous system or rewiring my nervous system to know that inspiration does come through and that I don't need to force it, and that the more that I allow it rather than forcing it, the more interesting and inspired and magical it will be. But it's it's certainly a muscle that for me I've seen requires some or is aided by practice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I completely agree with you, and I think that this can be one of the beauties that a kink space can bring, is it gives the space to practice that muscle because the reality is a lot of the places where people get scared about domination or get fixated on one thing and I've got to do this one thing over and over again, um, closes down that inspiration. And the reality is if you put your face this far, like six inches away from the face of another human being, and you don't move, and you tell the other human being not to move, more is gonna happen in five minutes of putting your face there while you tell the other human being not to move than will happen in like 10 minutes of you grabbing tools and working out what to do and grabbing and spanning. Just that stillness of telling somebody else don't move and I will keep my face six inches away from you and I will just leave it there. I can then allow that space to sizzle. And there's this thing that I think that we can also, I mean, I I definitely am guilty of this, but sometimes in that sizzle, it feels so overwhelming. It feels there's so much intensity in that moment that I want to like uh to turn the gas off that intensity. So I do things to gas off that that intensity. And I think part of what we have to learn as humans is to be with that intensity, but also to learn with to be with discomfort, because that intensity can feel intensely uncomfortable. And once we learn how to be deeper with discomfort, we can be deeper in a space of not knowingness, in the mystery, and in a deeper space of surrender, because the discomfort is something that we get used to. It's the muscle that you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I feel like we're already going there, and maybe all the points have been made. But what are some ways that exploring kink and having these uh scenes or these kink experiences can support folks in their regular day everyday life? And what what tools can be extracted from these experiences of ritual kink, of conscious kink?
SPEAKER_03Wow. Um, yeah, I don't want to repeat. Um, I'm trying to think of how to advance that without repeating things. Sure, sure. Um, so I think there's everything that we've already spoken about of learning to be present, learning to surrender. There's also places that we can explore parts of our psyche that we don't get to explore other places. Yes, the bratty part of ourselves, the part of me that wants to be out of control, or the part of me that wants to control everything and make everything my way. Um, the part of myself that um has a trauma around not feeling good enough can express and can explore through kink methods. So there's a real transformational therapeutic aspect that can be brought into kink ritual space that is very directly related to what's happening in that moment. And I think that as we're talking about before, like this as being a microscope, it intensifies what's happening. So then that can go into your regular sexuality or vanilla sexuality, that can also go into your everyday conversations and like how am I in relation to someone just having a chat? It's also like I I do a lot of work with dance, um and it deeply can go like dance can be really like I think the way that dance and kink connect, it's almost like a circular place, like it's a letting go into the moment of what's there. And I think that when we learn to let go, when we learn to be with discomfort, we learn not to be rushing and dashing all the time to try to make things other than what they already are, we start to find peace. And I think that that is what essentially is the deeper thing that we are all looking for as humans is a sense of inner peace. And everything from what we're trying to be sold in the consumer world to what we're trying to get to in the self-development world is trying to sell us a sense of inner peace or inner silence. And I think that within Kink, it is one of the aspects and one of the tools that can allow us to get to that space of inner silence and gives us a reference point for that.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. Yeah, there's not much else that is more valuable than that inner silence, that inner peace. And and then to me, it's that inner peace mixed with that inspiration, that that moment of joy and inspiration. It's it's that those things working in tandem, right? To be able to go into that deep peace, knowing that there's waves of inspiration and joy, you know. So for me, it's like deep peace and like pure joy are like the the combo that we're all after. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_03I love that. But I also think there's a third part to that actually, when you say kind of deep peace and joy, there's also the peace around being okay with your pain. Because I think that like we're never gonna get rid of pain in our systems, and so there's something about kind of having being in a peace place that allows us to also be with and okay with the pain that's in our systems as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, something that has been interesting for me in my exploration of Kink has been experiencing pleasure in pain and being able to reframe pain because essentially everything in life is for us. The worst parts are hard to experience as valuable, but they are in service of our soul's evolution, they are in service of us having this full spectrum human experience, and so Kink has helped me reframe physical pain in a way that is exciting, pleasurable, and gives me something beyond an unpleasant experience. Um, yeah, so that reframe's been helpful for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, makes me think of that great quote. Um, pain isn't inevitable, suffering is optional. Oh, that's good. That's really good. I love that. I love that quote. It's like, yeah, because it's that's in the piece. It's like, how do I learn for my pain to be there, but to not suffer in that pain?
SPEAKER_00Nice. So you were talking a little bit about like the archetypes and being able to have that space to uh explore the different parts of self. And I'm just curious when when that exploration happens, what where does it go? Like what is the value in that? Is it in in some ways it makes me think or get curious and suspicious of, well, if I'm playing with that bratty persona, am I adding fuel to it? You know, uh awakening it in a way that's affirming it so it's going to be more present. Or perhaps it just do does need an expression, and then in an expressing itself, that that flame of energy will die down. Or I'm just curious how that works and your vantage point.
SPEAKER_03I think that um I think it's a really good point you're saying. People can be very scared of like once I unleash that pace, sure, will I ever be able to put it down? Sure. I think one of the big problems that we have as humans is we try to keep down the parts of ourselves that we think are disagreeable, that we think that other humans don't like. And they leak out. The brat comes out in places that maybe we don't want it to come out. So by fully expressing it and fully tasting our bratty self, then it's no longer a shadow. It's no longer a somatic piece that we are not allowing anyone to see, especially ourselves. We're not allowing ourselves to feel it because we can feel then the brat. It's like I I've then got a reference point to feel where my brat is willing to come out in a social situation, and I get a choice. And I think that's what a lot of it can come to. I get a choice of whether to act out on my brat or not, because I've got a somatic experience of what my brat now feels like, and in that it has the potential to kind of I almost see it as you remove the battery of the wound of the behavior, so that um I then get choice over that. And it doesn't mean that I always catch it, but it means that I have more options to be in choice and in awareness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, so we've got a deeper sense of self-awareness of these parts and and more compassion for them, I imagine, and more acceptance of them. And so that's not like they're fighting to get out and finding these sneaky ways, but rather we are aware that they are part of us. They are not us, but they are part of us, and we get to be with them in a in a more graceful way, in a more agency, a more choice-filled way. Yeah. Very cool. All right. What are some of the things that we haven't tapped on that feel exciting for you to share about as we start moving towards the end of this conversation? Wow.
SPEAKER_03I feel like we've covered a lot in this conversation. Like I think I'm like, we have just like expanded the ground.
SPEAKER_00Well, we like out of the gates, we were like, we like jumped in. We were like flying like those hummingbirds and the little explorer. Yeah. So yeah, no, it's been such an exciting and fabulous conversation as I expected it to be. So yeah, I, you know, I'm I'm it I'm going to share more about the retreat, but anything you want to share about it, um, you know, I'll give you an opportunity to, and I'll make sure stuff is linked in the show notes.
SPEAKER_03Beautiful. Yeah, I mean, like, so my work is um has gone much more into the kink side of things. Um, and I've started to run with Shadi these conscious kink retreats to kind of take people into these spaces of ritual, into these spaces where you can learn how to have these tools yourself and how to play in this space, and to just be around a group of queer guys um and queer male leaning folk um who are there to also explore in this way, in this sort of openness. And it just gives me such a beautiful um passion in these things. And most of my work is with actually yeah, most of my work is with queer people now. Um and so yeah, I'm I'm running this retreat. I also run um uh ecstatic dances in Amsterdam where I'm mainly based, um uh conscious play party spaces, um stuff around sexuality, intimacy, these kind of things. Um so all these things interlink and it just feels very exciting for me. Like life feels a bit like a playground at the moment that I'm able to step in and find all these different um uh let's call them strings or modalities of which I want to bring myself in the world, of which I'm I feel that I have something to offer. So being able to offer a one-week kink uh retreat for people um feels like a really aligned position to be in.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. Yeah, well, I'm so excited to get to play a part in that and uh yeah, and to just share space with you again and this time in Espania. That's gonna be so fabulous. So, yeah, any final words, messages, uh pieces that want to come through for our listeners? If you feel complete, that's totally fine too. But just check out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's there's something in an invitation of just saying, like, what if you just don't do things the way you've always done things? Like, what does that curiosity just bring to your life? Just a place to kind of contemplate. Like I'm basically thinking about that for myself right now. So beautiful. I love that invitation.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks so much for listening, beloveds. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And as I mentioned at the top, I'll be supporting Simon and Shadi at The Rite of Surrender, a journey into conscious kink power and play, happening June 8th through 14th in Spain at the Terra Rosa Retreat Center. There's also going to be a QA call coming up soon after this episode releases on March 25th. So check the show notes and sign up. You'll also find links there to learn more about Simon and the retreat and my upcoming retreats this spring, Awakened Hearts in April and Awaken Hearts for Single Gay Men in May. Oh my goddess beloveds, what a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon, okay? And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Sending so much love and light to you today and every day. Until next time, peace.