Professional Learnings NSWPPA Educational Leadership

Service First, Leadership Always: Khalil Khay navigating educational Pathways and leadership stickyness

• NSW PPA Professional Learning • Season 3 • Episode 20

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Khalil Khay. From classroom to executive to system advocate, Khalil’s story spans three decades of transformation in NSW public education. He’s currently Principal-in-Residence K–12 in the School Excellence Directorate, previously championed curriculum reform, steered the ConnectED conference for 17 years, and been named to the Educator Hot List in four of the last eight years running.

As we close Season 3 and our final episode for 2025, the NSWPPA Educational Leadership Podcast concludes with a reflective conversation on leadership, purpose and sustaining meaningful change.

In this episode, Drew Janetzki is joined by Khalil Khay, a highly respected NSW education leader whose career spans classroom teaching, principalship, system leadership and national advocacy.

Together, they explore leadership as service, the importance of equity and moral purpose, and the value of creating multiple pathways for success across public education. Khalil reflects on his long-standing involvement with the Connected Conference, including his role as Chair, and the impact of accessible, high-quality professional learning for principals and middle leaders across New South Wales.

The conversation is grounded in key system frameworks, including the NSW Public Education Plan and the NSW School Excellence Framework, and highlights the role of sustained professional learning through programs such as the Art of Leadership Program and the NSWPPA Professional Learning Suite.

This final episode brings Season 3 to a close by returning to a central theme that has underpinned the year. Leadership is not about position or authority, but about enabling others, aligning values and doing the right work for students, schools and communities.

NSW Primary Principals’ Association

https://www.nswppa.org.au

NSW Public Education Plan

https://education.nsw.gov.au/about-us/strategies-and-reports/education-plan

 NSW School Excellence Framework

https://education.nsw.gov.au/teaching-and-learning/school-excellence-and-accountability/school-excellence

 Art of Leadership Program

https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning/art-of-leadership

NSWPPA Professional Learning Suite

https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

Connected Conference

https://www.connectedconference.com.au

Links and References:

To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue






Drew Janetzki (host):

Welcome back to Professional Learnings, the New South Wales Primary Principles Association Educational Leadership Podcast. It's really great to have your company. This podcast aligns to the values of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association. That is the values of principal well-being, principals as lead learners, as well as supporting principals to lead school operations. Remember, if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe for further updates. Now let's get into today's latest episode.

Khalil Khay (guest):

So go to the Connect Ed websites, folks. Just Google Connect Ed. But I think what led its success was literally that it was a grassroots activity and it was principled, L E, Learning by Principles, A L, you included. For principles, originally. And that's when it started at the at the Hunter Central Coast level. And then when it became a statewide adjunct to professional association conferences, but also academics-based conferences. And it became a hybrid event in that it was for all principals and also directors. But then we we changed tack and we said, well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We're going to bring the middle leaders in because the system is stronger by developing the future principles.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Today let's begin with a question. What's the single most powerful learning that has sustained your leadership through change, uncertainty, and hope? I'm honoured to sit with a leader who has walked many of these roads we face. Khalil Kay, from classroom to executive to system advocate, Khalil's story spans three decades of transformation in New South Wales public education. He's currently the principal in residence of K-12 in the School Excellence Directorate, previously championed curriculum reform and his steered Connected Conference. Held between 2008 and 2025, Khalil has been recognised nationally on the Educator Hot List between 2015 and 2022. He was a public education candidate in the 2023 election and is currently undertaking his doctorate of education at New South Wales University under supervision of Professor Parsi Salberg and Megan Stacey. He's also also the recipient of the Dr. Paul Medal Citation, which is a national fellowship from the Australian College of Educators. Khalil, great for you to be with us. Let's start. Khalil, your career has taken you from the classroom to the systems heart. Can you share a pivotal moment or a time of uncertainty, triumph, or challenge that what fundamentally, fundamentally I should say, reshaped your leadership?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Thanks, Drew. That's a really uh intriguing question. And I'll I'll call out I think like most leaders, it's the leaders that have mentored us through our own careers that have made us have those flexion moments or inflection thoughts where you say, okay. The first one for me would be when I was um a middle leader and being a relieving principal or an acting principal and uh was work with the Australian College of Educators and the Quality Teaching Academy at the time. And I had a principal whose words still resonate with me now and words that I share with many leaders I'm supporting, which is you start your career your career is always service, service to all, service to the kids in front of you, the communities and the staff around you. But you start making a difference to those kids literally in front of you, then as you grow and develop and you build your capacity, you move into that arena of adult pedagogy as well as student pedagogy and learning. So it's making a difference in the class next door, across the stage, across a grade, a faculty, and then it becomes across the school, across many schools, networks, and indeed it then grows into, depending how you you work with that, potentially across the state. So uh certainly I think what's driven me, and and that has resonated for so long, is that the joy comes no matter what the role, as long as you are enabling and supporting others to do the right thing for the students and the community ultimately. And now that can take many forms from that narrative I gave you. So it can be the kids directly in front of you, but if you can make one difference that supports principals to support their middle leaders, their executive, their beginning teachers, their parents, that is also doing that same work. So really uh you know, at a summary level, it's service to all, but it's making the right work happen as broadly as possible.

Drew Janetzki (host):

So I hear service mentor or service leadership really drives you in terms of your moral compass?

Khalil Khay (guest):

I I think so. There's been that long, that lifelong uh calling to equity, to um what's good for one is good for everyone. Um even my last school's principalship, it was that approach of this is it's not my school, we're we're but custodians of the schools that we we have the honour to lead. And no one owns a school. And the approach there was to to love the staff, to professionally and personally develop them as much as possible so they could do right by the the students in the community that uh in that school's case, Glendor was rapidly growing, uh grew over over 250 students within three years. Um but I think yeah, look, ultimately it's equity. Um serve selflessly, it's vicarious parenting too, Drew. I think we've talked about this in the past, and many colleagues have probably said similar things. You you give that unconditional love, you have to nurture yourself along the way and your health, of course. Nurture your your A-block team, you know, your admin and your your executive with you to take take your whole tribe with you, but yeah, serve.

Drew Janetzki (host):

And now in another position at a systems level, that's the same mantra that you have leading your team. Absolutely.

Khalil Khay (guest):

And and look, I I've had a very joyful experience in my career. I still feel I have a lot to do. Um, certainly with young kids, still, I've got a lot more work in me yet because I'm gonna have to keep paying those bills like everyone out there. But certainly in the systems roles, I've I've been blessed, and I do say this, um, to to have leadership as a principal in residence in curriculum with initiatives across teaching, learning, student well-being, uh, to partner in like yourself with School Leadership Institute, but um most recently, as you said, with School Excellence Directorate, so the the principal school leadership and EV team, the CSUS team, strategic school improvement. Uh, it's really a joy to make the right work happen from the front end, to be proactive, to design it right so that it all talks, it lands well, and it actually can alleviate that that we talk about cognitive load each and every day in our classrooms, but the most critically important part, I think, in our role the higher we go in in our leadership is is alleviate that admin and cogni admin burden and that cognitive load and create alignment and opportunity so that you can get the right work done.

Drew Janetzki (host):

And you thrive in that and you know, it must be a privilege to watch and see from your perspective schools and and the growth that they've come through and you look at the school excellence framework and you see where the where they started and the journey and the essentially the blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into those, you know, those plans to help students ultimately improve student learning outcomes.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Absolutely. And um I I think this to to quote the school excellence framework as you rightly have, uh that's not an alien thing, nor should it be to any of us, because we all know that we have a course, if we're a classroom teacher, we have a set of outcomes and dot points, indicators, whatever we call it. And and realistically, I love what I love about school excellence and and the approach, particularly that we we I think is gaining understanding and traction is we can always be even better if. So that um continuous journey of development and improvement, it's not that anyone's failing or lacking, we're at the the world's most largest single, diverse, complex public education system. Yes, New York on any one day might have one or two thousand more kids than us, but it's a city. We diverse geographically, financially, um, there's a whole range of um equity opportunities in our system. So that that approach of continuous improvement, considering, checking, confirming, where can we go from here, what can we do, what's within our capacity now, within the available resources, it might be the right work that has to take a longer time to occur, or it might be the right initiative that just has to start a bit later. But that even better rift thing, uh mantra, I suppose, also resonates with me too. And uh it again to combine it with selflessness, I know we're going to talk about this later on. I think providing that paradigm and supporting others to do the same is what makes our system just that. You know, it's an authentic, interdependent collaboration. Yeah. It's a pleasure to serve here.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Absolutely, and you can hear that coming through. Let's change tact into ConnectEd, shall we? And I'll read some interesting, and you can correct me if these facts are incorrect. Eleven years steering ConnectEd's professional learning for the New South Wales educational leaders, and prior to that, eight years with the Hunter Central Coast Peter 12 Principles Conference. Did I get that correctly? Hang on. Very good. I'll do my homework. And Khalil, what a legacy, and and what what stands out as a true highlight or game-changing moment at though at that conference? Is there a keynote, a conversation, an unexpected turn, a change in which you see your leadership? What's come out of the of Connect Ed?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Uh not so much an implication for my own leadership. It it's I I'll say to you, Drew, that for either of those things, but Connected in particular, it's the feeling you get is you know, when they're done and dusted and and people are walking out and their cup has been refueled academically, socially, emotionally. Um they're inspired to go back to their schools and their communities. There's that feeling of contentment and um there's just that, you know, it's the right work again, I'll use that phrase. And it's a bit like parenting, you know, when the kid graduates. It's that that emotional content. Yeah, that was it. It you don't need the big song of dance routine and the certificate at the end. I think if to call out what you've or to respond to what you've called out, look, we've been blessed with Connected, and I think the fact that it was a grassroots movement, first of all, that attracted literally the world's thought leaders. And and continues to, I'll say, to, and I know we'll de we'll delve into that. Um so whether it's Parsi Saulberg, Dylan William, Alma Harris, Viviane Robinson, Ken Robinson, um, you know, I could I could be speaking here for an hour just on who was so go to the Connect Ed websites, folks. Just Google Connect Ed. Um But I think what led its success was literally that it was a grassroots activity and it was principled, L E, Learning, by Principles, A L, you included. For principles, originally, and it that's when it started at the at the Hunter Central Coast level. And then when it became a statewide adjunct to professional association um conferences, but also academics-based conferences, and it became a hybrid event in that it was for all um principals and also directors. But then we we changed tack and we said, well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We're going to bring the middle leaders in because the system is stronger by developing the future principles. And we started, and this is um not necessarily a a a game changer, but a highlight for me was remembering having four half-day sessions for middle leaders, having uh Alma Harris, Helen Timpley, Michelle Jones, and having only 15 people to 50 people turn up at each of those sessions. Now, I'm not saying that as a failure, but just to say that's where it literally started. It was so unknown. And and here I want to call out and praise the principals who prioritized uh funding for those middle leaders to attend because they have the casual relief costs, of course. That that's the the challenge, the fiscal challenge with all PL at the moment. Um but I think what we saw from that was that that actually grew to having 550 attend on a day like that for middle leadership, to the point where the middle leaders were attending twice as in the volume as the the principals. But look, a legacy there is as you've called out, we've had over 10,000 people attend that, and it was for below cost because we had the good grace and support of our sponsors in line with you know departmental procurement. It was um delivered below cost to be responsive to schools' needs, so that the right professional learning, the right collaboration prior to, during, and after all that community of learning and communities of practice occurred. And that led to other initiatives such as Dylan William working for two years across Callahan and Cessnock areas and Upper Hunter, or Tom Gusky coming back to work across the Central Coast and the Hunter. So, yeah, I I suppose as you asked that and I unpack it, yeah, it looked wonderfully. But which of the which of the thought leaders that inspired me and all of that a conversation? All of them, Drew, what a blessing, you know.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, uh it it is. I mean, to single out one person out of that list would be would be well, morally would be questionable. But the just the the fact it just became world class and don't say that lightly, but it really was the who's who in education or leadership.

Khalil Khay (guest):

That's right. I mean, it just to think in your li in your backyard for New South Wales public educators, there are so many highlights, but to see Dylan William and Stephen Heppel having a Socratic debate on stage about approaches to pedagogy to have Sir Ken Robinson booming in, all of those things.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And where I mean it it obviously you said it was on uh recess it with as we're recording 2025. Is there a light in there still for opportunity moving forward?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Absolutely, Drew, and I think um if maybe one of the messages that can come out of this for our people in the field is to say that the the moral imperative for connected still exists, which is to provide extremely economical access to world-class professional learning. That doesn't go away, and I think like any leader, we look at opportunities to deliver that variety of ways. Certainly, you do that in your role. Uh certainly we learnt how to do it when challenged with a uh Sir Ken being ill at the time with his um physically his ability to walk, and so that was by a satellite by a bunch of principals who would have thought that we would have been able to do live crosses during COVID. We were able to move to a hybrid event. So certainly next year there will be, and you hold on to your hats, folks, it will be probably a free event with three world-class speakers, and what that is to do is to continue the to continue that service, to continue that community of practice. Um, and then as we do, you know, come out of those fiscally challenging times and there is that sort of new way of coming together for professional learning, that's what we'll look at, like all of the professional associations and the research associations.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, very much aligns with by the principle, for the principal, listening to, responding, for, using that service mindset. And colleagues listening, you heard the word free, and that's what it is. It's it and to quote your famous quote, Khalil always says, it's cheap as chips, these and it really is in terms of when you put down to the cost for the behind the scenes for the for the cost of these world-class speakers to come into New South Wales is uh phenomenal.

Khalil Khay (guest):

If I could give you a decoder to that, Drew, I think you're you thank you for calling that out. I I even this year uh to see three world-class leaders speaking to principals, middle leaders for a hundred and seventy-five bucks a day. I'd unheard of. But it hasn't gone.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, it's good to sort of clarify because there was that unknown space and and obviously fiscal environment is a is a part of that that that process as well. But there's nothing like having world-class leaders come and speak to the system system leaders and middle leaders as well.

Khalil Khay (guest):

I think you're right, Drew. I suppose to take it back to the school excellence framework though, and and to, you know, I know there's schools we're all looking at doing our QDAIs at this point in time of the year, depending when you're listening to the podcast. But you heard me saying earlier the right work. And if it's the right work, you just consider the time and the methodology to to do it. And um so there's a r uh there's opportunities to look at different ways to continue that to best support the the budgets of schools and the time and the availability and and principals uh again, uh principals out there, middle leaders out there, I'm going to praise you for you built connected. We just facilitated it all happening. Uh, and we'll continue to develop what you need as that grassroots thing to to fill your cups and develop your learning.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah. Let's change or switch hats there in terms of your other involvements. And you again, correct me if I'm wrong here. You've been involved in similar work with the Australian College of Educators. If I'm incorrect, please let me know. Incorporated with uh ASA and the Principals Australia Institute. Can you tell us a little bit about that work and what what what involvement do you have with that? Sure. Those organizations now. Sure.

Khalil Khay (guest):

So uh Australian College of Educators is a cross-sectoral um cross sector. Now I I know that sounds like I'm repeating, but basically it means from early childhood right through to tertiary, and it's also public-private, independent, Catholic systemic within the school sectors. So there I had a variety of roles, both with um you know regional convening and building middle leadership there, um building opportunities, professional learning for early career teachers, mentorship, uh, recognition of teachers through um education week, things like that. Certainly our system, then the public system does that really, really well now. But at the time I was working with ACE at that level and through to being on their state board, was doing the same. Um, you know, very fortunate to be recognized by them for the work there. But again, that's from that service idea, I suppose, Drew. And with Principals Australia Institute, the real focus there was on developing, probably prior to where we have that robust recognition of highly accomplished Lee teachers and the principal standards, we're at the very beginning of that work that ASOL had presented. So PAI at the time was prototyping and developing what a credential called the Certified Practicing Principle. So there was some work that I did there with a colleague up here, um Alyssa Scully at the time, but but there was about 20 of us from across Australia who worked with PAI first to prototype it and then be, I think, in the first cohort. Um, obviously there's other credentials that have come along, but I suppose that was work alongside ACR to build the status of the profession alongside the Royal College of Surgeons or engineers or chartered accountants.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah.

Khalil Khay (guest):

So that was a joy as well.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Really giving professionalism to where it is deserved in the education space. Absolutely, yeah.

Khalil Khay (guest):

And and it's I think look like all good law lawyers, doctors, nurses, Ambos, Drew, we're there to serve the people. But and and you're not doing it for the money, but um that recognition. And we we were both just talking to a colleague who's hosting us today about it's not it's not the letters that go before or after your name, but it's it's nice to know that you know the system or the the profession recognises you for those things. So that's that's probably what shaped the work in both of those areas, you know, the the recognition events, the supporting, providing those opportunities if they weren't necessarily getting it.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Now, speaking of letters behind your name, segue into now. Did you like that or just segue it into that? No, no, we will go a little bit off if that's okay, and then I'll come, I'll bring you back. Because I don't think we've covered your currently studying your PhD through New South University. Have we got that? Have we got that?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Started at New South Wales and uh with my first supervisor um who I'm blessed, Harsey Seilberg, um had changed universities. So then between I suppose systems roles, um connected, and then a passion personally for performing arts, um, I put that on hold and then it's now moving down to where Parsey currently is. Um the focus has changed because I started that during the second year of COVID, and really that the focus of that is I'll I'll just give you the title. Stickiness, why the right change doesn't stick and how we can do implementation better. So really the focus is on equity, implementation science, and how do we make the right changes stick? And just as you were talking about earlier or prompting me with Connected, there's always different ways to do things to still deliver the right outcomes, but maybe with a lesser cost. So for me, I suppose this PhD once resolved or once submitted will be a reflection of that 35, but it'll be 40 years' work by then will really be about um how do we at a system level, at a regional level, at a state level, at a local level, how do we best support our leaders, our middle leaders, our teachers, our students, our communities to have the right change? But I'll bring a new word into our conversation, pathways. And in my secondary career, um that has been a word that's also resonated with me. So alongside that thought of make the right change to the kids in front of you, the kids next door, across the school, across the state, pathways and secondary colleagues who may listen to this a bit less in frequency, given it's a PPA podcast. But um certainly we we talk about there's not one single journey to life, and we all know that as successful resilient adults or even sometimes challenged resilient adults. There is more than one way to succeed, and I suppose that's what will drive this research. You know, what are the pathways to success? Are there other ways that we could be doing this? For example, and I'll just ponder this, I won't give you a value ascribe to it, but I'll let you think about this one. In the last three years, multiple students have entered university from our primaries and secondaries successfully on single course entry, portfolio entry, or early entry. And the initial research is coming out showing that those students, those young adults, are performing just as well as those who've matriculated. So that makes us ponder the thought. Is there only one way to get it right? And we know that in life there's probably many ways to come at the same problem. That's how we teach, isn't it?

Drew Janetzki (host):

Well, that is very interesting to ponder as well, that word stickiness.

Khalil Khay (guest):

And I'm sure we'll be hearing because that'll be the title of it.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Absolutely, it could be the title of our podcast today. Let's move forward now. Thank you for that. The uh I'll go through the past four years you've led as a principal in residence, K-12, and the principal school leadership for the school excellence directorate and previously shaped reform statewide in curriculum directorate. What's your vision in the next era of New South Wales public education?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Um I I think hopefully I've articulated it already. It's it's it's ultimately it's service and equity with that lead that aim for excellence. And excellence will look different for everyone. Um, but it's that continuous improvement, always getting better.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, what is excellent what is excellence? Because we use is the framework our our Bible or our we sh we should be using as excellence? Is that the the one source of truth?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Yeah, look, I think that's really good to call that out, Drew. Uh certainly, and and I often say this to my colleagues and my supervisors that I'm blessed to work with in school excellence, that and I say I'm not a sycophant about this. I truly believe that is our Bible. Uh if you're going back to that, if we are truly one system serving the largest amount of public ed students across the most diverse range of circumstances, geolocation, etc., we need a framework, and that is the school excellence framework. We need a plan. That is the plan for public education. And those are our touchstones or our true norths, and they allow us to constantly improve. But everyone will start their journey at a different place. And at any one time, as you'll hear many of our colleagues saying, where you are can be up and down and back and forth. And that changes with staff leaving our schools, a flood, a fire, retirements, illness, a new syllabus document arriving, a change in the school excellence framework from version two to version three. So I think it's that approaching it again with what can I do? What are my potentials? How can I develop others to do that lifting? How can we serve the students again with equity and opportunity and pathways? So what's my vision for the next era? I think just do that right work all the time. I'm not going to say anything in contradiction to the plan nor to the Ceph or the school excellence framework, because I think it's the right work. It's it's how do we respond as one of our let's say by the end of 2027, Drew, the current life cycle of the plan, there's probably going to be 2,222 schools by then. How do we all serve individually and collectively to enable that?

Drew Janetzki (host):

Well, it's a plan that's been proven over time, Khalil, in terms of if you look at the evidence base across the globe and looking at other jurisdictions, so to speak, this is this model just shines through in terms of true or not the not sure if the word is organic, but true reform that is driven by the school level. It's a not a how am I describing this, not a top-over approach. It's a framework to support. It's not in spectral style, is where I'm where I'm going in this conversation. Absolutely true.

Khalil Khay (guest):

You've captured it really well. I think if we we're articulating the plan, there's been uh it's been developed by educators, it's been critiqued by educators within the system and without. So I think our senior, our executive of our department have been very, very uh strong in their advocacy to to how do we make this plan robust and stand the test of time. That's why it will iterate. And in terms of the school excellence framework, uh you hear the message that this is not an offstead system. This is a system where, again, a bit like Connected, the grassroots, what can I do? How can I be enabled to to to do better for the people I serve? And adding to that, that's if that's the theory or the architecture, when we get to the engineering and the building of it, to take that analogy down, that's where the joy for me has been in the systems roles. And then in excellence, in particular, I'll call out the fact that we've uh, and this isn't my work, I'm going to praise the work of the people I work with and around and and collaborate with. You've got the the ECEF, the electronic Ceph, where you can live in your plan now. You can see what MyPL you wish to use, you can see what activities and initiatives you wish to use, you can see what learning sequences, what activities from the Universal Resources Hub, AI, it it is all talking proactively, reactively, and it's like a macro level program assessment folder day book. And I I think what we have done is built something so well that it actually enables our principals to do the right work. But it's the principal and their team who is leading their plan, not top-down telling them what to do.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Absolutely. And and then that, you know, go to offset comparing this. It's also the balance of having a peer review in that process as well, like having a a principal, a practicing principal as well as a PSL involved in that review process.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Absolutely. And I mean that's just one key part of that four-year school excellence cycle. You've got that annual reflection where it's the school self-assessing. If James Brigham were here right now, he'd say it's the self-assessment that is the critical thing. In fact, the system supports a built around that self-assessment, whether it is leadership, whether it's your admin capacity, whether it's your your uniqueness, your remoteness. Um, and you've got to put a sports analogy, and those who know me out there will laugh because I'm certainly not a sports person many decades ago, may have been, or probably was, but now a performing artist. But you've got almost like the Olympics, you test yourself against a universal standard once every four years, but you build up to it every year, and that's your annual reflections. And every two years in between, you've got a curriculum policy assessment. So there's that constant self-assessment and redevelopment. And I I think I call that consider, check, confirm before. So, like again, it sounds like sycophantry, but I really believe this works. I've seen it work, and and the blessing for me, either in the curriculum role, teaching, learning, student well-being, or for school excellence across Metropolitan South, traveling as a PSL across the state, small schools, two kids schools, two and a half thousand kids schools, um, being based in Sydney or the Hunter is that every principal I talk to when we explain this and to them and their leadership seems to go, oh yeah, that's really going to help me. Um so and that's it.

Drew Janetzki (host):

It's like it actually does guide you where to next in the journey of school excellence. That's right. It's not just not saying it's a you've done using the offset, for example, saying, well, you need to close down now, or as an example, but not saying we would ever we will cut this out, but saying schools would close down, but it's not that mindset of closing schools down, moving on, moving staff, or you know, removing the principal, so to speak. It's a different mindset of a strength-based approach. It's how can we do better or even better if we did this?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Correct, Drew. It's assets focused, it's proactive, you know. To take that programming analogy further, it's formative. We can all it's feed forward, it's not feedback, it's not an endpoint. It's a cycle, it's iterative.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, it goes that's back to that pathway. Now, let's segue now. But before we do, here's a segue for our listeners. Is there any practical ideas that you've heard so far from Khalil's responses that you could experiment with your own school this term, or if whenever you're listening, what could you do? That's a just a pondering moment as we move into our next part. And our next part is looking at the professional learning suite. I had to go there, Khalil, in terms of uh New South Wales PPA podcast. Professional learning does sit at the heart of sustained leadership, and what sets New South Wales suite of offerings apart in your eyes?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Drew, uh, I think having been well working K-12, I I'm going to call out exceptional professional learning and that that commitment from all three public New South Wales associations. So uh obviously PPA and and with PPA's colleagues Seppler and SPC. Uh my career, I've had the blessing to be involved particularly with art of leadership. And I suppose why I this resonated with me so well, and that was because I had the blessing of a beautiful principal who developed me. And uh my background, I suppose, my first undergrad degree was as a Bachelor of Science in Psychology. And Glasser's work really again goes to what we've been talking about strengths, assets, even better if what's within my control, choose not to worry about what's not in my control. And certainly the art of leadership and that strong GLASA choice theory research base has time and time again been independently verified, researched internationally. I mean, we even had the Glasser conference here in Newcastle two years ago, uh, with people like Ed DC talking about learned optimism, Seligman, those those kind of world leaders again. And PPA's professional learning suite, that is that hallmark product in there. And Drew, you'll know this better than me, but I would safely say at least three, four, five thousand leaders would would have attempted art of leadership uh over those 23, 24 years that it's been going. I I think for me, the pivotal learning from that around leadership in particular, I call that professional learning and personal development as well, or personal and professional development. The biggest impact I saw that having was in two schools, one where I was a middle leader and one where I was actually the leader. And being able to make that accessible to everyone, to really allow people to change their paradigm, their approach, and then to take the next step beyond that and use aligned well-being, proactive, well-being, equity-focused resources and tools that took that into the student, the teacher, the community level. It really does help you to turn around the school. And there's a lot of research on Grattan Institute about turnaround schools. Um, there's a lot of good research too about leadership. I had a wonderful principal at Hunter School of Performing Arts when I first went there who taught me to really think about the leadership quadrants. You know, most of the time, and it is that personality of the principal that drives the school or the personality the leader drives the organization. Um, so the quadrants of leadership are basically this. Quadrant one, I'm just gonna tell you, you know, but that's the boss leader. Quadrant two is I trust you, something's worrying you, you come and talk to me about it, we're gonna talk. Okay, I'll give you a bit of steer, I'm gonna decide. But quadrant three is really where all good leaders operate most of the time. And that's you're doing the right work, I trust you. If on that occasion there's something that's you just want to second guess, clarify, double check, risks manage, Moscow, whichever framework, races, whatever we're talking about, you come and check in with the leader. The leader says, Okay, we'll talk, play it all out. Some of the conversations could be. I'm remembering my wonderful college principal at the time saying, Are you out of the plane yet? No. Have you got your shoot on? Yep. Okay. So it's that modality of knowing where you're operating. So if you're in quadrant three, we'll talk, but you'll decide. And then quadrant four is really that distributive leadership that we talk about, Viviana Robinson's work, the effect size. Yeah. Um, I trust you, I've developed you. You decide. You don't even need to talk to me. You don't, I trust you. And that's really what builds capacity in our system, our schools, our networks. So A, I think GLASA, understanding, having that that construct, that um paradigm that everyone shares, not just one person doing it. So here's a pitch for PPA. The more people, folks, that you can send to it, the better. Align that thinking, that way of thinking, not just the way of working, the way of reporting, that way of thinking and operating. And then what modality are we in? Are we in a decision-making time? Yeah. Yeah.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Definitely. Fabulous call out. And also for people listening, it's a nice opportunity for people to reflect upon when you say those four quadrants, it's it's that self-reflecting moment going, well, where am I operating from? What has happened this week, and where am I actually? How am I leading? And it's that constant reflection of, and we know as you as you alluded to, the research at evidence, if you're in that quadrant one, how and why are you in that quadrant? And what what is making you in that space? So, really good, Khalil, in terms of bringing it back to that visual of that those four quadrants and seeing where you operate from, and and for you. Listeners to think about where are you operating from in terms of your leaders and where are your own leaders operating out of as well.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Absolutely true. I know that we're ready to move on from this section, but there are times. I suppose my learning here is there there are right times to be in that quadrant one. You just have to do it. That could be a time of crisis. It could be because the Pasha bulker arrives and 71 rooms are underwater, there's a flood. It could be because there's a pandemic and those command and control decisions just have to be made. Would you make them the same way in a different environment or a different set of circumstances? No. And I think if the more that people are understanding, and that's why, again, the pitch for that universal learning, professional learning, more people in AOL, whatever, connected, the more there's that understanding you say, I understand why that decision is being made. It's not a judgment of me. I can regulate my own responses and a middle leader or a leader. I mean, there'll be days where the secretary will tell us to do things, and that's made with the best intentions and the best knowledge, and we're not in the room, and we respect that. So I think that's no good call out.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Absolutely, really good call out. And and again, art of leadership, you you touched on there. It's looking at from the other person's perspective as their personality types, their constructs. Correct. Yeah, yeah. And something we could delve further into, like your passion for connected, mine is in the art of leadership space, and we can and why is because we can both see the impact of that of those particular pieces and that and the work. Now let's move into Gonsky or Principles in the New Era. And from the Gonsky review to local schools, local decisions through the pandemic and into school success model, principalship in New South Wales has, as we've unpacked in our conversation already today, it's evolved dramatically. It's evolved. How do you see principals' position on uh now how to act as true upward drivers for equity and systematic change? And one um what's one bold lever a principal could pull right now to change a better future for learners?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Great question. Upward drive. I think this is really sort of encapsulating what we've already spoken about today. Um I'm not going to say that there's one magic bullet, there's one magic tool, but I think it's the frame, the stance. Uh, physically, emotionally. Um, you just called it out earlier, Drew. Where are we? What's the greater thing that's trying to be delivered here? Many of us use those, uh, the terminology like, you know, lose a battle, win a war, but it's not about win-lose. It's and it's not just as um, I don't want to say base and superficial, but it's not as simple as win-lose or win-win. It's what's the greater goal? And again, referring back to your visions and your plans, the more you spiral up, whether we're referring to choice theory and art of leadership, whether we're referring to the vision of a school excellence plan, the vision is something that's reflecting student, staff, leader, community voice. And at that point there's agreement because you're at the values level. So, what's one bold lever you could pull right now? It's it's think about that stance, your psychological stance, your emotional stance. Um, like we know that on one test, you know, one day a child's guinea pig has passed, mum and dad have an accident, they're not going to have a good day, it's not gonna be good for our data, whatever. You may have come out of a really, really bad or challenging situation. And you have to buy yourself time to reset, not just compartmentalize, you have to nurture yourself, but but just walk into the next meeting with the right stance. And and I suppose the splip of that is the more people are also thinking that way, there's an empathy and an understanding that the leader is bringing many, many challenges when they walk in that room to help that person. Because all leaders do all day is help people.

Drew Janetzki (host):

They do.

Khalil Khay (guest):

You and that's why you're emotionally and physically exhausted at the end of the day when you start your day job because you've just been responding. So okay. One bold lever, think about your stance, buy yourself the time to to uh go back to your greater good and your greater why. Hopefully, you've been developing your people with that same stance along the way, and that way hopefully it should allow you to be serving, to be equitable, to be developing that excellence and to be resilient and not kill yourself in the process.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because it is, I mean, it's the research is showing how what a complex job the principal ship is. Any thoughts or or comments around the complexities, as you've said, it's really knowing yourself and knowing not being affected effectively by those around you?

Khalil Khay (guest):

I I think like Okay, as a PSL in in the current role, I always make sure that I say to them at the schools that I'm working with that I'm we're here to honour your work, we're here to show our understanding, and we're here to deepen our understanding further. We're here to support guiding your reflections and your where to next and actually even say uh we're all leaders of the system today, we're not just leaders of this site or that campus or this place. What can we take from here? But one of the other things I like to say is that principals are serving everyone all the time. They're like the ER nurse or the ER doctor. And I I take my hat off to people who serve because you you do it for the greater good, you don't do it for yourself. So I suppose if it's coming to a challenge for the listeners out there, well, what can you do to develop that resilience so that you can sustain your principalship or develop yourself from middle leadership to principalship? I I think I take my hat off to principals. Um being public school principals, collectively we share more than our or we take more than our fair share of the load. And uh I've I've been to schools where I'm just in awe every day of how innovative and creative our principals are and their teams around them.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and you would sit in that privileged role to see and be able to authentically comment on that impact as well. Now let's move into the research and advocacy space. As we've alluded to doctoral research of what guiding questions drive your work, and we've we have unpacked that a little bit already with stickiness, and how does this research connect with your daily leadership in schools, or is that something you're pondering now as you are working through your PhD?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Yeah, I think how does it impact on my daily work? I suppose all leadership is is not to be reductionist, but there's an element of change management in it, and some of that change is internally designed and implemented, some of it is responsive to your local settings, and some of it is responsive to governance, whether that be our system or or government requirements. Um so if it comes back to that sort of stickiness thing, is that how do you do that? How do you marry all of that? Even better if it but build it from the bottom up. Um at the end of the PhD, you know, 2030, when I'm much more greater than I'm beginning to be now. And I hope, not I well, I think it'd be naive and arrogant to say that I have a silver bullet, and here's the way that you know, here's New South Wales, the truth, justice, and the red underpants way. This is how you do it. To quote songs. It's there's not one right way to do it because every set of circumstances is unique. Everyone, so here's my learning from today, I suppose. Everyone's in equilibrium, but the equilibrium of each of the 2,219 schools currently is different. These are different set of circumstances. So, how do you evolve that change given your equilibrium, given your available resources from within and from without? And I suppose at the end of the PhD we'll be saying, okay, anecdotally or historically, over 10 years, through pandemics, through fiscally challenging environments, through definitely different world orders and the implications that has, what what what is working. And also to to bring it back to that pathways uh discussion earlier, we are a unique P to 12 system. And we're increasing our preschool enrollments and our support there. That's whether we have a preschool on site in one of the 198 or 97 department schools, let alone the other 1400 department schools that have amazing press links networks with their partner preschools and early learning centres, right through to multiple pathways, TAFE, vet, associateships, early entry, formal entry, or work. I think that stickiness thing will be about also going back to that other research I called out earlier, Drew, which is when the kids go to life, and this is that destination survey all our secondary colleagues do, how did they succeed? And if the evidence is burgeoning at that time that they can succeed in a multiple former ways, I suppose the recommendations I'll be making at that time are not to be about our system, but about the things that impact from the outside on our system. There's that equilibrium thing again. So is there only one way that we need to get to life? And I think we already know that the answer is no.

Drew Janetzki (host):

No, no, absolutely. And there's many, many pathways one could take, and there's many pathways that we could go in this conversation, this rich conversation that we are having. Let's move to 2023, where you took leave, uh, you put your really you put your adverse advocacy on the line as a public education party candidate. What sparked that move and how do you how and how do you see informed advocacy shaping the policy and future of public education?

Khalil Khay (guest):

That ironically I think is just another not just another, it was an element of serving again and advocating for public ed as it is. I mean, uh, like many of us, I've had the fortune to be a public ed ambassador. Uh I I think based on colleagues, friends who were previous presidents of principal's associations in New South Wales, um, you know, you get that call out of the blue that you're not expecting. Okay, there's this. Um certainly I discussed it with my ed and and her uplines at the time, and and obviously there's a range of protocols that you follow, so you're doing the right things, and and also you're thinking about your own family and the implications for your career. But what sparked the move? I think ultimately, Drew, it's the fact that we need to treasure public ed. We need to treasure, and we'll talk about that equilibrium thing. Uh, if if people could metaphorically see a fishbowl, the fish bowl's only as good as the stuff you put into it. It's a closed system. The more filter, the more, sorry, the more filtration, the more food, the more plants to stop Dory getting bored as she swims around and around and around, the better the fishbowl or the fish tank's going to be. So in terms of that and the candidacy there, and I learned a lot. I learned a lot, I suppose, about governance and how how um that system works as opposed to our public its system. Um what have I learned to see in terms of informing advocacy and shaping? I I think I learnt, I took from that um the right change takes a long time, but listening and collaborating is the best thing. And again, go back to stance, Drew, and that emotional regulation. We really want to see the right decisions made to serve the vision, not to serve the animus or the emotions. Um so I think what we have seen um since has been uh, in a sense, a renaissance of public ed, because at all levels we're seeing the voice of educators driving our system, which is wonderful. And that's really what sort of pushed that move. But um interesting learning experience. Would I do it again during my career? I'd probably not until I be retired and or if at all. But um certainly it was another way to serve um and certainly 10 weeks' worth of leave for that.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Well, another pathway, as so to speak, and it's not all linear, and you know, people would have seen that space, people would have seen that passion come through. It's not as if you said, Yes, I'll I'll be the leader of this party. People, there is a process behind that, and people nominated. You could see the vision, could see the passion. We're hearing the passion coming through today. So, and for those listening, you can really hear that passion coming through from Khalil in terms of his optimistic hope for public education as we swim in that fishbowl, so to speak, and let's see if we can improve that fishbowl that we do swim in together. So, Khalil, let's talk about further parts in your career of university.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Thanks, Drew. Um I think like most of us, we have that passion for lifelong learning and instilling that. Uh, you've heard me talking about earlier, not only are we serving this the kids in front of us, but we're we're serving there's the the student pedagogy, but as leaders, we are equally focused on that adult pedagogy. The better our staff, the better our middle leaders, the better our students, the better our system. Uh at university, I obviously I've had the fortune to go and do master's research and doing doctoral work, but um two opportunities I had, well, three really. One with Uni of Wollongong was to work with their mentoring. Uh and this is decades ago now, Drew, but they actually, Kurdos Uni of Wollongong, they had online mentoring for their early students and their students about to leave and go out to hopefully the workforce in the public ed system, possibly the others. Um I did a bit of online mentoring for them. But with Newcastle Uni, uh I was fortunate and grateful to be able to be their first course coordinator and original for their third-year early childhood language course. Uh, and what we did there, every principal with an infant's enrollment will know this challenge. We were never getting enough. Here's the wicked problem: never getting enough parents volunteering to come in and do guided reading groups or spelling or putting their fingers in the sand, learning how to write, create the letter shapes. And of course, you have that snooper vision issue too, where the sometimes the parent coming in is not there to be altruistic and give. So that was one wicked problem. And when the opportunity to come and work for the University of Newcastle with their third-year language students, many of whom I've now been blessed to work with the art in the field or their APC and I's or middle leaders, etc., was to actually set up their course as a flipped learning course. So we actually would have all the tutes in the schools that could not get parent helpers, and they would be trained up to do a grave spelling analysis, a running record, a decoding activity. And then they would go out and it became a almost like the uni's medical model, a problem-based approach. And so they'd learnt by doing, and then they would reflect in the next lecture and then learn the theory into practice. They would go and practice it in the next chute. So that was a joy, and also there was some time there spent on the university council. So that's the statutory body for the governance of the whole university, which is that was a joy because that was an elected position from the graduates, and we looked at um I call, or we're calling out earlier and um later on, I think, about quadrants of leadership and why we make decisions. That was an opportunity being on a board of governance to actually say, well, why are we changing funding here or why are we doing these things? And so again, very committed, passionate people from all experience levels, walks of life, all um professions, experiences. So that was a real joy there to serve. But uh but ultimately there I was there with a lens, obviously, for the education courses where I had previously worked, and um yeah, those uni experiences were really good to be, you know, inside the the the governance of the beast, to be teaching there and and then now continuing to be a student, um hopefully for the last time.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Wow. So you're really unpacking that you've had the experience, what I've heard is in the primary, the secondary, the university sector. And when you think about it, preschool there, because that's where I was lecturing to. Absolutely. So you can authentically say, I know all almost all of the pathways within all the mazes, so to speak.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Well, it does go to those pathways, Drew. And I I think you're right. Uh uh that probably manifested later on in my or through my principalship at Glendor, where a new bunch of principals came into that network. And collectively we said, what do we do? How does the sum of the whole become greater? And we all worked and approached and engaged with our preschools, our partner, early learning centres differently. We didn't get into the chook raffle and turn up at the lucky dip and where half of our stuff was being borrowed by the other sectors. We we actually just offered free professional learning every term. Didn't matter whether your kids were going to come to our schools. But what we built over three years was trust, relationship, a professional community, and and in that network where the 15 partner primaries went to two junior secondaries, went to one senior campus. And then the the vision or the motto of that network was it takes a network to raise a child. We actually added in that pre-decay and it grew the enrolments across that area. There was trust, there was just word of mouth, it was that ground up approach. Um, but but even better was we were able to start doing things like lesson study and have our kindergarten staff will go and look at what's what's teaching look like in a preschool. Have the preschool staff come and say, Oh, that's how K works now.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, it was a real joy. And the themes coming through aligning with high quality professional learning is trust and relationships are the key to so many successful professional learning experiences.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Bang on Drew. They're the only three R's we should be talking about relationships, relationships, relationships.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Absolutely. So let's look at rapid fire, Khalil. Quick reflections. Let's close with some quick questions here. What's firstly, are you ready to play? Absolutely.

Khalil Khay (guest):

I'll be one minute or less on each one, Drew.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Let's see if we can do rapid fire. Most memorable or transformational educational connected keynote, and I know that's a big question to ask, is there you can be led off the hook by saying several.

Khalil Khay (guest):

There are many, as we said earlier, many, many speakers that just fill your cup. Um Dylan, Vivian, Andy, Hargraves. I didn't even mention Andy twice. Jennifer Gore, so many, but I'll give you a humorous one instead because it's the stories that invigorate our leadership. Uh Connected 2015, the first year of Connected, when we literally a bunch of principals said, Oh, how do we do this? Well, we learn like students learn by doing how do we do satellites and all that? And what happens if the tech fails? So, a bit like today, we were using a bit of tech, we had a satellite, we had an ISDN connection via the ISD lines, we had the PowerPoint slides, and I do remember saying, just as the tech started to work, and if all that fails, we've got a cardboard cutout and the slides, which is when Ken Robinson arrived. He goes, Oh, can I see my cardboard cutout, please? Which is still on tape somewhere. So that's my memorable moment for Connected.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Love it. If you could put uh just one article or book in every principal's hand this week, what would it be?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Drew, really tough. Um, of course, I'm gonna say anything that uh Connected has provided over the last three years. So look, any any of the work from any world leader, but I mean, we've been very fortunate to present uh Yong Zhao's work on AI in a in a transformative disrupted age this year, PACT's work on um, you know, the the paradoxes of of um ground up top down. Aaron Hamilton, Dylan William, um our good colleague Simon Brakesby's done similar work. There's de-implementation and and um pruning principles as well. So you can't keep adding, and this message came from our system as well, loud and clear. Have to de-implement some stuff to do new stuff. Can't do it all.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Absolutely great words and all of those authors that you said world-class. Best leadership advice you've ever received and put into action. Oh wow.

Khalil Khay (guest):

I really should have previewed responses to this best leadership advice. Look, I I think I already called out one, so I'm gonna give a nod to that wonderful man Brian Campbell, who gave me the quadrants, um to Tracy Hain, who gave me the um make a difference next door. So let me just use those two. There are many, many forms of leadership advice I've been given, but in terms of putting into action, how do you best serve? Well, it's that stance. It's what mode am I operating in, how am I regulating, but how do I make a difference? It's about you know sustainability, resilience of your service. Yeah. What are my available resources inwardly, outwardly?

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a sentence, what gives you the greatest hope for the future of New South Wales public education?

Khalil Khay (guest):

Without being Twee, every one of you out there, everyone that I have the joy to work alongside or to visit, it's it's I won't just say public education, even though Drew said that any of us in public service, but for us, the educators, it's anyone in the New South Wales public education system. I've served it with joy since 91. I hope to continue to serve it right through to 2035. When I'm an old man, but it's the people that we work with every day, the people that we support, advocate for, lead, mentor. I'm using some PPA terminology. Um it's the greatest hope is us.

Drew Janetzki (host):

Yeah. Well said. Khalil, it's been an absolute pleasure. Your authenticity, your drive, what people, what's possible when leaders can stay connected with purpose, people and possibility. And to every listener, what is one what's your one big takeaway? Well there are so many takeaways from this conversation and the richness in which and you can hear why he was nominated and has gone through pathways and he's seen he's not just been in primaries, been in secondary. He has experienced the whole system and gamut as well. We'd love you to share this episode with colleagues. Khalil Kaye, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Khalil Khay (guest):

Yeah, pleasure's been mine, Drew. Thank you so much.

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Drew Janetzki

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