Echoes of Resilience: The Sarah Gaer Chronicles - Unraveling the Threads of Trauma and Triumph |Season 3 Episode 309

In episode 309 of These Fukken Feelings Podcast, we have the privilege of welcoming Sarah Gaer, a luminary in the realm of mental health and a survivor of suicide loss whose life’s work has thrown a lifeline to those in the shadows of despair. Our rich and heartfelt discussion peels back the intricate layers of human emotion and resilience, shining a light of hope and understanding into the darkest corners of our shared human experience.

Sarah, who comes with a robust background in clinical mental health and a Masters Degree, interweaves her personal narrative with her extensive professional expertise to guide us through the turbulent waters of mental wellness. She articulates the profound impact of suicide not only on individuals but also on entire communities, and underscores the urgency to embrace our emotions and advocate for mental health, a cause she has championed tirelessly, particularly among first responders and within the construction industry.

Every moment of our conversation with Sarah is a step toward healing, illuminating the vital role of storytelling in navigating grief and kindling hope. She introduces us to the 'LISTEN' acronym as an indispensable tool in crisis intervention, while sharing her own profound tales of loss that underscore the necessity of robust support networks and the evolving comprehension of what it means to survive.

Sarah's odyssey, marked by deep personal loss and ascension to the vanguard of suicide prevention thought leadership, beckons us to heed the subtleties of warning signs and cultivate communities fortified against the tempests of loss and resurgence.

We delve into the soul-stirring narratives from our literary work "Guts, Grit, and The Grind," advocating for a societal shift in norms—especially regarding men's mental health—in pursuit of a life-preserving cultural ethos. The conversation also approaches the practical aspects of therapy, offering invaluable guidance to those taking their first steps toward this essential healing venture.

Our discussion wraps up with a clarion call to find serenity and joy amidst the cacophony of life's challenges. Join us for an episode not merely centered on the hurdles we face but on transcending them and flourishing in their aftermath.

#MentalHealthAwareness #TraumaInformedCare #SuicidePrevention #FirstResponders #MensMentalHealth #SurvivorStories #StorytellingHeals #CommunitySupport #PodcastForChange #SarahGaer #TheseFukkenFeelings

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

You don't have to be positive all the time. It's perfectly okay to feel sad, angry, annoyed, frustrated, scared and anxious. Having feelings doesn't make you a negative person. It doesn't even make you weak. It makes you human and we are here to talk through it all. We welcome you to these fucking feelings podcast, A safe space for all who needs it. Grab a drink and take a seat. The session begins now.

Speaker 2: 0:30

What is up guys? Welcome to these fucking feelings podcast, season three, where we're continuing to focus on mental health. I am Micah. We got Rebecca over here virtually. She then abandoned me and I'm going to say it until she comes back. Our special guest, sarah. Oh, my God, I forgot already. It's Gare, gare and I was like Gare and I was going to say Bear, okay, got it, sarah, gare, am I saying it right now, you are.

Speaker 3: 1:00

Yeah Cool.

Speaker 2: 1:03

I'm glad that's the only time that we have to say your last name for a little while. So we just believe here that no one can tell you a story more than you can. So basically introduce yourself to our audience.

Speaker 4: 1:13

Sure, you know, I have a professional hat that I wear. I've worked in the mental health field since 1998. I don't like admitting that because then people try to figure out how old I am. My feelings get really heard. Then I cry after the big sterile.

Speaker 4: 1:26

So but anyway, 1998, you know, and I started off in my mind, which we in hindsight wasn't correct. But in my mind, you know, I just fell in love with insurance psychology class and I thought it was really cool and I wanted to learn more and more and more. And you know, of course, now, all these years later, I realized that I was attracted to it because I had lived experience of my own and because I had been impacted by so many people in my life who had lived experience with trauma and substance use and their challenges. So that's, I have the professional hat.

Speaker 4: 2:01

Now I spend my time somewhat equally split between suicide prevention and trauma response, where I spend a lot of time with first responders, and more recently I've become very involved with the construction industry. But at the end of the day I feel like the part of me that's most important is that I am a suicide loss survivor. Also, in 1998, I lost my very best friend to suicide and she was the third friend I lost in two years and that really fundamentally changed who I was as a human being and plays a huge role at who I am in my work. You know, on the fun side, I am also a mom. I have two kids. One is a college student, the other one is in the United States Navy and I ride horses, used to ride Harleys and very recently bought myself a little sports car.

Speaker 2: 2:52

So you know this whole little thing about not wanting people to, you know, to guess your age. You kind of get it all the way so your kids ain't at home, which means oh yeah, so you originally from 1900s, for real right.

Speaker 4: 3:06

I'm definitely from the 1900s.

Speaker 2: 3:08

yes, Okay, I just said such a something. So you say you lost three people, where they all to suicide, or was it just one?

Speaker 4: 3:15

Yeah, I lost three friends to suicide in about a two and a half year period. Two of them were actually very close to each other, meaning in their lives they were close friends. So that's known as a cluster of suicides, which is actually fairly rare but it does happen, and there's not a lot of people out there who talk about being impacted by a cluster of suicides. Each one was entirely the circumstances were completely different. I wrote a book about law enforcement suicide, you know. And then the second one was another, you know, very special person to me, and he also died by suicide and then six months after him, my best friend took her life.

Speaker 2: 3:54

So now were you already in the mental health field when this happened.

Speaker 4: 3:58

No, when the first person died, I was 17, and then the when both of the other two died, I was 19.

Speaker 2: 4:07

And I don't, I couldn't even imagine. You know, I don't think I know anybody personally. My mom tells me we have somebody in our family who, like, jumped off a roof, but this was like generations ago, and that I don't know, so I'm not directly impacted. But I can't imagine three.

Speaker 4: 4:23

And many, since you know it's like when you have somebody in your life who has a substance use problem, it seems like when you become aware of something, it just seems to happen around you more often. And so I've been impacted many, many times by suicide. And you know, people say to me it's so dark, it's so sad and it's obviously it is. Of course it is, but it's also believe it or not, it's also really there's a lot of hope in the work that I do. I mean the most amazing people like, for example, did you know that most people who survive an attempt will never, will not go on to die by suicide? So this idea that like, well, once somebody's reached that place, there's nothing anybody can do, it's not true. And then you know, there's all these suicide attempt survivors out there telling their stories now and they're they're incredible and they're so hopeful and they're so optimistic. So, believe it or not, my work is actually filled with a lot of hope.

Speaker 2: 5:15

And that's good to hear, because you know, I'm just. I had just one experience and I wish that I knew you at that time where someone texted so our podcast has a dedicated phone line for the podcast and they were texting me and basically telling me that he was standing on a bridge and he was about to jump off. And you know, immediately I thought it was a joke. I don't know why, but it was just. It was so random. No one ever texts that number of them people that's trying to give me business loans. So it was the most random thing and I didn't know how I didn't. I didn't know what to do. At first I thought it was a joke, I wasn't going to respond, but then it was like, well, what if it's real? What do I do? What do I say? And I was completely unprepared for it.

Speaker 2: 6:02

So I know we're going into this a little quickly, but what would be your advice for me on the other end of that phone receiving that text? What I mean, what I did do was try to convince the person like, this is a feeling, this is what you're feeling now, in this moment. You may not feel this way later, you know. So, like, and then also, you know, ckl gave the suicide hotline. I tried to do those things. Let's call it emergency, you know, assistance. He didn't want to do all that so it was like, okay, we'll just talk, like you can call me. They don't want to call. He just wanted the text. And you know I'm, and I'm over here anxiously now that that that and I'm like all right, say something, let me know you're still there. I'm like what's going on? But what would you have recommended? I do.

Speaker 4: 6:44

Like you're already an expert, Because keep them talking, because you know what. What people need the most is someone to listen to them, and what I wish I could say do these things and no one else will ever die by suicide again. Well, we don't have those answers. We haven't figured out that magic solution, but what we know is that so often, people desperately need someone to just listen to them. Right and exactly based on what you were just talking about, a very dear colleague of mine and I have been creating a training that is it's actually called listen and it's it's an acronym, but the L stands for listen and it's the first and it's the most important directive is just listen to the person. Let them say whatever they need to say, share them out, right, and then we want you to inquire, you know, find out why this is happening.

Speaker 4: 7:36

What's going on? Because sometimes, as people start to talk about what's happening, right, you're using a different part of their brain and all of a sudden, they come to some realization. Have you ever asked someone a question and then, halfway of it, out of your mouth, the answer pops in your head, right? So sometimes, by just getting them to open up and talk about it, they're starting to see things a little bit more clearly, right, and then just support them, right, and that's. It sounds like that's what you did. And then the end I'm not giving it all away, but the the encourage is encourage them to stay alive and to you know, to think about getting help. And then the end is notice your reactions. Right, you're scared. Somebody's life might be on the line. You're really, really scared. It's sometimes when we're scared we actually do things that aren't helpful.

Speaker 2: 8:21

My problem is I have a weird sense of humor and sometimes my humor can be dark and I just don't know when I should joke about things. I guess that filter with me is off and it was like if this person like if I see on the news tomorrow this person you know is like what the heck? But he is okay and he's still okay and we actually still communicate now. So that's pretty cool, awesome.

Speaker 4: 8:43

That's a beautiful story. It's a beautiful story that this person had a number and they called it and or they texted it, and a human being responded to that.

Speaker 2: 8:53

Oh my God. But I'm gonna tell you it made me think about like. I'm about to take it off the website. I'm gonna take my number on my social media. I don't know if I'm immensely prepared for this. And was it immediately that you wanted to go into like suicide prevention or study?

Speaker 4: 9:09

Oh, no, I ended up in suicide. You're gonna laugh. Those feelings that you had, dealing with that, those text messages, is what got me into suicide prevention completely by accident. So I go through several jobs in the field, fast forward, I get my master's degree in clinical mental health counseling right, and I think I'm going to work with combat vets, and I think I'm ready.

Speaker 4: 9:33

And I find out at the very last minute that the VA won't accept my degree. I'm like three years, $60,000. Like, what am I gonna do? So I take the first job I'm offered. It's working in an inner city mental health clinic in Springfield, massachusetts, right, and it's not what I had dreamt of doing. But you know, I invested all this time in money and then all of a sudden I find myself sitting with all of these people I'm gonna estimate, maybe 50% of the people I was working with wanted to die by suicide and I was terrified, petrified, right, because for me as a suicide loss survivor, that's a real raw nerve. And how am I going to let this person walk out of my door and not know they're safe?

Speaker 3: 10:15

Right.

Speaker 4: 10:16

So I started doing the only thing I know to do, the only thing I've ever been trained to do, which is I'm sending them to crisis and 75% of the time they're getting sent home, and the other 25% of the time they're getting forced into a hospitalization they don't want. Neither of these things are helping. So my first thought is I'm just gonna quit. I made a huge life mistake. I should never have gotten into the mental health field. This is absolutely a disaster. And then I looked at my husband, who had supported me for the three years and the $60,000, and realized there was no way I could just quit.

Speaker 2: 10:47

Right, right right.

Speaker 4: 10:48

You can't get a divorce Right. So, yeah, I'm gonna make a lot of debt. So I decided that I would get a job with the crisis team, in hopes that, if crisis is where I sent these people, obviously if I worked there, they would teach me how to handle all of this.

Speaker 2: 11:03

And did they teach you?

Speaker 4: 11:04

Not really. Not really, I mean better. I certainly learned a lot. I don't want to be taken wrong, but did I really learn? No, and I say that because now that I've been in suicide prevention and on a national level, I know how little I knew back then. And then, as things, it was sort of just all by happen, chance. But I also decided to join the trauma team there, which was the beginning of my relationship with the trauma center out by Boston, and I ended up running a crisis counseling program after we'd had tornadoes in Western Massachusetts and I ran it under that trauma center.

Speaker 4: 11:43

So I begged them to keep me. I was like what do I have to do? Because I thought to myself, these folks, their specialty is trauma and suicide. So if I go and I work with them just for a couple years, I'm going to get really good and I'm really going to be able to make a difference in this world. And so I went to them and I begged like I'll do it, and you have to understand this is a two hour commute from where I live. I'll do anything Whenever you guys help. And the director at the time is like well, I do have one per time job. And I'm like, okay. And he says, well, it's suicide prevention. And I'm like, oh, that was. I was not planning to hop into the den quite that much, but I was like, okay, I want to hear more. And he says, and you'd have to specialize in men.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Wow.

Speaker 4: 12:27

And I'm like, okay, and he goes and you'd have to travel the entire state of Massachusetts and all this is part of it. Oh, it gets better. Then he says, ready, and we're not going to pay you. Well, I really wanted to be able to make a difference. I really wanted to learn as much as I could so that nobody had to feel the pain that I felt and losing my friend, so that no other beautiful young person's lives were lost like my friends, right? So I said I'm going to do it for like a couple years, just a couple years, and I'm going to learn everything. I can Fast forward. I was in it for, I think, almost 10 years, because the deeper I got, I started to meet people from all around the country, all around the world, the most amazing human beings. They're brilliant, they're funny, they're passionate, they're working so hard, they're courageous and you know so. That's why, when people go, oh, that's what you do, it's like I understand the reaction, but I am surrounded by the most amazing human beings on earth.

Speaker 2: 13:24

It's not incredible I hate using that word. It's kind of that all trauma is the same, Like if you're not sexually assaulted or you're not beaten as a child or you're not abandoned, that you don't have trauma, and I'm pretty sure that that's something you probably learned beating so many people.

Speaker 4: 13:41

Well, trauma is relative. Look right, trauma is relative and we never take away what is traumatic for any person. With that said, there certainly is a spectrum of things that people go through. Some people are very blessed and fortunate and they have a minimal amount of horrible things happen in their lives. Other people have a life that's just filled with it.

Speaker 3: 14:03

Right.

Speaker 4: 14:04

You know. So I never minimize what one person went through. I never go. Oh, you think that's bad. Well, you should hear this right. But I also do acknowledge that some people have minimal misfortune of horrible trauma.

Speaker 2: 14:16

Yeah, I'm one of those people and I'm like yeah, I do have a smile and I'm like I don't know, it was trauma. And I'm so funny because of trauma, you know, and that was how I learned about trauma, Right Going back to your friend, where they're like any clues or anything that you knew or was there? Something was that hard on you, though, that you felt like you knew and then you didn't. Okay, I'm gonna let you talk.

Speaker 4: 14:41

All three of them were totally different. One of the things we talk about with suicide is the tyranny of hindsight. In most cases not all, but in most cases when you look back, there are going to have been warning signs and even sometimes missed opportunities, and this is why it's so important for us to teach everyone we can about what to look for and how to show up and support people they care about. For my best friend who died, she died actually on her seventh attempt. So even though I said, most people who make an attempt and survive it will not go on to die by suicide, she was in the 10% of people who did go on to later die.

Speaker 4: 15:15

But every time that she made an attempt, you know, her life flashed in front of me, and several of those attempts I didn't know if she would survive them or not, and so it was always in my mind that I might lose her, and we call that anticipatory grief. And anticipatory grief happens in all sorts of circumstances, like if you have a parent who has cancer, you may experience anticipatory grief. If you have a dog and you're looking at their face and just seeing that they're getting old, you might experience anticipatory grief. For me personally, anticipatory grief is actually worse than grief, because with anticipatory grief is the dread and I'm a pull the band-aid off person, like it's easier for me when I okay, now I the person's gone and I have to deal with that in some ways is easier. So yes, it was absolutely traumatic for me on the losing her, and how did you pick yourself up?

Speaker 4: 16:06

Well, I'm incredibly stubborn, but so. So part of it is my character, but part of it and the bigger part of it was I had the most phenomenal supports. I had just taken a job working at a girl's residential program when my best friend died and I called them and said I don't think I can take this job, I don't think I can work with these kids who are struggling and my mother, who is absolutely brilliant she does not know it and please don't share this with her, because I don't want, I really don't want her head to get like really big. And then, whenever she gives me advice, I don't like she's gonna be like, but you said I know what to mean by that, with people like that.

Speaker 2: 16:41

I just want to let you know one thing, rebecca it's okay for Sarah to be stubborn. You're not allowed. Okay, back to you, sarah.

Speaker 4: 16:49

This was actually like the best, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given in my life. My mother said to me Sarah, you can always quit. Later she said, take the job, and if it's too much then you can leave. And so we, crudgingly, I took the job and it was. It was very hard, it was very painful, but it was the beginning of reclaiming myself. But it took me a long time. I really was knocked down for about 18 months.

Speaker 3: 17:15

My daughter is going to be 17 here in next month and he lost one of her goods and he struggles with it all the time. It's a three. It happened a couple of times over the past few years that he's Been at that school district one particular boy, they were real close and it hits her all the time. Yeah, it's better than blue.

Speaker 2: 17:43

They'll be like oh Thomas, like that's not as many may just go to known, but I mean it's okay to be supportive, but you know, people know sometimes I know like I'm in my little phase and people say stuff.

Speaker 5: 17:54

I'm like I ain't trying to hit her.

Speaker 2: 17:55

She, you know like how many of that, but uh, yeah, that has, that has to it is hard.

Speaker 4: 18:01

It is hard because, especially when your friends, you know, just think back, even now you probably tell your friends more than you tell your parents or your siblings or your right. So when I first lost her, there was this sort of mentality in the Lost survivor community that in order to be a suicide loss survivor you had to be famed. And that was really devastating for me because she was like my chosen family right. And now, thankfully, the community has really embraced Friends as loss survivors. But you know, I think the world often doesn't recognize. You know, and it's true with any type of loss, right, people move on and they just, you know. But I remember people saying to me when are you gonna get over it? And that was probably eight weeks after she had died.

Speaker 2: 18:45

That's the one thing that drives me crazy about this insensitive world we live in brief, that I have a deadline, that we're an expiration date.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Why. And then that's just something to say to someone young. I mean, you were young yourself, like one of you, and get over it, or you know your whole life is ahead of you and it's like Can I just sit in my morning for a moment and just now I'm able to mourn? But I know that had to have an impact on you also. Did that make you feel like you were not healing quick enough or that with that?

Speaker 4: 19:15

Oh, that made me just not talk to those people anymore. I am stubborn. Yeah, I will say, when are you gonna get over it? And I'd say I have no idea, but when I'm over, is you?

Speaker 2: 19:24

Really good lesson. You know I always say part of your mental health is your community, which is something we're talking about, you know. It's having a safe place and then having a community. You got to feel safe first, but also have a community that can back you, and it's your community doesn't back you, then you're in the wrong community.

Speaker 3: 19:39

Yeah, so I want to go back a little bit to before you became beacon, I'm gonna say, for amazing suicide prevention Seeker, author, thought leader, which I want to know exactly what a thought leader is. But I did watch a few videos of yours and there is this one in particular that I just want everybody I don't know if everybody watched a every one of your videos before watching our particular Podcast here right now but I want everybody to know a little bit of your story from your childhood about where you came from and you know you started at where you became part of the suicide life. You know suicide where that came from, but before that you know your father, your Two months, but not enough you're talking about.

Speaker 4: 20:38

Yeah, I was recent 10x that I did. That's about a concept. So you asked about being a thought leader, and that 10x is actually a really important example of what it means to be a thought leader. So most of the mental health field is talking about pathology, diagnosis, mental illness, depression, bipolar anxiety, ocd, adhd, right, it's everything's a label and for which almost always, the solution is some sort of medication and maybe some sort of therapy, right, and so being a thought leader for me means that I'm pushing back on that and I'm asking people to think about other possible ways of Conceptualizing human beings, and I'm using my personal story to to illustrate it. So what you were really referring to is that 10x and in that and it took me years to tell that story because of the prejudice and discrimination within the mental health I had to really work my way up in this field to have the oh, what's the word? The respect of Other people in this work, to be able to share that story and not fear for my professional future, which is a whole other conversation. So I, many years ago now well, several years ago I had taken a trip to the white mountains, and this is the story I tell in that 10x and Made the in this epic mist.

Speaker 4: 22:01

I make a lot of mistakes in my life and I just I really do practice pretty radical acceptance, like it is what it is and whatever happens is gonna happen, because I used to be someone who would spend days Just perseverating in like stressing and worrying and making myself sick over every little thing. I don't do it anymore for the most part. So my first mistake was that I trusted the internet when it called Lonesome Lake a short and sweet height, and maybe what I should have done is really looked at the name of the website, which was a hiker at heart. So anyway, I'm on this hike. It is a monstrous hike, absolutely stunning, beautiful, but the monstrous. I get up to the top of the mountain, I find my way back down the mountain right, and I am so unbelievably tired I actually have to pick my my legs up by the pant leg to like get it into the Jeep. We go back to the cabin we've rented. We just both of us, my husband and I and we just collapsed into the couch. Like I don't know if you've ever actually melted into the couch, but I'm gonna tell you that I actually that day.

Speaker 4: 23:02

So the second mistake I made that day was, instead of respecting my body and knowing I was too tired to try to do anything, we decided to force ourselves to go out to the dinner we were looking forward to, and as I'm sitting in this restaurant and watching all these people who are like happy and toasting drinks and eating Smelly, good smelling food, I'm just I'm starting to cry From the, the exhaustion, and I thought to myself I've never, ever, ever. And almost as soon as I had that thought, I had another thought, which is, yes, you have something about this feels familiar, and I'm sitting there, like you know, and I don't know if you've ever been so tired that you'd like your brain is foggy, so you really have to work hard to try to think I'm so, I'm trying to place it kind of like a familiar smell, and all of a sudden I realized that that was the exhaustion I felt in the weeks and months after my best friend. It died, right, and so I and I thought to myself yeah, but this is different, because this is like I know, this is physical exhaustion, but when, when she died, that was that was soul exhaustion. So that's where the word soul exhaustion, the term was born in my mind, it's been used in other places, but it actually means something different when you hear it in other places, and that's being a thought leader. Being a thought leader means that I'm willing to think Way outside the way that almost anyone else in this work is thinking. So let's see your point, rebecca.

Speaker 4: 24:20

What you're asking about is you know, the more that I thought about this soul exhaustion even though Losing my best friend to suicide was the most blatant thing that jumped out at me the more that I thought about this idea, I came to the realization that I think I was actually born with soul exhaustion. Right, and so all exhaustion, just so you know it's. I don't know what happens when you die. Like I don't know about the soul in that way on, when I use the word soul, what I'm referring to is the essence of who you are, and so I started to really think a lot about, you know, the world I was born into, and I was born into a situation where my parents were already split up. They were my mother had been dealing with a very volatile husband who was in very significant legal trouble, you know, was involved with very dangerous people, and so I think even when she was pregnant with me, her body and my body were being pumped full of stress hormones, you know. And when I was, my father went to prison. When I was born enough five, maybe five.

Speaker 4: 25:23

And then, when I was six and a half seven, I was diagnosed with all sorts of learning disabilities, including ADHD. And as a little kid, right Like I can't fight it. I can't be like, oh, ma'am, I can't pay attention right now because I'm really worried about my dad's never gonna come home, right, like I can't advocate for myself, I can't push back. I can't be like, yeah, you know what? Actually it is hard to read. It's hard to read because I'm really sad, right, and I'm worried about people, and because I'm only little and so the world saying to me you're broken, you're, you're, you're, there's something wrong, you have a disorder, right, and you need to be seen by all these doctors and leak, there's something really wrong with you.

Speaker 4: 26:02

And and at seven, I'm like, oh, my god, there's something really wrong with me. And I'm getting this bond barren of messages. I'm getting it from teachers, I'm getting it from psychologists, I'm getting it from Boston Children's Hospital. I'm definitely getting it from my peers, right, because I'm the girl whose dad's in jail right, and, by the way, this was in a time when there weren't that many Kids with dads in jail, and certainly in the community I lived in I was the only one that I knew, other than my brother. You know how do you fight back against that Right? You can't.

Speaker 2: 26:33

There's such a war going on in yourself, yeah.

Speaker 4: 26:36

I mean, I don't even know that there was a war going on in myself at the time, I just was accepting it, right. And like I'm so nothing that even my dad doesn't love me because he didn't keep himself out of trouble when he got out of jail. He moved out of this, out of the area, then he moved out of the state, then he moved out of the country, right. So like I'm so nothing that I can't do well, in school, the kids all hate me and even my own dad doesn't love me. Well then I'm getting diagnosed with all sorts of other things like oh, she has to brush, do I now Do I? Do you think that's what that is?

Speaker 3: 27:11

I feel like your story is like not, I know your story is your story and I feel like your story is very relatable to a lot of kids and a lot of teens and even adults. I'm sitting here watching it last night and I'm like, yeah, you know a lot of that stuff. You're growing up and you know I didn't have all that stuff going on, but a lot of those emotions, a lot of those thoughts, a lot of those feelings or whatever my head had gone on and transpired that. And then you know you made it through all of that stuff and it just took. You can continue your story because it's so amazing, but I just wanted to interject.

Speaker 2: 27:56

It sounds like you was just stubborn. You was gonna make it to the other side and then there is to be I'm actually very Stubborn.

Speaker 4: 28:03

I'm very stubborn and I'm actually very competitive. So one of my personal models is I take spite to motivate me. Like my mom used to say remember, I saw you, she's brilliant. She said, sarah, the greatest revenge is success, and I have to like that to the very core of my being. In fact, you guys want to know a little secret. I don't tell anybody else this, but I'll tell you.

Speaker 4: 28:23

Yeah sure, let's go. When I self-published my first novel, I had postcards made of it and I sent it to. I sent it to people who didn't believe in me.

Speaker 4: 28:33

Why you, yeah, because my, because she's right, and and those moments when I wanted to give up and and even when I could. Even now I still question myself. Of course I do I go. Oh my god, what if soul exhaustion is a stupid idea? And what if the only reason people are telling me that it's really good is because they Want to support me, because they love me, like I still have self-doubt sometimes and I just say you know what? I don't care, because what matters is when Rebecca says that meant something to me. I can ignore 500 critics if one person says your story just made a difference to me.

Speaker 2: 29:08

And it's funny because I feel like you kind of just did a whole commercial for, like, the existence of our podcast, because that that was the reason why we came up with these fucking films. It was simply because it was. It didn't have to be about conventional therapy, it didn't have to be about diagnosis, it didn't have to be about medication, which are things that I went through to and then finally happen this really, really dope therapist oh, just want to meet us up. One thing that she taught me was how to talk, and we talked for two years and in those two years, she did not recommend medication. There were things that she did recommend and exercise and this and that she was concerned about my health and me being healthy, but it was talking let's get all these things out.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Then, finally, she decided to dump me. The reason she quit on me is because she felt that I learned how to talk. She felt like now I needed to talk to people who I love. Now I needed to share what I felt with people who were affected by things that I did because of how I felt To me. That was why it was like we need to give these methods to the world. It's so many different methods out there. There's so many different ways, like you were saying that it can help with suicide prevention, that can help with depression and anxiety, not saying that people don't need traditional therapy and that people don't need medication, because some people need some medication.

Speaker 3: 30:31

I know he has a nose ring, so that's what he keeps picking at. It's literally now that I'm on this side of things and really does look like you're picking your nose, micah. I'm just singing, okay, so leave it alone.

Speaker 2: 30:45

You see what we go through Carry on, carry on.

Speaker 3: 30:47

I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 30:49

I just thought that everything that you said was kind of like the basis for why we do exist, because we're bringing any kind of method to people, because it's like there's so many methods, you just have to find on what fits you.

Speaker 4: 31:02

Glad we said that, micah, because I had the most amazing psychologist when I was a little tiny person and I was with him until my best right around when my best friend died by suicide. I was with him for a long time. He's no longer with us. His name was Dr Anthony Wolfe and he wrote a book called I'll Be Hung Before Midnight and I Won't Get Pregnant. I do another one called Get Out of my Life, but first you bring me and Cheryl to the mall, and these were all about adolescence and they were brilliant and he played an incredibly important role in my life and in my recovery, and so I'm certainly not anti-therapist. What I'm anti is putting people in boxes.

Speaker 3: 31:47

That's what I'm in. Your story has just like put everything about mental health into a box for me right now. Okay, so follow me for just the one moment, stay with me, okay? So you were a young girl who was born into not a great situation a kind of a broken home, essentially and you grew up thinking you were not enough, you were just not okay, apparently, to the world, and you began feeling like that yourself. Essentially, you were seeing a therapist. Your peers didn't look at you in the brightest light, they looked down upon you. Sounds like a typical, sounds like almost typical of the life of an average young person these days. And then you go on and you have the father dynamic, which you also went on about, further information about your father which you and I could relate on, because I have a father's story that walked it into this office a month for it. Now we probably won't have time for it.

Speaker 3: 32:52

Anyway, maybe someday you and I will talk about forgiveness, and so you start there and then you go into how you become who you are today and you don't let those things of your past deter you from becoming somebody you are today. You take what you've learned along your way and turn it into something so profound and educational and life-altering, and it's just, it's one of those stories that I feel like you can. It's like a learn everything in one place, the one that stops up. Yeah, you don't know what I'm saying. I just kind of get lost in my own head. But you get what I'm saying right. What I'm saying is that I think that you're anybody who wants to really hear a success story or a story that meets, then they should hear, they should listen to your story, because I listened to a couple of your videos last night and I just think that you have I think you have a really good story, I mean.

Speaker 4: 34:01

I don't know. Thank you, I mean, I have to be honest with you. There's so many amazing people out there in my line of work with amazing stories who are telling them, so I'm humbled and also I'm in really good company. There's a lot of people, but you know part of what I'm hearing you say, even though it's not specifically. What you're saying is the power of stories and storytelling.

Speaker 3: 34:23

Yeah, I think I'm telling people your story, talking A lot of people out there are telling their stories.

Speaker 2: 34:29

It doesn't mean that you're not in yourself, you know, and that your story isn't pretty spectacular. And then of course you have to be, because now we should talk a little bit about suicide prevention and the fact that you had to work with men doing that. Like, how did you step into that?

Speaker 4: 34:48

I grew up with a very difficult man as a father, and so I can handle very difficult men better than most people can, and so, but you know what it's really about humility? It's about going into it saying I don't know, right, and this is one of the things that sort of bothers me about the world we're living in right now is everybody thinks that they know everybody else's circumstance and you don't know. If you grew up male, you don't know what it's like to be female. If you grew up black, you don't know what it's like to be Hispanic, and if you grew up white, you don't know what it's like to be black Like and people feel that they know everything. And for me it's the exact opposite. I know I don't, and the only way that I can know things is if I learn from people who have lived through it. And it's been a lot of time talking to men, believe it or not, and saying why do you think men are dying?

Speaker 2: 35:44

Was there like a common answer?

Speaker 4: 35:45

Yeah Well, the research common answer. You know, women attempt suicide nearly four times more often than men do. Men die more often, mostly because of lethality. But why are men experiencing suicidal crisis? Right, because it's a little counterintuitive in the sense that you would think like I mean, you know, men have a lot of social privilege that other groups don't have, and actually the majority of men dying are white men, so you would expect that even less right.

Speaker 4: 36:15

But it turns out that when we talk about how, like sexism hurts men, it does right that whole boys can't cry. That hurts boys. That hurts men. We started teaching boys that they're not allowed to have sadness, they're not allowed to cry. They're not right. They have to be strong, and you know what. So if you're upset, the only way that it's okay for you to show that is anger, right.

Speaker 4: 36:41

That's how sexism has really damaged men, you know, and so I took the time to really hear from them. You know what it means to get help right and how indoctrinated men in particular are right, and so I went into it with curiosity. I never shame people, I never go oh well, this is the right way, right? That's called cultural humility. I never tell other groups of people what the right way is. I try to understand their way and then I try to find out in their way what does help.

Speaker 4: 37:14

So like, for example, in Australia, they have built these they're called men's sheds right With their garages. They're just clown sheds, but they're garages and they're filled with tools and men can go there and work on projects. So if you need a saw but you don't have one at your house, you can go to the men's shed. And so because we know that actually men in particular, but people tend to talk better side by side than face to face, that's why the best conversations happen in the car, right.

Speaker 4: 37:42

So you build these men's sheds where men can come and work together, and so it really became about trying to understand. But also and we're making progress, but not fast enough at all In suicide prevention. I have spent a lot of time, a lot of time talking to people who have survived suicide attempts and really trying to understand, like what led up, and I don't doubt it, I don't argue with them their experience I don't go well, the research shows right, but I've heard enough of the same things over and over and over again that I'm pretty sure I have a pretty good grasp on how it happens.

Speaker 2: 38:21

You know what.

Speaker 2: 38:22

And so I went and threw a lot of sexual assault when I was younger and I remember my mom taking me to therapists but I always remember people making it my fault.

Speaker 2: 38:31

I was too feminine or you hung around too many girls, you have a way with you, or you should try to play basketball, be more masculine, and it's like you know, it's like grew up for a long time thinking kind of like you said earlier, you know, it's kind of like well, if this is a therapist and he professional and he telling me it's my fault, then it is my fault, you know, and something I'm doing is wrong. So it's kind of cool that there's something that you don't do when we need more people and more therapists and more professionals out there that know how to listen but also know when to interject and when to give, I guess, the right statement and know how to say those right statements and let people know that they can be comfortable and safe in their feelings. And that is not saying that there's things out there that's not your fault, but those things are not your fault, you know.

Speaker 4: 39:20

Listen, if you're a victim of a crime, it's never, under any circumstances, your fault. I don't care what you were wearing, I don't care what you were drinking, I don't care what you said, I don't care how you walked, I don't, I don't care. We live in a culture and we could talk for hours about this that loves to victim of blame and shame, loss it and, frankly, it puts people at risk for suicide.

Speaker 2: 39:42

It does social media, where it's so good, is also so bad. I mean, I get trolled all the time. You know people, always all by TikTok, and it's like you really cannot believe the shit you were spewing and I'm like, but yet I'm over here at peace and you're over there taking Zola three times a day.

Speaker 4: 40:01

You know, I wish I had learned when I was a kid right, because I didn't learn it until I was in my master's program that how other people treat you is a representation of them. And it wasn't until I was like right thirties, in a master's program, because they said to us like if your clients yelling at you, what are you doing? I'm like I'm sorry, I should have figured out what I did wrong. And then I tried to fix it. And they're like no, you realize that your client is showing you how they engage with people. And I was like, oh, and I wish I had learned that when I was seven, that my dad's behavior wasn't about me. The other kids at school weren't about me, none of it was about me. And exactly to your point, micah, those people on social media who act that way, that's not about you, that's about them, that's actually a big way.

Speaker 2: 40:46

I always talk about it. I had talked about it in past episodes. That was one of the big ways that I learned to get through. Trauma was when I actually revisited it.

Speaker 2: 40:56

I had like a little unconventional way that I went about my healing, because I did everything alone. You know, it was like I allowed myself to go dig into some holes that I shouldn't have dug by myself, because I ended up being exhausted, like you were talking about. But I visited situations and it was through visiting all those situations I started to realize that, even though these things were happening to me, they weren't about I, was just a vessel that anybody could have been. If it wasn't me, it might have been somebody, or most likely it would have been somebody else, but these people still would have done these things, and it was something about that that comforted me a little bit, because it allowed me to know that it wasn't me. I'm not the person that's making people do these things to me, you know.

Speaker 2: 41:40

So that was a really, really dope lesson that I learned on my own. But I don't recommend anybody doing those things by yourself, because sometimes that's not healthy. It wasn't healthy how I kind of went on my mental health journey and I'm still kind of like you said, every day, we are still on this journey, but I never want to get to the point where I ever want to think about suicide, you know. So it's like it's important to have a community and that's kind of what we're trying to start here.

Speaker 3: 42:06

I wanted before we had to get off here. I just wanted to touch on your book a little bit. I know we talked a little bit about the. I forget the title of it, but there's one called the Price, good Night, great. And then there's a series of books Gut, grit and the Grind that you wrote with Dali Spencer-Thomas and Frank King Yup yeah. And then the other one with the police. I didn't write that title down, no that one, you said that one.

Speaker 4: 42:39

That's the Price. The Price is the one. Oh, we've got the Price, okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 42:42

Okay, okay, oh yeah, so tell us about those yeah.

Speaker 4: 42:47

Well, the Gut, grit and the Grind actually have one sitting right here. I'm super proud of this series of books. I love all my books and I'm proud of all of them, but this was a really special project. Basically, what happened is I was working with first responders and they would tell me one-on-one of these absolutely amazing stories, right, and I always would. I would be like gosh, I wish this guy could have heard the guy I talked to yesterday, like I wish that I could get them to tell each other these stories Right, because they're telling me, because I'm safe, because I'm a therapist, also because I'm female Right, I'm not of the first responder community, but I really wish I could get them to tell each other. So I called up one of my very best friends in the world she's absolutely amazing and I said, sally, I have a great idea, which, by the way, if I recall you and say that run. I said, sally, what if we could get men to share their stories and we could publish an anthology, right, a book?

Speaker 4: 43:38

So I started doing some research. I talked to a bunch of men and I was like, what would you want in a men's mental health book? Like, we put out surveys, we did all this stuff and they said, look, we want to hear from the experts, like 15, 20%, but mostly we want to hear from other men who have been through hard days, brilliant, right. And I said, ok, well, how do we do this, like, how do we put it together? And one of them said to me I think like a car manual. Like you know, we all understand how to use a car manual. And I was like, oh OK, so I got into my back then Volkswagen Beetle and I pull out the car manual and I'm walking through it. So if you go through any one of our books, you will see it is written somewhat in a format of a car manual and it goes through all different types of situations.

Speaker 4: 44:20

The red book this is for the overhaul, after a breakdown. So this is sort of when life has really really hit very difficult times like suicide, addiction, violence, those types of things. But each book has a different series. The blue book is the first one and that's an overview of the whole series. But what's so powerful is we brought together a community of over 40 men, definitely from around the country, but also we have writers from Australia and their stories are just amazing, amazing, amazing, like you wouldn't believe the things that these men have overcome. And they used their stories and we helped them to write them in what's called the hero's journey, so that it's not all. A lot of times might go when people share their stories. They like to share all the doom and the gloom and the trauma and the sort of shocking pieces. And then they're like yeah, now I'm great, right, right, but in the hero's journey.

Speaker 4: 45:15

Only like 20% of the story should be the dark. The rest of it should be how'd you get out of there? And so we helped all of these storytellers to tell their stories in the hero's journey model, and it's just breathtaking what these men have been through. But the other piece of it is their courage to share, their courage to write these stories. I mean, we have police officers, firefighters, olympians and so on Olympians, like you know, and everyday people, right, we have one guy who had been battling with substance use really severely, woke up in the hospital to find out he had killed somebody in a drunk driving accident, right. So we have yes, we have the superhero tips of people, but we also have very everyday people who became superheroes.

Speaker 4: 46:01

And I think that, of all the work I've done, I'm very, very proud of that project. The other one is my story about a police officer, and I did that because I kept sharing, like I don't even know how that could happen, or I don't even know, and I said you know what? The best way to help people understand why an officer might end their life, but also what happens to their family and what happens to the department, is to tell the story and because I didn't want to share any one story, I wrote it. So that's what that book is. And then Good Night Grace is. It was probably one of my easier projects, although it took a long time, but it was one of my easier projects. But it's kind of my heart project because Good Night Grace is based on a story of a little girl who had been removed from her parents' custody due to substance use and didn't understand why her mom didn't love her and I had excuse me.

Speaker 4: 46:55

I had to go and have a conversation with this child and try to help her understand her mother's substance use disorder and I realized this needs to be a book and so, with her permission, I wrote the book. I had help because I'm not a children's writer, so I had somebody I call it Kidify. I wrote it and then she Kidified it and then did all the illustrations, which are absolutely it's a sloth, and so I brought it over. The first book that I Happy I Got, I brought over to the child whose story this is and I said you don't ever have to tell anybody that this is about you, but I wanted you to have the first copy, and so the next day she went to school and she's like book. There's a book about me.

Speaker 3: 47:33

I think I would have done the same thing. Yeah, yeah, Yay, yay, yay, yay, yay yay.

Speaker 4: 47:38

Yeah, that's the power of story, you know what. But it's also. We have a choice to make every day, and I know it's not as easy as I'm going to make it sound, but this is how I looked at it and it's helped me. I can let that thing end me. I can let it devastate me to the point where I don't want to exist anymore. I don't know if I do exist anymore and I feel as though I'm just a shadow. Right, that can happen. Or I can take that terrible thing and I can do something that matters with it, and that's the choice that I make every day. I'm gonna do something that matters with this terrible thing and honestly, I think back to your point, rebecca, earlier. How did I get here? I think that's really been in. It is. I have taken all of these terrible things and you guys are doing it right now too. Right, micah, you're talking about it. You're taking all this pain and you're turning it into something that matters, that helps other people, and that's how we recover.

Speaker 4: 48:31

Book two oh, you did.

Speaker 2: 48:33

Yeah, I just got. I self-published it also. But yeah, I wrote a book. Yeah, love Behind the Battle. You guys check it out. It's pretty dope. It's about my journey with cancer and I feel like I survived cancer through love. It was a lot about learning how to love even my cancer in order to get through it. So it's a pretty unique story. But I wanted to take a crack at a writing and I don't know why that had to be the first book, but I'm already on like book number five.

Speaker 3: 48:59

Who knew he could write. I'm not even nice, really well.

Speaker 2: 49:05

She's part of my trauma. She's like there's someone like this for you.

Speaker 3: 49:09

Yeah, I'm like. Somebody else wrote this. Are you guys siblings, Right?

Speaker 2: 49:13

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 49:14

We worked together in our day job, so yeah, we worked together in our day job.

Speaker 2: 49:18

I actually was doing podcasting and I thought that Rebecca would be really, really good for it, and she hasn't disappointed it, so it's been pretty cool. It's been pretty cool, but she is also my best friend, so but we do fight a lot, so different.

Speaker 3: 49:31

I don't tell him what he wants to hear.

Speaker 2: 49:33

And it's not so much that I just really love everybody and I'm one of those people and I make excuses for everybody.

Speaker 3: 49:38

And I have to be like Micah. Listen, you can't help everybody in the world. I know you want to. It's great that there comes a time when you gotta take care of you.

Speaker 2: 49:50

And I'm working on that. I'm working on that. But, sarah, before we go, because time is running short on us, right, suicide a little bit, because we know there's people out there that are thinking about it. There are people out there that go on through horrible things and they think that is the only option they have. What is your advice?

Speaker 4: 50:06

I mean, look, there's 988, which is a wonderful resource. Right, it's the suicide prevention lifeline, but it doesn't have to be a suicide crisis. You can call them and just get support. They're amazing. I love 988.

Speaker 4: 50:18

Yeah, but the other thing is there's so many things out there that are peer support, depending on what state you're in, but there are. If you can't find things that are in person, you can find things online. And finding other people, like you said before, micah, finding your community, the place where people understand you and accept you, is so, so, so, incredibly important, and so I always recommend friend. I like the term Anamkara, which in Gaelic means a soul friend, and when I heard this woman on TikTok explain it, what she said is it's where all of the half truths and false pretenses melt away. It's who's that person, and a lot of us already have that person in our life, but we don't prioritize that just because we're all so busy. So I would say really important find your community.

Speaker 4: 51:08

Find there's so many amazing humans in this world. Find them. And also just Google. There's all sorts of resources If you go onto the internet and Google, depending on where you are. If you're a lost survivor, I have to recommend the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. They holds, yes, they do the out of darkness walk. That's what everybody knows them for. They do do that. But they also hold support groups for lost survivors.

Speaker 2: 51:35

And then it might be a reasonable question and I might just be answering it, asking it a different way. But our podcast, our audience, is our people who are like I feel like something may be wrong, or I feel like I might have some mental health issues but I don't have the support or the family. Or I remember growing up always hearing that a therapist was for white people, only white people, in the therapy. So what would you say to someone who doesn't know how to take that first step in reaching their healing?

Speaker 4: 52:11

Well, I think you have to do some soul searching, right? I will say the thing that's really important to know about therapy is it's all about finding the right one. Just because you go into the store and you see a pair of sneakers that look nice doesn't mean they're gonna fit you or be comfortable for you, right, and sometimes you have to try on more than one pair of sneakers. So people have this idea that like, oh, I have a therapist's phone number, you're going to call them, they're going to be the right one, and when it doesn't work out, they go see therapies. Not for me, no, that therapist wasn't for you.

Speaker 4: 52:39

Psychology Today has a website that's super easy because you can go in and use filters like your insurance, your location in person or virtual and then you can sort of see what is this person that specialized, what's their area of interest. They have pictures up, right. You can get a feeling. It's not like the old days where you're going through the yellow pages. So I really like Psychology Today to help find a therapist. I'm also gonna say it's not really helpful right now, but I am working on my next book, which is Soul Exhaustion and Soul Care, which is really digging into that who I am right, because sometimes I believe it's not about a mental health condition or illness or problem. It's that something has happened to who we are and we have to do that work, like you were talking about Micah of digging deep right and figuring that out again. Who am I? And not just I don't care what everybody else, who are you really?

Speaker 2: 53:35

I'm that angel of day to day Potential is different from who you were yesterday. I tell people I grew up every single day. Every day, I am more mature than I was yesterday. What's with the look, rebecca? You know what we gonna talk offline. Don't even worry about it. This might be your last. You might get fired today, you know.

Speaker 3: 53:55

I'm not worried. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

Speaker 2: 53:59

Is there anything that you wanted to tell the audience that we didn't give you a chance to say?

Speaker 4: 54:05

If you wanna keep track of the sole exhaustion and sole care workbook, please go to my website and where it says subscribe to the blog, click on that, because I really don't write blogs, but what I do send out is announcements about things like the workbook. So if you wanna know when that's coming out, please click there. And also, you know. Just a reminder to those of you who may be having a really hard time. Like I said earlier, what we know, and the research has shown us over and over and over again, is that if you can find your way through that hard time just a couple of days, a few days it almost always will get better. Not good, I'm not saying it's gonna get good, it's gonna get perfect. I'm just saying it's gonna get better than it is right now. And so what I ask people to do is just give it a little bit more time. Time is the most important thing that we have to combat any of these experiences.

Speaker 2: 54:54

And what do you do with fear of better? What is your recommendation for that, or just any advice? And I say that like people. I talked to somebody yesterday online and she was just saying that her life was in a good place, but she kept dreading something going wrong, something bad is gonna happen, like I'm doing all this work, but I know it's gonna happen. I know it's gonna happen. Is there any advice you can give?

Speaker 4: 55:17

I'm gonna say, for me personally, that's also time I felt that way. For years I felt like I was an imposter, that it had to catch up to me. There was no way I could get out of this unskate. And then now I'm at 25 years and it hasn't caught up to me yet, and I realized that sometimes we do recover, it can happen and life can be. I don't like the whole concept of happiness. I think it's a myth that leaves a lot of people very disappointed. We're never gonna have happiness. What we're gonna have is times of happiness.

Speaker 2: 55:54

And I think, peace. We also will have times of peace. You know, at times of work we're at E. So now we always like before we let our guests go, we always like to do a little bit of funny thing, because I know these conversations could be hard. So we wanted to ask about your guilty pleasure, what is something that you partake in that people would not suspect?

Speaker 4: 56:16

They don't usually suspect that I love Harleys, but they definitely, I think, are a little bit surprised that I love camping. I am a camper, I have an RV. I camp every weekend, unlike most people in my line of work who have a hard time shutting the work off not me, baby. Friday 4.30, computer closes and I'll have the camper.

Speaker 2: 56:39

I can't do that because I'm scared of bugs, but it sounds good Like I'll go camping if I could stay at a hotel, you know, and y'all keep a net around me and have a place.

Speaker 2: 56:50

But so we're gonna. Of course, we support everybody. So I wanna order your books, right, but I want them autographed, something that we require. Once you came on the podcast, you didn't know that you was gonna have to autograph some books for it and then everything will have them. But we have no problem paying for them. When I ask them for free other than your signature, because I know that you're gonna become real big and I wanna be able to sell it one day, I mean, and I wanna be able to say that I knew you Back when, back when, yeah, and I'm still gonna sell it, just to let you know.

Speaker 4: 57:19

But Well, I'll touch base afterwards. I might be able to order them, sign them and then send them to you. So let's touch base after the podcast. But thank you, that's lovely.

Speaker 2: 57:30

Oh yeah, and I will send you definitely. I will send you one of my books, a pillow, but, oh, yes, I will send you a pillow. But I wanna send you one of my books. Yes, we'll send you a pillow. These are our new pillows, so they're like our comfort support pillows. As you see, I squeeze them so much because conversation, you know, especially dealing with mental health, can be heavy.

Speaker 2: 57:47

Yeah, so you know, but yeah, and then it's kind of full of sand. They're not this big. This was like my little flawed method, but you know, you just scan the QR code. You can listen to our podcast, so I love it. Well, yeah, so we're gonna send you a pillow, so we need your address. But I'm also gonna send you a copy of my book and maybe you'll get a chance to read it and give me some advice. Absolutely, I wrote this book and I'm gonna tell you I thought it was 3,000 pages. Do you hear me? I just knew that when I got it printed it was gonna be this big and it's like a pamphlet and I'm like where all the words go. But, sarah, thank you so much for coming on. We're definitely gonna give everybody your contact information. We're gonna stay in contact. We hope to have you back on, because I feel like there's a million more things that we can talk about and we appreciate you and thank you guys for watching and we'll see you next week. And, rebecca, I heard you've been getting home.

Speaker 2: 58:44

Maybe, We'll see you next week.

Speaker 5: 58:47

And with that we're wrapping up another episode of the Fucking Feelings Podcast. Thank you all for tuning in and engaging in another intense and real discussion on understanding and navigating through our feelings. Don't forget we're here each Wednesday bringing you brand new episodes filled with stories, advice and perspectives to help you handle those fucking feelings. So set a reminder on your calendar, grab your headphones and join us every week. And if you're interested in exploring more ways to deal with life stresses, make certain to tune in to our sister podcast. Trauma is expensive. Dive deep into discussions on managing trauma, building resilience and fostering healing, with new episodes dropping every Monday. Make sure to subscribe, rate and comment on both podcasts on your favorite podcast platform. Remember, each comment and rating can catapult us further towards reaching those individuals who could really use our discussions. Your feedback is invaluable. Before we close, we want to remind you that discussing feelings is never a sign of weakness but a display of courage. Stay brave, stay strong and keep feeling those fucking feelings Until next week. Take care and keep the conversation going.