The Road to Self Liberation, Debi Adams' Battle with the Shadows of Her Past | Season 3 - Episode 312

In the latest must-hear installment of "These Fukken Feelings Podcast," Episode 312, we are joined by the incredibly inspiring Debi Adams. Her remarkable story of transformation from the dark depths of abuse to the empowering heights of healing is a masterclass in human resilience and self-empowerment. Tune in as Debi bravely unveils the stark realities of overcoming the scars of emotional grooming, abduction trauma, and the lingering pressures of guilt and shame so commonly borne by survivors.

This emotional excavation is more than just a raw recount; Debi offers us a roadmap to recovery, speaking candidly about her pivotal decision to author "Winning Over Shame: Overcoming Sexual, Emotional, and Psychological Abuse." Her unfiltered narrative provides an intimate look into the healing journey, discussing breakthrough therapies and the value of robust support systems that can help one reclaim their silenced voice.

With grace and depth, our conversation delves into the post-traumatic quest to rebuild trust, nurture relationships, and bravely face mental health adversities. Debi's story is a living testament to the fact that abuse is in no way the victim's fault—her words echo the potent truth that healing paths are always accessible, edging towards acceptance and unconditional love.

Whether you're seeking solace, understanding, or the keys to unlock your own story of resilience, this episode stands as a beacon of hope. Tune into Episode 312 for an enlightening discussion that honors personal courage and is an homage to the unconquerable spirit that resides in every one of us.

#Podcast #Resilience #HealingJourney #AbuseSurvivor #MentalHealthAwareness #EmotionalGrooming #TraumaRecovery #SelfEmpowerment #TherapyInsights #SupportSystems #ReclaimingVoice #PTSDConversation #FosteringHealing #SurvivorStrength #OvercomingShame #DebiAdams

Make sure not to miss this powerful episode of "These Fukken Feelings Podcast" that could be the difference between despair and hope for those finding their way back from the brink.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

You don't have to be positive all the time. It's perfectly okay to feel sad, angry, annoyed, frustrated, scared and anxious. Having feelings doesn't make you a negative person. It doesn't even make you weak. It makes you human and we are here to talk through it all. We welcome you to these fucking feelings podcast, A safe space for all who needs it. Grab a drink and take a seat. The session begins now.

Speaker 2: 0:33

What is up, guys? Welcome to these fucking feelings podcast. I am Micah and we got Rebecca over here with me. She's virtually co-hosting from California. She got me all abandoned and alone inside of our studio and we have our very, very special guest, Debbie Adams Now almost said Alan right, and how many times does that happen to you?

Speaker 3: 1:01

She was a beautiful woman.

Speaker 2: 1:03

She was, she still is and she's still alive, probably yes, okay, I was like oh, I think she's still alive. And Debbie, one thing that we like to do here is we ask our guests to introduce themselves, because I don't want to leave anything out, and all of you is important. So, if you can, please tell our audience a little bit about you.

Speaker 3: 1:23

Okay, Well, I am a part-time nanny, a job that I've held between part-time and full-time for about 30 years. I am the author of Winning Over Shame Overcoming Sexual, Emotional and Psychological Abuse. I am divorced single, Do I? Happily? So Really focusing on trying to get my story out there, letting people know that if you were abused and you feel like it's your fault, it isn't and there's a way to let go of that blame for something that you didn't do. Definitely, and that's a really toxic type of shame. It's very tricky.

Speaker 2: 1:58

Yeah, and it's crazy because I think a lot of us actually deal with that shame in just so many aspects of our life, but especially in abuse. As we always tell you guys, if something doesn't feel right, most likely it's not right. Find your safe place, your safe person, talk to people about it and make sure that you are okay before anything else. Absolutely Cool. So now let's get a little bit into your story, if that is okay. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 2:30

Oh I know it's a pretty horrible tale, but it's cool because it's ending up inhaling for you and that's pretty amazing and you're sharing it with the world, so that's awesome as well. But let's start from the beginning.

Speaker 3: 2:47

Start from the beginning. For me, the beginning was between three and four years of age, actually, and you were, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 2:55

You remember that time?

Speaker 3: 2:57

I do. I absolutely do. My father had attempted committed suicide, or maybe he was playing it committing suicide. In the case, I was between three and four and he was in the bathtub and my mother and baby sister were not home and he basically made me pull him out of the bathtub and jump up and down on his chest, which if he was awake and alive he didn't need CPR. But I think it was part of the grooming of me and I felt like that was my fault that he did that.

Speaker 3: 3:26

And I must have done something wrong, because at the same age we had a set of puppies and I went out to play with them one morning and they were dead. One of them was dead and my father went out and the rest of them were under the porch, also dead. They had eaten glass, according to him, and he said somebody left the door open. And yeah, I was a four year old. It must have been my fault, because my parents couldn't have done it, even though I didn't remember doing it. And that was the beginning of really thinking that I was something wrong and I didn't. I shouldn't even exist. It wasn't that I did wrong things, but I was something wrong.

Speaker 2: 4:02

That is sounds pretty tough for a four year old because I know 24 in fill in their way.

Speaker 3: 4:10

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 4:12

So then things just went downhill from there, huh.

Speaker 3: 4:15

Well, when I was nine, my parents were divorced by this point and my father took my sister and I after a visitation and just kept us Wow, it was basically an abduction and he left me for a lot of the time in the care of four adults five adults that I just called them and they were sadistic and really, really bad people. Yeah, I can imagine, you know, if they could make me hurt. Somehow that made them happy.

Speaker 2: 4:43

Now, is this something that just happened to you, or did they do it to your sister as well?

Speaker 3: 4:47

I would like to believe that I protected my sister completely. I think the odd eye didn't, but I certainly did block a lot of what didn't happen to her, and she became my reason to be alive.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Definitely, and I'm glad that it's so crazy to say I'm glad that she was there, but I'm glad you had a reason because you're here now to talk to the story. Yeah, rebecca, take it away, rebecca, what you got for me.

Speaker 4: 5:12

Well, I know I was enjoying well, not enjoying, but I was listening to her story. So I feel like she has more to tell. So I just wanted to keep hearing and I don't have any good questions just yet. So well.

Speaker 3: 5:31

The book follows me from my beginning when I was three or four, pretty much till 2011.

Speaker 3: 5:41

And so after the abduction, we ended up back with my mother, who it was a whole other story. I didn't want to be with her, I didn't trust her or feel safe with her, and so it really shows you the way the maladaptive behaviors can take place as you go through life and how it the ramifications of it never stopped. When I was 21, I ended up in a psychiatric hospital, ended up on disability. Also, I did three months of different hospitals that kept readmitting me, and in the last one I met my ex-husband and he fit all my requirements in life, which was he wanted me. Those are my entire requirements, and when you're set at that low, you just nothing good comes of it. And so we were together for 12 years and in the beginning it was really wonderful. It filled my needs. I had somebody there 24 hours a day with me and it was like magical. Unfortunately, we got a computer and he got onto AOL and got into a lot of extreme interest sexually, which ended in the end to us being in a swinging group.

Speaker 3: 6:54

And so it was a group of 10 or 12 people Well, 10 or 12 couples anyway. They weren't all there every time, but they became our social outlet. It's what we did on the parties, it's what we did on our weekends when we weren't at parties, and it was just a completely sexualized atmosphere all the time, which was very familiar to me.

Speaker 2: 7:14

Well, now, was that something oh, that's our grass. Was that something that you were okay with or something you did because of him?

Speaker 3: 7:20

I insisted that I was okay with it, very, very loudly so nobody could possibly contradict me. It was familiar, so it was comfortable and horrible at the same time. There were parts of it I really enjoyed. I enjoyed the flirting and the teasing and the playing games. If I could just left the sex out of it, that would have been better.

Speaker 2: 7:41

Now I know I was reading about CPTSD. That's it All right.

Speaker 3: 7:47

CPTSD.

Speaker 2: 7:49

Okay, I said it wrong CPTSD.

Speaker 4: 7:55

All right, here we go.

Speaker 2: 7:58

So actually that was the first time I ever heard of that.

Speaker 3: 8:00

Okay.

Speaker 2: 8:01

So it's complex. Post-traumatic stress disorder Right.

Speaker 3: 8:05

Often, post-traumatic stress is caused by one very severe incident, with complex it's a series of it, so it was something you couldn't get out of it. It goes on for an extended period of time.

Speaker 2: 8:18

So when did you finally realize, like, this isn't the life I want, this isn't the husband I want. I need to get out of all of this.

Speaker 3: 8:28

That came from outside of me. He had, at the end, met a woman who he said was his soulmate and he loved her. She had children and a husband. I had no intention of leaving them and he didn't want me to leave him. He thought he should be able to just have both and so in the end it became violent and I bit him because I was afraid he was going to hurt me further and he called the police and I refused to press charges and he very happily pressed charges. So a judge ordered me no contact with him until I get back to court, which ended up being six or eight weeks, wow. And I spent the year before that trying to fix it, trying to make it work, just everything I could imagine. So there wasn't any niggle in the back of my head and actually when I saw him when we were back to court, I didn't recognize him at first, like who is this balding big guy and why is he talking to me? They were just total disconnected. I didn't recognize him at all for a minute.

Speaker 2: 9:28

Wow, that's pretty interesting.

Speaker 3: 9:30

Yeah, who's bizarre.

Speaker 2: 9:32

I know very bizarre. It's like you have been through, like we ain't even 10 minutes into this.

Speaker 4: 9:38

I know I mean we got really far into it. Is nanny-ing like a high point in your life? Is that like your-?

Speaker 3: 9:44

Definitely is one of those keep me stable and strong in the life kind of thing, because when little kids are depending on me, I can't go off the deep end Right, right Now. How?

Speaker 2: 9:56

is it being a nanny? See like I don't have any kids and I don't want any.

Speaker 3: 10:01

Okay, and then?

Speaker 2: 10:02

every time I see somebody with a child, it's like I consider it for a few minutes, and then it's like I still-.

Speaker 4: 10:10

Do you have children of your own?

Speaker 3: 10:13

No, I was not able to have children, and then I decided I didn't want to have children with him, right? So I just chose not to have them.

Speaker 2: 10:21

So then, how did nanny-ing come into the picture?

Speaker 3: 10:25

That I was actually doing from right after high school.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Oh, okay.

Speaker 3: 10:29

So I had always taken care of kids, either paid or not paid, since when my father abducted me. At that point I was watching the older siblings. He did childbirth, and so I was watching the older siblings while their mothers were giving birth. Wow, so it's always been a part of my life.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Yeah, so you do like to live in anything.

Speaker 3: 10:50

Only when I was younger. Okay, at 55, it's really hard to do that.

Speaker 2: 10:54

I can imagine You're just like you're raising somebody else's kid.

Speaker 3: 10:59

Absolutely, and I'm very proud of the children that I raised. Her help, grace.

Speaker 2: 11:03

That's pretty amazing, and it's amazing that you can actually have the life that you have but still want to spread joy. So we commend you for that. So, winning over shame. When did you realize that you wanted to tell your story? Actually, before we even go there. When did you realize that you were ashamed of your life and the things that happened to you? Was there something that was always present?

Speaker 3: 11:31

Yes, it was very important to keep it hidden and that nobody now.

Speaker 2: 11:35

Right, see, I too actually am a sexual abuse survivor and it was kind of the same thing for me, like I kept it quiet for a long time and now I don't shut up about it because I'm like, look, I'm about to tell everybody. But I really understand that shame aspect of it. And a lot of shame for me came from the parts that part of me enjoyed it. My body reacted to and it wasn't that I enjoyed it, but I felt like my body reacted to it, right.

Speaker 3: 12:04

Your body would do that if it was forced.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Right, and if I was enjoying it, I had to if my body was reacting to it. You know so that a lot of shame came from that as well.

Speaker 3: 12:15

Yeah, I actually got to the point where I was initiating sexual things with them just to keep me safe and to keep some feeling like I was in control. I was not in control, but I felt like if I did that I could shortcut anything worse that they were doing and you know to use them. So it did moderate their behavior.

Speaker 2: 12:37

It's like crazy that you had to think that way as a nine year old, yeah, you know. And what's even crazier is that there's so people that's probably still nine year olds in this world that still have to think this way, and that's why I think your story is so important, because you fought your way out of that, and that's pretty amazing.

Speaker 3: 12:56

Yeah, for sure, thank you. In terms of when did I know I wanted to write the book? Probably in the early 2000s. I got into a really good therapist and support group in 2007, I think it was and I learned to start developing relationships and to have the beginnings of trust with other people. And people kept telling me you know your story is not average or boring, or you know what happens to you is not nothing, and I can write. It's a skill that I have. So about 10 years actively preparing to write the book and then about a year and a half writing it.

Speaker 2: 13:39

She's a lot, a lot. A lot of your blood, sweat and tears went into this book.

Speaker 3: 13:43

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 13:45

So of course, we're going to list all of the links and point everybody in the direction of your book and your website and those things. So how so? Therapy? You went to therapy. When did that happen? When did you decide that you needed therapy?

Speaker 3: 14:00

I met that therapist in 2006. I've been in therapy since junior year in high school. There was a four year gap when I wasn't, but other than that I'd always been in therapy. Unfortunately, I didn't trust Therapists and mine left every year or two because it was a training hospital, so it was just putting out fires. You know, living day today and getting through until the next week. I did twice a week for, oh, probably 15 years.

Speaker 1: 14:31

Well, now was there a?

Speaker 2: 14:31

good choice of yours, sorry. Okay.

Speaker 3: 14:35

I wanted to figure it out. I wanted to know why I felt so horrible, right?

Speaker 4: 14:41

Did you do any other sorts of therapies for lack of better word other than just the Therapist type of therapy like meditation, yoga, anything like that?

Speaker 3: 14:56

Yeah, I went in medication in my very early 20s for bipolar disorder and Anxiety and you know all the things that come along with that. So they like you. You pills for all those things.

Speaker 2: 15:07

Yeah, yeah, you say, you do not claim no more right.

Speaker 3: 15:11

I still take medication. I just don't claim myself as crazy.

Speaker 2: 15:17

I'm gonna say we all a little crazy. Clinically crazy right, but clinically crazy. Yeah, I get that, but I'm like I know I don't have some psycho moments in my life, so and so was it hard to start building up your self-confidence through all this like how, I guess what. When was the moment that you knew that those things were not who I am and this is who I am, and you're probably still on the journey I'm, I'm guessing?

Speaker 3: 15:49

we are all still on that journey. The end of the book actually takes place in 2011, and it's a day that I was perfectly happy. There was no oh, I wish I hadn't woken up. No Depression, no wishing I was dead, none of that. And what, if really any fear? You know, back at that point in my life there probably should have been, but it just was a moment and a day where I felt happy, like I imagine most people feel happy all the time, and so I did the normal thing.

Speaker 3: 16:19

I freaked out and call my therapist and said what am I gonna do? I Feel happy. What am I gonna do? Not laugh at me, the Debbie. You know that feelings pass. I always pass and and just try to enjoy it. So we had like a 15-20 minute conversation about what I should do that day and I did, and I went out and they walked my dog and smiled at people and went out to dinner with my best friend and it was a really good day and you know, it did pass and it was a little sad. I think it's like when people take drugs, that first time you take it and Then every time you're trying to chase that perfect first time again, I. In some ways it was like that and never has been quite as miraculous since. But I don't get tired of being happy.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Right, right, that's a very good answer when, oh my god, I lost my question.

Speaker 3: 17:14

I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 17:15

Oh no, I think of like a million. I think, a million miles an hour, mm-hmm. I always have ten questions in my head and when you try to put ten questions together they don't come out right. No, you know, but when did so? I know we were talking about, like the Wishing you were dead or wishing you weren't here, and those kind of things. What motivate you to still be here or to not. I don't want to say not to go like, but to not fall into that kind of downfall.

Speaker 3: 17:51

For the longest time. It was my sister, primarily, and then other people that I knew, because I have seen what suicide does to people, even when they're very peripheral to the person who did it. And I raised children. So what if they found out? And I would Really mess with their heads. So really it was to not hurt people I cared about.

Speaker 2: 18:13

Okay, and when did it become about you and not hurting you?

Speaker 3: 18:18

Probably when I gave it up. I, yeah, I had gotten very weird with self injury and had been in the hospital and I could see my therapist starting to pull back a little bit Because I think she was afraid I was gonna actually kill myself at that point and I, it was this big shock of you know, if she can't handle this, what am I gonna do? I got to get control over this.

Speaker 2: 18:46

Right, she's paid for this. If she can handle it, then yeah, so it's cool. So you kind of started to find those things within yourself a little bit.

Speaker 3: 18:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:00

God.

Speaker 3: 19:01

I Started to learn how to have relationships with other people and to realize that what people show on the outside is not who they really are. Right, everybody puts a cover on they look better than they are. So I've been comparing my inside if a bail is outside my whole life.

Speaker 4: 19:16

Okay.

Speaker 3: 19:18

And as I knew more people in the center in a support group you know you said your mask when you walk in the door I Learned how similar I was to many people.

Speaker 1: 19:27

All right.

Speaker 3: 19:29

And how normal some of what I felt was.

Speaker 2: 19:32

So how, how difficult was that learning to trust people? And I asked, because I still have an issue. I probably went to about 14 years of kind of molestation and sexual assault and those kind of things and then I Kind of went through a battle with cancer and I almost died and I had killing for a young. So I kind of went through a lot of different types of trauma, but I always I recognize now that I still don't like to be touched by men, you know, which is really hard, because I have to go to a barber shop once a week, right, because this is where women have it easy. Right, you always complainin, but you could just wear your same hairstyle and be good and not wash it.

Speaker 2: 20:17

You know, Well, you know, I think about like these hairstyle, like a micro braids, you know, Like women to get braids and then like have it for three months. And I was like I wish I could get braids for three months and didn't have to worry about getting a haircut once a week, because I I'm always tense in a barber's chair when he's cutting my hair and and it's like, okay, now he's lining me up, so now he's touching my face or he touches the lips, and it always makes me feel like so I feel like I'm still working on my trust issues. Am I born? You were back on my story.

Speaker 4: 20:52

No, I'm sorry Because of the time difference.

Speaker 2: 21:01

So people don't know, so I don't know. We explained another episode. Rebecca is actually in California working, so that's why she's here virtually. And then our, our producer is actually taking a sabbatical Because she has some things going on with her kids, and nothing negative. Her daughter plays volleyball and she's just a very supportive mom. So they leave me here to myself and by myself and that's kind of traumatizing too. But back to you, debbie. So when did you? I know you said building relationship with people, but how hard was that for you? And then how did you get through that?

Speaker 3: 21:37

It was utterly terrifying, right, yeah, I had my therapist and we spent most of every section unpacking the group sessions. I've been in two days before usually, and you know the shame I felt when I opened my mouth and said something and maybe somebody didn't take it the right way, or the fear that people thought that I Thought I was better than them. You know, all these things that run through everybody's head were just crashing in on me and I wanted to stop and I didn't. And then I'm kind of backwards and Learned how to make very casual friendships. I had a dog and we went to the dog park and we had this group of ten people or so that would show up there every night and we'd stay for two or three hours and you know, you didn't really share anything deeper. Meaningfully. You talked about your dogs, but they were nice people and they counted me as a friend and I learned that I don't have to share with everybody. I wanted to. Every time I met somebody I wanted to just board it all out at them.

Speaker 2: 22:41

I think I do it all the time I wanted to explain my face.

Speaker 4: 22:46

I made Okay, just a few seconds ago, because I Realized in my mind that maybe that face was a little offensive, maybe, but I didn't mean it that way. I, when you said that you worry about what you say, can sometimes upset people or offend them or whatever. That is a constant thing For me, so I know exactly what you mean by that. A lot of times I don't even realize. A lot of times I don't even realize that when I speak I often might say something or do something that does upset or offend somebody and I'm just going about my day and I don't know any better, I guess, and I don't know why I do that. I just feel like I'm just being me saying my thing.

Speaker 4: 23:46

And a lot of times when I was growing up I'll actually give you a little bit of my background. I was born into a family with five children. I am one in the middle between two sets of twins, so I often didn't get listened to or heard or paid attention to, so I often just got talked over. So maybe now I'm thinking I say what I need to say without thinking, just so that I do get heard, because even still to this day, people talk over me, people don't listen to me. So you know it's.

Speaker 2: 24:37

You're talking about me, Debbie. She's talking about me.

Speaker 4: 24:40

Yeah, I am, so I know what you mean by that. So we all have, and I don't have the kinds of traumas that two of you have expressed.

Speaker 2: 24:52

You know, there's one thing that we need to eliminate on this show there's no size when it comes to trauma.

Speaker 4: 24:57

I know, I know I'm just saying no sexual trauma. I've had my own sorts of traumas.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Definitely.

Speaker 4: 25:06

But I still struggle with knowing the right types of social correctness. I guess, I don't know, because of the way I grew up.

Speaker 3: 25:24

Yeah, the worst for me, at the worst of it, was when I would smile at somebody and they wouldn't smile back or they'd look away or whatever, and I felt like I must be a horrible person. And this person didn't even want me to smile at them. That got to as extreme as it got and my therapist is like Debbie, you can't live in this world if you can't walk down the street without feeling like a bad person.

Speaker 2: 25:48

Right, oh, yeah, that's it. Now. So you kind of I feel like you say something that kind of always goes in line with kind of one thing I say. I say that I was able to overcome my trauma when I started to realize that it wasn't about me. You know, I was kind of a subversive at the time, but these people were doing it because they were messed up. You know it was about them. And I know you kind of say something similar. How did that, believe, come about?

Speaker 3: 26:20

When I started realizing that I was not black and dirty and horrible and shouldn't be, then I had to face the fact that they were Right.

Speaker 2: 26:32

And how hard is it to deal with the fact that these things that happen to you because other people are sick Isn't that kind of horrible?

Speaker 3: 26:40

For me. My father taught me things and then, coincidentally, these people required the same behaviors. So I knew that if I just could believe like he did and if it just would be normal and good like everybody else thought it was, I would be fine. But I could not make that mental leap, not even as a kid.

Speaker 2: 27:02

Yeah, of course, yeah. Well, that's sucky.

Speaker 3: 27:10

Yes, but if you get through all that in the book, then you get to see some really great things.

Speaker 2: 27:14

Okay, well, I know I wanted to ask you about group therapy Something I never did not, something I never thought about, but I can imagine just the leap in your healing journey. It went from doing a one-on-one with a therapy to now being with a group of non-professionals and a room of feelings.

Speaker 3: 27:34

Yes, well, there was one professional in the room, but yeah, One professional of course, but you know it was very scary and it took a lot of support to get through it. So what do you?

Speaker 2: 27:44

see people who feel like they can't do it.

Speaker 3: 27:49

You can do it. I mean, we have all been through the very worst that could ever happen to us and we survived it. And I know for me that worst is so extreme that I will never run across anything that hurts that badly and I will never be under that kind of control by another human being again.

Speaker 2: 28:07

Right. So what is your safe space, like? Do you have one that you go to when you feel down? And I know you say you like writing, I would do that's something that you do when the sadness starts to creep in.

Speaker 3: 28:22

I spend as much time as little kids as I can.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Okay, that'll be good. See, that little kid's a good force. See, little kids are good for two things, right? I'm going to tell you One to play with number two, chores. If I don't got to watch the business, I'll be all the way good, okay.

Speaker 4: 28:43

So if he ever does have kids, they're going to be required to work.

Speaker 2: 28:48

Work. You know what I say I want to get old enough to clean the dishes, because other than that.

Speaker 4: 28:54

I don't want to do that.

Speaker 2: 28:55

I do want to foster kids right.

Speaker 3: 28:57

Yeah, okay, I'm still torn.

Speaker 2: 28:59

I'm still torn. Yes, I want to foster them so they get the chores. It's really. It saddens me that we live in a world where people you know are not, who don't know what love is. That absolutely destroys me, you know.

Speaker 2: 29:15

And then we hear your story and I think of all the love that was absent for a majority of your life and that pains me, you know. So it's cool to see you smile and it's cool to see the love in you now, because I just met you. But one thing is that we know you have a story and it's amazingly horrible, you know. It's like you can't even phantom some of the things that you know. It's like you refer to people as them. This is not a good story. Set the alarms, you know. But it's cool to see, like, okay, the love in yourself. Now you know you're giving that to us. You know You're showing us something else, the love that you have for you, and that's pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 30:00

But it's still sad that there's people in this world that don't know that they can get to a level of healing where they can witness love. So part of me wants to bring people into my family because I feel like I have a lot of love to give, but it's also scary, because how do you love somebody past pain that they've been through? And I know it's very easy for people to say you just love them, but it's still a way that you have to do it and I don't know if I'm capable of that yet because I'm still healing myself and I'm still on my healing journey. So not that I say that I feel like there needs to be a right time, but I feel like there needs to be a right time.

Speaker 3: 30:40

You have to respect the journey and you'll always be on a journey of some sort, and the hope is that you get bigger inside so you can fit more people into your love space.

Speaker 2: 30:53

Right, right, right Okay love space.

Speaker 3: 30:55

I like that.

Speaker 2: 30:57

Okay, season 2.5 was about a safe space. We're going to make season 3 about the love space.

Speaker 4: 31:04

I like it.

Speaker 2: 31:05

I like it. Yeah, that's really dope. I never heard that. That was a very well way.

Speaker 4: 31:10

Yeah, we just stood up for us. There it is.

Speaker 2: 31:13

That was a really good way of just saying that it makes so much sense for love space. You know you got your personal space, so let's talk about that, because I'm pretty sure that you go through moments now that you feel like your personal space gets invaded, especially with all that you've been through. How do you handle those situations?

Speaker 3: 31:33

You know what? I really hardly have got triggered by anything anymore. I just overcame it. I was a victim and then I was a survivor and now I just am whole, which to me is totally miraculous and my opinion of it. In botany there's a term called I'll get it. Hold on a second.

Speaker 2: 31:59

It's okay, you have to sort it all out.

Speaker 3: 32:01

A sport, which is an organism that is genetically different than the organism that created it. It's just once in every once in a while thing that happens and I was placed in so much badness. There's really no way to know how I came out of being able to love anybody or even to stay alive, and I just because I didn't learn it from anybody. There was nobody in my life to model it for me Teachers when I got older, but that's really limited in how much it can really affect you. But somehow I was born to be able to overcome this and to love other people, even when I didn't love myself.

Speaker 4: 32:40

And to nurture children too.

Speaker 2: 32:42

That's pretty amazing, so you know what you know what, that I kind of always bring my mom up in these shows, right?

Speaker 2: 32:51

Yeah, he does my mom, my best friend, I love my mama. Okay, but one thing my mom is 73 now. She's going to kill me if you tell her age. Oh, yeah, 73. So deal with it.

Speaker 2: 33:04

But she's going through like this weird part in her life where she kind of had a similar life as far as no one ever taught her anything. Now she went through a lot of her own states of abuse and those kind of things, but she never. You know she was saying she always tells a story about how one time, like she was just out in public and she had like a whole bunch of hair under her arms and like a stranger told her like you need to cut that up. No one in her family ever taught her about grooming. And you know she was. You know my mom told stories about she disappeared at her nightgown, abatha, and like barefoot and just like be all around Puerto Rico and just do weird things.

Speaker 2: 33:46

But now she's like she goes through the guilt I feel like it's guilt of suffering that us, her children, went through, because she feels like, because no one taught her certain things, that she couldn't possibly be the best mom that she is. I feel completely opposite, you know. I feel like because of who you are and because you are completely a self made queen. You know, my mom is a goddess. You know, we've seen her rise up from nothing, and this is something that we got to witness, which is why I love strong women. You know, it is like I don't understand how women cannot be so strong, because I've always had a strong woman figure in my life, like when I grow up. I want to be a strong woman. You know what I'm saying. So that is what I want to be.

Speaker 4: 34:35

I want to be like my mom Just showed everybody my gray hair.

Speaker 2: 34:42

But what I wanted to ask, debbie, I actually wanted you to give my mom some advice, right? Because I try to always tell her, like you just got to let that stuff go, like you did. Amazing, there was never a time that I feel like she wasn't the best version of herself at that time. Yes, did she get better with time? Of course, but you always gave us the best that you could in the moment. And what you said just made me think like that's a great lesson from my mom, like she needs to like move on from those things, and I know this is very, very hard to say, but what would be your advice to my mom or people like my mom?

Speaker 3: 35:19

Start loving yourself. Take everything you've done to people and give it to yourself. Because I wanted to kill the inner child. Probably for a decade.

Speaker 3: 35:31

I just couldn't see how I could be happy with that little thing hanging around. I'd be so happy that I could just kill her. And people said it a lot. But eventually I realized that I can't kill her because she isn't really a different person, right, and it's me, and maybe that's why I wanted to die for so long. But once I couldn't kill her, I started doing a lot of imaginary fantasizing. You know, go back and talk to her, that stuff that they say. And when I was able to accept many different broken parts you know, this one happened when I was nine, this happened when I was 12. I learned to accept all of them and she wasn't ugly and dirty anymore and she wasn't a secret and she wasn't something who hurt me anymore. Right, you just have to get to that point. And many of the stories in the later part of the book are about things I did to try to come to terms with that little child that was me.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Right, and you said something I guess amazing again acceptance. You know I feel like acceptance is a big part of the healing process. Excuse me, I'm over here burping. That's real rude, like this most masculine thing I did all day.

Speaker 4: 36:48

I have a question, but I don't want to interrupt anybody.

Speaker 2: 36:52

No, no, what can I ask that question? How much? How much would you stress acceptance to people, like accepting that this happened to you or accepting you know it's like really, that's the way to kind of get past it.

Speaker 3: 37:09

You have to stop living as if that's now, that's the very first thing you have to do. You have to put some space between that and you, who you are now. I thought I was nine years old in that house for so long, probably into my 40s, because that's where I was stuck, that's where I hated myself so completely and I was being treated so horribly that I just felt it every minute of every day like it was yesterday. Wow. So you got to get that space in there, okay.

Speaker 2: 37:41

I have, rebecca, I'm going to cut you off.

Speaker 4: 37:43

Okay, now I can yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:46

Your previous has been great.

Speaker 4: 37:48

Okay, so what's your relationship like now with your sister in? I don't know if your father mother do you have a relationship with them?

Speaker 3: 37:59

My sister is my very best friend. I love her to pieces. I love her as she was my child when I was little. I love her as the person who kept me alive and who gave me some mothering growing up, and I love her because she's a wonderful, beautiful person and I like being with her.

Speaker 2: 38:15

My father. Hi sister Sue.

Speaker 3: 38:19

Sue. Hi Sue, my father. I have not had contact with him for a long time. Shortly after I met my husband I stopped contact with him and I picked it up again at one point because my sister was talking to him and I thought, well, maybe he's not so bad anymore. And that lasted less than a year and then I just had to cut him off again and I felt a little guilty, like I shouldn't have come back if I'm going to leave again, and I thought about staying because of that, and then I was just too healthy to do it.

Speaker 2: 38:46

Oh my God, my mother and my stepfather.

Speaker 3: 38:49

I mostly talk to her on the phone. I'm getting too old to travel so I don't see them very often by talking to them on the phone in limited doses.

Speaker 4: 38:59

So have you found forgiveness for your father at all? I mean, is the forgiveness that needs more.

Speaker 3: 39:08

It all became irrelevant.

Speaker 2: 39:10

Right.

Speaker 3: 39:13

I mean, he's not stuck in my head as a voice. He was a voice in my head for a long time and I don't care what happens to him, but I don't wish anything bad to him either.

Speaker 2: 39:24

Right, right, right.

Speaker 3: 39:27

It's like, if I never see you again, it's okay, I don't know there's no reason for me to, because I lost that whole side of my family.

Speaker 2: 39:35

Right, right. And they're not your family, they're your relatives.

Speaker 3: 39:38

My relatives?

Speaker 2: 39:39

yes, you were born into. That family is who you love, what you make and who you bring into your circle. I have that too, that's very important and yes, and that's clearly amazing. Have you and your sister ever had a conversation about things you went through?

Speaker 3: 39:55

In limited amounts. I asked her not to read the book and I have not told her a lot of things because I did it Keeper from getting traumatized back then, so why on earth would I want to traumatize her now? Very good answer.

Speaker 2: 40:10

You think she's stuck in red?

Speaker 3: 40:13

I know she doesn't want you. She's afraid of what you would find out.

Speaker 2: 40:16

I know Now, was there any, ever any kind of resentment or anything towards your sister because your life was harder than hers?

Speaker 3: 40:23

No, there really wasn't. I was just grateful that I had her. I tend to be a pretty grateful sort of person. I don't get resentment or envy very often. How do you do that? I always compared myself to me my whole life.

Speaker 2: 40:36

Right.

Speaker 3: 40:37

You know, I spent several years in a really bad ghetto type school system and I didn't learn much. But I did learn how to teach because the only way to get past what I was doing was to get my classmates to be able to pass the test so we could go on to the next thing. So it was partially to make them safe, because I was giving them something and then maybe they won't hurt me. Right, and I was intelligent and there was no challenge in that school. So I was only like, compare me to I didn't see anybody around me that I was trying to ride up a higher than Right.

Speaker 2: 41:17

That that's my. I tell people all the time when they tell me like I'm not perfect or nobody's perfect, and it's like who are you comparing yourself to? Because if there's only one, you, how can you not be perfect? So you kind of said that in another way. So I guess, to get serious, though a little bit, so there are a lot of people who watch us, who are on that cusp of maybe I have trauma, but I don't want to admit it, and I wanted you to ask, you know, like, what would you say to those people? What would you tell those people, those people that are watching, now that you know, number one, that story is, that story is not bad as yours, because that is a concept that people have. Oh, I should be grateful that he's only beating me because of people getting killed.

Speaker 2: 42:08

No, you should be grateful for anything that makes you feel bad. They great, great. Nothing should be in it. Okay, it's not great, you don't feel grateful. You know it's not a great time. If it feels bad, it's not for you. But so I guess I want to part question. Of course, what would you say to people who just aren't, you know, speaking up or don't know better or don't know how to take that Leap into really seeing if they have trauma? And then people who are scared of it completely?

Speaker 3: 42:36

If you think that there's something wrong, there's something wrong. People do not walk around thinking I'm a horrible person for no reason. Right, most people have some kind of brokenness in them. But to believe that you probably didn't have trauma because you can't remember it or because you think you're comparing your story to mine and yours was only blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we don't care, and pain and that's for no reason, and sometimes you don't need to know why. That's better from what I've seen in other people who don't have to dredge up the why, if you can just move forward and build habits and relationships and it just becomes irrelevant in the best case scenarios. But don't minimize yourself, I would say.

Speaker 2: 43:29

Definitely. And you know, I kind of just wanted to add and say that you might find that what you thought was bad it's not bad, but it's still worth knowing for sure.

Speaker 3: 43:40

You know it's not worth knowing for sure. Honestly, I know people that just choose to start believing in themselves and to rebuilding themselves. And you know, sometimes it's just that you had A mother who is mentally ill. That's not just. But if you had a mother was mentally ill, she didn't give you, this kid, the skills you needed as a normal, so to speak, person. She has not capable of teaching you emotional regulation, how to get along with other people or how to stand up for yourself. So even if you've never beaten or raped or molested, there was still a broken part, and we all come with broken parts.

Speaker 2: 44:23

I come with a lot of broken parts.

Speaker 3: 44:24

Me too.

Speaker 2: 44:25

But I keep a wrench and a screwdriver handy.

Speaker 4: 44:30

Oh my god, that has got to be the corniest things ever, said. I just it was. America is turning off our podcast right now.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Oh my god, no, they're not, because they're watching Debbie.

Speaker 4: 44:46

Well, after you said that, they're. I'm sorry, debbie, but I hope they continue watching. Keep watching people.

Speaker 2: 44:56

You know what, rebecca? You're fired.

Speaker 4: 45:00

No, I'm not.

Speaker 2: 45:05

Sorry, yeah, really I love. I really really, really, really, really really love.

Speaker 3: 45:13

Those little ones you treat that.

Speaker 4: 45:17

Then he does love me. Oh, my god.

Speaker 2: 45:20

I told you, I love you. I told you I got.

Speaker 2: 45:25

I was born with my mom's look, but my dad sent to you and if you weren't an ugly bitch, that means he couldn't stand your ass. So people will want to be called an ugly bitch. It's like you just gonna sit here and let him call your ugly bitch. Yes, because that means he loved me. But they knew it was his way of. He was very you know, my dad.

Speaker 2: 45:49

Actually yesterday was two years that my dad since my dad been gone passed away. Oh, yes, they was two years and I you know it's funny I was going to write something about it. Actually, when you guys see, this is going to be past all this. So October 4th was two years and and I was thinking I was going to write, write it to somebody. But I was like you know what, I'm pretty sure all I was not going to write something to somebody. I was going to make a post or social media or something, and just, you know, just honoring him, right. But I felt like the best way I can honor him was not to rub it in everybody in my family's face, you know, because I'm like you're scrolling through Facebook and you see in 13. Oh, we miss you. We wish it was never here and you know I felt like it was. I needed to let everybody grieve their own way, without adding my grieving to their grief. But it's a day after, so now I'm going to talk about it.

Speaker 4: 46:48

Fair enough.

Speaker 2: 46:50

Right. So now your book took a really long time. You released it. How it was that a big part of your healing also kind of getting it out into book?

Speaker 3: 47:02

Really, by the time it went into a book I felt healed before, largely before I started writing the hard parts, because I couldn't write any of it until I had resolved that specific issue. It just when it didn't hurt anymore. That's when I knew it was time to write about it.

Speaker 2: 47:20

Right, and then when? When did you feel it? Oh, why did you feel it was important to tell your story?

Speaker 3: 47:26

Because I didn't just survive. I think most people that experience that level of pain have become addicted to something somewhere along the line that really makes their life hard and makes it hard to come back from, and I feel so fortunate I didn't do those. I became, I had an eating disorder, which is horrible enough, but to get into those substance abuses I never would have come back out again.

Speaker 2: 47:57

So me getting choked during sex, though that's not necessarily a bad thing, right.

Speaker 3: 48:03

You getting choked up during sex.

Speaker 2: 48:07

When you having sex and you getting choked and you, oh, never mind.

Speaker 1: 48:12

We're losing.

Speaker 4: 48:15

Yeah, we're losing viewers every second.

Speaker 2: 48:19

You think so. We just gained three.

Speaker 4: 48:21

I was just going to say maybe we're gaining a lot of people like being choked out there.

Speaker 2: 48:25

Okay it's okay, Choked a little bit if you like it, If it's something that appeals to you. Remember no one thing fits all, but you should never feel in danger. You should never feel your life is as risk. You should never feel like someone's trying to harm you. Remember those things are important.

Speaker 3: 48:43

They are important.

Speaker 2: 48:44

Once you start to feel those ways. Yeah, you know, we always say find yourself a safe place so that you can find your love space. Okay.

Speaker 4: 48:55

Oh, there it is.

Speaker 2: 48:58

That was perfect. Yeah, so now we can get your book probably anywhere. Books are sold or.

Speaker 3: 49:04

Yes, I'll give you the link. You can buy it from me directly or you can get the paper back on Amazon. The ebook is on most ebook platforms, cool. Now learn to know, etc.

Speaker 2: 49:15

We're going to buy a book but I need to autograph. Okay. Okay, it's one. Look, it's one part of the deal. If you want to podcast, I need to autograph book, but we'll pay for books. So we'll definitely order it, of course, and we just believe in supporting you in your amazing journey. It's really, really cool. I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about, like you're saying like, just kind of forget about those things and they don't need to be open. And my healing was a little journey. Journey was a little different because I kind of opened and went through all those things. Oh, it's, it's kind of cool to me. It's kind of cool because I feel like we might be at our same place, almost a similar place in life where it's just say this is me, this is who I am, you know actually, you know what happiness is like to and what peace is, and that's pretty incredible. But I don't think forgetting it would have worked for me.

Speaker 3: 50:09

Wouldn't work for me either. But people that just have this little niggle that maybe there's something could be possible to be able to just resolve the feelings without getting in touch with the original trauma. That's what the MDR does a lot.

Speaker 2: 50:23

Okay, and that's a good point, and but it just goes to show you guys that there's so many ways to healing. Absolutely being happy, I'm going to say, for more than just a day, is important, but if you could just get that one day, let's start with that one day, that one hour, that one minute or a moment.

Speaker 4: 50:43

Yeah, yeah, you know it's worth discovering what makes you happy.

Speaker 2: 50:48

What's your piece, debbie? Any last words, any last advice? Anything you want to give our audience, anything that we didn't let you let you talk about, because I talked to much.

Speaker 3: 50:59

You know, not at all, but just know there are specific things that worked for me. They're in the book that people can take as it is and take something away from it and do something similar for themselves. A lot of it had to do with relationships and he's a lot of creativity. I had very magical thinking for a very, very long time, you know, like till yesterday, and so I am able because of that to, for example, take a doll and love that doll and then feel like I'm being loved as I love that doll. So there's some really cool different skills in the end of the book and I am also available to talk with groups which are from workshops which are based on the skills in the book, Plus ones I've learned since the book, since the end of the book.

Speaker 2: 51:48

And you work with anybody with any kind of trauma, correct? Or is it just mainly around sexual assault?

Speaker 3: 51:54

You know, not mainly around sexual assault, mainly around done to you. So if you feel guilty because you did something wrong, my methods and ideas probably wouldn't work for you, because the whole point is it wasn't your fault and you stop blaming yourself. You didn't do it because you wanted to have sex, you did it because you wanted to survive.

Speaker 2: 52:17

Right, right Definitely. And it is completely two different things, rebecca. What you got? Any last words for people watching that you think turned off the podcast but they didn't talk to them.

Speaker 4: 52:32

Yeah, no, thank you for staying with us, even though Micah is crazy, but I'm sure Debbie is grateful that you stayed with us as well. Thank you, debbie, for sharing your story with us, and I think that anybody who reads your book is reading it because they need to, and I am very sorry they've had to experience anything that they've had to that has prompted them to read your book. But, like Micah said, find your safe space to find your love space. That's what you said, right.

Speaker 2: 53:14

It's close enough, it is close enough.

Speaker 2: 53:17

But I also wanted to say can I just add on to you real quick I know you just finished talking about how people cut you off, but I thought it was important to say like don't feel like you need to have experience with Debbie experience to read the book, Because read the book number one, you never know what you're going to get out of it. Number two there are methods of healing, literally in that book, because you see it in front of you and it may work for you. But I also feel like it gives you a knowledge to maybe see something in someone else that you can pass the book on to Absolutely. So just get the book. Okay, we're going to list all of the links before and I'm going to pass it back to Rebecca to close it out, because I cut you off, that's okay.

Speaker 4: 53:57

Well, thank you again for watching and sticking with us. I know it may have been challenging here or there, but again, thank you.

Speaker 2: 54:05

I made two jokes. I made two jokes. Okay, too too many, it's tough subjects it can take your people.

Speaker 4: 54:12

Yeah, but again, thank you so much for Debbie. We will have all of your contact information running across the screen and where they can buy your book and so forth. And yeah, thank you for watching everyone. Thank you for watching.

Speaker 2: 54:32

Thanks, guys. We'll see you next week. Thank you so much, debbie, for being on and for showing us what it looks like to love yourself after paying. We really appreciate you and we'll see you next week, guys. Until then, peace, love and blessings.