The one with Tamar Avishai

This week, David goes on "vacation," Gavin is the asshole (again), the Pope continues to bless gay marriages, we rank the top 3 road trip albums, and this week, we are joined by podcasting royalty Tamar Avishai who talks to us about her podcast, "The Lonely Palette," wether she fosters art for her kids, and what it's like to have a newborn for the third time.

Questions? Comments? Rants? Raves? Send them to GaytriarchsPodcast@gmail.com, or you can DM us anywhere @GaytriarchsPodcast

Transcript

Gavin: 0:00

Yeah, ex art historian. Ex art that I that's what I w We're all about the X's here. Okay. All right, shall we?

David: 0:08

Our next podcast. Wow. See, listen, he's already screwing up. This is this is what I deal with daily.

SPEAKER_03: 0:16

This is Gatriarchs. I'm Tamar Vish.

Gavin: 0:32

This is so hard. It is so, so, so hard. It is so hard. So hard.

David: 0:37

Um, Gabin, you're not talking about my dick, I know. We're talking about parenting, and we're just gonna jump right into it because Gabin and I were having our little conversation before we started recording pre-recording huddle. I was just debriefing on the terrible bedtime that we just had where I literally slammed the door on a screaming three-year-old and came downstairs and jumped on a Zoom call to record this episode for you, lovely listener. So I hope you're very happy. But I was Gavin was like, How are you? And I was like, Oh God.

Gavin: 1:10

It happens. This is one of the times that I'm not saying to you, just you wait. It gets worse because it will get better. I remember when my kids were that age. I mean, when they were like three, four, two, three, four, five, because they're 19 months apart. And I would call friends and just commiserate. We would, I mean, I remember times sitting on the kitchen floor. I don't even know why I was there. It wasn't like I was a puddle, but I remember so vividly talking to my friend Callie. Um, heads up, Cali, or rather, shout out Callie. I don't you definitely don't listen to this, and um saying, like, this is so much harder than anybody prepares you for. And it is so emotionally draining, and you feel like a monster because you have lost your patience. And it's just, even if your patience is just walking out of the doors or walking out of the room sometimes, you feel like a monster, you feel terrible, everybody feels terrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it is the hardest job on the entire goddamn planet.

David: 2:08

Yeah, I was saying that to Gavin before we started recording, which was like she was being difficult. She demanded some ice in her bed water, which I was like, fuck off. This is not the Ritz Carleton. And it's not even the Holiday Inn. Let's be honest. It's not even the Holiday Inn Express. It's not even that like hooker motel off the interstate that charges by the hour. But I I just decided to say no. I was like, no. And then she started screaming, and I said, No, you have to hear no sometimes. And then she'd like like like like she was being possessed by a demon, shaking, kicking, whatever. And I just said, nine, and I closed the door, and um, that that was it. And then I was saying to Gabian high-fived your husband to say this is now your problem. Your your problem. But also, I was just like consumed with guilt that I didn't try just do the ice thing for my my daughter.

Gavin: 2:58

Because now that you're sitting down here recording, you're like, what is the big fucking deal? I should have just gotten her ice, but at the same time, it is a big deal. And she does need to know that there are limits and that you have your limits. And bedtime is not the time to ask for more ice. And I I it's this is so universal, and I want the whole world out there and listener to know that David is doing a great job.

David: 3:19

Thank you. You're very sweet to say that. And it is also just a window for the for you listener out there, if you are dealing with any sort of this, and maybe it's from your teenager, maybe it's from your three-year-old, maybe it's from your infant or whatever. Start a podcast and complain about it. Exactly. Even your the the heroes of your life, the the hosts of Gatriarch, we also have problems. Celebrities have problems too, is basically what I'm saying.

Gavin: 3:46

We have this we have this podcast to be able to complain about our kids, but often sometimes I don't think we complain enough because it is just oh man, those years that you are going through right now are just soul sucking. And coupled with boring, and coupled with utter frustration and entitlement. And I just want them to get rich and buy me a boat. When does that what age is that? Soon. Probably next week. Maybe next week. Just you wait, David. Just you wait. You will have a boat from your children anytime soon so that you can go on it to the outer banks of North Carolina or something like that, and just like be that guy.

David: 4:22

What a delicious transition, Gabe. And I saw you do it and I I accept it. So, North Carolina, why you bring that up? That's so funny. So, we just went on a family trip to North Carolina this weekend, and I was kind of terrified because the flight's short, but you know, uh as we had with bedtime, it can go wrong. We're staying in an Airbnb, we're going to the beach, there can be all that kind of stuff. Um, I gotta say, other than like one bad moment with the daughter, it was delightful. Family.

Gavin: 4:53

Now I forget remind us, was this just pure pleasure, or were you meeting family down there? Or you're like, I'm from Florida, therefore I'm gonna go to a fancy place for vacation, which means North Carolina.

David: 5:04

Yeah, no, it was um my dad is uh turning 90. Whoa! And he has met both of my children, yeah. And he's listener, he listens to this regularly. Yeah, right. Um, but he um, you know, he's met my kids before, but he's he says all the time, he's like, I really want to see them. And you know, listen, that's the gory truth is we don't know how much longer we're gonna have them. And so I was like, let's go down there, let's see him. My sisters live there, and then we also invited my in-laws to come up. It was like one big where we had like a dinner every night with a different family member. It was actually lovely. Great. But there was an outdoor shower at our Airbnb, which is amazing because when you come off the beach, yeah, you gotta get all the sand off. Yeah. Well, that is where this argument began. Because my daughter, we had been at the beach literally all day. And my daughter had sand inside every part of her body. And we had to wash it off. And my daughter, if unless it's ice cold, thinks everything is too hot. So I had this the garden hose was outside temperature. It was warm, but it wasn't hot. And she was like, no, and she screamed body burger, and I was like, I will get this sand out of your vagina if it kills me. And there's just this screaming argument happening, and I'm sure people can hear it. Um, and so other than that moment, it was actually a really lovely trip. Do you think the neighbors were like, This is what happens when you give the gays kids honestly, they're right. This is this is what happens. They try, they try to clean the sand out of their daughter's vaginas, and it all falls apart.

Gavin: 6:30

Uh, you know, while you were in North Carolina, actually, I last week, um continuing my kids' film festival, we um were watching super quality stuff. My daughter loves horror movies. She's watched all the screams, she's completely obsessed. I've given up the thought that I am a terrible parent by letting her watch all the screams. Although, come on, she's 13. Like we do that when you're 13, right? So we watched I Know What You Did Last Summer, which I did not watch in the 90s. Uh some good, I mean, it's trash, but it's acceptable trash, right? Yeah. But there's all these scenes looking back on it, and I shan't dwell on this, that absolutely look like the California coast, but it takes place in North Carolina. And the whole time I was preoccupied with the fact that there is no way that there are oceanside cliffs in North Carolina. Are there oceanside cliffs in anywhere in North Carolina?

David: 7:19

There are none. The eastern seaboard is very flat.

Gavin: 7:21

Obvi it was filmed in California. Get over this. You're you're I'm I'm focusing on the wrong thing. But what was what I did also focused on was the right thing, which which is when they were saying a couple of times, some of the couples being like, I don't know, let's go hook up. In we're going to Dawson's Creek. And I'm like, wait a minute, is there cross-referencing?

unknown: 7:41

No.

David: 7:41

I'm like, wait a minute. Does somebody step on your oxygen cord?

Gavin: 7:46

Is there cross cross-references between Dawson's Creek and I know what you did last summer? And it was it cross-pollination? I mean, I don't know, is it? I mean, was it randomly? Corporate branding or something? No, they were literally like we're going to Dawson's Creek. And I thought, that's random. But it's an Easter egg. It's an Easter egg. Um, but you know how I have been an asshole of late to my kids.

David: 8:09

You're gonna have to be more specific because you're often an asshole to your kids.

Gavin: 8:13

I mean, times that you walk away so guiltily thinking, was that really the battle that used to that needed to be fought? The other day, um, so uh we dropped my daughter off at sleepaway camp yesterday. And the consequently, the house is quiet. I would say my son clearly already misses her and is like, this is awesome. And um, but I wanted to make her preferred meal on Saturday night. Uh, I was asking for her help and doing some of it so that she would wouldn't just sit like a princess on the couch scrolling TikTok and waiting for me to finish up her Instagram found Raising Canes fried chicken recipe, right? Which by the way, I nailed it. Great. And um, I was asking her to uh find a spice in the spice cabinet. And I it just required moving a few things out of the way to find it, right? While she was like, I can't find it, I can't find it. She's screaming at me, I can't find it. This is so disorganized. It's all my fault because it's a spice cabinet, right? Like, I don't know. It shocker, shocker. Ours is not organized in a perfectly well manicured way so that you don't have to move through shit. You always have to move through shit, past the garlic salt, past the whatever, to be able to find the uh paprika or something. Well, she's screaming at me she can't find the paprika. I'm like, okay, I will put down what I'm doing and go find the paprika. And it was indeed just behind the garlic salt, like I said it was gonna be, right? And I'm like, but do you see, sweetie, all you had to do was move it. Yes, I get it. No, no, no, no. I just need you to acknowledge that all you needed to do was look at, I get it. No, no. I really need you to just tell me that you need stop, stop. And she's screaming stop at me, and I was just poking that there. You're like, I'm picking this fight. I don't know why, but I'm picking this fight. This this is the dumbass fight I'm choosing because why? I'm the asshole who needed to be right. Admittedly, afterwards, my partner was like, Do you need help?

David: 10:08

And you're like, have you listened to Gatriarch? I need a lot of help. I've been speaking into a mic to one person for 116 episodes. Anyway, I was the asshole. So you're the asshole. But you know what? That's the point of that story.

Gavin: 10:24

The whole point of that is that I needed to be right, and guess what? I was never right. And of course, that's not a battle I should fight. But you didn't. But sometimes we're parents and we just are the assholes. So there you go. Yes. Anyway.

David: 10:36

Rectify this somehow. Give us a big thing. I'm gonna rectify this. Okay. No.

Gavin: 10:39

Um, quick dad hack. I was thinking back to those interminable days uh with really young kids, and I wanted to, I something I wish that I had done more often was instead of just having a house or rather a room or maybe a house full of toys all over the place just piled in corners. One thing that I discovered far too late was hiding all of the toys and just taking out one at a time. Now, I think that we've already addressed this maybe 78 episodes ago, and I do remember addressing it, but hey, we're at episode 116. We might need some reminders from time to time. And we have new listener. I think it might have new listener. Yeah. So, new listener, down the line, don't try to display all of the toys. No. Have them hidden and take out one at a time, and it'll be like Christmas every goddamn day in your house, okay?

David: 11:23

It's reverse math, I've discovered, where you're like, oh, if I just add more toys to the because we have like a what we call the study, which is like a room where all the toys go and it's like where play happens.

Gavin: 11:30

And definitely not intellectual study or intellectual. It's not that kind of study.

David: 11:36

It's like plastic Barbies and marbles and all kinds of shit. But I'm like, oh, we just put more toys in there, they're gonna want to spend more time. And it's the exact opposite. When it's overloaded with toys, they're just they just don't want they want to be in the kitchen on top of you while you're doing the dishes. But if you have one toy in there, they will be yeah, and then we've talked about swapping out the toys.

Gavin: 11:54

Yeah, Cheesecake Factory, like that menu is way too overwhelming. You just need one thing at a time. Give me four specials.

David: 11:59

Everybody will be delighted.

Gavin: 12:00

Yeah, absolutely.

David: 12:01

Give me four specials.

Gavin: 12:03

Gay news of the week. Guess what, David? What? The world is a really dark place, and everything sucks right now. Everything sucks right now. I did find one little glimmering light. God bless that American Pope. He has decided that the Catholic Church will continue to bless queer marriages. And to that I say, thank fucking Christ, that somebody has their heads screwed on to say, we're love is love, is love is love. And so the Pope, luckily, is going to continue to bless um queer marriages. How grace is that?

David: 12:40

Next, just say out loud, we'll stop fucking kids now.

Gavin: 12:43

Oh, can you just say that?

David: 12:45

Can can we do that? Can we please let me stop fucking kids now? I would like that. I'm putting that out into the universe.

Gavin: 12:53

So many reforms that are necessary from you know, Enoch's passed down to the first one.

David: 13:00

Let's let's put gay marriage at a quick number two. Yeah. And let's make a number one stop fucking kids.

Gavin: 13:05

All right. Um, yeah. Speaking of not at all a transition whatsoever, I do want to highlight uh doof of the week. Um, hey, Nate Burkis. That hair, that hair, that that everything. I think Nate Burkus is our um doof of the week. How about that? You have any opinions of the thing.

David: 13:22

Uh yeah, well, I I've noticed, excuse me. I've noticed in 116 episodes of using a podcast with you, hair is something that comes up a lot for you, which is very interesting. I I love a nice head of hair. Um, but yes, no, Nate Burkis is very hot and he's charming and sweet and docile and very like tw aged twink. Do you know what I mean? Like the like the young wine that just sits on the shelf for a while.

Gavin: 13:44

Well, speaking of aged twinks, let's talk about our top three list. Gatriarchs, top three list, three, two, one. This week is my week, and um, continuing summer themes. I want to know what are your summer road trip albums, not Spotify playlists, because that's too like mixy mixy, right? Not mixed, not mixed tapes. Um, I was thinking about this when I was a few weeks ago driving across South Dakota, right? And I'm I I did let my daughter control Spotify for a little while. And at the same time, I'm like, we are going to listen to an album from beginning to end because we are watching the rolling, you know, the countryside roll by. And that is when we don't need any bubblegum pop, we don't need anything new. You need to like take a journey, right? A journey. So, not speaking of journey, I would say uh number one.

David: 14:37

This intro is a journey of a thousand miles.

Gavin: 14:41

For me, number three, Carol King Tapestry. Okay, yes, yes, yes. Insert all the jokes about old people music, but albums that really take you on a journey. I think number three, Carol King Tapestry is um a great road trip and album, okay? Number two, Green Day American Idiot. Oh, that's a great one. Not the Broadway album, the original album, which I remember listening to that and thinking, whoa, I was not particularly a Green Day fan before this, but I got it because there was so much hype around it in you know, 1972. And I remember my partner immediately listening to it saying, This would be a really great Broadway show. And I'm like, dream on, nobody's gonna make this a well, there you go. So great album. Number two, Green Day, American Idiot. Number one, the Rain Man album from like 1970. The movie seven. Yes, trust me. Okay, it's uh now it's dated, and I listened to it in South Dakota a few weeks ago, and I'm like, no, no, this still slaps. It is excellent. There's some like super 80s music in it, but really it's like a bunch of it's a mixture of Edit James and I don't know, really old school classy pop and jazz from the 50s, 60s, whatever. It is just an excellent summer road trip album. What about you, David?

David: 16:02

So mine is is gonna be just like if you if you needed to describe me to a stranger, just list these three albums, and there you go. This is the the inner workings of David Um FM Vaughn. And this also uh I'm in a build. This builds an energy. We start kind of mellow and chill, and then we build high energy. So, and number three for me, nobody knows this band, nobody knows this album, but it's the uh the band's name is Nickel Creek, and the album is called This Side, and they are like a bluegrass instrumental band that I fell in love with in college. Lots of people know Nickel Creek, don't we?

Gavin: 16:36

Or do I just know Nickel Creek?

David: 16:38

Maybe you just do. But I I I fell in love with them in college, and I it I don't go to concerts, they are one of the few concerts I have paid money to go see. Um, they are incredible, and it's just such this magical, just very mellow bluegrass sound. Cool. Um, number two for me, moving up the country charts, we go to Faith Hill's Breathe album. Oh, that's a great album. That's a great album. Great album. It actually has my favorite road trip song ever, which is If my heart had wings. Yes. It's like if you play that with the windows down, I guarantee you get a speeding ticket because you're just going to just love your that's a great, great album. Yes. And number one, surprise to no one who knows me, in sync, no strings attached. That's a banger. It is a banger after banger after banger, and I will make no apologies for that one.

Gavin: 17:30

Nor should you.

David: 17:31

Nor should you. What about next week? Next week, okay, this is a little broader, but I think it'll be fun. What are your top three mornings?

Gavin: 17:40

Our next guest is actually David Podcasting Royalty, a queen of knowing the power and creativity of full podcasting and storytelling. She's an ex-art historian, uh, her words, not mine, and an audio producer focusing on the arts, which makes her, I mean, seriously far too qualified to wallow in the mud with us idiots. But she is setting out to democratize art and bring it to the masses and break through barriers of judgment. Um, so we are all about her breaking through the judgment, but bringing the judgment to Gatriarchs. Plus, she's funny as shit, and she has not one, not two, but three kids, and one's a newborn. Welcome, Tamar Avichai, to Gatriarchs. Welcome. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03: 18:28

Thank you for pronouncing my last name correctly. That's the only thing out of that whole glowing intro that I'm gonna focus on.

David: 18:34

What are some what are some ways people mispronounce your last name?

SPEAKER_03: 18:36

Oh my god. I I mean, even just well, there's there's the obvious stuff like like Avishi, Avishay, um, but even just like Avichi is wrong. And a lot of, you know, but whatever, you know, people are trying.

Gavin: 18:54

Yeah, well, names, names can be tough. I am definitely a case in that, so I try to pay attention to um names for sure. But anyway, we always want to start out. Tell us how your kids have driven you bananas today.

SPEAKER_03: 19:07

Just today. All right. Well, um, my almost six-year-old uh has been fighting a bit of a fever, and he's been um my god, he's been making a fucking meal out of it. Uh so you know, you can see in their eyes when they're actually sick and that kind of heavy lidded, like kind of dead-eyed stare. And uh like I was timing it with the um with the children's motron because if he has a fever at camp, then he's gonna be sent home for 24 hours.

David: 19:45

Yeah, it's like two days, really, once you get away. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 19:49

So I had to figure, okay, well, which day this week can I afford to have him home versus not, you know, at camp. And so when do I dose him? So that he doesn't actually get the fever while he's back at camp.

David: 20:03

So he doesn't trigger the alarm. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I I love that negotiation is so real. That negotiation of like, when do I allow my kid to be sick when it's convenient to me. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 20:14

So I woke up this morning. He comes into my room at six o'clock. He knows he's not supposed to. He knows that he's got the little light that says that he can leave his room at seven. And at six o'clock, I hear kind of a rustle, and I look up and it's like, he's like right there. It's like a horror film. And uh and he said, you know, mom, I'm still not feeling well. You gave me that medicine, it didn't work. And I was like, well, you know, my sweet summer child, it worked when it needed to, and then it wore off. Yeah. And uh, and he just was adamant that he wasn't gonna go to camp. And so I had to come up with all of these wonderful reasons why he would go to camp. A, so that was the carrot, but then the stick was like, you know, if you stay home again today, no TV, no snack, no, you know, nothing that like I'm gonna ignore you. Like, I gotta go to work. So it's not like you're gaining anything by staying home. And so he opted. Uh he would only go to camp if I promised I would go pick him up early.

unknown: 21:16

Okay.

Gavin: 21:16

That's a great thing. Well, then let's move this, let's move this interview along, huh?

SPEAKER_03: 21:20

Uh no.

SPEAKER_01: 21:21

On the contrary.

SPEAKER_03: 21:23

Oh, sorry. Sorry. I I got caught up, and you know, it turns out you completely forgot and you can't tell time anyway.

David: 21:31

So And you can tell him all you have to do is just show up and be like, oh my god, I'm hours early. He doesn't vote. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:39

Yeah. But that was that was annoying.

Gavin: 21:41

Summertime sickness is so unfair, though, in all the ways. In all the ways. Even if they are kind of faking it.

SPEAKER_03: 21:48

It's also 90 degrees out. And he I'm supposed to send a kid to a with a fever to camp. I mean, that's but I had work to do today. So, you know.

Gavin: 21:57

Well, now, what's amazing to me is you uh have a newborn. I mean, okay, not a newborn, four months old now, right? Yeah. So, but and so that's not the one who's driving you bananas, which is nice to know. But on a scale of one, on a scale of one to complete shit show, how are we feeling as a family of five in a minivan instead of just four in a sedan?

SPEAKER_03: 22:20

Okay, first of all, I have a Hyundai Palisade. We opted not to get the minivan. We've got, it's not like a regular minivan, it's like a cool minivan.

SPEAKER_01: 22:27

Yeah, yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_03: 22:29

Um second of all, uh the if I may be earnest, the baby is bliss. I love every second I get with her, and it's it will never be enough. You know, if I had forever with this little baby, it wouldn't be enough. Was it the same with your other two? The first one, you know, the baby that makes you a parent is terrifying. And you're learning as you go, you know, it's like this little baby is helping you like wield the machete like through the jungle because your old life is completely gone and you still remember what it was, and so you miss it and you don't know yet what this is gonna be. And you know, they call them like the at the angry potato stage, like before they start smiling, and so you don't really know what you're doing it all for, and it's terrifying. And if you're a lady, I should add, you're extremely hormonal, and that's tough. So, like, thank God you only have to do the first time once. The second baby was I felt way more competent, like I knew what I was doing, but I had a very uh frustrated toddler who was very demanding, and he's always been my my hardest one. I mean, he I'm he's like the love of my life. Like I'm so bonded to him, but he's tough. And so I kind of had to like also still think about the oldest with the new baby because the baby was easy. You know, the newborn was fine. Like, you know why they're crying, they don't get bored, you know, they just they they eat, sleep, and poop. And and uh my second is also very mild and easy. And so it was just like, okay, I was able like he knew the he understood the assignment. He came into the world understanding that he needed to take a step back while the older one kind of found his bearings. This third one is like she's also again pretty easy, and I thank everything for that. Um, but I just like I just I'm so keenly aware that she's gonna be a baby for another like 20 minutes. And so I'm I like I feel like like right into my veins, you know? Like I just I can't get enough that little baby hood.

David: 24:53

I I wonder if that's that is a baby three situation. I have we have uh friends at daycare who just had their third and it's a baby. And all I'm still I still feel like I'm triggered by the newborn phase. Maybe it was just harder for me because everyone has different uh thresholds of what's difficult or whatever. For me, the the infancy was the hardest, but I I I I I would agree that this by the time number two came around, I was I was less triggered by all the things, and I was just more just tired and all the normal things. So I did enjoy it a little bit more, but it was still felt like something to get through. I think if I had a third, which I will not be having, sorry, mom, I know you're listening. I will not be having a third, but if I think if I did have a third, I think I could fully or almost fully sit in that chair and really just ingest and breathe it all in where I could, you can't with number one. And is for me, it was hard, still hard for number two. My kids were the same way. Number two was to to this day, is the hardest thing I've ever done in my time. I'm like, why had it flipped scream? No, number two was the hard one. Number number one was the easy one.

SPEAKER_03: 25:54

So that for me, the the first was the hardest.

David: 25:56

Oh, okay, yeah.

Gavin: 25:56

I so you went through your boot camp first, right?

SPEAKER_03: 25:59

Yeah, yeah. It's it's like shocking to me when things are easy.

Gavin: 26:03

Was it always your plan to have three?

SPEAKER_03: 26:06

I mean, it was always kind of floating out there like a little butterfly. Like my my husband and I are both the youngest of three. And so we always kind of felt like if we stopped at two, you know, we kind of joke, it's like, well, the best was yet to come. But of course. It just we grew up in a household where three siblings just felt like like I think if you have two, if you grew up with like just one other sibling, it makes complete sense that it's like this or that. But we grew up in a three-legged stool house, and it felt like one leg of the stool would always be missing if we didn't have a third. And plus, I mean, you can't you can't account for this, but you know, I had had two boys and I'd hoped I'd have a girl, but you you can't plan these things.

David: 26:58

And so now that I did, it's like well, you can if you have an extra$40,000 and IVF and and I looked into it.

SPEAKER_03: 27:06

Yeah, I didn't actually, I I told myself, uh, you know, if I like like what would I be willing to spend that wouldn't be crazy if I were to actually look up? It wasn't IVF, but I was looking at sperm sorting. Yeah, because you you you put it in the yeah, yeah. And uh and it's not uh FDA approved in this country, but in Mexico it is. Um but I was looking at just kind of what it would, you know, and and my husband was like, that's creepy, you know, like we're not gonna do this.

David: 27:39

Like I mean, that was Gavin's full-time job in college, was space. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:45

Yeah. Well, good. Well, I should have, I should have called you.

Gavin: 27:48

Yeah, if only we had known then, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:51

Um but uh but you know, my my husband very, very quickly kind of put the kibosh. He was like, uh not that I think I ever would have gone through with it, but he was like, you know, like throwing, like, you know, the the throw of the dice has been so good to us, given how great our kids are. So it's like, why are we gonna start messing with with like stuff that really should be under God's purview?

Gavin: 28:15

At least they were it started to be really good with the second one, as you said. But did I mean these dynamics of coming from a two two families where you're both the third of three is really interesting. What are the like, do you have any what is your instinctual advice for surviving in that constant negotiation that is more nuanced?

SPEAKER_03: 28:37

You mean between my husband and me or having three kids?

Gavin: 28:39

Having three kids, a family of five instead of four.

SPEAKER_03: 28:43

I mean, I'm still really new at it.

Gavin: 28:46

Sure. Um in your experience too, growing up.

SPEAKER_03: 28:50

Oh, well, having three kids, like also, but it's like every you can't compare families. I mean, my my siblings are a lot older than me. They're they're seven and ten years older than me. So I was kind of an only child for a little while. Um, you know, I I got to know my brother much better as an adult than when when I was eight and he was 18 and out of the house. Um you know, I'm very, very close with my sister, and our age gap has completely disappeared now that we're adults. Um I definitely felt like by the time I kind of came around, the rest of the family were adults-ish, even though my sister was already seven. But it's like they were, they were out of the toddler phase. And so they always just kind of pulled me into it instead of kind of meeting me where I was at at that age. And, you know, that had its own like like cool things. I I consider myself a millennial with like Gen X rising because, you know, even though like I'm I'm just on the edge, like I'm a gray millennial, um, you know, my my tastes and what I grew up with are so Gen X because of my siblings. Yeah. Um, you know, I had this like second set of like cool parents. Um, in terms of though, three kids who are only at most uh three years apart, um, so you know, three under six right now. Um, I had friends who were like, yeah, the third just slots right in. Like you know what you're doing, and and you know, it's like it's like no problem. Like you break the seal, you could have a million kids now. And and it's like, no, they are fucking liars. Like they're saying that about they say that about every kid.

David: 30:35

They say about number two, number three, number four. Now it's easier on roller coasters. Now it's great for the no, no, it's never easy, it's always exactly that many times harder.

SPEAKER_03: 30:45

No, yeah, and and I felt like I went from having two kids to 12. Like everywhere I looked, there was another one of my children, you know, poking their head out of the bathroom. It's like, it's just one more kid than you can have in your mind at any given time. Um and so that felt like, wow, we have infinity, like our house is like, it's like swarming with kids. Um but now that the baby has kind of come into her own rhythms and and I know her better, and she's a great sleeper, thank God. Um, you know, it's like now we only have like eight kids instead of 12 kids. Like it's it's going to, you know, like eventually it'll just be three and they'll each have their own, you know, full autonomous personalities that I deal with as, you know, it's like individually, they're great. It's just when everyone is together, our lives are tight as a drum, you know, like you've just got to like always think about like, okay, is she sleeping while they're getting while they're having dinner? And like, you know, if I make dinner, this is it's like this relentless, you know, five steps ahead planning and timing, timing, timing, timing.

David: 32:11

Luckily, when they're a little older, all three of them will think you're cringe in their own special ways. You know what I mean? They're gonna be like, oh.

SPEAKER_03: 32:17

I'm gonna be such a I'm a cool mom. I'm gonna be a cool dad.

David: 32:20

We all think we're going to be. Gavin thought he was gonna be a cool dad. Gavin, uh, what does your daughter think about you?

Gavin: 32:25

Oh my god. I saw a meme the other day. I saw the a meme the other day that said it basically it was just me to my 13-year-old. Hey, do you guys wanna know is the response. Just no to absolutely everything before I can even get the options out. Um, this happened to me last night as I was suggesting a summertime movie fet um film festival was Forest Gump. I couldn't even get the title out. I was Ixnade. I won. By the way, it was super popular and everybody loved it. But interesting. You won't everything about us is cringe. But um, but being speaking of being super cool, you came to us through the podcasting world. We are a big fan of podcasts. I think you are probably a very big fan of podcasts. Your podcast is called The Lonely Palette. Will you tell us a little bit about The Lonely Palette?

SPEAKER_03: 33:13

Sure. Um, I'm not used to being asked about my work when my mom hat is on, so I appreciate that. Um, so the Lonely Palette is an art history podcast. I started it about nine years ago, and uh the goal of the show is to make art history um accessible and and just kind of pull it out of the dusty archives and off the pedestals you can't touch and and feel like the really human uh you know messiness that that crafted these artists and and the cultural context that they they exist in are just as accessible to you. I mean, they're they're very relatable, accessible emotions, and people were living through very relatable, accessible times that might have been extreme, but like we're always living through a kind of extreme time. Um, you know, especially right now.

Gavin: 34:13

And so Especially right now.

SPEAKER_03: 34:15

Yeah, so so there's like a lot that that you know, kind of the world has made you feel like art is behind a velvet rope and in a in a space with big white walls and you're not supposed to talk.

SPEAKER_01: 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 34:30

And that's not at all like that, that maybe is what art historians have done and what museum curators have done. Although I don't wanna, I don't wanna put them down. I mean, I think that you know it but it's like that's an academic discipline. And these artists were not academics. Um, and so that should already be a sign that this is stuff that is meant to be experienced and you can relate to it and you can bring your own, you know, sense of of emotion and awe and and sadness and joy to these artworks. And so I try to get that across in in nice digestible 30-minute episodes.

David: 35:09

Yeah. I mean, do you have a favorite piece of art? I know it's like saying you have a favorite kid, so there's an obvious answer, I'm sure. Because I have a favorite kid for sure. But what's your favorite piece of art?

SPEAKER_03: 35:17

I don't know yet who my favorite kid is. Oh, okay. I think I don't think I'm gonna know until they're an adult. Um uh my favorite piece of art. Uh no, I don't. Um, I feel like I am really kind of slutty and I fall in love with every place that you are in the right place.

SPEAKER_01: 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:39

Like every time I devote a whole episode to something, it kind of becomes my new favorite for a while.

David: 35:44

Yeah. Right on. Yeah. Well, I I I prefer all my art to have some sort of nudity. It can be breasts, it can be dicks, it could be butts. I just want to make sure there's some sort of juicy, voluptuous genitalia or body part that I can stare at. Because why not?

SPEAKER_03: 35:56

So is it like, but but are you talking about like stuff that's really like Egon Sheila, like like raw and and you know, he's like castrates himself. Like you get some some good like balls in that.

David: 36:14

Yeah, I don't know if I want castrated balls. I did go to the mus the the phallus museum in Iceland, and they just have like a dick in a jar. And I was like, this is not exactly what I was hoping for for the dick museum. I was hoping for like lovely dicks.

SPEAKER_03: 36:27

No were you expecting a dick museum?

David: 36:29

I don't know. I just thought I I don't know, but I paid the entry fee. I was like, I'm I'm willing to take this adventure.

Gavin: 36:35

You were expecting pornographic just fabulosity art.

David: 36:38

I don't know, maybe they have yeah just scientific. Yeah, maybe, maybe I don't know. I part partially was like, was there like is there like a dark room where I just like grab and I have to guess what they are? Like, I don't know, like it could have been anything. I was willing to take the right. No, I guess I mean something about like old art, like bodies painted from a long time ago. Like something fascinates me about not only what bodies looked like back then, but also what people wanted people to think bodies looked like, like what an artist impression, like I don't know, there's something about that, and just like I'm I'm obsessed with bodies and my own body, and like I always think I'm bad and I think I'm scared, you know, all that stuff. And I I I see the world a lot through that lens. And so looking in the past of like what bodies were considered sexy and not, and and all that kind of stuff fascinates me. And also, I'm a pervert. And so I want to see boobs and peanuts.

Gavin: 37:27

Want to see some more, yeah, yeah, some more goods out there. Well, uh Tamar, though, you um you started the podcast though in a unique way as well. Could you share that the origin story?

SPEAKER_03: 37:40

Uh oh. Which part of it are you guiding?

David: 37:43

The one where you murdered that guy. Tell us. Yeah, seriously.

SPEAKER_03: 37:46

The one where I cut off his dick and decided to make a podcast. It was a different time in podcast in 2016.

Gavin: 37:55

Like, you could get away with Eon. Yeah. You could get away with anything and get hopefully paid handsomely for it. But no, I'm curious about where you would just um interview man on the street and say, hey, what do you think of this thing that you're looking at right now?

SPEAKER_03: 38:08

Um yeah. Well, so I worked at the Museum of Fine Arts Boston. I was a contract employee. I I was there once a month giving talks. So I wasn't there that much, but um I asked my boss there because I was bouncing around the idea of starting a podcast and and the kinds of talks that I gave at these um at the museum was very podcasty, actually. Because uh, first of all, uh when you just give a lecture, people trust that it's going somewhere interesting. Um and so I found that in order to actually like hook people, because you know, like a lot of people who who become museum docents, you know, they're kind of like ladies of a certain age who who this is kind of their second career. Um, and so it means that they get this like very, very thick binder and they have to memorize a lot of the salient points about this or that artwork. And a lot of them tend to just kind of rattle them off like bullet points. And there's no real narrative arc there. It's just like we're standing in front of this painting, notice this, notice that, notice that. Here's a little bit of a biography of the artist, moving on. And I very early on found, you know, I was coming from with an art history master's, I had been writing uh seminar papers, and it just like I wasn't just pointing out bullet points about a painting. I was like, wouldn't it be interesting if I kind of started with a thesis, you know, brought us all on this little like hero's journey and then ended with a payoff. And that kept people in the palm of my hand. So I started to really enjoy looking at a painting and being like, okay, what's my hook? What's my angle? Here. And turns out that's really good for podcasting too. Like people, you know, like it just, I, I, the at the time I was talking pretty extemporaneously, to be honest. But um, when I started kind of committing that to paper, I was like, okay, this is a real podcast script. So that's where my idea to do an art history podcast came from. Also, I wanted to break into public radio, and this was all I had in my back pocket because that was all I had known up until that point was art history, even though I was ready to totally give it up. Um, and when I was at the museum and I started bringing in my gear and I asked my boss, I was like, hey, can I interview people in the galleries? And she was like, I don't know, sure, whatever the fuck. Like, you know, go ahead. And so, which is not the way a lot of museums feel about it. Just ask the guards and the Met and MoMA who have come up to me and they're like, put that away right now. Um, but yeah, in Boston they were cool with it. So I uh I just started asking people who were standing in front of the painting to describe what they saw. And I had to kind of refine how I asked because people were always looking because because people are really scared to talk about art. They're really, really scared to talk about art. I had a badge, I had this like this like fancy looking gear, I looked like I was legit and who were they? They were just visitors. Like people immediately put themselves down because they feel like talking about art, like they've they have no business talking about art unless they have a PhD. And so uh they were already scared to say something. And so I would ask them, like, so so what I was gonna say, it's like they would look for ways to kind of find the gotcha in what I was asking, like, just describe what you see. Uh do you want me to say that? Like, I was like, uh, imagine you're talking to somebody who's blind because it's audio. And they're like, well, could they ever see? Or were they born blind? And they're like, all right. We're gonna move on.

SPEAKER_01: 42:04

We're gonna move on to somebody else.

SPEAKER_03: 42:07

Um, so I had to, so it turned into like, imagine you're on the phone with somebody and they ask you what you're looking at. But um I got the best stuff eventually, you know, where people were were surprisingly unfiltered when they were given permission to just say that, you know, that Monet looks like a sponge that's been like wrung out, or that Mondrian looks like a computer screen, or my favorite, and maybe this dates me, but this Ansel Adams looks like a hoodie cup, like when you peel off the top because it's like it's like brown and white, like very high contrast, is what she meant. Um, and so I just like that then fed into the rest of the podcast because I was starting it by saying these randos have uh a voice and a unique perspective, and they're looking at the same thing that anybody is looking at. And you're never gonna get a curator describing a painting this way because they're they're too in it. Like, don't you see? Yeah, like you can't get it from a curator. You have to get it from somebody who's just approaching it fresh with and not not concerned that they're saying it right, not in not concerned that they're interpreting it right. And it just like it ended up, it was total happenstance that I started the podcast that way. And and that seems to be what people really gravitated towards because it felt like it kind of validated, okay, I'm some, I'm some rando too, and I just want to learn about this painting. And and I can also see the hoodsie cup in it. And then I come in and it's like, yeah, it is high contrast. That's the whole fucking point. You know, like that's you're seeing what I see, you know, me, me with a graduate degree.

Gavin: 43:51

Validating those opinions, I think, is so great. And uh being able to hear those stories of just folks out there. Uh is there is there anything that took you aback? Or like, imagine you find David F. M. Vaughn at the museum, and if he's just gonna go completely x-rated. Was there anything more fondling dicks? Just fondling them all.

David: 44:11

I've been kicked out of more museums than you can imagine for that exact problem. Was anybody that obnoxious?

SPEAKER_03: 44:18

Oh, um no, they weren't obnoxious. Uh they were I definitely had my fair share of me thinking that they were judging me a lot more harshly than they actually were. Like one time I I'm sorry that there's no there are no dicks in this story, but it's still a good story.

David: 44:42

One can just fast forward a couple, a couple seconds. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 44:45

Um I was I was standing in, I was giving a talk on on Monet's Rouen Cathedral, the one that someone once said looked like a sponge. And uh I I finished talking, and there was this man at the front, and he was like this perfect, I was in Boston, obviously, and he had like the quintessential Boston professor look, because they're everywhere there, and you know, they walk among us and and like the the like light blue button-down shirt tucked into the khakis. Um, not just what you stat your cow with in Boston.

SPEAKER_01: 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 45:25

And and he had like a like a cross, close cropped gray hair and a nice beard. And I was thinking to myself, probably because like I hadn't prepared very well, and I was very nervous for some reasonable that talk. Relating. And we couldn't have notes. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, sometimes it's fun to challenge yourself by not preparing at all. And this time he was standing there and I thought, shit, he he probably teaches art history at one of the 72 colleges and universities in this state, this Commonwealth. And uh, and he is totally like hearing everything I'm saying, and he's about to poke holes in it. And and he stayed back after, and I just was like, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, like the professor, like he's gonna come and talk to me. Like, we just made eye, like we locked eyes a couple of times, but he didn't smile. And I thought, like, okay, I'm screwed. And so he came up to me afterwards and he was like, So all of these paintings, it's like, yeah, they're all the originals.

David: 46:29

And you're like, oh, sweetheart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:32

And I was like, Yeah, like so, so Monet painted that? Like, they're not they're not copies. And I was like, uh yeah, you're you're in an art museum. And he was like, huh. You know, like, well, well, how about that?

SPEAKER_01: 46:50

Yeah, how about that?

David: 46:51

Well, how like sir, you look way too hot and studied to be this dumb.

SPEAKER_03: 46:56

I was so charmed, and I just I couldn't believe that that I had been so scared. It's like, stop, like, yes, you're the like you're the expert. Like, it's okay.

David: 47:07

So are your kids artsy?

SPEAKER_03: 47:10

Um, I don't know yet. Okay. Uh the oldest is extremely musical. And that's awesome. Um, he is just like, he is rhythmic. He can sing, he can actually carry the melody if you sing harmony on top of him. Wow. Nice. That's hard to do.

David: 47:32

Yeah, better than David. Gavin has never done it, and he's been in nine Broadway shows.

SPEAKER_03: 47:38

Really?

David: 47:38

Six.

SPEAKER_03: 47:39

Oh, okay. That's five Broadway. Five. Okay, tell me about that later. Um but uh what was he singing the other day? Like he just he can listen to something once and sing it back in a way that's really pretty remarkable. Um, he can't hold a pen to save his life. So, you know, I haven't seen him, you know, I haven't gotten like the crayon, this is you, like in a crayon picture that kind of looks like me. Like, I keep waiting for that. Um, you know, the three-year-old has promise, and I haven't asked the four-month-old to draw anything yet. Well, that's yeah, other than spackling the diaper. Yeah. Yeah. Although she she makes her poop is a beautiful color.

David: 48:27

Spoken like a true insane woman who has drank her own Kool-Aid. Yes. My my daughter's poop is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_03: 48:35

My mom once said, and I I don't care what you say to this because I completely understand it. She was like, oh, that that breast milk poop, like that early, early stuff. She's like, oh, I'd eat it with a spoon. Wow. And it's like, I I understand. Sorry. Sorry, it's the hormones.

David: 48:56

No, I get it. I I get it on a theoretical level, but it's also affecting me viscerally. So it's a it's a it's a combination. I'm just like, I get the sentiment, right? Nothing like every everything about this child. This I feel that honestly, I I gotta say, I feel that way about my children's morning breath, which is rancid. I call it dragon breath. They wake up in the morning, they're like, hi daddy, and I'm like, ugh, but I I kind of love it. I kind of love it.

SPEAKER_03: 49:20

Yeah. Well, apparently, like you're, you know, some babies actually share the same um like biome, like gut biome as their parents. Um, and so like my oldest looks just like me, and his poop has never ever bothered me. Like it smells like mine, you know, like it's just it's always been very sweet to me. Whereas my my second one, who actually looks just like my husband, is gross. Like he's gross. And my husband loves it. Like he he can't understand why I think the oldest is sweet and but until the middle came along and loves it.

Gavin: 50:00

And so and quite literally shits ice cream, apparently. Uh well, this is the perfect segue into what we usually end with, which is what how what is one of those moments?

David: 50:09

I know it's been 37 minutes, it goes so fast.

SPEAKER_03: 50:12

We can talk more. There's other stuff we can talk about.

David: 50:15

I don't want to get to camp. That's right. Well, hold on. Just like if as soon as we hang up here, I gotta go pick up my kid at camp and I don't want to.

Gavin: 50:22

What are the what's one of those moments that you think I will never forget the time when I mean my oldest is not a puker until about four months ago.

SPEAKER_03: 50:35

Oh. Um, and I have been trying to uh nighttime potty train him, which for the record is not how it works. They train themselves. This is Emily Auster talking, my my former boss and parenting expert. Um, you know, this is a question of like the the hormones in their brains waking them up when they have to pee as opposed to just kind of you know letting it go. So, and and you know, for boys, that can even be as late as seven and eight. So my my son's fine. Um but I was trying to like go in and wake him up and you know, like before I went to bed, so that, you know, kind of reminding him that, you know, there is a bathroom next to his room and you know, helping him pee in the middle of the night. And I opened the door and I was hit with a wave of vile scent. And he had just puked all over his bed. I mean, every every stuffed animal, of which there are approximately a million, um, and on the floor, like on the rug and everything. And it was just like he was just kind of sitting there, like what's up, mom? Casual. What's up? Yeah, like something just happened. And I was like, dude, like, like this is disgusting. Like, like, were you gonna tell me if I hadn't, you know, kind of come in for our normal, you know, midnight pee? Anyway, uh, he was fine. That was his one and done. I promptly got neurovirus and was down for the count for the next two days. And let me tell you, I was I was six months, seven months pregnant at the time. And if you want a little bit of too much information, um, when you're pregnant, you know, your body is flooded with with relaxin, you know, this hormone that relaxes all of your ligaments and relaxes everything. You can even get TMJ. I got TMJ this time around because like my jaw was too relaxed. Like, oh fuck, pregnancy. It's still worse. I'm so glad I'm not ever gonna be pregnant again. Um, and you know, in order for your pelvis to explain it needs to do. Yeah. So it's like that takes nine months to for your whole body to do that. But in the meantime, you're like walking around like gumby. And uh trying not to pee when you're puking, when no muscles hold in anything anymore.

David: 53:17

Everybody's free range to do what they want when they want, and you're like, no.

SPEAKER_03: 53:22

It was ridiculous. I went through like seven pairs of of like maternity leggings. Like every one I had, every time I puked, it was just I was sitting in a puddle. Yeah. One time I even pooped.

David: 53:38

Oh, that's nice. You're just like just throwing throw me in the bathtub and let me just get it all out all at once.

Gavin: 53:44

Well, Tamar, thank you so much for sharing all of those shit stories with us and all of the gravitas that you actually bring to everything, especially on the podcasting space. And well, thanks for demeaning yourself by being on our stupid little podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 53:59

My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for asking me. Have I am I a gay dad yet?

David: 54:04

Um, yes. You'll get your welcome card in the mail. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gavin: 54:11

So this might be me um overcoming my guilt or overcompensating or whatever. Um, but my reference to being the asshole and choosing my battles was uh also the night that I made amazing Raising Canes chicken fingers. And the pride that my daughter had in me for going the extra mile, she chose the meal. I was like, it's not too difficult, actually. There's not exactly secret ingredients here necessarily. But the pride, and she was like, Yadad, yeah, 10 out of 10, no notes. Hey. My daughter's saying 10 out of 10, no notes was a pretty great feeling. So rather than it just being me tooting my own horn, the point is being it asking your kids, like once in a while, what do you want to make, asking for some help, hopefully not choosing battles with it, and being able to make something side by side and then enjoying a meal next to them. That, I mean, that's better than like going to Paris. I mean, I want to go to Paris too. I'd rather go to Paris. Okay, no, no, no. It's not better than Paris. You know what something great is?

David: 55:15

Paris. Paris. How about you, David? There you go. Oh, God. Unfortunately, my something great is about my kid too. This is so annoying. This podcast has fallen apart. It was supposed to be funny. Um, so my son is um uh, you know, he we go to the playgrounds or whatever, and there's some things he can and can't do, and he has been really fascinated with the monkey bars lately. And we try, you know, we lift him up there and he just he can't. He can kind of hold on for a while, then he drops off and he's like kind of tries or whatever. This kid was determined to learn the monkey bars, and I watched this kid climb up, hold on, try again. Like he is, I just like to witness your kid really focused on a task and not give up, and it took a probably two or three months, and now he is a fucking monkey bar master. Yeah, yeah. And the pride in his face, and honestly, the pride with me, like I get these like delusional parents who are like, my kid is the best. I'm like, oh, I watched my kid who could have easily just been like, fuck these monkey bars, it's too hard. Yeah, he like worked with no one watching him, and so my son Emmett can now climb and cross the monkey bars, and that is a big deal. And that for me is something great. And that is our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments for David, you can email us at Gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.

Gavin: 56:33

Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast on the internet. David is at DavidFM FawnEverywhere, and Gavin is at Gavin Lodge, certainly not on the Monkey Bars. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we'll choose our battles better next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.