Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast
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Gaytriarchs: A Gay Dads Podcast
The one with pastor Steve Jungkeit
This week, 6 is the new 13, David wins therapy, we rank the top 3 jokes, and this week hell has frozen over because our guest is none other than a man of the cloth, Steve Jungkeit, who talks to us about being a leader of a politically passionate church, he spars with David about his anti-theism, how he reconciles the things his religion teaches him that he doesn't necessarily believe in, and how he feels about the gays stealing the rainbow from god himself.
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Us out of catriarchist. That's not like a sexual thing. Do you think? What eating a Belgian waffle?
Gavin:Yeah, I don't know. It just it you just said are you having sweet effect.
David:David, you are my mentor when it comes to older children. So I have a question for you. Um I'm here for it. Are does teenager attitude start at six? I think joking aside, I think for us it was three, actually. Okay, because my child turned six last month. Uh-huh. And on a fucking dime, he went from like cutesy, like fun, was played games to like eye roll, like eye rolls. On like, but like on stuff that I do day to day that makes him laugh. He's like humiliated. Today we were walking to school and I was holding his hand, and I started like humming the K-pop demon hunter song because he loves it and we love it. And he goes, he yanked my hand and goes, stop it. And he's like looking around at all the other kids. I was like, bitch, first of all, I'm the coolest motherfucker on this property. Anyone here, yes. I was in one Broadway show one time. But also, there's just like last night, he was like screaming, he's like, I don't even like you. Like, I it was like, wait, this happens at 14, no, not at six.
Gavin:No, it's tweenhood, man. Tweenhood. I forget, do you allow him on social media? Is he seeing how other people live their lives yet?
David:No, he has a he has an Instagram handle, but it's like a private account that we run and we just post pictures of him, but he doesn't go on social media. He gets YouTube videos of other kids behaving badly. He does. He gets 30 minutes of iPad time if he wants a night, and he will usually watch some sort of terrible kids running around doing like bad YouTube content.
Gavin:Well, that's I don't know if that's the gateway drug, but I feel like it's just so much about watching other kids, and these kids who are then in influencers, because that's what he's watching, is bad YouTube content, but he is watching other kids, emulating other kids. And and also very profoundly, I would say, is seeing like, oh, I want to live like those people, and then he's ungrateful. See, this is why I talk about gratitude all the time. I mean, it's so insidious, the sense of like, you're embarrassing me because you're not acting like the parents that I see in a YouTube video, for instance, or I want to live like them. And all of those people live fabulous lives that they put on YouTube. So I don't know, it's a it's a great gateway drug, slippery slope, et cetera, et cetera. And yeah, he's you're gonna embarrass him forever.
David:Uh I hate, I what I mostly hate about all of this is that all the bullshit that I hear older parents say that were like, God, stop it. Like, would you stop saying that or I'll figure it out? Is happening. Yeah. And what it is, is the hard part of the younger ones has just been the baton was just passed to now, yeah. No, he doesn't do that anymore, doesn't run into the street. But he does roll his eyes at you in Target. And you're like, wait, you're six. Yeah, you're a baby still.
Gavin:You're not one, I'm hurt because you shouldn't be thinking that I'm not cool anymore. And two, don't act like that. Don't be dick. Where did you yeah, no, totally? So I have I have a sense of entitlement, yeah. The sense of entitlement and the the eye rolls and the I'm better than you, and you're so dumb. Yeah, uh, yeah, it doesn't matter.
David:How about this, Gaben? If I'm so dumb, how come I can piss into a toilet every time? And he pisses in the vicinity of the toilet. I have to stand over him sometimes and say, look at your penis, point it at the hole in the ground. That is how we pee in this world. And he's like, okay, okay. Like he acts like I'm being a dick. He's like, okay, okay, fine. I'm like, you're literally pissing directly on the toilet paper roll.
Gavin:What are you like, yeah, what are you doing? This is so relatable. But you know what? I think that our remedy for that is, and not that it's effective, uh, but it is not being hypocritical in the sense of um trying to put our, I don't know, actions where our beliefs are. But this is where you start to say, oh, well, if you're gonna do that, then your chore is cleaning up around the toilet. And yes, you have to reach around to that trap, that thing where the yellow crust of piss, yeah. The lake of piss goes. Yes, you need to get out on your hands and knees and wipe that away, buddy. And in theory, it's kind of like it goes also with kids who poop their pants, which, hey, no judgment. I think they do it for a very long time and it's no biggie, but you know, it and they shouldn't be ashamed, but it is something you know you're gonna kind of like grow out of. And so if it gets bad enough, I mean, I had to have my kids clean their own um underwear. I mean, not do the laundry, but like be like, no, you're gonna be the one to take this and kind of like scrape it into the toilet and wash it out in the sink.
David:And I'm just gonna, I know that's too high level for me. I'm just gonna piss on their pillow. I'm just gonna, every time he pisses on the toilet paper, I'm gonna piss on his bed pillow and make him sleep in it. And shit on their shoes, yeah, um, and they can figure it out. Because I'm really mentally there. But speaking of being mentally there, please um my therapist broke up with me yesterday. Dang. So Do you need a do you need a moment? No, no, it's actually way less insidious than what I just said. He is, he got this really great fancy new job, and he has to get rid of all of his adult clients, and he's only keeping his his family or kid clients. But it's very funny because he went to this long winter.
Gavin:He's literally leaving you for younger, younger beings.
David:Correct, but but I would the but what the rain is the reason I bring it up is he told me he was like, oh, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, well, maybe I'll find another therapist. He's like, honestly, David, and I'm not allowed to say this, I don't think you need therapy. You have a podcast instead. I won. I won therapy. You won therapy. I agree with you. Graduated from therapy. Yeah. I got my sticker chart filled. He said, My therapist said, I don't need therapy. I am the most mentally stable person on the planet, is what that means.
Gavin:Do you but are you still left with a little part of you feeling empty because he didn't tell you that you were his favorite?
David:It was implicit in him saying that, that I am his favorite. And that the real reason he's breaking up with me is because he's fallen in love with me. And it is, it is, uh he can't have that sort of relationship with his client. So he's doing this because the love for me is taking over his entire life.
Gavin:Hey, um, dear listener um out there, which I am sure finally now I realize is David's therapist because he was just going above and beyond. I would love for you to come on the show. Now that you're now that you've broken up, you're not, you know, breaking any HIPAA laws. So please come on and talk shit about David to me. And it'll just be you and me, buddy, out there.
David:So you guys, you guys could do like a private episode where I don't even know, and you release it in the middle of the night, and I just all of a sudden see on my feet like, what fucking episode is this? You're like, yeah, I got your therapist drunk and high, and I made him talk shit about you. And he showed me his abs.
Gavin:All right. So um, do we have a dad hack of the week? No. Do we have a dof of the week? Meh, use your imagination. But what we do have this week, a top three. Disappointment. Oh. Gate three arcs, top three list. Three, two, one.
David:Um, is this your week? Yeah, you should week. Yeah.
Gavin:I wanted to hear your top three jokes. Now I realize that this could go many, many, many different directions, many different levels of offense, and frankly, many, many different levels of um uh length of time, right? So I'm going to give you top three, three top three jokes that I felt comfortable saying here on the air. And I'm gonna try to blaze through as fast as I can because only one of them is a like one-liner, um, you know, one-liner. Um, number three, what do you call a fake dad? What? A faux pas. Okay. Number two, inappropriate. Trigger warning, inappropriate. A priest, a minister, and a rabbi are all on a um uh on a life raft with three of their kids, uh, just with them. They, I don't know, if they fell out of a plane or off a boat or something like that. They're all in uh dire straits and barely gonna be able to survive, right? And um the rabbi says, Oh, but we we're gonna have to make a sacrifice here, but I mean, it obviously it can't be the children. We we have to save the children. We we're gonna have to sacrifice ourselves. And the minister says, Ah, screw the kids. And the priest says, Do you think we have time? And finally, a woman was living with her uh father. Um, they were um, you know, up there in years and they were just trying to get by. It was a very hard time in life. And um, you know, you do what you can do to survive. And um, so finally the the woman decides, well, I'm going to go out and start prostituting. I'm gonna I'm gonna sleep around. It's listen, it's it's it's a new era. Who cares? I'm actually getting some pleasure out of it too. And in the meantime, we'll be able to meet all of our um our our um financial expenses. So she goes out, um, she comes back. She goes out, she comes back, she comes out, she goes out, she comes back. She's not really reporting back to dad, but finally dad says, daughter, uh, how are you feeling about this? She says, you know, I'm actually kind of feeling empowered by it. It's it's it's fine. It's it's fine. Um he says, Well, are you enjoying yourself? And she said, Well, uh, you know, sometimes I am. I mean, some of the men are happy, and sometimes we don't even really do anything but just kind of talk about our feelings. It's kind of sad, they just like cry on my shoulder and everything. And but um, and he says, But they're still paying you, right? And she said, Oh, of course. I mean, that's why I'm doing this. This is you know, world's oldest profession. I am getting paid. And he says, Well, about how much did you make? And she said, Oh, about um most recently about$43 and um 10 cents. He goes, Who paid you 10 cents? And she said, All of them. You're welcome. You already knew it, fine.
David:But well, I already knew it, but also uh as you were telling telling me the the first one, I was like, We've done this top three before. But I think we have, but last week was a repeat, this week is a repeat. We're doing all of this, guys. This is really fucking hard to do this podcast, so you guys fucking deal with it. All right, let's hear three jokes, David. All right, number three for me, Gavin. What do you call a black psychologist who makes$200,000 a year? Doctor, you racist. Um number two, um, a man is at the bar and he is really, really fucking drunk and he just pukes all over the front of his shirt. And he goes, Oh no, my wife is gonna kill me. I'm not I'm not supposed to be drinking, I don't know what to do. So the guy next to him says, Here he slides him ten dollars. He says, Listen, bring this to your wife and say, Hey, some guy at the bar threw up on my shirt and he gave me these$10 to do the dry cleaning. And he's like, Oh, great idea. So he goes home and he walks into his wife, and his wife sees him and she goes, What what what is that shirt? What is going on? And he goes, Oh, a guy threw up on my shirt at the bar and he gave me$10 and he pulls out a$20 bill. She goes, Well, that's that's$20. And he said, Oh, well, he should edit my pants too. And number one, uh, a man goes to his doctor for his yearly physical, and the doctor says to him, You have to stop masturbating. And the guy says, Why? And the doctor says, Because I'm trying to examine you. And that is my top three jokes that I can say on this podcast. Uh, next questionable at that. Yes. Yes. What is next week? Next week. Now it is not officially October yet. I know. And it's definitely not Christmas. Do I need to remind you of that? Correct. But we are approaching spooky season. So I want to start thinking about spooky stuff. So Gavin, next week I want you to rank what are your top three witches?
unknown:Okay.
David:Nice. All right.
Gavin:Today's guest is too smart for us. I mean, he's too witty for us, he's too well dressed for us, and basically just too good for us. How good is he? He's a minister, not just any minister. He's a Yale-trained, worldly minded, often controversial, fervently just, endlessly activisty, Bob Dylan obsessed, endlessly curious, tremendously foul mouthed, and indefatigably, yes, go ahead and look it up, David, devoted to queer rights. Also, he's my minister. So welcome to the show, Reverend Steve Youngkite.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, thank you for having me. What a what an what an introduction, man. How do I live up to that?
Gavin:Well, you sent your bio over it. It was way too academic for us. Like David wouldn't have understood any of the words on it.
David:So No, I'm literally Googling every single word he just wrote. I have no idea what he just said.
Gavin:So, Steve, first and foremost, as always, how have your kids driven you bananas just today?
SPEAKER_02:Well, just today. Um, here's what I got. We live literally a block away from our schools. A block away. And every single fucking day, I have to drive them to school. Drive them.
Gavin:I saw you in the drop-off line the other day, and I was like, I wonder if he does that every day. Wait, wait, why?
SPEAKER_01:Because they want to sleep in just two minutes longer or they want to like linger over breakfast two minutes longer. But my sorry ass has to get out of bed every day to get them to school.
SPEAKER_02:And I sit in that, it's it's like this long traffic line, Gavin. You know, you know it well.
Gavin:It's the longest drive-thru line of your imagination, and you get no french fries. And you get no french fries, exactly.
David:There's no frosty at the end of this line.
SPEAKER_02:No, it is the occasion for like existential despair for me. I sit in this line and I'm like, I will be doing this if you know, if all goes well every day for the next 12 years. This is awful. Anyway, this is this is in a way, I love my kids, uh, but this is one of the ways they drive me crazy every day. Every day. Oh, and then can I add one more thing? Um because we live close to the school, they're like, oh, dad, I forgot this paper. Can you bring it down to me? Because you don't do anything, you're a minister. I'm just hanging around waiting for their call. Uh yeah, you're merely our servant. So thank you. Totally.
Gavin:You're just staring at the wall, contemplating life, and waiting for frantic text for them to bring that paper that you forgot. Yeah, yeah, that's what I do. That's what I do with my day. Yeah. So you have uh you have three kids.
SPEAKER_02:What are their general interests? General interests? So three kids. Um, our oldest is in college, Sabina. She is um, she is super interested in music, in dance, in theater. Um, so you know. No, tell her no. Tell her to stop at all.
David:Tell her, tell her to not follow her dreams and just ignore them. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:I want I want her to have a conversation with the two of you, uh, an open, frank conversation. You know, I'm a supportive parent, but you know, yeah, that's what she loves. That's what she does. She's doing a vocal performance. Um, our daughter Elsa is in high school. She loves dance. Dance is her jam. Um, and I I spend a lot of every single evening driving her around to dance classes, and our our youngest Augie is in eighth grade. Soccer is his thing.
David:So wait, so Elsa, we the the question we're all thinking, is it because of the frozen movies?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, um, no, she's older. She's five years older than the frozen movies.
David:Ah, so the frozen movies you were the inspiration for the movie. Yeah, yeah, that's what we think. That's yeah, that's what he thinks.
Gavin:David, I I I cannot help but point out to this, and this is one of those times where I'm like, I really know our guest quite well. Um, Elsa played Elsa um in Frozen Frozen Jr. or Disney Frozen Jr. or whatever it's called a few years ago. And of course, she was actually amazing. But you're not.
David:That's gotta be really confusing for the playbill. You're like, Elsa is Elsa. What's her name?
Gavin:Superman There's a typo here. There's a typo here. Um so just before you came on, Steve, I was actually saying to David, do I do you feel like I should make a disclaimer about Steve coming on because we're talking about, frankly, religion. But then why do I need to make a disclaimer over something like that? Do I need to apologize? Wait, I shouldn't be apologizing for wait, what? And I went on my own spiral, which was very David was like, Gavin, this is I should have just hit record because this is what you do.
David:By the way, Steve, it isn't, it is not just you. It is before we do anything. He goes, he spirals out of control and then we hit record.
SPEAKER_01:And I believe this, I know Gavin, until yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gavin:I definitely spiraled, but it's funny where I'm kind of like, do I need to make a disclaimer? No, that would be bullshit. Why would I have to make a disclaimer about whatever? And then David started to say, but Gavin, do you believe in God? And I'm like, okay, maybe we shouldn't have this conversation three minutes before we start recording. Yeah. But I will say, I have I have been convincing David for months now, if not years, to have you come on. And not that it was a hard sell, um, which isn't to say that we'll basically take anybody on the show, but but David, it was like, why would we why I was just gonna say you guys are scraping the bottom of the barrel right now, man.
David:You are yeah. He's just inviting everyone in the car line, basically, to be a guest on the show.
SPEAKER_02:Gavin goes to church. Yeah, yeah.
Gavin:Trust me, it was a shock to me too. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no. And but I was able to say to him, but listen, I think there is so much to be said about community and knowing that there is something out there or trying to connect with something out there that's just bigger than yourself, that rather than your own selfish focus. And more than may I say biblical studies, that's why we are there and why I force my kids there. So that's my disclaimer, knowing that we will come back to more of what you have to say. But I am curious, what is the best and the worst thing about being a pastor?
David:I know the worst thing is having Gabe in in your building. Oh, it's awful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, man. No, it's it's it's one of the best things, actually. Um well, first of all, let me say I appreciate your disclaimer because, in a way, it's a disclaimer I have to make all the time. Um, which leads right into one of the worst things about being a minister, which is you get placed in this really tiny um claustrophobic box. Um, there are assumptions made about what you believe, what kind of lifestyle you lead, how you raise your family. Well, and and and um by and large, some of it, I don't, I don't know, maybe some of it's true, but um, I like to think that a lot of it's totally not true. Um so so I I guess I hate the the narrow, constricted box that I feel like I get placed in as a um as a minister. Um I I guess I feel like my world, my, my life, my brain is bigger than than often what I'm allowed to be in people's imaginations. Um one of the best things is um the fact that I I get look, I love going to the library, I love being in books, I like studying, I like writing, I get to be with people, uh, and I like hanging out with people. Um and I get to hang out with all kinds of people in some really um intimate moments sometimes. And to me, um that's a beautiful, beautiful gift. Um just before I came on today, a a friend. Also, a former congregant called and um she had just received the ashes of her husband, um, uh, or was about to receive the ashes of her husband in the mail and was kind of undone by it unexpectedly. I mean, this happened two years ago. Um and I was the person that she called, or one of the people that she called, and my God, what a, what a I don't know, what a gift that is. That's a privilege. So that's one of the things I love. It's one of the things I love.
David:Gavin, I think a better way to say what you kind of bumbled through earlier about your intro is you had said that was more interesting. You're like, I don't, I don't, my disclaimer is because I don't want to be one of those, I don't want people to think, all of our listeners to think, oh no, I'm one of those. I go to church, so I'm one of those. I think that's more interesting for you to expand on. What does that mean? One of those. We're interviewing Gavin now. Steve, you're now the co-host with me, and we're gonna interview Gavin.
SPEAKER_02:But this is exactly the question that's on the table, I think, for me, for Gavin, for all of them. I mean, yeah.
Gavin:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like I I didn't have a bad religious bring upbringing. I mean, I just kind of just went to church because that's what we did. I was Methodist. There wasn't any fire in brimstone. There wasn't, frankly, judgment. I believe we had a closeted lesbian, although maybe she wasn't closeted, I don't know, who was our pastor back in the 80s. And I mean, people kind of whisper. I remember people kind of whispering about it, but it wasn't in a get that lesbian out of here. It was kind of just like, is she or isn't she? But nobody really cared. So, you know, I guess it was really a liberal upbringing. So I don't have any knee-jerk reaction to religion, except that I grew up in Colorado in the 90s when um there was focus on the family in Colorado Springs. We had and um amendment two, which was an anti-gay thing that all of the megachurches from Colorado Springs um rallied around. And I feel like I grew up at that time of megachurches growing and exploding in the 90s. And I'm just not a mega, uh, I'm not a mega church kind of person because I because it just seems so literal and judgmental and superficial and all those. So I want people to know that I'm not one of those people who go who uh just drinks the Kool-Aid because the Kool-Aid is served instead of wine.
David:But Gavin, that's the core of Gatriarchs is superficiality, judge being judgmental, and being hypocrites. That is literally the core. That was the core use of the podcast. I did. Listen, I'm a journalist, Gavin. I'm not just a podcast host.
Gavin:I'm a journalist. Steve, I do have two house cleaning house cleaning questions before getting into a teen to more profundity with you, even though I was the one who just pontificated, and you probably have some thoughts about that. But real quick, what is the difference between the terms pastor, minister, or reverend?
David:Priest. There's a lot of them, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean I mean, they all basically designate the same thing, and it's kind of a matter of personal, personal taste and regionalisms and traditions. Um I recoil in most of them. I prefer to just be Steve. Um in our in our in our particular church, we use the the language of minister, but um, I don't know. I I yeah, I I would I would I would totally recoil if somebody started calling calling me pastor steve or something like that. It would just go like, oh shit.
David:I feel like a pastor makes me think of like wood walls and like like like the 1970s. It feels like a very 1970s word. Yeah, wood paneling. Yeah, wood paneling and like, you know, like orange carpets.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, and like Gavin, I come out of evangelicalism and I have uh some some wounds and some also frustrations and irritations about it. Um so yeah, getting called Pastor Steve or something like that. Got it. Just just weird. It just raises all kinds of stuff for me that I'm like, no, God.
Gavin:I always wondered if there was a difference there. But then one more house cleaning house cleaning. Yeah. Do you have a favorite Bible verse or passage or story? Oh, geez. See, you make me sound like an evangelical asking. Oh, I know. Well, I wanted to get it out of the way, and then we can move on to the last evangelical stuff.
SPEAKER_02:No, I yeah, yeah. Initially, I was like, what? I mean, I'm a liberal Protestant. We don't read the Bible. I mean, come on. Nice. Um, um, but that's not true. Um, that's actually not true at all. Here would here would be what I would say. I like the one that has been on my mind is the story of the burning bush in Exodus. It's this um it's this story where where Moses encounters the divine in a in a living organism, in a plant. Uh, and somehow this plant is flaming. And it's there's there's something unconditional about how it's speaking to him. I think that to me that speaks really deeply about um our relationship to the natural world and the places where I don't know, sometimes we're surprised by um or overwhelmed by um by a sense of something other coming at us. I really connect with the flaming part. Yeah, totally.
David:We were both, we were both just we were both like drooling, edging to be able to do that. I was danging, we were gooning to that. Um, I was dangling that for you. Um, so any of our listener knows that I am uh I'm an atheist. I grew up in a, I don't know, passively Christian home where like you went to church sometimes, but just mostly Easter and Christmas. And I don't think anybody really believed in it, but everyone kind of followed to the kind of social, like, this is what you do, and this is what uh good means. And when Gavin did float this, I was a little like because I there's a part, there's a part of me that's a little anti-theist. Um, but I would say I'm mostly atheist where like I don't think about religion ever unless it starts to affect my life. Um, but I I did want you on because I do, and Gavin talked you up. He loves you, he thinks you're one of the greatest things ever. And I don't normally trust Gavin. It's mutual right on this one. Um, but I was thinking about like, what am I curious about about when it comes to like religious people who are on the religious side of things? And one of the things I was thinking about was how you as a person, as Steve, deal with any sort of like conflicts you have personally with what professionally you are to because we're we're not talking about your individual faith. We're talking about you as a religious person leading a religious charge. And I was curious about like, let's say you your religion says one thing, you feel something different. Is what do you do with that? And my my follow-up to that question, I'm gonna stop monologuing in a second, is when you when you feel like somebody else religiously is not doing what they should, is there like a back channel of like you talking with other pastors or priests and trying to like like Supreme Court goes to the back room to kind of argue things out. Do you guys have that? Like that's not in front of us? Um, well, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you know, I mean, I have I'm I'm blessed to work with like really great colleagues um who are also really close friends. And so um it it it saves us in a way. I mean, we we I don't know, we're we can we can joke about things and diffuse things in a way that um I find really, really healthy. But but you know, David, to answer your question, um I experienced a lot of that conflict, that inner um conflict early in my life as a young evangelical, and found I had to I had to go somewhere else. Um and the truth is I'm in a place right now where I get I pretty much get to be myself. And I don't experience a conflict between my religious self and my personal self or what I actually believe in, what I have to say in the pulpit. I get to actually step into the pulpit and say what I think um and to voice some of my deeper questions and to um invite people to come along that journey with me without feeling a sense of turmoil about um, you know, as a religious professional, I have to say this or I have to do this. I'm in a, I'm in a I'm in a situation right now where where um where I get to be I get to be me. And that that's that's an unbelievable gift. It's an unbelievable gift. I mean, I I have occasionally um uh you know been been given offers to go to other places or at least to interview in other places, and I just go, I get to be myself here, and I don't trust that that's that I just don't trust that that's true in a whole lot of other settings.
David:But I guess what I mean is broadly, like you you are talking about your congregation or your your particular church and kind of you can be yourself, but I mean like when Christianity or or Methodism or whatever is publicly something that you are not. I I my my curiosity is always in the you either have to say that, oh, that's not me, I'm something different, and then you're not Christian or you're a different, like that that's where I get like really curious because I'm it has to come up, right? Because there are people who believe in the word for word letter of the Bible. There are people who are like, I don't know, maybe God's not real, but I'm still religious. Like there's kind of everywhere in between. And so you as a kind of a leader, how do you deal with that when Christianity does something that you're like, oh, that's that's not me. I'm not talking about like crusades. I'm talking about like gay marriage and you know, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. No, that's okay, that's a great question, and it's really helpful to frame it that way too. Um, no, what I would say is um um, yeah, it does drive me crazy sometimes. There are moments when I read the New York Times and they're right now busy profiling all of the reptilian, right-wing, often very Christian people that I find repellent. Um, when when the assumption is that is Christianity, that's uh who gets to speak for what this really complex religion is, it drives me up a fucking wall. Um and I guess what I want to come back to again and again and again is to say this isn't any one thing. And I'm a part of a uh branch of this tradition that is totally different, totally other. Uh, and I want to publicly um get that out in the in the in the public in the public square. Um, there is no single thing called Christianity. There are only Christianities. Um, it's not a monolithic thing. It's all I mean, uh so anyway, I guess I just want to say they don't get to define it. Um, it's so much bigger and so much um broader. Um, and and what I do, while not um as loud or as noisy, and what others like me do, um uh is also a part of a story, is also a part of the a part of this broad fabric. So, you know, yeah, um I I get I do get very, very frustrated at what passes for Christianity in the public in the public space. And yeah, my colleagues and I do sit in staff meetings and do bitch at each other uh uh often.
Gavin:Um I would I would also add to that that at the beginning of um every service, um the it's there's almost like a disclaimer of saying, welcome, everybody is welcome here, and we welcome questions and we welcome your honesty. Yeah, yeah. And this is the this congregational church that we're part of um welcomes intellectual debate. And you're not going to be kicked out for not believing anything. You can come in dressed however you want, loving whoever you want, saying whatever you want, and dispelling the name of God and it to be like, well, let's sit around and talk about it. Yeah, yeah. Steve, so getting to the meat of the matter of why you're here in 2025, what is the point of church? Especially for, in this frame, say, a queer family.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Listen, it's uh, I think it's a it's a very, very important and valid question. And it's um, you know, it's one that I think I have to talk myself into sometimes as I, you know, I don't know, step into the pulpit uh once a week. Um, and you know, people have shown up, and sometimes you go, why are you here? Um, and why are we doing this? And what what what do we what do we do with this? Well, so here's here's what I would say. Um we live in a terribly lonely society, a terribly isolated society where people are um um uh kind of kind of isolated in their little um private worlds. And for me, church has been one of the places where we're invited out of that. Um, it's been one of the places in my life where um where I've been invited into into relationships with people across a whole wide spectrum of age groups and interest groups and backgrounds, I mean, some of them very different than my own. Um and and and that there's this kind of container that can hold us all and that gives us a sense of community and a sense of being with one another, especially in very, very um difficult times, is for me um one of the major reasons I do it. But to the to the more pointed part of your question, why queer families? Um I would say that, you know, despite the way churches have um often been terrible places for queer folk, they've also been places that have been shelters, they've been places that have been that have provided safety, and they have been places that um have allowed people to to be their fullest, their fullest selves. I was just reading this great interview from um do you do you all watch the show Somebody Somewhere on HBO? I freaking love it. I think it's great. It's got this this uh anyway. So there's this actor on it, Jeff Hiller, um, who is um playing a guy who's very gay, but he's very churchy as well. Um, and it's a little bit based loosely on the actor Jeff Hiller's life. And and he grew up in Texas and he said, like, you know, honestly, what what can I say? I mean, uh, church has been one of my safe spaces throughout my life. Um I guess I feel like if if if we can use what we have well, we can create this safe, um loving, um, gentle, um, justice-oriented space for our young people that um uh that I think can can do a lot of a lot of good for us.
David:Um I I just want to make sure we be honest about the if you were saying yes, church has done some damage, but also it's been a safe space for other people. I would agree, but like nowhere near as much as the damage it's caused to the queer people and queer families and act, and not I'm not just talking about historically, I'm talking about today. The the leading it religion is the leading charge for making sure families are not together, cannot be married, cannot leave the country, being deported. That is all foundationally religion. So, yes, I would agree there have been great safe spaces. There are churches like yours, probably, and other places where we are like, no, no, no, we are a safe space for queer people. And that has helped, I think, a lot of, but nowhere near is it comparable to the amount of damage it has done to queer people's lives or families. And um, and so I think there's there's two parts to this, right? There's the do I believe in God and so ergo, do I go into a church? Like that is kind of aside, because like who's gonna convince anybody either way? But then there's the other part, which is like, yeah, I'd uh maybe I do believe in God, but I would never step foot in a church, a for the the the safety of my child, right? Uh Dan Tavage has a great quote, which is like, if clowns raped people as much as priests, it would be illegal to go to the circus, right? So like there's that part of it, but then there's just like the like the beliefs part of it. So I I I I'm I'm not I'm I'm pushing back on you because I want to make sure our listener knows that like we are not uh glorifying churches that are safe spaces and trying to erase all the kind of damage.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you for saying that and thank you for pushing that. Um and look, you'll find no argument from me.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Find no argument from me on that. I'll all every every last thing that you've said there is um something I agree with.
David:So but I want you to argue with me about something. So I would really like to like just get into it about something. I really I really we we haven't spent much time about making fun of Gaben, so maybe we'll jump into it.
SPEAKER_02:So we can do that. But well, let me let me let me add one more one more reason to this. Um, or layer, layer, layer to this. Um there have been moments that I I have wished to rid my own self of of church, of my own uh belief. There have been moments where I've gone like I'm not sure I want my kids um to grow up with this stuff. This is this is my uh baggage, but I'm not sure I want to bring my own children into that. Um and the the truth is there's something about these stories and the insistence upon transcendence, the insistence upon um an ethic that I haven't been able to let go of. And and I can only say um that that might be true for some listeners as well, for some others as well. I I mean, I don't know. Yeah, maybe maybe it's that that's all that's all I can say um beyond the fact that I agree with you that there's been so much damage. I just haven't been able to let it go. And maybe that's been true for others.
David:Um Yeah, I mean, listen, I if you're a listener of this show, if you are the listener of this show, there are maybe some listener who want to go to church or do go to church. So my practical question for you is for those of uh those queer families who maybe do want to go to church because they believe or because like gaven, they more want a community that they are community feeling or whatever, what would your be your advice be to like a queer family who is looking for a church that feels like a safe space?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um well, I would I would say look for an open and affirming congregation. I mean, many congregations um have gone through processes over the last 25 years that have really forced them to um dig into um the ways in which you know Christianity in the church has been awful uh and to do the work of creating a different kind of a different kind of um community and a different kind of narrative. So so it's it's sort of like a uh kind of a stamp of approval. Um make sure it's an open and affirming congregation.
David:Um and not just rainbows, by the way, because we did steal that from you. I'm gonna go ahead and apologize for this rainbow theft that we did. I know it was like God being like, sorry about the flood, here's a rainbow, right? Sorry about murdering everybody. But like we totally took that from you. So if you see We're not giving it back. And we're not giving it back. Honestly, we've we've kind of massacred it. We're adding all these other things. But um, yeah, no, don't just look for the rainbow because that, you know, that that could be Noah's rainbow.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_02:No, you make a you make an awesome point. But yeah, no, I mean it's uh it goes beyond the rainbow. And it, you know, um, I don't know, hang around long enough to to to go do they main it, you know. Um yeah.
Gavin:Kind of along the lines of what did you say to that? Oh, uh how to find a sorry I didn't give him.
David:I didn't know he was still in the show.
Gavin:Uh that's a good question. I mean, my overall feeling still is well, we were lucky to be happened to be in a community where you already existed, so I didn't have to go searching for very far, luckily. And I don't think it's easy to I think that um our uh community and congregation is unique, uh unfortunately. It's very It seems to me it's very New England for one thing. It is. Um, it's a congregationalist uh practice, so that's not necessarily a national thing, and it's rooted in, frankly, like we're talking pilgrims, right? Which isn't necessarily like that. I wouldn't have joined this church probably in 1624.
David:With your like buckle shoes and your little hat, and yeah, yeah, and still flaming though. Flaming, but like working it, like walking down the runway. And the heels and like murdering Native Americans as you're like sausing down the runway. Sacheting in my buckled heels. In your buckled heels. Until the murder. I was like, we could do a great drag show. Yes, with like little page boy haircuts. Oh, yeah, very cute.
Gavin:Steve has actually asked me about having a draunch at our church, and this is what I did.
David:A drag brunch at your church. Oh, that I you wouldn't you would make so many people mad in the best way. Um, and which is maybe not at your church, maybe not at your church, but just the general church community. Like, what the fuck is happening over there?
Gavin:This is exactly what Steve is looking for, and I am avoiding it entirely. Oh my god, I love it. Because I am who I am.
David:But we can't even have them read books to children. Let's, you know what I mean? Let's like really terrify them.
Gavin:In terms of though, Steve, I appreciate you bringing me into the conversation since David forgot I exist. But I really do it regardless, uh, it it is we've been lucky. I think that um gays have to be pioneers in some ways and be like, I am going to be here, and the priority is community and connection in a world of today. And that's my main thing. That's why I'm where I am. And so if somebody in Odessa, Texas is on that search with their queer family, it's gonna be a bigger challenge. But I don't know, maybe it kind of comes down to I wouldn't necessarily say people need to find church. What I would say is, in the words of um the deity um um Madonna, Rachel Maddow, in these times, you have to join something. Yeah, you have to joining something is what will make you feel whole and not like you're going being driven fucking insane by the insanity that is around us right now.
David:And I think because of the powerlessness that you feel on a national scale, yeah, somehow it it's quite like that it feels a little better to just like at least see like 20 people around you and you're like, okay, this I can see yeah, and it and and also just like these are people and I am people versus just like seeing these like broad, uh, these broad things. But also I remember in college when I was like, oh yeah, I'm I'm an atheist, like really kind of coming into it, be like, oh, that's oh yeah, that this this is why I always felt kind of benign just sitting in church. I'm like, I don't this is but I I remember being like, oh, but I love having a place to go and doing volunteer, like I like I was just picking and I was cherry-picking like a lot of religious people do, cherry picking a lot of the good things and putting it together and saying that that's my thing. And so I was like, does that exist? Is that a thing? And it it kind of does, but it hasn't really taken on, which is called like humanism or the humanist society. I don't know how much you know about this, but I think they were trying to do this like, okay, it's like church, but like there's no God. There's no like we're just a community who get together maybe once a week and we do good things and we we we foster you know inclusivity or whatever. Um, and that that is something that I like Gavin was saying that he loves about your church is that he he loves that part of it. And I I I agree, I would love something like that. But I I I don't think I would want my family in a religious version of that, but I would love, other than just like normal volunteering, I would love to have something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I no, I don't know. I think that's probably representative of a lot of people. Um yeah, I yeah, I I uh I'm glad to hear you would like that. I don't know.
Gavin:And demonstrating bringing the kids then into it, demonstrating that you dedicate yourself to something that's a little bigger than just your everyday consumerism. That's right. That's right. And and it doesn't that is for me, that is reverence and spirituality without bringing the Bible into anything. It's just like knowing that the world is bigger and more important than you are. And I am constantly wanting my kids to just realize, hey, you're awesome and you are my entire world, but you aren't the entire world to everybody else. And also get out of my house. But also get out of my house.
David:Like, also, I can't I can't listen to you talk right now. Can you leave this house? It's like I love you. I would throw myself in front of a bus for you, but if you say one more thing to me, I'm pushing you out the window.
Gavin:So uh back piggybacking um on uh David's uh bitchiness there. Uh and going back to Noah, Noah and the Rainbows. Uh, tell us, Steve, and this is this is a non sequitur, rather, that I didn't prep you for, but what are the other gayest part of the Bible besides just Noah and the Rainbow?
David:The sandals and like the dress, like the flowing.
Gavin:Sandals and dresses.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, why don't we start with 12 men?
David:Oh, I'm listening, Steve. I'm a listening.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. Why don't we start with 12 men leaving their world for a while and just traveling around the countryside together, camping with one another?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, let your mind wander. Let your mind wander.
David:Whenever I even see like men's group retreats like on the church bulletin board, I was always like, hmm. What are they? Is that a Gunnar retreat? What is that? Like, what is that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, start there. Or go, go, go to this place too. I mean, um one of the highest expressions of love in Christian theology is the the Trinity. It's a threesome.
SPEAKER_04:It's a threesome, you guys.
SPEAKER_01:It's a threesome.
David:It's I thought that was gonna be a trans metaphor, but you're talking about like group sex here.
SPEAKER_01:It is it is built into Christian theology. Interesting. It is there.
SPEAKER_02:Um what so so anyway, there there are these there are these um moments through throughout theology, a lot of moments, it turns out, a lot of moments throughout theology, but also in the Bible. That when you when you have eyes to see, you go, huh.
Gavin:I mean, yeah, yeah. Um I was I guess. I'm gonna make the disclaimer for all the people, even in my community, who have it out for Steve anyway, all the time, that he is just letting his mind wander here, okay? There's no reason to come at us him with pitchforks, you can come at us with pitchforks fantasizing about the the holy trinity of of uh threesomes.
David:Well, is that true, Steve? Is do you do you get a lot of like flack? Do you get a lot of criticism just in general because of your position or your particular way of doing things? Um He's being diplomatic, and I'll say yes. I yeah, yeah. And what do you do with that? Do you do do you ingest it? Does it does it eat eat at you? Are you really good at like kind of letting it go over you?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I wish I were better. No, I wish I were better at letting it go over me. No, I I I turn it over and over and over and over in my mind and try not to do anything stupid with it. And um just try to be cool with it, but I no, it it it um I don't have thick skin. I've gotten thicker skin, but I don't have thick skin. I get hurt. Um, it sucks. I I brace myself sometimes when there's a an envelope in my in my uh mailbox at the church, and sometimes it's not addressed or or um there's no return address. Man, I've gotten some stink bombs. Um and it's like walking around a corner and somebody knifing you. Um so yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it it it stings and it hurts. Um on the other hand, um the other hand, um, like I say, I get to be who I am and I have kept my job. Um and uh and and I feel like I feel like it's my responsibility to to actually be out there doing stuff, saying stuff that's actually gonna be um useful and progressive and and and all that in the world. Um and if people have trouble with that, you know, so be it.
Gavin:Yeah, so be it. Steve is unapologetically progressive and has no problem saying it. I was um talking to a friend uh a couple years ago, actually, uh who was complaining about her own church. Like, why do we go through these motions? Why am I doing this? I don't even frankly believe in what I'm doing, but I'm forcing my kids to do this. And I was like, have you thought about like coming over to my church? And she said, I mean, this person said to me, and I quote, oh my god, no, your pastor is in the newspaper way too much for me.
David:Like, I mean, that's a sign, that's a badge of honor, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it it it it is also it is also that. I mean, I I um, you know, yeah, I don't know. The controversy, um, it it it stings, but I'm also like, I don't know. One of my one of my mentors said, you know, when the feathers fly, you know you hit your mark. Yeah. So it's a totally and you're doing something all right and doing, I don't know.
David:But you're in such a you're in you're in a very emotional business, right? Like like obviously like church, but also like a political uh a political leader, right? They, I'm sure you can be the greatest politician, you can be the greatest pastor of all time, and do all the right things, and somebody's gonna be pissed because there's so much emotion tied to what you do that if you just do it to the left of or to the right of what they want, does that stir up feelings?
SPEAKER_02:And that's right, that's right. No, no, it's really, really true. Um, and like I say, I'm I'm blessed with the community that that I have, that we have. Um but you know, yeah, no, it it it comes at me, it comes at us sideways sometimes. So it's funny.
Gavin:Um deal with it. Steve's, I don't believe Steve is ever in the news for um uh religious talk, it's always about politics and good for him. Uh, but maybe this maybe catriarchs will be the one that changes it for him. So anyway.
David:Um local pastor talks about God threesomes on controversial podcasts with one listener. No, exactly.
Gavin:If only if we if you can bump us up to 10 listeners, it will have been worth uh your sacrificing your uh reputation.
SPEAKER_02:Are you kidding? No, this is like exactly where I'd want to be in the world where I do.
David:So if there's controversial, you're the first person who's ever said that. That's why I think Gavin doesn't even say that. Gavin even is like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Gavin:Get me out of here and do not attach my name to it. Um, all right. So I am curious, wrapping it up here and bringing it back to your kids. Um, what and I've sat there wondering, um, what do you hope for your kids down the line on their spiritual journeys? Yeah, man, that's a really good question.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for asking that. Um I have evolved over the years. Like I say, when I when our kids were very, very young, I still felt um I still felt more conflicted about my own relationship to Christianity, my own relationship to religion. And I I kind of I kind of had this like attitude of uh, you know what? I don't want to burden them with this. I don't want to, I don't want them to. I I would be pleased if they had no religion whatsoever, because this is kind of my stuff that I'm having to work through. Um so you know, if they don't go to church at all, fine by me. If they don't uh know these biblical stories, fine by me. Um, and over the years I have evolved um to the point that now I'm like, but I want you to know this stuff. I guess I want you to have some kind of spirituality, something deeper than just, as you said, Gavin, I'm a consumer. Um, or I'm trapped in my own self and my own success or pursuit of algorithm. I want them to have some kind of um language that they can access the depths of the human story and the depths of the of the of the world around us, the mystery of the world. And in a way, I'm indifferent to what that language is. Um it doesn't matter to me if it's the language I use, which is which happens to be Christianity. Um but but I want them to have some kind of language for accessing the depths. That's what I want. That's what I want. And I can give them the the rubric, if you will, by by bringing them into a church setting so that so that they know that the depths exist, that they're there, and that there is that there are languages for getting at those places in human existence. Um and again, I I I think I'm indifferent. I think I'm right when I say I'm indifferent to the particular language that they use to get at the depths. But I want them to have I want them to get there. That's that's that's what I want.
David:And if they choose Mormonism, they get their own Broadway musical. So that's kind of fun. Um all right, so wrapping it up, we have to ask Yes, yes. So we um we always ask this question as our last question, and I so thank you for being here. But um we have to ask you, what is that parenting moment when everything fell apart? When did you earn your parenting merit badge? Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:I wanna I'm gonna I wanna ask this question of you guys because we started a podcast.
Gavin:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we could tell these particular stories.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, here was the moment it totally hit the oh man, it was a shit show. It was when it was when just after our third child, Augie, had been born, we had zero money. Um we were driving a Honda CRV at that point with like a kind of a just one back seat. So our three kids lined up in the backseat. So we have a uh newborn infant, we have a two and a half year old, Elsa, um, and then we have a five-year-old, Sabina. And Elsa's sitting in the middle, and she begins to think, you know, it's really fun if I like reach up and I pull my sister's hair and she just starts screaming, right? And and um, so we're driving down I-91, coming back from Vermont, and it's kind of late at night, and it happens over and over and over and over again, and I feel like it's a rolling fucking hellbox. I was in my own personal hell. She would not stop torturing her sister, and the screaming would not stop, and I'm in the driver's seat just boiling, and so I have to pull the car over to the side of the road, cars whizzing down beside us, and I have to pull my two and a half-year-old daughter out of the car onto the side of the road where cars are whizzing by, and I'm like, stop this. You have to stop this. And she's like, she doesn't get it, she just thinks it's anyway. It was hell to me. And I don't know, maybe it doesn't sound like hell to anybody else. To me, it was total hell to the point where I sat uh the next day, just kind of vacantly, blankly in a chair, just staring into space, going, All right, I there are three things I can do about this. I can like end my life, uh, or I can I can uh I don't know, run away from this marriage uh and and uh and you know be a single guy, or I can go get therapy.
David:Um, I think I think every parent listening to this d knows exactly what you're talking about, but I'm gonna I want to make sure that the quote of this episode is hell is hell exists, and hell is the backseat of a Honda CRV. So let's just or anywhere in that CRV right now, yeah. Oh shit.
SPEAKER_02:Um But that was that was that was where that was where I was like, all right, look, I uh that blank stare you're talking about.
David:I think every parent listening to this knows that stare where you're just staring out the window and you're like, What uh uh what do I do? How do I get it?
Gavin:And the the homicidal feeling you feel when stuck in it, and you think nothing can be worse than this. It's a it's a form of torture. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Especially when your kids are young, when you're going like this is this is this extends indefinitely in front of my horizon. Like this is going to go on forever. It will never stop. This I will never there is no end to this. There is no end to this. It felt so awful. But you know, therapy's a great thing. What can I say?
David:And you made it, and the kids still exist. So that may do.
Gavin:Steve, thank you for thank you for demeaning yourself by being on our stupid little podcast and giving us oh so much more to figure out how to make the world a better place. Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, you guys, this is awesome. I love being in conversation with you, and uh, and I feel honored to have spent this time. And I hope I didn't say anything too stupid.
David:I hope you didn't say anything too controversial. I hope you didn't say anything too smart because people expect the lowest at this podcast. We want to make sure that we give them what they want. Thank you guys. Oh man, well, thank you guys.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate it.
David:So, my something great this week is what is a perfect marriage of two of my favorite things.
Gavin:Um, wait, wait. There's there's so many options for this. My two favorite things. Let's see. All right, go ahead. Wendy Shakespeare and porn. First of all, they're called frosties. Yeah, frosties. Frosties and porn, not necessarily in that order or together. What other things? Um, driving really fast and listening to Liber uh uh legally blonde and um Jen and Regret. Gen and uh uh let's see, wishing you could go back to college and do it all over again and pick a completely different track in your life so you would be living a life opposite of this right now. And um abs.
David:Yeah, no. Um I'm so glad you uh interrupted me. But it was comedy and hot shirtless men. Oh, okay. And so those two don't normally go together, but I have come across this person on my FYP, which I'm sure has come across a lot of people's, and his name is at rune dog underscore first of his names. Already fine. It's yeah, it's just it's a very long handle. But it's it's I it's all I I thought about describing this on the podcast, and I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna describe him. He is like a really hot, kind of shirtless, hairy, muscular guy, but he's does this kind of like cocky, arrogant, Gaston thing. But everything he he's like always hitting on whoever's holding the camera, and he's always doing, he's saying shit that is so fucking off the wall bananas, but with this confident, like, you're gonna want to fuck me thing. And it's so fucking funny and so hot. His body is so delicious, but he's really he's his stuff is so funny. And then he became huge, of course, of course, the past couple of months. He did a collab with RuPaul, he did RuPaul. Okay, he's done like, and but I can't tell if he's really gay or not. I'm gonna go ahead and say he's not gay because he he comes across as that like straight guy who likes to play gay. But find him, he's so funny at rune r-o-o-n, rune dog, d-a-w-g, underscore first of his name. He is so funny and so hot.
Gavin:I can't wait for him to be on the show and explain his handle because that seems funny. And show all of us his abs on this audio um platform. Okay, so I am also just going down the social media rabbit hole with us on something greats. And mine has nothing to do with hotness, but it is a dude who brings great, great joy. He is at ed.people. I am sure that I am one of six million people who has discovered him. I haven't discovered him, I've watched him for a long time. But he's just a guy who goes around apparently the world, undoubtedly having everything paid for, and he just asks people, what is your favorite dance move? And he does favorite dance moves with people from uh absolutely everywhere in the world, from Botswana to Birmingham. And um he and he's just this really sweet, unassuming white dude from Belgium, which when I found he was Belgian, found out he was Belgian, I'm kind of like, oh right. Remember Belgium exists sometimes. I yeah, yeah, forget that. I mean, aside from the whole colonialization and ruining much of Western civilization and outside of Western civilization for that matter.
David:It's only in my zeitgeist because in my Dutch language courses, they often make Belgium and Germany because they border the Netherlands as a joke. Like, oh, Belgium. No, it's just like, hey, that's my friend Sam from Belgium.
Gavin:And you know, how do you say that? I would imagine everybody looks down on them. The French do, by the way. The French make, you know, instead of telling uh what we refer to in the 80s as Polak jokes, they make Belgian jokes. Anyway, I digress. At ed.people is just a breath of sheer joy as he runs around making people smile and doing their favorite dance moves across the world. I highly recommend it in this world of a dumpster fire. We all need to dance more and laugh more. And that is our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can always email us at Gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFM Vaughn everywhere. And Gavin is at GavenLodge on Dumpster Fire. Please leave us a glowing five-star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. And we'll have a delicious Belgian waffle with you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.
