The one with our Listener

This week, Gavin and I shut our big fat mouths and finally let someone else talk: our listener! We are fortunate to have four of our listener join us to tell us a little about them, their place in the parenting world, and why in the hell would they keep listening to this garbage every week. 

We are taking a short break over the holidays, and will be back at you with the same garbage podcast starting on January 7th, 2026.

Questions? Comments? Rants? Raves? Send them to GaytriarchsPodcast@gmail.com, or you can DM us anywhere @GaytriarchsPodcast

Transcript

Gavin: 0:00

Quick question.

David: 0:01

Why is gay dad fashion either sad hoodie or pride once a year? Well, thankfully, Gaddy's exists because they understand that gay dads deserve clothes that say, I'm nurturing, I'm exhausted, and still hot.

Gavin: 0:13

Gaddies was started by a gay dad who looked around and said, Why do straight dads get all the bad graphic tees?

David: 0:19

They make hats, tees, hoodies to let the world know that you're a dad. But like a hot, gay one. David, you literally will not take off your yes gaddy hat. Yeah, but you're weirdly committed to your caught in a dad romance t-shirt, like emotionally and spiritually.

Gavin: 0:33

I own it. It's perfect for school pickup, play dates, or explaining to strangers why your kid has two dads and better outfits than they do.

David: 0:40

Gatriarch's listeners get 20% off with code GAY20. That's G-A-Y-20.

Gavin: 0:46

Dressed like the Gatriarch you are, or at least the one you used to be before bedtime was at eight.

David: 0:51

Go to heygaddies.com. That's H-E-Y-G-A-D-D-I-E-S.com.

Gavin: 0:58

Okay. Um talk about putting pressure on you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04

I know. Um to the program for a beach and a car call of gatejuck. And this is Gatriarchs. And this is Gatriarchs.

Gavin: 1:30

It is almost the end of the year. I I just saw a meme of uh Golden Girls episode where Dorothy opened the door on her old husband. I know this is really dating me. You're welcome, Stan. And it was labeled 2025. And she opened it, he said hi, and she slammed the door. And uh that was her view of 2025, and I completely agree. But you know what, David? I am listener must be so sick of hearing us, right? Like, hey, listener, let me make this clear. Thank you for coming and joining us. And uh, we get a lot of meaning out of this, and we hope that you are enjoying yourself, though. Like, why on earth? Why? Why? But people have got to be tired of listening to us, right? Listener.

David: 2:10

So um They are. They're very tired of us, but for whatever reason, people keep listening to us. And so I thought I would um confront, um, I would call your bluff listener, and I'm gonna have you on the show. And guess what? We have a listener on the show today. So today is an all-listener special. Gavin and I are not gonna yap our mouths at the beginning. We're not gonna do a top three list, we're not gonna do a something great. We're not even gonna make mistakes, not linguistic or grammatical. No cold opens. We're gonna go right into it because we want to dedicate this episode, our last episode of the year of last episode of 2025, to our one singular listener who has been the reason we kept doing this. And so we thought we would spend an entire episode honoring them and have a few of them on just to kind of get to know who the fuck is listening to this show. So we are going to take a little bit of a break after today. Uh, we will be back at you with the same tired bullshit on January 7th of 2026.

Gavin: 3:08

But in the meantime, uh in the meantime, please enjoy your holidays. Uh, please um have lots and lots of pleasure in your life leading us into a fan fucking tastic 2026, okay?

David: 3:22

Our next guest is Gatriarch's Royalty. And I don't say that lightly because not only is he, you know, smart and hot and funny and created big systemic change in the laws of Mexico, but more importantly, he is the legend who created his very own Gatriarch's merch for our fault, Neita. Sure did his now infamous listener t-shirt. But even with all of those accolades, his biggest achievement is coming in about six months, for he is on his own yellow brick road to becoming a new dad. Please welcome to the show the one, the only, the man, the myth, the listener, Daniel Barzowski. Hey guys. Daniel, thank you for coming and joining us again. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be part of this one. Our listener, I mean, you are our listener. If your shirt says anything, you are the listener. I know we joke about that all the time, but listen, you're the only one who's made a shirt that says listener on it.

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

I'm gonna claim it, you know. Um, if uh I start to realize that you do have more than one, but if there's only gonna be one, I'll claim it. We don't.

Gavin: 4:26

Yeah. And I uh I think about that shirt all the time and how we have left all opportunities on the table just with you, where you should be the one capitalizing upon it and making millions of dollars from those t-shirts, because we're clearly not the ones gonna get our shit together and make millions of dollars from co-branding with you. But at some point I hope we do.

David: 4:46

But Gavin, here's the thing if we ever got our shit together, if we ever planned better, if we ever had merch, if we ever did more stuff, I think people would fall out of love with us because they love how messy and terrible we are at this. Is that true, Daniel? Is that part of what you love like the show?

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

Absolutely. You know, guys, I I I'll talk a bit about what why I started listening, but I am obviously not a dad yet. Um, I started listening two years before we even got to this point, but it started because everywhere where I was listening to and trying to find information, everything seemed too pretty and too put together, and we were not there yet. And we didn't think that that could ever be possible. And all of a sudden you guys were there and saying, This dream that you guys have is not gonna be as perfect and shiny and wonderful. And it just resonated, right? And and it felt truth. So that's why we started listening and we have been listening for the past couple of years.

David: 5:41

Gatriarchs, dream killers. Um, I I jumped ahead of the first question. I'm so sorry. Even though you're in utero, how did your kid drive you nuts today?

SPEAKER_00: 5:51

Well, um, let's put it this way. Uh, a year ago, my Instagram feed used to be a lot of just like hot guys, maybe an ad of underwear, an ad of like a luxurious vacation, because of course we're double income no kids, we could afford that. Uh today, if you look at my Insta, it's all what's the difference between a stroller and a travel system? Uh it's uh how is your relationship gonna die be once you have a newborn? Um so yeah, hasn't even been born, but already messing with us.

David: 6:23

Oh my gosh, that is really funny. It is amazing how your your your all of that can change so dramatically. Like, but although my if you go to my like search bar in my Instagram, it's still dads dance. It's like dads dancing with their yeah, it's abs, but it's mostly like guys dancing in like gray sweatpants with no underwear on, and they're just like, hey, look at this funny dance I'm doing. And we're like, you know what the fuck you're doing. You know what you're doing, and I'm still watching it.

Gavin: 6:48

Um it sounds like your Instagram feed though is such such a self-fulfilling prophecy, and let's just blame the capitalism, right? Where they're saying you, your whole relationship and your life is gonna suck here. So here's all the ways that we're gonna sell shit to you so that your life doesn't suck. And in reality, I don't know, it's just a matter of coping with kids. That's just good luck. Listen to a podcast or start one.

SPEAKER_00: 7:09

Well, it's a little bit of that, and to be honest, it's also you it makes you realize how much of this is targeted to women. Every single product is mommy this, mommy that, and uh in a way that, well, first obviously doesn't resonate with us, but also just makes you realize how much of the burden ends up on women, just making the assumption, even in 2025, right? And so I think it's it's just been interesting uh to to look at it from this perspective now.

David: 7:35

I'm always shocked when I am around straight people, uh, period. Like I can't believe they exist. But also in for for that exact scenario where I'm like, are you still defaulting to like that the mom does everything? Like the dad will just it just is assumed. The dad just is like, I'm going for a run, and he goes outside, and I'm like, wait, wait, wait, did you not talk about who well then who's gonna take care of the kid? Well, it's always assumed the mommy. So you while as a gay dad, it's kind of frustrating sometimes to be like everything's a mommy and me class, but then you're like, Yeah, because straight straight dads are sometimes shitty and they default to like mom has to do everything. But wait, I I I I want to go back a little bit. Tell me how you what when you we met you at the fall meetup, you were like, hey, you know, just FYI were about to become brightener, very exciting. And now you are. So tell us a little bit about your particular process of becoming dads.

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

Yeah, so we started looking into it. Gosh, it must have been like 2022. Went to the Men Having Babies conference, and we just left that conference completely overwhelmed. Really? Uh, I know they they do a great job as a nonprofit, they give you a lot of information, but then they have the marketplace next to it, and everyone's trying to sell you something and like push cupcakes with little sperm on your face, and just like give you a problem.

David: 8:49

Normally, not a not a problem for me, but yes.

SPEAKER_00: 8:51

It's uh yeah, and you know, it's not not something you want to do at a conference precisely, but uh uh yeah. So I remember having this moment where we went to one of the stands because we were trying to like figure out how much does this cost in total, right? And everyone would give you a, well, it's this much, and that's the entire journey, but we don't cover the clinic. And so you go talk to the clinic, and the clinic would be like, Oh, it's this much, but we don't cover the cover the eggs or the so at the end of the day, we're just exhausted. We went to one of the stands and we said, Well, just give us give it to us straight. And one of the guys that was there had just gone through a journey um and was now part of a surrogacy agency, and he said, You're looking at around 200K in total. And I remember both of us just being in shock, and and and we said, Is that is that real? Is that the actual cost? And and do your do your clients really just have 200k in their bank to just pull out and pay for this. And this guy just very blank faced said, Yeah, uh, surrogacy's not for everybody, you know? And it just, you know, we left the conference, we put everything in the freezer for like two years, didn't do anything. Um, and then little by little said, well, because we started seeing the prices are just going up, up, up, up, up. Our savings account wasn't going up, up, up at the same rate. So we said, let's just get started. And we took the very first step, knowing that we didn't have the full money, uh, you know, all the funds. Uh, but I think if we hadn't taken that first step, we'd still be waiting for the day when we could afford this. So that's how we got started.

Gavin: 10:24

That's so classic that uh you you're waiting for the right time. And we just we say this many, many times, not the least of which our last interview, and there's never a good time. Just get started somehow, and uh you'll figure it out.

David: 10:34

But also, I I I've said this many times in the podcast. I had the exact same experience I've met having babies, where I was like so thankful for this place and I learned so much, but I walked out of there, so our heads were just down because I was like, I don't on what plan, and then of course I was I was sad that I was like, I can't afford surgacy the way I thought I could. And then I was like, and why do all gays have money? Where is all the gays getting the money? I don't, I feel like we we make good money, and then I look at all these gays and they're like, Oh, yeah, I have 200k to buy a kid. I'm like, what are you talking about? What do you do for work? So no, I I I had that exact same experience, but I would agree with Gavin that like there is and kind of what you did, there is this kind of leap and the net shall appear kind of mentality you kind of have to have. Um, because there's never a good time, there's never a financially appropriate time uh to do it. You just have to kind of do it.

SPEAKER_00: 11:21

Yeah, and uh we got very lucky because you know, we started, we took a first step, pretty much put all our savings into it, and then uh a couple of months later, I was able to land a job where at least one of the parts of the journey, which was the the IBF side of things, was covered by my uh current employer. So that gave us a huge boost to be able to cover that part. And then, you know, from the moment you do IBF to the moment you find a sur uh surrogate, you actually have like a year and a half. So that was a lot of also us just saving and finding other ways to afford this.

Gavin: 11:54

So I feel like this is just an appetizer of a longer conversation we want to have with you at some point, Daniel. But we wanted to um just get you in the pipeline as listener, but I am dying to ask you the next question, which is you sued the Mexican government in 2018. Why?

David: 12:14

I told you, Gavin, I told you this would be a catnip for Gavin when we did our pre-interview. I was like, Gavin is going to get it.

Gavin: 12:20

I've been vibrating since we started. I don't care about aside from the only thing I've heard you say is shoving cupcakes with sperm in our faces. Other than that, I've heard I've been thinking about that too, Gavin. I've been thinking about that a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 12:32

Well, uh, so my husband and I are both from Mexico, uh, born and raised there. And about nine years ago, we moved to New York City to pursue a grad school uh uh program, and we had you know gotten engaged, but we were students, so we couldn't afford a wedding, we wanted to be like the big party and everything. And so um, as we were coming to the end of our grad program, you know, you get your visa expires, and then you have one year to find a job. And if you can't find a job, then you're out of the country. And so I was lucky to find a job. My husband was still searching, and then we start realizing, well, if both of us get married, then at least advise him some time to stay in the country with me while he continues to find a job. So we're looking into things. Uh, the Mexican government typically people can go to the consulate and get married under Mexican law at the consulate the same way they get like a birth certificate and and so on. But the problem was that the law in Mexico that you know is valid in consulates hadn't been changed since like 1812. And to give you an idea of how ridiculous it was, it wasn't even that it said marriage is between a man and a woman. It said marriage for men must be at least at the age of 16, for women at least at the age of 14. So that's like how old this this crazy law was. But we went and filed for a mer uh marriage license and they denied it uh on the premise that we were two men. And so we were with a time uh, you know, running uh ticking clock to try and get married so that we could stay in the country. Um, they said, well, just go to Mexico City and get married there and then come back and uh or you know, go to City Hall. And to us, it was just an opportunity to say, well, no, let's actually try and make this work instead of precedent. So we found a nonprofit lawyer who did a just pro bono work with us, and we actually sued both the president of Mexico and the Congress of Mexico and started this battle to uh get the government to change their laws.

David: 14:34

And uh yeah, you know, I'll say I'll save you all the details, but oh no, well, we'll save the details for the next episode, but please keep going. We'll do a part two for sure because Gavin is literally touching his nipples right now, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:47

Yeah, long story short, uh after many months and going back and forth and going from one court to the other, we finally beat the government and forced them to marry us. And that actually set a precedent because that now same-sex couples all around the world can go to a Mexican consulate and get married there. And you know, in the US, perhaps it's not such a big issue because we, at least to date, still have a burger fell. But if you think about a Mexican couple in Iran or Russia or wherever else, they can actually go to the consulate, get married there, and be recognized by the Mexican government as a couple of years.

Gavin: 15:21

I mean, history making right here on Gatriarchs. You heard it here. Well, not first, but yes.

David: 15:28

It's true. And I also I uh God, there's so much will we will have you back, I promise, because I really want to, I know Gabin wants to get into this, but like there's also something just personally I so appreciate about you that you were like, no, fuck off. I'm suing you. You know what I mean? Like, not standing down and just being like, Yeah, I guess we're gays, we can't get married. I guess, I guess we should just because you know, we all we all we all have to choose that sometimes. When do we stand up? When do we not? I think about that with my kids all the time. When do I stand no, I don't, I oh I I didn't mean it that way, but I also mean it that way. Like, when am I gonna like stand up to my daughter when she's screaming at me? But I mean like in you know, if a kid hits your kid on the playground, are you gonna stand up and like say something to the kid or the kid's father? Are you gonna be like, uh, I don't want to like get into a thing? But I love that you were just like, no, this entire government and the president of Mexico, I'm gonna get married and I'm suing you. Love it.

SPEAKER_00: 16:16

Yeah, and it's it's exactly what you said, right? Because they were putting it as, well, you can just go to City Hall, you can just travel to Mexico City. They were trying to but think about yeah, and think about all the you know folks who are in this country who cannot either afford to go and fly to Mexico City or or do not have the the papers legally to actually be able to go back to country or to go to city hall and do this. So it actually does end up setting protections for people. And so to us, it was uh, you know, a little grain in the in the broader um history that preceded us. But uh yeah, it sort of happened. And then when we actually got the news, it was a Friday, and they just to be asses with us to be honest, like they just scheduled the wedding for Monday because the consulate could then say when we'd be getting married. And so we had 48 hours to let our family know, like, well, I think we might get married on Monday. I was just starting a job and I knocked on my boss's door and said, Hey, is it okay if I take Monday off? Because I think I might be getting married. Um, so we had a very quick marriage with like the 30 folks who were in the city or who we could give a notice. And uh when we got there, there were cameras all around because of course once the consulate said yes, then they wanted to make it a story, right? And so they wanted to exploit you. Yeah, they brought the New York Times and they brought CNN and like and so for like two minutes we had a little bit of fame and then it was all and that but now you have fame again being on gauge drugs.

David: 17:47

I mean, you're you're there's gonna be cameras outside your house the second they hear that you're on the show. But also, what it what's amazing is weren't you the first couple, like you were the officially first couple who got married under this.

SPEAKER_00: 17:57

Yeah, we were the first same-sex couple to get married under Mexican federal law.

Gavin: 18:01

You're in the history books too. Truly. This is awesome. Well, in the meantime, let's bring it back down to um just uh the the normal humdrum, boring ass shit stories. And even though you don't have baby poop stories to share with us, tell us a little, you know, one of your horror stories of this process to becoming a dad.

SPEAKER_00: 18:22

Um, I think it's been a bit of when we were trying to find a surrogate. Um we well, just to give you an update of where we are today, we uh we've found a surrogate, we had a successful transfer, and we are about to hit our first trimester. So all fingers crossed, things are gonna go smooth. But uh in the process of finding a surrogate, because nobody really tells you how to look for one. And and the way that our agency works is they would you'd wait for like a year and a half, and then you're all anxious trying to get a profile, and then you see the first profile, and you're trying to read between the lines and see what you know what are the hints and what are not the uh you know, the do's and don'ts, and the the so we had three markers, and we'd go through the profile and say all the good things we're gonna highlight in green, all the you know, fun facts we're just gonna highlight in yellow, and then all the red flags we'd be like red, red, red. Um, so we'd sit down and just look at the things. And my husband is a lot more of like, uh, that's not really a red flag. We should we can live with it. And I was like, oh no, this person eats this thing. Like, imagine them eating this thing and uh during the proxy. Um so we went through like three, four profiles before we landed with um our current uh surrogate. And um, you know, it's it's not an uh uh awful story by any means, but to be honest, when we got to our current surrogate, um, the very first thing that I read in his pro in her profile was uh Arkansas, and that's where she's based. And being a gay immigrant and you know, knowing nothing about Arkansas but what I read through the New York Times and the news.

Gavin: 20:00

Seriously now. Yeah. They they don't have a whole lot of like 36 hours and fabulous little rock in the time.

SPEAKER_00: 20:08

And you know, uh so we were like, well, do we go for it? Do we not go for it? Uh Hyman, my husband, was like, you know, let's do a call with her, see what it what it's like. And when we hopped on the phone, uh it really started to just demystify the idea of estates can just be split into red and blue, and there's nothing in between. And uh now that we've been a part of her life and she's been a part of our lives for you know almost like five months, I guess. It's been so wonderful to just know her as a human, know her forget to know her family. We're headed there in January to to meet her and yeah, just realize that at the end of the day, we're all humans. She's trying to raise her kids, she's trying to live her life. We are too. And uh that she was super supportive of LGBT rights in general, and she was super progressive. And so to us, it was just a little nice um yeah, moving us out of our bubble and making us realize that life is a bit more complex than labels. Yeah, that's a great lesson.

Gavin: 21:08

We are so excited to follow your entire story and uh and have you back and chat some more.

David: 21:14

And also, I'm just like I was just sitting here thinking about like you and your boldness. And I feel like that's the thing I've taken away from this interview and getting to know you is like not the silly side of boldness where you made this t-shirt, which was very funny, but also the boldness of you to do changing the the laws in Mexico. Like you you have found you have changed a lot of people's lives for the better for having done that because you've opened this up and you were bold enough to try and do it. And so and you're bold enough to I don't know, meet a surrogate in Arkansas, which I don't think is not bold. I think that's like I would be also afraid. So thank you for your boldness and to demean himself by being on our stupid little podcast, too. Thank you for demeaning yourself by being on our stupid little podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 21:56

Yeah, thank you guys. As you know, I'm a big fan. Uh, listen every Wednesday. I'm waiting for 6 a.m. to to ring so I can download it, go for a run. Uh thank you for creating the space. Thank you. I love it.

David: 22:10

Okay, Gaben. Our next guest is one of us. He's one of us all New York City types, but unlike us, he's like actually cool and qualified to live here because he's an architect, he's a travel junkie, he's a qualified exterior wall inspector, whatever the fuck that means. He's a dad, but most importantly, he's our listener. Please welcome to the show, our listener, Leon Geo Xavier. Hi, hi, hi, hi.

SPEAKER_02: 22:40

Leon, thank you for joining me. I'm so excited to be here.

David: 22:43

Leon, we are super excited to have you here. Um, you are one listener, so really, this is just a conference call from all the people who work or listen to this podcast. Um, but you know how we start every interview. Please tell us how did your kids drive you bananas today?

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

Oh, well, um, I have two sons. Uh, they're Eric, who's 12, and Reeves, who's 11. And um, you know, they each drive me crazy in different ways. But my younger son is um, we're very excited. He applied and got into the Professional Performing Arts School. It's a New York City public uh middle school and high school over on 48th and uh 8th Avenue, right there in Broadway. It's like a Broadway-themed middle school and high school. So, like there's no varsity sports, but everyone has to do dance and singing, right?

David: 23:33

So that's no, don't do it. No, do sports. Let's just do it. We have a we have some strong feelings about that.

Gavin: 23:40

He needs to be a doctor or an attorney, or apparently an external wall inspector or something like that.

SPEAKER_02: 23:47

Yeah, no, you know, I mean, I I he got into the school and someone asked if he wanted to do acting, and I said, I don't really care. I mean, he gets to go to a Broadway theme school on Broadway. I mean, it does sound amazing. It does sound amazing. I mean, if you got to go to, you know, croissant baking school in Paris and I deprived you of the opportunity, right?

David: 24:06

You know, so whether he wants it's just important for Gabin and I to tell people to always, always, always ignore your dreams, never follow them, bury them deep, deep inside of you, and never talk about them again. So, but it sounds exciting for your son.

SPEAKER_02: 24:19

Well, I mean, I grew up in Los Angeles, and if I could tell you the number of architects who struggled and told me not to go into architecture in Los Angeles, quite a few. Um, so yeah, stable professions for my children, acting, arts, gay structure.

David: 24:33

I mean, it's just nightmares all.

SPEAKER_02: 24:34

Gay parents, great fields. Um, but the way they drive me nuts, my younger son, he used to have a habit of taking things to school that he wasn't supposed to, like toys. And so the school said, please don't bring toys, and I said, obviously, of course. So, you know, we we put the kibosh on that. But now that he goes to an acting-themed school, his biggest trick is a few. He needs props every day of his life. Yeah, brilliant. I've learned that trick. And so now it's like, you know what, you're gonna have to learn acting the mime way or whatever it is without the props, because we're not taking all this stuff to school all the time. So no. You guys have some experience in acting, aren't you?

David: 25:13

I will say you have you should be a proud dad because that is a sly move. That is a really slick, like that's he's really using his brain there. So I feel like that's the part you're like, you know what, it's a little shitty because I gotta deal with this like this thing now, but it's which is what acting is. You mean lying, yes. Yeah, no, no, no, no, lying. Yes.

Gavin: 25:31

And of course, David, I I just the the only thing I can think of here is right now is when do we get to working jokes about legally blonde?

David: 25:38

I mean if if you have if your son has not memorized the entire original Broadway um recording from MTV of Legally Blonde, then you need to just end this call because that is an important part of learning how to be on Broadway. But I will say, I'm so happy to have you here. We are so happy to have you here because you are our listener. We love our listener, and so I want to get to know our listener. Tell us about you. You you sent us your bio and it said qualified exterior wall inspector. Come on, what the fuck does that even mean?

SPEAKER_02: 26:08

So, on a professional level, I am an architect. I'm a registered architect in the state of New York. And I actually went to architecture school at the Tulane University School of Architecture in New Orleans, Louisiana. And um, I wasn't doing that well, to be honest, but there was a historic preservation program, which I heard was easier. And so I uh graduated architecture school with kind of a concentration historic preservation. New Orleans is a beautiful old city if you get a chance to visit. Um, and then when I got here to New York, uh, God, there are a lot of old buildings. And so these old buildings do require inspections to make sure they're safe and goods of building don't fall on you as you traverse the city. So um I am certified to inspect buildings that are uh six stories and taller here in New York City and give them their pass or fail grades.

Gavin: 26:57

Is there a superpower tool you use, like some kind of radar gun that you stand across the street and measure? Or do you get up and put your ear against the wall? I'm s I don't understand how this works.

SPEAKER_02: 27:10

Well, actually, it's it's kind of funny because everyone's talking about AI nowadays. And between AI and drones and all the machines, my job is fortunately one of those that really can't be replaced that easily because I have to go on the side of a building, either on a scaffold or an articulating boom or some kind of you know access device and physically feel the building and make sure that it's safe. And that means, you know, physically sounding and testing uh to make sure the building is secure and not going to fall down. It takes a little bit of you know skill, but it takes actually riding the scaffolds. So if you see the people on those scaffolds up and down uh tall buildings in the city, that's that's decent.

David: 27:49

That's our get that's our Gatecharch's listener, and you better protect him with your life. And you know what I will say for those of you who have not lived who have not lived in New York City or been here, it this is clearly a very important job because when you're walking down these streets, there's nowhere to go. If if a if a tiny little crumb of a rock peels off one of those buildings on the 50th floor, yeah, it's gonna go directly through your body.

SPEAKER_02: 28:12

Yeah, and uh for if you because you guys are familiar with New York City, nothing is worse than walking around New York City in the summer and you get hit by a drop of liquid and you don't know what the food is. You don't know what it is. It's probably air conditioner condensation, but you're for a minute you're like, what if it's something gross?

David: 28:28

But it could be pigeon piss, it could be somebody who just hopped a boogie out of their apartment. It could be literally anything. Um so Leon, you um became a dad with the help of the kind of foster, uh the New York foster system, correct? Right.

SPEAKER_02: 28:41

Yeah, so I mean, I of course I'm listener, so I've been hearing all these stories and your guys' stories and the stories of your guests, and a lot of people I know are going, a lot of gay dads, um, go the uh Sarrogacy route. My ex-husband and I, um, you know, we determined that that wasn't for us for a number of reasons, but really cost was a big one too. And um, we decided to go the adoption route. And, you know, if you see a modern family, they adopt Lily from I think Vietnam or something. But actually at the time, um, international adoption for gay dads wasn't really feasible or possible. So you're really your only um method is either private adoption or public adoption here in the United States. And here in New York City, they actually do have quite a few kids in the foster care system um that need fostering, and that uh many times turns into adoption if they uh become free for whatever reason it gets messy and complicated. But um no, we and and again, in terms of money, they pay you as opposed to you pay out.

Gavin: 29:44

So I'm that's just saying, just saying getting paid as a father. That's fantastic. Well, it's funny.

SPEAKER_02: 29:51

So they said, well, okay, so you get a stipend every month, and then um, you know, they get uh health insurance and in the future access to uh CUNY and SUNY, which is city and state schools here in New York. And then they said you get WIC, which is uh Women Fit and Children uh food stamps. And I kind of said to them, like, uh, it's a little embarrassing, but I think I make enough that I don't need them. And they said, No, it's not for you, it's for the baby. And I said, Oh, well, I I get it, but like, well, and I didn't understand this, but like as a foster parent, you're not really their parent. They're kind of like these independent, stateless humans. So you have to go by their income, which is a baby, is zero. Lazy fucking babies, first of all. I know, right? No. Um, and it was funny. My ex-husband, who's a who's a social worker, is like, well, can't they just give us the checks? Do we have to bring the child in? And I said, they want to make sure we're feeding the child. Yeah. So like that's like the scary part, is like, that's my wow. Um, but yeah, and ultimately um they were freed for adoption, and we adopted them when they were three and four under the babies can't wait program. So apparently not waiting means three years in our system, but still progress. Wow, that's fantastic.

Gavin: 31:05

And and their siblings?

SPEAKER_02: 31:06

They are, so they're full biological siblings to each other. And so when the our older son was uh a baby, um, he did have some visitation with his birth mother, and um, she was pregnant again, and we weren't allowed to ask. And so at some point, everyone kind of saw physically that she was pregnant, and they said, that being the city, saying, Well, if they're biological siblings, we want to keep them together. So either you take the second child or we'll put both in a separate household, which it's like a no-brainer. I mean, I wanted more than one child, I wouldn't have shown such close spacing, but you got to deal with what, you know, life handsy sometimes.

David: 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 31:42

And um, you know, one of the things that's interesting about adoption versus uh the surrogacy route, I know I've talked to other gay dads who've been thinking about parenting or our parents, and they say, well, with surrogacy, you know, there's a biological connection, and I'm worried with the adoption um connection that I'm not gonna have the same kind of um influence or connection or kind of bond, whatever that is. And so fast forward to my kids are now 11 and 12, and um I've been forcing them to watch movies from the 80s and 90s so they wouldn't be exposed to it. You must teach the children, you've got to educate the children. So I said forcing, forcing is a key. So I said, well, I said we're gonna watch the movie Trading Places with Dan Eckroyd and Eddie Murphy. And if you've seen the movie, you know, one of the um themes is that, you know, is it nature or versus nurture? How much is biology and how much is environment? And so, you know, I asked my kids, considering they're adopted, I said, how much of you, who you are, you think is biological versus, you know, um what you've kind of uh absorbed just over the course of your life in terms of environment? And they said, probably about 98.2. And I'm like, 98 what? And they're like, 98%, you know, environment and 2% technology. And I said, you think I'm responsible for 98% of your mistakes. Of your mistakes, yeah, no, of all your familiars.

David: 33:02

The 98% is all the great stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I feel like it's the opposite. I feel like our kids kind of come out already kind of rep pre-programmed, and you can kind of adjust the sides here and there. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 33:16

I I might be on the other side of that, I guess, where I think it's I would, I would, I would challenge you on that because I thought, like you did originally, like if you're been to the zoo and like a giraffe gives birth to a baby giraffe, and that giraffe just starts walking and talking and doing all sorts of fun stuff. Talking and talking particularly babies are born with such little innate knowledge. I mean, I'm sure you've seen with your children, you have to teach them everything how to use a spoon, how to lick an ice cream cone.

Gavin: 33:43

You have to everything is talking.

SPEAKER_02: 33:45

I I would have thought more of who we are as humans is just innate, but like everything, like they are just a mimic and sponge of who you and and your family.

David: 33:55

Leon, I want to just say that like I had a really rough morning with my daughter, so I'm just going to tell you none of that was me. All of that. That's all that's all. All biology that was all my husband and our egg donor. I have I have no claims on that. Exactly. I just want to make sure that's it. And I think that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02: 34:09

I think I think when life gets rough, people say, Oh, that's from your side of the family. Like, I don't, I'm not connected to that. I don't know her. You got that. I don't know her. I don't know what she's doing. That mother-in-law of mine that I don't like, that's for doing it. Yeah, yeah. That's for buying.

David: 34:19

So um uh these these these particular interviews are gonna be very short, but but I do want to ask you because when we did the pre-interview, you mentioned you were divorced from your husband in 2019. And I think it's really uh we've we've had uh other divorce gay dads on the show, but I think it's a it's a thing, interesting thing to bring up because we all go into marriage thinking, oh, it's gonna be forever. And if it doesn't happen, I think there are some practical concerns about like what basically my question is do you have any advice for maybe dads, gay dads who are parents to to two kids who are maybe gonna get divorced soon. They've decided that's the right for them. Do you have any advice for them?

SPEAKER_02: 34:54

Oh my gosh, so much. But um, first of all, you know, we're kind of the same age, right? We're all 29.

David: 35:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02: 35:01

No, right.

David: 35:01

Hold on, let me just adjust the filter really quick.

SPEAKER_02: 35:03

Fine. I got it. Fine. I'm 31. Yes, David. So fine.

Gavin: 35:07

I'm older.

SPEAKER_02: 35:07

I don't know about you guys, but growing up, I didn't even think gay marriage was possible. We were like excited about domestic partnership in Vermont for 10 seconds. So, like, a lot of this kind of snowballed fast, and then I have to remind the young gays. It was like legal in California for a hot minute and then they took it away. So then there was this rush to be like, if they ever legalize it in your state, just rush to the altar and have some state quick, grab a dude and get married.

David: 35:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 35:31

Turns out we probably should have thought this through a little bit, right? I mean, it's kind of like taking people that weren't taught to drive and just throwing them the keys to a car. I would not, and so, you know, of course, my ex-husband and I, we were young, we didn't have anything, and we just kind of. I did not realize it matters what state you get married in, it matters what state you get divorced in, it matters who actually does the filing. I mean, we when you get married, it's like both people come to the altar and say, I do. In New York, at least, you have to be either the plain or the defendant, meaning like the instigator or the victim. So even though we were divorcing each other, because I filed, I was like the instigator. I was like the plaintiff, and he was like the defendant. Like he was just innocent. And so I was like, you know. And um, you know, again, there are conversations about alimony and child support that are not easy on a good day. But like, as I don't know, as young gay men, were you taught about alimony and child support? Yeah, right.

David: 36:28

No, and Gabe's used to playing the victim, he's always the victim.

Gavin: 36:31

So but it does seem like they could have had some kind of training before you walk down the aisle of being like, BT dubs, if this should end, one of you is gonna be, you know, it it this would be a very good training program, frankly, before we're gonna do it. And not just like getting married, yeah. Not just religious counseling with somebody who says, Do you think you're this is the holy matrimony in God's eyes? But let's have some practicality here.

David: 36:54

I remember literally taking one of those like baby classes, like how to raise a baby, because we wanted to. It wasn't required by our state, but we were like, I want to learn. And I remember somebody raised their hand, like, how many diapers a day and do you normally change in in the beginning? And the woman who was running the class said, Around 10 to 15, and there was an audible gasp in the room. Literally, everyone gasped. And I was like, Yeah, we should all be required to take this class. And maybe everyone who's about to get married should take some sort of like, here's what it means, here's how it could end. Yeah, a practical.

SPEAKER_02: 37:23

Yeah, I mean, for someone that went through the foster care system, I went through classes, someone reviewed my financial figures and employment history, someone did a home study to make sure our home was safe. And I'm like, You mean you biological people just like they just throw you a baby and walk away? Like they don't even ask questions and I don't want to. Yep. Wow. Yep. Um, so yes, if you're contemplating divorce, um, you know, of course, talk to experts ahead of time. And again, who knew? But it matters what state you're in, because uh in New York, we're lucky enough to have no fault divorce, which you know, divorce is already complicated enough. But, you know, when things get acrimonious or messy, you know, my lawyer at one point pulled me aside and said, This is a no-fault divorce. Okay, so we're just talking about money and property. This is not about who's a better person, who was a better parent, who was like, you know, a more faithful uh, you know, lover. Like on none of that matters. And in some states it does, which is frightening. But um, at least in no fault divorce states, I mean, this is like a debusinessing transaction. It's not like a personal moral uh you know, vendetta crusade.

Gavin: 38:27

I mean, there is so much more to unpack there for sure. But uh but now I want to.

SPEAKER_02: 38:32

Oh, sorry, we're both happily divorced and repartnered. So the kids have two adoptive dads and two stepdads, so they have four dads in total. That's too many dads.

David: 38:39

Look, listen, as too many dads, honestly. That's too gay. Do you know what I mean? Four four ex-gay? Like that's that's a lot of gay.

SPEAKER_02: 38:46

Imagine, imagine four awkward conversations about your low grade of math. Yeah.

Gavin: 38:53

All right, we this is a rabbit hole that I would love to go down to, down, but I want to talk about ourselves now. Can you tell us, um, bringing it back to being listener, how did you find us and why on earth do you stick around? Yeah, what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02: 39:08

No, I love you guys. Um, so I've I actually I think I heard a commercial, oddly enough, because I was listening to another podcast, and then I think I heard one of your spots say that, you know, this is who you are, this is what you did, and um, I started listening to you guys. And of course, um, just like with streaming television now, uh, sometimes you find something and then binge it all in in one dose, and then you forget when new episodes are released, need to come out. Sure. So I've done that. Um, and again, it's sometimes hard to find a good podcast uh that you like uh listening to. Because again, I know it's so hard for you guys to put this out every whatever duration it is, but um, you know, for someone who binges it, you'll listen to like hours in a row and then say, Hey, what happened?

David: 39:50

So sobering, and thank you and apologies for everything that David is. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. Okay, so wait, before we leave. You go, you know the show, you've binge the show, which sounds like a nightmare to me to have to listen to Gabe into talking for hours on end. But we know what the last question is is please please tell us one of those fucking horror stories from the trenches of being a parent and when you earned that parenting brownie badge.

SPEAKER_02: 40:16

Oh, okay. So again, back in the day, there used to be so back in the day at some point, there were these little diamond stickers that people would put on their cars that said baby on board. And as someone who didn't have a child, I was like, that's weird. Well, I'm gonna be like a more conscientious, you know, fellow driver because you're a baby, whatever. And then I had a baby. And again, I know it's different now for us as it was for our parents' generation, but like the baby car seat had to go in the back seat and it was facing back. So I'm in midtown New York City traffic trying to drive and deal with all of that chaos, which is fine on a normal day. And my son, who is a baby, is in the backseat facing the other direction, and I can't see him. So I'm trying to like find the pacifier and the bottle and feed him while I'm driving. And then I realized I should have one of those stickers because it's not saying you should be more conscientious. It's a warning that I am the problem. Watch out for me as a jaywalkers in this case. I'm tired, I'm distracted, I'm trying to feed a baby, I'm the problem. It's me, I'm the problem. Baby bored, sorry, everyone watching out, bad driver. So, did you get one of those? No, because that's a behavioral, thank god. But you know, just for a while, I was like, I know I should have had it to warn other people on the street.

David: 41:36

Yes, that is something I've never thought about, but that's you're so right. That that is a warning to them that exactly I'm tired and I'm fishing literally this morning. I was fishing a half eaten bag of Cheetos that was on the floor that had, I'm sure it had mold on it, but my daughter had decided this is what she needed to not scream the whole way. And I'm literally swerving as I'm trying to do it. You're totally right. It's watch out, I'll kill you.

Gavin: 41:59

But best of all, like Leon, I'm glad that you are just as much a hypocrite as the rest of us. Perfectly on brand. You didn't actually get the sticker, so congratulations.

David: 42:06

You are definitely a gay triarch. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. Thank you for demeaning yourself by listening to our stupid little podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 42:15

I look forward to every one when it comes out.

David: 42:20

Okay, our guest is a dog dad, a hopeful future human dad, an HGN, which is a hot gay nerd for those younger than 30, and passionate about HIV education and advocacy. He is from the South, so he and I speak the very same language, Redneck. Please welcome to the show our one, our only, our favorite listener, Jack Hoda.

Gavin: 42:44

Hey, Jack.

SPEAKER_03: 42:45

Thanks, y'all. It's I'm happy to be here. And yes, I do speak Southern. I did actually do karaoke two nights ago and sing Orval Peck. Oh, very gay Southern. Um, and realized my voice doesn't actually go that deep, so it was a disaster. Uh-huh. But we were enough drinks in that it didn't matter.

David: 43:06

Exactly. Karaoke disasters, I think, are it's a safe place to fail for sure. And honestly, you mixing gay and south, that's Orval. I mean, that's you've you've basically done it. Exactly. Did you wear a mask? I should have.

Gavin: 43:20

Had that been your go has Orville always been your go-to for karaoke, or you don't have like a lifelong this is my karaoke song?

SPEAKER_03: 43:28

Absolutely not. That is not generally my go-to. I'm usually like a Katy Perry girl.

David: 43:33

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 43:34

So I don't know what possessed me.

David: 43:36

And do you like do the flips like she does now at the concert, or she's just like, why does every female singer need to be strung up on wires in their concert and fly around the stadium? What is going on with that?

SPEAKER_03: 43:49

You know, they're just kind of all one-upping each other. Yeah. Yeah. But Katy Perry, I actually got to see her. I live in New Orleans now, and she was the headliner for one of the Mardi Gras Balls this year. And it was like the best night of my life, honestly.

David: 44:07

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_03: 44:09

Like just all the bangers, ever it was a huge concert in the Superdome. Everyone was so drunk. We didn't leave until probably three or four in the morning.

Gavin: 44:22

It was a great time. Nice. And did she fly and do flips over the audience?

SPEAKER_03: 44:26

You know, she didn't. She did not do any of that, but uh she did have her signature horrible dance moves. And at some point, I'm pretty sure I could be remembering things incorrectly. Again, it's Marty Gras. But um, I'm pretty sure a city council member gave her a key to the city.

David: 44:49

Oh, I mean at some point on the show. So but you know what? We forgive the people we love. Like like Katie Perry, we forgive your terrible choreography. Mariah Carey, we forgive that you don't sing live anymore. I don't need it, right? I don't need Mariah Carey to sing all I want for Christmas is you live anymore. You have put in the work, girl. Your voice was amazing. You're in a different phase, you're in the sunset era of your life. Just stand there, do a park and park. Just stand there and look cute while everyone dances around you. And I feel the same with Katie Perry. Listen, she's been a star for so long. I don't, I don't need anything more from her.

Gavin: 45:21

But anyway, and also Katie and Mariah have always been friends of the family, also. So they're forgiven and just like stand there and be beautiful. And just I think I completely agree with you. I had to explain to my daughter the other day, who actually described Mariah Carey as a one-hit wonder. And I almost drove off the road. I almost drove off the road to say, listen, girl, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Now, listen, I am not the biggest Mariah fan on the planet, but I do know that she is an icon. And my daughter, who is a pop idol worshiper, needs to understand her history. So anyway.

David: 45:57

That's the sacred text. Yeah, I feel like, Gavin, I hope the answer is yes. The only appropriate thing to do in that scenario is to pull over to the side of the road, ask her to get out, and leave her at the bus stop because that was blasphemy. Agreed, agreed. Okay, but wait, Jack, we forgot the first question, which normally is how did your children drive you bananas today? But you haven't yet become a fa a father of a human child. But how did your chihuahua drive you bananas today?

SPEAKER_03: 46:24

Oh my god, they're constantly driving me crazy. Um, this morning, they woke me up at six in the morning by just standing on my head and licking my face. Which is generally wake me up, but it's usually like not until seven at least. Yeah. This morning, they were just had to go potty, they want their food, and then as soon as I feed them, they're back in bed and I have to start my day.

Gavin: 46:51

It's very frustrating. That sounds exactly like parenting a human child as well. So you're prepared, you're ready.

David: 46:57

I actually was just thinking that's how my husband wakes me up. He licks my face, he demands me to go right back to sleep. Um, so you came to us um via you heard an episode with Brian Rosenberg, who um runs gays with kids. Tell us why you stuck around. Why the hell would you sit around and listen to this bullshit an hour a week?

SPEAKER_03: 47:19

Well, I didn't expect it to be so fun and funny. I knew, you know, Brian Rosenberg's reputation, someone living with HIV. I expected it to be, you know, like an emotional kind of thing. And there was emotion, right? But it was so fun. And y'all's banter is fun. And it's just like listening to my gay friend's kiki. And so I just stuck around.

Gavin: 47:46

Wow. David, you really this was this is definitely a good ego boost. Thank you. You're sending us out on the holidays with uh just an inflated ego. Thank you.

David: 47:54

Well, yes, uh, that that is important. Yeah, that is very important because that's really what we're doing here is we've invited our listener on so they can compliment us and then we say bye-bye, and that's the end. Um, but but tell us a little bit, because you work in this um HIV education, correct? Tell us about what you do uh and and your day-to-day life.

SPEAKER_03: 48:15

Yeah, so I my role is I'm an HIV services manager, um, but I really am just kind of in the administrative side of a community health center managing federal grants for HIV care and support services for people who are low income and underinsured. Um, and so for that, for us here in New Orleans, that's more than 8,000 people living with HIV in the New Orleans metro area. And my clinic serves about 3,000. Um, and so it's a really big program. I love what I do. Um, but I got into public health through like LGBT health more generally. I worked at a clinic in North Carolina managing the trans health program, helping folks get like name change and gender marker changes and navigate insurance coverage for gender-affirming surgeries, and then kind of weasel my way into the HIV world because I've that's what I'm very, very passionate about as someone living with HIV.

Gavin: 49:18

We generally I would say avoid politics on the show because what show are you talking about?

David: 49:25

We talk about it all the time.

Gavin: 49:27

You have a politics segment. Are your you run, Gavin? Are your services, dare I ask, being affected right now, or are you afraid they're gonna be rightly affected?

SPEAKER_03: 49:38

Yes, in a in so many ways, right? Um, so I work at a community health center um that started as an aid service organization in the 80s and then kind of over time expanded and now is what's called a federally qualified community health center, FQH, um, that receives federal funding to do full service primary care, behavioral health, oral health for folks who are low income and uninsured. We are required to provide services regardless of ability to pay and have like sliding scale for people without insurance. And so it's not just our HIV programs that are being affected right now, it's like everything. We have my clinic has like the biggest um transgender health clinic in the south, in the Gulf South. Um, and we are constantly under attack in that space. We had to kind of scrub a lot of stuff from our website because we've heard reports that the government is using AI bots to like scan federal aid recipients websites for DEI language, which is absolutely insane.

David: 50:46

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_03: 50:47

Um stupid. And every time we hear something about like a new budget proposal or a new appropriations bill or whatever, they're trying to eliminate literal grants that I manage that pay my salary that allow us to provide services to more than 3,000 people living with HIV in the city. And so it's been a rough year. Yeah, really crazy.

Gavin: 51:12

Yeah, we're all we're stumbling towards the finish line of this year just to run through another three laps of this bullshit, that's for sure.

David: 51:19

But anyway, so Jack, is your clinic the clinic responsible for turning all the kids trans? Is that where it's okay? Okay, it's already sure. Got it. Okay, yeah, yeah. That's right. You gotta you have like a five trans kid minimum every day. It's like cops with like speeding tickets. Um, okay, so moving on to parenting, you are not yet the parent of a human child, but when we enter when I talked to you, um, you said that is something that you maybe want in the future. Is that something you've talked with your fiance, by the way? Congratulations about. Congrats.

SPEAKER_03: 51:50

Thank you. Um, so yeah, so obviously growing up gay in South Mississippi, very in the closet until like 17, I always kind of envisioned, you know, the very traditional hetero in the church, three kids with the wife family. So kids were something that I always wanted. And then when I came out, it was like, let's do something completely different and you know, have a debaucherous life, which I have.

Gavin: 52:21

Um enjoyable and exactly and loving and all the things.

SPEAKER_03: 52:26

Yeah, and then ne kind of pushed the idea of children out of my mind and never really gave it much thought until my fiance and I got together. We've been together seven years. Um, never really thought I would have a relationship like that either. Um, and you know, lots of ups and downs, lots of moves, lots of crazy career shifts. And so over the past two years, we've gotten to a place where we just feel really stable, feel very like committed to each other and the life that we're building together. So we got engaged this year and really started talking about kids. Both of us never thought that that was something that we would explore together, but now we have been a lot. Um, and it's actually it's what brought me to y'all's podcasts because I learned about Brian Rosenberg, thinking about is surrogacy even an option for me as someone living with HIV and hearing his story. And then now I've taken all the courses on GWK Academy trying to figure out what this is look like.

David: 53:35

Yeah, and so we're just trying to figure it out right now. And I love how you were like, you know, we were feeling stable and great in our relationship. So we decided to ruin all of that and have children.

SPEAKER_03: 53:45

Yeah, it's totally trying to get married, even though a wedding is gonna cost us three gazillion dollars that we don't have.

David: 53:51

It's it's literally like, you know, though they say don't you can't you shouldn't move, get married, or have children in the same year or something. My husband and I did literally all three in the same year. So you don't don't but you know what you say, there is there is a serious side to this that I think a lot of people who aren't gay don't understand is that when you grow up performing a version of yourself that's not authentic, and then you kind of come out, you become authentic, you have to go back and unpack those parts of you that you thought were true to you, like having children, having you know a wife and two and a half kids, and go, how much of that is authentic to me, and how much of that was just the show I was putting on. I was the same way. I remember writing in one of those like senior college books or senior uh high school books that was like, I will be married when I'm and you could fill in all the blanks. And I wanted to meet my wife at 19, get married at 22, and have three kids by 27. And I wrote that in my book and uh LOL, first of all, right? Um, I was literally psyched behind the gas station at that point. But like but there was a but but you know, I after when I came out, I did the same thing as you. I was like, I'm gonna party, I'm gonna go crazy, I'm gonna funny, do whatever I want now. And then I was like, oh, maybe I do still want kids. Like, I think about it a lot, and that became an authentic part of me. And it sounds like maybe that was one of those for you.

SPEAKER_03: 55:02

Pretty much, very much the same kind of trajectory. It took a long time to unpack a lot of that. I mean, I'm still unpacking it. I think it will be the rest of my life, you know? Always will be, yes. Exactly.

Gavin: 55:15

A little fun fact about you also is that you're a comic book fan. Yes. And I wonder if that goes hand in hand with your hot gay nerdness, right? The HGNs and comic books, the Venn diagram. There is probably a pretty significant overlap. Who is your favorite and least favorite character?

David: 55:35

Oh my gosh, that's a really hard question. Tough questions here at the Gay Trix podcast. We hit hard.

SPEAKER_03: 55:42

I love so many comic book characters. My favorite is realm of comics is X-Men. Obviously, they're very queer and the whole minority metaphor is very queer-coded. They're also very sexy. And I think my favorite is Jean Gray, Phoenix. Okay. Her story is just so amazing. If you've ever read the Dark Phoenix saga, the way that she comes into this cosmic power of the Phoenix and like becomes literally at that time in the 70s, was the most powerful com uh comic book character in like any company, and she was a woman, so that was had never happened before, right? And right on. Um, she's also just kind of like a fashionista because many people don't know this, but before she became the phoenix, her like sidekick was being a model. Um, that's never in the movies, of course. Wasn't aware. Um and then she gets manipulated by nasty, disgusting men until she kind of loses her mind and becomes a dark phoenix and blows up an entire planet. You know, right. I mean some support women's wrongs, you know?

Gavin: 57:00

And wouldn't it be so satisfying to be able to just blow up a planet once in a while?

David: 57:06

Right. I love how gay your answer got too, because it wasn't just like, oh, they're in good shape or they're beautiful or whatever. You're like, you're talking about like fashion icons, you're talking about revenge. Like it gets real roll gay. Okay, what about least favorite? Who is somebody you're like, I don't need to hear any more of their story?

unknown: 57:22

Oh god.

David: 57:23

And I know you're gonna ruffle some feathers, you're gonna not be able to go to like Comic-Con after this, but you know.

SPEAKER_03: 57:29

Yeah, it's a hard one. I think this will ruffle feathers, but this is a pretty common answer in among queer X-Men fans, I think. So probably my least favorite character is actually Professor X, Xavier, and he's always like the hero in the movies.

David: 57:48

But in the comics, he's kind of just a dick. Like is it because you're anti-uh disabled people? Do you want to go ahead and say that live on this?

SPEAKER_03: 57:56

Uh no, he's anti-disabled people. In the comics, he's always trying to get out of his wheelchair. He actually isn't even in a wheelchair anymore, he hasn't been in a wheelchair for years. But he um he's kind of crazy. Yeah.

David: 58:12

Okay, so rounding this out, just trying to make this a little more parenty. Imagine you're a dad. So you now have your baby, uh, you're you're you're a father now. What do you think is the hardest part about parenting for as a not yet parent? And then what do you think will be the best part of parenting?

SPEAKER_03: 58:30

So the most I have to go off of is being a gunkle. I have two nieces and that lets me experience, I think, the best parts and not really so much the bad parts, except for you know, a tantrum or a blowout here and there. Sure. Um but they're just so they're so funny. They get these little personalities, and it's like, how can this two-year-old have be like a fully formed person at the same time? We were with them this past week for like an early family Christmas, and I got them these little digital cameras, and they loved it. They were taking, they've already taken probably like 3,000 pictures each. I don't know if there's enough room on the SD card for it. And my niece like ran into the bathroom while they're potty training my nephew and snapped a picture while he was on the toilet and was just like, my mommy's gonna love that one. And she's like, Who are these kids?

David: 59:31

So I think the best part will just be like I remember my son getting a digital camera for I think his third or fourth birthday, and we caught him many times in the bathroom taking pictures of his dick and deleting dick pics of your son from his own camera is just a part of parenting. I was uh anticipating. Okay, what do you what do you think is gonna be the hardest part?

SPEAKER_03: 59:51

I think I'm I'm very much like a mom energy, like a nurturer, and so I just know that. The first time that my kid says they hate me or something along those lines, I'm probably just gonna like lock myself in the closet and cry for eight hours.

Gavin: 1:00:10

No, I I honor the compassion and the heart you bring to that, but I would actually predict that even you, uh Softy, will be a cynic by that point and just kind of roll your eyes and say, okay, anyway, just eat your peas anyway, because I love you no matter what.

David: 1:00:25

But yeah, that'll happen. That'll happen. You'll be alright. And it'll happen. You're good because I always imagined that conversation happening at you know 15. No, it happens at three. It happens at three. Yeah. Um Jack, thank you so much for demeaning yourself by A, being with us today, but also B spending any time listening to us. I can't imagine that people still do it, but you are one of the people who do it. So thank you so much. Thanks a lot, Jack. Keep us posted on your journey, okay?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:53

Of course. Thanks for having me.

David: 1:00:56

Okay, Gavin, I'm a little nervous about our next guest because it's not often that you get to meet your future ex-husband before you've met them in person. Because the ex Mr. Von Gordon is a mess of contradictions, okay? He works in IT, but he can't sign a document online. He's Scottish, but he lives in England. Um, and he's in his post-mid to late 20s and has no social media presence whatsoever. But that's what we love about him. Moreover, he's a dad, he's a husband, and most importantly, our one singular listener. Please welcome to the show the Scottish Baddie and a little girl's daddy, Liam Gordon.

Gavin: 1:01:38

I am in awe. I mean, I you know how when you meet your celebrity crushes, that's all it's basically always disappointing because they're all, but I know that Liam will be nothing but exceeding expectations. I'm so intimidated by this. So he just called you a disappointment, Liam, and you haven't said a single word on the spot.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:54

I know, right? Which is fine, because I was going to start by saying, good morning, future ex-husband, and the other guy.

David: 1:02:01

Oh, yes, yes. So you stole my thunder. Yes. I, you know, I love a listener who understands the tone of the show. We make fun of Gavin, we take jokes, and then we're done. We're out. Okay, Liam, you're you're you're royalty around here, but we gotta start. How does your kid drive you bananas today?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:19

We are deep, deep in the why phase. So, like this morning, getting dressed. Like, okay, take your pajamas off. Why? Because we have to get dressed for school. Why? Is it PE today? No. Why? Why? Why? Like, I thought we'd got out of that, but no. Why? So I nearly dropkicked her out the window to the car.

Gavin: 1:02:47

And in general, um, how what percentage of the of the time do you want to dropkick her, and what percentage of the time are you, you know, patient and rational, just the way we all said we would be before becoming dads?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:58

Um, I could lie to you and say I'm like 99% patient and loving and all those things. Please, we don't want to hear that.

Gavin: 1:03:05

Well, lies and hypocrisy is perfectly fine. But um, do you ever throw it back and and counter with another asking a question with a question?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:15

Well, my new tactic is like, you know, oh, why is she doing that? Whatever. I'm like, well, why do you think?

David: 1:03:22

And does it work? No, of course not. No, of course, we try.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:26

I was just I see all these videos online of like, you know, throw it back at them. Or like when they come to you, I think maybe it was from you guys. You know, when they come to you with a I'm hungry, and that's a statement.

David: 1:03:38

You've just you've just said a couple of nouns. Like, what are you talking about? Like, well, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:43

It doesn't work, but you know, we try these things that we see on social media.

David: 1:03:46

I for sure like I've stum I have uh stooped to my daughter's level many times where when she's doing that kind of shit and I've reached my peak, instead of walking away, I very much turn it on her. And like you said, it never works. I'm like, why? Why why do you not want to go to why do you want to blah blah blah blah? And then she just starts crying, and then I cry in her face just so and then she cries louder, and it all is a nightmare. So um you're doing great. You you fit it around here for sure. Isn't painting fun? It is so fun, but wait, it's even more fun when you're out of town. You, when we were emailing, were saying you were just recently in the glamorous state of Ohio here in the United States on a work trip.

Gavin: 1:04:26

And please reassure us that that was not your very first visit to the United States, because undoubtedly it would also be Midwest. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:33

Well, I don't know what you mean, the Riviera of the Midwest, right?

David: 1:04:36

I mean, oh my god, like at least, like I was saying before we start recording, at least it wasn't Cleveland.

Gavin: 1:04:40

Okay, all due respect to no well, we know we have no listener in Cleveland because uh our listener is here with us right now. So yeah, no, this is he's here, yeah, yeah, totally.

David: 1:04:48

Um, but when we were talking before in the pre-interview, something like stuck out to me, which I thought was really fascinating, was that you speak so many languages that I would not expect you to speak. And your story of how you got to where you're at and how you met your husband is actually very interesting. So tell us, what languages do you speak? Because I'm obviously obsessed with that, and also how did you meet your husband?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:07

Two varying levels, like English, obviously. Gaelic, French, Spanish, Chinese, and Catalan.

Gavin: 1:05:15

Wow. That is quite a mix. That is one of those, and also one of those things is not like the other.

David: 1:05:21

And by that, of course, I mean Gaelic, but so will you will you speak will you will you uh say something mean about Gavin really quick in Gaelic? Or maybe something really sexy too. That would be fine. That's right, we won't know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:33

Uh I mean it's more fun when he can understand us, don't you think? That's true.

David: 1:05:38

You don't know what Gavin's. You don't know what Gavin's into. He likes people talking derogatorily towards him in other languages, but in an only way he can go off.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:47

But then he won't cry.

Gavin: 1:05:49

Oh, that's true. I will I I always hide my tears on um on the air, but don't worry, afterwards I probably I promise I will. Okay, well, wait a minute. If you we'll come back to figuring out David's gonna actually rethink what he's gonna ask you to translate something very specific, but I would love to know how did you come about all of these languages, and in particular Gaelic, which I imagine you absorb from the countryside, right? And then but the Chinese.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:12

Yeah, so I mean I grew up in the north of Scotland, and I mean I'm far from fluent, I'll say that. Um but you know, you pick up a lot of it, especially when I spent a lot of time with my grandparents on the west coast of Scotland, where it's more widely spoken. Um the Chinese came because I left high school and I was working in Starbucks as a barista. And I said to a friend one day, I was like, what am I gonna do with my life? I can't just make coffee for the rest of my life. And she said, Come to university with me. So I did. Okay and studied French, Spanish, Chinese, and Catalan. All four of them at the same time. Kind of. So like Catalan was just one year. Uh-huh. Because interestingly, it counted as credit towards my Spanish.

David: 1:06:58

Well, that's yeah, it's adjacent. Yeah. Are they dying?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:02

Don't tell the people of Catalonia.

David: 1:07:04

No doubt. But then you but you went to China. You like went to China for a year. That's that's incredible. And where did you stick out like a sore thumb? I love watching these videos on YouTube and TikTok of like just tall white ginger people walking around, and it looks like they're a fucking monster walking through. People are just like taking pictures and staring and taking videos. Did you feel that way?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:22

Oh yeah. And like, yeah, I mean, I'm only 5'11, so I don't know that I checked tall, but yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:26

That's pretty tall.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:28

I used to get people come up and well, there were two things that would happen. They would either come up and say, Can we take a picture with you? I'm like, I'm not famous. Or they would just walk past and like pretend to be on the phone and you just hear the click or sometimes the flash. I'm like, guys, come on.

David: 1:07:43

Well, you weren't you weren't famous, but now that you're having this experience on Gatriarchs, Absolutely and you may become actually famous. But I want to know how you met your husband because it's adorable.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:54

Oh, so showing my age now, I came back from China and I told you the other day I was on my last night, I was that girl crying in the toilets of the club because I was so devastated to be leaving. And I was like, as soon as I graduate, I'm coming straight back. That was in 2008. Came back and I was on a little website called Gaydar, which I think we established might be UK only, but you have many equivalents.

David: 1:08:21

No, I think we I think we had Gaydar, but I think at that time it was more Manhunt and Adam for Adam were like the stars, but like, no, Gaydar I think for sure existed.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:29

Okay. Um so yeah, I was on there and was messaging this guy for months actually. I always like to rub this in his face that he chased me. So if he ever gets annoyed at me, I'm like, yeah, you chased us.

David: 1:08:41

Yeah, just as you wanted this roll rub out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:44

Yeah. Um, and so then I was, you know, I was sensible. We met in a Starbucks at like 3 p.m. on a weekday, like busy.

Gavin: 1:08:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:54

Um and six months later we did the lesbian thing and moving in together, and now here we are, however many years later that is, 17 and a bit years later.

Gavin: 1:09:05

Have you been able to return to China and uh use those skills still and hopefully impress your husband with all your linguistic abilities?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:12

Yeah, we did go back on vacation in 2015, um, and it is great because look at me, I do not speak China, I don't look like I should speak Chinese. So people will talk about you right in front of you, and the best thing is to let them do it. And then after like five minutes, just ask them, like, sorry, have you got the time or something? And then they go, Oh yeah, and then they go, Wait, did you understand everything we were saying? And I was like, Was it complimentary or derogatory? Mixed bag. There was one time we were going on a tour to the Great Wall of China, and you know, it was a tour bus, and we were the only white people on this bus. And the tour guide was speaking in Chinese to everybody. And at one point she said, you know, don't turn around. But if you look at those two gentlemen at the back of the bus, look how big their noses are.

SPEAKER_06: 1:10:01

Oh my god!

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:02

And I was like, alright. Oh my god.

David: 1:10:05

And it's did you go big nose, big dick, or something like that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:09

Yeah, yeah. Wow. I did not, I waited until we got off the bus, and then she was like collecting the money to buy the tickets. And I started discussing with her in Chinese about like there were different tickets you could get. And she was like, wait, you speak Chinese? I was like, Yeah. She was like, Oh, so you could understand on the bus. I was like, Yes. She was like, Oh.

David: 1:10:29

I mean, did she apologize or did she just oh my gosh.

Gavin: 1:10:33

That's awesome.

David: 1:10:34

That is that is wild. That happens to be obviously with Spanish, it's the same thing where like I'm I if I'm in an area, like I don't look like I speak Spanish, and being quiet is the best. But I love just on your way out, just dropping that like little like have a great day or whatever. Yeah. Um, Gator.com. So for the children out there, a website um is a location. That's actually I met my husband on match.com, and people are like, oh, match. I'm like, no, no, no, not match, not the app. Match.com, where you have to type in on your big giant computer. You had to log in. You absolutely password.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:07

The app store did not exist when we met.

David: 1:11:09

No, not at all. Okay, so you are a dad, and we talked a little bit about your journey to fatherhood and how in the UK, adoption and counsels and how it's all different. So tell us a little bit, A, how you became a dad, and B, kind of how the the process is different for you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:24

Yeah, like we always knew we wanted kids. I think it was our second date. We were talking about marriage and kids and all those things. And then, you know, life happens, you get busy, we bought a house and all, and we were like, oh well, you know, kids are expensive, it's not a good time. Turns out there's never a good time.

Gavin: 1:11:40

Never a good time, so just do it now.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:42

And then so we were starting to like think about it in like maybe the beginning of 2020. Great time. We all know what happened next.

David: 1:11:51

Yeah, it's a great time to have kids, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:53

So we hit pause, and then things were opening back up. We thought we were coming at the other end in like the September of 2020. How naive we were. So we contacted our local. So in the UK, most adoptions, not all, but most of them go through your local council.

Gavin: 1:12:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:08

And in the area we're in, five councils are grouped together just to pull resources. Um, so we contacted them and I was like, Look, do you have like an information pack or like an information evening we could go to? And they were like, just have the forms, just sign up, it's fine. So we did.

David: 1:12:25

Just sign here, and you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:27

Basically. And then all of a sudden we were doing the medical and the background checks and all these things, going through all the training, which was horrifying.

SPEAKER_04: 1:12:35

Why wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:36

You think, oh, you're gonna adopt a baby, let's give you some training. You might think, you know, bottles and dressing a baby and all those things. Nope. It was describe what sexual abuse of a child looks like. Oh. What are the things that someone would do? And I was like, excuse me.

Gavin: 1:12:55

And they want you to use your imagination to tell them to make their flags go up.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:01

It's because most a lot of these kids have been through some sort of abuse. So, like, we got given sexual abuse, some people got neglect, some got emotional abuse. We all different types of abuse to describe. Oh fun.

David: 1:13:13

Great.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:14

To show that you understood like these kids that might end up with you, like what have they been through? And what are the signs? What are the things to look out for?

Gavin: 1:13:21

Well, that's construct. It's helpful, but it was a weird way to start a class.

David: 1:13:25

Usually you're like, okay, but how do diapers work? Like, I don't know, right? Like, what's tabs? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:31

Or the other one was what I call the world's worst game show. So we all had three bits of paper. This was all on Teams because it was like deep in the depths of COVID times. If you had three bits of paper, yes, no, would discuss. And they said to us, like, so would you take a kid of a different race? Would you take a kid with HIV? Would you take a kid with cerebral palsy? And they had listed all of these things. And I'm sitting there, like, I feel like the worst person in the world. Yeah. I'm gonna hold up these signs in front of everybody. In front of everybody. On Teams. But still.

David: 1:14:01

But still, no, but I I I I actually see there's such a value. I think gay people are naturally better at discussing things that are difficult just because of how you know male-male sex works. But I I do think it is really good to force people to say these things out loud because it's it is not dissimilar from when we Gavin and I were looking at egg donors and circuits, and you're having to say, are we open to having an egg donor who's a different race or heavy set or we're all that you have to say some of your prejudices out loud or discover new ones you had no idea that you had. Like I always knew that I grew up kind of thick and chubby, and I was like, I must have a skinny kid because I want their life to be great. And and I and I it's like gross to have to say that out loud and confront it. But it's it's even grosser to do it on Teams in front of strangers.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:50

I know, right? And again, like no one's taking notes, and I don't know what anyone else said. I don't remember. They won't remember what I said, but you feel horrible doing it. But then later on in the process, you do have to write it down and give them a checklist. And it's the reason they do it is to make you think about these things. Yeah. So if they come to you with a child with a visual impairment, like, are you prepared to deal with that? Because they can't put this kid with you, and then two weeks later you say, actually, this is too hard. Take it back. Yeah, absolutely.

Gavin: 1:15:16

And can you remind us also, what is the process right now for gay adoption in the UK? Is it were there any restrictions? Did you have to jump through hoops or is everything open and like no issues?

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:26

It was fine actually. And our so one of the social workers who did all the training, she said, like, actually, gay parents often have an easier time of it. Because it's really obvious that the kid's adopted. Like, there's no like shock later on. Like, it's a conversation that everyone should have from when the kid is small. But some people don't. I know people who found out they were adopted as adults.

Gavin: 1:15:50

Right. That sounds so 1972. I mean, that sounds like from another era.

David: 1:15:55

Why we I remember finding out that my brothers and sisters were half brothers and sisters. They had because my parents had been married previously, and I had no idea. I found out at 14. I had no fucking idea. Yeah, no, that that that is absolutely true. And we we in our family make sure that whenever like the word mom comes up in a way that they're inquisitive, we like constantly say it. And then of course, as they're getting older, we get a little more detailed. Like at first, like, oh, everybody has two parents, and then it's like, oh, well, you know, we you know, you're in Aunt Erin's belly or you know, whatever, and it gets deeper, but yeah, starting it, so it's never a surprise. Well, they say it's like after age seven, there should be no surprises or something like that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:32

Yeah, that's what they told us. Like, obviously, color and flavor, if they've come from like a you know, born in a drug den, then don't give them all the details when they're five. Yeah, no. But make sure they know the broad strokes and you can fill in those later.

Gavin: 1:16:44

Make sure they know that before their college essays come due because then they're really going to be able to lean into that vulnerability and get into college easily. Gavin, was broad stroke your name on Gator.com? Uh yes, but it spelled very creatively. Speaking of uh of uh uh spelling and back to linguistics, because I think this is uh still my favorite topic. It I would say universally, and David, tell me what you think here, but almost universally, a Scottish accent is definitely the sexiest accent in the entire world. 100% agree. 100% agree. Do Scottish people A realize that and B agree? And what do Scottish people think is the sexiest accent?

David: 1:17:25

And why do Scottish people take offense to fat bastard and Shrek, or do they love it?

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:31

The thing. So Scotland has a lot of different accents, and some of them are very nice. Some of them, there's a town maybe like 80 miles from where I grew up, and I cannot understand a word they say. Not one word.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:45

Love it.

David: 1:17:46

These like old fishing towns on the east coast, like I feel like that's like Louisiana for us, where it's like that like Cajun-y, Frenchy, redneck-y thing, where you're like, I I I literally have no idea what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:57

Like, was that English? Yeah, yeah. I genuinely don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Gavin: 1:18:02

What is the sex taste accent for Scottish people?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:04

Yeah. I mean, it probably is a Scottish one.

Gavin: 1:18:08

Oh, really? Okay. Showing your prejudice, by the way.

David: 1:18:12

I mean, jerking off staring right into the mirror. I get it. No, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:18

Do you have a webcam in my room?

David: 1:18:19

Yeah, no, oh, I have multiple. Are you kidding me? Um we're already running out of time. I'm so fucking frustrated by this. But anyway, I wanted to ask you something, and it's it's so American of me. But when I went to Scotland and I went everywhere, I, like every American in the world in Europe, fall fall in love with certain areas, and then I decide I'm going to move there and live there someday. A, have I over-romanticized your hometown of Inverness? And B, when are we getting married? Go. No, and when's your flight? Great. Oh so growing up in the first. So so you loved it. Like it was like you you think of it as like it's hard because when you grow up somewhere, you see it in a different way. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:00

And like you grew up there and it was obviously a bit different in like the 90s. And there's not a whole lot for a teenager to do unless you've got a friend who can drive. Sure. So But then that's because back then, like on a Sunday, I had to walk about two miles to the one bus an hour into town. Whereas now that's not the case. So I think now it's that bit easier. Inverness has grown a lot as well. Yeah.

unknown: 1:19:26

Yeah.

David: 1:19:27

And I I was only in the kind of downtown area. I didn't get too far outside. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:31

Yeah. But it's the and you'll have seen, hopefully, it's a great base to go and do things in the areas around it. There's loads to do outside Inverness.

David: 1:19:39

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think a lot of people who go to Scotland go to Edinburgh and then they're done. Or may you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:44

Yeah, and that's like going to DC and saying, I've been to the US and I know exactly what it's all like. Yeah, yeah.

Gavin: 1:19:50

Or Cincinnati, for that matter. And I know that you were gonna counter with questions about um are are you over romanticizing Cincinnati? Yes. Because you're obsessed with it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:58

Yes, you are. We know you are. I mean Skyline Chili.

David: 1:20:02

Is there better food? It's Skyline Chili is such a strange experience. For those of you who have never had it, it is a chili restaurant where they put chili on pasta. Like it's like whatever. Okay. But the chili- You're calling it chili. Yeah, it's it's it's a chili with cinnamon in it. And it it's it's a very strange experience. I can't say it's a bad experience, but it it is it is uncomfortable. It is kind of feels like a waffle house. It's very low end, it's very kind of like dinery, but it's literally like cinnamon chili on pasta. It's a very weird oh, and lots of cheese. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:36

Yeah. We went to this like quite fancy Spanish restaurant, air quotes, doing a lot of work there. And but it was a really fancy place. It was really nice, like really nice wine. And I can't remember what the dish was, but there's something and it had Cincinnati mole on it. And I was like, what is that? And they were like, well, have you been to Skyline? And I was like, I've just taken like three stars off your restaurant right now.

David: 1:21:02

Okay, I have to ask you before our final question, which Gaben will ask you. I want to ask you, how did you find Gate Sharks and why are you our listener? Literally, why are you listening to this stupid show?

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:13

I genuinely cannot remember how I found it. Because it's been I think I maybe joined when you were like three episodes in or something. 3D. I go all the way back. Um I don't know. I guess the algorithm was like, hey, you're a homo. Have some have some homo stuff.

Gavin: 1:21:31

I'm glad we were even registering on an algorithm, though. That's my takeaway from that is like, wow, we we have gay algorithm? Fantastic.

David: 1:21:39

Seemingly and then why did you stick around? Seriously. What why are you sticking around? It can't be for David and I.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:46

I mean, I know like locally two other gay parents. Oh, three, actually. There's a lesbian couple at my daughter's school. They don't I mean lesbians don't count. Sorry.

David: 1:21:55

They don't count.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:55

That's why I didn't count her. Um but like, you know, there's not many. And so it's fun to hear the stories. And I know not all of your guests are gay patents, but it's nice to hear those other stories in a place that also has dick jokes, because some of the other podcasts don't have dick jokes.

Gavin: 1:22:12

Yeah. Come on. This is this is the theory. Do you have any dick jokes to share with us right now by chance? In Gaelic? I wish I did. Oh Gaelic. Just make something up and say it's a Gaelic joke. A get a gay Gaelic dick joke. Uh well, think about that and come back to us. It can be our play out. Um, so uh tell us when was that time that you will never ever forget and you earned your parenting merit badge.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:35

I had so many poop stories to choose from, but I'm gonna go on the theory that all of your other guests will be a poop story. So we're gonna go with the time. Okay. My my daughter had so many ear infections when she was younger. And one time she had four at once. Two in each ear, different bacteria, different antibiotics. Okay, honestly, it was horrendous. Made worse by the fact that at the same time I had a UTI. So I'm in like pain.

David: 1:23:06

So many bottles of antibiotics and uh all over the place labeled with like this is for daddy's dick.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:12

This is for like But so it ends up, you know, I'm in pain, going to the toilet every 20 minutes. I end up sleeping on a mattress on her floor because she's so distressed by all the pain. Meanwhile, like the doctors call me, like, you need to go to the hospital like now because UTIs and men are quite serious, it seems. I had to go and get like a CT scan to check my kidneys and all this. I'm like and yet I'm like, can you give me an hour or so because my daughter's still asleep? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:23:40

Wow. That was a fun, fun weekend. Four ear infections. That is and a UTI. I know that sounds like oh yeah, and a UTI. Oh man.

Gavin: 1:23:49

How do you even isolate four infections at a time? How does that happen?

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:53

I mean, it just does lots of swabs, and they were like, okay, well, these drops can do that one, but not that one. So then we'll give you this antibiotic for that one. I'm like, oh, come on.

Gavin: 1:24:02

That's oh my god. That's epic. We have not heard we have not heard from that. Yeah, that's amazing.

David: 1:24:08

That's a lot. Um, Liam, I cannot thank you enough for a being our listener, our one listener, who has jumped been with us since episode three, evidently. And thank you for demeaning yourself by being on our stupid little podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:22

I like forward to seeing you in Scotland. You can bring the other guy if you want.

Gavin: 1:24:25

I'm there. I'm absolutely there. So, David, you've heard me and listeners heard me yapping away at my solo parenthood for the last month for quite a while, right? And I know you're all tired of it because I I could have made it much more painful. Okay. Anyway, Todd came home last night. And it is great to have him back in the household. Now, he was so thrilled to bring home a special product that he found. He was working in Switzerland for a month. It sounds more glamorous than it was. He was working in Switzerland and he found a bunch of products like little mustards and little syrups and little things. And he said, I have got something that is going to rock your world. And that is my something great today. That something great today is Biscoff creamy cookie butter.

David: 1:25:10

Do you know what this is? I have never tasted it, but I can I basically know what these are.

Gavin: 1:25:15

Biscoff is those cookies that you get in airplanes. Like I have never heard of them. Well, the something great is not only that I'm bringing the something great is that I'm bringing this to you because you can find this shit at Costco. Oh my God. So uh Trod was so thrilled to bring it. And I tasted it, and I'm like, oh my God, this is the most amazing thing I've ever tasted in my entire life. And then he went to Costco this morning, and boy was he pissed when he said that made my suitcase heavier. But my something great today is Biscoff, creamy cookie butter. It will rock your world. You're welcome. Happy all the fucking holidays. And here's to a cookie buttery 2026.

David: 1:26:00

So it's like it's it's like uh Nutella's cousin, right? Yeah. It's kind of that kind of a thing, right?

Gavin: 1:26:05

Yeah, I that that Speculus uh company or or DAF, what's it the waffle company that's um you know what I mean. The Ding Dingles and Waffles, you've seen those pop. Well, trust me, that they exist. And that company must be pissed that they aren't going on a national spending spree like this coffee is.

David: 1:26:22

I also think it's hilarious that you started this something great as if like my husband's wall. And I and I got to hold him in my arms again. And you were like, fuck this guy, he brought cookie butter. And so that is your something great of 2025.

Gavin: 1:26:36

And the something great is that I'm bringing it to YouTube because heads up, everybody needs to go out and stop what you're doing. Pause this podcast before David even tells his something great and go get some Biscoff creamy cookie butter.

David: 1:26:48

Um, so my something great was going to be we had a snow day here in northern New Jersey, and we had it was honestly a perfect day where we went sledding and it was across the street, and the kids were cute, and they weren't assholes, and like even though they had wet clothes, they were still cool about it. And they were just it was just one of those like perfect winter days. But I'm gonna cheat and I'm gonna say my something great, and I hate myself for doing this.

Gavin: 1:27:14

Oh, I can al I feel it already. Yep, okay. Is our listener? Yeah, yeah, okay.

David: 1:27:19

And and listen, we just spent the better part of this past hour listening to some of our listener, and having done this and and and and embarking on year three of this stupid podcast that Gaben and I started, it is wild to me. And I joke about all the time that people listen to the show. But when I see people in the wild, when I get your DMs, when I get your emails, and you say something even a little bit kind, or even better, you're kind of an asshole because you're playing along in the game. Even better. It it warms my heart in a way that my children can't. And so I want to say thank you to you, listener, whether you are straight uh uh or other. Um and uh I I I love doing this as annoying as it is, and we only do it because there's some of you assholes out there who want us to do it. So thank you. Thank you to our listener that we just interviewed. You guys are amazing. Um, but thank you out there, listener, for for for joining us on this stupid thing. We're gonna come back at you next year again.

Gavin: 1:28:18

Same tired bullshit, shoveling the same bullshit and and making the same mistakes and but generally entertaining ourselves. And so it's all about us. Wow, that was I turned that one, didn't I?

David: 1:28:32

And that is our final show of 2025. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.

Gavin: 1:28:41

Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFm VaughnEverywhere, and Gavin is at Gavin Lodge rubbing cookie butter all over his body. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we'll make it about ourselves next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.