Nikkei beginnings: Japanese immigrant history with Herb Tanimoto

Host Madeline Hamaguchi is joined by Sacramento-based author and historian Herb Tanimoto to explore the journey of the first Japanese immigrants to the United States and the establishment of their colony in the California foothills, now known as the Wakamatsu Tea and Silk Farm. We brush up on our terminology, learn about a samurai war, and discuss Herb's historical fiction novel Keiko's Kimono.

Proceeds from purchases of Keiko's Kimono by Herb Tanimoto are donated to American River Conservancy to benefit Wakamatsu Tea and Silk Farm, Placerville, CA. Buy it on Amazon here: https://a.co/d/iBbC849

Review the terminology covered in this episode, explore links to curated resources, and more at vacancyarts.org

Creative and Production team members are Madeline Hamaguchi, Evan Hamaguchi, Gia Battista, Tom Abruzzo, and Rob Salas.

Theme song by Alex Chong
Sound editing and stings by Gia Battista

The Mochi Project is made possible through an Impact Projects grant from California Arts Council.

Transcript

THE MOCHI PROJECT PODCAST

Episode 1

Nikkei Beginnings: Japanese Immigrant History with Herb Tanimoto

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Hello and welcome to The Mochi Project Podcast. In this series, we dive into Japanese American culture and history through interviews with real people, artists, historians, and scientists, all of whom identify as part of the Japanese American community, also known as the Nikkei community. I am your host, Madeline Hamaguchi. I am Yonsei - fourth generation descendant of Japanese immigrants. I grew up in Davis, California, and have lived and worked up and down the West Coast. And I am an artist, a theatre maker and a storyteller. I started this podcast because I have questions…questions about why I sometimes feel out of place in my American community, and out of touch with my Nikkei identity, I have questions about how other young Japanese Americans navigate our blended culture and what they envision for their own futures. And I have questions about how we can reclaim our history together, weave joy into our hereditary narratives, and celebrate the unique ethnic spaces that we represent. In each episode of this podcast, I get to chat with guests that helped me find some answers. We talk about fun stuff like music, food, history, and art. And we talk about some hard stuff and ask hard questions like, have we lived up to what our ancestors that immigrated here envision for us when they arrived? And how are we dealing with that pressure? And just as importantly, how do new generations of Japanese Americans see themselves contributing to the parts of our cultural story that haven't been written yet? For our very first episode, we thought it would be good to start from the beginning and to acknowledge our roots. So we'll be talking about the Wakamatsu tea and silk farm in Placerville, California, the very first Japanese immigrant colony in the United States. The Wakamatsu tea and silk form was established in 1869 in Placerville, California which is just outside of Sacramento. As I mentioned before, it was the first colony of Japanese immigrants in the mainland us now, it's a registered historical landmark with the state of California and its former site is preserved by the American River Conservancy. And according to their website, the organization manages the property as a pilgrimage site, outdoor learning campus, event venue, and working farm. We'll also put their website link in the episode description so you can check their website out to and you can also arrange visits to see the site in person visit some important landmarks like the grave of the first Japanese woman to be buried in American soil.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Last year, I met Emily Masuda she is a creative writing MFA student at UC Davis. And she had been researching Japanese American history for a book that she's writing and we got to sharing our heritage with each other and she told me about Wakamatsu tea and silk farm which I had never heard about before she mentioned it. So she referred me to an expert on the subject, Herb Tanimoto and his historical fiction novel Keiko's Kimono.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Herb Tanimoto is an author, historian, and a volunteer tour guide at the preserved historical site that marks what remains of Wakamatsu farm, I had the pleasure of interviewing herb over zoom to learn more about this much lesser known period of Japanese American history. Now, I invite you to join her and myself as we share personal stories, build a timeline around Wakamatsu farm and tear into this deep trap of our ethnic history.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

So Herb, you're third generation and your family ... one of your sides came from Hiroshima area, both sides both sides both sides. Interesting. And largely potentially, because of this mass exodus from, from Japan around like 1900 or so.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, there was some kind of problem in Japan in that area at that time, I think. Yeah. I don't know if it's agricultural or what happened the weather was exactly it was

Madeline Hamaguchi  

interesting.

Herb Tanimoto 

and a lot of people came from Hiroshima during that time. And Wakayama was another place where a lot of people came in that time. So I think both are maybe from agricultural areas.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I've after after doing some digging into my dad's side, I found out that there's some pretty strong ties to the soy sauce. industry in general, the founding potentially of soy sauce lies somewhere in Hamaguchi family, which is pretty fascinating. But it That does sound in general, like not necessarily just those particular prefectures, but it's also seems all around Japan, there was this this mass movement towards the mainland US and Hawaii. Yeah, yeah. And if we did your parents grew up in Hawaii as well?

Herb Tanimoto 

No, they're no, they came from actually, they're both born in America. My mom was born near Marysville. My dad was born in Cosumnes, which is near Sacramento.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. Oh, very cool. Okay, so that's, that's both are actually pretty Northern California and local. Yeah. But do you have any siblings?

Herb Tanimoto 

I got one. One sister. Oh, okay. Okay,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

so you've had someone to sort of go go through this history with a little bit is she interested been interested in this history as well?

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, we just don't get together that much.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Just my brother is a all the way across the country right now he's in Brooklyn. So we have we have yet to see I think actually discuss it all our our history and our backgrounds. So it'd be interesting when we get there. Um, but anyway, back to I can't help but think you know, just sort of looking at you know, where you're so you know, where your family's from and everything and it sounds like your the Sacramento area is pretty endemic to your to your your own personal family story. And even after internment, they came back.

Herb Tanimoto 

So my grandfather settled in Gridley, Gridley, California had a farm, peach farm. Although I think they were into rice in the beginning, there wasn't an early rice farmers. And then so that's from my that's where my dad grew up in the Gridley area. Interesting.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Okay. That's is that slightly south? Is that in Central?

Herb Tanimoto 

Well, it's North Yuba City, North Yuba City. Okay. Okay. City in Chico.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Still working on my California geography

Herb Tanimoto 

so that's where I think that's where he was when he was a "Kibei". Is that right? He got sent back to Japan as a as an adolescent. Oh, by his parents to learn Japanese culture.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Oh, I know you're talking about Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Herb Tanimoto 

A lot of Japanese.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Kibei. Kibei. Oh, very cool.

Music  

Music: "We're not so sure. We're not so sure. We're not sure what that means."

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Kibei refers specifically to a US born Child of Japanese immigrants who came here before World War Two, and this child would have been sent back to Japan for their education and then returned to America. They faced a lot of discrimination because they never really fit in culturally in either country.

Herb Tanimoto 

So, and then you came back. And then World War Two started.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, well, and it was World War Two, also that in time of internment was really hard on Kibei. I've heard because of their

Herb Tanimoto 

struggle. Yeah. cultural ties. Yeah, yeah. It was tough. So, I don't know if you want to hear the story of my

Herb Tanimoto 

my father and his brothers. So there were really two sisters. So they got sent. Most of them got sent to Tolay Lake. Oh, mom's was there. But my dad was already in the US Army. Just before just before Pearl Harbor. He wasn't a US Army already. So he became valuable to to the to the army be as an interpreter because he was Kibei. So he knew Japanese language, as well as English. Oh, cool. Oh, wow. Very important to to the United States at that time. Yeah. You guys said to the military intelligence school.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Wow, he was really deep in there.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. And then he went to fight in the Pacific. So he was he was involved in the Pacific theater or the war, Okinawan side panel mostly.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. And it's it did it sounds like he survived the war, too.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. So you got to SilverStar Wow, Saipan. Wow. So he was did a lot of translating work, interviewing soldiers captured soldiers. And he got his silver star when he went into a cave to rescue some civilians and shoot his way out of the cave in Saipan... we never talked about that.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Now Wow, that wow, that's amazing. Wow.

Herb Tanimoto 

But his it caused a friction with his brothers because the rest of them were in camp.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

It was actually my next question was was How was that received back

Herb Tanimoto 

They were... my uncle's... his brothers? Were actually what they call the No, no boys. Yeah. They were. They oppose that signing the oath of allegiance to the US.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Let's discuss no no boys. It's a colloquial term from the period of Japanese American internment. In February 1942. Soon after the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 which started the internment camps. And about a year and a half later, the government started getting serious about sifting the disloyal out of the loyal people already in the camps, and they issued a questionnaire to determine that the last two questions, 27 and 28, were the main loyalty deciding factors of the survey. To paraphrase question 27 asked, Will you fight for the US in the armed forces if drafted and 28 asked, will use swear unqualified allegiance to the US and renounce any allegiance to the Emperor of Japan? If you said yes to both you were categorized as loyal. And if you said no and no, then that puts you in the disloyal camp. Pun intended. The no no's were scrutinized more intensely and often sent to the more prison like out of the incarceration centers. There's a lot more to discuss regarding no no boys because the impact of their no no answers didn't end once they were sifted out. So I would definitely recommend reading more about it if you're interested. And if you are looking for some informative fiction about it, there is a novel called No No Boy by John Okada, originally published in 1957, but recently republished and has been gaining now notoriety since then, the book follows a young man who answers no to both loyalty questions and is sent to prison for refusing military service, then has to navigate hostility from his family and discrimination from this, his community at large as he tries to reenter society when the war ends, it's pretty well known as a book. So it's available in most major bookstores and probably in your smaller local bookstores to. Check it out.

Herb Tanimoto 

And so they got segregated out. So they stayed in Tule Lake in segregated quarters while my mom was transferred to Colorado... Amache. And my dad went to the army. And I think there was some friction because, you know, they opposed my uncles were very much opposed. The, I guess, the war and incarceration, whereas my dad was actually fighting against Japan. So that might've caused some friction, I think. Yeah, absolutely.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

There's a That's fascinating. There's a Have you heard of the musical called Allegiance? On?

Herb Tanimoto 

I have? That's George Takei. So

Madeline Hamaguchi  

huh? Yeah. That's one of the controversies that's discussed in that musical. And it's a saw that though you saw it?

Herb Tanimoto 

I believe I did.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. I know how to it was, it was kind of a moment in Sacramento. I remember going to see that with my mom. And it was like, it's like Japanese American homecoming. I've never seen so many black haired people in one room to see the same, same thing. But there was a Fathom Events, movie showing a bit, but that is one of the things that they they brought up. And I was always curious about how that, you know, what kind of other families were dealing with that because, yeah, I believe, um, my mom's side had some of the No No boys. But because of some some medical exclusions, her dad could not participate in any war, fighting activity, or Army. Army action. So he was, I think he may have been sent to some work camps, but I know that he got a work permit to be outside of the camp and work in near the Canadian border in Washington and Idaho. But my dad's side, my grandpa and his brothers were in the 442nd. And, yeah, when we mentioned the 442, we're talking about the US Army's legendary 442nd Regimental Combat Team from World War Two. According to the gopher broke National Education Center, the 442 was a racially segregated unit of Japanese Americans from Hawaii and the mainland, many of whom came from America's concentration camps, activated in February 1943. The 442 fought in Italy, France, and Germany. And together with the 100th Infantry Battalion, the 442 is the most decorated unit in US military history for its size and length of service. Go for broke was the motto of the 442. It was derived from a gambler, slang used in Hawaii, which meant that the player was risking it all in one effort to win big putting everything on the line. And it was a very suitable motto, when you think about the fact that the 442 was primarily made up of Nisei, they needed to put everything on the line when they fought because they needed to win two wars, the war against the Germans in Europe and the war against racial prejudice in America. And

Herb Tanimoto 

they came back. They came back. Yeah, it's mostly lucky to come back. Yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I mean, yeah, not fully unscathed. My grandpa had a bad heart and a knee injury. Potentially. I think the knee was caused by the war and some sort of shrapnel I think, and then His heart problem probably didn't help. But yeah, they were lucky enough to come back from the war. And from the they were I think my my grandma on that side where it was in Chicago, I think she was outside of the area that was required to go to internment camps, but the rest of the Hamaguchis and her side is the Nishimine. And they were in Gila River for for a while. And then yeah, but I do know that my mom's side potentially had had a lot harder of a camp experience. Because of their their stay at Tule Lake.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, yeah. I don't know what you want to keep talking about internment or

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I know, we really gonna flow their expertise,

Herb Tanimoto 

area interest is actually before them, you know?

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. And that's actually, you know, I did have a question there about how you found that area of interest. What really drew you to that? It's because even among, you know, a lot of Sansei that I've talked to it's, it's the area of interest really is internment. And it's hard to find people that want to look into, you know, these these origins that especially the kind that you talked about in your book.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. I've always been interested in history. So Western history in the United States, you know, I go, I'm a photographer too. So I, in my earlier days, I took a tour, several tours to old ghost towns, mining camps and old cemeteries. And so I was very much into western Western history. And then, so then Wakamatsu came up. It just happened to be near where I live in. I live in Cool, California, only about 30 minutes away from me. And I was already a member of this organization, American River Conservancy that bought the Wakamatsu farm, from the original pioneer family, the Bergkamp family. And it's just sort of fell into my lap. And then they started wanting people to do tours for them. And to farm in there, so I did. I really dove into the history, Japanese American history during that time period, early Japanese American history from the time sailors were rescued, and came to America in 18, early 1800s to the Wakamatsu colony. And that also drove me to try to understand what was happening in Japan at that time. Why did they come? What was happening in Japan to cause them to come? So I studied that too. And it was over a period of kind of began this and we started our tours in 2010. So around that time period, I started really getting into this early Japanese American history and realize that not too many people know about it.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, you're saying that that Keiko's Kimono is the first novel that you've ever written and you self published it? To raise funds for Wakamatsu farm.

Herb Tanimoto 

You Yeah, all the proceeds go to to the Wakamatsu farm. And it's a historic fiction. So it's based on real things. Some real, mostly real happenings. And of course, the real place to Wakamatsu Farm, and as much as possible sticking to historic accuracy. But of course, the colonists were only here a couple of years, and they left really very little trace of what they did. There is no written nobody wrote about it. No journalists that we know of. So there's a lot of places where I had kind of ability to use imagination. So so that's what I did to fill in and make it more interesting I think

Madeline Hamaguchi  

it sounds like you you did use quite a lot of like, you know, real facts, you know, to support this which is a huge reason, you know, come in combination with your the style of your dialogue and the characterization of the of your of the different characters, but specifically the, the way that you have also elevated the kami aspect, that kami theme within the book, as you know to give voice to the doll, who is Keiko. The concept of kami comes from Japan's most ancient religion, Shinto. Over the last couple 1000 years the concept has changed a lot with the introduction of Buddhism and Western religions and is therefore known, but doesn't have a single definition that everybody fully agrees on. But in general, Kami refers to all the spirits and essences of existence. Kami exists in natural forces, beings, objects, deities, and it's often used to describe the soul of a person that can travel between a spirit world and an earthly world. Herb gives a more active definition in Keiko's Kimono Kami is the spirit that is in everything a rock can have Kami if you throw a rock and injure someone that is due to the Kami of the rock added to the Kami of your own wickedness. The sun had Kami, a storm has Kami, a river and ocean, a mountain, the smallest bacteria or grain of sand to the tiniest flickering star in the night sky has Kami. How did you research this? I think is my question is how did you research this? If you're, you know, if the the farm itself didn't leave a lot of traces behind and how did you learn about some of these concrete facts about this journey? Because it is extremely elaborate.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, so some things I've made up to fit in, like Dr. Matsumoto. So we believe there was a physician at the Wakamatsu farm, that's what newspapers in the 30s say there was who could cure just about anything with herbal remedies. So I kind of enlarged him, made him a very central person in the novel. And the fact he gets killed, you know, we know that's, that's my imagination, but that just fit with what I was trying to say. So I had him killed. But we really don't know what happened to Dr. Matsumoto. So things like that. I were I would help the story line. I made some things up. Okei san had some supernormal powers have been able to foretell things and, of course being able to talk to to the doll.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Right, right. Yeah. It sounds like it's a a nod to the spiritual culture in general of, you know, Japanese culture. That's

Herb Tanimoto 

interesting. You mentioned a Kami. Yeah. Because I was studying Shinto, and the Kami part of the Shinto. A while for a while because we have this it's called a Kami dana, Kami dana. It's a miniature shrine, for homes, a Shinto shrine. So we were donated one of those. So this past, we had a tour this past week, the Presbyterian Church of Sacramento, which is mostly Japanese, are about 30 of them. So I put out the Kami dana, with explanations to show that part of the Shinto which they probably the colonists probably probably had, you know, That belief back then. A Shinto is very, very ancient belief in Japan.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

It's more ancient than Buddhism. Is that true?

Herb Tanimoto 

It came to Japan. I think it was there. There already when when Buddha Buddhism started in Japan, I think Shinto was already there in Japan.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Wow. So it okay. Then the homegrown

Herb Tanimoto 

belief system, I guess?

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems it feels extremely appropriate for homesteaders essentially in new colonists to bring some ancient roots with them. Like that

Herb Tanimoto 

as well. Yeah. So.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

So that that actually brings me to one of my questions, that is one that kind of guides this podcast journey as a whole for the entire Mochi podcast is about one of these, you know, beliefs, life, habits, behaviors and values. What are these, you know, that were established in Japan brought over by these colonists and used by them, especially in your book, you know, excuse me? Which of them do you still see as part of Japanese American culture today? And what? Why do you think some of these traditions have stayed around? Why do you think they remain fluid? I mean, we see, you know, festivals and food culture, especially food ceremonies, and religion, even the way that families interact with each other. It's still you can still trace these lines back to the beliefs that were, you know, part of the lives of these original colonists. Why do you think that they've stuck around?

Herb Tanimoto 

So, you know, they were, there were some Samurai with the Wakamatsu bar farm. So they brought their Samurai code of honor, I guess. And I think the rest of the colonists probably shared in a lot of that to perseverance, I think very important. And getting the job done. Those are all samurai codes and also just in general with the Japanese people I think especially the pioneers who came over. They were after a new life and they were going to persevere no matter what. And hold on to their beliefs as much as they could. The we have a there's one of the Samurai codes of honor is this Kanji symbol Gi: G.I., which actually is on a plaque on a monument at Wakamatsu farm contingent from Aizu Wakamatsu brought it during our 150 year festival. And so, because they wanted us to have this kind of Samurai code of honor Gi, which is doing whatever what is right. Righteousness is how the English interpretation of it is, although there might be different kind of ways to interpret it in Japan, but it's one of the Bushido codes of honor doing whatever what is right and making sacrifices to to do that to do whatever is right. So that's kind of like duty, I guess. Yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah, by duty. That's, you know, that's that's the right thing to do to to accomplish your duty. Complete your duty. Yeah, excellent. Wakamatsu colonists I think. Did that's Okei san did because they It was her duty to come to America because her Lord Matsudaira and John Henry Schnell and her family wanted to wanted her to come to America to help the Wakamatsu farms so so she came because I was or duty and Matsunosuke, a Samurai, after everybody had left he continued living on the farm and working on a farm for another 30 years. And I think that's because he felt that was his duty to complete the task he was given

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, it sounds like it accepting responsibility for the impact that you make in the world.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, so that Yeah. But doing you know what, what was assigned to you and making sure you carry that out?

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Probably part of the reason why remnants of the farm still stand today.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, Matsunosuke, he put up Okei san's monument and stone marker. And because of that, we know about her grave today, otherwise, it would have been lost. So maybe he felt that was his? The way he felt he should honor Okei san was to make sure she was not forgotten.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

In what ways do you think the colonists are able to, you know, achieve their their goal of establishing a home, you know, across the sea from Japan? And do you think that Wakamatsu farm lived up to? Or fell short of their aspirations? And were they how far in the future do you think these colonists were thinking? When they established the farm,

Herb Tanimoto 

of course, they were thinking of a permanent home in America. I think that's why, why they came, wasn't like the Chinese who are going to go make some money and, and send some home and then go home themselves. To live in China. They were here to stay. And so they, they try, I think they they tried as best as they could, there were situations beyond their control, the weather, the climate. And, and Schnell just couldn't pay off what he owed, when everything died, all his crops died. And I imagine they, they, they probably felt they did the best they could and it just wasn't to be. Right, right.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yet, it does. Remnants of it do still stand up today. And actually, I realized that we've been talking about Wakamatsu Farm without, you know, really giving some verbal context to it. And I've done you know, my, my, a little bit of research on it by talking to a few people and looking at the online resources, but Do you can you give us a you know, a sort of summary of what is Wakamatsu Farm.

Herb Tanimoto 

Well, so I it's hard to summarize very much, you know, they came because they have lost the civil war in Japan the Boshin war. It was the last great civil war in Japan. And that was the war that established the Meiji government. And so that was actually the beginning of modern Japan and put an end to the Shogun rule for for the past 250 years. So where Japan was in isolation from the rest of the world. So Meiji Restoration was when modern Japan you again. So it was in that light that these colonists came over as refugees from that civil war and hoping to reestablish some remnants of that kind of life that they were used to here in America. I think that was their plan. And so John Henry Schnell was the person who was going to do this with money from Lord Matsudaira of Aizu. Wakamatsu.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Okay, so remember the bushing war, one of the ill fated shoguns main supporters was Lord Matsudaira of Aizu, where the Wakamatsu colonists originally departed from. He hired John Henry Schnell to teach his troops how to use guns and cannons. Schnell was a Prussian officer, arms dealer, and one of the rare Westerners who had become a samurai history tells us that Matsudaira and Schnell lost the war along with the rest of the Shoguns supporters, but in an attempt to make the best of a bad situation. Matsudaira gave Schnell seed money about $5,000 to start a samurai colony in California, which became the Wakamatsu tea and silk farm.

Herb Tanimoto 

So they brought over millions Tea seeds they brought over 1000s of mulberry trees, Silkworms and, and all kinds of agricultural products. Sesame plants, oranges, rice, persimmons, the I think the brought over the first persimmons to America is brought over by the Wakamatsu colonists. Oh, wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

What so Okay, so now I have a question that about, how did they get all of that over here? Because I know that they had such a long journey on the boat over themselves. Did they take all of that with them on the same trip? Or did they send people ahead of time?

Herb Tanimoto 

How did that actually they came in three separate boats that we know of three separate ships at three different times. And the first group came in late May of 1869. And that was mostly the John Henry Schnell and the samurai and the people to help get get started. Get the colony started. Then the following groups were the workers because they needed more workers so Schnell sent word back to Japan that he needed more workers for his farm. So the second and third group were were workers and then the third group was mostly tea plants. A lot of tea plants a couple 100,000 Tea plants he he sent over. Wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

And that's it so and and so this farm with so in the way that it's on, it says online, it says it's the Wakamatsu silk farm and tea and silk farm. Okay. And that was largely it sounds like it was largely established, though over over a period of time. But did they it seemed like they had a plan of what they would plant when they arrived.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. When they arrived, they immediately planted the Tea seeds because it would take a while for them to grow. So that was the first thing they did. And and I imagine they planted it's the mulberry trees. Course a silk business would've taken a little longer to get going? I think it was a tea business. They wanted to get started right away. But the first group they planted wasn't very successful, but so Schnell sent back for actually the seeds. Not many of them grew. So he sent back for for one or two year old tea plants. And so he got actually a couple of 100,000 of them sent sent to the farm in 1870. So and then he planted those as soon as they arrived early in 1870 Oh, wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Really in 1870 Okay, so that brings me to questions about the The overall climate in the US at the time, political climate and social climate having the year 1870 in mind is that during the time period of the any restrictions on Chinese immigration and also, like, what what were the race relations? Like, you know, I have a lot of questions about how things like the Chinese Exclusion Act and the gentleman's agreement affected. You know, that sentiments, you know, interracial sentiments between Chinese and Japanese immigrants, along with Asian immigrants in general. And the, you know, what, people that were already here,

Herb Tanimoto 

you know, of course, 1870 There weren't very many Japanese in the United States. The 1870 census listed 55...55 Japanese in the United States. Of those 22 were the Wakamatsu colonists. And the rest were probably students or shipwrecked sailors who decided to stay in the United States. So there weren't enough Japanese actually to present a problem, I think to Americans, they weren't competing really, with anything. Early, it wasn't until later that the exclusion acts and and things against the Chinese, which happened right from the Gold Rush, I think, you know, the Chinese were discriminated against, but wasn't until then 1883 when the Exclusion Act, Chinese Exclusion Act came about. And of course, there was, you know, people tend to look at Japanese and see sometimes see Chinese, you know, they can't tell the difference sometimes. 

Madeline Hamaguchi  

In the early-to-mid 1800’s Chinese immigrants became an indispensable part of labor workforces, including some of the teams that built the essential transcontinental railroads. Inversely, anti-Chinese sentiment grew due to widespread beliefs that the immigrant workers were a threat to both white labor and the purity of the white race. In response, a series of race and labor limitations were written into law, including the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882.   The Act outlawed the immigration of Chinese laborers while allowing entry of educated individuals, and it denied naturalization rights to all Chinese immigrants. It served as a foundational example of government-mandated racism and established a precedent for race- and class- based immigration laws in the future.  The Wakamatsu colonists established themselves in California about a decade before the Chinese Exclusion Act was written but, as Herb mentions, they were often mistaken for Chinese immigrants, and therefore were subjected to racism and de-facto restrictions.  

Herb Tanimoto 

And there is a story of when one of the Wakamatsu groups came. It might have even been the first one they were in Placerville, looking around to try to find their way to the Wakamatsu farm. And they had stories they had problems trying to find a hotel because no one would would sell them, give them hotel rooms because feeling I guess was sort of they were like the Chinese. It wasn't until John Henry Schnell came, came back that he rounded them up and took them to the Wakamatsu farm. But as part of the Wakamatsu farm, there probably wasn't much discrimination because of John Henry Schnell who was their vocal leader, and knew all the wealthy and important people in California, in Northern California anyway. And so he was treated with respect and through that, I think the colonists were treated with respect. There is one incident incident where you're mentioning how the Chinese and the Japanese might have interacted back then. It's kind of hard to determine that, but thinking back that they were both immigrants, probably on the lowest lower rungs of society, as far as white people were concerned that they might have there might have been pressured to show their superior superior to one group or another, all the early groups, you know, the Mexicans and or the Indians, Native Americans, Argentinians, and all the people who were here. There might have been kind of like competition There's one story where, where someone saw the Samurai chasing some Chinese through Coloma. And so, no, it's hard to say, you know why. But there might have been some competition between between groups, just because they were they wanted to prove themselves. Mm hmm.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Interesting. It's, it's kind of a pretty intense survival of the fittest sort of mindset. I guess, if I asked the question about, you know, these these Chinese immigrants versus Japanese immigrants,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

because of, you know, the sentiment that I noticed as a kid floating around, that I didn't feel any active racism between, you know, the people of either culture or

Madeline Hamaguchi  

any other Asian culture specifically, in general, there was, you know, respect and appreciation. But I did get the sense and heard stories of the since, since the beginning of these immigrant journeys, sort of colliding, that Chinese immigrants and Japanese immigrants have not gotten along. And so I was just curious to see, you know, what, in terms of what you've researched, what you have had found about that, but it does sound like it's hard to interpret,

Herb Tanimoto 

you know, well, like in San Francisco's Chinatown. That was also where a lot of most of the Japanese were in Chinatown, back then, around 1900. So it was kind of a mishmash show of Asians in general in Chinatown. And I imagine the the, either begrudgingly got along or, you know, got along because they have to.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, and well, and I noticed that you touched on that too, and Keiko's Kimono when the John Henry Schnell's party arrives to San Francisco, and they're wandering around, trying to find find their way through, you know, groups of different kinds of people, including Chinese immigrant workers and communities there along with, you know, groups of just the people that had already been in San Francisco confused about these, these new kinds of Asian immigrants walking around.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. And then the Emperor Norton thing there. Yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

So can you tell me a little bit more about Emperor Norton, we covered it a little last time, but it's the it sounds like he was Emperor Norton existed as a real person. And he kind of gave him a voice in this novel.

Herb Tanimoto 

He was quite a character from all my readings. There's kind of a Emperor Norton's Appreciation Society, still in San Francisco today. So and they have an annual meeting at his gravesite in Colma cemetery. He's buried in Colma cemetery. And I think, in general, he was kind of crazy, but crazy in a way that people appreciated, I guess, he saw a guy who, making all these proclamations and railing against the government. 

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Emperor Norton is a real-life historical figure who makes a small cameo in Herb’s story. His  name was Joshua Abraham Norton. He was born in 1818 in London but grew up mostly in South Africa. He came to San Francisco as a young man, gained and lost a few fortunes, and then suffered some sort of sudden mental health decline. At age 41, he reappeared in society via the evening newspaper in SF when he wrote a series of personal announcements declaring himself “Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico”. I guess he wanted to fill a niche. During his self-proclaimed reign as Emperor he was poor, but was supported by his friends, kind to his neighbors, and kept up an active social life. He was a vocal proponent of racial tolerance and fair rights, which would have been extremely progressive ideas for his time. He died in 1880. Ten thousand people attended his funeral. He’s still celebrated today as a historical mascot of SF and the Bay Area.  

Herb Tanimoto 

And and, basically, he was harmless. And but I think he also had a soft spot for the downtrodden from my readings, and he did to help Chinese people when he could. And there was that one incidence where he story who knows if it was true that he read the Lord's Prayer to to kind of disarm this vigilante group who were trying to beat up on these Chinese? So he, yeah, he was a real person.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

That's pretty cool. And, you know, put, imagining a intersection between these, you know, characters that we're following, and this, this amazing historical figure Um So as you're talking my brain sort of going back to this idea of you know, me, multiple minorities fighting for, you know, their own survival, essentially their own relevance in American society and figuring out that, that status quo. And it brings me to this quote that I really loved in your book. And it was on page 46. When Schnell's wife asks him what the people are like in California, and he says, hardworking, I suppose, like the people of Japan, they don't have traditions that we do, they don't think as much about their ancestors, where they came from is not as important to them as where they want to go. And she replies This is sad. Now, the ancestors ground new to the world and give you purpose to life, how can they know where to go, when they cannot remember where they have been? And it in a lot of ways, I see that quote, as a crux of the complex discussion around assimilation. And because you know, purpose in one's life is defined by one's value system, but your value if your values have to adjust to survive in this new world, does that mean that your purpose in life has to adjust as well? You know, what did what do you think about that? And, you know, do you think that these immigrants and other eases from then on, were able to save or salvage this purpose in life they arrived with while surviving, you know, while assimilating with their ways of life.

Herb Tanimoto 

They probably tried as hard as they could, but they were very, very busy. They had a lot of hard work to do mostly backbreaking kinds of labor. So first in Hawaii, in the sugarcane fields, and then when they came to the US and in agriculture in all the backbreaking work, picking fruit and field work and all that they had to do, and raising a family so that they had a lot to do while trying to maintain their cultural identity I think so I don't know if you can say they succeeded or not. Because I was able to, you know, when I was growing up, I, I went to Saturday school and it didn't really mean much to me trying to learn the Japanese language or the Japanese culture. It wasn't until actually until I got the Wakamatsu farm came up in 2008 2010 when it when the ARC bought it that I realized that I really needed to look back into my Japanese culture and study it a lot more. And so it's been kind of a crash course since then. And along the way, I've met people associated with the Wakamatsu arm who are more deeply into Japanese culture and they've helped me quite a bit to to try and to catch up to where where I should have been as I think it's harder for the newer generations now you know, there's so much more removed to them. I guess internment camp is is as far back in the past is the Wakamatsu form is for me is something that is hard to understand. I think.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, that's an as really interesting observation. The that is true that it's almost like

Madeline Hamaguchi  

in some ways I I've run into conversations, you know, especially and I actually don't know that many Japanese American people, but for example, you know, I went through the exhibits at the Japanese American National Museum and the tour guides there are really great, but one of the ways that one of the conversations was started out with me was, you know, do you what what do you know about, you know, internment camps and Japanese culture. And so that sort of comes first in the conversation. It's almost like a ticket in the door. It's like, you know, how, how, how far removed? Are you from the, you know, from from your, your Issei ancestor? And where are they in the camps? You know, and that it, it's part of also a guiding force behind this Mochi podcast, because in a lot of ways that that is the I think, also, what's not taught in schools is that that is a launching point for really modern Japanese American culture.

Herb Tanimoto 

We've been in communication at American River Conservancy, with the National Japanese American National Museum in LA. And so we're hoping they're going to put a plan is, we've discussed with our curators, they're going to have a display about the Wakamatsu farm there in the near future. Cool. So, hopefully, to tell people the story before internment, you know, because there is a story before internet,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

there absolutely is. Yeah, and it's I think, you know, we were talking about last time, but the reason that I'm, I, I'm, you know, I'm so glad that you could come talk to me, you know, today is because the slice of history that you've focused on and really delved into and in your novel and in your, in your life as a historian, it's, this is the essential snapshot of where I feel Japanese American culture grew from, this is the seedling, you know, and if we can have a better understanding of this, it can help us understand how to reevaluate where we are now, you know, within our, our social location or our socio political location.

Herb Tanimoto 

You know, I wish someone a Japanese American, probably writer, novelist would write a story like Caicos kimono, only maybe a little bit like 20 years after Wakamatsu farm. 1890 1900 So when a lot of Japanese began coming to America, with this dream, you know, into agriculture, like my dad, came or my grandfather came after he got tired of the backbreaking sugar cane work in Hawaii, him and his wife came to California. He got involved in the hot fields in Consumnes these south of Sacramento area and did work over there initially. So and then, he was able to buy a farm, ultimately in Gridley, California and raise peaches, first, rice and then peaches. But, yeah, that the agricultural part is something that's not really written about what the Japanese of that time period went through, to try to establish themselves because that was also a period of discrimination against Japanese too... 19 1920s I think discrimination gradually grew, I think during that time period, for the Asian land laws and a lot of things 1924 I think

Herb Tanimoto 

so there's a lot of restrictions being placed on the Japanese at that time period, while they were trying to trying to make to survive and make a living in America. 

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Starting in the mid-1800’s, western states began barring non-white and non-black peoples from owning land or obtaining US citizenship. California passed its own version in 1913, which was way after the Wakamatsu colony existed. But, as Herb mentioned, these laws did affect Japanese immigrants later, particularly those who wanted to participate in the booming farming industry in California. These laws intensified over the next few decades, especially during WWII when fear of people of Japanese descent reached a peak. Several Supreme Court cases and many years later, in 1952, laws that forbade any immigrants from owning land were finally ruled unconstitutional. 

Herb Tanimoto 

so they were able to get through all that somehow. And then World War Two, of course, then happened that was kind of a later thing. They already had a lot of on their plates to do a lot of discrimination before World War Two.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Interesting It was, uh, yeah, I was aware of the, the, that there was some

Madeline Hamaguchi  

animosity, you know, towards Japanese immigrants around that time just because of the influx, but did you... Have you come across materials that? Well, I guess I guess I mean, I guess the Asian land laws themselves were probably formed out of that. But I guess you know, how have you come across more materials that talk about how the, how Japanese immigrants reacted to that. Barring that racism

Herb Tanimoto 

My impression is to grin and bear it I think, is their attitude of my father and I think I think most Nissei, Issei probably is how they handled it.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Did your family were they able to find that Japanese American community to live in be supported by I've noticed that too, among a lot of Nisseis that they they they grew up in an environment that was that was thickly populated with other Japanese American families.

Herb Tanimoto 

Like Florin area in Sacramento is kind of a big area around here. So I think my dad spent a lot of time around there in Sacramento. My mom was, was born in Marysville, there was a little bit of a Japanese community in Marysville. It was a big Chinese community, but within that there was a Japanese community. So

Madeline Hamaguchi  

that makes sense and and actually too you as you're speaking. And it reminds me of the other observation about these communities is that they are largely around farmland. I mean, California's environment is great for that. But in terms of, you know, connecting this back to culture, I've had this question for a long time, it's is trying to understand how and why Japanese culture is so.... I mean, by the time they were established as farmers, you know, it was a necessity, but is is agricultural, aptitude, farming aptitude and interest in farming, is that something that is was brought by Japanese immigrants as a, as something that is part of their religion or culture or, you know, especially from the time period, you know, before 1920 That you've studied, is that something that is endemic to the beginnings of, I think it's immigrants

Madeline Hamaguchi  

more, the area that a lot of these Japanese came from, I think, like Wakayama a lot a lot of people came from Wakayama, and my understanding is there's so kind of like farmlands, maybe a little bit out  altitude But some a lot of farming in that area. And a lot of people came from Hiroshima like my parents. And I've never quite found out if they had a background in agriculture. I'm not I never quite learned if they did or not. But my impression is a lot of them knew about agriculture anyway, and maybe that's how they gravitated towards that, in addition to it being the easiest job to get. So probably a combination you know of those two things. That's where jobs were plentiful and you didn't really have to have a skill. 

Herb Tanimoto 

One thing I wanted to mention is El Dorado County, where the Wakamatsu farm was. Right. So right now El Dorado County really has hardly any Japanese. In the county, very, very few Japanese. In El Dorado County, I I can't recall very many, maybe a couple that I've met in El Dorado County. But back in 1880s 1890s, there were a lot of Japanese what you would call truck farmers what they called truck farmers. So what they would do is lease land on different ranches in the county. And they would grow crops, citrus and whatever else strawberries or whatever else. And then they would market by truck, they would market these products. So a lot of Japanese families got their start in Eldorado County. But the world war two kind of promoted the Exodus. I guess there's so much discrimination that ultimately Japanese were pretty much driven out of El Dorado County

Madeline Hamaguchi  

where did they go?

Herb Tanimoto 

Sacramento, Sacramento Area Sacramento Valley. So they populated the rest of this Sacramento after after they left Eldorado County, but Japanese were just were more widespread, I think. In the Foothill areas, there are quite a few Japanese work camps and things. There's one near my house up in a little town called Greenwood just a small town but there were like 50 Japanese in a work camp there in 1900. So so but then World War Two and discrimination and now there's very few Japanese in El Dorado County, the founder of the Sacramento tofu company. I can't remember his name Kinoshi or something. But so, but he he got his father, I believe he got his start in Eldorado County. And he was actually involved in the discovery of Okei san's grave. initial discovery. Okay, sounds grave in 1915. So he showed this Japanese newspaper report of where the grave was. And before that no one knew about Okei san's grave.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Oh wow...Oh, wow. So there that's a that's a major discovery.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

They were a farm family and Eldorado County and then they moved on to Sacramento. And he established a tofu company Sacramento famous and just recently, I guess he retired. It's

Madeline Hamaguchi  

uh, okay, let's see online on nichibei.org. It's a great Japanese American newspaper online. Kinishi.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah Kinishi

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, and it looks like they yeah they closed it in 2016 so pretty recently actually

Herb Tanimoto 

yeah and they had a long run yeah wow there we the Konishis have now really had no idea about the connection to the Wakamatsu farm, I guess the that history never really made it down to them. But now they know because they were at our one of our open farms I think our celebrations they were invited and so now they're aware how important their ancestor was in in rediscovery of Okei san's grave. Oh, cool.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

And that's, that's awesome that that they were invited to that I have a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you to, to to get your your input on that I feel are important to ask. First being Why do you feel that it is important for Japanese Americans and others to learn about early Japanese American history

Herb Tanimoto 

so that's what I've been working on for ever since I got involved in in the Wakamatsu farm

Herb Tanimoto 

I think Japanese just hard to explain. They have to look beyond the internment to their origins in America and why their ancestors came in the first place. What, what brought them over? Why didn't they just stay in Japan? You know, why? Why did they come to America? What, what were they looking for? And those are important questions. And Japanese Americans need to be asking that and they need to be looking in their ancestry at the, their Issei their first generation that came to America and how, how, how they have what they did, where they live and that and so, you know, that's so important, because that's how they got their their family line got started in America, and I just think that's, that's really important because it puts into context. A lot of other things that followed like, like internment and, and and discrimination. Even Even now, you know, some people, some Japanese might run into that, you know, even now, I had one experience one time that just just one but you know, out of the blue, you know, someone could tell you, you know, you should go back home, you know, so, and you you you just don't expect it and why do they feel that way?

Herb Tanimoto 

And and I think you have to try to understand that Yeah,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

yeah, that's uh I understand and yeah, I'm sorry that happened. It's happened to me before and it is jarring

Herb Tanimoto 

to me.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

It's a you know, because there's you don't you know, you personally and I personally don't feel anything less than just what we are You know, whether that's defined as American or Japanese American or whatever, I mean, we're just there. And you know, to be told that, you know, you're not what to be basically asked, you know who what right Do you have to be here? It's a, it's an odd question or an odd imposition.

Herb Tanimoto 

So I've noticed how the Japanese American community is generally supports immigrants of different nationalities and tries to tries to help them whenever, whenever they can, which is, which is a good thing. So

Madeline Hamaguchi  

yeah, there's a really great exhibit a few years ago, it's a traveling exhibit. I don't know if they do that anymore. But it was called, Then They Came For Me. And it was about the first moments of people being detained for Japanese American internment. And the title of that exhibit references a poem that the author escapes me right now. But I believe that it was actually by a, I can't quite remember, but it does. It's not by a Japanese American person, it's actually think by someone who was affected by the Holocaust. And yeah, and it was that

Herb Tanimoto 

could relate a lot to the Holocaust to Yes, yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

And it was, This poem is beautiful. I'll post it, you know, and send it to you and I have a chance. This poem is so powerful, because it really asks people to, you know, look at how you can help other people while you have the chance and you know, the integral support, they're

Music  

Time to Check for, Check for facts. Time to check for, check for facts. Time to check.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I fact checked myself and I'd like to talk about Then They Came For Me. This is not a poem, but quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller on permanent display at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The full quote is, "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me." According to the museum's website after World War Two Pastor Martin Niemöller, openly spoke about his own early complicity in Nazism and his eventual change of heart. His powerful words about guilt and responsibility serve as an indictment of passivity and indifference during the Holocaust, and are a reminder about the consequences of individual action and inaction more broadly. The words, Then They Came For Me, were also used as the title of an exhibit about Japanese internment that came through the San Francisco Presidio and 2019. They use this title not to draw comparisons between Japanese incarceration and the Holocaust. But more to let people know that something like that could happen again in the future. The exhibit asked us the viewers to not only learn about this period of history, but also to take in its impact generations down the road. It left its viewers with a call to action. To investigate your own fears and inactions. Find out what you would be willing to sacrifice to help others preserve their freedoms, and ask ourselves how would we prevent an event like the Holocaust or Japanese internment, if it dare to happen again.

Herb Tanimoto 

One other thing of looking back to your Japanese American ancestry is is how they help the American the country America how they what they did for America, which is more than sushi. So, a one point I think 10% of all agriculture, at least In California was raised by Japanese crops. The money made in crops was was was by Japanese. And I think I mentioned before, the Japanese were very much involved in the rice beginning of the rice industry.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, yeah. And now California is one of the is like, one of the biggest exporters in the world of rice in general.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Wow. That's that's a great point.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. And the Japanese culture, I think just Americans love the Japanese culture. It just kind of ingrained itself, especially out in the west coast. Yeah, it's just a part of West Coast culture now.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, yeah, it's true. By it's almost like resorption by assimilation, you know, it's been, it's been readopted into vernaculars, that people don't and colloquialisms and ways of being that people don't realize, I think, yeah. And especially through media and movies, and such as well, there's, there's a lot of reference points, I can point out there. But I have another question for you that that's kind of related to this, but is a bit of a departure. And, you know, I just have, these are more about you, I think and what I'm, you know, I'm looking also at in this podcast about how Japanese Americans relate to their own identity. You know, and the point about, basically being told to go back home is something that I think a lot of people that are present, outwardly, like we do being fully Japanese, American on both sides, you know, have have have encountered, but that doesn't mean that we're defined by those experiences, even though we're affected by them. But, you know, more more positively. In what ways do you feel connected to the Japanese immigrants of the 1800s? And to, you know, to your own Japanese American heritage, and your own identity as a Japanese American, you know, how do you celebrate that?

Herb Tanimoto 

I don't know, I live out here in El Dorado County where there aren't very many Japanese. So unfortunately, I don't get get down to Sacramento and to the festivals and things as much as, as I should.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

And it could be in totally, you know, small ways too. And also, if you don't do anything pointedly Japanese American two, that's absolutely an answer. You know, a lot of people don't, I think, you know, my, my, my parents can kind of fall in that category as well. You know, there's, this is, I mean, it Sonsei generation is is the bookmark of differentiation between being your Japanese American Nisei parents and you know, what the Yonsei kids crazy kids are doing.

Herb Tanimoto 

The main thing I do is is docent work at the Komatsu farm I think we had the group there were 30 from Sacramento we just the other day and we've had some other very large groups and and I put together a different display so I had one about the Wakamatsu carpenters, you know, Daiku, Daiku is very honored profession in Japan, carpentry work, woodwork, some beautiful woodwork in in Japan, not just tansu boxes, but the temples. Wooden Temple is some of the largest wooden buildings in the world are those Japanese wooden temples. So I put together a display of that and I had some kind of study about the Daiku and there's a lot of information in on the internet, but I learned quite a bit, you know, so, there Wakamatsu farm there or three or four carpenters and they went on actually to deal with a bunch of other buildings, homes for different people in Coloma, different ranches and farmers and so they built did a lot of work in addition to the Wakamatsu farm and the kami dama display I had, so I had to kind of study a little bit about Shinto and Kami and and then relate that to the visitors that we have. So, it helps me learn and it helps me spread kind of the, the Japanese culture out to to people who might have were where, you know, new generations were in kind of way in a distant past and, and renew it for others other Japanese so they could appreciate their their heritage. So, I like to do things like that, you know, just to talk to people about their heritage because we have a lot of Japanese visitors over the course of the year,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

it sounds like even people from Japan and Japanese Americans come to see Wakamatsu farm.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, yeah, we get people from Japan, like at our festival, big festival, that people came from Aizu Wakamatsu, that was quite an honor that the they came the Lord Oh, whoa, that's in his robe that he that his, his ancestor wore during the Boshin and war. So

Madeline Hamaguchi  

that is amazing.

Herb Tanimoto 

That's very cool. And they're the ones who dedicated the plaque the Gi Gi plaque there on the farm.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

When herb mentions the Gi plaque, he's actually referring to a stone monument on the farm given to them in 2019. By visiting delegates from Aizu Wakamatsu, the region of Japan that the colonists originally departed from in 1869. One of the delegates was actually a direct descendant of Lord Matsudaira, who gave them the seed money to start this colony. The plaque commemorates the 150th anniversary of the founding of Wakamatsu colony, and there's a large calligraphic character written by the descendant of Matsudaira etched into the stone, and the word is Gi, which is the Japanese word for righteous way of life loyalty duty and being righteous under any circumstances. Hard core. Oh, so and when you say Aizu that's the prefecture.

Herb Tanimoto 

Oh, I guess the official name of the town is Aizu Wakamatsu, but Wakamatsu was the name of the town before they were able to reattach the Aizu name back to it fairly recently, but Aizu was a clan of that area, so and so Aizu was that the area that the clan controlled I guess so. Oh, okay. Wakamatsu was the town. Oh, cool. And Fukushima was the prefecture.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Right, right. Okay. I have to brush up on my Japanese geography.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, all that I had to kind of learn to be a docent to tell people. Yeah, but I'm talking about

Madeline Hamaguchi  

my last couple questions are just more fun, a little bit, but also to celebrate more, or one of our deepest connections, I think, to definitely American culture, which is food. And it's something that is you can't walk through almost any town without running into one Japanese restaurant of some kind. You know, it's kind of like Chinese restaurants. It is something my brother said, it's one of the first introductions that a person can get to another culture, but it's also a way for people of that heritage and of that culture to celebrate it. So that's part of the reason why The Mochi Project, why I've sort of adopted that name. I guess more more personally to you what is it? Do you have you know, a favorite Japanese food? And do you like Mochi?

Herb Tanimoto 

mochi? I've never gotten that much into mochi because I've never really had good mochi I guess. Every. Every New Year's Day. One of our docents is a Japanese is married to a Caucasian and they have a new year celebration. What did they call that... The Japanese New Year's celebration. There's a name for it? 

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yes, it's called.....Oshogatsu? 

Herb Tanimoto 

Maybe that's it.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

or is it something or there's something?

Herb Tanimoto 

New Years I guess was uh...

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, New Year's food. Definitely. We My family has...

Herb Tanimoto 

...the mochi and things like that. Right.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. A lot. A lot of house hopping.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. So So I've gotten to that last few few years. So I always look forward to that and that. That's always good. I like the mochi they have.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Wonder where they get they must they must get it from like Osakaya or some sort of, you know, mochi shop. Something like that. 

Herb Tanimoto 

Not Sure. Yeah. Because I guess it's labor intensive to make.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

It is. Have you experienced a mochitsuki?

Herb Tanimoto 

No, you mean the pounding and all that? Oh, I imagine the Japanese colonists did something like that. Oh, yeah, I bet it'd be nice if we could find like a big ol mortar that they used

Herb Tanimoto 

I've got pictures of my my uncle's doing that as that was kind of a routine kind of traditional routine for for my uncles to get together. And do that mochi pounding rice pounding. Cool. Yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, it's a something I have seen more of at a distance, but it's beautiful and musical to me and really was an inspiration for for this podcast as well. You know?

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. So you're just a mochi and your project. Okay.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. And it's the, the way into this. It kind of represents a lot of things, you know, the musicality of it. And besides mochi itself, which is this tradition that has really withstood the test of assimilation and time and pass being passed down through generations through lots of there's no written rules about it that are given out to people to do it. It's a lot of you know, come to the party, and we'll show you otherwise, you know,

Herb Tanimoto 

can't do it. Yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Um, yeah, the

Herb Tanimoto 

Wakamatsu farm the one of the first things I read in the newspapers back then they're saying, when when this newspaper reporter visited them, one of the first things that they did when they came to America was the deal with a fish pond. And they stocked it with fish for their diet because they couldn't get along without the fish in their diet. So

Madeline Hamaguchi  

that is really smart. Do you is the pond still there?

Herb Tanimoto 

We think remnant of it is there. It's hard to say it was lined was show line. So they went to a lot of rain effort to keep it clean and mess for their fish. 

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Do you know what kind of fishm I'm just curious? 

Herb Tanimoto 

Carp you know, that's my understanding. Oh, carp. Yeah. So

Madeline Hamaguchi  

like that like non fancy Koi?

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. Yeah, regulation carp, you know. And one story was a look down and saw these five foot long carp there in the pond. I don't know how they where they got them from by fit. Wow. Wow. That's an exaggeration. shows. I don't know.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I mean, I kind of I kind of hope it's not because that sounds like, you know, part of the the fairy tale existed. So

Herb Tanimoto 

this welcome to the farm. Yeah. So you know, talking about food, you know, they had to have their fish.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. Fish for fish for breakfast

Herb Tanimoto 

before I forget you're talking about food. Yeah. So one of the Wakamatsu colonists. His name was Sakichi Yanagisawa, who was a carpenter he was they were a young couple, he was here with his wife. And they went back to Japan. Then they came back to America, around 1880. And he established what some people think, was the first Japanese restaurant in San Francisco. So right, right around 1890 or so. He opened a restaurant in San Francisco. Oh, wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Do you know what do you know what food he liked to serve? Like? What was his specialty?

Herb Tanimoto 

I don't know. That's a good question. I imagine he served some American style food to get American people in. That makes sense. But I would think he experimented with, you know, introducing Japanese food. I, you know, how could he not, you know, he had a bunch of Japanese workers. There's like a dozen Japanese workers. He had four guys and they're eating Japanese food. So imagine they were cooking up Japanese food? Yeah. Wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

How did they I kind of wonder also how they got certain ingredients that they would have needed.

Herb Tanimoto 

I don't know, imported, the, you know, the Chinese. Were good at importing, you know, all the things they needed from back in China. There was quite a business importing Chinese foods, you know, dried fish and all kinds of things. So I imagine a lot of it kind of fit into the Japanese style to you know, a lot of kind of crosses over with with Chinese food. So soy sauce and whatever, so. Wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Wow, that's that's awesome. I'm gonna have to do some research on that. Yanagisawa.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, Sakichi Yanagisawa. Yeah. Young carpenter. Wow. take quite a while and in America. His daughter was the first Japanese American graduate of UC med school.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Really? Wow. Family history keeps going.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. Wow. she went back to Japan because she couldn't find a physician job as a woman in in California. So she went back to Japan. They went back to Japan.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Okay, because that would have been early 1900s. Yeah, I could see

Herb Tanimoto 

1901 She graduated from UC med school. Wow. So they went back around 1902 Wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Um, you see, like University of California.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, San Francisco. She first went to Berkeley and UC Berkeley and then UC San Francisco med school.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I'm surprised she was admitted at all with she was Wow. Like, that's amazing. That's also very like, it feels very, I don't know modern forward for them to for her family to be openly okay with such educational standards

Herb Tanimoto 

Well Sakichi Yanagisawa. He was a forward thinking man, you know, he, he absolutely wanted to establish a life in America, you know, so he was he was also involved in what was called the gospel society is a Christian organization in San Francisco. So there was a group of Japanese Christians back then, right around before 1900 is one of the first organized group a Japanese in San Francisco, we're Christians, these Christian students. So in their several walkabouts, the colonists became involved in their own gospel society. I forget the Japanese name for it it's escapes me.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

That's okay. That's it's interesting. Come to do more research on that in in San Francisco. Oh,

Herb Tanimoto 

yeah. 1880s 1900 Okay,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

just taking a note, my last question or more request for you is how we can best support your work, you know, we as these content creators as well as listeners to this podcast, you know, how can we best support Wakamatsu Farm? Because it's, it's an important cause to you, it's a reason why you wrote the book. And, you know, you, you spend a lot of time learning about the history to support it, as well as your work as a docent there. So, you know, what are some good resources? I guess, my requests are, what are some good resources that we can post with this podcast? Or, or, you know, send out to people that request it or whatever, you know, so what can we do to sort of put out some resources that you really like that have taught you about the history of this time period, as well as the farm? And what are some good ways to either get in touch with Wakamatsu farm itself or donate to it or learn more about it?

Herb Tanimoto 

So first of all, the Keiko's Kimono is available on Amazon. Yes, yeah. So we don't, I don't get to to give as much to the Wakamatsu farm because I have to pay a little bit to Amazon when when, if you buy it from Amazon, but it is available through Amazon.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Also, I love the glossary, and the character uh, character notes that you've put in here as well.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

So it's very sweet.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

By the way, the epilogue was one of my favorite parts of the whole story that's beautiful that you taught you really, you know, tied it back to where we are today.

Herb Tanimoto 

I can't really think of other sources offhand. It depends on how deeply you want to get into it. Stanford University has what they call the Ogi Shimbun. So it's the online resource of what they did was digitalize. Almost all the Japanese American newspapers back back almost to the Wakamatsu time period. So back to at least 1900, at least 1900, the Nicheibe Shimbun, which started very early and there were a bunch of other Japanese American newspapers. And it's just kind of fascinating. A lot of them have a Japanese section and English section. So, you know, the ones that have an English suction is kind of fascinating to read their concerns, you know, what was important to them back back at the turn of the century? 1910 You know, 1900 what they were what they were talking about back back then.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Were a lot of the people back then bilingual.

Herb Tanimoto 

Um, so we're talking about Issei

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah. It just just dawned on me now as a possibility. I just assumed that Pigeon English was maybe as far as they really learned English.

Herb Tanimoto 

They probably knew survival English because they had to. So you're right. They probably weren't very fluent in English, but they have to survive you know, they had to be able to at least read a little bit and be able to talk to people.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

What was the name of the newspaper again,

Herb Tanimoto 

Ogi Simbun. Stanford University...there's there's some video programs that I that I've I've got from from Amazon that are from Japan, you know NHK programs with subtitles. There is One drama series about that Boshin War, which included the Aizu the surrender of the castle the bombardment and surrender of Aizu cast so, and that helped me to understand that time period in the Boshin war the reason why these people, the Japanese pioneers at John Henry Schnell came came to America so it's good to understand the Boshin war and what it meant to Japan and how it started the the modern Japan the Meiji Restoration but it's off 50 part series the one I was viewed so it's very detailed, very well done

Madeline Hamaguchi  

50 parts that's awesome

Herb Tanimoto 

Yae no Sakura about this Japanese woman samurai, who actually was a gunnery expert. And she was she defended the castle during the abortion war.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

She is featured in some of your early chapters is that right?

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, she is. Yeah, I did include her. Yeah, that's

Madeline Hamaguchi  

uh, yeah, she was very is very interesting find

Herb Tanimoto 

I didn't realize that oh, real person, realize women could become samurai. And then afterwards after the war, she became involved in education. And she actually became an expert in a tea ceremony.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

So so not only did she live past this episode that's included in this book basically, but also an after the war, but she also became an expert in something else.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. Wow. So if anyone wants to get really detailed into the Boshin war, and Aizu Wakamatsu, Yae no Sakura would be it. But you have to get like I think can different video cassettes or video CDs to get the complete set, as it was broadcast by NHK once a week, for 52 weeks.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

NHK in Japan is like PBS in the US. NHK stands for Nippon Hoso Kyokai, which translates in English directly to Japan Broadcasting Corporation. It's Japan's only public media organization, but it's huge. It runs several international radio and TV stations as well as a streaming service

Herb Tanimoto 

for an entire year. This was after the Fukushima earthquake after the tsunami way to raise awareness NHK wanted to raise awareness to help that area recover. So to increase to get tourism back into that area, which was devastated from the tsunami and earthquake. But it was a beautifully done drama series based on actual actual facts.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

That's awesome. What a cool resource. I don't want to keep you too much longer. And I really appreciate your time. I think I learned a lot. And I appreciate you sharing, you know some of your personal heritage to be I do wonder if your family could crossed paths with my mom's family because she's from South Sac as well.

Herb Tanimoto 

So those so your Issei came over when?

Madeline Hamaguchi  

probably...potentially at slightly different times. I think my I have a feeling they're both they'll post post 1900s Probably not too long after sometime between 1900 and 1910 is my guess based on based on I have to double check my my family history book, but the they both came in through Northern California, I believe And then for both sides and then dad's family, the Hamaguchis is settled in central California and mom's family settled in Loomis and Penryn area originally. Yeah. And they both I believe were farmers. My mom's side is the Kawanos and from Kumamoto, and then dad's from Wakayama.

Herb Tanimoto 

So my parents, my mom was out in Tule Lake initially. And then she got transferred out to Amache, Colorado.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Amache. Right. That was a that was a harsh one. Right. I think that the winter has really got them there.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah. But it my dad, I think I mentioned before he was in the US Army, originally. Yeah. Or so. He didn't go to camp. Yeah,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

he was a, he said that he was in intelligence and

Herb Tanimoto 

military intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. Very amazing. The,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

so he wasn't necessarily part of that. 442nd.

Herb Tanimoto 

No, so that was Europe, but it was Pacific. So yeah, he was in the Pacific.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Did he Did he talk much about his

Herb Tanimoto 

time in the war? No. Hardly at all. But he did take a lot of photographs. He he had a camera, which he snuck around a folding camera. And a lot of pictures. I've kind of lost over the years, but there are some very interesting pictures of the of the island fighting that he took the aftermath mostly of the fighting site and and, and some of the other islands. He was in Okinawa, he was in that.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Oh, he was in Okinawa.

Herb Tanimoto 

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

And it sounds like you have connections not only to mainland settlement, but also Hawaii. What's that? Um it sounds like you have connections as well to Hawaii. Oh, Hawaii.

Herb Tanimoto 

My mom had a relative in Hawaii on Oahu. But dad never really got a chance to visit him

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Wow, it's these common threads. It is it is interesting. And I think you know, the, from farming to war time to camp to to where we ended up afterwards is fascinating. But

Herb Tanimoto 

but really agricultural period. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

And you mentioned that your family was grew peaches my dad's family grew almonds and stone fruit as well. I know that they grew a little bit of that plus sweet potatoes.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, I got this big picture. I don't know if you could see in on the back. Let's see. Do I have to turn it up? Oh, I have to tilt it up. The top picture that white picture there. That's a picture of a cooperative rice harvesting there's a bunch of rice harvest machines. There's my Uncle Mike was a little boy at that time. So he's on one of these rice harvester machines. Its like a 360 degree picture. This was 1926 I believe so they were harvesting rice. This is would be around near Gridley, I think in Butte County. Wow. So that was the first thing my family was involved in was was rice. Amazing. They were one of the pioneer Japanese rice growers.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

That means that the so they did they have Okay, wait, so did they have knowledge of how to grow rice that they brought with them?

Herb Tanimoto 

How to grow rice in this country was was a little bit different. So in the valley, it was so wet that they were trying to experiment. They're experimenting total station in Biggs, California where this Japanese guy and this guide professor from back east were experimenting with different types of rice to see what would grow in this wet, wet, wet land where there's a lot of flooding they discovered that the Chinese rice which is more of a mountain kind of rice, didn't do too well in in the wet soil. Whereas different types of Japanese rice they actually went all went to Texas to get some of this rice. There was actually Japanese rice growing in Texas. So they're early Japanese colony in Texas, actually growing Japanese rice and he brought some of that back. And they found out that some of that worked. And the ones that work big ultimately became the California rice industry started the California rice industry. That's right around a turn of the century

Madeline Hamaguchi  

that's that's crazy from Texas.

Herb Tanimoto 

Yeah, from Texas. Yeah, actually. So at least this one Japanese farmer in Texas was growing rice. Yeah, somehow he got down there. In Texas I think in the Panhandle I believe but

Madeline Hamaguchi  

that is insane about how they even heard about this guy for

Herb Tanimoto 

not only word gets around, you know, where the Japanese were, you know, they there must have been communicating so

Madeline Hamaguchi  

oh my gosh. Wow. That's amazing picture to have above above your all that everything else over there. It's amazing. The and it's a panoramic to.

Herb Tanimoto 

My uncle was on there. There's a little boy well, um,

Madeline Hamaguchi  

this is actually Oh, sharing pictures. This is yeah, probably around the same time that this is my mom's my mom's mom and dad. I think they had just gotten married. And this is a no parking sign that they were hanging out in front of. But this is in this is in Sacramento or Utah. One of those two that this? Yeah. And this

Herb Tanimoto 

19 I think it looks it looks like post post war force post war. Yeah. I think he had just gotten there. Just got out of camp, I guess.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I bet. Yeah, I think so. But anyway, while we're sharing pictures, I just wanted to share. Herb we are truly at the end of our time, but I really appreciate all of all of our conversation today. And I you know, if you have any other thoughts you want to share or anything later, you know, we can always, you know, come back and meet some other time. Plus, I would love to meet you some time at Wakamatsu farm and take a tour.

Herb Tanimoto 

Right. So you haven't been there yet?

Madeline Hamaguchi  

I haven't, but I it is. I'm gonna see when the next next few minutes I can get

Herb Tanimoto 

there. Maybe you could bring a group from Davis? Yes. Yeah. That'd be awesome.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe my parents too. That'd be cool. Okay. Yeah. But, but if, when I do go, I'll let you know. And maybe we can coordinate.

Herb Tanimoto 

Okay. So the best time is, is this spring or fall? Okay. So the winters are kind of too wet and the summers are kind of too hot.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

But spring, kind of around the blooming time would be nice. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And yeah, and I'll be in touch.

Herb Tanimoto 

Okay. All right. Thank you so much. Bye bye.

Madeline Hamaguchi  

If you'd like to arrange visit To see Wakamatsu form, read about its history or make a donation you can visit their website www.arconservancy.org/wakamatsu ...click on the donate button and it will take you to a secure terminal so you can send them a contribution. And you can also buy a copy of Keiko's Kimono on Amazon and all proceeds will go towards supporting Wakamatsu farm. Thanks for listening to the first episode of the multi project podcast. We hope you enjoyed learning about Nikkei history with me. And if you want to know more or review some new vocabulary, check out the multi project page at vacancy arts.org. I hope this inspires you to look into your own family's history and share with your favorite people. The multi project Podcast is a production of vacancy Arts Collective creative and production team members are Madeline Hamaguchi, Evan Hamaguchi, Gia Battista and Tom Abruzzo. Theme song by Alex Chong, come back for a brand new interview next week and I'll talk to you later