The Two AM Club: "Collecting Stories: A Discussioncast on Embracing Diverse Approaches to Raising Children Around the World.
Welcome to The Two A.M. Club, where we have open and diverse conversations about parenting and partnerships across different cultures. Join us on an amazing journey as we explore the joys and challenges of raising children through the stories of parents from around the world.
Our collection of stories represents a tapestry of cultures and personal experiences. We celebrate our differences and the love we share for our children. While everyone's parenting journey is unique, we find common ground in the experiences that connect us.
Whether you're a new parent, experienced, or simply curious about raising children, The Two A.M. Club has something for you. Expect heartwarming stories, practical advice, and thought-provoking discussions. Our goal is to inspire, support, and connect with parents and partners worldwide.
At The Two A.M. Club, we value open-mindedness, diversity, and honesty. We create a community that embraces the universal journey of parenthood, where love knows no limits. Join us today and be part of a welcoming and supportive community of parents and partners.
We believe that parenthood is a journey filled with joy, challenges, and countless stories that deserve to be shared and in doing so we are collecting stories from parents about their experiences in navigating the intricate paths of parenting and partnership. We understand that parenthood isn't solely about raising children; it's also about nurturing and sustaining strong relationships with our partners.
Our aim is to weave a rich tapestry of stories that celebrate the beautiful, messy, and wonderful world of parenting and partnership. Your stories have the power to inspire and guide others on their path to growth and fulfillment. We are eager to share the triumphs, struggles, and lessons learned along the way. Whether you're seasoned parents or just embarking on this remarkable journey, we invite you to listen to the diverse experiences, insights, and advice that these stories hold.
Join us as we embark on this voyage, hand in hand, as parents and partners. Welcome to our discussioncast, where we embark on an honest and unfiltered journey through parenthood and partnership. As everyday individuals, we deeply empathize with the triumphs and challenges that come with these roles, just like many of you. Each episode of our show explores a wide range of topics and features special guests, offering a glimpse into the diverse experiences and perspectives within our global community. Despite our differences, we all share a common objective: navigating these challenges and joys in our own unique way.
The Two AM Club: "Collecting Stories: A Discussioncast on Embracing Diverse Approaches to Raising Children Around the World.
A Tale of Two Hearts: Journeying from Couple to Parents
Ever wondered what it's like to welcome a child into the world guided by a midwife in Germany? It's a unique experience, and Sai and Jill are here to paint the picture. They'll recount the invaluable lessons they learned about the physical and emotional upheavals of pregnancy, and how their children's births – vastly different from each other – underscored the significance of support during childbirth. From their last quiet breakfast before the baby's arrival to the unexpected visit from Jill's parents during her labor at home, you're in for a story that's as educational as it's heartwarming.
But buckle up, because the ride doesn't end with childbirth. We're diving right into the choppy waters of parenting roles, family dynamics, and the essentiality of effective communication. Sai and Jill share their strategies for defining parenting roles, preventing conflicts, and smoothly integrating a new family member. The couple digs deep into personal growth in parenting and the necessity of self-love and a stable relationship as the bedrock of raising kids. From the challenges of juggling roles to the joy of seeing their love mirrored back by their children, this is a journey of self-discovery that no parent or parent-to-be would want to miss.
Hello and welcome to our podcast, the 2am club.
Speaker 2:The honey bunnies.
Speaker 1:I do my love.
Speaker 2:I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1:Good, how are you guys?
Speaker 2:Very good Excellent.
Speaker 1:How's the week been so far?
Speaker 3:Very nice actually, considering that I have two kids at home, you know, screaming for entertainment.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I'm super excited we're having another interesting couple as guests today, with whom we're going to talk about parenting and partnering for the next hour. You guys like to introduce yourselves.
Speaker 3:You go baby.
Speaker 4:Yes, so my name is Sai. I am a businessman from England and living in Dubai for about two and a half years.
Speaker 1:With two kids.
Speaker 4:With two kids and a wife and a wife.
Speaker 2:Jill, how about you?
Speaker 3:I am Jill, I am German, indonesian I don't know if you hear the accent Two kids living in Dubai, sai and I, had like a quite long and journey full past of our relationship. I, yeah, berlin is my hometown and, yeah, we're here now with you guys.
Speaker 1:So me and Jill we actually met in Beijing a long time ago, long time ago, and I feel anybody that lived in China had a journey full life.
Speaker 2:Where did you meet Vicks?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it wasn't Vicks, it was somewhere else.
Speaker 3:I think it was your home. Yeah, you, yeah, we had some, we had some similar friends and you know, there's this house party in the Nanluo Gu Chiang.
Speaker 1:It's always. It always starts out with house parties.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Wow, you can actually talk, you know.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Actually, our baby also started out at a party. Now it was just you and me party, but it was still a party, Party of three yep.
Speaker 2:Quim. All right, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. So I mean quite basic question. I mean we can dive just right into the parenting stuff. So how do you find the experience of being a parent and just start anywhere?
Speaker 3:Okay. So for me, I love it. I feel I have been, you know, 35, 34 years I'm basically focusing on other stuff than kids, really. So I am, by the way, 40, but like five years ago I felt like, you know, school, career, all these kind of different aspects, and like I climbed the ladder quite respectfully high, I would say and I felt really fulfilled. But then there was a shift and I felt, okay, I'm ready to not do any of that anymore and just go right into family making. And I felt since then I'm like totally in it, like 100%, like there's no doubt about it, like I don't feel a pullback or I don't feel anything like that. I feel very immersed and that's my journey so far.
Speaker 1:How old are your kids? Sorry, one second. How old are your kids already? I know they're much bigger than Muna Nui.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my oldest one is five and the youngest one is two.
Speaker 1:All right, five and two Exactly.
Speaker 4:And I think, for me, when Jill and I first got together so Jill's a bit older than me, right, she's six or seven years older I knew that the kids conversation is going to happen much sooner than it needed to be, and so I acknowledged that. You know, that was going to be a reality, and I remember when it actually happened, I was terrified of what it would mean, right, because you know, I didn't have the best relationship with my father, right? So there wasn't really a reference point for who I was going to be as a male role model. Right, because my male role model was my mother.
Speaker 4:And you know, after becoming a parent, one of the fascinating things and I explain this to my friends, it's almost like a biological switch happened where I felt that my sense of purpose as a human is being fulfilled. And the best way to describe it, right, is, if you're 13 or 14 years old, your mind is like consumed with just lust. Right, that's what it is. But at six or seven years old, to explain that same concept, it would just be completely alien, right, it wouldn't exist in their biology. And so having a kid had that same switch, but with love, where you think that you have experienced love before this right. But then, after the kid comes out, it's just every strand of your DNA is just in alignment with this thing.
Speaker 1:Do you think the love that you have with your kid is different than the one you have with your wife? Like, not, of course it's a different kind of love, but the amount of love.
Speaker 4:The love I have with my wife is very much based on, you know, our ability to connect as a couple. The love I have with my kid is biology, it's inherent. There is nothing that my kid can do that will take that away and, aside from the momentary parts where he pisses me off, it is it just feels like it was a natural course of my evolution as a human.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like it's almost a part of you, Like a physical part of you that is not within you but outside of you?
Speaker 4:I feel that my life has accumulated to the point where this is the next step that I need to take the parent and to take care of them.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 3:I actually like to add to that like the word unconditional love. Before was you know kind of a word out there between my husband and I Like, yeah, I love you unconditionally whatsoever, something like that but with the kid's Always conditions Right and there's always a story and there's always a record and there's always something you know you're bothered about.
Speaker 3:But with the kids I felt like you know, the more you know they grow, the more they do get on your nerves. It's like, what do I do with this? But then you know, once that attention moment has faded, it's like there it is again, the unconditional love. Like no matter what you do, I always come back to this one point of love which is like unquestionable and and that's something I felt I discovered with the kids you know, one by one.
Speaker 1:It's their survival method, I think.
Speaker 2:No, but I mean that's one of the reasons why we wanted to invite you, because, of course, we have spoken before and we know how positive you are about parenting and how much you love it, and I think this is just so nice to see the diverse mix, whereas I would say we were talking a lot about the challenges in the last year and we were challenged a lot and we had lots of difficulties, but the nicer it is to see, okay, actually, and we just actually had another couple here that was just explaining us how, you know, even they stay awake another 30 minutes for the kid to fall asleep, but how much they enjoy those 30 minutes, and for me, I mean this is amazing, yeah, and I really want to hear more about it.
Speaker 2:And I also want to definitely give Jill the opportunity to talk about her perfect birth, because I know also from speaking about it and you know, our, I think, second episode it was we're talking about our horrendous, horrific, horrible birth, but, yeah, and we spoke about it in private and you know, I think, yeah, we have to show both sides and so, yeah, I'm really, if you want to share and to whatever extent you want to share, but yeah, I'm really excited actually to hear about this.
Speaker 3:I definitely will share about it. Yeah, so Si definitely has to add his point of view to it, because we did write a whole essay about it afterwards, because it was just too crazy what just went down from the experience.
Speaker 1:You guys wrote an essay about the whole birthing afterwards.
Speaker 3:I mean you wrote it down really, because even a voice message after just to catch the emotion, because that's out of this world, it is it is like this fading thing right where sometimes you go back to you like, oh, like I forgot or there's something else that comes through.
Speaker 1:It's a really great idea actually to write or send a memo to never forget that.
Speaker 3:Yes, or even sneak in a selfie, which happened for us too, you know right after.
Speaker 1:obviously I wasn't the one taking the picture, but I hope it wasn't the baby, and that would have just been really awkward. Yeah, yeah, and then the flash went off right.
Speaker 4:Can you imagine the first thing that your newborn sees?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that's so funny, titty, and flash, there we go.
Speaker 3:So yeah, but let me share a little bit about our experience. I mean my experience. So we had a midwife which was called Billy Kibama in German. So you would hire her from third. The moment you find out you're pregnant, you would call her and you would say, hey, would you, would you guide me through this experience? And she is there really from the first day. You call her all the way to six weeks, eight weeks after, like, depending on the need. Usually you don't have this kind of setup because it costs extra. You just have a midwife after the birth that guides you through the Bogen bed. How you call the name? Yeah, the weeks after the birth. Yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2:German expression yeah, Bogen bed. Is this golden time after birth?
Speaker 1:So both both birds were in Germany, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, both birds were in Germany, same hospital, and so what I just experienced with her all like the nine months, I would say, is that she kind of we got to know each other. But she also gave me lots of mindsets to you know, just to incorporate that, like there was a lot of the female body is made for this, like the female body is kind of, you know, geared up for this pregnancy, like your body has certain symptoms and then all the way to birth. So in my head I had this whole time okay, whatever you know, growth, pain, it's all in balance to what my body can take, and so I was always very confident about everything that's happening is what my body at the edge is able to take. So that mindset I took into the birth basically.
Speaker 3:So when my midwife told me, so you can call me when you, when your water breaks, or you can call me when the first cramps happen and I will guide you through it, and I was like I think I got a cramp and she's like, okay, are there any? What's the time? It's like I don't know 20 minutes ago. Ah, okay, you can call me again when it's like three minutes apart and I'm like 20 minutes to three minutes. Okay, that sounds like a long time. And yeah, we went through the day, sai and I. We decided to have breakfast in the restaurant while I had my contractions going on, you know, every 10 minutes, and I think Sai also took a video of that.
Speaker 1:The last quiet breakfast.
Speaker 3:And then we took like a two kilometer stroll all the way home and I said I think now we should stay at home, just, you know, to be on the safe side and not go too crazy. I don't know how you do you remember? And then, yeah, and then it got a bit heavier, where the conversations couldn't be maintained for longer, more than five minutes, and I understood, okay, so we're like 10, let's say eight hours in from the morning until this moment and I think I'm I had did most of my contraction time outside the hospital, basically, but that was to go all along that. But my midwife trained me or got me conscious and also the moving part, so like walking a lot, and so in hindsight, I think everything that I thought is no big deal and I should just do it to help me to have a smooth, let's say, dynamic during the birth, which, which is the next part I'm going to share. So my water broke. I got this thing to check whether it's actually pee or not pee and it turned blue, which meant okay baby.
Speaker 3:I'm pregnant. It went like babies on the way and funny enough, in that one hour that we're at home where the contraction was stronger. So I kept on checking in. But this was this one hour of nesting. So he actually made this whole house look beautiful, look ready, clean it up so that when we come back from the hospital or whenever that would be, that it would be to his liking, you know. But all the way until that moment, Like he just was all relaxed about it, I'm not sure what hit you there.
Speaker 4:No, I remember I actually built up the babycott while you were having those contractions. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:He wanted to have the feeling of something difficult.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's contributing.
Speaker 1:right, I'm doing my part, love, do you know where the wrench is? So within that full hour you got to do the babycott. Everything was set up. But here also you're super stressed. I remember bringing Svenja. I was just making jokes because for me that's my way to kind of de-stress.
Speaker 2:So my coping mechanisms.
Speaker 4:I was just making crazy. Did the jokes help the labor?
Speaker 3:Yes, 100% 100%, 100% and you know, in that time, in that hour, the door knocked and it was also very interesting. My parents showed up. They didn't know I was having any Because we wanted to keep it quiet until it actually happened, so no one knew that I was going through a contraction. And then the door oh, my parents come in. They have the key to our apartment. I was like OK, great, oh, my God, there's food. So there was. My parents brought food, obviously just to check in, and I told them I think I have my contractions and my mom looks at me like why not in the hospital? And then my dad is like what's happening?
Speaker 3:And I was like OK, so let me just go to the toilet, let me just do this. But it was so funny that my parents couldn't believe that I'm doing this and not going to the hospital. For them it was emergency time. For them it was like now we have to go, but for me it was like no, it's OK, we got this. Like no, my mid-buff is on the way. Yeah, my water broke, but it's OK. Like it's all normal. I thought it was all normal. I mean, we don't know what's normal, what's not normal, right, and then the hospital is walking distance, ok, and we live on the third floor without an elevator.
Speaker 1:So it was like oh my God, that's such a German story. No, it's not.
Speaker 3:Elevators is like one of those old houses which is has like four meters ceiling, so it was like a long way down.
Speaker 1:So it's actually four floors, right, if?
Speaker 3:you go to the US right Exactly. Stop there like that.
Speaker 1:Germans are so good at hiding stuff, we could five.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, it took me 15 minutes to go down and my dad was like insisting of driving me over because it was at that time every two minutes, every three minutes, so I was really crossing the road which has like four lines was a challenge to do it in one breath.
Speaker 1:I can just imagine the German drivers like patiently waiting at the red light. It goes green and you're like walking super slow. Nobody did anybody like honk or nothing or did they, was it residential area. Also no cars, because the patients of the Germans are just well known.
Speaker 3:But it was also was it early or was it night? What was it say 3 PM? 3 PM right, yeah, it was OK, it was not high traffic, but in any case my dad was like pushing me, like go in the car, go in the car, and going by car, there was much longer taking the U-turn than crossing the road, right.
Speaker 3:I was like no, no, it's fine. I got this, my dad on one side under the arm and so on the other, and we were just slowly, slowly walking over whatever traffic. I didn't care I was like later right, oh my god.
Speaker 3:And then we arrived there and this was the time to say goodbye to my parents and we're like it's OK, you can go now. Are you sure? Are you sure we bring it to emergency? No, no, that's not where I have to go. I have to go to floor number three. In this level I had all the information. Obviously, it was the hospital of my choice, so I felt just very in a safe. I know what's happening, I know where I have to go, but from that moment I didn't know what would happen next. But this whole mindset of feeling good in where this is going, how much trust I can put in myself, my surround, I think that all helped me a lot to feel and have this positive experience. Because just imagine, everything until that point was like that and it just continued like that. So by the time we arrived in the labor room or comfortable room, I got checked up.
Speaker 1:Comfortable room.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. No, it's a delivery room which sounds so funny, Because in German that is Lieferung.
Speaker 1:There's nothing comfortable about the word Lieferung.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is when you get delivered stuff, you know, but it shouldn't be the delivery of a baby, just sounds a bit strange.
Speaker 3:It's very factual based. Yes, yeah. So we got to the room. Sai was there all this time. He was just ready to take whatever I was sharing, whatever I was saying. He just took it and either did something with it or responded. So I felt like there was this very strong mental connection for sure, because physically, nothing he could have done other than making sure I don't fall. But the mental one was there and the doctor checked and I was like 8 centimeter or 7. I think 8 centimeter.
Speaker 2:When you arrived you were at 7 centimeters. I did the work outside.
Speaker 3:She was 8. Wow, yeah, it was a pretty good story.
Speaker 1:Two more red lights. That baby would have been born in the street. That would have been a selfie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know In hindsight, I don't know, when I was 7 or 6 or 4, I was just, you know, breathing it out, walking my path, having the confidence, I guess, and knowing that you know, I will not just all of a sudden faint or something. It was just it's OK, we can do all this and everyone is around me, and so I felt it was all safe. And then we arrived, it was like 7 or 8 centimeters and then she said, ok, so it's another two hours to go, roughly, if it's by the book, right. In the end I think it was four hours. Yeah, it was four and a half hours from arriving in the hospital all the way to baby being out. So that's a very short time actually, from what I heard from all the other mothers. And yeah, and then what happened then?
Speaker 4:You don't remember.
Speaker 3:I mean I was breathing a lot and there was lots of waves I was envisioning. So, basically, with every wave, I was envisioning this wave coming towards me and, you know, touching my belly and then going a little bit higher under my chest and like I just felt always, I mean not felt, sorry. I was consciously envisioning that, that this is the pain level and I think I have seen it somewhere or heard it somewhere and I thought that actually works for me, because once the pain fades away, the way fades away, and visualizing that felt made this whole recovery phase very, very good. Like the recovery was very, very good Having all this water, it was washed away and then when it started to increase again, then yeah, obviously all the way under here under the head I mean under, not my face, under the water, and yeah, but I mean so you could quantify it actually.
Speaker 1:The fact is you could concentrate. It's a little bit like the breathing that thing was telling you about that you could actually you could see it and you could measure it and that made your head Helpful. It's helpful Like you didn't have to think about actually, but it was that mental. It makes a lot of sense. I think everyone has that For you with the breathing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a threshold, it was a threshold that I felt and then again connected back to the six months of being conditioned. The body is made for it. The pain that I will experience is what I can take. It's not the pain I experienced. I cannot take it. So the word I think I cannot take this anymore. I'm not sure I ever used it, at least not consciously. One and the last one. No, yeah, the second one. It's a very important distinction, right? First baby. Where's the second one?
Speaker 1:But you want a third child, right? So apparently you can take it. You want a third child right, just to see if you can still take it or not.
Speaker 3:So good, Got the challenge, yeah, but having that in mind, it helped me with the waves, just envisioning it and it will never go under my head, it will never be under the water, and that was really working.
Speaker 3:So every time I came out of this whole wave situation, I was seeing Sai breathing out and Sai was joking with me. This whole joking part actually also helped because he would just say, hey, there you are again, as if I was gone. I was working hardcore, but it made me smile a little bit, being out from a delirium place, coming back into myself and that's also something that the midwife mentioned afterwards that they haven't seen that kind of experience that often or ever, that I would just laugh in between and be myself, not going from one hardcore situation in the next and just feeling, yeah, I'm coping, versus I actually coped and I'm good and I'm in a challenge, oh, I coped and I'm good. So it was really like I had a full recovery and I think that's something that I don't know how to teach or how to give that, but it was a combination of those two that helped me to bring myself back and not having coming ever in this desperate state actually, which I had in my second birth, but the first one definitely didn't have that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and just to talk to that, it was an interesting experience being on the other side, because you're witness to this and as a guy, it's like what's the most pain you're going to experience?
Speaker 1:A cold.
Speaker 4:Maybe you might have a herniated disc which is pretty bad, Exactly which is pretty bad and I remember just experiencing it as kind of like levels right, where the level one pain was when we were in the restaurant and then, as we were in the hospital, it started with level four, level five, and imagine the birth happens at level 10. And I remember in between the contractions at level five I could still relate to the pain. I'm like, yeah, I kind of get it. I had a herniated disc once. It was brutal, level six, on the edge of it.
Speaker 4:But then once she started to get to level seven, level eight, and in my perception it was just completely unrelatable.
Speaker 4:It was something that I couldn't experience at all right, and I felt that my only job here was to keep her head in the game is the best way of putting it right, because I knew that, look, in between those contractions, if she didn't recover she would give up on the second contraction.
Speaker 4:The moment that you start to do that, you start to. It's like in any sports right, the moment that you give up in your head, let's forget about it and the ability to give up in your head is very much dependent on the recovery time. So I remember in between those contractions, especially as I got more and more hardcore. My job was breathe in deep, breathe out, breathe in deep, breathe out, just get the oxygen in right and keep that rhythm and Jill, just from a mindset perspective, just kept focused and I don't, at least with the first birth there wasn't any kind of hesitation about it, so it was just very rhythmic all the way up to it and I think as you came in, expecting it to be horrendous and knowing that your body can take it made all the difference.
Speaker 3:Does baby number two? Yeah, he's talking about baby number two. Baby number one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And just a reminder to when she's exhausted, when she doesn't want to breathe, when she wants to give it up, just to keep reminding her again and again that you have to get the oxygen in, you have to let it out before the next contraction comes, so you were like Jerry Maguire.
Speaker 1:I never saw that show you were the coach, you were the coach and you're saying that.
Speaker 4:It's the best way of putting it, because that's all you can do.
Speaker 1:Exactly, you're just a coach on the sideline and you're just, you know, yeah.
Speaker 4:And I mean it was.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's all what we are at the end as the guys on the side.
Speaker 4:yeah, but I have to give credit to Jill right, she could have easily said screw you, you can't imagine what. I'm going through, and that's true. Right Past level six, there was no point of relationship, but she didn't.
Speaker 2:But I think that's yeah, I always say that the man on the side of the is so important, like also having more there next to me. I mean, I just always grabbed his arm and I was also doing a lot of breathing, which helped. I heard once, I think my prenatal yoga teacher said once you know, screaming will just take out more energy. Yeah, so just focus on breathing. And I tried screaming once. I was like yeah, no, oh my God, it's worse than without. So and but having the man on your side, Having that partner Having that partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was made all the difference. Yeah, I agree, that was super important.
Speaker 1:I think there's also the moment where I'm just kind of thinking about it again. Now that's the whole thing, and you see that person you love going through the pain. And there is that moment where you're like this is really the best part. This is that partner that I chose, that's the fucking one that you can go through all of this together, Like that was also something I kind of remembering. Now I was just looking at her and I was like, yeah, this was I made the fucking right choice for that. That was like spot on, this is. And then you go back to oh shit, there's a baby coming out you took like focus on it.
Speaker 4:But you know, the beauty of it was the finale, right, because it was for me I'm not sure if it was the same for you it was like a show, right, it was the most intense show you've ever seen. And then, right at the end, because we didn't know whether we were having a boy or a girl, it was a secret, yeah, yeah. So for the first one, because I wanted to experience it once, right, not knowing. And we had two different names, right, aleo or Alea, so basically the same derivative. And when the kid came out, it was wild. Once the head came out, the body came out almost instantly and yeah, it was a boy, and it was just like wow, and that finale was just so intense, right. And then everything just boom, all the pain subsided, all the screaming subsided and we were left with this boy.
Speaker 3:Oh, I want to share a little detail about this whole dynamic of the birth, because I was always prepared for this moment taking the epidural, like I signed all the papers I wanted to be. I thought I should have it because it's going to be so hard, and so I was waiting for the midwife to give me a clue, or a doctor that now would be a time to take it. Now would be a time to take it, now it's the window to take it, all these kind of things. But it didn't happen. So in the end I didn't have an epidural, but I was kind of thinking I should have it, but it didn't happen because she didn't ask me and I was asking her later as well.
Speaker 3:So when would have been the time? I mean, if it's up to the midwife, they would just go with the birth dynamic, no-transcript, moving forward. They would never recommend the epidural. But this was also me not knowing. You know how important it is for helping it's not for whatever but I didn't know it would slow it down. For example, I only found out about the slagam that an epidural would potentially slow down the birth because of you know this whole feeling that you don't feel down there. But so for us it wasn't. It wasn't there, but I was waiting for them.
Speaker 1:Was there some fear in your mind going through like, oh shit, there's no epidural and nobody said anything is something wrong. We're after the but, so it was afterwards where it would do it during the birth.
Speaker 3:I was in the zone like it was like we were machine. I felt like it was the breathing, it was like the feeling, it was like the breathing, it was like Like once a second, I could see something, which wasn't you know my closed eyes. Basically, I was a screamer, I was screaming very loud and I was also yeah, I was also twisting his arm like to the extent of I don't know, did that break anything?
Speaker 4:No, but it was. It was like.
Speaker 3:It was very much like Tai Chi and I also want to say that the midwife, my trusted midwife, she was. I mean she. It's not that she didn't do anything right, she did actually she was, she was amazing. What did you see?
Speaker 4:because I only realized yeah but it's the power of a great mediator, right Is, a great mediator doesn't really need to do much. They just need to ensure that the path is is there, and that's what I saw that she did. She mediated it to make sure it didn't go off the rails. And when she when things when she needed to interject, she did, which happened to be very little, so at a cut like she didn't do it much, but she did everything yeah, but she was there for the prep work before.
Speaker 1:Anyways, right, I mean, that's what they're. She really prepared you. And then you, you got the ball rolling and yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4:I mean I felt she was the coach right of the whole thing and just ensuring that we were on and you were the spectator, just cheering in the back then.
Speaker 3:No, but she was obviously telling us, telling me, okay, now move to the side, move to the left, like, okay, we have to, you know, push a bit more, like there was always. Her hands were always on me. It's not that that she was distant, right, but again, this was also not intrusive in any way. It was more like I would say I was actually giving birth, not stationary, but like Moving, but lying down. So she would like just move me left and right and then lift the head legs higher, lower, and Obviously I didn't do any of that. She did it for me.
Speaker 3:But this is, I felt, was also the a good job of the midwife to To make sure I'm mobile without me being mobile. You know, like this I Want to say I don't know if it's normal, but that happened. And Then there was this moment of 10 centimeters babies about to come. I think it was a 20 minute window where the pain was excruciating in a way that I just couldn't, couldn't handle it like I felt. Every birth will have that moment, yeah level 10 level 10.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like the boss I mean the 10 minutes.
Speaker 3:I think you said it was 10 minutes felt for me like it was even less.
Speaker 4:It was like five or six minutes max, yeah.
Speaker 3:But it was 10 hours in my head.
Speaker 4:I totally get it.
Speaker 3:It was like forever, right, like that, and and so I didn't know how to get through that. And then she did something which I did not expect the midwife yeah, I can feel the tip of the head. I can see it. You want to touch it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember that right and I was like wait over it, what I'm like, what like touching, and then you can touch it. Just touch, it's right there, you can push, just right there. I was like okay, okay, I take my hand. And she pulled my hand, I move forward and I actually touched the tip of my baby's head being between my legs with lots of hair. All I could feel was this muddy something, something you know. I was like what that's okay, this baby has to come out. And I was really like Mentally again up there, this baby has to get out. And I think that's exactly what she was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I pointed at the finish line. She's like it's right, she's really like that's. She knew the moment.
Speaker 4:She knew the moment boom.
Speaker 1:She saw the eyes, she knew that moment and she's like read the room and she's wow.
Speaker 3:Wow. So you see, right, the whole dynamic and this whole. I didn't think I had no idea about birth, so this being part of it, but it did something. It really like yeah, you, I only saw red, right, I wanted to get through the finish line. I wanted to make sure, like, this baby cannot be stuck there. I think this was the biggest one for me, that I don't want the baby to be stuck somewhere I cannot control, but this was a moment I can totally control, right, like I mean as much as you can, and that definitely did something for me to really Push the last, the last few things out.
Speaker 1:Wow, all right, before we get to the second part of the birth, your second child. If you got for the listeners out there, we're at the 30 plus minute mark right now. So if you need to make a pause because you have a crying baby or your partner is screaming at you or whatever is going on In your life, now is the time to press pause and then you can come back to us afterwards. All right, so second child, totally different from first one, birthwise.
Speaker 4:So so the main difference was the speed of it right and the speed of every single part of it. So with the first one, it was the best way to describe it was it was very rhythmic, right. We had the breakfast in the morning, we came home, we walked the stairs, we've I built up a baby car it's went downstairs. It was a very rhythmic thing, whereas with the second one, firstly, it was like in peak corona, right. So obviously you know you can't have the same kind of rhythms because you're interrupted. But the second part was just, the dilation happened so fast and I got the impression that if you look at that scale of zero to ten, it was like Ramped up to an eight almost immediately and it stayed at eight for like a good hour, whereas previously it was very progressive and that was. That was just the core difference, did you guys?
Speaker 1:have the same person following you guys for the second baby. Yeah, even with the same person. Yeah, all the same prep work. Yeah, do you think it's because you were? You thought that it would be the same as the first one and you were kind of like nonchalant, or was it?
Speaker 3:so for me it was. So after birth you forget about the pain pretty quickly and you know mother nature takes over and it's all about the baby. And Then, two years later, still you forgot about all the pain. But leading up to them, birth of the second one, I did start to remember, like just Just the words. I guess that I would describe it like you know, horrendous, terrific, like badly terrific, like these kind of things would pop up, pop back up like was it actually medium? No, it was actually like something you never experienced before. So these kind of definitions came up which I wasn't surrounded with in the first birth at all, like it wasn't the the way you would put it wasn't there. I would, the way I would put it wasn't there. I would just thought about waves and you know which is kind of normal, because you, if you never went through the pain.
Speaker 1:You don't really know right how. Actually, if you've never went through it, all chances are open exactly.
Speaker 3:Whereas if you went through it, then obviously there's like a pre-memory.
Speaker 3:There's like a Something there, and that's for me what made it let's say experience wise much harder. And I also heard about the phenomena that the second baby or the third or the third baby, and I also heard about the phenomena that the second baby or the third is easier. I didn't apply for me and I made sure all the mums I know know that that it's not easier. The second one for me it was harder, more painful, more conscious I guess the word is right was it also harder for you.
Speaker 4:Exactly. I had to build another car In Corona. My god, no man, it was. I got the impression, if you don't mind me saying, that Jill's head was not in it In the same way like it was with the first one since the beginning or towards more towards the end?
Speaker 4:The rhythm wasn't there, right, and that's, and I got the impression that she just wasn't, she's just just wasn't focused on, on what she needed to do, and I think that happened because the pain spike was so far, so quick, right, and then it was just, you know, at that point you were screaming for the epidural and all of that, so you lost.
Speaker 3:I was present that I have to ask for it. You know like you'd lost you.
Speaker 1:You lost your anchor is kind of what happened like it, just like you thought, like, oh, it's gonna be like in the last, I'm gonna have the first wave, second, third, and then just was zero to eight.
Speaker 3:I didn't even think about the waves that. I only thought about when would be the time to probably have an epidural yeah, you see what I mean that's the mental game was.
Speaker 1:The game was totally different. Yeah, off, for sure, yeah and I mean during COVID also. It was. I mean, I remember the birthing. You had to wear a mask and you were like it. Was it different? Your mental game is also just as a non, non-pregnant, nonparent. Your game is totally off. Also, you're afraid of everything else. Were you able to be in the room with her?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure, and the midwife as well. And again, this is why I credit the midwife is when you scream for the epidural. What were the words that she said? Because it was because of her it didn't happen. Oh yeah, so okay because at this point we weren't in sync in the same way as the first one. I was thinking because I was more the enemy at that point. That's true, but she wasn't yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So she actually, when I scream for it, she was like Kind of saying, jill, I hear you, I hear you, let me prepare you for it. Like she never said no. Okay, that's, that's also something which, which I think is important. She never said no, but she always like kind of delayed it a bit, in the way that she would prepare me in a different Position, or she would like Get something, or she would prepare something. So I would just I felt like okay, okay, it's coming, okay, maybe later, okay, in a moment, like it wasn't Immediate, that she would jump into my request. And then when there was the point where I said where step it, or where step it, or she would say I'm ready, I can, you know the, the fusion, whatever, we are all prepared. I can get the doctor now, but, joe, your dynamic right now it's very good in terms of them.
Speaker 3:You know, the progression of the baby coming out is like every bit is it's moving, whereas with ever dirt it could slow it down. And I was like slow it down, like what are you talking about? Like more of this and longer of? Definitely not. And I was like forget about it not happening. And then I think I did ask about what else can, can we do, because I cannot take this. And then she would be suggesting you know we can, you know, poke, because the water didn't break. At that point the water didn't break. But I was already like I cannot, I cannot take more of this more than five minutes. Five hours in my head, but five minutes, right, and yeah, and then she was suggesting to poke the.
Speaker 3:Break the water to break the water and that would increase the pain would increase the flow and I was like, yeah, okay, let's do that.
Speaker 3:No really, that's that's what I was thinking. I didn't, I couldn't think about going back, I couldn't go for slower or for less. I just thought let's ramp this up and finish it. No really. But yeah, I guess that, yeah, that was my other finishing line, yeah, and then she did that and, yeah, something happened but I do remember it happened really quickly, right after, which was, I would say, ten times better than the epidural, because I mean, the Pedal is not gonna ramp anything up and it's gonna be slower. So I thought I made the right choice.
Speaker 1:It was my choice in the end, right, it was your choice at the end. Yeah, and you feel comfortable with it or not. I mean at the end of the day. You can't go back in time and kind of change it, unless you have a third child.
Speaker 3:But anyways, but no, so yeah, it's but yeah, but I do want to share the beginning of the labor because, like the first one, you know, going to a restaurant, having all the stroll up and down the stairs twice, 25th, half an hour later, stuff like that and with the second one, we went to the hospital at seven o'clock in the morning, so you can imagine, maybe a few hours before already new contractions are happening, which is actually around midnight when I felt it, and by that time baby number one was sleeping, two year old LAO, and it was sleeping, you know, also Resting, because we're like one day before due date, so the best case we have another 48 hours, but it was one day before and and so, yeah, I was in contractions. I decided not to tell my husband. I also decided not, I mean, I was trying to sleep, but it was this 20 minutes, 15 minutes, kind of cramp, cramp, cramp, so there was no sleeping. And then the little one woke up and this was a time when, you know, I would lie next to him, he would calm down and then I can jump out again. So I, you know I climbed on his bunk bed and nine, nine months pregnant, it's not new, it's something I did regularly and then I lied next to him. He fell asleep again and all I was thinking was please stay asleep, so we have no drama when I want to go to the hospital. La la la, stay asleep, stay asleep, stay asleep. So again, I was very maternal.
Speaker 3:I guess in that moment that I just want the like little little Stress. So for me it was no stress, lying there next to him and just Holding those contraction next to him. But I do remember this moment. You know, I was holding him calmly, I wanted to distance myself. He was like, ah, okay, I go back. But my cramps were like my labor was like Right in front of the door, you know. It's like what am I doing here? But it's okay, I can take it. And, yeah, only at six o'clock or something, or 5 30. I decided maybe I wake up sign, maybe I should call my mom.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I did a nice sleep.
Speaker 1:So she was already thinking about waking you up around four. She waited another two hours. She's like I'm gonna give them rest, we're gonna have two kids. There's not gonna be very much of this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I thought that's nothing you can do other than being annoyed that he has to wake up so early.
Speaker 1:You feel bad about saying it, but that's really the truth, right? He's gonna be so nice, like my god. Of course, I really want to be here with you, but I also really want to be here with you. You don't need both people to suffer.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, talking like a true much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then, once he was awake, my mom was already on the doorstep. Eleo was still asleep, which was really the best, and but this is what. The big difference I felt between the first and second is that my mind was all about finishing up, rounding up the first one. He's in a good place, he's taking care of he, la la la. It wasn't so much about the waves, not at all like.
Speaker 3:I couldn't. I wasn't there at all. I was just like okay, I have to stand, okay, I'm done standing, I will Pack the bag. I would do this. I have to stand, okay, and then don't be so loud, baby, he has to sleep and I don't want him to scream. And then we have the separation kind of scenario where I'm going and he doesn't want me to go. This was all very, very bad idea for me.
Speaker 1:It feels like you had a lot going on in your mind compared to the first one. The first one you could really concentrate on. Having the way it's the second one You're like I just have so much stuff that is going on that I have to kind of take care of before I get this and then you cannot.
Speaker 3:I felt I wanted to create a certain circumstance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:For some people maybe this might be pressure, but for me it was definitely. I couldn't get out of myself, I couldn't say I just relax. No, no, it was really don't wake up. I need to say in this A game don't wake up the baby, because he needs to just sleep.
Speaker 1:when I go, Well, he just needs to sleep.
Speaker 2:I mean I have to say, but women are just really strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but they're super, super strong.
Speaker 2:I mean, we are amazing creatures, if men had to give birth.
Speaker 1:We would have parades every single day. Every day, we would have parades or be tax free for life.
Speaker 2:Paternity leave for five years.
Speaker 1:It's not paternity, it's called just a need. Healing and centering is what it would be called, and I don't think there will be a lot of children on earth. Also, how was, how was the shift from? Because there was two year difference right between your kids. And how was the how was that shift between one kid, two kid? Like the craziness, the parenting. How was that Like? Was it easier?
Speaker 4:or you mean in the holistic sense or the immediate sense.
Speaker 1:Both immediate, like right after when you had the first kid. Right, we're at one and we'll stay at one, yep, but you can still. You still have a sense of life, you still have a sense of of normalcy, right? But when you get that second one, was there a big crazy change?
Speaker 4:Did uh well, the so the first one. We prepared pretty strongly for it. So when the second baby came in, you know we put all his favorite toys and candies and everything in the cot.
Speaker 4:So there was an immediate like familiarity because he was already prepared and plus a positive association right With with the kid, and that still remains to this day, um, that the positive association is very, very strong with them. But in terms of the dynamic look, I mean with the first one, as you guys have just graduated your first year one thing that nobody really tells you in it it's not that they can't tell you, but it's very individual Is that the first year is horrible, right, and it's. It's horrible for different reasons, but if I was to pin it down for one particular thing, is that it interrupts every routine that you have and it feels like a very slow chokehold and things that you're not aware of. So a great example of this is, I like, going out to eat. Right, it's just something that we do, and our house wasn't actually built for eating at home, right? So what happened is, for the first kid, the first four months of it, we stopped having these deep, meaningful conversations with each other which were very commonplace in our relationship. And then, at five months in, we're like, why are we so distant? And I realized it was because we weren't going to the damn restaurants, because on the restaurants, you know, there was no TV, there was no phone. We were talking to each other.
Speaker 4:So, with these rituals which got interrupted, these routines which got interrupted, and it affects everybody in their own individual way, right, and that's something which was a shocker, you know. It just doesn't prepare you for it's an after a year and I'm sure you guys are seeing it now it slowly eases up and you start to get more normalcy back. So with the second baby, um, physically it was hard to show, but mentally it wasn't, because mentally we knew that the first year was going to be like a shit show and that was the thing which was really hard about baby number one. And physically, sure, it's a bit more exhausting, you have to walk up the stairs with two kids and all of that, but that's just. You know what I mean. Like it's whatever. The mental side of it I felt was much, much harder. So with the second kid that didn't really happen. We knew that it would. It would be there.
Speaker 1:But I mean you also have a different rhythm, right. I mean between a two year old and a newborn, I mean that's two totally different rhythm. Was he going to nursery at the at the time, or? Yeah, he was Okay, so that's also good. So during the day you were able to, and at nighttime I mean he was sleeping through.
Speaker 3:So there was that's important at nighttime. So for three years our baby was three. The first one I was putting the baby to bed Baby, it's a child, but still my baby. And then once the newborn came, it was like, just like that He'd put them to bed. We tried a few times before and then there was this resistance, la la la, and then I went back in but because I decided I'm not going to go anywhere, I'm staying in this bed with this baby and there was no choice. There was really no choice. So Emilio had to deal with the dad and dad had to deal with Emilio.
Speaker 3:Sorry, the first one, and hence the putting to bed was totally off of my shoulder. It was really nothing I have to worry about and both of them accepted it. And for me it was very nice to see that. You know, that shift of the full acceptance of the first born of the father, a different connection, All of a sudden happened because they had all the different routines in the evening. So it was really, really nice to see, and that was a very positive thing I felt, happening without us putting much effort into it. It was just I'm not going to stand up from this bed. This baby is nailed to me what do you want me to do? And Sai also didn't try to take me out, like Jill take over or something. He was fully committed. I'm going to put him to bed, even if it takes one hour until he stops crying and then another hour until he falls asleep. Right, so that was a resolve, I would say.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it also helped that. It also helped a lot that Every day you saw massive progress, right. So the first day was like 45 minutes of just screaming, and our first kid is the kind of kid when he screams I mean he vomits all over himself, right. So it's just we experienced that.
Speaker 2:Remember the vomit on the couch.
Speaker 1:Actually, actually, arlene was like who's coming to the park, I guess tomorrow. I was like Joe is like how did I mean? It's like, yeah, you remember the kid that vomited on the couch. And she's like, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Famous.
Speaker 4:He's very memorable so he was the kind of kid that vomits, right, and so you know I'm putting him to bed and he's vomiting on me, and that was the first day, and it was 45 minutes of that. But the second day was half an hour and then the third day was 25 minutes, and it was just just because I saw it was getting easier and easier and easier. It was like, yeah, it's like, give me 10 days, I got this.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's cute.
Speaker 1:But it's, it's. The thing is you have to like there is every couple has their own role, right? Every person has their role and they need to do that role in order to make it easier or help the other person. Right? Did you guys communicate this like? Or was she like you're putting him to bed, that's it.
Speaker 3:You mean the, the, the roles that we were going to adopt, yeah, couple yeah, but putting to bed putting to bed or everything else.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I think one thing that we did consistently is we never left anything to assumption Right. So, all the way from financial right, who's going to support the family? What are the roles? How much can I expect you to take care of the kids? How much do I have to, you know, make the money, like all of these conversations, including putting them to bed?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So, because of that, there's no resentment. There's no, and I think resentment comes from Expectations which are not managed.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:So, because all the expectations are managed, it's like I want to be here with this kid. You put him to bed. It was like all right, cool, you know I'll eat shit for a few weeks and then it'll be fine. And for me, yeah, it was very specific.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I remember actually, in that, you know, transition first, second, maybe that I would have my hands full with the first one at night, and obviously there's this freak assumption that you know one has one parent wakes up and helps and they take change.
Speaker 3:But for me it wasn't necessary and I felt I'm better off him having a sleep, him functioning, and I'm totally okay with it doing the evening thing because I can take my well-being and I was four hours to sleep. So if it wouldn't be the case and I know lots of moms who need eight hours, I know lots of moms who need uninterrupted deep sleep, you know, and if they don't get it they are a wreck after. But it just happened to be my biology that I don't need it. Hence I was okay, like my mental state was fine, even if I walk up every two hours. I mean, I had my moments, obviously, but I felt an overall I wouldn't complain about it because I preferred it this way, other than having a resentful husband who is saying like why do I have to do this now? Or whatever, like you know, in half a sleep state. So I was really happy with that, actually that transition, that I was also in peace, with myself doing this through the night for the first year.
Speaker 4:And just to talk to that, I think this sleep thing was really interesting because we have a friend in Austria, a violinist called Michael if he ever listens to this, and he's similar to us, right, we do a lot of personal development and all that kind of stuff and he said that he almost got a divorce after the first kid. And I was like you, you know of all people, right, it's be like like Michael Jordan getting obese. You just don't expect it. And what he said was was really fascinating. He said, like, look, in the first kid, one of the downsides of the personal development thing is like oh yeah, I'm going to be there with you, I'm going to be there through the whole experience of you wake up, I'm going to wake up.
Speaker 4:And he said that that was a big mistake, right? So with the first kid, they were both really tired the whole time, which meant that he couldn't stand his ground and she couldn't stand her ground. So inevitably, you know, the fights will happen and one person can't remain sane. So he said that with the second kid, when it came to sleep, they made an agreement that if something happened, he would just sleep on the couch and that would be that. And he said it was so much better because when she, you know, started giving him shit, he could just stand in his own element and own grounding. And I bought that conversation to Jill and I was like, yeah, probably a good idea, we talk about this now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean this is really music to my ears as you're saying that you really spoke about all these topics before, because what we are hearing a lot is where, I mean, after having a baby, for some couples the roles do change, and when you haven't clarified that in advance, that's where conflict, can you know, arise from. And I think this sleeping thing. I think we did a little bit what your violinist did, we were both in there, we were both not sleeping well and things really got so much better after month four when I went back to work, because then the roles were I don't know much clearer and it was a lot less conflict potential there. Yeah, it was the role I'm comfortable in and it was the role he was comfortable in, and we, yeah, it was just so much.
Speaker 1:You can't be two captains on the same ship, right? Yeah, I mean, everyone has to have their own role. I mean, for us it was a little bit different. Also, you were healing through a C-section, Muna Nui is taking a bottle and also breastfeeding at the same time, and you know like there's a lot more. It was more difficulty, there was more layers of difficulty in the whole process, but yeah, when you went back to work it was much easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, and I think this is such a good advice to really take these shifts. You know one person, then you know taking a rest, because it doesn't help anyone if both are tired, right, and then yeah, but resentment is a big topic, I guess at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, clarity for sure, definitely clarity. Communication is like super important, I think, in relationships and definitely in parenting. I feel I mean not being on the same page and trying to raise a child. I mean that's like the wrong way to go right.
Speaker 2:Even you might have different approaches right. Of course it's fine to have different approaches, but you have to agree to these different approaches than in this case, right?
Speaker 1:So how does it for you guys like same front? How was it to when you said, okay, this is, we're going to have a child, this is how we're going to raise it? Was it pretty straightforward, and were there kind of any?
Speaker 2:And now you have five years of experience. I guess at some point right, the real parenting starts right away from the bottle and changing diapers. Now you have to think about behavior and how do you correct them, and so on. So how did that go?
Speaker 3:I mean for me, I'm very clear what I want. Hence I instill. So if there's a situation, for example, where I'm feeling, okay, this is something that you know, the oldest one needs to found the boundaries, I instill. It Like sometimes when I have values which maybe size a bit more, less affair. Let's say, bring back the dishes from the table, right. For me it's like I want them early to get that clean after, yes, or that size a little bit more easy when it comes to that.
Speaker 3:Obviously he's upbringing, my upbringing. There's lots going in there. I can see how much I can actually get his support in. So it's what he's not convinced about. It's not going to be consistent, right? So I see my role and if there are values that I want my baby to be consistent about, I have to do it. I cannot expect my partner too much to do it to the same frequency as I do it, right? So I'm clear about that.
Speaker 3:Hence the I mean the outside talks when the kids are not around, like us saying, hey, we should teach the kids this, we should make sure that they're aware of this, that we have a lot actually like the overall idea of, you know, wanting them to be confident, knowing them. You know to be kind to each other, but size would still be different the way he puts it than what I would put right. Like I'm very nurturing, I'm very like positive thinking and all that. That's really my kind of way of communicating with my child, leading by example. And Sai has a totally different way. Like I could never copy or talk to Illeo the way he talks, much more. I don't know brask, I would say almost, but still the message is conveyed. You know it's just a different way.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I think we are aligned on. You know, certain values. We don't talk about it every day, but when the situation occurs then you bring it up like hey, it's important to me that he's, that our son is aware of this and that, or please help me in enforcing that, and then he would say yes or no and then we bring it up right. But it's not that we have a big plan and bring it all in one discussion. It's more on the go right. Five years later now, bigger topics will occur. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:Was it different on each tile? Do you feel like on the first one you were like more like this, and then the second one you kind of look back at how you did with the first one. You're like, oh, that wasn't really as useful as I thought it would be, or yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So the one thing that I noticed with the second one being two years old, is that when he was one and one and a half, what you would tell him, how you would tell him he receives it all and he deals with it and he takes it and he responds, whereas with Alejo the first one, I think until two years old I would always go the distraction way. Like there's a conflict occurring, I would distract him, there's something happening, I would distract him. So that's also what the book actually by the book would tell you that the kid is not yet so developed so if there's a tantrum happening, distract him. So I did that with the first one much longer than with the second one. The second one, I felt like it was nine months. He was already lashed out at, or even with one and a half year old, when, like one and a half year, don't go there, don't touch that. And it was much more. The boundaries were much clearer, much faster.
Speaker 1:So you put boundaries faster with the second one, with the server, and this is what we do with our son. We treat him like our second child. I'm like would there be boundaries? Because a lot of parents that have a lot of kids for me a lot of kids is already a- lot of kids more than one is already a lot of kids for me, right?
Speaker 1:And they all say the same thing. Your first one you treat him like this. Then the second one you're like I know that's not the way, I want to go this way and it's much faster. So you put the boundaries up and you see what comes back.
Speaker 3:And if you see what comes back is understanding, then you're like okay, I continue, Whereas with the first one I didn't try it as much, Hence I couldn't get the response either. So if you try it and you go for it and you see it works, then you will continue doing that. Right, it's good for all of us, right? If they don't try to knock down the windows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's don't look at the time, don't worry about the time. She's so German, she's like I'm looking at her, I'm worried about the time.
Speaker 2:Well, it's an hour. I know it's an hour, but it's a really interesting conversation. I do agree. I do agree. Thank you guys.
Speaker 1:I know it's a yeah. I'm just going to go back to what you're saying about your dad, because I have the same situation. Is there anything you see in your parenting style that comes from him or that way? And you're like this definitely not the way I want to do. It Does it. How did it affect you? For sure it affects you, but like, how did it? What? Like?
Speaker 2:what are you talking about, Honey?
Speaker 1:you didn't say the main part, I think he was talking about his dad wasn't there, right? And that parenting style from your dad? That wasn't there. How does it affect you as a parent?
Speaker 4:One of the challenges with that is not just as a parent, but also as a male is you have no reference point to what it means to be a man, and it's, it's bizarre, right. So you're raised by, by women, and the women are also men. Yeah, so, as a and also you know, hence the relationship wasn't good. So, little by little by little, of course, I mean, how can they help it? But, like, put propaganda in your ear about how the relationship was bad and as a child, you can't really differentiate between truth and not truth, right, so it reflects on on yourself. So I think, for me, coming to terms with what it meant to be in my gender, right to be a man, and what values do I, you know, take on myself, that became the most important thing. So, in terms of parenting, you know, actually I don't place that much value on the parenting aspect of the dynamic. I see it as three separate things. I see my relationship with myself right, and I don't mean hedonistic, you know debauchery. What I mean is how do I feel about myself? How do I feel about you? Know where I am in life, right? How's my own mental game? To use that analogy? Again, I see that as the most important dynamic, because I believe that if I'm not good in myself, I can't be good for somebody else, and it's a fundamental. You know it's like that and I have no expectations of the kids to make me feel better, or Jill to make me feel better. If I can't do that internally, me trying to be there for you is awful. And then I place the value of the relationship dynamic right above the parenting that if we're good, you know it's going to fix a lot of stuff. And then if I place those two very close together, but then the parenting, I place like yards away from that Because I feel if you're good internally and your dynamic is good in the relationship, there's very little you have to do, right? There was one thing that I wanted to mention there. So I feel like my role in parenting and I know that you asked a question about my father, right, I just morphed into this my role as a father is more just for my kids, to be somebody that my kids can be proud of, and not necessarily that that matters for me, but what it means is that they have a role model that they can look at. Especially with two boys, they're like okay, cool. This is a reference point for what it means to be a man. He did pretty well. I'm proud of him.
Speaker 4:I can choose what to adopt and what not to adopt, right, and in terms of the actual parenting, I feel that my job is mostly just risk management. Really right, I feel that they will figure out most things themselves, but the big ones don't take hard drugs, don't have sex without a condom, don't gamble. Understand what debt is, understand what credit is, understand what living below your earning is, understand what all of the very basic risk management. I think these are the things that my job is to make sure that they don't do that. Everything else I feel that they'll figure out, because I also believe the world that they're going to enter will be totally not relevant to mine, in the same way mine wasn't relevant for my parents and then that's exactly what I mentioned earlier with the values, right, you can see the values that he wants instill in the kids is.
Speaker 3:He's going to be very clear about that and everything else is just not very present for him. My values are feeding into everything he didn't say, right? So if I see a dispute between the kids, siblings or friends and I see how they deal with it, I have an eye on it, how they deal with it, because I want them to have a way to deal with it in a fruitful way, not in a destructive way, like you're not my friend anymore, bye forever. And then all these words that they choose, all these, you know I would always jump in if I see it and give examples of how else to right, because if not, they just do more of that, always continuously.
Speaker 3:And that's maybe something Si wouldn't see or necessarily have an eye on, but I have uncompromising an eye on it. So I think this is how we kind of complement each other without telling each other. You tell, like Si telling me, tell your son about how to deal with money. I would never. I mean, I know money is precious but I wouldn't bring out the theories around it. But he would, and it's fine and please continue doing that. I will have my eye on you know, a kind human being, being fair, all these kind of things which are important to me, which is my way of living. I think that's what I try to say.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, and it's beautiful. To be honest, it really brings tears to my eyes when you say by you, by being a beautiful couple, actually already will give so much to your children, and I think that's what we 100% agree on as well. We always said happy parents happy children it is so important? Because when they see this dynamic, you know a happy dynamic, a dynamic where you can talk about things you know. I mean, whatever they see, I think they're copycats, right, I mean, and they take in everything that's happening.
Speaker 1:If you're confident in yourself. I totally relate to that. I mean, if you're confident in yourself, then you're confident in your couple, then the child sees that and they become confident. If you love yourself, you love your couple, the child sees that and they'll love themselves and they'll learn how to love somebody else the same way. Right, because they're just pure sponges, but we always said that happy parents happy baby.
Speaker 2:And even with the relationship right. So when we two met, I mean both of us were having the time of our lives, we were so happy partying and enjoying life in Beijing and we met and both of us I mean we weren't looking for anyone, but I think that was the secret I mean we're both so happy with ourselves and exactly, we're so complete.
Speaker 2:We didn't, you know we weren't, we weren't. So I never put any of my hopes or what. So, like you say, right, you cannot. You cannot put that on someone else. It's not your child's jobs. To make you happy, First you need to do that to yourself and then you know, then in a partnership you can be happy and then you'll be happy in a family situation.
Speaker 1:It's like we weren't trying to fill out our own puzzles. We were trying to create a new puzzle together, but our puzzle was already complete and then we're like, okay, these two pieces can go together and it makes a whole new puzzle.
Speaker 2:Like another, like an extension.
Speaker 1:Like an extension.
Speaker 2:And I loved we had that another couple mentioning to us having kids. It's just adding another dimension to life and I think that that was just so beautiful.
Speaker 3:I can sign that, yeah, like I don't know how many dimensions the life would have, but it's definitely 10 D Yep.
Speaker 4:And just to talk to that right, because we've also seen relationships. You know, one of the things of being in Dubai is most relationships are fairly stable compared to, for example, germany, where 90% of the couples that you know they have kids have broken up right and you also see it. If somebody doesn't take care of their own mental well being, in their own mental game, I mean you know they're, they're they're awful in in the relationship. When they're awful in the relationship, the kids damage, collateral is just it's inevitable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I mean you can really see how the parents are through, how the kid is.
Speaker 1:I say a lot of times if you see that the kids know, I mean, if you see that the kids are hectic or something like that, it's because there is a problem on the parents level, right, because they're just sponges, you can, they they kind of reflect. I always think, like I look at my son and there's a lot of reflection. You're like oh, like there there's moments of self reflection inside of it, right. But then of course they are because he's around you a lot and he's a sponge and he absorbs stuff and he does the same stuff you kind of do and you're like all right, that makes a lot of sense that if you're, you have a hectic life and stuff like that, your child is also going to be kind of hectic. If you're more of a cooler and calm and everything, the child is also going to be reflective. Of course, not 100%, but there are going to be pieces of that right that you taught him through who you are. Right, it's just, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:And I think it is time to come to our final question, because it's a beautiful one, and I think, yeah, so we've given the chance. What would you like to express to your partner regarding their involvement and growth throughout this entire parenting journey? So now it's really about addressing to each other your words.
Speaker 4:That is a nice question.
Speaker 2:Who wants to start? Jill is pointing to Zai.
Speaker 3:I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Just to give him a little bit of time. Actually, Marcy also pointed to Adam last time.
Speaker 2:That is right. That is right. Well, it's a man first, right we're 2023 exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4:I think for me, when I met Jill's sister-in-law, she was, or she is, a really good parent. I learned a ton from that relationship and I was just hoping, you know, that I would end up in a partnership where that was going to be the case, right, because Jill would be, you know, the parent that I always wanted and that ended up becoming a given that it's just. I can trust her to raise the kids with the same values that I have. But I think the thing which I am most grateful for is that the fundamental that we, the fundamental belief that I have, is also shared, that we have to be good as individuals, then as a couple and then as parents.
Speaker 4:And I've seen again and again where there were so many instances, right, where as individuals we could have just let that slip, and she never did. And so for me it's just been outstanding to see how much Jill takes care of herself and takes care of you know who she is in the relationship. So even when I'm not in a good place, she is. And it makes me feel like and I often think this right that I could not have made a better decision. And you know, the irony of it, right, is I knew in the first two, three days that this was the person I was going to marry and have kids with. And yet I didn't ask for five years and in hindsight I wouldn't have changed that. But it's, it's amazing that when we got married, when we got together, when we had kids, the change in the relationship dynamic was like nothing. It just flowed into each other.
Speaker 2:Because of that, yeah, it definitely was. How is she going to respond to that Amazing?
Speaker 3:No, my heart is full, okay. So I love you, baby. First and foremost, thank you so much for sharing. I think what I really really appreciate and always feel like bubbled up in love bubbles, is that you see me and what I put into everything, like it might may not be a big financial chunk, it may not be, you know, whatever biggest meal in the world, but, like I do a lot every day and it's always with the mindset of that, you know that I'm good, that we're good, that the babies are good, and I feel that you see that. You see that you know, if I hold the space in a difficult situation or a difficult week, or when you are, like you know, having all this pressure all over you, that you see, I do not add to that, like I do not, right, I do not want to, because I see you for what you need in that moment, and that's not me adding, nagging or complaining about things. But so you see that it takes a lot of mental effort not to explode, because I had a long day with the kids too, and you would just, yeah, I would put myself together, not to, you know, leave this on you and you see it like two days, two days later, one day later, or even at the end of the evening, that you feel okay, baby, thanks, you know, like I know I had to edit you today and you didn't call me back and stuff like that. So I do feel that.
Speaker 3:And then obviously there's the cooking and there's like our health in the family and, you know, not having junk food and like this, all those little things right, which I feel I'm trying just to maximize goodness.
Speaker 3:And you see it like small aspects, big aspects, and obviously, yeah, I feel supported in any shape or form. So when I ask for something, you do not give me any big barriers. And I guess I also learned in our relationship that there are things you can ask which you never know what comes back. And then those things like do I really want this from him? Like I do evaluate, like, just because someone else gets, I don't know, the dishwasher cleaned every day, is this actually something I would every day be happy about if he does it and actually don't care, like it's okay, I can totally do it. But everyone else is saying they should help more or they should do more and I feel, luckily, I do not need to follow that what everyone else is. I just see, you see me, you see what I do, you see who I am, hence you appreciate me and thank you for that.
Speaker 1:I was very beautiful.
Speaker 2:That was beautiful.
Speaker 1:Appreciation. I totally, I totally get you.
Speaker 2:I think that's so important. I see you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And nice, nice last words for this podcast.
Speaker 1:I would say Exactly, beautiful words.
Speaker 2:I love you, honey, bunny I love you too.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys so much for joining us. It was really, really great. I think we need another podcast with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so too. I think there's a lot more to say, but no, really appreciate your honesty, openness and was really nice to have you here.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but there is no third child, right, right.
Speaker 2:Actually, I hear our child out of the door. I think it's about to come in, so let's call it a day.
Speaker 1:Guys, thank you again for joining us. I love you, my honey bunny.
Speaker 2:Love you too.
Speaker 1:I'll see you.
Speaker 2:Bye, bye.