A State of the Industry

Jason and Bri take a candid look at the current state of the craft beer industry—and why everything feels off right now. With recent brewery closures across Western New York and beyond, they reflect on beloved spots like Flying Bison, Fifth Frame, Froth, and the uncertainty surrounding fan-favorite K2. The conversation explores what’s driving this industry “course correction,” from economic pressures and rising costs to oversaturation and changing consumer habits.

The discussion dives deeper into generational shifts, health-conscious drinking, and why younger drinkers are consuming less alcohol—or skipping it altogether. Jason and Bri unpack the rise of NA beers, mocktails, THC alternatives, and the growing expectation that breweries offer more than just beer, including food, cocktails, and family-friendly spaces. Thoughtful, honest, and beer-in-hand as always, this episode is a heartfelt look at where the industry has been—and where it may be headed next. 

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Transcript

Jason:

The Buffalo Brews podcast. State of the industry right now is it's weird. Everything's weird.

It seems like almost every couple of days I'm texting you like this happened, that happened, this person's closing, these guys are closing.

Bri:

I'm getting really sad because there are some really great places.

Jason:

Yeah.

Bri:

Really great.

Jason:

Recent history, Heroes Brewing, Rochester, Sad Boys down in Larkinville, Marquis down in Port, is it Portville? We never got a chance to get down there, Monster Beach, we talked about in the last episode. Flying Bison, one of the original six.

Bri:

Right. That was the original brewery. Like when you would have craft, right, when you had craft brewing, that's all you had.

Jason:

Yeah.

Bri:

Yeah.

Jason:

Fifth Frame was a recent announcement out in Rochester.

Bri:

Yeah.

Jason:

So they no longer had their city location, they were in Irondequoit, they closed that down suddenly. Froth was another one that was a very surprising decision. And then they said that they're still going to be distributing.

I don't know how their operation is going to work. I've never even seen them distributed though. You can see some of their- So maybe they'll do more?

Yeah. You can see some of their lollipop varieties in stores. But not much outside the lollipop varieties, personal opinion.

I mean, I just, I think the only thing that I've ever bought from them religiously was their PB&J Sour, but then since then I've kind of moved on to other PB&J Sours.

Bri:

Yeah. I wasn't a big Froth fan, it just wasn't my cup of tea.

Jason:

Yeah.

Bri:

I don't know. I knew it was like a younger crowd every time we were there, and maybe it's just the dynamic of the younger crowd is changing, which changed the amount of people that were going. I don't know.

Who knows why everybody- Right.

Jason:

And I know we have some uncertainty of places like K2.

Bri:

I don't want to talk about it.

Jason:

As well that it's on the podium.

Bri:

Guys, I'm so upset about this. I'm literally upset. If they don't reopen, I will actually feel a piece of devastating, like I don't even know the words.

I'm like, I'm just flabbergasted as to what to come out for words if they don't reopen because it is one of my favorite breweries ever, ever. The space, great. The beers, great.

It was like that I would go to Rochester just for this place.

Jason:

We've done it before, several times.

Bri:

Right.

Jason:

We went there for the Advent boxes. We went there one time for this pumpkin beer.

Bri:

Yeah. I just drive all the way out there to drink there. And what is that for us?

So a rendezvous there, 45 minutes? No, hour. Hour?

Hour, I'd say.

Jason:

Solid hour.

Bri:

So we're just getting in the car and driving an hour just to have beers because they're amazing.

Jason:

Right. Yeah.

Bri:

So I mean, I will probably just cry real tears. And it's no joke. That's a tough one.

I keep hoping that whatever's going on with them, they figure it out, fix it, and move forward. Because I feel like they have enough people who love them. It wasn't about the amount of people who were there drinking beer or buying beer or anything.

It was their poor business decision and choices.

Jason:

Too big too soon or too big, period.

Bri:

I don't know.

Jason:

I mean, it's not where I want to go in the debate because I mean, their business is their business. I know what I know.

Bri:

Right.

Jason:

Right.

Bri:

We have no idea the inner workings of anything because I'm not involved in it. It's only what you can read that's put out there to the public. But honestly, this one will be like, this will just tear my heart out.

This would be a tough one. Yeah, for sure.

Jason:

Yeah.

Bri:

I mean, other ones, I'm sad to see them go, but this one will rip my heart straight out.

Jason:

In recent years, we've lost places like Pressure Drop, another one of the original six. Their recipes were bought out by Ellicottville. I liked that place.

Flying Bisons went to Hamburg. And it's just, it's a tough time. I know that the New York State Brewers Association, so Paul Leone is the executive director.

He said that, you know, there's a, it's going through a huge course correction right now. And I mean, we've seen it firsthand here in Buffalo, Rochester. We've seen a few rumblings in Erie.

Some things are happening in Erie as well.

Bri:

Oh, yeah. Didn't you say the, whatchamacallit, that Voodoo in Erie?

Jason:

Voodoo, yeah. Voodoo Brewing in Erie. So Voodoo is one of the few franchise breweries.

They're all over. They're in multiple states as well. So I know like they have State College PA.

They have one in like Cleveland. They had, so this is the Erie location.

Bri:

Maybe they're just not getting enough traffic. It could be. Or maybe the lease was up.

I mean, again, we don't know the inner workings of everything.

Jason:

But Voodoo is one of those places, like you enjoy going to Voodoo because it's a chill vibe. It's a great atmosphere.

Bri:

Yeah.

Jason:

So, you know, with things going on in the industry right now, you're seeing that shift.

Bri:

And who knows? Like, it would be interesting to like really look at the U.S. and wonder how many have closed across the U.S., right? I mean, I know that we as Western New Yorkers are just super blessed to be like saturated with so many food and beverage choices.

Like we really are a city of like eating and drinking, right? You know, there's so many places to go to. Nothing's ever overflowing.

I mean, they can be when they have events or whatever. But if it is, you could go to someplace else where you're not driving far away or just saying, forget it, we'll go home, right? Because there's always someplace else you can go to.

Jason:

Yeah. Pre-COVID, 535 breweries across New York State. I think right now we're at about the 500 range right now because the bubble has burst and it burst.

We knew it was bursting in 2023. It was just a matter of the strongest survive and the weaker ones, unfortunately, have to fold up shop. There was a point where there was a new brewery opening every week, week and a half, two weeks.

It seemed like everywhere you were going, there was a new place doing an opening and you just couldn't get everywhere to try everybody's wares. So, you know, and a lot of things that were blamed on it. There's a lot of talk about the tariffs that have been going on.

I mean, tariffs are weird. It's politics, it's economy. Then you've got the economy that's so uncertain right now.

Bri:

Well, right. I think there's just a lot of things that go into it. And I think there's not one, this is my opinion, but I think there's not one major thing, right?

It's a lot of little things like the cost of things are going up for everyone. Now do you take your extra money and go out and buy beer that has now also gone up in price or do you stay home, save the expensive gas, save the expensive, you know what I mean? And just kind of like chill at home because also don't forget your Netflix has gone up and your Hulu has gone up and the price of the food that you're eating at your house has gone up and, you know, and my pay is not following everything that's rising.

Jason:

No, and it really isn't.

Bri:

So I feel like that's probably the biggest thing in my opinion is when people have to really make those choices, you know, how they want to allocate their funds, you're going to end up allocating your funds in something that is, you know, more serious, like my rising cost of my gas bill, my rising cost of my electric bill, the rising cost of my car payment, my car insurance, my cell phone, when everything keeps going up and up and up and employers can't just keep paying us more and more and more because all of their costs are going up too, you know, this is what happens. And I think it's not even just like the beer industry that's feeling this. I feel like it's just the service industry that's feeling this.

Jason:

Think about the number of restaurants that we've seen close, you know, abroad. Places that we enjoyed are like, oh, well, let's, you know, we should go over there. Oh, what do you mean?

They're not open anymore. Right.

Bri:

Yeah. And first people, I think, try to minimize the amount of days they're open, you know, to try to save some costs and then it goes into, you know, all right, well, we'll stay open all these days, pay our staff, but then, you know, we're going to have to raise the prices of everything, food and beverage wise, because now we have to pay our staff more and so on and so forth. So yeah, it's just a crazy, weird time.

Jason:

One of the things we were talking about was K2 a moment ago. We have their pumpkin ale. So we had a couple of these left in the cooler, left over from one of our spontaneous trips out there in the fall.

But I'm going to crack this bad boy open here. I don't want to let you do the honors for the poor, but this was one of the best pumpkin beers we had of 2025.

Bri:

Yeah. I feel like it was.

Jason:

Well, believe us, we tried a bunch of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there we go.

Bri:

Here's yours.

Jason:

Again, cold, blustery, crazy weather here in, you know, in Buffalo. And since we don't have football to talk about, we'll talk about beer.

Bri:

I mean, you could talk about football, you just can't talk about Buffalo Bills.

Jason:

I don't want to talk about it.

Bri:

All right. Cheers.

Jason:

Cheers. Cheers.

Bri:

Mm. Delicious. Oh, K2, fix it.

I love you. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think, like, I don't know how you have this written, but I think the other big factor in a lot of these places is youth. Yeah.

Jason:

Generational gaps. That was actually the very next note I had in here.

Bri:

Yeah. Yeah. So I work with a lot of younger kids going to college to become lawyers or, you know, whatever they're trying to do in their lives.

And we talk a lot about, like, you know, going out and what's everybody up to and da-da-da-da-da. And I can tell you, there is a bunch of reasons why, but they're not drinking, okay? And my son is an exact, like, group of kids who are making the conscious decision to not drink.

You know, he does not want to consume any alcohol because he does not want it for his health. You know, he will tell me all the things that alcohol is doing to me, you know, with whatever, you know, the calorie intake, the carbon take, you know, he tries to tell you what it does to your brain. It will go on and on and on because there's infinite amounts of things on the Internet that will tell you why drinking is so bad for you.

So obviously he's in the military, so health is a big thing for him. And he wants to try to figure out, like, how can I stay super focused and super healthy? That means no drinking, no smoking, no drugs.

No, I mean, you can't do drugs in the military, but he's just saying no to all of this, you know? And so now the younger crowd, they either say they go out and have a drink and then they don't drink for the rest of the night. They milk one drink or they don't drink at all.

And they look for places with an N.A., a mocktail, a something that isn't going to be alcohol because A, they don't want to get pulled over driving, B, they don't want to pay for an Uber, C, they don't want to be too drunk that they don't know what's happening. They don't like what it does to their bodies health wise. And it's a scary time out there.

Like when you go places, if you're not sitting there conscious of what you're doing with your beverage, somebody could easily put something in your drink, you know? And it probably isn't going to happen where I'm going. I'm old now, right?

I'm going to just local breweries where there's, I don't know, people that are in their forties and fifties and whatever hanging out, you know? But you have to think of like when these kids, these younger groups of people go out, you know what I mean? I don't know.

So that's what I have from just listening to my crowd of 21 to 28, you know, of things that are going on. And I mean, I think it's not maybe the biggest impact, but I think it's definitely a piece. Yeah.

Jason:

Recent Gallup polls are indicating that we're at a new low in the U.S. regarding adults who consume alcohol as a whole, 54%. That's down from 60% just two years ago or three years ago almost. Young people are consuming alcohol at a rate down 9% from that same timeframe.

So what is very little in the beer industry that a lot of the experts would put that to is because keeping up with the Joneses, staying with the trends, innovation. What do we know? We just had a Beer of the Year episode and we're talking about raspberry infused Dole Whip sours and, you know, cake put into beer.

But you can only do that so many times. And if you're competing with the people across the street, you can only do that so many times until it's like, well, what's next? And if you're in a town, and we've talked about niche breweries in the past, if you're fortunate enough to have a niche brewery, you can throw something like that fun that might bring the out of towner in because face it, people like to pilgrimage for a unique drink.

Again, we drive to Rochester for an hour just to try something cool.

Bri:

And I think if you can have a successful business where you're serving a big variety of alcoholic, non-alcoholic food view, is it family friendly? Is it like all these things? Look at how busy like Whalen is in the summertime, right?

You want to know why? Because of their outdoor space, right? So you can go there and you can have a beer, an amazing cocktail, because we've had some great ones that they make their food all outside while your kids can play and run around.

And there's outdoor games and things like that. And so now you've made it family friendly in the daytime. And then you go at night, and you have that same outdoor vibe, where you have the lights, the games still like cornhole and what's that other thing bocce, right?

You know, all this stuff. So you're like outside enjoying being able to be outdoors, which we as Buffalonians, that's like a thing. We like want it in the summertime.

You know what I mean? So I feel like when you can like bring a whole bunch of those things together, you're going to be successful. And I think when you can't bring all those things together, I think that's really these smaller places that may not have all those things, might be failing, even if they make a great beer.

You know what I mean?

Jason:

So you're, so now, so good, because this is kind of a jump forward, but I'm going to jump forward and then jump back as we tend to do, is that you're talking about a switch up for places where they have more survivability is instead of just beer, they're cocktails, they're N.A. selections, they're mocktail selections. We're going to touch on that in just a moment. And then food.

And then you're talking about food. Yeah. Okay.

Bri:

Because let's say you can bring somebody who doesn't drink alcohol at all. If they have a great food menu, they're going to eat, they're going to drink soda, they're going to have something. And then they can bring their friends who are also like, yeah, I want a really cold beer and an awesome burger.

You know?

Jason:

I'm going to bring that, I'm going to bring that up in a moment because we're going to talk about the future of the industry as well, because that's the main point right there. One of the things I also want to bring, because we're talking about generational gaps, we're talking about how younger people are drinking less, and that's okay, is that you're looking at now that there's more variety out there in the world to quote unquote unwind. So it's not young people just going out to a brewery, having a couple, and then going on their merry way, however they choose to do it.

But now you have other reasons why people may not go out so much. New York State especially now, we have, whatever, THC infused seltzers. We have legalized marijuana, we have cannabis.

Bri:

What was the brewery that was just at a holiday affair that we were at that was sampling that? THC. Oh, I can't remember.

It's the one, Other Half? Other Half. Maybe it was Other Half, yeah.

It's the one Tony was trying. Yeah. Yeah.

So there's one that serves beer in those, yeah?

Jason:

Yeah. And I mean, so there's other ways that people can, again, quote unquote, so it's a big, it's a shifting landscape, so it's a big factor in things right now in that consideration. The other one, something that I wrote down is now with the push, and you brought up how Kieran is, because he wants the more healthier approach, then you get people like big time podcast influencers like, say, Joe Rogan, who are talking, because he is braggadocious about his sobriety almost to a nauseating point.

Bri:

Oh, I see a ton of stuff online where people are bragging about, I've been sober, sober, sober. Okay. Sober is the cool thing to be right now.

Jason:

And so now I'm going to bring up myself, because I do have an opinion about this. So my father was an alcoholic for many years, and then that all changed very suddenly in 1990 in a night. And it was kind of a change the approach or else kind of situation.

The behavior. Yeah. He didn't have a choice.

Right. So from that day on, literally that day on, which I was, I applauded him for being able to quit drinking and start just working your ass off. Right.

So I didn't drink until I was literally 21 years old, what I call myself the biggest lightweight on the planet, because I could drink one alcoholic drink and be like, oh, this is weird. Like, and I was like, really, I can understand where things were coming from is like how you could get into a behavior just like painkillers. How you can get into a behavior by abusing something like that.

But you got, you know- How old were you when I met you?

Bri:

20, 30? I don't even know. Young, 22, 23, perhaps.

I mean- Well, how old are you now? And then subtract 27 years from that.

Jason:

You're a jerk. I just turned 53 last month. Thank you for bringing that up.

Bri:

Happy birthday. But- To you. Oh my gosh.

Whatever.

[Speaker 3]

Okay. Sorry.

Bri:

But the point is, is even when I met you back in the day, you were always our DD because you would either have none or one. Yeah. And that was it.

Jason:

And the big thing for me was, you know, shortly, I mean, I was 20, so yeah, I had my first alcoholic drink at 21, but I got sick with my Crohn's disease at 23, I want to say it was. It was 1997, so- And I met you in 26. Oh no, 25.

Oh my gosh. So 25. But I didn't really even drink before then.

And then I just couldn't drink at all because it's just not good for my disease.

Bri:

Right.

Jason:

Right. Now, you know, 2012, fast forward, I have my surgery. It's a different story.

Now my body reacts differently to everything, which is funny because I can get drunk like this if I was going to have, let's say, enjoy myself, but I come down just as fast.

Bri:

Right.

Jason:

So, but where I was going with this is that I'm not the type of person that gets drinking to blackout drunk.

Bri:

Well, and I think that's also the big change. I think that people who do drink, like, okay, so I would say, like, I am not, obviously we do this podcast, so we're like regular beer drinkers. We love to go out to places, try new stuff, but we are drinking one or two and then we're done.

Right. We're, you know, and, you know, if there's... So we're not getting out there to get drunk.

Jason:

Right. And if it's something where we go to multiple places in a day, it's much like we would approach a wine trail. There's, there's a balance of, there's food and timeouts and hydration.

And we do a lot of tasters. Because I just, I want to be responsible about it, drink responsibly. We've pushed that for, for years on the podcast.

I mean, you know, about cutting in, almost cutting into our sixth year. So it's easy for me to, it's easy for me to be able to come up and say that, you know, it's a hobby. It's a fun hobby.

It's an expensive hobby. But I enjoy doing it. But at the same time...

Right.

Bri:

I'm not crushing a 30 pack of Bush. I'm enjoying...

Jason:

Nobody should be drinking Bush.

Bri:

I'm enjoying like the multiple layers of like a craft beer.

Jason:

Yeah. But I understand that the health benefit of it. So me, I, you know, we're in the gym, what, three times a week, sometimes.

And for you, sometimes four.

Bri:

Correct. But what we do is we do no drinking in the week. NAs, if we really want to have like a taco Tuesday with a beer.

You know, we do an NA beer, but you know, we pretty much try to stay health conscious. And I've said all the time, I could probably stop drinking beer and do like a dry month and see how much weight I would lose. But I don't know, that's the idea of like, why would you not want to eat the cake?

I could die tomorrow. That's saying eat a cake every day, but I'm saying still enjoy your life. So if like, you know, for us, we love to go, you know, have a craft beer, go hit up a brewery, you know, I personally, I love draft beer more than anything.

So I am that person who wants to drive to the brewery and have that beer because I want it to be fresh from that tap. And for me, that is 100% better than a canned beer any day. And I know people will argue with me up and down.

And they'll say, I bet you if I poured one that's a draft and one that's a can, you'll never know the difference. And I beg to differ. I personally feel like I could tell you which one is the draft.

So I mean...

Jason:

Some people take it too seriously.

Bri:

I just, I mean, and I'll drink a canned beer. I'm not opposed to it. But I really, really, really, like for me, what we go, we drink a draft beer and then we're like, oh, I love this so much.

Is it canned? You know what I mean? And it might end up in the cooler.

Right. So I don't know. It's very interesting.

It's interesting to wonder and think about, you know, what's going to happen. Well, what has happened and then what's going to happen forward, you know? So I don't know.

I mean, if you think about our parents, our parents weren't drinking craft beer. I mean, I do remember my dad back in the day going to like Brew Pub, Flying Bison. My dad was like a big fan of Rusty Chain.

Like if he would go out with his friends, they would go to Flying Bison. And that was the beer my dad would have. Rusty Chain is to this day still would be one of my desert island beers.

He's not the person who's going to try all these crazy craft, you know, concoctions. Right. And even when I would like say, hey, you want to try this or whatever to my dad, like over all these years when we were drinking different things and I would bring them over whatever on holidays or something that I thought he would really like.

He'd take a sip and he'd go, that's all right, but I'll drink a Molson. Sure. To each their own.

So it's like, I feel like I wonder if it is like you are capturing this small audience, you know?

Jason:

Right. It's interesting to think about. And me, I always joke domestic is a swear word on this podcast.

Yeah. But where am I going on Friday? I'm going to Empire State Wrestling.

They're going to have an event in Niagara Falls. But the place where we're holding it, they don't have craft beer. I would just not drink beer.

Well, I mean, but if my friend of mine wants to have something and I'll have something with him, like I'll- I'll drink a Bud Light. I'll buck up, you know, Mick Light, whatever. No, I'd drink a Bud Light.

I just can't do the, I don't know. For some reason, I can't do the Canadian stuff. Me neither.

Bri:

Oh, but your neighbor, right? The guy who lives on the other side of your duplex? Yeah.

Budweiser. That's all he drinks. Yeah.

Budweiser. That's okay. To each their own.

We have given him some fun things to try. That's all right. He only wants to drink Budweiser.

Jason:

That's all right. He tries it.

Bri:

And here you are, another person in their 60s. You know what I mean? So it's interesting to wonder, like, what is it, like, what age group were we really into all of these things and what age group isn't?

Right. And then you look at somebody like Josh, my oldest, 28, gonna be 29. Oh, God help me, closer to 30 in a couple of months.

And he's really digging this, right? Like, he was the kid who would just drink, like, whatever. He was a big Sam Adams.

Jason:

Sure.

Bri:

Oh, yeah. That's what Josh was always, like, a big Sam Adams. And then I started saying, like, maybe you could try this.

Maybe you could try that. Maybe you could try this. And now he's, like, really into, like, hey, I'm willing to try that.

Hey, that flavor is awesome. Like, you know, so it's kind of like, I don't know. Do we have to, like, push these kids into, like, doing this stuff?

Like, not being, like, push them in. But you know what I mean? Like, kind of expose them to this stuff and, you know, say, give it a try.

Like, there's so much fun to be had, you know? Like, responsible fun, where you could just go out and have a beer, you know? Right, right.

Or, like, go get a taster, see what you like.

Jason:

Yeah, it's nice to be able to dig and dabble with different things. That's what I like about, you know, him cutting his teeth on different things, different events, you know, to be able to go out and try a variety of things. And he gets things that he's like, that was really cool.

Let's, you know, be able to go to an event and go, let's go back and try this again.

Bri:

Or he's like, that was really bad. I don't like that style.

Jason:

Get those, too.

Bri:

And that's fine. Like, that's how you figure out what you like. I'm not a Hefeweizen girl.

I will continually try stuff, but I can tell you that I probably will never like one. I'm not a farmhouse girl. I could probably tell you I'm never going to like one.

But that's to each their own.

Jason:

I'm going to shift the conversation back forward, because we're talking about the adaptation of the industry. We're talking about how food, introducing places that have food, that have cocktail, mocktail. I know recently we just did a mocktail class at Hartman's Distilling.

And what a fun experience that was.

Bri:

What was the fancy room that we were in?

Jason:

Barrel Room? Yeah, it was their version of the Barrel Room. I don't know if it has a special name or not.

Bri:

It is like a special room.

Jason:

It's like your speakeasy kind of Barrel Room kind of thing.

Bri:

She said you can make a reservation for it separately. So it's kind of like a little quiet behind the scenes place. Literally behind the bar.

Yeah.

Jason:

So while the chaos is going on out there, you can't hear any of it.

Bri:

It's so funny. But yeah, it was really cool. The lighting is low and it's real chill.

They have their own menu back there. A bunch of different stuff. And they have an increased mocktail list in that little like reservation only area.

But they do have mocktails. And she did say if there is a one that you know of, they will make it. So if you've been in this special room and saw the special list and there's something you want, they will make it out front.

Jason:

We were able to make a Jedi Mind Trick. Oh, gosh. That marshmallow?

Yeah, the toasted marshmallow, simple syrup with yuzu syrup. And there was a couple other things in there. Delicious.

You took a picture of it. Tiny rubber duck on top.

Bri:

Yeah, you took a picture of the menu. But it was super exciting and fun. And they did it for dry January.

But she said that the class was so popular because our class was full. We did the earlier one at 630. Yeah.

It packed.