Dreamgirls

And I am telling you this podcast is worth it...

Sequins, soulful belting, and the harsh realities of the music business take center stage as we dive into Dreamgirls, the iconic musical that took 41 years to reach London. We unpack the fascinating production history, revealing how Jennifer Holliday nearly walked away from the role that would define her career—twice! The original plan even had Effie dying at the end of Act 1, a far cry from the powerful journey audiences now know and love.

Beneath the dazzling costumes (all 460 of them!) and 205 wigs lies a thinly veiled portrayal of The Supremes and Motown that creators have long denied but feels undeniable. We explore how Curtis Taylor mirrors Berry Gordy Jr., Effie's replacement echoes Florence Ballard's sidelined career, and why Diana Ross reportedly refused to ever see the show. The parallels are striking, offering a revealing glimpse into the real stories behind the glitz.

More than just entertainment, Dreamgirls stands as a cultural milestone addressing racial boundaries in the 1960s music industry and showcasing Black artists breaking into mainstream success. The women's journey through a male-dominated business world culminates in powerful moments of solidarity when they finally stand up to manipulation and rebuild their fractured relationships. Through showstoppers like "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" (which we analyze as one of musical theatre's most vocally demanding pieces) and "Family," the show delivers timeless lessons: stand by your friends, recognize that being the favorite doesn't always last, and remember that true success means viewing yourself as part of something greater. Whether you're a longtime fan or discovering Dreamgirls for the first time, this story of ambition, betrayal and resilience continues to resonate with anyone who's ever fought to make their dreams come true.

End of MLL

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Hello and welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo. We're your hosts.

Speaker 2 0:29

Tim and LJ. Today and every week we will be discussing musicals, but specifically what they taught us.

Speaker 1 0:36

I am mortified. Do you know what that's taught me? What? Don't go to the toilet when you still have your microphone on.

Speaker 2 0:44

You didn't have to share that with our 10,000 downloads.

Speaker 1 0:47

Well, I share everything with our 10,000 downloads, absolutely mortified. I can't. How do you come back from this? How do you come? I actually, I think I'm going to have to tap out of it.

Speaker 2 0:58

Never podcast again.

Speaker 1 0:59

I don't think I can do this episode. I need to tap out wise up.

Speaker 2 1:03

I need to go and rock in the corner for a couple of minutes it's funny, it's funny, it's funny. At least it's a life lesson.

Speaker 1 1:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:12

A life lesson I taught you Don't go to the toilet with a live mic on.

Speaker 1 1:17

Yeah, nobody told me it was still live, just saying, oh, it's like going to the dressing room and your mic's still being live and everybody hearing you.

Speaker 2 1:28

Oh, I know, and they go the dressing room and your mic still being live and everybody hearing you.

Speaker 1 1:32

Oh, I know which makes it. Yeah, makes it 10, 100 times, yeah, really, yeah. Has that ever?

Speaker 2 1:36

happened to you?

Speaker 1 1:37

no too much of a professional. Well, I mean, you can't control your microphone. Lauren hello, no offense to you. I just know never to speak no, to be fair, I'm quite good. I don't speak in the wings very rarely. Would I?

Speaker 2 1:51

would I would I have spoken in the wings because, let's be honest, I don't perform anymore uh, but that was ingrained in us, though, and I find it really hard whenever I am chaperoning and you know there's no speaking in the wings and maybe some children aren't aware of that and you're like shh, and they're still talking, and you're, and they're swinging on the blacks and you're like Tasha Todd it's the wings might as well be on stage.

Speaker 1 2:23

So our listeners know you're putting your finger to your mouth to be quiet just in case they're all going. What's happened?

Speaker 2 2:29

it's all gone quiet to your mouth to be quiet, just in case they're all going oh that what's happened?

Speaker 1 2:33

it's all gone quiet. It was it was Lauren doing her. Be quiet.

Speaker 2 2:37

Finger across your mouth, boys and girls yeah, because you can't go, shh, because you're making the same noise so you've, got to do it but we're doing a podcast so we just need to, you know, describe what we're doing. A podcast, I know, so we just need to, you know Audio describe what we're doing. Where would I be Without you?

Speaker 1 2:53

Anyway.

Speaker 2 2:55

Anyway, watch your theatre, musical theatre news.

Speaker 1 2:56

Can we get a jingle?

Speaker 2 2:57

I know I feel I need a jingle. I sang one last week and you didn't like it.

Speaker 1 3:03

Do better Go.

Speaker 2 3:06

Don't perform On the spot. I'm not. I'm a monkey.

Speaker 1 3:08

Can't get the staff these days it's.

Timothy's Theatre News

Speaker 2 3:11

Timothy's Theatre News Flat, I'm always flat, that's my singing style. Lies, absolutely lies.

Speaker 1 3:24

Anyway, we've mentioned it but we've got more information now. So the Great Gatsby, the musical, is making its UK premiere. So the West End is preparing to welcome the Great Gatsby from across the pond and the musical is going to open in the London.

Speaker 2 3:41

Coliseum.

Speaker 1 3:43

We're not playing about here, are we? We're going for the big one, the Coliseum this April, like it's so close, I loved it. We're going for the big one the Coliseum this April, like it's so close.

Speaker 2 3:51

I love that their announcement was like outside the Savoy and it was so fitting that setting.

Speaker 1 4:01

But yeah, it's. Why not go into somewhere like the Savoy, though? Like that would have been perfect, but I'm kind of thinking it's not going to be around for long.

Speaker 2 4:09

Oh, do you think so?

Speaker 1 4:10

I just have a funny feeling Big, massive venue because it's going to be limited. And it's got some really good names attached to it, so they probably aren't going to be in a long-term run Like big style big hitters going on here, so Jamie Moscato, who is of Moulin Rouge, the musical fame, and many many, many more, Many things yeah, but that's the one that I knew him for the most, oh.

Speaker 2 4:37

Heathers as well. He played.

Speaker 1 4:38

JD. In Heathers, he is taking on the role of Jay Gatsby and Frances Miley McCann, who was Bonnie and Clyde. She is going to be playing Daisy Buchanan. Yep, she is going to be playing Daisy Buchanan, including other massive hitters like our very own Rachel Tucker.

Speaker 2 4:57

Amber Davies.

Speaker 1 4:58

Amber Davies Joel.

Speaker 2 4:59

Montague.

Speaker 1 5:00

Joel Montague.

Speaker 2 5:01

Corbin Blue.

Speaker 1 5:02

Corbin Flippin Blue he's hop skipping and jumping across the pond, so that's really exciting. So, uh, yeah, plays in the london coliseum from the 11th of april to oh, to the 7th of september.

Speaker 2 5:20

So it is a short. It's actually here, yeah, right in front of me oh, okay, there you go, it's as if I like forecast the future.

Speaker 1 5:27

You did, I actually just didn't read to them the minutes.

Speaker 2 5:32

There's some behind the scenes of that at the minute because they're in currently. Right now they're in rehearsals. So if you want to go into some of those guys socials and you'll see some stuff, it is actually really interesting.

Speaker 1 5:40

I'm looking forward to seeing a bit more of it. The Devil Wears Prada, which has been in the Dominion for a while now. It is starring Vanessa Williams. It has extended its run at the. Dominion until the 3rd of January 2023, with 200,000 new tickets now available.

Speaker 2 6:03

I know People are going crazy for it.

Speaker 1 6:05

You know, for a new musical Happy Days. It seems to be working and going well. So, yeah, that's exciting. And then the last piece of news that I have is also very exciting Golden Globe winner Rachel Ziegler has now been announced as the person who is going to be playing Eva Perron in the Summer London Palladium production of Evita.

Speaker 2 6:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1 6:33

Is Jamie Lloyd directing that yeah. I think that's going to be class.

Speaker 2 6:37

Do you think so? I think so, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 6:40

I think I might want to see that.

Speaker 2 6:41

Oh really, Come on, I'll not be seeing that.

Speaker 1 6:44

You're not an Evita fan.

Speaker 2 6:46

No, do you want to scare me? For he loves you, he supports you. How can you not like that bit? No, I like that bit, I just don't like it. If not, how could he love me?

Speaker 1 7:00

Probably won't be too happy with you.

Speaker 2 7:01

No, I know there's been some really big announcements this week as well from lots of new musicals like Stereophonics musical it's their cast was was announced um the uh panto at the palladium. It's announced it's cast um.

Speaker 1 7:19

So yeah, this week is there's a bit of a real buzz of katherine tate yes, is taking on the lead, the lead in the Palladium Phantomime this Christmas.

Speaker 2 7:32

But, yeah, there's lots being announced, which is always exciting. Also this week announced, hugh Jackman and Sonia Fieldman are working together. They have created a new theatre company which is called Together, and it is going to be live theatre that is intimate and accessible. I love all of that.

Speaker 1 7:51

We'll see how accessible it is. Not be live theatre that is intimate and accessible. I love all of that. We'll see how accessible it is.

Speaker 2 7:55

Not that I'm being cynical. Well, it's going to be both UK and GSA based.

Speaker 1 7:59

Okay.

Speaker 2 7:59

Sweet, we'll see. Look forward to that.

Speaker 1 8:03

He's here at the moment, you know.

Speaker 2 8:05

He is here, hugh.

Speaker 1 8:06

Jackman.

Speaker 2 8:07

I think he's just gone home now because there was a big campaign in our city about trying to get him down, and it's kind of failed.

Speaker 1 8:13

I know he's gone down in my estimations. He didn't come to banker, it's not okay.

Speaker 2 8:17

No, it's not okay. Anne Boleyn the musical. They are currently looking for volunteer performers, now Volunteer performers for the world premiere of Anne Boleyn the musical, for the world premiere of Anne Boleyn the musical, and it's going to be at Anne's childhood home of Hever Castle.

Speaker 1 8:35

That's really cool. It's in her childhood home.

Speaker 2 8:36

Yeah, so just in case anybody I'm a volunteer so you don't get paid. Don't get paid, just come along for a jolly Just be involved in. Come along and get your head chopped off. Well, not actually just be involved in the musical?

Speaker 1 8:51

How do you know? Well, not actually Just be?

Speaker 2 8:53

involved in a musical. How do you know? That's how her story ends, or does it?

Speaker 1 8:57

Divorce beheaded died. Divorce beheaded survived. We got it.

Speaker 2 9:02

Well done, you got it, you got it.

Speaker 1 9:04

There we go.

Speaker 2 9:05

So some theatre news.

Speaker 1 9:07

Definitely needs a jingle.

Speaker 2 9:09

It does. We'll get that sorted.

Speaker 1 9:12

Anyway, on to this week.

Speaker 2 9:16

On to the glitz and the glam.

Speaker 1 9:17

The glitz and the glamour. What do you do when living the dream becomes a nightmare?

Speaker 2 9:23

Oh, that's a wee bit sad way of looking at this oh, fair enough, I mean. Okay, well, yeah, what do you do? Scream, snot coming out of your nose, cry, beg for a man to love you.

Speaker 1 9:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:37

Which nobody should ever do.

Speaker 1 9:39

I know, but it's a great movie.

Speaker 2 9:41

It's a great theatre, great theatre Great movie, oscar winning performances. We're talking Dreamgirls aren't we, we are.

Speaker 1 9:48

We're your Dreamgirls.

Speaker 2 9:51

Yeah, we're talking Dreamgirls, aren't we? We are, we're your Dreamgirls. Yeah, we'll make it happen. Oh, I thought it was happen. I thought it was. We'll make it happen.

Speaker 1 9:57

No, we'll make you happy.

Speaker 2 9:59

I'm deaf, I just make lyrics up.

Introducing Dreamgirls

Speaker 1 10:02

We do a podcast based on lyrics. We're looking at this musical this week. Yeah, no, what do you do when living a dream becomes a nightmare? Dream girls is a side long. Look at the music business and the true cost of chasing fame yeah, broadway musical.

Speaker 2 10:21

I love that it's called a broadway musical. And then whenever I looked into it I was like, yeah, because it took forever to come to the UK. Insane, like forever Insane. It was 40, no, or maybe it was 41 years since it opened before it went on a UK tour. Like that's a ridiculous amount of time.

Speaker 1 10:42

Yeah, it's quite. That's a really good thesis like to look into the whys. Yeah, why was that a thing? Why did that? Why did it take so long?

Speaker 2 10:54

Well, I've kind of maybe got a wee bit of information on that.

Speaker 1 10:57

You've done it, yeah, but anyway.

Speaker 2 10:59

yes, it's a Broadway musical Music by Henry Krieger.

Speaker 1 11:03

Well done?

Speaker 2 11:04

Who did the Tap Dance Kid? Have you ever heard of that musical?

Speaker 1 11:07

Yes, okay, I have not, and I was like excuse me, was it not one of the musicals that I gave you for one of our episodes where we were picking?

Speaker 2 11:17

The Tap Dance Kid no.

Speaker 1 11:18

Are you sure?

Speaker 2 11:19

Yeah, oh, I'm going to eat my hat, aren't I Was it. I'm not sure it was why would I not have picked the Tap Dance?

Speaker 1 11:26

Kid, you maybe had more attractive options.

Speaker 2 11:32

But I usually try to give them all a listen.

Speaker 1 11:34

Okay, maybe it was.

Speaker 2 11:35

And one of your faves Sideshow.

Speaker 1 11:37

I love Sideshow. We haven't done Sideshow yet.

Speaker 2 11:40

No.

Speaker 1 11:41

Add that to the list right now.

Speaker 2 11:43

Lyrics and book are both by Tom Ion. Hi, okay, yep, as you've mentioned, based on the show business aspirations of R&B artists such as the Shirelles maybe Shirley's no Shirelles, I think, shirelles, james Brown and the Supremes Story follows Heffy White, who is a young black female singer who is in a trio called the Dreams.

Speaker 1 12:13

The Dreams.

Speaker 2 12:15

The Supremes and the Dreams. They sound similar.

Speaker 1 12:20

Who knows, who knows.

Speaker 2 12:22

From Chicago, Illinois, who dream of being stars.

Speaker 1 12:27

Yeah, absolutely. Staged mostly by an African-American cast and originally starring the likes of Jennifer Holliday, cheryl Lee, ralph Loretta Devine, the musical opened on the 20th of December 1981 at the Imperial Theatre on Broadway. It ran for an impressive 1,521 performances from 1981 to 1985. Yeah, the show was nominated for 13 Tony Awards, winning six, including Best Book, best Performance by a leading actor, who was Ben Harvey, and Best Performance for my leading actress, which was obviously Jennifer Holliday. I'm sure we will talk about her an awful lot more. Best choreography for Michael Bennett. Yep Musical lyrical lingo. I had no idea that the director and choreographer of A Chorus Line, who we have talked about in detail on this podcast, was the choreographer of the director and choreographer of Dreamgirls.

Speaker 2 13:40

Yeah, and I that's. Most of my musical articles, again a bit similar to last week, are about the making of this musical Insane and Michael Derrott's one of them.

Speaker 1 13:50

It also won two Grammys yes, one for Best Cast Show Album and one for the Best Female R&B Vocal Performance. Now, dreamgirls was a bit of a massive star-making vehicle for an awful lot of people who have been connected with it, several performers, one of which being Jennifer Holliday. Holliday's recording of FA Solo and I'm telling you I'm not going was a number one single on the Billboard R&B charts in 1982.

Speaker 2 14:27

Yeah. And then obviously, yeah, jennifer Hudson, we've got Jennifer.

Speaker 1 14:30

Hudson, yeah, and Beyonce and Beyonce, yeah, and then obviously yeah, yeah, jennifer.

Speaker 2 14:32

Hudson. We've got Jennifer Hudson, yeah, and Beyonce and Beyonce, yeah.

Speaker 1 14:34

You know, so you've passed comment already, but it did not come to the West End until February 2016.

Speaker 2 14:45

The film came before that there was a film in 2006. Came before it, and then it was a Sonia Friedman production, who we've just mentioned there.

Speaker 1 14:55

She did the 2016 version in the West End London premiere in the Savoy Theatre which starred Glee star Amber Riley, taking on the role of Effie. Now, now. I saw that I know I was going to say, but when I saw it, I did not realise that it was a history making Production, in that it was the first time it had ever been On a London stage, which makes it even I'm even more delighted that I saw it.

Speaker 2 15:27

But like that's Ridiculously long time I know isn't it crazy it really is. People were delighted that I saw it, but like that's ridiculous, I know. Isn't it crazy? It really is. How is that a thing, and do you know what? It is great, I love it. I think it is a fantastic musical. The songs are fab. The storyline is really gripping. Oh, it's fab. I'm going to put it out there. The film is awesome.

Speaker 1 15:49

So full disclosure. Haven't seen the film.

Speaker 2 15:52

You haven't seen it. No, I'm sorry what I don't know why either?

Speaker 1 15:58

I have no reason. I don't have a reason for not having seen the film. I just haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 16:03

Oh my goodness, it is really good. Jennifer Hudson is amazing, so it's her starring role. Jennifer Hudson is amazing, so it's her starring role, jennifer. Hudson um came to fame from American Idol, yeah, um, and then it's her starring role. She'd have to gain 20 points yeah, because she played Effie.

Speaker 1 16:18

She plays.

Production History and Casting Challenges

Speaker 2 16:19

Effie Beyonce plays Dina, yeah um uh Jimmy. Foxx is.

Speaker 1 16:26

And then Annika Nonny Rose. I can't remember what Loretta is.

Speaker 2 16:33

Loretta and Eddie Murphy is oh yeah, I forgot.

Speaker 1 16:40

Thunder James.

Speaker 2 16:42

I didn't think it was James, but it is James, even though it's kind of based on James Brown and I'm going to say he was snubbed at the Oscars. Oh, really yeah he was absolutely fantastic in that role Fantastic, but I do like Eddie Murphy anyway. But he is great. You need to watch it.

Speaker 1 17:01

Yeah, no, I will. I definitely will watch it. No, I will, because I agree with you Like this would be one of my favourites like musical soundtracks yeah the music is just class.

Speaker 2 17:15

It's just banger after banger and it's really clever because it goes through different time periods yeah so it starts 60s, 70s and you go into the 80s and, yeah, you can hear that clearly in the music, yeah, yet the plot is really gripping. If you've got brilliant actresses which is probably the reason why it didn't come until 2016 it is going to knock your socks off so it didn't come to London because they didn't they just couldn't find Effie. They didn't have an Effie that's quite insane.

Speaker 2 17:53

Yeah, so there was a 2009 US tour, 2001 concert with Billy Porter in it, and then the tour was the UK tour. Sorry, was in 2022.

Speaker 1 18:06

Right, okay.

Speaker 2 18:07

But we haven't heard of it since. No, I know, so maybe we're putting it out there. There'll be a wee revival at some stage, yeah.

Speaker 1 18:16

Yeah, 2016, and then did a UK tour.

Speaker 2 18:20

But really 2001 was the last time it was in Broadway.

Speaker 1 18:25

Oh yeah, that concert.

Speaker 2 18:26

Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe Just putting it out there you just never know.

Speaker 1 18:32

Shall, we go on to our musical.

Speaker 2 18:34

Excuse me, yeah, so it started back in 1975. So this is what I learned, just about the production side of it. Oh sorry, I didn't realise. No, no, no, these are my musical lyrical angles.

Speaker 1 18:44

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 18:52

So Neil Carter, an African-American sorry Nell Carter, she's an African American. Sorry Nell Carter, she's an African American singer. She was in a play that Ian had written called the Dirtiest Show in Town. The concept for Dreamgirls was originally called One Night Only, which is a song, and then it changed to Project Number Nine. That's right, it was shelved when Carter went on to do soap opera.

Speaker 1 19:12

Yep.

Speaker 2 19:13

Then we have our lovely Michael Bennett was then introduced. He got involved. It was then workshopped where Jennifer Halliday was connected, but she left the workshop not once but twice. Once funding was secured, halliday was then asked back and they agreed to do a rewrite of the show and her character.

Speaker 1 19:35

So she left the project during workshop because she disliked the material and she was upset that her character, effie White, died at the conclusion of Act 1. So in the original that's what was supposed to happen. And then what was it? That's what was supposed to happen, and then what was it? So the second time she, when she came back after lots of rewrites, she found that Effie's role had been reduced significantly in favor of Dina's character. So she didn't like that either. But Bennett coaxed her back in, agreeing to rewrite the show's second act and to build up Effie's character. And the rest is history.

Speaker 2 20:16

Because look what happened to her and I think it was the best thing for the show and a brilliant thing for Jennifer.

Speaker 1 20:23

Because she does own. That is her song. Regardless of how I met her, let's be honest because the song is the way the song is. It's probably one of the the hardest songs in the musical theatre catalogue right any actress that sings it has to be proper, insanely awesome.

Speaker 1 20:47

Do you know what I mean? So anyone that sings it is amazing, but still you just yeah, go back to Jennifer Holliday. Do you know what I mean? So anyone that sings it is amazing, but still you just yeah, go back to jennifer holiday do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 20:55

yeah, it's amazing how young she was though?

Speaker 1 20:58

yeah, because effie is an old, slightly older character, isn't she like?

The Supremes Connection

Speaker 2 21:03

yeah, well, she's um, but she's certainly gotten like that older aura about her because she's very set. She's the one that's driving the dreams and she has this plan um, she puts herself, she is the main star yeah um, at the beginning, um, but yeah, yeah, which jennifer. But was then even back then, do you not think? Back in the 60s, people were older than they, they presented themselves older than what, yeah that's very true.

Speaker 1 21:32

What I learned was the similarities to the supremes.

Speaker 1 21:37

So like ridiculous yeah dream girls, as you said, follows an imaginary trio of aspiring singers called the dreamettes that could easily have been the supremes. Now, although the writers, tom Ayan and Henry Krieger, always deny any connections, curtis Taylor, who is the girl's manager, takes charge of the Dreamettes career after discovering them on a talent show, and that bears an obvious resemblance to Barry Gordy Jr. Likewise, the following painful and laborious efforts of the pop music family they all helped to build and recall those of historical Motown crowd right Effie in the musical is replaced by Dina Yep.

Speaker 1 22:29

Just as in the Supremes, Florence Ballard was sidelined to make way for Diana Ross. Mm-hmm Effie in the musical then struggles to sustain her self-esteem.

Speaker 2 22:41

Yep.

Speaker 1 22:42

As Ballard did Mm-hmm, and Dina in the musical becomes romantically involved with Curtis, the manager, just as Diana Ross did with Gordie Jr.

Speaker 2 22:53

Yep.

Speaker 1 22:55

You know, as at Motown, their involvement then caused jealousy, and you see, that in this play. Come on, writers, come on. I know you can't deny those close links.

Speaker 2 23:08

Definitely, as you said. The Supremes were an American girl group during the 1960s and most commercially successful of the Motown acts with 12 number one singles. And that's really shown as well in Dreamgirls how they grow commercially and like sell stuff and all that In 1967. The group was renamed by Barry, who was Motown's president, to Diana Ross and the Supremes.

Speaker 2 23:34

And we see that as well, where it's Dina and the Dreams, Though three years later Ross left and the group's name did return to the Supremes. Diana Ross, though, was reportedly angered by the whole musical and refused to see it.

Speaker 1 23:52

Okay, because she knew. Yeah, of course I love Diana Ross, though.

Speaker 2 23:58

Yeah, I know she is.

Speaker 1 23:59

I love Diana Ross.

Speaker 2 24:01

Did you know that the film version had actually been in the works since the 1980s? What, yeah, so it took until 2006. Lauryn Hill was once linked to it obviously not in the 80s, like maybe about the 90s and Whitney was linked to it as well. Interesting yeah, all attached at different points.

Speaker 1 24:17

Now. I could see Whitney giving Adina. I could. Yeah, so it did again take a wee while to come to light. Yeah, interesting the role, obviously racial issues and gender is addressed in this too.

Speaker 1 24:37

You know, um really represented in dream girls, obviously being a black cast musical with three female leads. Um being said, in the 1960s the Black Power movement was influential On the storyline, with Black artists starting to succeed In the music industry and Black music becoming accessible To all audiences, which is representation Of racial boundaries being broken down. The story based on three women Working their way up in the music industry to achieve their dreams, while the most powerful people in the industry are men.

Speaker 2 25:17

Yep.

Speaker 1 25:19

In the end the women also stand up for their rights and become influential figures. And you see that in the musical, when you know Dina and Effie actually do stand up to Curtis and go, you knowina and effie actually do stand up to curtis, yeah and go. You know, up until a certain point. You know curtis plays one of them off the other, like he knows what he wants. He wants effie out, he wants dina um front and center, but also wants dina yeah, do you know what I mean.

Black Pride and Representation

Speaker 1 25:46

And that part of the musical when actually dina goes I don't want you, yeah, you never. It was never me you wanted. And like that both those women stand up and then they reconnect and they, you know um heal their relationship that only broke, broke down because of the wedge that he had just started putting and you see the same with L'Oreal. Sorry, not Loretta, I said earlier.

Speaker 1 26:15

L'Oreal and James Sunder early. You know he was awful to her and that bit where she goes. You don't love me, you never loved me. I loved you, but you never loved me. You know, just like standing up to the men is a really, really awesome moment. Black Pride is a massive part of this musical.

Speaker 1 26:40

The music from Dreamgirls is based on different R&B, rhythm and blues acts such as the Supremes and Motown. Now, Motown was obviously the first black group to compete with white-owned companies in the music industry and, furthermore, in 1964, the Supremes appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Speaker 2 27:02

Okay.

Speaker 1 27:03

Which allowed the singing trio to be heard in many American homes. This meant that this black group could have a white audience. Since they were now in public TV, everybody could see their success. The Supremes and other R&B acts allowed black people to show their black pride because they showed the world that blacks could be as successful as whites, and now whites were also the consumers of black music.

Speaker 2 27:32

Yep.

Speaker 1 27:33

This idea of black pride is expressed in some of the songs. In Dreamgirls specifically, more Dreamgirls and One Night Only, the Dreamettes sing sorry, not more. Move, yeah, the Dreamettes sing Move in the talent show. This song illustrates determination, as they want to win the talent show and become pop stars. One phrase even says move, you're stepping on my style. Another one sings I want to be so wild. And this shows their willingness to create their own style. They want to walk their own path, independent of what other musicians are doing. And then in One one night only, they sing something so right has no, has got no chance to live, so let's forget about chances. It's one night I will give.

Speaker 1 28:20

That's one of my favorite lyrics in the whole show and this has a message that people should do what they want while they have the chance, because chances don't last forever.

Speaker 2 28:30

Yeah, that's it. That's it. There's lots of life lessons in Dreamgirls.

Speaker 1 28:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2 28:35

Stand by your friends is number one. Money is power.

Speaker 1 28:41

Yep.

Speaker 2 28:43

Being a favourite doesn't always last, yeah, and just never, you know, obviously, just with that James character. You know, a life lesson I suppose is just try not to get involved with a man who says he's going to leave his wife. It usually doesn't work out well.

Speaker 1 29:00

It doesn't end well. No, you're right, and family, it's all about family as well, and even one of the songs is called Family. We are a family, we're a giant tree. It's one of my favorites. Um, and you know, it's reflected. The song is sung when curtis, the group manager, is trying to make dina the lead singer instead of effie. Yeah, and they sing. It's more than you, it's more than me. No matter what we are, we are a family, and this lyric expresses the importance of that and they are, you know.

Speaker 2 29:34

They have the same dream and they want to share it together and it is just unfortunately that this man gets in, but it's a really good insight into the music industry, because you see it, I suppose, at Dreamgirls, you see it in Elton John's, you know how like music Rocketman how like music Movie Rocketman, yeah, Rocketman. How the music industry just it's whatever their narrative is and they start pushing and then people can their relationships break down and it's not nice.

Speaker 1 30:03

Singing in a group means doing what's best yeah, 100% For the family. It's not about individual wishes. Yeah, you know the dreams need to do whatever they have to do in order to gain the most success. Every member of the group is important and it's only when they work together that they achieve their goal of success?

Speaker 2 30:24

yeah, absolutely, and I think originally yes. Why um effie was hesitant about being backup singers? Because you're like, no, we are, we're, we don't just do an ooze and azzle, but if we do this it's going to launch our career forward and it's just about being able to have that open communication with people whenever you're working as part of a team and trying to move forward where you need to be that's it.

Life Lessons from Dreamgirls

Speaker 2 30:47

I also learned a wee bit about Cadillacs, cadillac, cadillac, cadillac, cadillac. Okay, so Cadillac wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Black America. Yeah, henry, ireland or Leland, sorry. After the Great Depression, which was 1928, people weren't buying cars, so they ended up, they were about to go bankrupt, excuse me. So they ended up selling, setting up the first integrated car sales in 1934, and the sales rose by 70 percent. Whites had their money in the banks, but the banks failed because of the great depression, uh, the uh crash. Sorry, um, blanks, blacks that didn't have their money in bank accounts because they weren't allowed bank accounts. So they had money, uh, to spend on the Cadillac cars and then, because they were, um, you know, giving them work through all aspects, whether it was on the cars, uh, selling, or in the shop.

Speaker 1 31:49

That is how black america saved cadillac so like why did they not get the the power of integration even back then like yeah, why, why so stupid yeah?

Speaker 2 32:01

so I loved that fun fact. I thought that was brilliant.

Speaker 1 32:04

Brilliant fact, yeah so, like all, like all the way back, like that, integrate the fact that, that, that the car business became integrated.

Speaker 2 32:15

Yep saved the do you?

Speaker 1 32:17

know what I mean. Like why? Why would they not go? Oh, hold on a wee minute it works oh, mr god, this world we live in I know and I am telling you I. I'm not going. I did say it has often been mentioned that it is one of the hardest female songs to sing in musical theatre. Why, I don't know. Why Do you want me to tell you? Yeah, yeah, I did a bit of research, asked a few of them Russia.

Speaker 2 32:48

Oh, yes, Russia.

Speaker 1 32:50

It's due to the demanding vocal range and powerful belting passages, so the song features a wide range requiring the singer to move seamlessly from the soft pleading tones to powerful, strenuous belting notes. Some might even say growls. Yeah, belting notes. Some might even say growls, and then on top of the vocals is the emotional depth required to portray the character's defiance and heartbreak. Those two emotions are on the polar opposites of the emotional.

Speaker 2 33:25

That song is heartbreaking because she is begging and begging and begging Please don't leave. And listen is powerful too, yeah, but it's a hard song to sing, though I feel like I can sing both of them, but I definitely can't, but I do love to sing those songs. And I am telling you, I'm not going.

Speaker 1 33:53

I think back in the day I sat for about six hours on YouTube all night and just listened to various different performers singing that song.

Speaker 2 34:03

You just sang it, you know, with the backing track no.

Speaker 1 34:09

I don't have the range. It's stunning, stunning, yeah, it's brilliant, and it was the second time I experienced a like stunning ovation mid show. That's class and it's quite hilarious because it obviously comes right at the end of the act. So I saw it in the savoy in 2016 with amber riley didn't realize at the time that it was the first time it had been in, uh, england, but obviously where. When she finished, like everybody just jumped to their feet, yeah, but what's hilarious is it's not the absolute end of the act right, Right okay.

Speaker 1 34:51

So she sings it right, and at that point she's been kicked out of the band.

Speaker 2 34:55

That's what it's all that's what her number's all about.

Speaker 1 34:58

And then the dreams sing like a bit right at the very end Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da, driving me wild Dum ba dum bum curtain. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da da da, da, da, da, da, da da da da, da, da da da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da.

Speaker 2 35:27

They'll still go on without her, like I think they've gone on. Yeah, that's maybe true. Maybe it was mental, but I was. I just thought it was like those three didn't bother me like, with that last bit they could have, they could have been up in the dressing room having their cup of tea early.

Speaker 1 35:42

But yeah, no, it was, yeah, really interesting, and obviously because I'm a big fan I have to mention it dream girls is the reason why we have marisha wallace now in, in in london yeah, because she came over to do stand um, not stand by like alternate yeah fe and then took over the role and you should list she talks about it on amber davies podcast oh does she, yeah, so amber davies.

Speaker 1 36:14

We've just so anyone who wants to know a wee bit more about that story, go and listen to amber davies podcast and maybe you know, send our friend amber like a wee message, because it would be great if she like, now plugged our podcast perfect and if she ever wants to come on to our podcast as a, as you know, guest, guest we would love to have her Love it, yeah, love it. You're so clever, I know so clever.

Speaker 2 36:39

Yeah, what are your stand ovations for Dreamgirls?

Speaker 1 36:42

So obviously my stand ovation is, and I'm telling you, I am not going.

Speaker 2 36:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1 36:56

But actually it's that last like 20 minutes of that one like from from heavy.

Speaker 2 36:59

It then goes into um, it's all over, uh, which is like an argument between the family and it's class, like it just builds and builds and builds, and builds and then ends with that.

Speaker 1 37:07

You know, and I'm telling you, I'm not going number yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 37:11

I lovegirls because it does get in there. I love Heavy and I only really realized that they're singing Heavy and that you need to lose weight. But she's pregnant. Yeah, I don't think I always got that connection. Anyway, heavy, heavy, baby.

Speaker 1 37:29

I just love the tone of that.

Speaker 2 37:32

And then I am telling you, I also like.

Speaker 1 37:35

Effie's act 2 number.

Speaker 2 37:37

You almost think like after I'm telling you give her a bit of a break in act 2, but then she's got.

Speaker 1 37:44

I am changing. I'm gonna be better than I am and listen when she sings with Dina, which is beautiful, but also like a proper Listen.

Speaker 2 37:56

I love it.

"And I'm Telling You" Analysis

Speaker 1 37:56

Yeah, it is great when you're a really good singer and you melt my face off.

Speaker 2 38:03

Oh, do you.

Speaker 1 38:03

And there's a lot of melty face-y songs in this musical, but it kind of goes with the R&B music.

Speaker 2 38:12

Yeah, it's's like you know I don't like when like singers just shout at you for the sake of shouting, and you know what I mean but this is different.

Speaker 1 38:22

Like these numbers are powerful, like in your face, like, and they're also passionate people so that's why, so it wouldn't make sense for them to go.

Speaker 2 38:31

Oh, why are you leaving me?

Speaker 1 38:34

I don't know how any performer does eight shows a week though. Yeah, it's tough Doing a Dreamgirls.

Speaker 2 38:40

No tough for those types of shows.

Speaker 1 38:43

I mean, I think I'd need vocal rest for a week if it just did one performance.

Speaker 2 38:48

Yeah, but do you not think I know this is a key question?

Speaker 1 39:16

it's more popular to have swaps, swings and alternates as much as they could and the the benefit of having many people within their company that could stand in and do many different roles. I think they realized the benefit of it. Actually, I also think the workplace has now changed, where back in the day wrongly so you were just expected like I'm not before, I've never performed in the West End or Broadway, but I kind of get the feeling and from various different interviews I've heard, you were expected to be there and to perform and you know a lot of performers were under power.

Speaker 1 39:51

They did what they needed to do to keep going, yeah, um, but now the modern performer just won't do that like actually their vocal health and their physical health is much more important, and I think producers are starting to respect that and respect that a wee bit more, but also don't have a choice, because actually the performers and the clientele that they're working with won't go on yeah If they don't think they are vocally fit to do it. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 40:25

And I'm like I think there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.

Speaker 2 40:28

Again not a professional performer, but you know just from from speaking to friends or associates that we have that are. There is still a lot of work, but I am loving this new era of appreciation for understudies, appreciation for alternates or alternates, whatever you said and um and appreciation for swings. I think that, to be fair, I think there needs to be more for that People don't realise the amount of work that swings do Swings have the hardest job in the world?

Speaker 1 41:00

Swings are the most talented in the company.

Speaker 2 41:04

Yeah, so they need to be appreciated. Stand up for the swings. Anyway, that went off on one. I loved Doodling Girls. I want to watch the film now and I think you should watch it with me.

Speaker 1 41:15

Okay, I'll do it, let's do it, that'll be good. Let's do it Because I have no idea why I didn't watch it.

Speaker 2 41:22

Like it was out in 2006. It was a long time ago I know, I know, and, like Geoffrey Hudson's, great is great.

Speaker 1 41:29

Okay, listen. I don't doubt it, and I love the musical so I know I will enjoy the film.

Speaker 2 41:35

Yeah, you need to get on it. Yeah, I must find out where it is and send it.

Speaker 1 41:41

I want to see it live again, though, too, because that was an experience Well sure we've mentioned it.

Speaker 2 41:45

it's going to be out there soon, it's going to happen, isn't it?

Speaker 1 41:47

because that's how it works, isn't it?

Speaker 2 41:49

It's going to be out there.

Speaker 1 41:51

Do you have a? What Would Paddy do?

Speaker 2 41:52

I do I put my book away and then I forgot or maybe this week it should be.

Speaker 1 41:55

What Would Jennifer?

Speaker 2 41:57

Do what Would Jennifer Do, as in.

Speaker 1 41:58

Jennifer Holiday or Hudson, it doesn't really matter. They're both kind of legends.

Speaker 2 42:04

I mentioned wigs last week, aye, but actually I forgot to even mention on this that there's 460 costumes and 205 wakes for Dreamgirls.

Modern Performer Health and Appreciation

Speaker 1 42:14

And a lot of quick changes, a lot of quick changes.

Speaker 2 42:16

And Swarovski I said it did the diamonds for all the things.

Speaker 1 42:22

Oh, there was a few sparkly silver numbers going on, from what I can recall.

Speaker 2 42:26

Yep. So what would Petty sorry, what would Jennifer Halliday do?

Speaker 1 42:32

What would?

Speaker 2 42:33

Holiday do. What would Holiday do? B? Would you rather be responsible for the set design in Phantom, or be responsible for the costumes of Dreamgirls, designing from scratch, so it had never been done before. So would you rather design a set you're giving me complete?

Speaker 1 42:56

and utter anxiety mentioning how many Blooming Costumes there are. So I'd probably take the set design would you? No, no, because then you've got that chandelier and stuff yeah, so you'd be designing costumes and wigs?

Speaker 2 43:12

yeah, and.

Speaker 1 43:13

I get started now getting all those crystals could you imagine they'd be coming on and their arms would be hanging off?

Speaker 2 43:20

you don't have to make them, you just have to design them oh, I could do.

Speaker 1 43:23

I did that embarrassing when I was younger I had a wee notebook and I had my wee costume designs love it, love it. I remember like during summer time was when I was younger, I had a wee notebook and I had my wee costume designs in it.

Speaker 2 43:32

Love it, love it.

Speaker 1 43:33

I remember, like during summertime I was like going to oh, it's quite nice, we're talking about this, considering this Sunday's Mother and Son Day. Yeah, yeah, during the summer, obviously off school, going to work with Mum, like to Mum's work, and I would have just sat in the corner and like done my wee costume designs for some like to mum's work and I would have just sat in the corner and done my wee costume designs for some fantasy musical I was dreaming up in my head.

Speaker 2 43:55

What else would you have been doing?

Speaker 1 43:57

Honestly, what else would I have been doing?

Speaker 2 43:59

Yeah, that's lovely.

Speaker 1 44:00

Playing Kirby outside probably.

Speaker 2 44:02

I do fear that if you hadn't chosen the costume ones, you would have been struck down there from TV. Yeah. I know, but I just think you put the fear in me with your previous comment about just how many costumes there were in.

Speaker 1 44:15

June Girls and I'm going. That's an awful lot of work.

Speaker 2 44:18

So do you think there was just one person these?

Speaker 1 44:20

days. If there's a wee shortcut, I'll take it back.

Speaker 2 44:23

Just one person sitting by the sewing machine making 460 costumes. Yeah, I was thinking I can't make costumes, but I could design them right, design them.

Speaker 1 44:31

Yeah, I go with the designer always a designer what would you do?

Speaker 2 44:38

costumes, of course you would not really that interested in the set. Give me a black box and I can perform.

Speaker 1 44:45

Oh no, I love always. I'm moving more and more away from like intricate sets. I like the finer details. These days, like I think it's much nicer.

Speaker 2 44:56

No, don't get me wrong. Back to the Future. Blew me away. You couldn't do something like that without an amazing set design. What?

Speaker 1 45:04

On set design and costume.

Speaker 2 45:05

What.

Speaker 1 45:06

I did something last night.

Speaker 2 45:08

What did you do? I booked tickets.

Speaker 1 45:11

What for so during Easter going? To London and we're going to go and see Starlight Express.

Speaker 2 45:21

Oh, are you? Yes, oh, I'm intrigued by what you think we have booked the tickets.

Speaker 1 45:27

You'll get a full debrief, don't you worry?

Speaker 2 45:30

Love it.

Speaker 1 45:31

Have you booked your Hercules yet?

Speaker 2 45:32

no, not yet did see. You know obviously the performance and all that yes. I'm going to forgive it because obviously they're you know, they couldn't really do a full performance they're saving their best. They're saving their best right, but no less said about that. I think a wee August trip will definitely be happening in.

Speaker 1 45:52

Hercules will be there well, yeah we're going to choo choo our way to the troubadour and have a wee gander and have a at the trains.

Speaker 2 46:06

I actually cannot wait to hear what you think.

Speaker 1 46:08

Woo, woo nobody can do it like a steam train. Love it until next week bye.

Speaker 2 46:17

Might we have a friend next week? We might. We'll leave you in suspense.

Speaker 1 46:26

I worry leave you in suspense the stories that could be coming next week will not be back the week after yeah, I know come back next week please do bye, and I am telling you I'm not going.