Carousel: A Tragic Love Story Set to Sublime Music

Rodgers and Hammerstein's Carousel remains one of musical theatre's crown jewels, a tragic love story that's both heartbreaking and uplifting. After the groundbreaking success of Oklahoma!, the legendary duo took a risk with this darker tale of carousel barker Billy Bigelow and mill worker Julie Jordan—a risk that paid off spectacularly despite initial hesitation.

The journey to bring Carousel to life wasn't straightforward. The original playwright, Ferenc Molnar, had previously rejected adaptation requests from musical giants like Gershwin and Puccini. What finally changed his mind? Seeing Oklahoma! convinced him these composers could honor his work. When Molnar attended rehearsals expecting disappointment, he instead found himself delighted, especially with their reimagined ending.

What makes Carousel exceptional is its musical innovations. Oscar Hammerstein solved a persistent theatrical problem with "If I Loved You"—creating the perfect conditional love song where characters explore their feelings tentatively rather than declaring immediate passion. This technique revolutionized musical storytelling. Billy's "Soliloquy" delivers one of theatre's most powerful character arcs, while "You'll Never Walk Alone" transcended the stage to become Liverpool Football Club's beloved anthem.

We explore fascinating trivia, from Frank Sinatra's near-casting as Billy Bigelow to the historical origins of carousels as cavalry training devices. Agnes DeMille's groundbreaking choreography receives special attention—her 15-minute dance suite pioneered American dance that blended modern ballet with folk themes.

Whether you're hearing the lush orchestrations for the first time or revisiting a beloved classic, Carousel's emotional depth and musical brilliance remind us why Richard Rodgers considered it his most satisfying score ever written. Subscribe now to dive deeper into the musicals that transformed theatre forever.

End of MLL

Transcript

Welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo

Speaker 1 0:26

Hello and welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo. We're your hosts, Tim and LJ.

Speaker 2 0:30

Today and every week we will be discussing musicals, but specifically what they taught us.

Speaker 1 0:36

Yep.

Speaker 2 0:38

What.

Speaker 1 0:39

Who.

Speaker 2 0:40

What.

Speaker 1 0:41

Where.

Speaker 2 0:41

What? When I thought I did something wrong there. The way you looked at me?

Speaker 1 0:45

Not at all not at all, but I did take a note out of your book and I was extremely enthusiastic yeah, you're really enthusiastic on the intros and stuff.

Speaker 2 0:58

I think it's hard. You're the first one to like, you know. So you're like setting the tone and then I come in and just well, lauren, there's one sure thing we're not swapping it now? No, oh gosh, we're getting so it's not happening. No, no, no, no it is not happening. No, definitely not, Definitely, definitely not.

Speaker 1 1:23

All good.

Speaker 2 1:24

All great. Fantastic Tell me what you have for me.

Speaker 1 1:28

Okay, shock of the century, in my opinion. Todrick Hall.

Speaker 2 1:34

Okay.

Speaker 1 1:34

Yeah, has been announced just well at time of recording this week, but I'll be last week or two weeks ago when you get this episode, as being the choreographer and director for the West End premiere of Bolesk yeah, which is going to open in London Savoy Theatre from July the 10th to September the 6th. Now, the reason I'm confused is obviously Burlesque has had its world premiere this year in Manchester and.

Speaker 1 2:07

Glasgow and it had a director choreographer yeah, so Hall Todrick Hall is succeeding Nick Winston. So I, the nosiness in me, wants to know what's going on.

Speaker 2 2:24

It's obviously just getting a wee bit of a re-vamp.

Speaker 1 2:27

Yeah, and Todrick, because Todrick Hall was in that world premiere. He played Sean.

Speaker 2 2:33

Okay.

Speaker 1 2:34

And Todrick's also written some new music for the West End.

Speaker 2 2:38

So this is what my theory is.

Speaker 1 2:40

I love your theories because they're normally very good.

Speaker 2 2:42

This is a very short stint that is going to be happening because Paddington is moving into Savoy.

Speaker 1 2:47

It's so exciting, isn't it?

Speaker 2 2:49

But I think Burlesque wants a longer home. So right now, the way it is, nobody wants to take it for longer. So they're revamping it. So when people come to see it for the short stint that it is in Savoy, we're going to see it six months time somewhere else for longer.

Speaker 1 3:08

But which version, the world premiere version or the London? But that's what I mean. What happened Like why are they doing a completely new?

Speaker 2 3:18

Because it didn't get the long stint that they wanted. I think they wanted it to come into town and be there, not just be a six week thing or whatever.

Speaker 1 3:28

I think yeah, but why change up when the show is clearly there and set?

Speaker 2 3:33

because maybe there's just something missing. That's what.

Speaker 1 3:36

I mean, I want to know what's going on. There's drama that we're not being told, I think. Do you know what I mean? Like, well, I think because I thought the world premiere stuff looked really good.

Speaker 2 3:48

But then you didn't see the whole thing.

Speaker 1 3:49

That's very true. That is it On Paddington Stuffed Bert from Mary Poppins, I'm going to play that bear.

Speaker 2 3:56

Oh, the actual bear.

Speaker 1 3:57

I'm going to play that bear. Oh, okay, I'm going to play Paddington Interesting. It's very exciting.

Speaker 2 4:02

Very. Had you heard rumours or whisperings about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 4:06

Okay, missed that.

Speaker 2 4:07

Oh, did you not know that it was in the?

Speaker 1 4:09

I went. Paddington Bear is now a musical.

Speaker 2 4:14

Yeah, no, I knew that Fletcher had been working on it for a while. Did not know.

Speaker 1 4:17

Tom Fletcher of Busted. Oh, he's going to kill me, mick Busted. Tom Fletcher of McFly fame.

Speaker 2 4:24

Yes.

Speaker 1 4:27

Is and Kerry Hook.

Speaker 2 4:28

Fletcher's brother. Yeah, yes, because maybe it's just from her socials and stuff. No, no, no, I definitely knew that he was in the middle of that.

Speaker 1 4:37

Well. Very exciting, amazing, at the time of recording the tour of Lion, witch and Wardrobe is in our local theatre, the Opera House. Did you know know? Honest to goodness, the world is a mad place. But do you know that a man has recently been charged what for stealing the white witch's coat that he stole when the show was in Edinburgh? What isn't that ridiculous?

Speaker 2 5:09

so the thirty, thirty four, when the show was in Edinburgh. What?

Speaker 1 5:12

Isn't that ridiculous. So the 34-year-old man has been charged following the incident that took place on the 27th of March. He stole the faux fur coat that the White Witch wears, and that coat still remains missing, as far as I'm aware. Oh, my goodness what goes through people's, do you?

Speaker 2 5:37

imagine that wardrobe mistress is.

Speaker 1 5:39

I know, woof, I know You'd be past yourself, wouldn't you?

Speaker 2 5:43

That's crazy, isn't that bizarre?

Speaker 1 5:45

What a bizarre piece of theatre news.

Speaker 2 5:48

I've heard it's going down. It's great oh, I'm so gutted, I'm gutted gutted, there was no tickets, and it's coming to Dublin, though in a couple more. Has it just been to Dublin?

Speaker 1 6:00

no, I can't but will it not? Will it not be sold out there too? I know, because when I went on it was it's just a complete sellout.

Speaker 2 6:06

I know, I know I am gutted, just so lovely as well because obviously CS Lewis and Belfast and have lovely CS Lewis Square just down from, you know near. Yeah, or perhaps as near can be. But yeah, and also sorry. Just to move on more theatre news. Are you going to mention the UK and Ireland tour of Mrs Doubtfire?

Speaker 1 6:35

No, the UK and Ireland tour of Mrs Doubtfire?

Speaker 2 6:36

No, because I didn't know that there was a UK and Ireland tour. Yeah, so it was announced yesterday at 10am.

Speaker 1 6:39

I love it.

Speaker 2 6:40

And this is what excites me, because it can't say UK and Ireland if it's not coming to this island, oh, if it's not coming to this island. Oh, if it's not coming to belfast, it was so that's what I mean, like it'll either be belfast, or dublin. Yeah, yeah, um so but the fact it doesn't just say you know, sometimes it says uk tour and then we never know if belfast is going to get it.

Speaker 1 7:01

Yes, but the fact that it says uk and ireland tour means it's definitely going, definitely has to come to dublin yeah, yeah, so um amazing yes that is exciting. Another people I'm very excited by that because that I would love to have seen that.

Speaker 2 7:14

Yes, um but I knew that. I knew whenever it announced they spun this wheel or this world, and I was like I bet it's going on tour, yeah, and then, and it's the type.

Speaker 1 7:24

From the sounds of it, it's the type of musical that will do amazingly well on tour. Uh, something else that's very exciting the National Theatre, because they now have a new artistic director and they have released their season for the next year. Isn't it Up to 2026,? Is that Into 2026, yeah, and there's loads going on, including lots of fantastic people, including what's his name from normal people. Why is his name just gone out of my head?

Speaker 2 8:02

Paul.

Speaker 1 8:02

Meskell. Paul Meskell is going to be in the National Theatre doing two shows, apparently, but what I'm really excited about is a new musical version of Pride. Yes and Pride. The 2014 film is one of my favourite films about the minors joining forces with the LGBT.

Speaker 2 8:28

Yep.

Speaker 1 8:30

I think that could be like a real hit. Like I could see that having legs after it's stint in the National Theatre, so I think that's very exciting. Also want to know how you feel about this. Andrew Lloyd Webber revealed that a revival of our favourite musical Cats is going to be coming to London in 2026.

Speaker 2 8:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1 8:53

He has also said that award-winning choreographer and artistic director of Regent's Park Open Air Theatre, drew McHoney one of my favourite choreographers is set to create a fresh production Now. When I saw that he had said there was a revival coming, I thought it was going to be the Broadway revival and I got really excited because I actually would love to see what they've done with it. In Broadway they kind of put it into a.

Speaker 1 9:24

Vogue-y kind of underground club-y kind of version. But it's not a direct transfer of the Broadway production, it is a completely fresh new version that Drew McHoney's going to create, which I think could probably still be amazing, because I think he is amazing. He's very, very talented creative.

Theatre News and Announcements

Speaker 2 9:48

Yeah, no, it'll be certainly interesting. There's loads of them in it as well. We've got the Frogs, the Sondheim musical, which Nathan Lane revised, and it's currently in production or like rehearsals at the moment, and then I'm hoping we'll be able to see it on PBS this week or next week. The cast recording the pro shot of Next to Normal is going to be out, so I'm hoping that that means that in the UK we'll be able to see it. So you know why Waitress got their pro shot first and then it took a few months for it to come over.

Speaker 1 10:27

That annoys me though. Because they were both well, not the waitress one, but next to normal, was recorded in a. London theatre so why does? Pps America get it before anyway, let's not create division talking about America. The Tony Awards were our Tony nominations were made last week, so up for just interesting. Want to know your opinions. Up for best revival of a musical is Floyd Collins, gypsy, starring Audrey.

Speaker 1 10:58

Uh McDonald, uh, pirates of Penzance that's meant to be brilliant um, yeah, I've seen a few videos that looks really good, and then obviously Sunset Boulevard that walked away with the Olivier's last year. What do you think?

Speaker 2 11:12

Yeah, out of those. I think Sunset's still getting such a big buzz around it. I think it will be hard, but I think Pirates is in for a good chance.

Speaker 1 11:23

I agree Yep Best Actor In a musical. Let me find.

Speaker 2 11:37

I think Tom Francis is or is he best supporting actor he's up for.

Speaker 1 11:43

I should really have got these in order Before I started talking about them. The actress ones are quite interesting. You've got Nicole Scherzinger.

Speaker 2 11:54

You've got Nicole, you've got Audrey you've got. Megan Hilty and.

Speaker 1 12:00

Oh, the oh. You can't say one without the other. From Death Becomes Her. That's also been nominated for.

Speaker 2 12:10

Oh, I forgot, forgotten her name.

Speaker 1 12:11

I know it's going to annoy me. That's annoying.

Speaker 2 12:13

But I really hope Megan, as much as I know Nicole Scherzinger is doing amazing. Yes, I think obviously Death Becomes. Her is doing wonderful too. She's great.

Speaker 1 12:26

Jennifer Simard, and then also, to be fair, we should mention Jasmine Amy Rogers for Boop, the musical I would. I'm so interested in what that's going to be like. Another, just one more we shout out For actor best performance by an actor in a leading role in a play. Best performance by an actor in a leading role in a play Louis McCartney from Good Old Northern Ireland. That's right. As we mentioned, he has been nominated for his role in Stranger Things, the First Shadow that we mentioned.

Speaker 2 13:02

Fantastic.

Speaker 1 13:04

He's up against George Clooney. I know I'm mad being able to say yeah, I was nominated opposite George Clooney. Imagine if he walked away with the win.

Speaker 2 13:14

Wow.

Speaker 1 13:14

Delighted, wow. And then your play that you mentioned on last week's Yep.

Speaker 2 13:21

John Proctor. Is John Proctor the villain?

Speaker 1 13:24

Is a villain. It's been nominated for Best Play. There you go, yeah, very exciting, interesting been nominated for Best Play.

Speaker 2 13:30

There you go.

Speaker 1 13:31

Yeah, it will be interesting.

Speaker 2 13:33

I do love Tony season, not that we get to see it, but usually we get some highlights on YouTube monthly.

Speaker 1 13:39

Not as many as you used to. No, they've cracked down on that an awful lot.

Speaker 2 13:44

Well, thank you so much for your theatre news. There was a lot there.

Speaker 1 13:47

Yeah, well, it was the Tony Tony.

Speaker 2 13:48

Tony, what are we doing this week?

Speaker 1 13:52

Are we doing a musical that won a Tony? I can't remember. Some revivals Got a few nominations no won. Yeah, did win. Some revivals of this musical got a few nomi nominations no one, yeah, it did win okay there we go some revivals of this musical won a Tony.

Speaker 2 14:16

Tony, what are we doing?

Speaker 1 14:18

we're way back in 1888, no 1873 oh, we've done well this week in our research. To be fair, I've got so many notes I can't actually find the information.

Speaker 2 14:31

We are back in the 1800s. Anyway, this is Carousel.

Introducing Carousel: Rodgers & Hammerstein's Classic

Speaker 1 14:37

That was the worst intro we've ever done for a musical, isn't it? We're back with our friends Richard Rogers and Oscar Hammerstein for their second musical together after their first ground-breaking Oklahoma. On the heels of the ground-breaking I'm just going to say it again, the ground-breaking Oklahoma carousel stirred audiences with a tragic love story told with beautiful music and sublime dance. There's my word again. It was Richard Rodgers' personal favourite of his many productions. He said Oscar never wrote more meaningful or more moving lyrics. He mentioned that in his autobiography Music Stages, and to me my score is more satisfying than any I've ever written. But it's not just the song, it's the whole play, Beautifully written, tender, without being mawkish. It affects me deeply every time I see it performed.

Speaker 1 15:40

Yeah, what a lovely way to talk about your own work.

Speaker 2 15:44

I know, and it not sound like a pure book.

Speaker 1 15:46

Yeah, that's very true 1945,.

Speaker 2 15:51

This musical is adapted from Ferenc Molnar. Is that how you say it?

Speaker 1 15:57

I'm so glad you took that bit.

Speaker 2 15:58

Yeah, his 1909 play which was Lilliam, named Lilliam. Sorry, but they changed Budapest for Maine. Yes, changed it slightly. So 1945, it opened on Broadway. It only ran for 890 performances which nowadays isn't too bad for certain performances. It's only one of theirs Rodgers and Hammerstein's. Not to do a thousand performances, what 1950,. It came to the West End. Then you had a West End revival in 1992, a Broadway revival in 94, another West End revival in 2008,. Back to London in 2017 and then Broadway 2018.

Speaker 1 16:46

I hope you kept up with all of that folks. It's been around.

Speaker 2 16:50

It has been around. It has been around. There's been a couple of tours thrown in there as well. But we haven't. There hasn't been one for a while 2018.

Speaker 1 17:01

Yeah, and I think that's it, it's. It is a funny, funny show in that you can understand why it hasn't disappeared, but it's also not brought out on a regular you know, and even Rodgers and Hammerstein had been reluctant at the beginning to even pick it up. You know, I think Oklahoma being such a success. I also love that in this episode my favourite Oklahoma's going to come up an awful lot, because there's an awful lot to give credit to which is interesting.

Speaker 2 17:38

It was an immediate hit with both critics and audiences, but it just didn't have as much success commercially as Oklahoma. And that 100% is down to the fact that Oklahoma's amazing no down to the fact that Oklahoma's amazing no, it's the fact that it doesn't have a happy tied up in a bow ending.

Speaker 1 17:59

No, and that's it, and I think even you know, say the playwright's name again.

Speaker 2 18:07

I think it's Molnar Molnar.

Speaker 1 18:08

So yeah, the Hungarian play Lilium.

Speaker 2 18:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1 18:12

By Molnar. It's, I mean, it's a classic, but it's a bit risky, yeah. And they were worried about being accused of adding songs where songs weren't needed. Yeah. Then there was also the fact that Lilium was set in Budapest, as you've mentioned, a place neither Rodgers or Hammerstein had the slightest empathy with, and then also a play that ends with just about the least crowd-pleasing scene for a musical possible, where the British father in spirit returns to see his daughter and slaps her, which for her feels like a kiss.

Speaker 2 18:58

Yeah, yes, we'll go into that.

Speaker 1 19:00

Yeah. And add to all of this, even if they did decide to take it on, there was no guarantee that the Hungarian playwright would approve, because he had already turned down the likes of Gershwin and Puccini.

Speaker 2 19:17

Yeah, yeah, so he just he didn't want it turned into a musical, he didn't want to part with the play. He loved it, obviously, the way it was. And they tried for, I think, about two years. They definitely spoke to him and I just wasn't having it.

Speaker 1 19:37

But the one thing that did get him to was your, your wee musical so I say that again what was the reason that milnor decided to give the rights?

Speaker 2 19:48

get him to agree. But once he seen oklahoma he agreed he would get one percent of the gross and two thousand five hundred pounds for personal services. He was totally taken by what they were able to do to Oklahoma.

Speaker 1 20:06

He was an Oklahoma fan, like the rest of us, lauren. Like the rest of us musical fans out there, he was a fan of Oklahoma and, much to everyone's trepidation, he gave them the rights and he even turned up to rehearsals so convinced that he would hate it. The writers, oscars and Hammerstein, nervously introduced themselves, but he was ecstatic with what they had done to his play, especially their new ending. They had to do something about the original ending. They couldn't slap his daughter. The only criticism he had was when he icily delivered his complaint that the director smoked too much in rehearsals.

Speaker 2 21:00

Well, there we go.

Speaker 1 21:01

I mean, if that's the only complaint that you're going to get out of, but let's just never forget we wouldn't have had Carousel the musical if we hadn't had Oklahoma. Because, he was a fan of Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 21:16

So Carousel is set in 1873, maine. Not a bit of pest. There's two young female mill workers and they visit the carousel after work. I love the names in Carousel. I have to say I love Carousel.

Speaker 1 21:33

So do I.

Speaker 2 21:34

I adore Carousel.

Speaker 1 21:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:37

But Jilly Jordan, I just love that name.

Speaker 1 21:39

You're a queer one, jillyordan mr snow I love.

Speaker 2 21:44

I just, I just love the names on this. Anyway, jilly jordan attracts the attention of billy bigelow again another great um name and um, she just becomes absolutely infatuated with him and he becomes infatuated with her. Time passes and they end up getting married. However, billy is still that carousel lad and he hasn't really made much of himself. He's still unemployed and he lashes out in July and this, I think, was quite jarring for audiences, seeing this anti-hero who's meant to be the, the leading man, you know. Yeah, he hits his wife yeah, absolutely and he's then tempted by robbery.

Speaker 2 22:27

Whenever he real realizes that julie is pregnant, um and he decides to take part in the robbery yeah, he realizes he can't provide for his family as as things stand.

Speaker 2 22:39

Yeah and the robbery, unfortunately, is a failure. And billy now. This is where there's the difference between the film, which some people will be very familiar with, and the stage version, and billy ends up killing himself and dies in julie's arms. And billy then ends up in heaven uh, though he's not actually allowed in as he didn't do good enough on Earth. But as long as there is still one person on Earth alive who remembers him, he can go to Earth for a day, and that's how the musical is taken. He is allowed to go to Earth in the film because there's a problem and he has to go and solve it, which is slightly different than the stage version. He must help his daughter, who is now 15 years, as 15 years have passed Earthside. Billy shows himself to his daughter, but when she refuses his star as a gift, he hits her. He then disappears and Louise, his daughter, tells her mother about the blow that felt like a kiss. Julie completely understands and knows that Billy is about. Billy then tells Julie he loves her and then he goes into heaven.

Speaker 1 23:48

And you do. It's a weepy, like I remember, like actually hyperventilating at the back of the stalls when I saw. Oh my gosh, you took me, that's right, and I did, didn't I? I probably both hyperventilated. We saw oh my gosh, you took me, that's right, and I did, didn't I?

Speaker 2 24:01

I probably both hyperventilated we were both cracked, but you took me.

Speaker 1 24:04

It was a present that's right, oh yeah so that, yeah, it's yes, it's not, it's not your oh, at the end it's um yeah yeah it's a sad one, the 1992 london revival uh got four oliviers, including best musical revival, best director, and joanna riding and jenny d won for actress and supporting actress respectively. And the 1994 Broadway revival had five Noms and five Tony Awards, including Best Revival and Audrey McDonagh for Best Actress. There you go. The original Broadway production was noted not just for its music but also for Agnes DeMille's stunning dance sequences and choreography, and I don't think you can talk about Carousel without talking about the choreography and obviously as a choreographer I will not stand for it.

Speaker 2 25:11

And it obviously has a very famous ballet.

Speaker 1 25:13

Well, it does so. In Act Two, de Mille choreographed a 15-minute dance suite. Mill choreographed a 15 minute dance suite to intro. It was to introduce the troubled louise who was the teenage daughter of julie and billy. Now, in my opinion, there's no need for a 15 minute dance suite and that's my one issue I have with this musical. It's the same issue I have with my beloved Oklahoma. There's no need for the big, massive ballet. You can establish what you need to establish in less than 15 minutes much less.

Speaker 1 25:49

This one doesn't jar me as much as Oklahoma's, it drags it a bit, I think.

Speaker 2 25:54

Yeah, maybe cut it to 8.

Speaker 1 25:56

Agnes Nabil pioneered an American style of dance that combined modern ballet and folk themes. In addition to Carousel, she choreographed the great musicals Oklahoma and Brigadier. Some interesting Carousel facts. Did you know that Frank Sinatra had originally agreed to take on the role of Billy Bigelow in the 1956 movie version, but he backed out when he heard that extra time would be needed to shoot the film because of the new film technology at the time CinemaScope 55.

Speaker 2 26:33

Apparently he was very famously quoted to say I was only hired to film one film like shoot, one film Like shit one film. But technically, in his eyes, he was going to be doing it twice.

Speaker 1 26:46

Oh.

Speaker 2 26:46

But also that is what the rumour is. He withdrew as he was against filming the scenes twice, but apparently it was because his wife, eva Gardner, threatened infidelity if he didn't join her on the set of Barefoot Contessa.

Speaker 1 27:03

Oh really, that's a proper scandal right there.

Liverpool FC and You'll Never Walk Alone

Speaker 2 27:09

So the lovely, wonderful Albert Gordon McAray, who ended up playing Billy in the film. He said he had a feeling that Frank wasn't going to make it and he had sort of like learned that role. He had just come from playing their Oklahoma film version. He didn't cut his hair and about three weeks after Frank had pulled out of the film he was found in a production in Dallas. So he went and did Billy on stage in a production in Dallas.

Speaker 2 27:40

So he went and did Billy on stage and then. But I love him because I love his partnership with Doris Day and by the Light of the Silvery Moon and all of those films, so I just think he's a great Billy Bigelow too.

Speaker 1 27:52

Very good. Obviously, I am a fan of musical theatre, but you also know that I'm a real fan of something else.

Speaker 2 28:01

Yes.

Speaker 1 28:02

What am I also a real big fan of?

Speaker 2 28:05

Wrestling no.

Speaker 1 28:07

Football. I'm a big, massive football fan, aren't I?

Speaker 2 28:11

I forgot that this was a new thing.

Speaker 1 28:14

It's not a new thing. I've always been a fan of football. Now it's a bit of a touchy subject because, obviously, my beloved team of Ipswich Town, up the Blues, who are we? We have been relegated this year, but so we're at one end, we're at the arse end of the table, but at the other end is Liverpool, who have just been crowned Premiership Champions 2025.

Speaker 2 28:44

And I did think it was very apt that they went and won that the week that we were doing this.

Speaker 1 28:49

Because obviously, as much of a fan of football that I am, I don't appreciate them stealing musical theatre songs and taking as their own, because obviously the beloved Liverpool football fans do enjoy a rendition of You'll Never Walk Alone, the Rodgers and Hammerstein classic from Carousel, sung many times in the stands Now. Musical theatre legend Barbara Cook was once interviewed and she knew Richard Rodgers really well, and when asked if Richard Rodgers would approve of the hijacking of his song, she raised an eyebrow, as only musical theatre performers can do, and replied well, dickie was always very facidious about how his songs were performed, so take out of that what you will.

Speaker 2 29:50

I mean it. Always I struggled because I knew the song from Carousel. Yeah, and then I'm not. We are not a football family no, don't come from a football family and and get in followed it for years get into secondary school and my best friend is absolutely obsessed with Liverpool because of her brothers and I thought you were talking about me.

Speaker 1 30:19

I was like I have never been a fan of Liverpool. No, and then I was like Hip switch till. I die.

Speaker 2 30:25

Hip switch till you die. That is hilarious.

Speaker 1 30:28

I tell you what we died this season.

Speaker 2 30:30

Oh dear, there's always next year, isn't there?

Speaker 1 30:32

Oh wait, back in the championship It'll be nice to win some games. It's always much more fun when we're winning.

Speaker 2 30:37

So you'll be with Wrexham then.

Speaker 1 30:39

That's correct.

Speaker 2 30:40

So maybe we'll see you in the stalls in the next series of Wrexham.

Speaker 1 30:45

Absolutely. I mean, I do have a stand named after me. It's called Bluebells. Oh lovely, it's getting a bit bunch my surname's, bell, for any listeners that are wondering what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 30:58

But, yes, always intrigued me why a football and why grown men were singing a song from a musical whenever they had no idea that it was from a musical. I know, but anyway, there we go.

Speaker 1 31:09

The world is a bizarre place, isn't it? But it is amazing in popular culture just how many times a musical theatre song can jump in. Also, on a recent visit, I went to see a concert.

Speaker 2 31:25

I thought you said on a recent like football festival it was a Jim Bob concert.

Speaker 1 31:31

Jim Bob, he's a singer you won't have heard of him. He was once upon a time in a band called Carter, the Unstoppable Sex Machine, Right, okay, well, let's just say I've been introduced to a mosh pit.

Speaker 2 31:44

Oh.

Speaker 1 31:46

It was an interesting time. But amidst moshing in the pit, he all of a sudden sings the Impossible Dream.

Speaker 2 31:55

There you go.

Speaker 1 31:56

It was a good version, to be fair. There you go, really good, and then you're going. Who would have thought, who would have?

Speaker 2 32:01

thought.

Speaker 1 32:02

Shepard, shepard, shepard, shepard, shepard, bush Empire. I'd be listening to a musical theatre classic. Anyway, let's move on to what we've learnt from Carousel.

Speaker 2 32:13

Well researching, I didn't know. Even though I had a love of Carousel, the musical, I didn't know that it was based on a play, so it was definitely my first musical.

Speaker 1 32:20

Eric Olingo.

Speaker 2 32:21

Then in. You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan.

Speaker 1 32:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2 32:26

And half the time your shuttle gets twisted in the threads till you can't tell the warp from the woof.

Speaker 1 32:34

Yeah.

What We Learned: Carousels and Clambakes

Speaker 2 32:35

So, as I had mentioned earlier, they're mill workers, so this just means the threads that run lengthwise on the loom, while, with or with threads run across, creating the fabric's texture.

Speaker 1 32:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2 32:48

And I probably should know that, with my mother being wonderful seamstress that she was, but I didn't know it.

Speaker 1 32:55

There you go. I was quite interested in the history of carousels. First of all, the fact that Billy Bigelow was known as a carousel barker or a carnival barker, and I was like barker. That's weird. But a barker is a person who attempts to attract patrons to entertainment events such as circuses or funfairs by exhorting passing members of the public, announcing attractions of the show and emphasizing variety, novelty, beauty or some other enticing feature. Now, apparently, professional barkers strongly dislike the term oh, right, okay yeah, and generally refer to themselves as talkers.

Speaker 1 33:41

Oh, okay, so there you go, so I didn't know what a barker was. Also, it was really quite interesting because obviously I'm just back from a London trip and we were walking down the South Bank and what was in this on the South Bank? But a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful carousel and at the front of the carousel. It's amazing where you get your research from for this podcast, but was this big billboard about the history of carousels and I was like I have to take a picture. I have to take a picture for the pod. Um, so the name carousel originated you know where?

Speaker 2 34:16

it originated from.

Speaker 1 34:17

It originated from the old Italian Spanish word carasello or carasella, meaning little battle. Oh yeah, hence the horsies, nice. This was because early machines were used for cavalry training in the 12th century. Carousels first became popular for entertainment in the great public parks of Europe in the 1700s and then. Early carousels had no platform. The animals would hang on ropes or chains and they were often powered by animals walking in a circle or people pulling on the ropes. Then, by the mid 19th century, platform carousels were developed and powered by steam. Then electrical motors then were installed, electrical lights came, and it just developed and developed. Interestingly though, each country had like its own variation of the carousel, and one of the notable differences was the direction of the horses.

Speaker 1 35:22

So american carousels rotate counterclockwise right, okay, that's cool I'm sorry, like I just became a bit geeky when I saw the sign I literally stood there for 10 minutes reading it that's fab there you go I love it.

Speaker 2 35:37

I do love a good carousel.

Speaker 1 35:39

I mean.

Speaker 2 35:40

I've been on a few.

Speaker 1 35:42

A bit boring for me. Oh, I do like them, although with my vertigo attack that I had a couple of years ago, I'm not so sure I could go on anything else in a funfair other than a carousel, yeah, so it's probably the only thing. So I might just have to learn to like lump it.

Speaker 2 36:00

Like it or lump it. There's beautiful carousels in Disney and we also did a lovely one sitting at like an ice cream parlor in Santa Monica oh, their peers are really nice, fun too. And a couple in San Diego as well. The kids like a good carousel.

Speaker 1 36:14

There you go.

Speaker 2 36:14

And you see, you need to also watch Schmigadoon. Yeah, because one of the main characters. Aaron Tveit's role is Billy Bigelow.

Speaker 1 36:24

Is a barker. Is a barker, isn't he?

Speaker 2 36:26

Oh there you go. So I also learned in If I Loved you, a beautiful song We've talked about, if I Love you on the pod.

Speaker 1 36:34

Already it was in our top five. It was for Valentine's Day Musical theatre love song.

Speaker 2 36:42

So top five. It was for valentine's day musical theater, love song, um. So it's between jilly and billy um. And she says I'm never gonna marry. If I was gonna marry I wouldn't have to be such a stickler yeah um and a stickler, then, is somebody who insists on strict observance of rules for or a particular way of doing things.

Speaker 1 37:01

I think I'm a bit of a stickler, yeah.

Speaker 2 37:03

I think everybody can be a bit of a stickler for certain things, can't they? Yeah? I agree, Like you know some people are a stickler for rules as in you would never break a rule and other people for taking your shoes off in the house, or you know all of those little little things.

Speaker 1 37:19

But I can't remember if we talked about this when we were doing our Valentine's episode, but, like lyricist, oscar Hammerstein solved one of the trickiest problems in musical theatre with this song how to get a credible love song for two people who have just met. So, like previously, when two people meet in a musical, they instantly fall in love and they sing their hearts out like how this undying love In an age of naturalism in the theatre. Audiences were finding that unconvincing and Hammerstein solved this with the conditional love song, which is now a standard in musical theatre. He was paving the way to conditional love songs in his earlier musical Showboat In that a couple sang make believe, only Make Believe. I Love you. Okay. Then in Oklahoma, curly and Lori, they sing what's their conditional love song.

Speaker 2 38:31

Don't Go Gazing At Me which is in.

Speaker 1 38:36

people will say we're In. Love. We're In Love, okay, where they explore and they worry about their feelings. Which is in. People will say we're in love. We're in love, okay, where they explore and they worry about their feelings.

Speaker 2 38:51

And then, finally, carousel, hammerstein creates the perfect celebration of tentative love and the fear of emitting one's growing feelings with if I loved you, ah, there you go. I love that. We saw.

Speaker 1 39:01

I also think it's really clever play on the lyrics they sing. Words wouldn't come in an easy way round in circles. I'd go that kind of yes. So clever isn't that of Hammerstein? You know the idea of a carousel. I know you know going idea of a carousel.

Speaker 2 39:20

I know going round, but also perfectly illustrating the character's tentativeness to the situation and also because you know there is a little bit of hesitation because of the job he's doing, especially at that time, and what she's doing, and how will that look to other people and just everything.

Speaker 1 39:41

Not a warm character, I think that's where I sometimes struggle, like, don't get me wrong, I love Carousel and, as I said, I'm a blubbery mess by the end of it. But he's not a likable. He's not even a likable rogue like he's a badden, yeah, like he's a naughty boy. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like you're just right to be tentative.

Speaker 2 40:03

Julie Jordan. Absolutely, but sometimes, when the heart calls you just got to go.

Speaker 1 40:09

That's it.

Speaker 2 40:10

Give it to him good Carrie Excuse me. Give it to him good.

Speaker 1 40:16

That's a song in the show. It is it is a song.

Speaker 2 40:18

It says get away you no account, nothings with your silly jokes and prattle. And that just means foolish or childish talk.

Speaker 1 40:29

Yep.

Speaker 2 40:30

And then pollywogs. It says pollywog's head, and that's just a tadpole. Oh, a pollywog is a tadpole A pollywog. That's a great name, because then it says it's a pollywog and it doesn't grow up to be a frog.

Speaker 1 40:42

Oh, that's a cute line yeah. I don't know much about that song, like it's not one I'd have on repeat. Those are interesting musical eras.

Speaker 2 40:51

It's maybe one of the ones that's actually taken out of the film. There's two songs which are taken out, I think Queer One Jilly Jordan's taken out as well.

Speaker 1 40:57

I'm not a big fan of the film you see, of the film you see, so I'm a musical lover.

Speaker 2 41:02

three and three one of the songs I hope you got more from that and also they so Carousel and Oklahoma and Seven Brides, and all of those ones would have been on in the house whenever my mum was making costumes.

Speaker 1 41:17

So it's always one that's like on.

Speaker 2 41:19

TV wise, and it's one of the ones from the collection she has, so there's loads of background information on it. But so that's probably the first time I heard about a clam bake. Now I'll go on to more whenever we've got the clam bakes on, but it's mentioned in give it to him good carry which. But a clam bake is just an outdoor seafood feast associated specifically with new england, and often it is seafood cooked in a hot pit and steamed over hot stones.

Speaker 1 41:48

Yeah, often the pit oven it's in with seaweed. I didn't know what a clam bake was. Oh, what a real nice clam bake. There are some clangers. I have to say I think a real nice clam bake is a funny old song. Oh, what a real nice clambake. There are some clangers. I have to say, like I think a real nice clambake is a funny old song.

Speaker 2 42:08

Oh, it is, and it's the opening of Act 2, isn't it?

Speaker 1 42:10

It's just a bit bizarre. Like it sets the scene, it does the job it needs to do. But I'm just going seriously. Is this song in the same musical as You'll Never Walk Alone or If I Loved you? Another one that has me tittering and giggling because I just can't believe it's from the same musical is June is busting out all over. It makes me giggle every time. I'm like what a hilarious musical theatre song. And you know what they love to do it in their musical concerts.

Speaker 2 42:44

They do.

Speaker 1 42:45

Like I don't know how many Junes I've heard busting out of the scenes.

Speaker 2 42:50

Let me tell you yeah, it's almost like one that you would feel disappointed.

Speaker 1 42:54

Short change if you didn't hear it. It's like I'm going to a music concert tonight. They'll definitely sing Junes busting out all over and sing June is Busting Out All Over and it's a certain generation, isn't it too?

Favourite Songs and Final Thoughts

Speaker 2 43:05

So it always sounds a bit warbling June is Busting Out All Over.

Speaker 1 43:12

It just makes me giggle.

Speaker 2 43:14

I love it.

Speaker 1 43:15

They sit in June is Busting Out All Over. They sing May, it's like lyrically it's really clever. It goes through the seasons and all the rest of it. May is full of promises, but we didn't keep them quick enough for some, a crowd of doubting thomases. Now you maybe knew this, did you? I didn't. I. I wanted to know where doubting thomases came from the bible. Well, now I know a doubting th is a sceptic who refuses to believe without direct personal experience. And it's reference to the Apostle Thomas. Okay, he refused to believe the resurrection of Jesus until he was shown proof of the crucifixion wounds.

Speaker 2 43:58

There you go.

Speaker 1 43:59

But you see, that's something. You're a very good person. I don't know.

Speaker 2 44:05

Soliloquy oh here.

Speaker 1 44:06

What did you have more on clam bake?

Speaker 2 44:08

well, I haven't got on to clam bake yet, but you did.

Speaker 1 44:10

You told us what a clam bake was but clam.

Speaker 2 44:12

Listen, I told you clam bake. The word is just mentioned in.

Speaker 1 44:16

Give it to em good carry well, give me the clambake, then the real nice clambake.

Speaker 2 44:22

Okay, and then we'll go back to soliloquy.

Speaker 1 44:24

I love it, see. I love playing you and winding you up, because I know you love to do your musical lyrical lingos in chronological order that they come in the musical, and when we go out of order you lose your.

Speaker 2 44:40

I'm a bit of a stickler.

Speaker 1 44:41

You are a bit of a stickler, Taking in order what's next? It's a little gray.

Speaker 2 44:46

It's a little gray, which is.

Speaker 1 44:47

Billy Bigelow's Big Isle.

Speaker 2 44:50

And I have loved this song from I Was Little because I think I love that realization that he has halfway through where he says you can have fun with a son, but you've got to be a father to a girl. And I think, as a girl who has the most amazing father and has the most amazing relationship with her father and he would do anything for me I just love the idea of that. And then, obviously, now I have in the most supportive husband who is a wonderful father to both my son and my daughter. It's just lovely to be like. These are wee thoughts that go through, you know, people's heads.

Speaker 1 45:31

And it's the power of the like. Hammerstein is probably the best lyricist there ever has been and I'll put it out there now. If we ever do a episode on our top 10 musical theatre, numbers like Soliloquy will be in my top 10.

Speaker 2 45:52

Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah, no, it is Absolutely.

Speaker 1 45:55

It's a stunning.

Speaker 2 45:57

Beautiful. Musical theatre number, and I think yes, it is very long, but a soliloquy is long, I know, and I think yes, it is very long, but a soliloquy is long, I know.

Speaker 1 46:04

But as you say it's that rollercoaster of emotions and feelings and realizations that he goes through from start to finish.

Speaker 2 46:12

And I think, if you have a fantastic actor playing that role that you will be, you will feel that at the same moment that Billy and you'll get that realization and everything then will be like that's the part that you start rooting for Billy. Yes, that's right, because everything before that you're like he's a shit, excuse me.

Speaker 2 46:35

Yeah, also, that was the first time I learned that opera glasses are called lorgnet Because he says about when he's talking about his son and he'll marry and he's quite rude, you know. He'll marry his boss's daughter and she'll give him a peck on the cheek and she'll call it a kiss and um and she'll look at it, at him in his eyes through a lorgnette, like not even look at him properly like look in his eyes yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 47:02

There you go. Can we now?

Speaker 2 47:03

go to a clam bake. Now we can go to a clam bake.

Speaker 1 47:05

We can go to a clam bake. This was a real nice clam bake. Go on then.

Speaker 2 47:11

Fittles.

Speaker 1 47:11

Okay, that's what I had.

Speaker 2 47:12

Okay, go for it.

Speaker 1 47:13

Well, I didn't know what a fittle was. Now, am I right in saying fittle is just supplies of food?

Speaker 2 47:27

Yeah, so it's a word from fictules, which has been an English language from around 1300s, but it actually comes from Latin fictulus to mean nourishment.

Speaker 1 47:31

There you go and they sing the vittles we eat, E-T, yeah, E-T like it.

Speaker 2 47:38

Yeah, the vittles we eat and the word is associated with the rural south cowboys, pioneers, mountain men and the like. So it is something that would be said for, like you know probably what we would say in our brunch.

Speaker 1 47:52

Get the vittles out, yeah.

Speaker 2 47:54

Speaking then of Clambake, can you name all the different foods that they mention in the song?

Speaker 1 48:02

Not really Trout Not once Salmon, not really. Trite, not once Salmon.

Speaker 2 48:06

Not once.

Speaker 1 48:06

Mussels.

Speaker 2 48:07

Not once.

Speaker 1 48:08

Clams Well done Prawns.

Speaker 2 48:13

No.

Speaker 1 48:14

Lobster.

Speaker 2 48:15

Oh, good yeah.

Speaker 1 48:17

Starfish.

Speaker 2 48:18

Starfish.

Speaker 1 48:19

Pufferfish.

Speaker 2 48:20

No, okay, I'm going to tell you so. They start with codfish chowder and the onions rise to the top.

Speaker 1 48:28

Okay.

Speaker 2 48:29

Salted pork.

Speaker 1 48:31

I thought it was seafood.

Speaker 2 48:33

Oh yeah, why have I got pork? Don't know, I've got pork down anyway. Red hot lobsters. And what is the red hot lobsters doused in?

Speaker 1 48:44

Dill.

Speaker 2 48:46

Melted butter.

Speaker 1 48:47

Melted butter.

Speaker 2 48:49

And then we've got clams.

Speaker 1 48:51

Clams Okay.

Speaker 2 48:52

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 48:54

I'm not a big fan of the chowder, but this is lies. Here's my feelings about seafood chowder.

Speaker 2 49:03

Chowder.

Speaker 1 49:03

Chowder. I would love to try a seafood chowder, but I chowder, but I just think I'd be sick, would you? I think it's too creamy for me and too fishy. I love, like I love fish, and that's. That was one of my new year's resolutions a couple of years ago, that I would try and start eating more fish. And boy, have I loved it. Gone for it. And seafood, chud is the last thing.

Speaker 2 49:31

I have to try that.

Speaker 2 49:33

I'm not, having done lobster actually either, or mussels oh I'm not doing very well, um, but the fish variety I've done well, um, but, and you would be in a restaurant and it would come out and it like smells amazing yeah, it just looks really creamy and really fishy and I don't know if I'd I'd cope okay, I love all fish, all types of fish, and I would usually order and if I, um, you know, having a girl dinner or like there's nobody going to be in the house, I will just make myself a fish dinner, because not everybody else really likes it in the house and seafood chowder. So I am going to recommend for you to buy Lidl's seafood chowder, okay, because then you can try it at home and then, if you don't like it, you can just book at home, but it's actually really nice, okay, but yeah, and I would make my own fish pie and everything.

Speaker 1 50:24

Maybe I just need to come round here.

Speaker 2 50:25

Yeah, just come round here Mussels lobster, I'll do the lot for you and we can sing.

Speaker 1 50:30

That was a real nice clam bake.

Speaker 2 50:34

Love it. That was my last Musical lyrical lingo. Glad to hear it.

Speaker 1 50:41

I don't mean it. I never mean it. What were your standovations?

Speaker 2 50:45

Soliloquy and I do love your queer run, julie Jordan. Yeah, I do love it.

Speaker 1 50:51

That's it. I was soliloquy. If I love you obviously. But do you know what one of my favourites is? Mr Snow, isn't it great? Oh my goodness it's adorable. Yeah, cass, isn't it great? Oh my goodness it's adorable. It's when Cassie Casey, yeah, cassie, cassie, cassie, cassie. Carrie, carrie.

Speaker 2 51:10

It's Carrie, not.

Speaker 1 51:11

Cassie, carrie, carrie, it's Carrie is all. And I love her because she's like, when, when Julie then tells her about Billy and how she's met Billy, she's like oh, I'm so glad you've met him, because I've met someone too, but I didn't want to say anything until you'd found someone yourself. And oh, my goodness, the way she sings about Mr Snow and his round-bottomed boat, his round-bottomed boat and him, because he's obviously a fisherman and he smells of fish. And she's like when I first met met him, he smelled a fish, an awful lot and it was. And then she's like but I now love the smell of fish and it's like, oh, you're adorable I love it and I love that.

Speaker 2 51:53

I love their relationship and I think if you didn't have that in the musical it would be too dark a.

Speaker 1 52:00

A thousand percent you need especially in the early going. You need that because the Julie Billy relationship is so volatile. You need a truly loving, like wholesome. You know couple.

Speaker 2 52:19

Yeah, and I love as well the song where he sings to her about how many children they're going to have. And like you know, we'll start with one and then you'll have two, and then she's she says something like and we'll have eight, and our house will grow and grow.

Speaker 1 52:31

And she's like I'll grow and grow, like they're adorable, it's just lovely, yeah, in fact, I'm gonna listen to those two songs on my way home. I think like it's just really cute yeah, lovely, there we go. I'm glad we did that. Yeah, we haven't done enough, richard.

Speaker 2 52:48

We say this every time and there's so many of them, but it's best to spread them out because they are quintessentially perfect, yeah, and they are beautiful, yeah um, and the thing is, we've been trying to do this one for a while and we just have been like, oh no, not yet, but yeah, it was good.

Speaker 1 53:07

The time was right yeah.

Speaker 2 53:10

And that is one of my last memories is that you got me tickets and we went to see it and it was lovely.

Speaker 1 53:16

And we sobbed our little eyes out in the back of the stalls Like it was proper.

Speaker 2 53:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1 53:27

Wasn stalls like it was proper.

Speaker 2 53:28

Yeah, wasn't it 100%, it really was. I can't help it. Um, okay, what would patty do? Oh, here, which is really weird, because you did yours without me for last week and then I did mine this week without you. So what would you rather?

Speaker 1 53:38

see we don't plan this up.

Speaker 2 53:39

This podcast folks lead the quirky moves in the time warp but you then asked me this last week no, I didn't, or march with the band in 76 trombones from music man oh, so we've gone from.

Speaker 1 53:56

The parade passes by the 76 trombones, music man, because music man's another golden oldie, another favourite of mine, and we haven't done it on the pod yet. That and she poopy I'm all for she poopy, she poopy. It's another musical number in the music man.

Speaker 2 54:14

I'm not okay with the music man oh, it's fabulous, let's do it.

Speaker 1 54:19

76 trombones led the big parade with 110 cornets close at hand, that's the only song I know. Yeah, it's totally Music. Man, I still stand by my opinion of last week. I'm not a rocky heart, I don't have the physique. The physique For that basque.

Speaker 2 54:37

You're not getting me in a basque, okay, no, just a gold lame pants.

Speaker 1 54:44

We've moved on from the gold lame oh, that was, that was fun I can't remember what we're doing over the next next couple weeks.

Speaker 2 54:52

But you know what I do know well it's going to be a musical and we're going to do some learning, so why don't you come back?

Speaker 1 54:58

so much listen. They can come back. Let's see if I come back, because I'm on a school residential trip next week. Oh, yes, that's right. So we'll see if I come back in one piece. Let's hope They'll be there. Our listeners will be here. You'll be here, we'll see, we'll see.

Speaker 2 55:16

We'll see Okay well.

Speaker 1 55:18

Wish me luck, pray for me, keep me in your thoughts.

Speaker 2 55:23

Until next.