Musical Lyrical Lingo
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Join Tim and Lj who delve deep into the wonderful world of musical theatre and more importantly the lessons they have learned from different musicals.
Join them as they explore some of the greatest musicals ever created, from the classics to the new and exciting shows that continue to teach us something new.
So whether you're a seasoned fan of the stage or a newcomer, this podcast is for you.
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Musical Lyrical Lingo
Whistle Down the Wind: Finding Faith in Unexpected Places
Faith can be a powerful force, especially when seen through a child's eyes. When Swallow, a young girl mourning her mother, discovers a mysterious stranger in her barn exclaiming "Jesus Christ!", she believes she's found the Messiah himself. Set against the deeply religious backdrop of 1950s Louisiana, "Whistle Down the Wind" takes us on a journey where children's unwavering belief clashes with adult cynicism and fear.
This lesser-known Andrew Lloyd Webber musical represents a fascinating departure from his typical style. Collaborating with rock lyricist Jim Steinman (famous for his work with Meatloaf and Bonnie Tyler), Lloyd Webber created something uniquely powerful – a show that combines theatrical composition with rock sensibilities. The result is a soundtrack filled with haunting melodies that capture both innocence and danger, from the iconic "No Matter What" (which became a massive hit for Boyzone) to anthemic numbers like "When Children Rule the World."
What makes this musical particularly special is how it places children at the narrative centre. Unlike many shows where young characters merely support adult storylines, here they drive the action through their faith and determination. This focus creates a powerful examination of belief systems and how they shape our understanding of the world. Against a backdrop of revival meetings and snake handling – religious practices that highlight the extremities of faith – we witness both the beauty and potential danger of unchecked belief.
Despite its artistic merits, "Whistle Down the Wind" has never achieved the staying power of Lloyd Webber's more famous works. This feels like a missed opportunity, as its exploration of faith, innocence lost, and the sometimes dangerous consequences of belief speaks to universal human experiences. Perhaps it's time for this sophisticated, layered musical to receive the revival it deserves. If you've never experienced this underrated gem, start with the concept album – then join us in championing one of musical theatre's most thoughtful works.
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Hello and welcome to Musical Lyrical Lingo. We're your hosts.
Speaker 2:Tim and LJ. Today and every week we will be discussing musicals, but specifically what they taught us.
Speaker 1:Hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 2:You just asked me to be there.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, as we're recording, it is West End Live weekend.
Speaker 2:I know so many fab performances have already came to us.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask obviously, have you been watching them? Yes, yeah, I haven't watched a thing yet. I think I was going to ask obviously, have you been watching them? Yes, yeah, I haven't watched a thing yet. I think I'm going to have a bit of a binge tonight. I'm just going to sit with my dinner and just watch all of the videos on YouTube. So obviously, we're recording on a Sunday full disclosure. So the Saturdays already happened. So what am I to look out for?
Speaker 2:Well, Saturday there was definitely Hercules and Cabaret.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:With Rob and Hannah Dodd.
Speaker 1:Nice Can I just check on the Hercules? Yes, because a few outings that we've had so far have been a bit dodgy on, like public television shows that have just been a bit ropes, ropes full All good it was.
Speaker 2:Can't Say I'm In Love or Won't Say I'm in love. I won't say I'm in love and it was great.
Speaker 1:Okay, good, and what else am I looking like for them?
Speaker 2:um cabaret and um. I've forgotten what else was there not that good then no, I'm trying to see what I think, or what I've seen. I think I just mesmerized by those two.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what are you looking forward to on the Sunday billing, then? I can't remember who's all on Sunday and I'm not going back to find that big list. It's a good turnout, I think, for the show. There seems to be a lot of shows about at the moment.
Speaker 2:And I'm pretty sure yesterday they were at full capacity and they had to stop people coming in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they also had put out a heat warning, hadn't they? Because it is hot, hot, hot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Very good. So that's what's happening on this side of the pond, On the other side of the pond. Was it last weekend or the weekend before that the Tonys were on? Was it two weekends ago? Yeah, so maybe happy ending One. The Tony for Best Musical. Have you listened to the soundtrack? No, I did go and listen to it, Did you? It's really beautiful. The music's gorgeous. I think the plot I'm still a bit confused about, but you never know, it might be one for a future episode. Purpose won Best Play. Sunset Boulevard won Best Revival of a Musical Beating Off Audrey McDonagh's Gypsy. So I thought there was a lot. There was a bit of competition. There wasn't there. Darren Criss won Best Leading Actor for his role in maybe Happy Ending. It's really lovely because I remember him and Glee.
Speaker 2:Well, isn't that like two years in a row now? Or maybe it's three years in a row now that somebody from Glee has won Tony?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're doing well. The Gleeks Best performance by a leading actress in a musical did go to Nicole Scherzinger for Sunset Boulevard. So well on her. That's both sides of the pond. She's been given a nod for her performance as Norma Desmond.
Speaker 2:A nod that she isn't deserving of it, because I think she has been bad Not that I've seen it live, but I'm shocked that she got the Tony because of who she was up against. It was like amazing.
Speaker 1:Crazy talent in that category. You know you had Megan Hilty, jennifer Simard I need to learn how to say her surname, audrey McDonald. Yeah, I felt a wee bit sad for Death Becomes Her because they were nominated for loads and they didn't really walk away with very many.
Speaker 2:But I think it's just what happens. I've seen this throughout. This podcast is sometimes who you're up against. It's just a really tough year and it's not had it been another year where there maybe wasn't as many outstanding musicals, you probably would have won and listen, Wicked didn't win the Tony and Wicked's still around Like we have had.
Speaker 1:That's a really good idea for an episode. We should do an episode on those musicals that didn't get the Tony. That'd be quite cool to like look into.
Speaker 1:Like the the biggest shocks yeah um, wicked being one of them, obviously, um, and then, uh, one more I wanted to mention was just Jack Malone, homegrown talent for Operation Mincemeat. So it's also been successful on both sides of the pond. Really very, very exciting. And I don't know what happened this year. It's almost like the podcast has done its job again. Do you remember we were talking about how annoying it is that now you can't seem to be able to see any like clips? Yeah, what's happened? Because cbs were all over it this year and, like I, was able to watch almost every performance that was done yeah, I think maybe they just heard our cry.
Speaker 2:I think they listened to us.
Speaker 1:I think we have such such sway in things now in the world of musical theatre, like we just we pull the strings, really, don't we?
Speaker 2:Audrey McDonald's performance was my standout Outstanding and she probably the first way I've ever seen Mama Rose played like that Psychotic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just her performance was so unique to any of the others. Do you know what I mean? And like, let's be honest, mama Rose has been done many times by many like actresses at the top of their game. So, yeah, it was quite exciting to be able to actually see that performance this time. That's great.
Speaker 2:Are you going to talk about the controversy that's going on in the West End at the moment?
Speaker 1:Can I talk about an issue in Broadway first, just for a wee minute. So it's really interesting because I came across a video of Susan Stroman. So you know theatre producer and she was. She was very openly putting herself out there, kind of just saying that she doesn't like the Broadway system and how shows come about or how decisions as to whether shows make it or don't make it come about in Broadway. And she says, as a producer, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to put a show on in Broadway because of it.
Speaker 1:And the way the Broadway system works for people who didn't realise and I didn't really realise is that it goes on the show's grosses. And it makes more sense to me now as an adult, because I remember back in the day, like looking at broadwayworldcom and like there's a section on you know that that's a brilliant website which documents how much money all these, all these shows are making, and I was like that's really weird information to be out there. Do you know what I mean? But it now makes sense because shows make it or break it based on how much money they're making. And the point that Susan Stroman was making was that, you know, in the West End it's much easier to put on new work, because that new work is given a bit of time to embed itself and it's given a bit of a chance yeah, to become a hit or to be successful, whereas in broadway, if it doesn't hit those high grossing figures within the first couple of months, then that's's it and it's the end of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it's no. I could have got this wrong, but I just think it's from the research in Beetlejuice. It's like within the first 12 weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's a random selection, because this is what happened to Beetlejuice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is they were tested, you know, as in, their seals were tested, say, one random Wednesday to Saturday or something like that, and happened to be a real slump. But the 11 weeks on either side of that test. The show was sold out so it just is like a luck of the draw, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Well, this is it. So then, following on from that Broadway's Smash, the musical has became the first post tony um casualty because of this reason. So it's going to end and I can't. I can't believe I'm saying this because fans have waited so long for a smash musical. But it's going to close. It's going to finish its run at the Imperial Theatre today, sunday, the 22nd of June, after 32 previews and 84 regular performances.
Speaker 2:That's not enough time for a new piece of work to find its feet, for the cast to find its feet either, and react to audiences, for audiences to tell people about it because, let's be honest, that's how Gator survives is word of mouth 100%.
Speaker 1:And also if you think of Smash the TV show and how successful it was, I think the musical would have had people coming from near and far, but you've got to give them time to get there, do you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And prices are too expensive. It's not like people can just hop on a train and go in, you know, to new york or even go to london. You know you're having to really save these things for for major events now, and you know that's a problem too. Producers are expecting them to make so much money quicker when actually we don't all have that disposable income that we maybe had like 25 30 years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah and that's another one of the casualties is Will Real Women have Curves? The musical which I mean? They did a performance at the Tonys and then you know, a week later they're given their closing notice.
Speaker 2:And Cabaret's closing as well.
Speaker 1:And Cabaret is closing and on that, billy Porter and Mauritius Wallace, who were in Cabaret in the West End, they are going over to be the final stars to appear in that. Yeah, it's closing on the 19th of October.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they have said that it just hasn't been as successful on Broadway as it has been in the West End.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know they're obviously hoping with bringing Billy and Marisha over that that will help generate some income, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's wow, wow, wow. Enough for Broadway.
Speaker 2:I think they're just not giving as you say. They're just not giving things enough time.
Speaker 1:That's it. I mean, they've had some fantastic names in Cabaret Across the Water. So you know, billy Porter and Marisha Wallace are taken over from Eva Noblezada and Orville Peck.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:You know like if they're not drawn in the you know, the audience? Nobody will, yeah. So I thought it was quite interesting to have come across that chat and she was so brave, like as a producer, she was really brave to kind of say it's not a great system. They need to look at it. There's too many shows that are casualties because of it, and then you see a massive show like smashed Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Close.
Speaker 1:Like what a disaster for them. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was in workshop for a long time. It wasn't like it was a really quick turnaround or anything like that.
Speaker 1:And I also don't like the reviews of it have been good, like I don't think it was a bit of a flop of a show. Do you know what I mean? It's just, um, it's just, it's quite interesting, isn't that how you know the two different? You know epicenters of musical theatre work in such different ways, um, but yeah, moving back to the West End then, are you talking about the? Um, uh, the Palladium's production of Evita?
Speaker 2:I think I might be yeah, rachel Ziegler, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the issue is that she is performing the most iconic song in that show on the actual balcony of the Palladium and it's being filmed and broadcast into the theatre. So people are complaining that people who have paid money to see the tickets are watching it on a screen, whereas, you know, people walking by outside the theatre are able to watch it live. Yeah, I totally take their point. I mean, I think it's a stroke of genius from the production team, who is Jamie Lloyd, but I also kind of think, yeah, it's very clever. But also we've just seen you do something similar like that in Sunset Boulevard with maybe that's just his style, because yeah so at the end Shay comes out in his boxers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, comes out in his boxers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, comes out in his boxers. This time Shay is covered. I think it looks like white and like baby blue paint the colours of the flag, whereas in Sunset it was blood. But you also like I don't want to discredit him because he is like I would love to see a production done by him, I would love to see Evita, but I also am kind of going is it becoming a gimmicky now and obvious? Now? This is what he does. He does something to camera which is then you know from outside the venue and it's broadcast to inside. Does his leading man strip down to his boxes for some reason and get covered in something it's very samey like, which I'm surprised at?
Speaker 2:I'm surprised at, because, yes, there are two Andrew Lloyd Webber shows, but they're not the same. Yeah, so I'm trying to even think.
Speaker 1:But also directors, don't repeat the same thing over and over and over again, like from one performance to the next. You know, production to the next?
Speaker 2:No, but maybe, like their signature style will be in it. Like I mean, if you watch a Wes Anderson film, you can tell it's Wes Anderson because of his style and the same as Steven Spielberg.
Speaker 1:Because of his style, but it won't do the same thing. No, but, and he's just doing the same thing.
Speaker 2:We haven't seen it, so it seems like he's just doing exactly the same thing.
Speaker 1:I completely Don't get me wrong. I would flippin' love to see her and she's really good. Her Evita's excellent. From the videos I've seen Like I'd love to be walking past the Palladium and she comes out onto the balcony and sings her song Like that would be class. But if I've paid money and those tickets are not going to be cheap.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's it. People are paying upwards of 80 points.
Speaker 1:Now you could argue, it's one moment within the whole production, you know, but it's also the moment Like Don't Cry For Me. Argentina on the balcony is the, you know, the pivotal moment in that show that they're seeing on a screen. I don't know, Maybe she could do an encore at the end of the show. What do you feel about it?
Speaker 2:I mean, I definitely can see the artistic direction as to why he chose the movie to do that. There's a balcony there. It's famously sung on a balcony, but then maybe he should have pushed it and made it more submersive for the audience where they went outside and watched her sing it.
Speaker 1:Let's just take the whole of the Palladium out onto the streets.
Speaker 2:We can't do that because they're numbered, do you? Know, let's just take the whole of the palladium out onto the streets. We can't do that because they're numbered. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:I'm just saying that's where he wanted it. Yeah, or even if split, if it was possible, split it in some way where she starts it on stage and ends it out in the balcony, I don't know. Yeah, just so that they're getting the best of both worlds, maybe.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's quite a bit, it has blown up I mean I love it because the people are talking about theater yeah, you know and it's all like it was on this morning.
Speaker 1:It's oh, has that really people?
Speaker 2:are, people are talking about it oh wow, right okay I think any conversation where we have musical theater at the forefront of that conversation is going to make people want to go, and maybe they're not going to want to go and see Evita, but they're maybe then going to go. Okay, do you know what such and such is on?
Speaker 2:And you know it might get them to have a conversation about here. Do you know what? I went to London once and I seen X, y and Z and it was really good. You never know where these conversations could end up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, true. I just love when people can experience theatre, no matter where it is yeah, this is a good segue to the musical we're doing today. So Evita, obviously one of Andrew Lloyd Webber's massive big hits, and Andrew Lloyd Webber seems to be a fan of Jamie Lloyd and Jamie Lloyd seems to be a fan of Andrew Lloyd Webber. So you never know, because today's musical could be the next reincarnation you heard it here first. Could you imagine Like I think I'd drop dead if this ever happens? Could you imagine?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you heard it here first, that's true, it's been a while since we've looked at another Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, so we're going to return to his catalogue, one that's not as spoken of or hasn't had as many outings as, personally, I feel it should have, because I do like this one.
Speaker 2:It's whistle down the wind yeah, and I know, and not very many people, as you said, know about it. Um, some people will say it wasn't one of his best I see I disagree.
Speaker 1:It's up there in my top three and some people will say that it is one of his best yeah, yeah really has a mixed audience yes um, it was another new venture.
Speaker 2:As in. He got a different lyricist yeah um, we'll talk about that. So it's a little bit of a different style for andrew lloyd weber yeah wouldn't be something that you would automatically go. That's an andrew lloy, an Andrew Lloyd Webber, a bit like what we're talking there's hints, there's elements of his style, but it's not in your face. An Andrew Lloyd Webber musical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's fair to say. It's also another one of those shows that took a bit of tinkering and a bit of changing about before it kind of found it's it's you know.
Speaker 2:I still feel that it hasn't. I agree been done justice. Is that right, I think?
Speaker 1:there's still something that needs to be done to it to make it for us, you know. I think you're right. I think it still is missing something, or that might be the difficulty as to why it's not being done.
Speaker 2:Could be as much.
Speaker 1:But yeah, whistle Down the Wind is based on the novel by Mary Haley Bell and the film by Richard Attenborough, and it was directed by Brian Forbes. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Jim Steinman, together with Patricia Knopp and Gail Edwards, who are the co-book writers with Andrew Lloyd Webber, have taken the original story and reset it in Louisiana in 1959.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So Jim Steinman. It might be a popular name because he wrote the likes of Bonnie Tyler and Meatloaf and I would definitely say if you're a fan of Meatloaf, particularly Ballad of Hell, then this music will feel very similar. The music in this musical it's quite rocky, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah?
Speaker 2:it did premiere in the National Theatre I love that theatre in 1996. Did you know I performed in that theatre as well.
Speaker 1:You might have mentioned it on the pod a couple of times.
Speaker 2:Lauren, but at that point it was, and something that we constantly see over and over again with Andrew Lloyd Webber it was a concept album. So in 1998, it was then, as you said, revised and this revised version ended up in the West End in 1998. It had a UK tour in 2001, a West End revival in 2006. There was a US tour in 2007 and a UK tour in 2010. Now I do think that there was another UK tour in 2002, and we'll talk about that later on, not quite now.
Speaker 1:Okay, We'll talk about that later. Yeah, so when it opened in Washington DC in 1996, it drew mostly negative reviews and the Broadway opening that had been scheduled for 1997 was subsequently cancelled. Yeah, and then they took it, brought it to London, basically, and opened it in London.
Speaker 2:Now, good old Harold Prince directed it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's it.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't that there wasn't some great creative people behind it I just don't know, maybe I think this is where maybe people don't love it, because there is does need to be a wee bit of I don't know something, just more work, it feels like it's a play, do it just needs, or you know, a bread just before it's ready for the audience just needs a wee bit more work.
Speaker 1:The reworking for London certainly was a much darker production than the one in Washington and that was revised and directed by Gail Edwards, who had previously worked with Andrew Lloyd Webber on the updated production of Jesus Christ Superstar. Then, in 2001, the late Bill Kenwright that's it. He produced and direct his own production of Whistle Down the Wind for the UK tour and he was granted a considerable amount of creative freedom.
Speaker 2:Which is really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think well, it sounds like Andrew Lloyd Webber knew they still hadn't got it right. Yeah, maybe. So you know that freedom was authorised by him. You know to make significant changes to the dramatic structure, and if you're changing the dramatic structure of the musical, it's quite significant amount of changes that must have been made. And then it obviously went on a tour. And then Bill Kenwright was invited to direct the US tour, which began in Houston in 2007. Yeah, however, the planned LA and San Francisco dates were subsequently cancelled. Then yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's just not an American musical. Maybe that's it, maybe it just.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's it, because when Bill Kenwright and we know that the late great Bill Kenwright did have some amazing creative insight into musicals but he ended up replacing a section with a new number which is called the Gang, but he actually got lyricist Don Black, in which, again was a slightly different, completely different feel to. Jim Steinman sort of his signature different, completely different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jim steinman, sort of um his signature. It is interesting though, isn't it, when you start to invite more and more creatives in, you know, during that process of changing things, because then I think even the feel of it or the what the flow of it can can become affected. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, so what is it about?
Speaker 1:it is about. It's set in america's deep south in the late 50s, and the musical revolves around a teenager, swallow. First of all, I love the names in this, like swallow and spider and like they're really cute. And swallow is struggling to come to terms with the death of her mother when she discovers a mysterious stranger, whom she believes to be Jesus, hiding out in her barn. In a town where a miracle is long overdue, the children fight to protect him from the adult world, determined to find an escaped convict hiding in their midst.
Speaker 2:Andrew.
Speaker 1:Lloyd Webber's score combines hauntingly beautiful love songs and then the explosive rock music with lyrics by the acclaimed rock and roll songwriter Jim Steinman. I do like it, I do like the mixture of it all.
Speaker 2:It's definitely a kid's show.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's definitely a kid's show and one critic, terry paddock, said um when he was writing for what's on stage, said there hasn't been such a showcase for west end prodigies since the curtains fell on oliver okay um, and I think if we see this as a kid's show, you could do it really well because the focus of obviously they have a lot to do in it. But you know, say sometimes, um, when musicals are put on and they have kids in it, like kids are seen as like an extra yeah rather than the main focus.
Speaker 2:Oliver and Annie are always kids shows, so you always know that your stars are going to be the children. Well, maybe the problem with this is that they haven't really focused on the children. Yeah, they focused on the story.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting? You say that because when we get to our musical lyrical lingos, we might come back to that point of view of seeing it as a kid's show, because obviously when we were introduced to it, we were, we were kids. Now we weren't old enough to be in it. Yeah, was Caitlin in it? Was Caitlin in it? Yeah, yes, because Adam. So my brother was in it and your younger sister was in it, and I was so annoyed. I remember sitting in the theatre watching them being really annoyed, not that they were in a show and that I wasn't, but that they were in this show. Because I think, as you say, it is a kid's show and the kids have a really pivotal role in it, and I remember being a slightly older kid feeling that. But we'll get onto it when we come to Musical Lyrical Lingoes. There it goes again, though, with the concept album. It was well with it, you, it was well within that realm of this is what he did, andrew Lloyd Webber, you know.
Speaker 2:And then that worked for him, for all those big ones like Evita, superstar and Joseph and all of that.
Speaker 1:So he released it, didn't he?
Speaker 2:Yeah, released it in 98.
Speaker 1:Prior in advance of the show's West End premiere.
Speaker 2:yeah, Also Peter Haepel. He wrote for the stage. He said it has everything for um. This is on the way, which I thought was interesting. It has everything good tunes, strong story with a real sense of drama and a strong family appeal yeah which I thought was interesting, because this is another musical that doesn't make me feel good at the end of it. It's not one. I'm scared of Okay, but it doesn't make me feel good. I feel a lot of emotion. Yeah, in this musical, a bit like how Les Mis would make me feel.
Speaker 2:I feel, a bit like I need to.
Speaker 1:You've been through the mill watching that.
Speaker 2:So I think maybe, as what we had sort of said, you said about, maybe is cabaret just not all glitz and glam for Broadway. Is that maybe why it didn't work yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you know and this might come across really terribly, but I kind of feel like when you look at the West End and you look at the different music, I think the breadth of what the West End provides audiences is just a bit deeper and darker at times. Do you know what I mean? And I don't like the word that's in my head is sophisticated. I think there's pieces of really sophisticated musical theatre where there's real different levels to what you're seeing. Do you know what I mean? And it's not necessarily big, big scale.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, but I might be wrong, in that I haven't been to Broadway for a very long time. Do you know what I mean? Like, maybe when I was in Broadway I was younger, so everything did look bigger and brighter and glitzier and more like in your face. But it's those sophisticated pieces of musical theatre that really get me going. Do you know what I mean? I don't need a big dance number anymore or a big chorus show, like I'm dying to see Benjamin Button. It's an example of a piece of theatre that I think, or the general feeling I'm getting, is it's just really layered and gritty. And do you know what I mean? There's an element of sophistication to it and I do think Whistle Down the Wind has all of those different layers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what he said is true.
Speaker 1:And the themes are so gritty and real and you can get your teeth into them and they are real yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, what about your musical lyrical lingos then?
Speaker 1:Well, so, as you were talking about, it's a Kid Show. What I learned from sitting watching it and remembering it as a child was just that the power of hope through the eyes of children and how that really came through. I remember watching it and like the songs that the children sang, like when children rule the world, they were like anthems. Do you know what I mean? And I was like children were in charge and they were. The children are the heart of the show. Yeah, Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:And that's what that really stood out to me when I was watching it, that you know, that idea of exploring faith and belief and the power of hope, particularly through the eyes of children who see the world with a different perspective. It highlights that conflict between innocence and prejudice, you know, and how even hardened adults can be touched by the power of belief and compassion, of belief and compassion, you know. The children's unwavering belief in a stranger that they believe to be Jesus, even when faced with scepticism and danger, is a central theme, you know, and the musical suggests that even those who are perceived as bad can have redemption through acts of kindness and belief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the children, this is gonna be a double negative, isn't? Children never don't believe that the stranger is jesus, like they 100 believe in him and they have very little evidence, which is faith, isn't it? Yeah you know there's sometimes very little evidence, no matter what your faith is on what, but you believe in it because there's. There's something that you're holding on to and yeah that's majorly what what this is about.
Speaker 2:It's also as well as about faith, belief and seeing things through children's eyes. There's a massive bit of loss of innocence, like kids have to deal with the fact that their mother died when they're so young, like that's not something anybody wants. To deal with the fact that their mother died when they're so young, like that's not something anybody wants to deal with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and especially.
Speaker 2:You don't want, like a young child, to have to deal with that. And also there's a major warning where there is dangers of unchecked belief. You know the kids believe that this man is Jesus so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He doesn't correct them at any point and there is a danger in that not having their facts right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it in essence it, like it, just encourages viewers to question their own beliefs and be open to the possibilities of miracles and appreciate the power of hope and compassion, even in the face of adversity yeah yeah, but I did like I remember watching as a kid going this, this is, this is rocking, like look at these kids, like I'm so proud to be a kid right now yeah, no definitely you know like felt like there was power in kids, yeah they could have like stood up and, I suppose, watching it as well.
Speaker 2:See, I always think, whenever you're watching something, that is a small town.
Speaker 2:Now we, we live in Northern Ireland, which is a massive country yeah but our town is quite or it's a city is quite large yeah but so we can't really comprehend those small, especially in America, those small towns where it's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles before they see somebody else. Yeah, you know, and there's some people that live in America that don't ever leave their town, let alone their state, yes, let alone their country. Yeah, do you know and like to us. That's quite difficult to look at. The kids could have power over these adults.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, Because sometimes, whenever you're a kid, you don't well you feel like you're powerless, powerlessless, yeah, especially when an adult is involved, because they're older they're wiser, and it's only as you get older you realise not all adults are good people and not all adults know what they're talking about. And you know that loss of innocence and I think it comes back to and we talked about it at End of the Woods.
Speaker 2:You know, when Red meets the wolf, and she doesn't at any point say that she regrets that and she just says, like nice is different than good. And you know, it's just that if you really look at her song, she just talks about oh, things are different now because I, now I know that the world isn't as bright and cheerful as what I once thought it to be. It's not bad now, it's just different, yeah, yeah, so see deep, that's what I mean thought it to be. It's not bad now, it's just different, Different, yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:See deep, that's what I mean. It's deep. You might not necessarily, this might not necessarily work in America, because of the deepness of it. The deepness true.
Speaker 2:What about that expression? Whistle down the wind? Did you know what that meant?
Speaker 1:What to whistle down the wind, mm-hmm, no.
Speaker 2:What? To whistle down the wind, mm-hmm. No, so it does mean to let go or to abandon. Oh okay, and but it's funny because the song which is called Whistle Down the Wind, whistle down the wind. Is that the Tina Arena version?
Speaker 1:Let your voices carry.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful song. The mum sang this and then we're introduced to the song when the dad's singing it and the kids go, mum sang it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mum sang it better. It's the promise not to abandon. The whistle down the wind actually means to abandon, so it's funny that the song Well, that's it.
Speaker 1:Because it's got a whole Within that song. It's got a whole series of images about lighting bonfires and stemming the tide and burning torches and howling at the stars, whispering you're sleeping, crying Every possible thing a human being can do to send a signal to someone else that says please be here with me, I'm in trouble. Yeah, it's basically an emotional SOS call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know which is crazy.
Speaker 1:But what clever lyrics and writing yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Whistle Down the Wind is actually mentioned first, apparently in Othello. Oh right, okay. So Othello says of Desdemona, did I?
Speaker 1:say that right Desdemona.
Speaker 2:Desdemona, his lover, and he says if I do prove her haggard, though, that her jesses hear my dear heartstrings, I'll whistle her off and let her down the wind. To pray a fortune, he will have nothing to do with her if she is cheating. So he has been told that she is cheating, which she isn't um, and he has. He will say I'll whistle her off and let her down in the wind isn't that interesting.
Speaker 1:So that is like they had to have got that from othello. So there's that, and whistle down the wind, then vaults of heaven. The lyric the nights have been growing darker, even darker than before, is an allusion to the poem that appears in the 1963 novel the Chill by Ross MacDonald, a reading of which appeared in Pandora's Box in the 1989 album Original Sin, and its lyrics are if light were dark and dark were light, the oh no, the moon, a black hole in the blaze of night, a raven's wing as bright as tin, then you, my love, would be darker than sin. Ah, so they've clearly like plucked you know wee bits from various other you know significant pieces of literature. Oh, here we're going into classroom now, club up.
Speaker 1:I remember obviously being a kid right watching this and in the song, no Matter what one of the kids sings, I got a great big seashell. You put it to your ear, then you can hear the ocean. It's like you're really there. And that was literally what I believed and what I was told. Oh yeah, when you picked up a seashell and you put it to your ear, it does like sound like you can hear the sea, and I just was like oh it, it's true, they're singing it too, yeah cute right yeah, really good.
Speaker 2:that is lovely that most people will know that song, no matter what, because boyzone sang it and boyzone were only able to sing it because steven gately and was a fan of musicals and he actually approached andrew lloyd we and at the time or just shortly after, he ended up being in Joseph.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, yes, he approached and said that he would really love to sing, and Andrew Lloyd Webber thought this would be a good way to promote the musical, so he gave it to one of the largest boy bands yeah, the words, the lyrics sorry are slightly different on stage compared to what boys sing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but a are slightly different on stage compared to what boys in sing. Yeah, and, but a beautiful song, absolutely. It was released as a single and then had unprecedented success. It went platinum and was voted the uk's record of the year 1998 and then obviously a number one hit in the uk and was included in the huge hit of a film that was notting hill. Yeah, that's right, you know. So, huge hit of a film that was Notting.
Speaker 2:Hill. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:So that concept album was quite successful. It had a real collaboration between Jim Steinman's clients. You know those artists he wrote for and then big names in musical theatre, like the artists included Tom Jones, tina Arena, boyzone, as we've mentioned, then Liam Page, donny Osmond, the Everly Brothers, signs of Blackness and Bonnie Tyler.
Speaker 2:You know big names and actually if you do a bit of research on Whistle Down the Wind, the concept album is actually the first thing that comes up. It's not the musical, yeah, and trying to get an original cast recording. Sometimes the concept album comes up and you'm like I do want to listen to Tom Jones. I want to listen.
Speaker 1:I want to listen to the soundtrack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all my musical air going goes. That's all I learned.
Speaker 1:The other two big things I learned were this and I remember at the time of watching it it was probably the parts of the show that made me most scared this talk of revival meetings and snake handling yeah, like I had never heard of any anything like that. Do you know what I mean? And obviously it was a? An interview I read by Jim Steinman was very interesting with regards to why they changed it to Louisiana, which then links in with these revival meetings and snake handling.
Speaker 1:Originally, when Andrew Lloyd Webber approached Jim Steinman about being involved in Whistle Down the Wind, he wasn't sure. He thought Whistle Down the Wind was a great fable and a great sort of mythical little tale, but wasn't sure if it would make good music. So it was only when Andrew Lloyd Webber then asked him well, what do you think about setting it in America? That Jim Steinman immediately thought of the Deep South. And he wanted to set it in the Deep South to capture the same essence of Tennessee Williams and to kill a mockingbird and to write a musical that wasn't for old people and their parents, but a musical that had mainstream appeal. Right, so then Louisiana? Why Louisiana? He needed a set. Jim Steinman felt he needed a setting that lends itself to eruptions of songs and a setting of heightened extremism. Louisiana was an incredible treasure. He said so musically. It was a wonderfully colorful place, louisiana Plus, in terms of the plot it was great because Louisiana really is in the Bible Belt in America and you mentioned about.
Speaker 1:You know these places are really away from everywhere. You had mentioned that earlier and I was like, oh, that links in with my musical lyrical lingo. So people, every minute of their lives, were obsessed with religion and the Bible in a way that isn't the same elsewhere. And it made sense to set it in a world where people would believe that Jesus Christ had returned, because every minute of their lives they're being told Jesus is coming back. You'd better prepare yourself to recognize him. They visited New Orleans for research purposes and a lot of the story is based on a town called Donaldsonville and Steinman said I swear it could have been 1959. Obviously, when he visited it wasn't. He said the cars were the same and literally every car had a bumper sticker about Jesus. In every store window there was a sign that mentioned Jesus. Religion was rampant. He said it was everywhere. It was like entering a whole different world, not a sophisticated, questioning cynical world. So fast forward to these revival meetings. They were big in places like that.
Speaker 1:Revival meetings are Christian religious events designed to rekindle or increase enthusiasm for faith and religious practices. Fine, absolutely, for a lot of these revival meetings to include snake handling, or sometimes known as serpent handling, as a religious rite observed in these small, in a small number of isolated churches. Snake handling had been a practice in the South since the turn of the century and it was based on Jesus' word in Mark 16, in my name, they will pick up serpents, they will drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. So these worship services usually included singing, praying, speaking in tongues and preaching At the front of the church, behind the pulpit. It was a designated snake handling area. Believers may approach to the front, pick up the snakes, usually raising them above their head or into the air, and sometimes snakes were allowed to slither all over their bodies Rattlesnakes, cottonmouths and copperheads, venomous snakes of Native America were common practice, and even cobras had been used.
Speaker 1:Some believers also engaged in drinking poison. Like all of those activities had been used. Some believers also engaged in drinking poison, like all of those activities, just seem like mind blowing to us. Do you know what I mean. Yet here they were presented in this musical and here I was sitting as a child going what you know, and like some of those numbers you better be prepared to wrestle wrestle with the devil. And, and you know, the young kids like swallows, younger siblings were like, oh, please take us to the revival meetings. Like you know, we want to see the snakes, but like that in itself was scary and like had that scary undertone within the musical and I have no idea about any of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and I suppose, because it's a small and it goes back to what I sort of said about the dangers of unchecked belief, or you know, just because this was a small town and they were all doing it, they didn't really have many outsiders coming in going. Oh, I don't know if this is exactly what you should be doing or that's exactly what you know Jesus meant, or whatever you know. They just thought, yep, this is it and we're doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, there was nobody to question it, so it was okay, it was accepted, yeah.
Speaker 1:I kind of think it's one of those musical soundtracks that people might not have listened to, yeah, and I think you should go and listen to them because also, it's it's great and that you get the storyline, you get the plot throughout from the, the soundtrack. You can follow it really easily.
Speaker 2:but there's some really, really beautiful pieces of music like I think some of andrew lord weber's good stuff comes from this musical there's a real change, like there is some real rocky songs like I said you know, if you're a fan of um uh, fat out of hell yeah um, you will recognize it, but there are, as you said, there's some real delicate songs, um, but, yes, that that is one thing, and I suppose, because he was so good at writing concept albums, you can get the story from just listening to it and you feel that angst. Yeah, you definitely do, and that oh, my goodness, you know a bit like, do you know in West Side Story, like we're gonna da-da-da-da-da-da-da, do you know?
Speaker 2:that sort of like rhythm. You've got that. Like especially in what's the song Nature of the Beast.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like that is like. You're like, oh, something's going to happen and I need to be prepared for what it is.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Is that your stand ovation then?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when Children Rule the World and.
Speaker 1:Nature of the Beast.
Speaker 2:I do like Kiss is a Terrible Thing to Waste.
Speaker 1:Me too. That's one of mine. I just think the man who is the convict, or who they believe, is jesus some of his songs are beautiful and I think I'm going to get technically here. There's parts of it, there's a lot of it that he does in his falsetto which makes him sound vulnerable and makes him sound like it's weird. He is a convict, obviously, but you like, totally feel for him, like you are, you almost are on his side at times.
Speaker 2:Because you're seeing it through the eyes of the children.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So, therefore, you're seeing it through the eyes of the kids who believe that he's Jesus, and you know, whether you believe or not, you believe that Jesus is a good person, so therefore you're seeing him and you're going. Well, he must have been set up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but musically it's written in that way too. And then he switches In the same song. You know he'll be floating like a bird, singing these beautifully falsetto phrases, and then it's almost like a growl. Do you know what I mean? Because he has angst in him as well. So I love Unsettled Scores that he sings, and Kiss is a terrible thing to waste. I also do like Try Not To Be Afraid. Yeah, oh, it rips my wee heart out, but obviously Children Rule the World is, so one that stays with us.
Speaker 2:I also loved vaults of heaven too I like it's a great opener, but I also every time I hear it and I have to go and listen to it. There's elements of jurassic park in that. What, yeah? Oh there are. There definitely are. But yeah, I like lots of heaven too. Do you know what I sometimes see? And it's not. You know how my brain works? Whistle Down the Wind and Footless. Footless went in a dark direction and you've got like do you know how? Footless is like a small town.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:With the weird sort of rules, and then you've got whistle down the wind. I, if you were having to put on a series of shows with similar-esque things, I would be putting them.
Speaker 1:You think they're similar bill yeah just because of the small town mentality small town.
Speaker 2:Right, there's something going on there, you know they're underlying currents, there's an outsider that comes in, not always for good. I just think you could. They're not the same, they're not the same, but you could almost put them a bit like how you can put, like you know, all musicals based on historical events together.
Speaker 1:They're not the same, they're not talking about the same historical event, but you could grip them together, but, as we do this podcast, that that list is growing. Who knew so many musicals were based on political events or political figures? Um, I did allude to it a couple of episodes ago. Just how much I love this episode or this podcast for reintroducing me to you know musicals or soundtracks that you maybe haven't listened to for a long time, and this was one of these. Like, I really did go down you know um memory lane with this and I went, oh, my goodness, this is a flipping brilliant musical and a brilliant soundtrack. So thank you musical lyrical lingo for reintroducing. Like I had a fantastic week. I listened to it in the car, like every day, and I was just like, oh, this is brilliant Same, and I think I listened to it so much.
Speaker 2:So let's give a wee bit of background. It was 2002. It was a tour. It was coming to Belfast and our stagecoach was approached to have the children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to supply them.
Speaker 2:you know, we obviously had to be a certain height yeah age and we weren't selected we didn't make the cut but that didn't mean that we weren't practicing, we weren't singing the songs right uh, you know, so we were doing it and obviously our siblings were in it, so we probably were like it was like a double like double-edged because we didn't get chosen.
Speaker 1:Just kick a kid while they're dying, why not?
Speaker 2:So a lot of the time we were singing these songs and like, definitely when children were out in the world, like that was it. So listening to it, it was like it was bringing back some really lovely memories. So, then I wanted to research that tour, which was really difficult to find. So I wonder was it a non-equity tour or something? I don't know it was a little bit difficult, but Tim Rogers played the man.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Katie Raleigh-Jones played Swallow and she's the original Nessa Rose.
Speaker 1:So she is.
Speaker 2:Scott Cripps was Amos the dad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Adelaide Thompson, she was Candy. Was Amos not the young boy? Oh, the dad, yeah, adelaide Thompson, she was Candy.
Speaker 1:Was Amos not the young boy?
Speaker 2:Oh, the young boy sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sorry. And then Mark Inscow-Bone. He played Phantom.
Speaker 1:Oh, there you go. So they've all gone on to do really well for themselves, haven't they? They've all gone on and done some really really nice things.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that was fun as well because that was kind of a new-ish musical at the time. You know, we were also involved in Joseph, which wasn't a new-ish musical, but this was new, so that's what I always remember about Whistle Down the Wind is it's a new musical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there we go, there we go. That was a really lovely episode.
Speaker 2:Do go and listen to the music.
Speaker 1:Please do listen to it because like it is brilliant, like it's a great soundtrack, absolutely brilliant. And I would love and we know this the way that our podcast works. We put it out there and it tends to happen nine times out of 10. I would. I think it is time that somebody did a revival.
Speaker 2:Do it, do it, do it, you do it, you do it.
Speaker 1:You do it Sure. It's a show I'd love to work on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it'd be great.
Speaker 1:Just because there's an enthusiasm in me for the show.
Speaker 2:And because it's kind of kid-based as well. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I do love working with the kids, like give me a young performance any day. Might be a good teenage one to do. I mean, it's a great one for the amateur world and a few companies have done it, but I'd love to do a large scale one. I think it'd be class.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's your next project.
Speaker 1:No, I'm all right. Thanks, Do you have what would Paddy?
Speaker 2:do. Oh yes, what would Paddy do?
Speaker 1:To end our episode, and then we can get prepared of what we padded out. Oh yes, what would, what would Paddy do To end our episode whilst, and then we can get prepared for the, the monster that is about to come our way.
Speaker 2:It's exciting. Okay, so would you rather, or Paddy, perform the lead role in your favourite musical?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, or be in the ensemble of a musical you don't like that's kind of an obvious one, isn't it?
Speaker 1:like you know what I'm just gonna be in the ensemble of this really crap show. I think I'll give that a go. No dear, I'm going to be the lead role in my favourite musical, but the problem with that question is I don't know what my favourite musical is well, I would just say Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:If you had to do one of the lead roles, you're going to go back to Will, but the role that I've.
Speaker 1:No, but I've done it three times like I can't keep flogging that dead horse like I've done it. There are people out there that would do it far better than me now I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:I am award winning.
Speaker 2:Let's just not think of that. Just perform a lead role in your favourite musical. So it might be a part that might not suit you and you have to perform it.
Speaker 1:I'm still going to be a lead role. Lauren, I'm not going in the ensemble, although you learn your best work in the ensemble but I think I've done my years in the ensemble, so I'm ready to take the lead role see, I knew the performance bug wasn't quite ready yet.
Speaker 1:oh no, it's completely diminished. There's no hope of me getting back on stage ever again, but these are hypothetical, aren't they? What's not hypothetical is what we're doing next week ever again, but these are hypothetical, aren't they? What's not hypothetical is what we're doing next week. What are we doing? I think we tell them because, let's be honest, I would say, there's a lot of our listeners that have waited a very long time for this moment, and we're not throwing away our shot. No, we're not. What are we doing?
Speaker 2:We are doing Hamilton.
Speaker 1:God strapping. I'm having cold sweats thinking about it.
Speaker 2:We are going for it. Yeah, it's taken us three years.
Speaker 1:For a reason.
Speaker 2:It's a large musical.
Speaker 1:It's blooming massive Right. I don't have time to talk anymore. I need to go and do a bit of research on this bad boy so you may come back. I mean, if you don't come back next week, there's something wrong with you. Call yourself a musical theatre fan. We're doing Hamilton.
Speaker 2:Yeah, join us then Bye.
