Casual Camping Podcast
The best camping discussion both in and out of the field. Light-hearted chat with two brothers (Ade and Tim) who love all things camping-related. Camping is their happy place.
We started this podcast because we both found that we had very busy lives and we weren't speaking to each other enough. When we did talk, it was always about camping. By putting a podcast episode out every week we make sure we keep in touch. It's as simple as that.
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Casual Camping Podcast
Tent Designer Interview
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Imagine having the job of designing the one thing we are all obsessed about !
This week Ade and Tim talk to Jason Gilmore, tent designer at Vango. The man with the dream job. Listen as they discuss how the process works from start to finish. They also talk about what their own tent designs might be.
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Welcome to season four of Casual Camping Podcast, your home for the best camping discussion both in and out of the field. Here are your hosts, Tim and Aid.
SPEAKER_03Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Casual Camping Pumpcast.
SPEAKER_02Come on to I'm gonna tell you something. Are we doing wrestling uh uh mate?
SPEAKER_04And in the brown corner, it's Aid. He's not never in the brown corner. Can I be in the blue corner? You've not had a shower for all camping weekend.
SPEAKER_01What again?
SPEAKER_03Um how you doing? I'm alright, I'm alright. It's uh busy, busy as always, but not with not with camping. It's um so yeah, it's uh I uh I was meant to be camping last weekend and fair weather mate let me down, and other other mate uh totally let me down, so I was you know I went out for a beer and curry instead. Hey hey it's it's not a bad second place. No, to be honest, I had a I had a good time. I had a good time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, well, I was supposed to be going to uh a little festival up in Newcastle and um the British motorway system conspired against me, as well as you know me having a bit of a meltdown because it had been such a busy week and uh yeah, stuck they closed the motorway. Why can't people drive properly?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I um I I heard about the trouble. You were you were several hours without really moving, weren't you?
SPEAKER_02And it it were it was just like, yeah, I'm I'm not even gonna be good company, you know. I was gonna get there in the dark with everybody drunk. Um I hope they were gonna be drunk, um and it it was just like you know, and I made the wrong decision, I know I did, by the time I got home, because I turned around as soon as I could do, uh, because I was only I think I was 45 minutes from home, and I still had four hours to go. So I turned it round and was like, yeah, I was fed up, right, okay. And then as soon as I got through the door, I went, You've made the wrong decision, you should have just gone.
SPEAKER_03So I don't I don't think you did. I don't think you did. It's um you know, you'd already spent hours in the car, you you would have needed to take a break. If you hadn't done you might have been the idiot driver causing another mistake, and um and you would have got there late, you wouldn't have been able to pack um unpack properly, everybody else would have already been drunk and and and having a laugh, and um you'd have then gone really, really hard with your booze and got in a real mess, and yeah, I I just think yeah, I think you made the right decision, as gutting as it is to have to you know pull back from something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um yeah, so gutted, and then you uh you said uh hey, do you want to go camping this week and uh stuff? And uh it's my good lady's birthday, so we've got festivities, unfortunately. So, but I uh I'm eager to get out, and uh I tell you what, I don't know why they do it, but end of the camping season, there's a lot of new kit out there.
SPEAKER_03Oh, there's tons of new kit out there. It's um there's loads and loads and loads, tons of new kit, tons of bargain stuff of of this season stuff that people are selling off. It is it's like a camping fire sale. There's so much, so much on offer.
SPEAKER_02So much on offer. Those shops that you know don't do camping all year round have got the best. Yeah, you find some good stuff in Halford's, I find, at this time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. There's a load of camping stuff in the middle oil of Aldi. Um, you know, those budget supermarkets, they've always got those weird and wonderful stuff in there. There's a lot of camping stuff in there at the moment. It's um, you know, and I know most people have closing their season down, putting stuff away, but you know, if you buy it now and put it away till next year, it's like it costs you nothing.
SPEAKER_04Hey!
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Certainly. If you pay for something uh a certain year and then the year changes over before you use it, it's costing out.
SPEAKER_03It's costing out, yeah. It's cost nothing. It's cost nothing at all.
SPEAKER_02Um I really enjoyed last week's uh episode. I thought that was funny as a good rebuttal. So thanks uh to Tom for his good naturedness on pulling us up on our vocabulary, which is still as bad as ever. But you don't come here for facts, listeners, you come here for hopefully we're like a campfire, we're like a warm ear hug for yourselves.
SPEAKER_03An ear hug. It's um that's cool. We do have a um uh five-star mediocre review on the back of last week's episode from uh from Helen Lewis. And uh Helen says, I drive to work listening to your podcast. I struggled this morning with tears running down my eyes.
SPEAKER_02Um what's wrong with you, Helen? What's wrong with you? Same thing that's wrong with us.
SPEAKER_03She's the idiot that obviously caused the problem on the motorway if she's driving with tears running in her eyes. I mean, come on, love.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for writing in, uh Helen. It's always nice to hear those. They're a nice little pep in the uh arm for us. Shot in the arm.
SPEAKER_03Shot in the arm, pep in the step. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, maybe. That's a good one.
SPEAKER_03Oh pepping the step, everybody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I like it. I like it, Tim. God. You should be I'm I amaze myself at how much crap we can talk.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is nonsense, but you know, thanks for joining us again. So if it if it is, you know, coming to the end of your season, um, you know, maybe you're putting stuff away. Maybe you are thinking about what do I need to do, what are the things that I need to buy for next year, what would make the next camp even better?
SPEAKER_01You know, the uh Christmas fairies do like to bring uh things like wood burning stoves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was thinking more of a uh uh tent stove, uh but you know. I know I uh yeah, I don't charge uh for sweeping them, but no, anybody who goes camping with me, I'm not doing your stove for you, could you?
SPEAKER_03I want you to bring some little tiny chimney chimney brushes.
SPEAKER_04I've got 'em. Oh man, really?
SPEAKER_02I've got a three-inch uh brush head, yeah. Easy, easy, make your own jokes, people.
SPEAKER_03The girls don't want to see that, Eddie.
SPEAKER_02Oh dear, we went off topic really quickly. Um, yeah, I saw the post this morning from Yeti. Have you seen those little cases that they're doing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, the little mini loadouts. It's um that's like uh that's like a Russian doll of Yetis, isn't it? Really? Because I bet they all fit inside each other, and you just end up with one massive loadout that's just full of loadouts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the larger one looked like a briefcase, and I think it should come with a handcuff and a chain. Like you're carrying gold bullion.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say, save it for only pans. If you walked around with a with a briefcase handcuffed to your arm, someone's just gonna cut your arm off, aren't they? They're gonna assume there's something in there worth having and they're just gonna take your arm off.
SPEAKER_02The laugh would be on them, Tim, because they'd be nounting it.
SPEAKER_04That was so bad, Multimer. Oh, that was fun.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, uh yes.
SPEAKER_04I'm laughing at you from a hospital bed, maybe that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Although I have this lost to Yeti.
SPEAKER_03Maybe that's what happened with Jeremy Beadle and his funny hand. One too many Beatles about.
SPEAKER_02He was harmless, Tim. He was harmless. So while we're talking about this uh uh week, I have given you three topics, Tim, and Russian ruler as to which one you're going to uh choose.
SPEAKER_03Lazy Boy's gonna pick a pre-recorded interview that we've done. We um we spoke to a tent designer, and uh which has got to be one of the best jobs in the world if you are a camper person, and um and uh Jason Gilmore was uh super cool. I mean we we got about 20 minutes with him, um, but he was he was a good guy to talk to. And um and it's you know designing tents. It's um what is not fun about that? That's just like a great you know, imagine having that on your on your um on your C V tent designer. I designed tents, that's cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I think we all think that well, I like to think I'm a bit of an expert because I know what I like, but imagine having that job that you've got to do various things, and he was saying lots of things about family tents and you know all all those things that you need to do for different people, different groups.
SPEAKER_03It's far more complicated than you realise, isn't it? Should we um should we jump to the interview?
SPEAKER_02Cool. Let's let's jump. Sorry, I was drinking there, cheers, by the way.
SPEAKER_06So my name is Jason Gilmer. I am the technical product manager slash designer um for Vangle. Been here for eight and a half years, and my favourite product would be the Force 10 classic UL2 that we've just released this year for the 60th anniversary.
SPEAKER_03That is an awesome tent. We saw that at um Outdoor and Social earlier in the year, didn't we, Aide?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Jason, are you winning at jobs? Am I winning at jobs? Tent designer, come on.
SPEAKER_06Um it has its ups and downs, but um more ups than there are downs, but yes, it's pretty good place to be.
SPEAKER_03Surely you're supposed to say it's got its pitches and its pulls. Hey, ho ho They don't come here for comedy, Tim. I'm not sure what they're coming here for at all. You you've got, from our point of view, you've got the dream job because you get to design tents. How how do you even start?
SPEAKER_06Uh it depends on the design of the tent, so it depends on what our aim or objective is going to be. So if it's something totally new and radical, research, research, research, pretty much. And then if it's tweaking a current design, again, research development, look at the competition, try not copy anyone out there, try to be your own, um, unique. And I think that's what's kept us going for Force 10 and Vango and the brand in general. We try not and copy and paste, which is good.
SPEAKER_03No, that is that is really cool. I mean, you you know you innovate as well the whole industry because you invented air beams. It's um uh and I know that's a that's a a trademark, a uh a a brand a brand name, but uh air tanks air tents wouldn't exist without Van Gau.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you're absolutely right. And there's also other technologies we've used, like TBS, the tension van system, we've patented that as well, and that's in almost 90% of our family awnings and then lightweight technical tents. So yeah, we're still innovating, still pushing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I um uh that is incredible because we we were camping last year, weren't we, up in Northumberland, and our sister had a Van Gogh tent, and she kept saying, Oh, you know, uh you guys have got really expensive tents, and I've got this family tent, and uh it had the tension bands in it, and the wind was just horrendous. It uh it kind of it wrecked your Robin's tent, tall to all your Robin's tent. Hers was the only tent that absolutely stood, and she was uh she was really quite proud after the storm. Yeah, she was walking around with a bit of a walk on, wasn't she? Like, oh, a little bit taller today. Yeah, no, it's it's incredible technology.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think when you look at even our entry-level tents, so we've got like Nevis, Scaffel, Hovellin, they're price-pointed tents, but they've got all this unique technology like TBS. So we start from the ground from this lowest price point all the way up to lightweight tents like the helium. So they have iterations of the TBS, but it's all through the sort of sort of DNA of the tents that we do.
SPEAKER_03Makes them super stable, doesn't it? I was in the Nexus 2 up in Scarborough or down in Scarborough from where we are, um, on a cliff top uh a couple of weeks ago, and it was windy as hell, but that thing did not move at all. It's it's so stable. We took it up Snowden, didn't we, a few weeks ago, camped on top of Snowden in it, and again it didn't move. It was it was great. It's such a stable tent.
SPEAKER_06I think it's also good to note that some people forget TBS is there. We've seen some videos and some funny videos and not so funny videos of people, people's tents breaking from other brands, won't name any names, but when people actually realise the TBS system's there and they activate it, the tent's not going anywhere. As long as you've pitched it properly and activated the TBS with the clips and it's bomb-proof.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it really is, it really is.
SPEAKER_02And because that that's an internal uh structure, it doesn't affect how pretty the tents look, you know, they're they're they're just they're beautiful tents that uh are in the range, but you know, it's an internal thing that just uh can't be seen generally.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, for the weight that it adds, it's minimal, it's like per tiny percentages, one or two percent onto the weight of the tent, but the actual stability and strength that increases the overall shape is astronomical, especially and high winds. And we've tested our tents rigorously across well, wind tunnels across in Asia where the tents are made, but also in the UK and Scotland, the weather, some places you've mentioned there as well, we test them out to make sure they stand up, and Scotland's probably the worst place in the UK for terrible weather at the moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. We we learnt that this morning about six o'clock. The uh the tropical rain that fell on the tents was quite impressive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it really was. Very loud. Um do you do you think actually being situated here in Glasgow, being so close to the environment that you do plays such an important role in the in the tent design?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I would say so. We're we're only like 45 minutes roughly away from Loch Lomond. Um, so like Ben Lomond, you even further you've got Ben Nevis, then further up you've got the Cairngorm Mountains. We do some work with the guys up at Glenmore Lodge as well, so shout out to the guys for helping us, they help us with some developments as well. So it's having those like not not just us and Van Gogh and Force 10, but having those experts testing the products as well is really good because we get some insights into how mountain leaders and mountain rescue uh would use our tents totally different than what we would use.
SPEAKER_03Amazing, amazing. Are there any are there any sort of frustrations with your job? So do you ever like design something? You know, you must have designed stuff that never went into production and you think that was a missed opportunity. Are there any tents that we wish we'd have seen as as consumers?
SPEAKER_06Um there are a few I can think of. Um there are specific brands that brought out tents that go on top of cars, and we missed a trick with that specific brand. Um but listen, we're not experts in that field. Airbeam is our expertise. Um low-cost bomb-proof tents are also our expertise. So, like I mentioned, Devis, Scalphell, Havelin, they've been in the range for 15 years, I think it's our 15th year anniversary this year now. So that just shows you how long the longevity pretty much. So we spoke about that before we'd done this podcast, the longevity and the people that work here, but also longevity and the names of products. So we try to keep these products around and it just shows that they're working still.
SPEAKER_03That's the thing, isn't it? If it's well designed in the first place and does the job it's designed to do and does it really well, you don't need to change it, do you?
SPEAKER_06There's also a few other products that we would design that get through. So we have a development process, so of like a year or two year cycle. And we call it well, when I went to university, I done product design, it's the double diamond process, so it's discover, define, develop, and deliver. Now we we get through those phases, but sometimes we have these development meetings, and sometimes a product might not make it, so we need to make sure our emotions not attached to it. Nine times out of ten, I'm pretty emotional in the room when the products get canned. But I try use I try to put my heart's on my sleeve most of the time as a designer would be, but you have to agree to disagree sometimes. But we just park them, we bring them back out maybe in a year or two, because we've got a lot of products that have came out, right product, wrong time. So you might see some new neuter products coming from us soon, maybe. There's a teaser.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I think I was camping in one of those new products last night.
SPEAKER_03Not allowed to tell, not allowed to talk about it, Aides, not allowed to talk about it, no pictures. No pictures, it'd be right nice though, wasn't it? Oh, it really was, yeah. Especially with that rate.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it was tested. It was tested.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it was, it was. Um so I've got an idea for you for a tent. Um, because you know, I I'm gonna give you this. I'm gonna give you this. We've come up with some good stuff over the years, haven't we? We're just giving it to the world. Um, so I'm thinking, uh, what about having an upstairs to a family tent? You do airbean technology, can you not do an inflatable staircase and just have another floor? I cannot comment. Surely that's bounty castle's territory, Tim. No, no, no, you've got that fancy internal strapping stuff, it won't bounce bounce around at all. I I think I think you could do staircase and then have like a bunk bunk barn. You could call it the bunk the Vango bunk barn.
SPEAKER_06Well, I think double deck or sounds a bit better, but I don't know if that's trademarked by a certain confectionery company.
SPEAKER_03But I didn't realise it was the first of April today. No, I'm guessing this is a no. Yeah, maybe you should stick to nursing Tim.
SPEAKER_06Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, it's not it's not my bag. It wasn't a yes or a no. All I'm saying is no comment, that's all.
SPEAKER_03So if we see it in a couple of years' time, it's because he's literally he's he's gone to gone to his boss and gone, I've got this idea, got this idea. But I think we just need to play around with the airbeam technology and just see if we can do some stairs or a ladder. You could definitely do an airbeam ladder, couldn't you?
SPEAKER_02What about a slide? Oh, we're both busy castles again.
SPEAKER_03And when it's raining, have the slide on the outside. It's the water park. No, no, yeah, no. Sounds like we're mocking them now. No, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Honestly, I I genuinely thought that that might be an you know, nobody's done a an upstairs to a tent. Believe it or not, that has came up a few times, a few years.
SPEAKER_04I am not an idiot.
SPEAKER_06Don't go that far. Um, but it comes up almost every year, and we're trying to get the strength and beams, trying to get the right fabric. So it has been an idea, that's why I'm saying no comment. I'm trying not to give anything away. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god. So do we need to edit this bit out now? Because it might be a future product. Take it back, Tim. You might not be in no yeah, yeah, let's not go that far. Let's not go that far. No. So how do you you know, because it's interesting when we think about tent design, where I immediately think it's just all about shape. Um, and actually you're saying it's not, it's you start with what the function is, and actually a huge amount of design is is all the technical things to actually make the tent work rather than just the shape of it. I I assumed it was all about wind flow over tents and how you can uh manage the stresses of wind flow by putting poles in different positions, but it's it's far more technical than that, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so we it usually depends on the end use, um where it's going to get used. Uh we usually think about the end goal in terms of the specific weight, the fabrics, the materials, the coatings, the price point, um the geometry of the tent, the structure, um the poles, how many poles? Is it one pole, two pole, dome, geodesic, semi geodesic? Might be seeing all these fancy words, but I think a lot of people will know what they are. Um but it just depends on our end objective at the end of the day. So if you want a two-season or three-season summer style tent, or do you want a four-season bomb-proof tent, then we need to look at shapes, crossovers, triang triangulated walls like we've got on the Nexus and Force 10. We've got some I don't want to say it in too much, but we've got a some new similar simple shapes that are coming out that are four season um weather. Um but yeah, it depends on all these sort of um what did I say? It depends on the criteria of what we're trying to achieve. So if we're looking for a bomb-proof tent that's gonna be in the snow, then we look at heavier fabrics, heavier coatings, robust more robust poles, thicker poles, longer pole sections, more crossovers, um so that'd be a geodesic tent or a dome tent. And then if it's super lightweight, it'll be a single pole, two pole, like the helium or the radon. So it's quite a lot of different sort of things we need to check off first.
SPEAKER_03It's amazing. And you mentioned that it's probably ultimately ruled by what the price point's gonna be at the end, because if you're if you're working to a price, all of those materials cost X amount, don't they? And if it's more complex to actually build um uh by your manufacturers, then I suppose that all increases the cost and the cost.
SPEAKER_06Um yeah, I I would say it all depends on what's happening on the market as well, because sometimes the market will totally shift to well, the the past five-10 years, not a lot of North American brands have come over. Um, so they're doing inner pitch first tents, so more high more ventilation. But what we have over there tents is we've got more waterproofing. So our fly sheet and ground sheet. The fly sheet is about a minimum 3,000 mil. Some other brands are 1,500, so half of that. So it's a heavy shower, you might get some water ingress there. Ground sheet, especially, we've got 6,000 at least on the ground sheet, which is which is pretty high. Do have other brands out there that perform a little bit higher and they're a little bit thicker on the ground sheet. That's what we do, we weigh as well. So there's other brands out there that maybe do half of that on the ground sheet, which aren't really UK weatherproof. So we need to factor all in all the things, sort of the the UK weather. Um I think that's one thing we got over quite a lot of other brands, like our us in Terranova are probably killing it in UK right now for just the price point, what we're trying to offer, and the sort of UK protection against a lot of other brands.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a lot of those, um we've talked about it quite a bit, haven't we? A lot of those, particularly North American brands, they um they seem to be making tense for for California and Arizona. It's um pitch in a first and really um lots of mesh. Um they're really, really not built for our climate at all.
SPEAKER_02No, I I've owned a couple of them, and uh I I think as well the fly sheet is cut higher, so where UK brands tend to be sort of come down uh so that you don't get any water ingress. Um that's certainly my experience, which I didn't really think of at the time, but then you know when they fail on you. So yeah, think about the environment you're gonna be using it in, and if it's primarily UK-based, think about that, you know.
SPEAKER_03That's the benefit of being UK based, isn't it? And particularly here in Glasgow, you get the weather. You really get the weather. So you're designing stuff that that will will um perform in the in in the UK weather, and we you know, we really get some rain, don't we? We really get a lot, you know, up here in Scotland you get a load of snow. We don't really get much snow down uh down in England um where we live, but you get a lot of weather here. So designing tents that can perform in that, you know, that's kind of where you should be buying.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we get f four seasons in one day usually, and it's you you see the photography we've done, we do that in-house, and it's very difficult to get a week of good weather to do photo shoots. So that's why a lot of our like technical um products look quite dull and grimy because it's in Scotland and obviously it's the where it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03But what don't don't let the uh the photography people hear you say that and they'll they'll be coming for you.
SPEAKER_06Um one thing I will say as well on performance of us um within the industry as well, is at OTS no not OTS, sorry, at and social, there was a wind tunnel um that was there by the guys at Hilliburg that we know well, and they asked everyone to put their tent in front of the wind tunnel, and not a single brand would do it, apart from myself and Chris. We pitched the Force 10 um classic UL2. It was at some points it looked it it was felt pretty grim in front of that 60ml an hour winds, but we managed to get it up as soon as the fly sheet was over it, it wasn't moving, and it was good, it was actually quite strange to see no other brands were doing that, and there was some high-end brands there that didn't want to put their tents there because they'd probably fall apart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we um we were watching that from the sidelines, weren't we, Aide?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we noticed that you you were there, you worked like a team, it was brilliant, really, really good.
SPEAKER_03And that that tent was not moving uh in that in that with that wind uh that wind machine. It did not once you once you got it um pegged out and uh and up, it was rigid, it was absolutely brilliant. And it's you know, it stands quite tall, doesn't it? It's not something that's hugging the ground, it's um but it it just did not move. But you're right, nobody, nobody else, there were a lot of brands there, nobody else put a tent up in that wind, it's um which I think says it all.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and it just shows a testament that what we're doing is we're designing these products for the actual end use and where we see them fitting. So they're UK specific. We do sell a number of tents across Europe as well, so it's good to see European customers purchasing our tents. Still a market we're still trying to tap into, but UK is where we're trying to dominate, and I think we do it, like I mentioned, as in Turnover do it quite well because they've got some really nice designs and so of, so I think we kind of compliment each other when you go into retail stores. And it's not really I think sometimes people think brands hate each other, but we don't. We we do like each other, we do talk, and we're not OTS. I sit and chat to them and you try and have a chat and get some information out of them, which they never do. But um I think we compliment each other really well, and I think we're we're we're doing a good job, the pair of us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um you mentioned uh a little bit earlier about um trying not to say uh have a tent when you're designing it that looks like somebody else. Now I would say that there are quite a few tents that look I'm not necessarily thinking of Vanguard here, but um that you know how difficult it is it when you're doing a geodesic tent or uh a pole that just goes over the centre that looks similar to somebody else? How how um how difficult is that to stay away from?
SPEAKER_06Really difficult because when you're trying to design something, there's a there's a few times where I've tried to think of a design and I've got it all the way to nearly the end of the the life cycle and tried to put it to market and then another brand would come out with something similar, and you just go, I can't release that now. It just looks like you're and we when when a f a product's finally finished, we have this sort of like six months before we release it to get all the sort of marketing assets, photography, and obviously getting the product made, shipped to the UK, and then we release it, and within those six months, sometimes a product could come out and you're shooting yourself in the foot going, all right, we need to stop this. But it is really difficult. Um I think it's really hard to innovate from the ground up in this industry, so that's why right now we've got a solid range where we're just adding here and there. One of the tents you used last night, which is a unique shape. I won't mention the name of the tent, but that's something it's a similar shape to some other models out there. But what we have to do is just change the pole configuration, make the porch bigger, add some more vents, change the guy line systems to make it a little bit more stable, or add TBS, add our unique features. Um in Force 10, we've got other products like the Xenon, so that's a really unique shape because it's got that gothic arch pole. Not I don't think any other brand has that style of tent, so it's been in the range for almost 10 years. Same with the helium, it's got pre-bends in the pole. Pre-bends there to create more volume, not just to have that sort of hoop shape, and that's a unique sort of shape we've got. So we're trying to reinvent the wheel but also just keep ticking over with what we've got.
unknownYeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I really like the the banshee, and I don't see m you know the anything like that out there at the minute.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so for the 60th anniversary, that came about about two, two and a bit years ago where our our board, our team, our management said, right, the 60th anniversary is coming up, what can we do? So, first of all, I thought, right, well, let's make the Force 10 classic, let's reimagine it in a lightweight form. And then the next one was the Banshee. Banshee is recognised across the industry, it's been around for I want to say 25 years, maybe roughly, give or take. Apologies if my boss is here on this and I should know the date specifically, but but the the focus on that was to create a really ultra-light um version of it, not the not the most lightweight tent. So the the banshee 2 currently is two and a half kilos. I think that one's half the weight of it, which is all we do with the fabrics, the pole configuration, it's an external pole clip configuration. It's more aerodynamic as well for the flow of the wind. You don't have the pole sleeve against it. So all these sort of tweaks were how to make it unique. Um, but it's really difficult to change the banshee shape because that's why everyone loves it, is the shape of it.
SPEAKER_03It's uh it's an iconic tent on uh on on the hills, isn't it? Everybody recognises the banshee. It's um but uh we did uh we got our hands on that. Um didn't manage to get out in the field in it because you you very kindly lent us three ultralight tents. We managed to use two of them before we brought them back. Um but I did pitch it in the garden and it is absolutely beautiful. It's a beautiful tent.
SPEAKER_06One thing I will say is I was quite nervous to reimagine these tents because one, it's a big it's a big deal in the industry to it's a big responsibility, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03And you don't want to mess mess it up some and you don't want to break an icon, do you?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but one thing I will say is what hut home is Paul Mesner was at OTS, he's a massive advocate for the brand in general. I don't think I don't I don't think he's an ambassador, he's just a he's just a lover of outdoors, a lover for Van Gogh. He done a video on the Banshee, and I was like, Well, I need to get this to him. And then when I saw him, he's like, No, I want the Force 10 classic. And I never thought of that because he's used that before when he was younger and uh scouts and things like that. So, but he's used it, he's done a video of it, and that's probably where it's hut home that I've done a an okay job or a good job because people like that who've used these tents in and out, done videos on them, you want to make sure you've done it justice, and I think hopefully we have.
SPEAKER_03That's really cool. He's a he's a good guy. We um we're going hot tent camping with him uh later in the year when uh when the weather drops again. It's um he wants to come camping with us. But uh, yeah, that's really cool that that people like that who we all respect in the community, you know if they put a big tick in it, then you quite rightly should feel pretty proud.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna say, do you when you're out camping uh want to uh slap people for uh pitching things wrong? Um sorry, let me rephrase that.
SPEAKER_06Do you see people that are not using your product correctly and think, oh, they've not read the instructions or um I try not to get involved because the last thing I want is someone badgering me when I'm having a nice lovely camp, and then they might have a story of oh my pole snapped, this is your fault. So you might get that. By the way, we do this as a plug, we do spare parts in case your pole snaps, don't worry, we've got you covered. Um one thing I will say was there was a video recently actually, and it was Declan Rice and James Corden, and it was on Fox on Instagram, and they took our T300 tent. Um, and there's some funny videos of them trying to pitch it. It was all for comedy, but you should see that video of them trying to pitch it, it's hilarious. And James Corden gets himself in a hot mess. Um, so I wish I could say to him, I'll show you how to pitch it. But um, uh when you go at Cameron, people usually know what they're doing, and if they don't, sometimes I would go over and say, Can I give you a hand? and they might tell you to bug it off.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I've I've I've helped people out before when you can see that they're they're struggling with things, but there there is always that worry, isn't it? But it must be, it must be. I guess the point you're making, Aid, is is if it's a tent you've designed and you can see somebody completely messing it up. I suppose the um the temptation must be there to go and say, but equally, yeah, I I I get that you just kind of want to be have a nice time camping yourself.
SPEAKER_06Well, I will say I haven't had anyone pitch anything specifically I've designed wrong because it's probably been designed right.
SPEAKER_03And as we've already learnt today, you've got beautiful hand-drawn uh instructions inside every bag, which is uh which is very cool.
SPEAKER_06So if you don't know how to do it, try.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh thank you very much for coming to talk to us. Uh we really appreciate it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Uh no, thank you. And hopefully we can get you out um on the hill again, all of us together next time.
SPEAKER_03That would be really cool. That'd be really cool because Chris is really boring. What an amazing guy he is. Um, what a really interesting, interesting chap.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, really interesting, and you know, the things that he was talking about there, I think just it's more more more detail than I kind of realised. I thought it was just, you know, just you know, what would you like to see, or what do you, you know, going into the minutiae of fabrics and weight and you know what you're doing and how it performs and and feedback. I think I love the fact that you know they really listen to the community and make sure that they're offering uh something that is not only the apex of quality design and things, but that it's hitting price marks, that they're repairing. Um, you know, what a fabulous time we had at Van Gogh.
SPEAKER_03No, it was it was it was absolutely brilliant. I have to say I am completely vindicated because I have been mocked and laughed at for my idea of my idea of a double decker tent, or as I like to now call it, the bunk barn. Um, and I I was certain with airbeam technology, which of course Van Gogh uh Van Gogh invented, that now it's got so far that you could easily make a bunk barn a uh a double decker tent. And I was not laughed out of the place. They've actually been looking at stuff like that. So I am I am not the idiot that um everyone including myself thinks I am.
SPEAKER_02Get on a t-shirt, Tim. Get on the t-shirt.
SPEAKER_05Oh god.
SPEAKER_03No, I think I I look forward to seeing what they're gonna do with my amazing idea of of the bunk barn and um and see what a a two-tier tent actually does look like. You know, you could even take it further and do a two-tier roof tent. You know, imagine you know, triple decker. That's you know, the world's your lobster with this. You could go massive. You could go huge, huge with this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I think uh JK Rowling and her triple decker bus might uh try and say that she invented it first.
SPEAKER_03Oh this is you say there's a tie in there, you know. You put Harry Potter on Harry Potter on anything, and it's like, oh suddenly it's worth three million. It's um oh god. So what would your what would your idea for a for a crazy tent be then? If you were a tent designer, what would you design?
SPEAKER_02I um I I I don't know. I'm not very creative like you. I I would just go for it'd be it'd be like that golf, I'd just I'd copy somebody else's design, I think. Be like that golf ball that uh North Face did. Uh you know, I still I still hanker after that and look for it on eBay every now and again in case somebody's giving it away for like 50 pence. Oh, yeah, I'll have that. Ted, you you you laugh at me, but one day I'll turn up with that and go, yeah, got it, got it for like a 50 quid on eBay.
SPEAKER_03Got it for nothing.
SPEAKER_02Got it for nothing. You know how much it was two grand normally when it came out. So 50 quid is nothing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Oh, it is, it is. I have stood in the three-meter version of that, and it's um because it is a full golf ball, essentially, it's um there's very little actual ground space. You don't get three metres on the ground, you get three metres at waist height, and um uh so there's there's actually very little space in there to actually do anything with. It's um it's a bit of a weird tent, I uh I would say. I think it probably works in like the big seven meter versions, because then you've got enough space, but um but yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you know, and I and I think the the thing is that it's very showy, isn't it? And you pitch that anywhere, you the whole site's coming over to talk to you about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but as you pointed out before, it so looks so bloody fiddly with little sticks here and little sticks there that literally it's probably gonna take you about four hours to put it up. It's um I don't I don't know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I um I I mean so there you've touched on something because actually if I was designing it, uh if I was designing something, I'd kind of go over things like that and go, why do you have little tunnels for poles to go in? And why can't you just put the poles in and then have those little clippy over things that just pull it in instead of because what everybody says is it's a ri you need two people just to kind of pull the fabric through. Um so yeah, you know, I I think that'd be uh I you know somebody else's uh idea, but I'd think I'd better it. Could you air first?
SPEAKER_03Could you could you airbeam that? Could you do like hoops around the outside at different heights with then connecting verticals to make a a um to make a ball essentially?
SPEAKER_02I think so. I mean that's kind of what Hemp Planet is doing, isn't it? Yeah. Uh with a lot of their stuff. So they're coming up with some crazy designs, but just the rigidity of uh airbeam for Van Gogh or uh airframe tents for anybody else, uh it's a trademark to Van Gogh just in case nobody else uh uh knew that. Sorry, uh if we've overstepped the line. Uh anyway, um so yeah, I think I think they they're coming up with some crazy, crazy designs, which uh I really like a lot. But since I've got my airbeam tent, um I uh yeah, I I'm I'm a full convert. But saying that, that you know, it's not like oh right, okay, I've got an airbeam tent and that's it. Uh, you know, I'm all what's the next thing? Ooh, yeah, yeah. As always like tents. As always, always like tents.
SPEAKER_03I I have to say I've noticed different brands, but there's a there's quite a few on our so on um on social media at the moment of your bunker style in either sort of tan, olive green, or black, um, coming up all the time at the moment. And uh and you uh you know you've had yours a little while and you're definitely ahead of the curve, but um it seems to be like a bunker style tent is um is is is the next trend or the the current trend that's coming in. So well well done you for being ahead of it, but um it does give you like a massive space, doesn't it? That bunker.
SPEAKER_02It really does. And I'd seen those before, but they were quite small, so you couldn't stand up in it. Whereas mine, uh the front of it is two metres, the back of it is 1.5 metres, so you know, where you put your bed and stuff, much easier. And yeah, you know, it's uh bunker style tents. Uh yeah, there might be one on eBay.
SPEAKER_03Well, let me let me just put it add that to it then, and and actually say bunker barn. Because if you could put another level on that with your air beams or your airframes, then you've got a bunker barn tent, haven't you? You say I am the gift that keeps giving to tent designers, you know. Whether they want it or not. Yeah, I'm that unwanted gift that keeps on giving.
SPEAKER_01Oh, brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, yeah, I um yeah, I I I love talking to him. He was so knowledgeable, and just you know, getting his inspiration, seeing what other people are doing, and also checking the competition to make sure nobody's actually stealing your own things. So yeah, I think that that felt very uh insightful about you know who's doing what. Have they just done a a direct copy? 'Cause We do look at tents and say, well, well, that that looks like that one. What's the difference?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And the the interesting thing was that they could take a tent almost to pr full production, and then someone else brings one out that looks quite similar, and then they just have to pull the whole thing, and all that work is gone. Um and that that's gotta be really gutting, hasn't it? It's gotta be really gut in, but equally, if you bring yours out, even though you've done it completely independently, someone else will go, Well, you've just copied X, Y, and Z, and you just that damages your brand, doesn't it? So you can't do that. But um really fascinating world of of making tents and designing tents and putting them into production. And I um and he was literally like two days after we saw him, he was flying out to China, wasn't he? Where um to their manufacturing centre to uh to ensure quality control and of materials and build and everything else. It's um what a what a life that guy leads. Jet setting tent designer. Who knew tent designers would be jet setters?
SPEAKER_02Well, I um I think as well uh if I'd have known that there was such a thing as tent designer at school, not that I went to school, but you know, I I'd have done everything in my power to sort of go, right, that's the course for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, had they said that that was a job though, I probably would have imagined they'd looked similar to a geography teacher with like scruffy hair and and jumpers with holes in, leather patches on their elbows, sandals made out of old tyres. Um, that's my geography teacher, Mr. Gilbert, I'm describing there. Um he was a top guy, but yeah, he he looked like a geography teacher. Um you wouldn't imagine a tent designer would be quite cool, but um Jason was uh Jason was pretty cool actually, he was a pretty cool guy. Alright, Tim, get a room.
SPEAKER_02You know, he was very cool. He was very cool. I um yeah, yeah, just just fascinating. I um I loved it. I loved it a lot. Cool.
SPEAKER_03Should we go for a um a minute minute mindfulness? Sounds great. It always does.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the casual camping minute mindfulness. Let the sounds of nature take you back to the camping field.
SPEAKER_02So I always like to listen and go, Oh, I wonder what it'll be this week.
SPEAKER_01I wonder what it'll be.
SPEAKER_03It'll be the deflating airbeam sound. Oh yeah, no, cool. It's um so what have you got on this weekend? Then you've got parties galore. Um parties galore.
SPEAKER_02We we've all already done presents because it was uh um Mrs. Sweep's uh birthday on Tuesday. And uh and she uh yeah, liked everything that I bought her, you know. There might have been some Yeti in there. Gift for you, gift for me. Are you not using that water bottle?
SPEAKER_04You're not you're not using that loadout box.
SPEAKER_02I felt I could get away with it, yeah.
SPEAKER_04What do you mean you don't like a Mora knife?
SPEAKER_03Oh dear. Oh well happy birthday to uh to Mrs. Sweep. Happy birthday to Mrs. Sweep. Um please everybody on socials wish Mrs. Sweep a happy birthday uh when this episode goes out, and uh there'll be lots of birthday messages, and I apologize I've forgotten to send a card.
SPEAKER_02Do not I uh yeah I've forgotten more cards than uh I've eaten hot dinners, Tim, and I've eaten a lot of hot dinners. I uh yeah, well, it's uh yeah, so a busy weekend. I wish I well, it'll be nice to spend time with family, but I wish I was going camping with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I wish I wish we were going camping tomorrow night. I was hoping to fit a uh a quickie in at um but it's uh it's not it's not gonna happen now, but that's that's alright. That's alright. Don't have to go camping every weekend.
SPEAKER_04What am I saying? What am I saying?
SPEAKER_03Okay, cool. Well, um I hope everybody has a great weekend camping. I hope we've inspired you to get your uh get your gear out and get going. And um we'll see you. What happened to the crampon? Did we get any messages at all?
SPEAKER_02We got no messages, nobody wants crampons. Uh so uh yeah. They're not listening, Tim. They're not listening.
SPEAKER_03Nah, no. They are I mean the numbers say they are, but but yeah, they're not they're not messaging in for crampons with um unusual pictures. It's uh maybe maybe we asked too much. Maybe we asked too much what interaction provocative camera angles. Oh well, never mind, never mind.
SPEAKER_02Maybe uh maybe next week we'll uh we'll be able to throw a um a cramp on at someone, but uh well I mean I was just giving them away for for somebody that had a bit of a every other podcaster or youtuber are doing like hey sign up to this and buy ten tickets for so much, and you know how much we how much of that nonsense is going on at the moment? Bloody hell loads, it's just competition, competition, competition.
SPEAKER_03It's maybe how they make their money, but you know, yeah, yeah, because advertising doesn't work. It's um, but there you go, there you go. Right, enough. Let's clear off, and I'll see you the next time.
SPEAKER_02See you next time, have a great week, and uh everybody, you know what to do. Subscribe. All of the socials, messaging.
