In "Scaling Up: Taking Your Paid Digital Media to the Next Level," host Bill Gadless chats with emagineHealth's Director of Paid Digital Media, Phill Joe, to navigate the vast landscape of paid digital advertising in healthcare and biopharma 💊💻.
Need help convincing executives about increased digital ad spend? Phill details the importance of articulating ROI, customer lifetime value (LTV), and sharing case studies, benchmarks, and test results 💡💰.
We explore the world of advanced ad platforms including LinkedIn Ads, programmatic advertising, and native advertising platforms. They can be game-changers for healthcare and biopharma brands if used effectively🎯.
Programmatic advertising, with its real-time bidding and data-driven targeting, does have its challenges such as ad fraud and brand safety. Phill provides comprehensive insights into its ecosystem.
OTT or CTV advertising? They may be ideal for marketers on a budget, offering cost-effectiveness and precision.
Measurement and optimization are essential 📊. The hosts highlight key metrics and discuss brand lift, including ad recall, brand awareness, and perception. A/B testing and creativity are vital for efficient marketing strategies 🧪🎨.
Looking ahead, Gadless and Joe predict a future of paid digital advertising centered on personalization, hypersegmentation, and AI tools. Avoid common pitfalls, focus on compelling content, and leverage predictive analytics for a winning strategy 🚀🤖💡.
Join us for Part 1 of this insightful episode to turbocharge your paid digital media strategies!
Thank you for listening to OUTCOMES. Please find more healthcare and biopharma marketing thought leadership in the Insights section of our website and follow us on LinkedIn!
In "Scaling Up: Taking Your Paid Digital Media to the Next Level," host Bill Gadless chats with emagineHealth's Director of Paid Digital Media, Phill Joe, to navigate the vast landscape of paid digital advertising in healthcare and biopharma 💊💻.
Need help convincing executives about increased digital ad spend? Phill details the importance of articulating ROI, customer lifetime value (LTV), and sharing case studies, benchmarks, and test results 💡💰.
We explore the world of advanced ad platforms including LinkedIn Ads, programmatic advertising, and native advertising platforms. They can be game-changers for healthcare and biopharma brands if used effectively🎯.
Programmatic advertising, with its real-time bidding and data-driven targeting, does have its challenges such as ad fraud and brand safety. Phill provides comprehensive insights into its ecosystem.
OTT or CTV advertising? They may be ideal for marketers on a budget, offering cost-effectiveness and precision.
Measurement and optimization are essential 📊. The hosts highlight key metrics and discuss brand lift, including ad recall, brand awareness, and perception. A/B testing and creativity are vital for efficient marketing strategies 🧪🎨.
Looking ahead, Gadless and Joe predict a future of paid digital advertising centered on personalization, hypersegmentation, and AI tools. Avoid common pitfalls, focus on compelling content, and leverage predictive analytics for a winning strategy 🚀🤖💡.
Join us for Part 1 of this insightful episode to turbocharge your paid digital media strategies!
Thank you for listening to OUTCOMES. Please find more healthcare and biopharma marketing thought leadership in the Insights section of our website and follow us on LinkedIn!
Welcome to Outcomes, the Healthcare and Biopharma Marketing podcast, where marketing leaders discuss the most effective strategies for the health sectors coming from a digital first AI powered perspective. Hello everyone. Welcome to the second episode of the Outcomes. Podcast, uh, the name of today's episode is Scaling Up, taking Your Paid Digital Media to the Next Level. And I have here with me, Phil Joe, he is Imagine and Imagine Health's director of. Paid digital media. Uh, Phil has quite an extensive background and range of experience, uh, in paid digital media prior to being with us at Imagine Worked for big agencies like Publius and Omnicom and has provided. Variety of digital solutions to companies from Apple to Microsoft and Xbox and Facebook and in healthcare, Anthem Health, uh, even prior to, uh, to joining. Imagine where our focus is exclusively, uh, on the health sectors. And at Imagine here, we, we work with a wide range of sub-sectors within, within health. And so it, it's everything from healthcare to biopharma. Commercialized pharmaceutical companies, pre-commercial biotechs. And the point of all that is that I think the principles that we're gonna cover here today from a paid media perspective, Should generally apply to, to all, all of those sectors. Obviously there are nuances within each and certain regulatory considerations, um, to be aware of, but generally I think the principles really apply across the board. The, the topic that, that, that we're gonna cover here today is, is, is about scaling up when it comes to paid media, because what we see here is a pretty common scenario, um, which is companies who have, let's say, done a little more than dabbled in, in paid digital media. Um, but. Are looking for ways to go to the next level. So maybe it's a business that has done a little bit of Google search, maybe even some social paid social advertising on LinkedIn or Facebook or something. Uh, maybe they're, you know, typically budgets would be, Something under$10,000 a month, and that could be anywhere from a few hundred bucks a month to up to 10,000 a month. And that's a, that's an enormous group of companies that fit into that category. But going from that tier of advertising into the next level, uh, we find it to be challenging for a lot of companies because it's once you're, once you're up into that next tier of budget. That's where it's a lot more than experimentation at that point, and you better be proving the ROI on that to, um, to justify continuing to spend on it. And, you know, some of the reasons, biggest reasons that we see companies challenging, um, challenge to do it is obviously just general lack of expertise and knowledge internally on digital media. Uh, lack of resources, uh, and bandwidth to manage it. Not only. Not only managing the media side of it, but even the content and, and, and the things that need to support a, a strong paid media strategy. And then obviously lack of budget. You, you need to be able to justify that level of spending to CEOs and CFOs and, and budget is justified through data. And if you don't have strong data, you can't justify it. So we're gonna, we're gonna cover all of that today, including the last point, which is, you know, how to, how to justify higher budgets to your executives and prove to them the ROI on it so that you can continue, do, continue to do this. Um, So I'm gonna turn it over to Phil. Just to start with kind of a, a general question here, you know, for those in the healthcare and, and biopharma sectors, and Phil, you can, you can speak broadly or you can speak individually to any of the sub-sectors as we go. Sure. Um, but for any marketer who's, you know, already familiar with the, the basic digital advertising tools, What opportunities are there to scale up and and achieve more signi significant results? Yeah, so there's a ton of options available today for brands that are looking to expand, you know, from Google and social. I, I think, um, there's still a lot of opportunity within these two channels. And, and the way to think about channels, it's, it's Google being one through search and, and social, uh, most people have experience with, but there's also other channels, uh, like video. And video could be either YouTube or. Um, uh, audio, which is also, you know, what we're doing right now, um, through podcasts. But, but the way to think about the landscape is that there's. All different types of ads. And really your goal is to find out what types of ads or experiences your customers are resonating with. And those should try to, uh, you should leverage those, um, insight to actually determine where you move next. So, um, you know, for example, if you have an audience that loves a certain type of, of, of content and maybe. You know, it, it happens to be video. Um, looking at different platforms that, that enable, that is, is a really great opportunity. Um, so, you know, there, there, there's a lot out there. I i, I think that the, the first places to start is kind of what level are you comfortable with today and kind of taking the incremental steps, um, from there. So I think, you know, if you're doing Google ads, Potentially you're doing kind of text ads, um, and you're not ready to go to video. You can start using discovery ads within, within Google, and it's a more visual, um, a, a visual way of getting your, your messaging out there. It's, it's. Similar to display ads, but there's a lot of opportunity along that path to get to, um, to, to grow your, your, your, um, your reach and your marketing efforts, uh, within the existing platforms. Um, I, I, I think the biggest opportunity, uh, By far is video. Um, video provides a way to, um, personalize your brand. It provides a way to tell a narrative and a story under your own terms to provide the emotional components of, uh, interacting with the, uh, your, your consumers. And all of those are really, uh, big. Um, when you think about the change in the, the, uh, The, the dynamics of the landscape, which, which is essentially kind of encouraging people to scale up and, and, and, uh, you know, what we're seeing now. Is the market's becoming more fragmented? Um, it's becoming hyper fragmented and hyper segmented. And what that means is that your brand voice needs to be stronger. You, your unique proposition needs to be very clear from the initial step of engaging with that consumer. Um, so all of those components, um, kind of come into play, uh, early on when it comes to visually. Uh, engaging or maybe it's it, you know, through other channels, but, but I, I think it's important to, to, to, to, um, put a strong, unique proposition out there, um, uh, with these different channels that are available out to you. And, and I, I think that's, I think that's video. Yeah, and the video. With video, literally every year for the past 20 years, we've seen the growth in engagement and all of the data and statistics pointing to people ingesting video, more engaging with video more. And the great thing is today versus. Three years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, is video is so much easier to produce. Um, yeah. You know, so the justification, there's, yeah, there's so, there, there's so many tools available out there now. Um, Uh, obviously, you know, everyone's seeing kind of the, the new AI topics or, or, uh, products that, that are coming out. Um, but you know, today you could create simple animations that are really, really powerful. Um, and don't take that many, you know, minutes or iterations to do. Um, you could put something up in, in 10 minutes and then, you know, upload that ad to, to YouTube and run it. Um, Swapping out your colors and, and copy and, and the reason I guess I'm, I'm kind of harking on, on, on videos is because it, um, the performance is typically five, you know, I've seen three to five x you know, traditional, standard text ads. You're, you're getting that, that performance from these type of, uh, Add. So, you know, like some of the easier ones to, to, to tip your toe in. It's, it's, it's looking at YouTube, but also, you know, um, LinkedIn offers that if you, if you're, um, doing more legion and, and social, uh, marketing efforts and, and there's also, you know, uh, reels from, from Facebook and Instagram if you're going, uh, direct to consumers. Um, so there's a lot of video options now and, um, For as long as you mentioned that we've been talking about it for many years. Still today, so many brands are not leveraging it. Right. You know, there's a small percentage of brands that are actually using it and mm-hmm. And, and building on, on that capability. So it's still a, a huge opportunity. Yeah. Agreed. And to, to go back on another point you were making, which is about. Knowing your audiences, segmenting your audiences, being where, where they are with the, with the app on the appropriate channel and with the appropriate type of media. I mean this, I don't wanna turn this conversation into Marketing 1 0 1, but I kind of bring this into every conversation, whether, whether it's about seo, which we did our first episode. Today we're talking about paid social websites, which is take the time for any marketing strategy. And define your audience personas and their journeys to understand where they are, what type of media they prefer, uh, because that will vary. I mean, as much as we're, I think video is, is kind of all encompassing that all audiences, uh, are engaging with video. Sure. But there are definitely nuances within certain demographics and age ranges. Um, and so. You know, it's important to understand that before you embark on any of these, and I don't want to go too deep into that because we are here today to talk specifically about a lot of the paid tactics and channels and and so forth. So Phil, what methods would you recommend to justify increased budgets for digital advertising to executive leadership, CEOs, CFOs, particularly in this sector where we know that budgets can be tight. Yeah. Um, I think the two things that I recommend is getting a sense of your roi, um, or your, your return on ad spin, uh, where you're basically understanding for each dollar you put in, what is the expected dollar back and on average, um, say for example, Google Ads for all. Verticals in all companies kind of claims to have a two, do two, uh, two to one, which is a $2, uh, return for every dollar invested. Um, the other way to look at that, and you, you might have heard of CAC or the cost, uh, of. Customer acquisition or, or, uh, the, the acquisition costs for a client. Um, that best practice tends to be about three to one. Um, and the way to think about that is you're trying to get a sense of like, what is the returns for how much I'm going to, um, invest in media? And I think that is, is very key to have the conversation. Like wh when you're, when you're thinking about different, Agendas or different goals for your marketing. It might be to drive awareness, it might be to get lead forms, it might be to get exposure and some content. There's a a lot of different objectives you might have, but overall, at a high level, your goal is to. Drive value for your entire enterprise. And that means to understand how is that impacting your bottom line? And typically that's the return or that's the, the cost of the acquisition. Um, so one thing to, to, to kind of understand along with that is, The value, the lifetime value of your customers. And this is, I think, a ever ongoing conversation that I have with brands. It's really a struggle to kind of get that data into C R M and to understand all these different components of, you know, what people are doing once they click on an ad or once they click on a lead form, that that is quite difficult to do and it takes some time, but really, The hope is that you start making baby steps, um, and you use a pro, uh, a approach of maybe crawling before you walk and then walking before you run. You would like to get a sense of what type of revenue, um, or financial impact that those leads are or those cells are driving through your marketing channel. Um, I recommend just. You know, putting basic place over values, maybe it's, you know, 50 bucks, maybe it's 20 bucks. And what that allowed you to do is start to build the understanding and muscle memory of like, okay, this is the, the, the basic math of, you know, investing an output. Getting that return, you start to think about, and that starts to be your North star when you're, um, you know, thinking about, uh, opportunities. So, um, justification typically should be your numbers, um, and should be your data. Um, I do understand that you can leverage your data to, to look at, you know, things different ways. So I, I would say ultimately the goal should be to run tests. Um, Try to understand that the industry benchmarks, um, what are like, you know, what should my average costs, um, per acquisition be against? You know, like com. Likewise, competitors having that information can kind of put you on, you know, the starting point. Uh, it may not be accurate, but the goal is to, over time, get better at those numbers, right? And get better at understanding what the marketing efforts are doing. So I, I think, you know, understanding the value of your cu your clients or customers is, is really key. And understanding a little bit more about the lifecycle and that journey that that person's doing, and really that will inform the, the, the, the narrative or that, that would actually inform you and, you know, what's working and what's not working. Um, I do think that, you know, it's important for executive leaders to be patient and know that this is, you know, it's a process and that, you know, ultimately with every, um, Every quarter, every month, your program's gonna get better. Um, so really having, you know, north strides of like, what's my return on investment or the, the CAC that I'm trying to achieve. Um, and, and, and kind of moving in that direction, uh, to be honest, like your first couple of months of measuring might be off, but you know, you'll, you'll hone that skill over time. And, and we work with a lot of clients that. That, that we do that exact work. Um, so I, I think that's important. The other, the other piece, uh, is just demand efficiency. So that's kind of just the idea of like, how much revenue am I generating for the marketing spend and kind of time dividing that and time it by a hundred. But basically the goal is to see how much, uh, Efficiency and gains that you're achieving for that, that marketing dollar and, and basically that ratio should get higher over time, leading you to more efficiency. So, um, you know, you might start with a, a very low ratio of, of one, but over time it should get better. So, um, really using a couple of me metrics. You don't have to use all of them, but they're really good starting points. That you can kind of get a understanding of, you know, uh, what are the value, um, components that your marketing dollars are gonna drive for your bottom line. Yeah. And you know, the patience factor is, is a funny one because one of the appeals of paid versus say, SEO or other content marketing is that paid can be more immediate versus, you know, everybody goes into SEO knowing it's a marathon and it takes many months of accumulating content, whereas paid one of the value propositions is you can be up there tomorrow and, um, but obviously yeah, the results do take time and then Right. You know, on the, on the, the closed, the closed loop part is, is another big point. And we know on the agency side, we struggle with, we don't always have. Um, complete insight into our client CRMs and what happened after the conversion. And so for us it can be challenging, but at least on the client side, they really need to keep that loop closed so that they know. And, and it's like everything you said, working backwards from 'em. If you know your customer lifetime value, work backwards. How many proposals do you need? To close one of those, how many opportunities do you need to get a proposal? How many conversions do you need to get meetings and to proposals? Right? And so ultimately, what's one click worth off of one ad? And you know, if you, yeah, if you've got all those data points, and we know very few do, but like you said, do your best Start somewhere. Start to fill in some of those data points so that at least you have some idea. And I think you'd agree most. Or many marketers just have no idea about a lot of those things. Yeah. And, and I, and I totally understand that it's a, a scary process. Um, but I think, you know, for marketing teams, it's important to, to understand that data and understand. How they're impacting their bottom line, because o obviously that's, that's the whole goal, uh, in, in a lot of ways. Um, I, I do understand also that, that marketing, um, it's, it's could be hard to measure when you're thinking about upper funnel and awareness, right. Um, aspects. So, uh, the. There, there, there are multiple ways to, to, to look at, you know, what's, what's going to drive the lever, uh, internally, um, for your organization as far as what's gonna get the buy-in. Mm-hmm. But ultimately, I think starting from the basics of understanding kind of the revenue pieces is, is, yeah. Huge. Yeah. And in a way, as hard as all that is that we just described, it's the easiest in a way, compared to how do you justify. Investment in a brand awareness. How do you justify when you're Yeah. Maybe doing a paid campaign to, um, to attract investment, let's say if you're a biotech mm-hmm. And you're looking for more private funding and you're just trying to improve ave investor awareness or employee recruitment. So the, the, the customer and revenue piece is the easiest, and you think about how hard that one even is. Um, so yeah, moving on. Um, In terms of some of the, you know, we talked about so many companies have started, at least at some point, done a little bit of Google search advertising, maybe some social, but in terms of the more advanced paid platforms, um, which do you believe offer some of the most opportunities, uh, for marketers specifically in, in healthcare biopharm, and any examples you can provide. Sure. Um, so I think. The, the, the bigger opportunities is ultimately, uh, to rescale. And, and to do that, uh, I would leverage programmatic and there are multiple, uh, tools that. Are part of that decision. Um, but programmatic is essentially the, the way that we would, we would buy, um, the media, uh, allowing for real-time, um, bidding for, um, your, your ads. And it gives you insight into, um, a lot of different aspects of the, the buyer, uh, journey that you don't typically get with. Google ads or social? Um, I think that, can you interrupt though? Can you take a step back and give a very basic definition of what programmatic means? Is it, is it a methodology? Is it a platform? Sure. If you could just go very basic on that. Yeah, of course. Um, so programmatic is essentially a way to, to, to buy and optimize, um, digital inventory. So basically there are. A couple of pieces that are, are, are key. Um, as a, a brand or as a advertiser, you typically would work, um, uh, to bid, uh, within an ad exchange, uh, for inventory that's available, whether it's video or display, um, that would be available in a a, a supply side platform. So I think the easiest way to think about it is that. I, the advertiser would leverage a D S P, which is demand side platform. Mm-hmm. And I would go to an ad exchange and I would look for inventory, um, that is available from maybe women's health or maybe Hulu, or maybe it's even, you could buy. Facebook ads on, on programmatic as well. So there's this huge landscape of opportunity of buying inventory and essentially this process is called, um, You know, uh, programmatic, but it, it is, it's a, it's it, think of it as like a stock market. So like, there's buyers and sellers and the ATD Exchange is kind of like the New York stock chain. So you're buying, um, media and really what's informing that media is. Um, your data. So, um, within that world there's also, um, the term a, um, D M P, which is your data management platform, and this is where you might have a. Third party data, um, or second party data. Um, third party data is data that is provided by other vendors. Um, second party data is kind of data that has, um, some overlap with yours. Um, it might be endemic to the platform. Um, and then there the first party data that is sometimes available within a uh, D M P, but it typically is in a, um, Uh, a, a cd, uh, a cdm, which is a customer data management platform. So you have a lot of these platforms and I know there's a ton of acronyms, but basically the goal is to have your data platforms feed into your. P s p and make those algorithmic decisions. Um, so you can decide whether you're doing geotargeting, whether it's, uh, demographics, or whether it's on, um, certain ad types. Maybe you wanna be on inter, you know, on, on video ads versus display. Maybe there are certain segments and categories or interest levels that your interest that you would like to target. All of that data is. Able to, um, you can bid in real time within a programmatic, um, exchange and okay, that's really the value of. Uh, you, you leveraging these platforms is, it's almost like the futuristic version of, uh, you know, doing basic keyword optimization. It is kind of the next level of that. And basically because there's so much segmentation in the market, there's so many different platforms. There's thousands of platforms and thousands of different formats in the platform, you can engage with customers. That's where programmatic has its value in reaching scale. Through one centralized, uh, portion or a one centralized interface. So that's, that's kind of what programmatic does for you. Big. So, so when I've always thought of programmatic, um, till we started investigating it and getting into it further, I just immediately associate it with big budgets, big advertisers. Is it, is that necessarily true and. You know, could you even give, what should someone's minimum total paid media spend be to consider doing? Sure. Yeah. So I, I think that is not, uh, for just big companies, but there, there is a minimum. I would, I would say like ideally you'd like to have about $10,000 a month to actually get the return and start actually ex. Getting the value from programmatics. So that level of 10,000 a month typically means that you are, um, that you, that you have enough media to cover the fees, and we can go through the fee structure, but also to cover the, um, to, to cover the, the, the reach and the scale that's available to you. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, there, there are brands that does allow for smaller, uh, Smaller investment levels, but the, the best way to think about programmatic is that it's typically an awareness play and Okay. You know, you're trying to get your message out. So, um, you know, programmatics huge for video. Yeah. Uh, C T V or O T T, um, And I can go through, I know I'm kind of putting out definitions I could kind of go with No, I wanna, there's a lot of acronym again. So what I'd ask you to do right there, I mean those are two big ones. And so can you define O T T and CTV both. What do they actually stand for? But, but what do those mean? Yeah. So, um, I, I think the best way to think about like what those are is that they're, they're all video, but think about linear tv. So linear is, you know, I had a cable set up. I basically, uh, or I have a, a satellite in a. You know, get my cable or my local television from that. Then there's, along with linear tv, there's advanced tv. Advanced TV is kind of the bucket where all of this lives in. So you have O T T and C T V, uh, within Advanced TV and O T T is basically, uh, it stands for over the over the top. It's essentially the. Naming convention that the industry gave for people who are cord cutters, so streaming people who are streaming now, which now is like most of the country. So most of the, you know, uh, video consumption is through o t T, um mm-hmm. So that's over the top. And a segment of over the top is C T V. And this is essentially, Um, what's considered, uh, the devices, so over the top examples of that is like H B O, peacock, Hulu, paramount Sling. These are all of the, uh, video content that doesn't really. Care how you get it. It's just through the internet and that's how we define o t t. But then there's connected tv, um, which is more so the way that you get it. Um, so it could be through a Chromecast or Roku or you know, your Amazon fire. So, um, there's multiple ways to get at to, to get at tv. So, When you think about programmatic and this being such a big part of it, usually the, the, the catalyst for brands getting into, into programmatic is, is asking yourself, are you ready to go to the bigger screens? Are you ready to go to big tv? Um, where you can start reaching. Um, customers at scale and beat and, and, and essentially, uh, building that, that, um, relationship and that, that brand recognition. Um, I, I would say, you know, before, before programmatic, um, think about. Once, you know, once you have a campaign and you're, you know, maybe nationwide, do you have the infrastructure and the ability to pull people down the funnel to convert? Sure. Do you have the, um, you know, the, the sales rep to handle that? Do you have the. The call centers to, to deal with that volume. So I think it's really important to have a lot of the basics in place before you go to programmatic. But for those clients who have all of this in place and they're ready for the next stage, I think, you know, think in basic terms, I'm ready to be on tv, but I want to smart target these and my customers very smartly. And that's what, um, it allows you to do. And it allows us that hyper. Uh, uh, targeting and ability to segment and ability to kind of spice and split the data in a way that we can get very, very targeted there. And that little piece of that, that targeting piece is what's really considered addressable tv. So some, some of of you might have heard of that term being used interchangeably with ot, O T T and ctv. Yep. But it's really the idea that you can. Build unique segments. So both of you could be watch, you know, you could have two people watching Seinfeld at seven o'clock, but those two individuals will get two different ads. Yeah. Because they are, you know, in two different buckets. But they might like fit into. The, the crowd that watches, uh, you know, old comedies or something. So yeah, I think it's important to, to, to know that there's all types of ways that you can segment and it's kind of based off of your strategy. Um, or, or, or the, the audience you wanna reach. So, a couple of questions on the TV stuff. Uh, one is I'm a cord cutters. I use YouTube TV has become my primary streaming. Mm-hmm. Um, I can assume that the commercials that I'm being shown on that are targeted toward me, most likely. Right. I'm sure some are doing a little bit more on a mass, you know, basis, but yeah, they know. They know who I am and data about me. Right. And commercial I'm seeing are for me and. Yeah. And, and we're gonna say something that might sound contradictory to what I just said about like, skill and massive tv, but that is the beauty, the, the, the programmatic capabilities allow us to do hyper targeting. So you can spend $10,000 for the month and reach people on, like you on, uh, YouTube, tv and, um, Uh, have some interactive capability to that ad. You might actually want them to, you know, go deeper down the funnel and submit a lead form. So there's diff different features that are now available. Um, you know, for example, on Roku, there's ads that allow you to click on different products and buy and shop and integrate with Amazon Fire. There's so many different. Um, capabilities now through programmatic that allows you to interact with your customers. Um, you know, in different ways. And this is probably due to fragmentation, but it's also due to the consumer journey looking a lot different now. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's, it. It's, it's very difficult to know what the typical path that a person takes. You know, for example, most of, uh, I would say over 80 or so percent of of Google searches are unique every day, and I think that's just an illustration that user behavior changes. So often and so, and is so unique to people that there is no consensus on where everyone lives or where everyone kind of consumes their content anymore. Um, so it's, it's a fragment mark fragmenting market that allows, uh, that programmatic enables you to kind of tame it to some degree. Yeah, and I mean, it sounds like. With, with these newer channels and programmatic and C T B and O T T, that that this is applicable for this intermediate advertiser that we're talking about here today, right? I mean, you don't need multimillion dollar media budgets to be on TV basically. Right. Yeah. And that's the, that's the beauty that, you know, to, to, to get the, the benefit of that. You don't have to go through a traditional upfront where you have to bid on, you know, uh, getting Thursday or T G I Friday, if you remember those, uh, uh, you know, getting advertisement on these prime spots. There are some, some. Some, some things like Super Bowl advertisements where people are like specifically bidding on that bucket of content. But for most of your, you know, for, for most businesses, um, you don't need to do that. Uh, I would say no business really needs to kind of be that hyper focused on national targeting anymore. Um, Because you, you know, people are everywhere. People consuming most of their, their content through, through, um, you know, mobile devices now. And, uh, you can now watch premium content from Hulu on your mobile device. So I think when we think about like. The challenges here is, is really that measurement piece, and that's where, you know, the platforms kind of help to give you the data to understand kind of the different user, um, behaviors and those different touchpoints within programmatic, but it's also important to. Um, know that like, there, there's other pieces of, of data that you want to start leveraging into these, these campaigns, but, um, yeah, I totally agree that companies can start doing this today. There's, there's no, um, there's no barrier, uh, except maybe kind of understanding the landscape a little bit more and having the budget. But once you are, once you have those two pieces, I think it, there's a ton of opportunity to kind of test and learn and really build that brand narrative. Um, you know, when you're, when you're ready to go a little bit more mid-funnel and you're ready to kind of develop relationships and brand recognition is an amazing channel to do that. Yeah. And with this, you know, hyper targeting capability that, that we have today, I think it is appealing to healthcare and pharma and device marketers because, you know, they, for the most part, They don't wanna spend their marketing budget on, on mass media. It's very mm-hmm. Demographic specific, whether it's, you know, you mentioned women's health, or we have clients who are in the medical device space for prostate conditions. And if you can, you can hone in on your very specific demographic. Again, it opens up TV and video things that have historically been considered very expensive, very complex, um, from producing the actual commercial, let alone buying the media for it.