Episode 3, Part 1: Digital-First, AI-Powered Approach to Visual Storytelling in Healthcare & Pharma

In this episode 🎙️ "A Digital-first, AI-powered Approach to Visual Storytelling in Healthcare and Pharma," host Bill Gadless sits down with Chris Lucock for an insightful discussion on the transformative landscape of digital design in healthcare and pharma.

Their conversation begins with an exploration of the journey from traditional print to digital design 🎨, highlighting the challenges and evolution in this space over the past decade and a half. They then delve into the emergent insights as healthcare and pharma industries increasingly adopt a digital-first, data-informed approach 📊.

They discuss the critical role of data - both quantitative and qualitative - in driving design decisions, from creating new brands to crafting effective websites. Branding advice in the digital era 🌐 is also on the table, shedding light on the nuances of managing a brand in this fast-paced, digital-centric age.

A noteworthy segment of the episode focuses on the importance of testing in design. They delve into the experience of testing design elements through various methods, underlining the significance of data-backed testing in ensuring the effectiveness of designs ✅.

AI and its application in the creative field becomes a hot topic in their discussion. They share insights on how AI is being leveraged in creative work, shedding light on the possibilities and innovation it brings 🤖.

To wrap up, the future of AI in brand innovation takes the spotlight. While predicting the future is challenging given the rapid advancement of AI, they explore potential pathways AI could continue fostering brand development and innovation 🚀.

🎧 Audio Podcast Links:
Spotify: 
https://tinyurl.com/4cz39rpw

Apple Podcasts: 
https://tinyurl.com/ycy3vfdf

Website: 
https://www.emaginehealth.com/

LinkedIn: 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/emagineusa/

Insights:
https://www.emaginehealth.com/blog/

Thank you for listening to OUTCOMES. Please find more healthcare and biopharma marketing thought leadership in the Insights section of our website and follow us on LinkedIn!

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to Outcomes, the healthcare and biopharma marketing podcast, where marketing leaders discuss the most effective strategies for the health sectors. Coming from a digital first AI powered perspective. Hello everyone. And welcome to episode three of outcomes. Uh, today I have here with me, Chris Lukak, Imagine and Imagine Health executive creative director. The title of today's episode is a digital first AI powered approach. to visual storytelling in healthcare and pharma. That's a mouthful. Um, Chris has been here for 15 plus years at Imagine, and we're going to talk, we're going to talk about a lot of things today, but one of the things we're going to talk about is just what that... Journey has looked like over that period of time, uh, from his perspective, as, as the person who has led all of our design efforts and teams and, uh, and technology, everything in, in, in the design world for us over that period. And obviously there's been a lot of develops developments, innovation and, and just trends and changes. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk all about that today. Um, All the way up to things happening currently in, in AI and other technology and a data driven approach to design and all that good stuff. So, um, I'll give my quick overview of, of what I've seen over that period of time and, um, And it's been a lot, like I said, I think we've seen a, my biggest observation has been just a gradual constant shift, uh, toward a more patient centric approach to branding and, you know, that might not sound that novel to companies who have always been. Patient centered, but when it's, when you're talking about companies who might be pre commercial, whether that's a biotech or device company or diagnostics who are, whether they're in R and D mode or, or. even preclinical, um, still focusing more of their branding efforts on the patient than they used to. And I think that's a good thing. And I think I'd like to think we've had some influence on that with our own clients, uh, used to be those types of companies used to just focus so much on their science and. Um, you know, their proprietary technologies or their, their people, which are all still very important, but it's almost as though for a while there, they lost sight of the fact that this, all this stuff is about the patient at the end of the day. And even if you're not speaking directly to patients at certain stages of your company, It's still what it's all about and that matters to investors and that matters to prospective employees and it matters to partners and it matters to HCPs who might not be using your product for five or 10 or 15 years, uh, but who you want to be aware of you. So, you know, that's been, I think the most salient shift that I've seen over this period, um, a gradual trend toward again, another positive thing, more transparency. and authenticity. Uh, in this industry, you want to give as much information as possible about that means about your company, about your products, about your science, about everything. People need to trust you. And generally a lot of people don't trust companies. in this industry. Um, social responsibility, people, people want to know through your brand, through your content, that you're doing the right thing. And you know, that really came to light, I think more than anything else with the whole, uh, Purdue Pharma situation and the opioid epidemic. But in light of that and other. You know, just other companies who might not be the most ethical on earth. Uh, the public is, is much more, much more interested in, in you proving yourself that you are doing the right thing. And there was, there was a while there during peak pandemic where. The public's trust was at a record high just because I think, you know, so many people were dependent on how the biopharma industry was hopefully going to come along and save the world, especially when we were all. Trapped in our homes. Um, but that's faded a lot. That, that trust factor that the industry was riding a high on for a while was relatively short lived and, uh, and things are back to normal now. So companies must work extra hard to prove themselves and that they're a trustworthy organization. Uh, there's 5, 10, 15 years ago on general wellness and prevention. And again, that's a great thing. Uh, things are known. A lot of things are known that weren't known 10 years ago about how we can live and adjust our lifestyles that will prevent us from getting serious conditions. Um, big movement obviously toward diversity and inclusion. Uh, again, great thing. And that means within the organizations themselves from a hiring and a people perspective, but their patient populations as well. Um, so that includes from everything from clinical trial participation to actual care. And again, just a general, I'd say general theme of trust. Everybody just needs to know that your product is what you say it is. It's going to do what you say it does and that you're an organization making something that people can feel comfortable putting in their body or taking care of their body. So those are my quick observations that I've seen over this period because it's been a long time. We're talking this conversation that Chris and I are going to get into again is looking at like his. trajectory here over the past decade and a half in doing this. Um, and so I just kind of wanted to share my, my observations during that time. So Chris, I want to take a step back and let's talk about your own journey here. We'll get into observations and certainly share anything you want through the whole conversation, but you had a background. In more traditional print and design. I know you worked at a newspaper, you worked at some manufacturers and you moved to imagine about 15 years ago. And that was a shift for you, uh, moving over to, over to predominantly digital design. And we've seen. A lot of designers and maybe even you at the beginning, um, found it really challenging to adapt, uh, from print to digital. So what I'd like for you to do is, you know, just share anything about your journey, your insights. Um, on the digital first design landscape and from way back then through, you know, what you've seen in terms of an evolution over that period. And it was indeed way back then. Um, it was, it was interesting. Um, I, in actual fact, I would say that my, the first few years that imagine the transition actually wasn't that big of a shift. It was. A couple of years after where we really sort of recognize that, you know, uh, turning and it's like, okay, this job is now different, especially from the one that you had. Like Bill was saying, I came from, uh, a fairly traditional, uh, print and marketing background. Um, all of the usual print stuff, um, and beyond that, you know, sort of like outdoor display work and so forth. We did a lot of trade show exhibits. Um, But all of those sort of fundamental marketing materials that you associate with a period back then, sort of, let's call it pre digital. Um, but interestingly, when I actually moved over to Imagine, um, initially the shift wasn't that great because, primarily because the tool set I was using was very similar. Um, the way that we used to design, uh, back in the day, um, was primarily Photoshop. Photoshop was the tool, um, it's kind of weird now when I look back in it, that that was the primary tool, but indeed it was the, like, it was the tool that we used for pretty much everything in design. Um, recognizing that back then, You know, even our, it's a little strange when you go back to the way back machine and you look at some of the old designs that we used to do, um, I was always going to say, like, you know, where I would almost be embarrassed. But for the time they were fine. I mean, they were, I mean, we went through the same thing that we go through now, you know, when we're presenting designs and the client was, Wow, I love that. Um, primarily because we were just creating beautiful things. Um, all of the, all of the work that we do now prior to actually designing, we didn't, let's be honest, we didn't do any of that back then. We, The first engagement with the client, which is, which is absolutely not what we do right now, which is the first engagement was creative. That's all the client wanted to talk about. Now we've got entire strategy and UX sessions that go on like for months prior to designers even getting in through the door. Um, but back then it was. Right out of the gate, all about design, show us stuff that you love. And then we would create, you know, this wonderful flat image for them. Um, and that was it. And, and, you know, once again, in all honesty, clients were easily wowed. Um, you know, big, beautiful picture and the format for a lot of our designs was very, very similar. Um, you know, it was your sort of. Standard hero image, menu on top, bop, bop, bop, three boxes, a little something under that. And then you get into the interiors and they don't look identical. So, we used to just crank stuff out because essentially... It was change the look and the feel. I mean, give it that branded appearance. I mean, obviously include colors and fonts, um, and imagery that's appropriate. Um, but then we jump into doing the rest of the site and it was this pretty standard left hand navigation, uh, content, content, content. Not really a whole lot of effort, uh, going into the actual design. There's still the development of it. I mean, that was still, you know, that was still lift. Um, but from a design perspective, it was very straightforward. Um, a lot of what we did from a formatting perspective looked very similar. Boy, have those days changed. Um, so I would say where the. The rubber started to hit the road, I think, from a digital perspective, and we were trying to trying to determine when we did our first mobile site. But that was when things started to change. Um, and I'm talking specifically from a design perspective, because What would happen? I mean, think about it for, for as long as I've been designing, there was a, let's call it a canvas, right? It doesn't matter what it is. Could have been a billboard. It could have been a business card. It could have been eight and a half, 11 sheet. Um, but there was always a fixed canvas that I was designing too. I didn't have to be worrying about what if it falls off the edge of the paper? There is no edge of the paper. Everything is contained within that fixed canvas size. Now, all of a sudden, Just literally overnight, this mobile revolution happened. So we're, I'm thinking roundabout for us right about like 2010, something like that. That's probably about the time we started doing responsive design. And I think we probably were doing some mobile specific redirect sites. I think we did. Uh, I think that's how we, like, we've had a lot of M sites at that point. Um, and I think we went backwards and, I mean, we were learning like, like everybody else. So I think there were certain sites that we developed. Um, because we were in, you know, like what's best practice. I don't know. The world's changing very quickly. So let's, we designed some sites that were mobile specific. So basically you went from a desktop presentation to a mobile, not tablet, not anything else, just mobile device. Uh, so that phone, that smartphone that you had was developed and that was relatively easy, I guess. But I mean, you were now designing, essentially I was doing two designs. I was doing the desktop version. And then I was doing a mobile version, right? So there's that, but even then, you know, it was from a design perspective, there were curve balls in there that you weren't used to, I mean, you just weren't used to it. I mean, I go back to the, you know, designers. You know, everything pre web and it's, you know, Michelangelo. Yeah, that's, Mona Lisa looks great. Now, how about doing it on this format? How about this format, Mike? And it's just like, Hey, hey, time out. That's the size of the picture. But it's like, no, we need it in a whole bunch of different ways. And it's, so once again, I think cognitively when you're designing, it's not sufficient to just look at that canvas like you've always done. So for me, I think that was the learning curve. That was where. I began to realize that, you know, the digital world and everything. So that was just the beginning. But like I said, designing in a whole bunch of different formats and shapes and sizes and things were changing, um, that was definitely one of the biggest transitions I think that I've made, um, from a design perspective. And I think during that too, I mean, we saw, we saw it go from us as the, let's say digital designers, which was largely websites. I mean, digital design, uh, expands a lot to a lot of other things than just websites, but that was so much of the work that we were doing. And, you know, there was a period where we were the ones designing off of other things. Um. And, and it shifted at a certain point. It wasn't overnight. It was a gradual thing, but the things we were designing digital first. Became what all of the other sorts of materials, whether that's collateral or trade show booths or whatever, um, it, it truly did gradually become digital first and, and leading with things like your website. Yeah. And it's funny because that's another thing, you know, it's funny as we're having this conversation, those kind of thoughts are coming back to me where we would literally be presented, right? So we have. You know, the annual, the annual report. That was the big deal. Right. So it was like, here's our annual report, big fat printed piece of material. Um, use that as the driver for your design. Right. So that's, we haven't seen, we haven't seen that in decades. Um, but like, and I'd forgotten that the fact is, yeah, we were, uh, You know, we, we were not the most important medium that was being developed at the time. It was still the standard agency and all the things that they were doing. And they were up here and we were this sort of web design agency that was coming in and, you know, we were getting the crumbs off the table and. You know, it's like, Oh, these, these are the colors. These are the fonts. These are the images. This is everything. You now do your web thing. Um, but yeah, we would definitely, we were second in the door, if not third. Um, and then slowly over time. Like you were saying, all of a sudden now, the medium of the web just became of primary importance, the number one marketing tool. And so, as a result of that, from an agency perspective now, a lot of times we were first in the door, right? So it was like, Bill, imagine... We have this project. Uh, we recognize the value now of, you know, the web, the digital environment, and we are now. So not only were we, this is the interesting part I saw from a design perspective, not only now, where we being recognized as the digital agency and the importance of that as an entity, but as a result of that, as a result of being first in the door, then they were, then we started to get projects like. Can you do the entirety of our rebrand? Right. It's that important. Like you guys are the first in the door. We're thinking of changing the name of the company. We need a new logo. We, and so it just made all the sense in the world then for us to be essentially, even though we were their digital agency of choice, yeah. We ultimately became their agency of choice. And just the, the confidence that they had in us to take the whole ball of wax makes all the sense in the world, right? So we would develop the logo and the entire brand, the messaging, um, and then that would transition seamlessly into the digital environment, which is, you know, the thing that we were known for, which was the website. Um, but yeah, the projects definitely began to expand because. Just recognizing the importance of digital first, and I think that's the genesis of us using the term digital first, which I still think we were the first to be digital first and use the term. And now everyone's digital first, but, um, But really the, the, the genesis of the term for us was that was twofold really in that the digital components became the first and biggest thing that our clients were caring about. We would be doing broader branding engagements, but the thing that the client was focused on where this new brand was going to make its biggest and first splash was the website. So, so the digital part of the brand became the first and most important thing, but also the things that we were doing as the web designers, To to develop brands included certain types of data that just hadn't been used by more traditional branding firms. And that was the other reason that we're, you know, we're a data driven digital firm, and that's a big part of what digital first really means. It doesn't just mean it's the biggest and most important thing. It means that there's a lot of data derived from digital tactics that get used. In doing digital design. And again, a lot of clients just hadn't seen that over the years with more traditional branding engagements. Um, so let's shift a little bit, Chris, and let's talk a little bit more specifically about our industry. Like I did in my, in my, um, opening monologue. But, you know, what are some of your observations over this period that you've seen, you know, in terms of, and even if some of it's reiterating what some of mine that I said, but, uh, you know, within healthcare and pharma as they've adopted this, you know, more digital first data informed approach. Yeah. I think, you know, what's interesting is I mean, they're big industries, right? And we've got some really big clients. And I think that one of the things that we've done, which was appropriate, which is we are set, we're following their lead. So as they recognize that, you know, a patient let's call it patient centric role is of incredible value. Then that just transitioned into the things that we were doing because It is interesting if you look historically at And it would be more apparent, I would say, in terms of the content of the website, certainly the visual aspects of it. You'd recognize it too. But I think if you read through, if you literally read through some of our clients that we've had over the years, and you'll see this transition into a more patient centric approach, you'll find that we, we pretty much just jumped on board. It just made all the sense in the world. And we've actually You We've had clients for like, we've had repeat clients, you know, somewhere in like 10, literally over the 15 years where we have, you know, Been the small agency of choice that they had that, you know, there was a little bit of hesitation. I think go with imagine Um, but once again build confidence with them and you'll see that from the initial designs and the implementation There are certain clients that we've had that were very much about the point of the website is to promote us This, isn't that what you do? That's marketing. It's about us. It's about, you know, we, we, we do this, we do that, we do that. And oh, by the way, and there's literally a complete shift, which is, that's how you need to market, right? Which is so just as healthcare and pharma related industries, you know, their goal is deliver, improve patient outcomes. And we're doing a similar thing, but we're developing digital assets. Yeah. to show the exact same story. And so we're moving away from creating sites. We literally, you know, take orders. This is, this is what we need on our site. This is all about us. Replicate that thing that we've done over there, but put it in this medium. And so, once again, we noticed there was, uh, I think not so subtle change. I mean, we literally went back to a particular client Who's website we had developed maybe once or even twice and said, this time round, this is the shift in the industry and you're going to have to turn this boat, literally do a 180 and start focusing all of your content and all of your efforts. On your patients on caregivers to some degree like hcps insurance providers, whatever but Primarily have the focus be on the people that are using the site and by virtue of that We literally will guarantee Like the ROI on engagement will take off because it just, you just realize that the way we had been designing sites with, we still obviously care about our customers. I mean, let's, let's not go that far. But the point is, when we engage with a client now, We're very upfront about the fact that if you really want this to work, you need to start putting your customers, whether it's the patient, the caregiver, whatever you need to put them first. And then you'll find that there's tremendous traction and engagement. Um, yeah, I mean, as a result, when we do that and one, I think Bill, you mentioned this towards the beginning of the podcast, um, patient empowerment, engagement, it's huge. There's literally the people, and this is, this is worthwhile noting, I think, I think the people that are now using websites, let's just say websites for the time being, but you know, digital assets, they have changed. It's not the same user as it was back then. People have become incredibly comfortable with the digital environment. All right. So to the degree that there's, I mean, let's take, for instance, a typical scenario, a doctor visit, right? 10 years ago, go to the doctor, whatever he says is, that's what you're going with. There's no like, meh, you know, I did a little bit of digging. No you didn't. We're, this is it. I am the doctor. I am the voice of reason and truth, and you will do pretty much exactly what I say. whole different scenario. Now, I don't, it'd be interesting to get a doctor's perspective on that, which is patients are coming in and they are incredibly well informed. And we see, I'll tell you just one very specific avenue of that sort of patient group right now, which we have dealt a lot with over the years are cancer patients. Just the amount of time and effort Whether it's the patient or the caregiver that they are allowing themselves to get fully immersed in the disease and the treatments and they're literally coming to the doctor now. Once again, whether they're right or wrong, they're coming and they're much more informed than they used to be. And the conversations between doctors and patients right now, it's, it's not, it's not a one way street. It is a two way street. And patients are asking incredibly detailed questions, like, why is this not, you know, why, what is so, you know, just some of it, like why there's a company out there it's called Ivy brain tumor. Um, I'm in Arkansas getting treated like now I read about these people. Should I go there? It looks like they're, you know, on the cutting edge of developing the thing, you know, a response to the situation that I have. And I just think from a doctor's perspective, number one, I would find it sort of alarming like, wow, people are coming in and yeah, I, I honestly feel, and that's the way, like I said, so that's the way the industry is going and that's, we're following the industry. Um, and providing literally patients with that, whether it's a website, we're creating, you know, online communities where people are sharing and caring. Um, even to more, you know, complicated and intricate things, you know, wearables, health apps, um, all of these things, the health industry is so broad and has developed so rapidly. Um, yeah. And we're keeping pace and providing those things that they, you know, that users need essentially. Yeah. It's the, it's the era of patient activation. It's, you know, people's healthcare is. In their own hands, largely, um, and it's not because doctors don't care because it's because there's more information available to patients. It's because doctors are too busy. It's because insurance companies and the entire system honestly don't allow it, allow a person to just put trust in the system. You have to take things into your own hands, largely. Um, And it's, it's a good thing. It's, it might not be for your elderly mom or grandmom that, that it can't do it as well and maybe doesn't have, uh, caregivers to do it for them. But when, when you've got the information at your fingertips and you're fairly tech savvy. Um, it's, it's a great thing and we're, we're a part of, of delivering that experience and just to put in perspective, because I think one of the things that's, that's so interesting about the term patient centricity in marketing, which is largely a misnomer because I think everybody wants to do it. Everybody in health care and pharma. Wants to be patient centric, lots think they're doing it. And I'm going to say like 5% are probably doing it and, and, and, but you can say, well, why wouldn't you be? I mean, that's so obvious. What is this industry for, if not for the patient? And once you get into it, it's because there are a lot of other audiences and they're very important. When it comes to a biopharma, they need money. They need investors. So you can't really be all about the patient if you're going to run out of funding and you're nowhere near having your drug. Um, you need to constantly be hiring and recruiting for top talent or you'll have no company. You need collaborations and partnerships. Um, over on the healthcare side, there's hospitals that are recruiting for residencies. Um, and so there, there's, there's a lot of audiences and it's not, it's not only the patient. So it really requires a commitment. And a lot of sacrifice and probably a lot of internal battles politically to, to, and, and not just from a website perspective, but almost any sort of presence you're going to have, whether again, that's building a trade show booth. or other collateral or allocating advertising budgets. And how much of it is for the patient versus all those other audiences. So it's not that easy, even though it really seems as though it would be, uh, would be obvious. And again, just to reiterate, like I said, in my, in my monologue, patient centricity isn't always just about speaking directly to the patient. But again, for some of those pre commercial R and D stage companies, it means more making sure that the patient. focus is coming through even to those other audiences like investors, partners, partners, HCPs, reminding them that the patient is really your focus and why you're doing anything. Um, so Chris, let's talk about, um, Data driven design and how your team leverages data. And I mean that, um, on both a quantitative and a qualitative basis to guide design directions. And, and again, this ranges from everything from real broad, high level brand strategy. Uh, down to something as specific as a website, I think. And you just touched on it briefly. Um, and so the last question that you'd ask, which is this idea of, you know, when you move into a digital era, one of the huge benefits, I think, is the just the amount of data, qualitative or quantitative, you know, Um, that is available at your fingertips. So you're making some very accurate calls when we're and I'll look at it from specifically from a design perspective, but in large part pre digital era, um, we were making a lot of. Arguably very subjective design calls, right? Which is, I've been a designer for the past 15 years, uh, in my humble opinion, this is what we should do. You know, typical sort of creative track, right? Which is you get on your high horse and you charge through and everyone's like, well, he said it, I guess it's true. Black turtlenecks. Right. Just, it's just now it's just black t shirts. Um, so yeah, so it's like, what, but I mean, that was very much right. You know, and in large part, I mean, you, you, there's a certain gravitas because you've been there and you've done that, so there's something behind that and you still utilize that experience. However, what we've now got going for us, and which is this really sort of rocks our boat over here, is we're making a lot of design decisions now, I say design UX, I'm going to combine those two phrases for the moment, uh, based on data. Right. So let's say we have, let's say we're starting out a very fairly typical project. Uh, let's say it's a website project. Um, and the first, one of the first steps anyway that we take from a design perspective is we start to wireframe outta site, right? So for those that are unfamiliar, wireframe is basically, um, a framework for. The content flow on a page. So let's say we start off with the homepage. Um, and what we're basically suggesting is, right, this is not the design, but this is how we want your content to flow. We would suggest that you start out with your hero message right here, that you go into this and there's, you know, we basically, those decisions that we're making are data driven, right? And. I don't want to jump the gun to what we're going to be talking about at the end in terms of AI, but even more so now. Um, essentially we're not making decisions because we feel You know, that might be a part of it, but we're making decisions because we're actually now working with data, right? So we can actually take even before we start designing in any capacity whatsoever, there's a whole bunch of website analytics that are out there. What is currently not subjective? What do you think? Because quite honestly, if you ask someone, um, Where do you think people are going? And if they just have a sort of a gut reaction, Oh, they're landing on the homepage and they're spending forever on the homepage and consuming all of that information. Well, let's actually look at the data and find out what they're doing, where are they going? Not only were they spending time, but were they bailing on your site? Right? So we have that data, right? So it's like, believe it or not, all of that effort and concern you had over this content on your site, No one's going there. It's just not, it's not drawing flies. So not to say that you don't need it, but certainly in terms of his sort of homepage worthy in terms of this is something that people need to know about right away. So we're making some very accurate and informed decisions in terms of content on the page. Beyond that, And this is really where to me, it's like super interesting, which is sort of like more qualitative data, right? So we will spend a good chunk of time doing things like, you know, user and stakeholder interviews. These to me, this to me is as much as I feel that, you know, sort of like website analytics are very important. Um, the real, the real investment of time and effort for me from a design perspective, because I get a lot more out of it is the kind of data that comes back from actually talking to people. that are your current customers that are prospective customers and getting a really deep dive specifically into You know, what are their needs? What are their preferences? Very importantly, what are the pain points that they're now experiencing? Um, that then becomes the driver specifically for the content that we're, and once again, we're just talking content at this point. We're not even talking about design design is the next overlay on top of that. But in all honesty, if you were designing without that information at your fingertips, you're basically doing what we did when we started, when I started at imagine, which is you're painting a pretty picture. And you might be able to get over the first couple of hurdles by doing that and ever and wowing everybody with this beautiful thing, but ultimately it will fail because it just doesn't have that underpinning. It doesn't have a firm foundation. It will not stand the test of time. And once again, it's the old phrase, lipstick on a pig. You're just presenting a pretty picture and there's nothing behind them. And that's not why people are no longer coming. People are not coming to a hospital website, to a pharma website to be entertained. Right? It's not like, Oh, wow, this is beautiful. It's great. Tell me one person that's coming outside of maybe the marketing director of that company. But besides that, no one is actually arriving there with, Hey, please wow me and entertain me and make it look all beautiful. No. It needs to be functional, it, the content needs to be up to date and accurate, and as a designer, one of the things that I have to do now is present that in a way that is very usable. I, I'm, I'm less concerned to be honest, I'm less concerned about making it beautiful. We try to make it attractive, right? That's definitely, it's part of your goal. It's inherently in your DNA as a designer. But more importantly, it needs to be usable. Um, and just make sure that people can get to the information that they're looking for in as quick a period of time. There used to be, there used to be a data point that we'd use back in the day, which is what's, what's the, what's the measure of a successful homepage, the amount of time people spend on there. Longer time they spend on there, the better the web, that was an actual data point that we used, right, which is like, the website, the homepage could have been awful, people might have been going all over the place because they can't find anything, but we're like, no, they spent a long time on there. We were entertaining them. They were, you know, like ESPN didn't exist. Like they were spending all this time on this hospital homepage. Um, now it's complete inverse, which is, If you're designing a well designed homepage from a UX perspective, it's people are able to find immediately what they're looking for, and then, so it's less time on the homepage, definitely more time on the journey where they're going. But yeah, they should be able to land on the homepage. We recognize who's using the site, who the audience is. What are their pain points? This is a pain point. Then put it up front. Don't make them search for it. Don't make them dig all the way down there. Put that right up front. Clients had a hard time with us doing that, you know, back, back in the day. It was like, no, it's about us. They need, no, it's not. It's about them. It's about the people that are coming to your site. What are their struggles? Place that up front and center and allow them to get to the stuff. Then your site's going to be a lot more effective. Yeah. So data has just become, it's, it's, as I was saying before, like in terms of like our tool set, uh, where Photoshop was it back in the day, the data that we get, that is an actual component that is in our tool belt and we find it honestly difficult to design a site right now if we don't have that underpinning. Because we understand that we're guessing here and we'd prefer not to, we'd prefer to actually know what it is that people need, what's that patient journey look like? And let's now get that and develop the appropriate site. With all the trimmings of design, once again, I always go back to that, we're not trying to make ugly sites. We're trying to make, first and foremost, sites that are usable. And then, yeah, we, well, like any other agency, right? If our site wins a design award, we're like, Hey, high five. Well done, everybody. Um, and I love that. I still love that. Um, but ultimately, if we're the agency that we say we are, we're going to provide a site that meets all the needs of the people that are using it. And that's first and foremost, nice design after that. It's always a wonderful thing. Yeah. Data is a very nebulous term, obviously, and it, and it means, it means many, many things. So obviously, as you've mentioned, Chris, it's always nice when you've got previous analytics to determine users behaviors and things like that, but even if it's a new brand. The data is going to come largely from marketing research and competitive research and, you know, data that comes out of Google and search terms to understand audiences, as well as our own enormous data warehouse from just the vast amount of work that we've done in the industry. Uh, In addition to user testing and what data comes out of that and post launch testing and so, you know, data means a million things and AI is, is most certainly changing, not necessarily the data, but what we can do with it, uh, and ascertain and how we make, um, You know, strategic, strategic directives out of the insights that come from, from data. Um, what would you give for just quick advice, you know, to a marketer who maybe is still a little bit antiquated and not really fully subscribed to digital first data driven design? What would be just a word of advice for them? Well, I would say, you know, it's interesting because the. Let's be honest, if you look, even from a, if you just look at the, the budget that's involved now with, with site design and development, uh, compared to what it used to be, there are these additional add ons, which are inherently useful. Um, I would say once again, I don't want to jump the gun to the whole AI thing right now, but the amount of information I don't, I don't think there's, we're not at a point in time from a design perspective where you can say, You know, we, we have a strategy, um, sort of, you know, portfolio that's designed, you know, that's developed. And then we say, you know, it's like, Hey guys, we've got a big team here. So this is what we've developed. This is the strategy that we performed. Let's get the designers in, let's share that information with them. Even if you don't have that, there is sufficient information that's out there specific to the designing that you're doing. that to not utilize it, it's just, it's criminal. I mean, you can't, once again, I just go back to the idea of You're designing in a vacuum. You're in a complete void of understanding what is needed. And you're just creating pictures. I mean, and that's, that's such a small part of what web design is now. Um, I mean, everything from once again, I, you know, when we hire designers, right, that's number one. I, the first thing I look for is a well rounded portfolio. Someone where I can look at their design portfolio and say, you know, it's a great designer, but there's so many other things now that we have to be aware of. Um, so I would say, yeah, it's still do that homework. Um, the information is out there. It might require a little bit more digging. Um, but to the extent where you don't find that, if you don't find that foundational information, um, it's, it's almost not worthwhile starting a design project. It really isn't. Um, it's going to go wrong, um, which is, once again, I think, you know, just in terms of the way that, you know, we've developed as a company where we have recognized, I mean, where the company I joined. And the company we are right now, hugely different. I mean, just insanely different. Um, even from a size perspective, you know, it's just a little office and there's, you know, the six of us running around. Um, but being able To recognize changes that were coming and having the vision and the focus to go with it. Um, I just, I, I need to actually just do a sort of impromptu plug here, which is there's been nothing over the 15 years that I, where I've been at, imagine where I have gone to the leadership of the company and say, Hey, I recognize this is a thing that's happening. We need to pursue it. We really do because it's the next thing, whether I was right or wrong. Fully backed and them saying, go and pursue it, find out whether it is indeed a thing. And there have been certain things that we've pursued like that didn't work out too well. But once again, don't try, don't, you don't, you don't develop, you know, there's mistakes that are going to be made over time. But there are certain things that we have pursued that have become integral to the company that we are right now. But there's always been a very open stance about try it out. Find it. Um, and if you're not prepared to do that in this industry, then there's another reason why you will fail because, oh my goodness, in the last six months alone, there has been a change that if, if you're not jumping on that train, it's, you know, you'll be waving goodbye. You will be left in the rear view mirror. Um, but that's what I like about working at Imagine. Once again, it's the idea that we, we're not, we don't jump into the, into these things, recognizing that we're wonderful, we're world leaders at this, but boy, we do the homework and we do the grunt work in order to get to the point where we can say, we fully understand it and we're capable of implementing it. And that's. That's one of the most exciting things about, to be honest with you, for me, anyway, like the last 15 years, it is the job that I'm doing now was not the job I was doing back then, and it's incrementally changing. And it's, it's, once again, it's exciting. Um, change is exciting, being so grounded and digital. Obviously, we've always had to innovate, but I think for everybody, including us, that need for perpetual rapid innovation has accelerated. Uh, since around November, December of 22, uh, through the first half of this year, like we've never seen, like nobody's ever seen, um, just to go back on the, again, the importance of data, I think. You know, it's funny, even having been doing this for now 25 plus years, but even today, largely, you know, a barometer of a piece of marketing material, especially a website is people just saying, Oh, it looks great. Oh, that's a nice website. Oh, that's a nice ad. Well, is it? What does the data say? You know, what is the user experience truly based on the data? How well is it converting? What was it, what was that layout driven by? Um, and, and so, you know. A nice website really means what, um, you know, it's gotta be effective and it has to serve the audience and it has to serve the company who has their objectives of converting more patients or leads or investors or whatever it is they're trying to do at the end of the day.