Green Adelaide Podcast

Ep 20: w/ John Kandulu | Flinders University | environmental economics + economic value of green spaces + policy impact + economic analysis

• Melissa Martin • Season 2 • Episode 20

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On this show we’ll be chatting with John Kandulu, from Flinders University, about the economic value of green space. John is a Senior Research Economist.

He has over 15 years of experience as an applied economist, having worked across the education, not-for-profit, private and government sectors. 

His research focuses on formulation and assessment of policies related to natural resource and environmental management. 

His work involves calculating the anticipated net returns on potential investment opportunities, policies and projects. Currently, his research interests are centred on the design and evaluation of effective diversity and inclusion policies to support inclusive natural resource management.

You are listening to the Green Adelaide Podcast. This podcast is your insider scoop on all things cool, green, and wild in metro South Australia. 

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John Kandulu:

We're just making sure that nature's benefits are visible in a system that often sees dollar signs, so it can actually help to protect ecosystems by showing their full range of values, and so both quantifiable and unquantifiable, and demonstrating how much we stand to lose if we destroy them.

Melissa Martin:

Welcome to the first episode of 2025 and you are listening to the Green Adelaide podcast. This podcast is your insider scoop on all things cool, green and wild in metropolitan South Australia. I am your host, Melissa Martin, and on the show today we'll be chatting with John Candelou about the economic value of green space. John is a senior research economist at Flinders University and he has over 15 years of experience as an applied economist. He has worked across the education, not-for-profit, private and government sectors. His research focuses on formulation and assessment of policies related to natural resource and environmental management. Welcome, John, to the Green Adelaide podcast.

John Kandulu:

Thank you, Melissa. It's a pleasure to be here.

Melissa Martin:

Before we dive into your topic of economic value of green space, let's get to know you a little bit better and your career journey to your role today. Can you tell us where did you start your career and how did your career journey to your role today? Can you tell us where did you start your career and how did you end up in your role today?

John Kandulu:

Oh, thank you. So I finished my economics degree with the University of Adelaide in 2005. And at that time we were in the middle of a big drought and everyone was talking about how to deal with climate change, and scientists were really focused on solving problems like water shortages, hot temperatures, flood risks, and so, quite naturally, as someone who lived in Adelaide for a long time, I wanted to use what I'd learnt to help tackle some of the big issues our city was facing. So I got my first professional job in 2006 with the state government it was with a department that looks after the environment and after that I moved to primary research department and later I joined CSIRO working as a natural environments researcher. After CSIRO, I went back to the University of Adelaide to complete my PhD, and I worked there after with the Environment Institute and the School of Economics, and I'm still adjunct with the Environment Institute, but I'm now at Flinders University as a senior research economist.

Melissa Martin:

What inspired you to start that degree and go down that path?

John Kandulu:

So I initially wanted to be a water engineer, and a lot of my mentors had done a lot of water engineering, were water engineers, and so naturally I had exposure to that sector. But then, as I went into my first degree and studied economics and water issues, inevitably you start to learn about the environment, because water issues are not looked at in isolation, and that's what drew my interest to actually look at the environment as a whole system, not just water as one part of the environment. And I also learned that policy decisions are most influenced by economic analysis. When a cost-benefit analysis is undertaken to inform policy decisions and so to really have impactful and meaningful contribution to solving real problems, you cannot run away from informing policy decisions in an effective way, and economics is a big component in influencing public investment decisions, and so that's what drew me to environmental economics.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah. And so maybe some of our listeners will think, oh, going from water engineer to more of the understanding economics Very different fields and you've brought them together. Did that feel natural to you? To just for that like, as by what you're saying it sounds like it was like a logical step for you, but I guess maybe for our listeners it doesn't seem as a natural path to go. What really drew you to that more economic side? Was it just that learning that? Well, you can't really change stuff without showing the economic value of it? I guess talk us through that a little bit more.

John Kandulu:

Yes, so that is a very good question. With the engineering side of things, you are understanding relationships between physical processes and the environment, and that supports a good economic analysis. With mathematics being a natural strength, it was easy for me to then apply the same mathematical skills not just to understand the engineering and physical relationships between environmental processes, but to actually then start to quantify them in dollars and cents, because public investment decisions care about dollars and cents.

Melissa Martin:

When you finished high school and decided on the university route, was anything from when you were a teenager or when you were younger that drew you to more the environmental field?

John Kandulu:

Yes, so I grew up on an island in Malawi, where I was born, and my father was also an islander, and quite naturally you are quite reliant on the environment, and the quality of the environment directly affects your well-being. And so governments making decisions that could improve tourism and grow the economy of the island, but at the expense of the quality of the environment, naturally start to affect the quality of ecosystem services and the natural environment for people living on an island. The natural environment for people living on an island, and it is a more sensitive ecosystem being isolated and being surrounded by water. And so that motivated me to start to actually look at other environmental benefits and how to actually put dollar values to inform decisions beyond just improving tourism, the usual obvious market benefits, and so understanding that from a young age motivated some of my decisions to actually go into economics.

Melissa Martin:

Did you start in South Australia when you came to Australia, or did you study or live in other states in Australia?

John Kandulu:

No, so I've only lived in Adelaide. Yeah, and why would you leave?

Melissa Martin:

Yeah.

John Kandulu:

Yes, and so I came here to do a Bachelor of Economics with the University of Adelaide back in 2005 and decided this is where I want to live.

Melissa Martin:

And how do you define success in your field?

John Kandulu:

So, for me, career success means using my natural talents and skills to solve real problems in my community, and so it's when your job isn't just about paying the bills but doing something that really matters to you and makes a difference. So, basically, it's finding that sweet spot where your work feels rewarding and the positive outcomes are a bonus on top of that.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah, can you draw on some examples, maybe recently in your career, that you felt that alignment?

John Kandulu:

A recent example is probably getting my work reported in the Conversation. So having to develop an article in the Conversation on the impact of dams on the environment in Australia, where the work itself took over seven years to develop, it was highly challenging. It required involving local communities, understanding the challenges of not quantifying impacts of dams on flood-dependent indigenous communities downstream of rivers, and it required not just using technical skills but being fully present in conversations with local communities, flood-dependent farming communities and really understanding what these impacts mean to them, how their communities depend on natural flowing rivers that are not disrupted upstream, and that requires a level of care to actually persevere with a long process that takes as long as seven years. If you're fully focused on just the outcome and you're not fully present in the process itself, it's easy to throw your arms up and give up.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Kandulu:

And so the conversation article as an outcome flows naturally from a process that was in and of itself rewarding and engaging. That was in and of itself rewarding and engaging.

Melissa Martin:

Now we're going to dive into our rapid fire round, which is to take us out of the topic for a little bit and to just fire at you 10 random questions, which are this or that or what's your favourite. To get to know you a little bit differently on the podcast. All right, you ready, I'm ready. All right. The first question is what animal do you think best represents your personality?

John Kandulu:

Oh, that's interesting. A hoverfly.

Melissa Martin:

That's specific.

John Kandulu:

Yeah, explain Okay yeah. So a hoverfly mimics a bee? Yeah, and bees are, but it's a very effective pollinator at the same time, and most insect experts actually misidentify hoverflies as bees, but they go on about their business as effective pollinators very quietly but very effectively as well, and they've perfected the art of not being identified as a fly because they they might be a misperceived as a pest. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they've evolved to be quietly effective when they go on about their business.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah, yeah.

John Kandulu:

So I think I identify with that.

Melissa Martin:

I love it. I love it. Who would play you in a movie about your life?

John Kandulu:

Without thinking too much, I'll say Philip Seymour Hoffman.

Melissa Martin:

Sweet or savoury food.

John Kandulu:

Savoury all day.

Melissa Martin:

What's your pet peeve?

John Kandulu:

Oh right, my pet peeve is when, in conversation, someone is just waiting for an opportunity to tell you about how what you've said relates to their story, rather than actually listening to what you're saying.

Melissa Martin:

What's your go-to coffee order?

John Kandulu:

Flat white.

Melissa Martin:

What's your least favourite sport?

John Kandulu:

Water polo.

Melissa Martin:

Beach or mountains, mountains.

John Kandulu:

Don't have to think about that.

Melissa Martin:

Who would your 12 year old self say is their biggest hero?

John Kandulu:

I probably thought my dad was the bees knees at 12 how do you like to celebrate your birthday? In isolation. Extreme introvert in an idyllic cabin in the hills. Extreme extrovert in an idyllic cabin in the hills perfect.

Melissa Martin:

Last question would you rather have to sing everything you say or dance every time you move?

John Kandulu:

dance all day thank you.

Melissa Martin:

That's the end of our rapid fire round.

John Kandulu:

That was fun.

Melissa Martin:

But it wasn't scary. Now on to our next topic, which is a bit of an overview around the economic value of green space. John, can you talk our listeners through what is meant by the concept of economic value of green space?

John Kandulu:

Green space usually means any area with grass trees or other plants in a city or a town, and so this could be parks, gardens, sports fields or even just trees along streets, and so the economic value of green space is about putting a dollar value on all the good things we get from parks, trees and other green areas in our cities, and so this includes benefits that are often hard to measure in dollars and cents, like making people healthier, happier and helping the environment.

Melissa Martin:

And there's different terms that are thrown around, like natural capital. Does that mean the same thing?

John Kandulu:

So natural capital and natural capital accounting is a bit different. These terms are more about keeping track of how much green space we have and what it's worth, kind of like a stock take. And so the economic value of green space idea goes a step further, in that it helps us to figure out the best ways to manage our green spaces to get the most benefits for the community, and so it weighs up the pros and cons of different options. For example, when deciding what trees to plant on a street, you might want to think about what kind of trees people living in a place would prefer, how much it costs to look after different types of trees, whether trees might damage foodpaths and power lines, how much shade the trees will provide and how well the trees can help prevent flooding. And so these are all benefits that you can put dollar values to, and you can compare different options fairly to make a better decision about your green spaces. It goes beyond just natural capital concepts.

Melissa Martin:

And why do you think it's important to quantify the benefits of green space in economic terms?

John Kandulu:

It is important because if we don't, it's like saying they're worth nothing when we're making decisions about where to spend money.

John Kandulu:

If you think of it this way, if a government's trying to decide whether to spend money on improving parks, building new roads, playgrounds, they need to compare the benefits of each option, and so if we haven't put a value on how parks make people healthier or happier, then on paper it looks like parks aren't worth much, and so this can lead to less money being spent on green spaces because their true value isn't being shown, and so by giving these benefits a dollar value, we can do a fair comparison between different projects, like parks versus roads versus playgrounds, and so it's really about making sure green spaces get a fair shot when governments are deciding how to spend money to help the community.

John Kandulu:

We've seen some attempts to put a value on green spaces. In a recent study by CSIRO in Canberra, for example, they measured a wide range of environmental benefits of green spaces. They considered things like clean air, less stormwater runoff, cooling effects from trees. So this was a good start, but it didn't tell the whole story because it missed out on some crucial health benefits, and so we know that there's strong scientific evidence that green spaces do a lot more for us than just help the environment in terms of our health, so both physical and mental. But many studies, including the Canberra one, don't fully account for these health benefits.

Melissa Martin:

Do you think providing the economic value of green space? Potentially would it be to a tree, and so people could weigh up. You know, is it worth knocking down this tree, this big old gum tree?

John Kandulu:

It would be challenging to value a single tree, to understand the trade-offs and how people value, still emphasises the importance of having a way of measuring as much of a broad set of benefits and costs as you can to support such a decision.

Melissa Martin:

And you mentioned a little bit about Canberra, of how they've implemented assigning economic value to green space. Can you talk us through a bit more whether you think the Canberra one was successful? You mentioned it had a little bit of holes in it and maybe some successful and unsuccessful examples on what you've seen in your work.

John Kandulu:

So in places like Singapore, they've really embraced urban greening. So, despite Singapore being a dense city, they've managed to create a lot of green cover, so their government sees the value in it and has made it a priority. Yeah, I think it shows that with the right approach, even busy cities can become greener and healthier. So the key takeaway from the Singapore case study is that, yes, we're getting better at valuing green spaces. We have work to do. We need to find ways to consider the broader set of benefits when we're making decisions about urban planning, and so their case study is of interest to me, because they've demonstrated that green spaces are not substitutes or are not competing for the same land as other infrastructure, and that they've really embedded them in the physical infrastructure so green roofs, planting trees on roads and not just on curbs, so really integrating green spaces within the broader urban planning design, without seeing them as competition for valuable land for housing or other uses.

Melissa Martin:

How do you think the climate of the area plays into that, because obviously Singapore kind of supports a more greener city compared to Adelaide, which is quite dry. How do you think that plays as an element into doing it well?

John Kandulu:

Huge.

John Kandulu:

Yeah doing it well. Huge, yeah, yes, for for semi-arid cities like adelaide it is huge because the urban heat island effect, where you're looking at hotter temperatures, means we need more trees, but it also means water being scarce. Your choice of which tree species you plant matters. So your drought-resistant species that will offer you your shading benefit without imposing a high cost in terms of watering should support a decision for a city like Adelaide should support a decision for a city like Adelaide. It also means losing trees comes at such a high cost if we're getting higher emergency department presentations during heat waves from heat-related illnesses, it means we need these functional green spaces even more.

John Kandulu:

But I think the key is again horses for courses when comparing what's done in Singapore versus in Adelaide, in understanding that there are different types of green spaces. There are different species of trees, for example, with different attributes, attributes, and so if you are prioritizing a type of benefit, it will drive which type of green space, which green species you choose. And so, with climate change, increasing risk of flooding also becomes into conversation, and so you're looking at are you planting trees that are deep-rooted, because they'll intercept more runoff, broad leaves and for more cooling, and that's the trade-off. You will need an underpinning assessment of these costs and benefits, again considering a broad set of green space types, unique features of different species, species suitability what's suitable where.

Melissa Martin:

And there are some voices that argue that you cannot assign a price to the environment, as it overlooks the deeper value, spiritual or cultural importance of nature. And there's also he talks about the risk to commodification of the environment, and it could suggest that as a society, we're prioritizing profit over protection. What do you think of these views that are?

John Kandulu:

I understand where these concerns are coming from. It's true that putting a price tag on nature, especially its spiritual, cultural value, can feel like we're reducing something priceless to a mere commodity, and so it's a bit like putting a dollar value on love or friendship. It just doesn't seem right, because they're more than just about money. Nonetheless, I think we need to look at this in a pragmatic way. We can't ignore the fact that decisions about how we use our land and resources often come down to money, so not assigning any economic value to ecosystems can actually be more harmful.

John Kandulu:

Even though we're well-meaning in our intentions, when we don't put a value on nature, it often gets treated as if it has no value at all in economic decisions. It can lead to destruction of important ecosystems simply because their worth isn't recognized in the decision-making process, and so there's always a genuine risk and there's a balance. We can start by quantifying the more straightforward benefits, things like flood protection, air purification, carbon storage. They have clear economic impacts that we can measure, and even these aren't comprehensively quantified. So for the less tangible benefits, like culture and spiritual importance, we don't have to assign a specific dollar amount. Instead, we can use qualitative assessments to ensure that these values are considered alongside what we can quantify.

Melissa Martin:

Maybe one of the arguments around assigning economic value is that we live in a capitalist society in Australia. It might be more beneficial to lean into that instead of fighting it, because you can't make that kind of change quickly. It's a whole structure of our society, of how it's set up, so that would take quite a long time. So I guess I always think lean into how society is structured and not try to change it.

John Kandulu:

Yes, yes, I mean. My comment to that is that if we do that, we're not saying that the economic value is the only value, or even the most important one. We're just making sure that nature's benefits are visible in a system that often sees dollar signs, and so it can actually help to protect ecosystems by showing their full range of values, and so both quantifiable and unquantifiable, and demonstrating how much we stand to lose if we destroy them, and so we're looking at services that we're already paying for in other instances. So if you put a street tree in front of a house and it gets shading benefits, it might reduce their energy bills, and so you cannot run away from the capitalist system in that sense.

Melissa Martin:

And so is there a framework in Australia or South Australia to assign this economic value of green space.

John Kandulu:

And so it's a good question. I see this as a key gap. The economic, the ecosystem services framework is a useful tool for understanding and valuing benefits that green spaces provide, and so what it essentially does is it helps us list and categorize various ways that nature helps us, like supporting wildlife, cleaning the air, improving our well-being. But to put a price on these benefits in Australia, we can use several approaches.

John Kandulu:

The cost-benefit analysis framework is one that's been used. We can use avoided cost framework. What essentially this does is it calculates how much money is saved by having green spaces in terms of public service delivery. There's other replacement costs, so we know, for instance, that the cost of building water treatment plants to do the job of wetlands is something that we can get. There is data for that. So we know that some benefits are tricky, like health benefits, but we can still look at lower demand for mental health services and medications in areas with more nature access, and so that's a start. But going back to your question, I think the key gap is developing this approach further, building on these frameworks that already exist in the Australian context, and so we need to create a standardised framework for Australia that combines all of these methods, so integrating culture and social values, especially through Indigenous communities, into the valuation process. These are unique challenges for Australia is for Australia.

Melissa Martin:

Now we'll move on to our next topic, which is we've talked a little bit about it already, but around the challenges to assigning economic value to green space, what do you find is the biggest challenge to tackle? Is it the, I guess, the unclear framework needs to be built, or is it the spiritual, cultural thing, like? What do you find is maybe the biggest blocker all of the?

John Kandulu:

reasons you've cited are definitely part of the piece. Putting a price on green spaces is challenging. One of the biggest challenges is figuring out how to value the things that aren't easily measured, so physical and mental health, and this is an obvious gap in the studies that we've reviewed. For example, it's tough to say how much better a person's health gets just because they have more access to green space, when you consider there are other things like diet, access to health care, social support. So how do you? All these play a big role in mental wellbeing, and it's tough to actually pinpoint exactly how much green spaces contribute to better health. Isolating for all of these factors.

John Kandulu:

What tends to happen is, if you were to attempt to do that, any critical reviewer will pinpoint that some of these issues and you may have to and they'll dismiss your whole assessment, and so you end up throwing the baby with the bathwater. In that instance, that's challenging. There's also a risk that when we try to assign dollar values to green spaces, we might make them seem less appealing than other types of infrastructure. Even when we try our best to put a number on the benefits of green spaces, using reliable methods, we'll likely miss some of the less obvious advantages. What it means is that the total values that we can measure in terms of benefits might still seem lower than the cost of establishing or maintaining these green spaces, and so the risk there is that for a growing city like Adelaide, where there's high demand for residential areas, it might actually seem like a less attractive proposition. When you start to put dollar values, where you're being conservative to avoid criticism but as a result you're misrepresenting the true value of green spaces. So I find that quite challenging.

Melissa Martin:

I guess green space in different areas are valued differently. So to bring it to Adelaide a bit more north, south, east, west, the different level of green space is maybe valued differently in each of the areas. How do you think that can be? Obviously, that's a challenge in signing economic value.

John Kandulu:

Absolutely.

Melissa Martin:

And so that very locational and social elements to it. Yeah, how do you think it could get around that? It's more about how people feel about the space than anything else.

John Kandulu:

I think, to address your question of why green spaces can be more valuable in some areas than others, I like to separate what people think about green spaces from their actual benefit, and so it is true that some people sometimes have different ideas about the value of green spaces. For example, some people might see trees as a nuisance. They'll worry about falling branches, the mess that they create, and so one of the challenges is that these perceptions aren't always based on actual information. You can educate people about the many benefits of green spaces, and you can challenge the misinformation and help people understand the real value of these spaces.

John Kandulu:

I think often people will think green spaces, compared to other infrastructure like roads or buildings, are always competing for the same land, for example, and this leads to the idea that green spaces should only be located in places where land is cheap or not valuable for other uses.

John Kandulu:

However, this isn't true for all types of green spaces. There are different kinds of green spaces and they serve different purposes that can be more beneficial in some locations, but not in others, and so if you plant a tree on a road and only council have tried to do this they've actually demonstrated that roads can coexist with trees without one taking away from the other, and so, in cities like Melbourne, we're seeing innovative solutions like green roofs being explored, where green spaces are integrated into building designs, and so green roofs provide a lot of benefits, like improved air quality and reduced heat, but they also maximize limited land resources. Now the Melbourne case demonstrates that we can find creative ways to incorporate green spaces into our cities without sacrificing valuable land for other uses, and so the argument for location usually omits these coexistences and assume that green spaces threaten other land values that are perceived to be more valuable. But again, there is an important role for education in actually challenging and reconstructing beliefs that may be based on misinformation in some cases.

Melissa Martin:

Do you think putting a price tag on nature would result in people wanting to turn nature into a business and make it less available?

John Kandulu:

You're right, there's a concern that the minute you start putting a price on nature, you could turn it into something that could be bought and sold like a product, and so, yeah, it could lead to situations where nature is only protected if it's profitable, and that could make natural areas less accessible to the public, say for ordinary members of society who cannot afford to pay for it once it's treated as a commodity on the market.

John Kandulu:

However, it's important to recognize that nature provides essential services like clean air, which means that governments have a responsibility to protect and maintain these services for public benefit, and so leaving these vital services entirely to the market could actually lead to situations where they're not adequately protected or they become too expensive for people to access. I think, ultimately, we need to find a balance. So, yes, putting a price on nature helps us to understand its value better, but we need to be careful not to lose sight of the bigger picture. Green spaces play an important role in our quality of life, and their benefits go beyond what can be measured in dollars, and that has to be always the context within which we go about quantifying them and putting dollar values to their benefits quantifying them and putting dollar values to their benefits.

Melissa Martin:

And what do you think would be good enough in this space for now for Metropolitan Adelaide?

John Kandulu:

So a good starting point would be to focus on benefits that we can actually measure. So, yes, even if it's not perfect, we know that there are many benefits, and so assigning a value of zero to them is inaccurate. So a good start would be looking at available data and start to quantify what we can quantify in terms of replacement services, avoided costs where it's actually saving the public money if you have green spaces as an alternative to say, putting in damage mitigation infrastructure like drainage management systems, or higher intensity levels of demand for public health care from heat-related illnesses or mental well-being, and so it offers a good start, but I still believe that we need to develop a consistent framework for valuing green spaces across Australia. I mean this framework should consider the unique nature of our context. Our councils don't have a consistent, standardised framework, and so it makes it difficult to compare apples with apples, and a good start would be quantify what can be quantified using the best available data and developing a consistent framework across our councils across Metropolitan Adelaide.

Melissa Martin:

And that brings us to end of the main questions. But before I let you go, I usually end the interviews with some takeaways, particularly for our listeners who are new to the sector or are thinking about entering the sector. So for listeners new to the industry, what's one learning from your environmental career journey so far that you wish you knew when you started?

John Kandulu:

a key feature in my career development so far has been just realizing that, yes, technical skills are important, but just as important you need the soft skills, the people skills, working in a team, and they are just as important as developing your technical skills communicating well. So, yes, I would say that, but also finding something that you do that, yes, will nurture your strengths, your strengths, but also you will find rewarding in and of its own right, without being, yes, we all need to pay bills, we all need to keep our lights on, but I think, to fully apply yourself in what you're doing, your motivations have to go beyond that, and so career advancement follows naturally from the quality of your presence in your work, and so your career success will be a good bonus if you're fully present in what you're doing.

Melissa Martin:

Thanks, John. Thank you so much for your time today.

John Kandulu:

Thank you, Melissa.

Melissa Martin:

We are at the end of this episode of the Green Adelaide Pod. Thank you to our very special guest, John Kandalu, who is a Senior Research Economist at Flinders University. I hope this episode gave you some insights into assigning the economic value to green space and how there was a clear gap to doing that in Adelaide to help protect our green spaces. This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land and I acknowledge and pay my respects to the Kaurna people as the traditional custodians of the land. The Green Adelaide Podcast is your insider scoop on all things cool, green and wild in metropolitan South Australia. On all things cool, green and wild in metropolitan South Australia. I'm your host, Melissa Martin. Subscribe to our podcast for new episode alerts and I'll catch you next month. Bye.