Poultry Keepers Podcast

Manure Management-Part 2

• Rip Stalvey, John Gunterman, and Mandelyn Royal • Season 2 • Episode 73

Share episode

In this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, Mandelyn, John, and Rip discuss optimal protein levels for poultry diets, the benefits of different bedding materials for coops, and the importance of proper manure management. 

They emphasize the risks associated with using diatomaceous earth and recommend safer alternatives like agricultural lime. The hosts share personal experiences and methods for maintaining clean, safe environments for both poultry and humans, including pest control tips and the significance of protective gear. 

They also highlight the role of poultry manure in soil improvement and environmental benefits, encouraging listeners to adapt strategies according to their local conditions. 

You can email us at - poultrykeeperspodcast@gmail.com
Join our Facebook Groups:

Poultry Keepers Podcast -
https://www.facebook.com/groups/907679597724837
Poultry Keepers 360 - - https://www.facebook.com/groups/354973752688125
Poultry Breeders Nutrition - https://www.facebook.com/groups/4908798409211973

Check out the Poultry Kepers Podcast YouTube Channel -
https://www.youtube.com/@PoultryKeepersPodcast/featured

Alex:

Welcome to the Poultry Keepers Podcast! In this episode Mandelyn, John, and Rip discuss optimal protein levels for poultry diets, the benefits of different bedding materials for coops, and the importance of proper manure management. They emphasize the risks associated with using diatomaceous earth and recommend safer alternatives like agricultural lime. The hosts share personal experiences and methods for maintaining clean, safe environments for both poultry and humans, including pest control tips and the significance of protective gear. They also highlight the role of poultry manure in soil improvement and environmental benefits, encouraging listeners to adapt strategies according to their local conditions.

Mandelyn Royal:

For mature birds, you want to be at 20 percent or less to avoid that ammonia buildup from too much protein. And for growing birds and broilers, you don't want to exceed 24 percent protein. And that'll help a lot in the stink of it.

Rip Stalvey:

I don't know, John, you do deep bedding method, don't you? Yes. Mandy, do you do that?

Mandelyn Royal:

Every once in a while, usually over winter, because I want that little added heat bump.

Rip Stalvey:

Yeah, for the winter. As long as I can keep

Mandelyn Royal:

it dry.

Rip Stalvey:

Do either of you add anything to the bedding when you put it in there, like sulfur for parasite control, or maybe diatomaceous earth?

Mandelyn Royal:

I stopped using the diatomaceous earth because I saw some studies that implied that it could be a lung irritant, and I'm not trying to add that in. I'll use agricultural lime. And maybe some sulfur, and then sand, like I like sand mixed with peat moss, I like that a lot, and it helps keep it loose and fluffy, and helps with expense too, because peat moss is dang expensive.

It is. When

Mandelyn Royal:

you have a lot of pens like I do, and I'm looking at half a pallet to refresh everything. That's five hundred bucks Asking

John Gunterman:

you about sifting your peat and reusing it because that's the slowest thing to break down in the whole system, which is

Mandelyn Royal:

super slow and I like how it neutralizes the odor That's a cool benefit that the other bedding options don't have

right

Mandelyn Royal:

plus we need it for our clay soil So I'm getting two uses out of the peat moss Versus a single use out of the other bedding types until I have that compost yield.

Rip Stalvey:

So in other words, you're saying you got, you're basically getting your peat moss at half price.

Mandelyn Royal:

Yeah, because I'm going to get it anyways for the garden amendment. May as well run it through chickens first and let it pick up a nitrogen load. Because for the garden, peat moss doesn't have any nutritional value, really, in and of itself. But by the time it's lived with chickens, now it has a lot more available fertilizer benefits coming with it, too.

John Gunterman:

Around here, they sell it as soil conditioner, because we have very rocky soil. We're on what they call glacial tillage. So it's all the rubble left over when the glaciers receded. So there's not a lot of stuff. We need organic matter and this is their way of, getting some air into the soil and getting some retention. We got, we have amazing drainage, but zero retention. So peat moss can really help in that regard. So let's get it filled with a good nutrient. In our coops before we put it out in the garden.

Mandelyn Royal:

Yeah.

Rip Stalvey:

Oh, before we move on and I forget, Mandy, you were talking about the dangers in diatomaceous earth causing lung damage. Was at a presentation one time and he had some really high magnification images of diatomaceous earth and it was like little shards of very sharp glass. Yes. And then he had a. picture, high magnification picture of the inside of a chicken's lung, where they had been using diatomaceous earth, and it had all these little small cuts into the lung lining, so that's,

Mandelyn Royal:

yeah, I stopped using it off of a theory, but that sounds like proof.

Rip Stalvey:

Sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I wish I could find him, but he was, it was at a seminar I went to, and I should have asked him if I could get copies, but I digress, I didn't

John Gunterman:

do it. I've shared in the past that I do have some challenges with my lungs from my military service, and my pulmonologist said, DE, absolutely not. You stop using it, even wearing a respirator, I don't want you anywhere near it. Okay. Yes, sir.

Rip Stalvey:

It can be dangerous stuff.

John Gunterman:

But it can be very effective properly used. And that's really the point is use everything properly. This is another thing where people think a little bit's good, a lot's great. No, it doesn't work like that.

Rip Stalvey:

What about agricultural lime? Do you guys use that?

Mandelyn Royal:

I do.

Rip Stalvey:

I have not, but I've been strongly, much cheaper than much poultry

Mandelyn Royal:

branded lime. And it's essentially very similar, but the cost difference, like what? What's the one, the first Saturday lime that they branded for poultry use? Yeah,

yeah.

Mandelyn Royal:

What? Five times as much money Because it has a chicken on the bag.

Rip Stalvey:

I never have figured out concept out, but whatever.

Mandelyn Royal:

yeah just go to the farm store and get ag lime. It'll be like five bucks or less.

Rip Stalvey:

Yes. What about are there any cautions? I don't use Agilab down here, but is there any cautions that folks should be aware of when they're applying that?

Mandelyn Royal:

You don't want it to have direct contact, like you don't want to cover the floor of your pen and leave it for direct contact with their feet. It's to be used sparingly, and it, what it does is it helps pull out moisture, it eliminates odor, it's dusty, but without the dust harmfulness that the DE can have. You just use it sparingly, just a little light sprinkle and cover it over with the bedding. It'll pull the stink out. Just don't overuse it and use it responsibly and you'll be alright.

John Gunterman:

Yeah, wear long sleeves, goggles, and gloves. Yeah, gloves, respirator. Keep yourself safe

Mandelyn Royal:

when you're in there, following with them.

Rip Stalvey:

What about pest control?

John Gunterman:

It's the bane of my existence.

Rip Stalvey:

So

Mandelyn Royal:

another reason I got away from straw. And I don't use any hay or anything is because that hollow inside is the perfect habitat and breeding ground of mites and lice and things like that. Yes. So just have to be careful that your bedding is not introducing habitat because if they can live there, they're coming. So don't give them enough space to live. Or a

John Gunterman:

food source for other small Yeah, or

Mandelyn Royal:

a food source.

Rip Stalvey:

If you're using a straw or something like that and you don't turn it, or shavings, insects, they'll find a happy little home down underneath the top layer of that stuff. And you won't even know they're there. Some domestic beetles. Those things can be bad, and then there's I forget the name of the beetle now, but it's a little black, so it basically looks like a mealworm in the larval stage. But they'll actually eat that foam insulation, if you have any in your coop. They'll just devour that stuff.

Mandelyn Royal:

What do you think of the advice I of throwing chicken scratch into the bedding to make the chickens stir it themselves.

Rip Stalvey:

A lot of old timers used to do that.

John Gunterman:

I don't want to put anything that's going to attract any vermin or other things besides the chickens into the actual coop itself.

Rip Stalvey:

Yeah, that's a good point, John. And if you're going to do that, just throw a small handful and scatter it really well. Just enough. Don't just dump a handful there in one spot because that's not going to do you any good.

John Gunterman:

Jeff's always saying, stop feeding your birds off the ground. And I try to follow that advice, I was actually talking to a local pheasant, somebody who raises pheasants, and they told me that it's incredibly difficult because if they eat their own poop even once, they die, they like have to yeah.

Mandelyn Royal:

Now in the wild, the odds of them eating out of their own poo is next to nothing because they poop and walk away and immediately go somewhere else, but in a domestic environment, they're on top of each other. And if your flock does not have that much space, the odds of you throwing that feed directly onto poo, it's pretty high, depending on your stocking range. I always have the big round feed pans, I have those scattered around, cause I know my ducks right now, respond to food, and I have strategized feed pans where I can throw it on the ground, but it's not on the ground, it's in the pan.

Rip Stalvey:

John, you talked about it just a little bit, and I know you have the respiratory issues, but Let's talk, if you would, just a few minutes about what folks can do in the way of personal protection to help reduce that possibility.

John Gunterman:

We've all heard about, the N95 masks. I would say that's the bare minimum. And goggles. So you're, there's sinus passages that go up into your eyes even. If you're a scuba diver, one of our favorite tricks is to blow bubbles through our eyes. You fill up your goggles with some water. So everything's connected. And you really gotta protect your lungs and your whole respiratory system from infection. That's really the big thing. There, there are viral infections, there's bacterial infections that you can pick up. We talked about poultry worker lung. I'm very sensitive to it. I can feel it. Pretty quick. Even the Canadian wildfires start blowing over, I feel it. So what about, I've got to be very clean.

Rip Stalvey:

What about using gloves? Do you recommend that?

John Gunterman:

I do, but I wear a leather glove. I don't like wearing surgical gloves. They just don't work. They just don't work for me and end up tearing working around the farm. So I've got a good pair of leather gloves to just stay outside. I try to remind myself not to use my front teeth to grab the first two fingers to pull my glove off. It's a bad habit, there's been so many times I've been standing there with something in my mouth going, this is bad. I have literally manure in my mouth right now. But to some level, the, our human body is designed to take a little bit of this.

Mandelyn Royal:

That's good because I'm a little feral in my use of gloves. Like I hardly ever use gloves and I will look at my hand and go, Oh, look at that smear. That's disgusting. And then I wiped it off on my pants, but I have started keeping sanitizing wipes in my workstation so that if I do get the poo on me, I can clean it better than just the hose will.

John Gunterman:

Even when I was doing draft animal work, I'd always, grab reins and hold them in my teeth or, teeth are like a second Or third hand for me.

Mandelyn Royal:

See, I don't do it that way, but getting it on my hands and then wiping it wherever, I'm bad about that. And I've been slimed by horses when they were eating, and then they come up and then wipe their whole face up my side. I have been slobbered on, pooped on. And otherwise, made a mess of immediately before having to go to work.

John Gunterman:

You do get a fear over this phobia of manure pretty quick, if you're gonna be around farmed animals of any kind. That's for sure.

Mandelyn Royal:

Do you guys have dedicated shoes? Yes. I do too. I have dedicated coop boots that never leave this property, and it's what I wear as almost my chicken tending uniform.

John Gunterman:

And that was especially important when I was at the local college I had different boots, and yes, even different coveralls that never the two met, and I was pretty cognizant to try and shower as soon as I got home from school, and, when I left for school in the morning, I was fresh and clean.

Mandelyn Royal:

Have you guys read through your local ordinances to see if there's stipulations on what they want you to do? For the manure management. Cause when we lived in the city and I had my small urban flock, it was regulated in that we were supposed to throw it out. We were not supposed to compost it and we were not supposed to retain it on the property. Whatever we cleaned out of the coop, they actually put in the regulations that it's supposed to go in the trash.

John Gunterman:

You have, I was surprised. I was like, what do you mean? We can't

Mandelyn Royal:

compost it.

John Gunterman:

But you have trash pickup and they, Do they require it to be labelled so they can sort it at the other end and compost it at their facility? Oh,

Mandelyn Royal:

that's too bad. That part wasn't written in.

John Gunterman:

Vermont, it's against the law to not compost anything that is compostable. And you have to recycle anything that's recyclable. Now, one county

Mandelyn Royal:

away, we're allowed to compost it. Just one county away. We can compost to our little heart's content.

John Gunterman:

Sure. Check your local ordinances. Everything's there to, supposedly to keep people safe. And for the most part, that's what it does. But be smart.

Rip Stalvey:

And if you're not sure where to start checking, check with your local Environmental Protection Agency. They're often a very good source of information that's overlooked.

John Gunterman:

Your county ag agent and your NPIP inspector. They're an amazing resource because they get to see every farm everywhere in your state. A lot more than a lot of other people.

Rip Stalvey:

I'd learned something just within the last two weeks that I thought was pretty interesting thanks to Frank Rees. He sent me a scientific research paper where in China, they have a method to use poultry manure to clean up crude oil spills. What? There's something about it, it breaks down, I don't remember all the particulars, but it breaks down that spilled oil. And Frank says that he has a company that comes and just loads up all his manure anytime he wants to clean out the barn and hauls it off and they use it for that purpose. If anybody's interested let me know or I'll tell you what, I'll just go ahead and post that study on the Poultry Keepers Podcast Facebook group and you can grab it there, but I thought that was a pretty unique thing to happen.

Mandelyn Royal:

Yeah.

Rip Stalvey:

I also know a lot

Mandelyn Royal:

of chickens in the planet. That's a lot of cleanup material. That's

Rip Stalvey:

right. They could probably clean up more than they could find crude oil. Another thing that I think that's a really good way, a novel way to dispose of manure. And it's, it's not something that everybody can do, but the large operations, I know a few of them now are creating manure. digesters, can't talk, manure digesters for creating methane gas and they use the methane gas as a source of energy on their farms for heat, for lights it's, and it works. There's some good things going on with manure. If you can that sounded counterintuitive there, there'd be good things going on with manure.

John Gunterman:

I'm, I got a bunch of puns, let's close the loop, the poop loop. Good one John. Put it back in, put it back into our soil. We need to start thinking about a regenerative agriculture model.

Rip Stalvey:

Absolutely.

John Gunterman:

I got to stick that in there cause I just spent five years getting a degree in regenerative agriculture. So let's start putting all this goodness back into our soil. Let's use our soil as a savings bank rather than a debit card.

Rip Stalvey:

John, recently I've been seeing several studies and posts about how the. When they free range, not only poultry, but other livestock as well, that the manure is actually what helps to restore the soil's life.

John Gunterman:

Yes, and the natural action of the animal, there, there's this interesting balance between the manure and the animal that deposits it and what they naturally do to mix it into the soil at surprisingly the exact perfect level in the soil strata. So a big, heavy, ruminant, That's, got these hooves is going to churn their manure in at, to a deeper level. Whereas the chicken's going to scratch and peck and just turn their manure in at a much higher level in the soil strata. And unsurprisingly, guess it's all works perfectly. If you let it happen naturally. When we first

Mandelyn Royal:

moved to our property, we had an issue where after a rain, The topsoil just turned into snot. You could not walk anywhere. Oh, it was gross. I'm talking three, four inches. Your boots are sinking in and it didn't take much rain for that to happen. So we knew right off the bat we had drainage problems. So as we built up the bird pens and as the rain happened and our runoff happened, what we saw in the grass, was a difference of eight inches of grass growth where the water was going naturally. So by having the birds on the property and then seeing where the runoff went, that manure being in that runoff showed us exactly where we needed to dig for the natural flow of the property, because the ribbons of grass told us. It was a huge difference in the density And the color, it was different grass just by having the poop run off. And then it showed us exactly where we needed to dig to install our drainage. And just by being patient and watching that over, all four seasons. And so we dug where those big thick ribbons of grass were, we put in our drainage and now our topsoil stays where it should and I don't sink into it. When I'm walking through it after a rain, it was really neat to see the difference in the foliage of the grass, because it was the same grass, no matter where it was growing, it's mostly fescue. We're going to try to switch that over into more native species, but just the difference of having the runoff versus regular rain. We didn't have to reseed. We just let those ribbons go to seed themselves and reseed those areas. Now I'm on the hunt for better forage and better native species to use, but now we know where all the water is on our property and what happens to it just because of that little extra poo load telling us what happened.

Rip Stalvey:

One thing I would encourage people to do is just don't take what we say literally. As everything, I would encourage you to get out there and research and dig around. You will be surprised at the information you will find on manure management, regenerative farming, just all kinds of topics that will benefit you as a poultry keeper. You don't have to dig very far.

Mandelyn Royal:

And shrink it down to what's relevant for your climate, your environment, your plot goals, your scale of operation. Cause what's good for me in Ohio probably doesn't work for Rip in Florida, and neither of what both of us do will work for John in Vermont. Consider where you specifically are and what matters there.

Rip Stalvey:

Amen.

Mandelyn Royal:

Cause none of us know what you guys have to do about it in Arizona, but I'd imagine you don't have a moisture problem.

Rip Stalvey:

And this goes back to the whole concept of regionality that we talk about frequently that what works for me is not going to work for you guys. And the birds that are good for me is not going to be the best for y'all. John's a case in point with the Chanticleers. So always, when you're doing research, view it through that lens. Will this work for me, just like Mandy said?

Mandelyn Royal:

Try it and see, for science. And

John Gunterman:

my system that I've developed over a few years of doing it, is a combination of a lot of other things that I've learned along the way. I can't adopt another person's system entirely, because Every aspect is going to be slightly different. So that's what I do. I collect

Mandelyn Royal:

it, I try it and then I tweak it.

John Gunterman:

I always say incremental improvement, start with a base and, improve what needs to be fixed to make your life easier and make better birds.

Rip Stalvey:

I can't tell you how many times I have picked up tidbits of information from a non poultry source. Okay. That would have application to my poultry flock. and my management of it. So don't just think you got to find out about chicken manure.

John Gunterman:

There's another great book that I mailed to Rip a long time ago by Temple Grandin, Ethical Livestock Handling. First off, if you're not familiar with Temple Grandin, check out their books and their research. But they are single handedly responsible for reconfiguring the whole abattoir or slaughterhouse industry in the United States to be more and more ethical and humane. And that should be something too that we're thinking about keeping our animals, I like Joe Salatin's analogy that his birds have the best life he can give them and one really bad day at the end.

Mandelyn Royal:

And I try to do it to where their last day isn't that bad either, like they don't even see it coming.

John Gunterman:

No, it's their best day. Except they don't get to have food after they go to bed.

Mandelyn Royal:

But they don't know that.

Rip Stalvey:

Alright. John, you got anything you want to add here before we close out?

John Gunterman:

Nope. Thanks for listening. I know we've been gone for a little while. It's fantastic to be back. Let's get rolling into another year. You guys are off to great and wonderful things in Ohio. Yes. Yeah. I'm

Mandelyn Royal:

excited for the Ohio National Show. Oh, and Rip, thank you for finding all of our material that's been in the podcast recently. It's been super interesting to listen to while I was out sick for a little while. And man, that was a huge hang up. That glitched my methodology so hard by being sick.

Because no matter what, everyone

Mandelyn Royal:

still needs fed.

Yep.

Mandelyn Royal:

And there's something different when you're having a, like a sinus illness, like I had, and you go out there and that dust hits your lungs. I felt it more than ever. And I went and I restocked on my face mask because probably the worst thing I could have done for myself was fill all that mucus with poultry dust. So I was extra vigilant. And then I was in like a maintenance mode of just getting out there, doing my chores, keeping everyone alive until the next day. And so my husband, he was like, are you okay? Do you need help? I'm like, yeah, I need help with, XYZ. But other than that, everyone's going to live till tomorrow.

John Gunterman:

It really helps streamline your process and become more efficient.

Mandelyn Royal:

I need automated water. That would be life changing. I probably spend 30 minutes a day on drinkers every day, sick or not.

Alex:

We hope you enjoyed listening to this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast. Please join us next week for another episode of talking poultry, from feathers to function.

People on this episode

Head Shot

John Gunterman

Co-host
Head Shot

Mandelyn Royal

Co-host
Head Shot

Rip Stalvey

Co-host