Poultry Keepers Podcast

Grow Out Secrets: What Your Young Flock Is Telling You-Part 1

• Rip Stalvey, Mandelyn Royal, and John Gunterman • Season 3 • Episode 108

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Discover the secrets hidden in your young flock’s development!
In this episode of The Poultry Keepers Podcast, we dive deep into the overlooked but crucial grow-out phase—the time between brooding and maturity. Learn how to observe, track, and interpret the subtle (and not-so-subtle) messages your birds are giving you.

Join Rip, John and Mandelyn as they share proven tips on:

  • Early growth indicators and what they mean
  • Choosing future breeders through observation
  • Managing nutrition, housing, and temperament
  • Understanding the role of genetics, feed, and environment
  • Recordkeeping tips that help guide breeding and culling decisions

Whether you're raising birds for eggs, meat, or show, this episode will help you level up your poultry knowledge.

Don’t forget to subscribe for new episodes every Tuesday, plus bonus content on Thursdays and Saturdays!

Do you have a poultry friend who would benefit from this? Share this episode and help them grow stronger flocks, too.

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Rip Stalvey:

Welcome to the Poultry Keepers podcast. Today we're focusing on one of the most important but often overlooked stages of poultry keeping, and that's the grow out phase. When the moment chicks leave the brooder until they reach maturity, every sign I. Behavior and growth milestone is telling you something. Are you listening? In this episode, we'll explore how to observe, document, and interpret what your growing birds are communicating and how that guides you to your flock's future success. And joining me here is John and Mandelyn. Hey guys. Good to see you again. Haven't talked to you in a while.

Mandelyn Royal:

Morning. Glad to be back at it.

Rip Stalvey:

I hope things are going. Just Jim Dandy fine up your way.

John Gunterman:

Yay. We're a little soggy, April showers bring April mud. It's the wet season here. It's time to go get a couple more bales of hay and straw and throw'em around the run. Keep the chicken's feet. Dry.

Rip Stalvey:

I wish it was a wet season here. It's been so dry.

Mandelyn Royal:

It's mixed blessing during grow out season.'cause when you're growing the young birds, they might be a little sensitive to that added moisture and might come with some added care needs to keep'em dry and safe.

John Gunterman:

Sure. But we do get a lot of extra protein with all the earthworms and bug larvae and stuff popping up. They're loving it.

Mandelyn Royal:

Oh yeah. They creep up to the surface to hide from that extra water and the birds just scoop'em right up.

Rip Stalvey:

I'll tell you what, there's a silver lining to every cloud isn't there? You betcha.

Most of them.

Rip Stalvey:

Let's kick this off. Why the grow out phase matters and, we've bred the birds, we've hatched the eggs, we've booted the chicks, and then we come to this grow out phase. A lot of folks, I think, look at it as a. Wait and see stage, but there's really a lot going on with our birds, and instead of just looking at it as a growth stage, look at it this way, growth equals their genetic potential and. Plus nutrition plus management. Now, if you're overlooking the stage, can lead to lost productivity or poor breeding decisions, and it can lead to lost productivity, especially as the birds start to mature. How has early growth indicators shaped how has early growth indicators shaped your long-term plot goals? Mandelyn.

Mandelyn Royal:

Since I'm doing the dual purpose thing, and since I'm monitoring growth rate, and since I have a preferred window of harvest between 14 and 16 weeks old, I have a lot I need to pay attention to from five weeks to 12 weeks. So they're out of the brooder, they're feathered, and on the one hand I can just drop'em in a grow pen and. Check on'em in 16 weeks, or I can monitor what they're doing week by week to find those birds that are growing the best, to find the ones who filled out, who gained their flushing and then maintained it for the duration.'cause when they are growing, there's several different growth rates they can have. They might be a little speedy, they might be a little in between. They might be super fast. And that is gonna closely tie into the sort of bird they're supposed to become. And the bone structure, the height, all of that happens at different rates for different breeds, for different bloodlines. So during the grow out phase, you wanna get in there with them and monitor and check and figure out what you have and how it's best to work with them.

John Gunterman:

Yep. I like to as you all know, I'm a data-driven breeder, and I put most of my focus and energy straight into those first three weeks when they're in the, I. Bruter doing my daily weight checks.'cause I get a really strong indicator of later growth by capturing that very early growth potential. And then once they hit the ground at three weeks, I'm pretty much just confirming everything and going, yep, you can go. Pretty much by that time, I've got my eyes on just a few keepers and everybody else, I'm just growing out for harvest or for sale.

Mandelyn Royal:

That happened to me yesterday actually. We had a group of cock rolls to process and one of those cock rolls I had in with my turkeys'cause he was being full of himself early. And they hit the grill pin at about five weeks. But I already made a pick for a male. It's I think it's gonna be this one based on early growth in those first three weeks.

Yeah.

Mandelyn Royal:

So yesterday when I was going through'em who's getting processed today and who gets the reprieve to show me some more about'em. My original pick held up, so that was neat. He's still a Turkey out there doing his little bird thing

John Gunterman:

and he is probably benefiting from some of that extra protein in the Turkey feed.

Mandelyn Royal:

Yeah, probably.

John Gunterman:

Yeah. And he ranges competition and lack of competition by other of his own breed. He's basically king of the turkeys now.

Mandelyn Royal:

There's one male Turkey that gives him a run for his money and keeps him in check. But he's cool. We'll see how he pans out. He is 15 weeks now.

John Gunterman:

Okay I'm just starting my Turkey journey. I've got some pulses at just coming up on a week old and they've they've stolen my heart. They're wonderful little chicks, but we'll probably loop her back around to them later.

Yeah, probably.

Rip Stalvey:

It sounds like you guys do something that I do as I try to look at this grow out phase as. An opportunity to show me who the potential breeder candidates are for next year. Yes,

John Gunterman:

for real. That's it. Everybody else is either freezer or layer.

Rip Stalvey:

Exactly. You can learn so much. It goes back to what. The individual who's got the flock what their goals are, what's their long term goals. And then you try to use those to sort back and go through those birds. Okay, this bird helped me reach this goal. No. What about this bird over here? Maybe, but what about this bird over here? Oh, yeah. He'll do it. It can help in your decision making process

Mandelyn Royal:

well, and it gives you a pretty clear indication of what you're breeding too, because watching that grow out phase is giving you everything you need to know about the birds you put together and hatched from to get those results. So what did they give you? What? What do you see from that prior generation that. The grow outs are showing you in their growth. Was there consistency? Was there good utility, was the feather growth correct for your environment and climate? Did you see any changes from how those parents grew out or the parents before them? Think about the whole line up to that point for as long as you had'em, and if you're seeing better, similar, or worse results than you saw before.

Rip Stalvey:

And I think that goes back to keeping good records because I'm, I, let's face it, I'm getting older and I get quite forgetful, but I can go back and refer to those notes and say, okay, now last year at this time, my birds were averaging. Being at this point. Now, this year they may be, are they a little bit ahead of that? Are they right on target for that or are they dragging along getting there, but not quite there? So again, keep good records. Keep really good records.

John Gunterman:

These daily weights as chicks is so empowering and I'm always trying to get people to, to do this. I got two hens back that I hatched out and tracked before they were sold off. And then they've been passed around the neighborhood and I actually got'em back and I'm hatching eggs from them now. And I was able to go back into my records and look at their development data for the first three weeks of their life and. And the looking at the charts against the eggs that are developing now from them. Ooh, it there. There's some powerful stuff there. I'm you're a great aunt of this bird and you're the mother of this bird, and I can see some very strong familial ties in those lines.

Rip Stalvey:

That's what I like about line breeding is that you can hit a point with your line breeding. Where you start to see uniformity of the flock overall, but uniformity of different lines and how they grow and how they develop. And you can look at a bird and say, oh, I had a bird that looked like you three or four years ago. Uhhuh and it's amazing. I love it. Yeah. Oh yeah.

John Gunterman:

Something pops up. It's oh, I remember your mother.

Mandelyn Royal:

What's fascinating in my grow outs this year is I'm into the F two part of my little project where I'm using my American Bresse with some of John's chant heckler genetics, and I only used one male, but the backside of that bird is stamped on the every single offspring I've gotten so far the way the tail is, the shape, the angle. That's hanging in there strong.

Rip Stalvey:

It's amazing how some of that stuff breeds forward, isn't it?

Mandelyn Royal:

Sure, yeah. And how does that, because I've interrupted it a lot, what does that do

John Gunterman:

to the body capacity and overall structure of the Bresse for you? Are you finding it beneficial to the structure or, oh, it's all over the place.

Mandelyn Royal:

They're the biggest, they're the smallest. They're tall, they're short, they're wide. They're everything. Oh, yeah.

John Gunterman:

You got a whole lot of genetic cp. Yeah, I'm already in the suit for the next several generations, but,

Rip Stalvey:

I think Mandy thrives on the genetic soup stuff. She gets off on that. I

Mandelyn Royal:

Fascinating. Every single bird we processed yesterday was different. So one got reprieve and there were eight others that were not, and every single one of'em was different.

John Gunterman:

I've had birds upside down in the cone and I just put my hand in their vent area. As I'm getting ready to do the deed and I've gone, oh whoa. Wait a minute. No, you need to come back on out. Because I just felt some structure that I'm like, oh, that, that structure is just great. I need that in my hands. Mr. Rooster, you just got a reprieve. You're not barbecue. Maybe at least not this week. But that comes to, also knowing your breeds. If you have individual line within that lines, within that breed. Knowing them, you, some people have the luxury of having the space and capacity to handle, a dedicated meat versus egg line. I'm splitting it right down the middle. I'll compromise a little bit of egg production and a little bit of meat production to get good overall meat and egg productions.

Rip Stalvey:

Lemme ask you both a question and Mandy, I, we'll start with you, but. What do you find your grow outs are really telling you? Has and has that changed over the years?

Mandelyn Royal:

They're really good at telling me if they need more space, if I need to upsize the water drinker, if I need to adjust the feed quantity. If I notice, like for example, bickering coming at 8, 9, 10 weeks old. I'll look at my stocking rate and go, oh yeah, they are a little tight. I should fix that. So I'll split the group up and give'em a lot more space. And all that flock drama went away. But if I had ignored the symptoms and it would've, gotten worse and worse, as that stuff tends to do, if you're paying attention and you're listening to them, they're gonna tell you every step of the way if they need something more. And as they gain in size and as they gain in confidence, and as they. Start showing more about themselves. You can start looking at who has the most vigor? Who's developing the right sort of temperament or the incorrect sort of temperament? And if you're seeing incorrect temperaments it's a good time to check on your husbandry and your stocking rate and all that to make sure it's not your fault, so that you're getting a more clear representation of what the birds are naturally doing, when all of your methods are in line with what they need.

Rip Stalvey:

Awesome. John, same question for you. What do you find your grow outs are really telling you?

John Gunterman:

Whether or not I'm doing my job correctly.

Mandelyn Royal:

Pretty much. Yeah.

John Gunterman:

That's for sure. Honestly that, that is a pretty strong indicator. You can't hide flaws are gonna be flaws. Yeah, exactly.

Mandelyn Royal:

I'm taking the good notes on growth and knowing what the line can do that's gonna let you know if your feed changes are working. Because let's say for example, you have two or three generations of really good growth and then you changed your feed, you get into another generation, and now the growth is different. Did you have enough notes to tell you it was different? Do you even know it's different?'cause if you're not still in there weighing and tracking. You won't see those little differences unless you're taking your notes and monitoring

Rip Stalvey:

that. That's so right. And guessing is never a good tool to rely on when you're breeding poultry. It always bites you. I. It always bites you.

John Gunterman:

Sure. And Mandy, you're probably looking for about the opposite of what I am before the fleshing starts to get dense on the birds. When I'm feeling my birds, I'm hefting them to assess the bone density and you have very fine thin bones, so you're probably, at a certain. Phase of growth, you're able to lift them up and go, yeah, you've got the bone density. I'm looking for the, we'll see how the fleshing comes in on you.

Mandelyn Royal:

I think that's exactly right because I saw that yesterday in,'cause there is one cockrell, he just looked more than everyone else and I was like that, that probably looks like a real nice bird, actually. But then when I picked him up, I didn't feel the fleshing that I need to be there for my earlier harvest windows. He was all structure. He was gonna be an absolutely massive bird. I am willing to bet, and if I had the space and time to grow him out and find out that bird would've ended up at 12 pounds by the time he was 14 months old.

John Gunterman:

But do you want a bird that takes 14 months to reach heart's? No, I don't. Maturity

Mandelyn Royal:

Because when I picked him up at 15 weeks, he was all structure and no me. We got what we could and bagged them up anyways.

Rip Stalvey:

Why let's I've got a theory here, but let's talk a little bit why people so often overlook the grow out phase. I think most hobbyists tend to focus on either producing chicks or producing eggs. I

John Gunterman:

think it's, you folks think they can take a break? I. Yeah. Or you're lulled into the thought that, I've put all this work into it. Now it's time to just, feed'em and water'em and let'em grow and just observe. And it definitely requires a higher level of engagement. During the grow out phase, they'll do okay if you just feed'em and water'em, keep good food and water and grit and calcium in front of'em at all times, and keep their environment clean and safe, and they're gonna do fine. But they're going to benefit from your daily interaction. I'm, there's that famous experiment Jeff did at Fertrell with the turkeys, and I'm doing that now with my pulse, and I've already learned that with my chicks. Every chick gets weighed every day. I. For the first three weeks. And it's not just pick it up, throw it on the scale, get the weight, grab the next one. I spend a couple of seconds with it. I talk to it, I coo it, I, pet it a little bit. I'm trying to get it just there's a fine line because later down the road, especially now that these physical limitations are stunning to, mount and compound on me. I can't have birds that are trip hazards in the yard for me. But I need them to also, have a certain level of familiarity and not be afraid of humans and not be aggressive ever towards a human. So you can definitely over socialize your chicks,

Mandelyn Royal:

especially when the hormones start coming in on the males. And if they have no fear of you whatsoever, they're gonna ask if you wanna play. And the way they play may not be the way you want to engage with them.

Rip Stalvey:

Amen. And then down the

Mandelyn Royal:

line past that, it's not play anymore.

Rip Stalvey:

No, it is serious.

John Gunterman:

Only once have I ever had one grow out, and it was right about week 14. This guy was just being a total jerk, running around, just running after every other male to get done harassing one. Then he'd go run after the other one and go after the other one. And after watching this for three or four minutes, it's yeah, no, I'm just gonna grab the Marlon. And finish the issue right here.'cause there's just no room for that at all. Ever. And birds like that

Mandelyn Royal:

tend to have low fertility too because they're too worried about what everyone else is doing. Yeah. And not doing their job.

John Gunterman:

Yeah. And this was, luckily back when I was still dealing with the Buckeyes before I got into the Santa Claris and I'm really glad that I got a line that was bred for temperament specifically for quite a while, and I'm able to continue that.

Mandelyn Royal:

I've noticed a certain golden retriever sort of temperament coming through on a lot of those.

Rip Stalvey:

Yes. That's a good way to describe it. Golden retriever temperament. I like that. Let's go back and talk a little bit about understanding this whole growth equation that I. Stuck out there first thing where growth is equal to genetic potential plus nutrition plus management. Now there's not a thing in the world we can do to change genetics, but we can learn how to optimize the other two components, and that's nutrition and flock management. And this is where if we don't put. The proper effort into optimizing nutrition and management, we are gonna set our birds up to fail

John Gunterman:

or at least waste some money and time. In your husband's package. If you don't have at least three different feed formulas, you are either short changing your birds on one end or the other, or in the middle because they do have different nutritional requirements.

Rip Stalvey:

Oh, absolutely. Don't waste

John Gunterman:

your money on high protein feed when you and your, when your birds can't benefit from it, first off.

Rip Stalvey:

And

John Gunterman:

you can manage your growth better.

Rip Stalvey:

I've learned early on that breed matters, growth rate benchmarks are not one size fits all. And by that. No, I don't expect the same thing in body development from a flock of whitelegg and pulls as I would Egg production potential in a flock of Plymouth Rock pulls. You have to take in what the breed develops for and what's it capable of doing. Not what you want it to do, but what is it capable of doing.

Mandelyn Royal:

And also recognizing that it can vary a little bit bloodline to bloodline within the same breed.

Rip Stalvey:

Oh boy. Yeah. Or

Mandelyn Royal:

a hatchery type birds versus exhibition birds. The rate of lay is probably gonna be very different. The growth rate and development, it's gonna be very different from one genetic pole to another. So you're right on feed them to succeed to see what the genetics are capable of.

John Gunterman:

Right now we're looking at a lower fertility rate than I'd like to see at a surrogate flock of Santa Clara's that I have at the local college. So you know, I'm gonna be bringing my rooster over. They've had their, hes isolated for a little while. They're actually doing a fun experiment to see how long it takes for a flock of hands to dry out once you remove the rooster.

Mandelyn Royal:

That'll be a neat experiment. Three. We're answer this

John Gunterman:

question in real college, no BS research. I wonder if at least

Mandelyn Royal:

one of those pens will pop hot still after six weeks.

John Gunterman:

It's there. We can only afford five weeks because of the short grow out season up here in Vermont. We need to be har and the school calendar. They need to be harvesting during a very specific week of the semester. So we can't, we wanna set this up next year for a better experiment, but since we're looking at low fertility rates to begin with, I don't think it's a valid experiment to begin with. I'd like to get a better rooster in there and then do the experiment again. But if same thing, if you're setting a hundred eggs and you're only getting, 50 chicks hatch, you're wasting,

Mandelyn Royal:

that's nowhere near now.

John Gunterman:

You are and you're wasting space and resources and time, and you know what? Something's wrong here. Is it the rooster or is it the hens? If you know you've got a productive hen because she's had a good hatch rate in the past, then you know, look at Mr. Rooster and you're observing. Is he doing his job?

Rip Stalvey:

I tell you, flock observation and we've talked about it so many times. But I don't know of anything that we can learn more from than flock observation. They're telling you something. I have a

Mandelyn Royal:

pretty good example.

Rip Stalvey:

Lay it on us.

Mandelyn Royal:

So from my angle, I like to see a well filled in shrink bag, and that means that keel needs to be perfectly straight and beautiful. No dents, no divots, no curves, no bends, all about, end result presentation. So if you put your birds in a grow pen and you leave them out there and all you do is the food and the water and you're not handling'em, you're not monitoring anything, and then you go and start getting hands on at, point of lay maybe 20, 24, 30 weeks old, and you start finding keels that don't feel right, they're not straight. The first question is, when did they go crooked? When did you last check? What is the source of it? Was it nutritional? Was it developmental? Was it genetic?

Was it their roo bar? If you find it and it's

Mandelyn Royal:

a surprise and you don't know when, it becomes a much trickier question to answer, so you wanna be in there handling and monitoring to know when what happened. It'll answer a lot of your future questions.

Rip Stalvey:

It will answer questions you don't even know you're gonna have.

Mandelyn Royal:

Exactly. Even if you don't think it's important, put it in your notes.

Rip Stalvey:

If it happens, jot it down. If it happens and you see it, jot it down.

Mandelyn Royal:

Definitely.

John Gunterman:

Oh, my biggest regret. I don't need to write that down. I'll remember. Oh boy. Been there, done that.

Mandelyn Royal:

I still do that

John Gunterman:

now. Luckily I go so bad. Which one of my notebooks did I write that down in? Because I got four notebooks and they all look exactly four. I

Mandelyn Royal:

have about nine and three of'em are in the barn.

John Gunterman:

I, just the active ones. These are the the right in the rain notebooks'cause they're great and they can survive living in my back pocket.

Mandelyn Royal:

And sometimes I have a legal pad and I tear a page off. And then. Where did I put that page? Did I fold it up, put it in my pocket and run it through the wash?

Rip Stalvey:

I have been known to do that.

Mandelyn Royal:

Yeah. But now with the tech and ai, you can take notes and then you can take a picture of that note and then you can give that picture to AI and it can start analyzing and. Figuring out the notes and data that you're collecting

Rip Stalvey:

Exactly is

Mandelyn Royal:

crazy. The changes in tech now are making it so much easier.

Rip Stalvey:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mandelyn Royal:

If you jot down a handwritten note of your growth weights, you can just take a picture and have AI analyze your growth data after you've collected it daily or weekly, and start seeing some real neat correlations that you can start making decisions off of.

John Gunterman:

Yep. So we've talked about the body condition and frame development. And this is something that is going to be particularly of importance to these show breeders, but the feathering rate and the feather quality. Like I, I know when my birds are gonna be, they're hard feathers come in, and that's pretty much all that I care about other than the fact that they don't have any, feathers of an entirely wrong color. But I did choose a white breed, so it's pretty easy on me. Now. Rip you've

Mandelyn Royal:

well and learning women Bolt, you've put a lot of research into

John Gunterman:

this. Yeah.

Rip Stalvey:

I tell you, color breeding and evaluating color is part of the reason that I'm as bald as I am. Trust me, that's no joke with reds, it. It is not just the color red you have to worry about. You have to worry about black. How much black, is it just in the tail on males where it should be, or is it in their hackle or there saddle? If it's in the hackle or saddle, you got problems. Is there sheen coming up?

John Gunterman:

Where's this beetle green coming from?

Rip Stalvey:

Oh it's. Like I said, color reading is a bane of my existence.

Mandelyn Royal:

Why? I have white birds, they just have to be white.

Rip Stalvey:

But y'all just put the easy way out. That's what it was.

Mandelyn Royal:

It's not that easy. No, not really. Then you have to worry about what color is the bay? Do you ever see straw or there is there silver involved? White is so much more complicated than just white. But thank God they're not penciled.

Rip Stalvey:

I agree with you. White. People think it's the easiest. White and black they think are the two easiest colors to breed.

John Gunterman:

Those are actually the hardest. I think

Rip Stalvey:

they're, there's so many nuances and so many things that go into producing a good white or a good black bird. It's frightening. Frightening. It really is.

John Gunterman:

But I'm also looking at, is everybody feathering in pretty much at the same time?

Mandelyn Royal:

At the same time, at the same rate?

John Gunterman:

Same time, same way if I've got any stragglers or anybody ahead of the group, but I'm breeding for flock heterogeneity, so anybody that's ahead of the curve or behind the curve, you're out.

Rip Stalvey:

And I also like to pay attention to. When do they mt. Do they all mow at the same time or are they staggered? Dragging it out for months. Which is not what you want. So pay attention to molt too.

John Gunterman:

That's gonna be quite a ways down the road for me.'cause I don't like to have birds on my feed bill that long through the summer months now is something that I really need to start paying attention to.'cause the Chante, Claires were. Spread to be a cold, hardy breed. As climate shift happens and we're getting warmer and warmer summers I'm noticing my birds are not as happy as they used to be. They're hanging out in the shade and looking like they're melting more and more. They're not happy with the increased heat and humidity as they were bred for a colder environment. So when I'm looking at the vigor out in the yard. On those really, I don't wanna say hot,'cause it never gets hot. We get above 93 days a year, but if it's above 80 and there's one bird that seems to be a little bit more bright and chipper and hopping around while all the others are, hanging out in the shade kind of panting, that may be the one that I want to start. Looking to breed from,'cause it's, we're breeding in situ or as things happen and there's epigenetic development that happens as well. And the good breeder needs to start thinking about those things. Because it is a trifecta, it's genetics environment. And the feed and the environment is constantly changing. Every year it's different. You're in a drought this year. I'm, we got mushrooms growing everywhere this year. Yeah. So how does this year's grow out gonna be affected by this very wet season? We'll find out. Do they have do they have the genetic. Backgrounds or building blocks to go, for this epigenetic development to kick in and go, oh, I know what to do when the conditions are like this.

Alex:

Thanks for listening folks, This concludes part one of our Grow Out discussion, we'll share part two next week. If today's episode gave you information that will help you help your flock, share it with a friend that could benefit from it as well. Be sure to listen to our bonus content that is published on Thursdays and Friday's of each week. It's where we share information that we don't cover in our regular podcast episodes. Until next time Keep learning and improving and most of all keep enjoying the birds you love.

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John Gunterman

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Mandelyn Royal

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Rip Stalvey

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