Living Catholic with Father Don Wolf
Father Don Wolf, a priest of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, offers a Catholic perspective on the issues confronting each person today.
Living Catholic with Father Don Wolf
"Beyond the Veil of Reality" | February 23, 2025
This episode delves into the intriguing intersection of faith and the supernatural, exploring personal anecdotes and cultural narratives surrounding ghost encounters. Father Wolf discusses the essence of fear associated with ghosts, the scriptural acknowledgment of the supernatural, and the importance of prayer in addressing these haunting experiences.
• Personal stories about ghostly blessings
• Common experiences of haunting and fear
• The significance of ghost stories in human culture
• Biblical references to ghosts and the supernatural
• The role of prayer in healing and addressing spiritual distress
• Balancing skepticism with spirituality
• The hope for connection beyond death.
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Father Don Wolf is a priest of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City. Living Catholic also broadcasts on Oklahoma Catholic Radio several times per week, with new episodes airing every Sunday.
This is Living Catholic with Father Don Wolfe. This show deals with living the Catholic faith in our time, discovering God's presence in our lives and finding hope in His Word. And now your host, father Don Wolfe.
Speaker 2:Welcome Oklahoma to Living Catholic. I'm Father Don Wolfe, pastor of Sacred Heart Parish in Oklahoma City and rector of the Shrine of Blessed Stanley Rother. I wasn't always pastor of Sacred Heart in Oklahoma City. I was also pastor in Duncan for eight years, and when I was pastor in Duncan I was sought out by a number of people who had particular problems to address. Several times I was called by people who wanted me to come and bless their houses. Oftentimes they were reluctant to talk to me because they had called about ghosts. Each one had difficulties about things going on in their houses. When they went to their pastors they were told there was nothing that could be done. The pastors had no prayers or rituals or blessings in the sum of their religious services to take care of ghostly concerns. In several of the situations their pastors recommended they call the Catholic Church. At least there they'd find someone who knew what to do, and so they did. They called me. Most of the time they described the same events. In one signal case, a couple came to see me to describe that they'd owned their house for many years. They'd never had a problem there. They were getting older, however, and they were thinking of moving. That was enough.
Speaker 2:The moment they pushed the yard signs into the grass, strange things started happening in their house. It wasn't just a feeling they had. Weird things were going on, with items falling off the mantel place and the furniture being moved in slight ways. But the laundry was the biggest issue. They would put a load in the dryer, go to the grocery store, for example, and when they came back the clothes would be out of the dryer and strewn all over the laundry room. And that seemed to escalate week after week. Eventually they sought me out because they'd come home from church one day only to find all of the clothes in the laundry room thrown out of the back door and onto the lawn. Something had to change. Because they couldn't take this kind of interruption any longer. They approached their minister, who advised them to call me.
Speaker 2:I went over to the house, which seemed to be a decent, pleasant place. In fact it reflected them and their personalities. You know, sometimes when you go to a place in which strange things are happening, you feel a kind of heaviness, a sort of stuffy darkness there. But there was none of that. The environment seemed peaceful and, unlike some experiences others have described to me, they hadn't seen anything peculiar. All they were aware of was the scattered laundry. No figures in the night, no appearances in their bedrooms, no spooky voices or manifestations anywhere. It was just the clothes.
Speaker 2:I had no spiritual explanation for what was going on, nor could I offer any deep Catholic wisdom to their request. What was it specifically about the clothes? I have no idea, other than to offer to bless their house and to pray for healing and release and rest for whatever unquiet spirit there might be there, which is what I did. I heard nothing more from them. That could mean, of course, they had no more problems. It could also mean the problem lessened enough for them to be comfortable with the spook in the house and they didn't mind. That is a strategy opted for by a lot of people. Or they simply expedited the sale of their house, got out and never looked back. What is the case for certain is that their experience was real, their witness to it was genuine and their concern about it preoccupied them. I don't know what it was about the city of Duncan, but I had more requests for those types of blessings there than any other parish.
Speaker 2:Spiritual activities of all kind seemed to flourish in all manner of manifestations there. I had a young woman in my office, once a person in a senior position at one of the local businesses, educated and experienced, who detailed her involvement with Native American magic. She openly talked about her herself witnessing the doll-like figures used for ceremonies moving on their own autonomously. According to her, there were also numerous animals with human faces that she had seen, some of whom had pursued her, and all of this was according to the teachings that she had received about all these magical things. But she was no fanatic and she wasn't trying to be exotic or notable. Her descriptions were part of her spiritual journey, which she had every intent on deepening. It was an interesting afternoon listening to her, but these are simply a smattering of the cases that have come to me over the years. They are some of the most spectacular, although not the most amazing, that would be reserved for the house that had been reputed for generations to have been haunted and into which my cousin moved. After a few weeks there, her mother called me and asked what could be done for her. It seemed that her daughter, who had always considered the reports to have been exaggerated or just plain made up, was waking up at night to the sight of a vaporous figure of a man staring at her at the foot of her bed. She wanted him to go away. Eventually she did what everyone else in that house had done she moved away.
Speaker 2:These stories, they don't go away and they don't respond to wishful thinking. You know, ghost stories are present in every society and among all people everywhere. It is an artifact of human culture that we are afraid of ghosts. Our fears are encapsulated in the stories and the lore we have about them. Now, their universality doesn't mean ghost stories are stories about true events or real phenomena, only that their unnerving quality, the fact that we're anxious about them. That's what's real. After all, dragons are a near universal image that penetrates virtually every culture everywhere, flying snakes that breathe fire and cause disaster, but that also guard, treasure and threaten virtue. They're present in China, mesoamerica and the Middle East. Either this image is from deep inside the human consciousness and expresses itself as the product of the summation of human experience that goes back to the very beginnings of the dawn of conscious thought, or the stories are so old and they've been told wherever humans have moved to. But in all of this, nobody thinks dragons are real and no one has to come to me worried about tyrant lizards flying through their households, interrupting their tranquility. Ghosts aren't necessarily real just because so many people are afraid of them.
Speaker 2:But ghosts are a figure in the scriptures, especially, notably in the New Testament, although the appearance of Samuel's ghost, called up by the Witch of Endor, by King Saul, is the most memorable story about such things from the Book of Kings in the Old Testament. But there are several places in the Gospels where the question of ghosts is addressed. The first is when the disciples of Jesus caught sight of Jesus walking on the water during a storm. Seeing this figure in the middle of the night, they were afraid, it said. Especially, they were afraid they were seeing a ghost. Jesus eventually chides them by reminding them it was he and that it should be no surprise they could see him in such circumstances. He and that it should be no surprise they could see him in such circumstances. And then again, after the resurrection, when the disciples encountered the risen Christ for the first time, jesus again chides them about their belief in what they're seeing. He invites them to touch his body, because they are not seeing a ghost, but instead the resurrection body of their friend. Touch me and see, I am no ghost, jesus said.
Speaker 2:Now, neither of the examples prove that the ghosts are real. They only prove that the people of the New Testament believed that ghosts were real. That's incontrovertible. They did believe in the presence of ghosts. Not only that, they believed such occurrences were actual manifestations of something altogether unpleasant and dangerous Danger. That's what ghosts communicate to those who encounter them.
Speaker 2:With nature interrupted and the norms for regular life strained, then almost anything could happen. And if anything can happen, we're all in danger. We for whom the world is a dangerous and trying place. We can just barely carve out a space to live and prosper when we know the normal functions and the regular cycles of life. If the boundaries of these expectations are let down, then just about anything could happen. When the dead aren't really dead and gone, when the power to continue living exceeds the bonds of breathing and moving, when there's a doorway opened we're ill-equipped to walk through. This anxiety seems to slip into everything about every ghost story that we know of.
Speaker 2:If we think about it, the presence of those who have died and are still among us in some manner isn't necessarily bad news. To be surrounded by the ghostly presence of, say, my mother and father would be not a net negative. Probably for me, they were charitable and supportive in life. Receiving the same charity and support from them, even past the boundaries of death, would be a blessing. Even if they were no more than a sort of comforting presence amid loneliness and fear, if they were no more than dependable cheerleaders, they would be a positive presence in my life. Certainly it would have been good to know that they were there for me. I mean really there.
Speaker 2:Think of the sub-stories about the parents of Harry Potter in the Harry Potter books. In the movie, his parents appear to him to support him and to urge him to do the right thing. They comfort him and assure him of his decisions. More than that, they give him courage to confront the powers arrayed against him, even though it was that very power that brought about their death. Combine this supportive notion of an intimate ghostly presence with the humorous ghosts that flip through Hogwarts and you have a curious and congenial set of ghost stories that almost everyone would actually prefer, rather than the icky, awful stories we most often hear. In fact, the first experience of the ghosts by the students there is usually one of fear and offense, which is all replaced by tolerance and then appreciation, and then finally sadness. Eventually, the ghosts there become part of the family. But ghosts are most often the source of fear and trepidation. To encounter them is to encounter the fear of death and diminishment, which is terrifying enough, but it's also to encounter something more.
Speaker 2:The dead belong to a realm removed from the boundaries of life. If they cross from there to here, the power of death has even more purchase here than we'd like. It might be the case that we'd welcome their presence, something like the ghost in Mrs Muir. It might be the case that we'd welcome their presence, something like the ghost in Mrs Muir. But the truth is we want the disruption of death and the penetrating sadness of its absence to remain far away from us. Having the dead occupy our living space is not for us. They need not come to occupy our living space, which is already too cramped and too short. The dead should remain in their place, and when they don't, we're all made less by it.
Speaker 2:Ghost stories are all very controversial in our time. The presence of the incorporeal interferes with our notion of a material universe unaffected by the metaphysical expressions of life, especially something as shocking and universal as ghosts life, especially something as shocking and universal as ghosts. As loyal children of a scientific age. We resist any credence in such things, more or less, that is, we're skeptical of the implications of what the presence of ghosts actually tell us. Those who define the meaning of life are those who insist that there is nothing in the world except the material and the physical. Looking through their telescopes and measuring their oscilloscopes, they assure us there is nothing but time, energy and the void.
Speaker 2:All talk about ghosts is the same as all talk about fairies and leprechauns, and goblins and duendes Just fanciful wish fulfillment or expressions of deep-seated anxiety. There's no there there when it comes to such things, they say. Of course, in the material universe that these experts propose, there are also no such realities as love, truth, beauty, goodness or dignity, since these are also not things to measure and touch. Even though these experts talk all the time about the material universe and its implications, including the fact that survival beyond death is impossible, they seldom mention the impossibility of anyone living their lives with no notion of the power of love or the existence of truth. You know those metaphysical notions. In fact, we're pretty comfortable going through our day by balancing our trust in all of the things about the material world we know with all these other things. And if ghosts happen to fit into those other things, then for the most part we imagine so be it.
Speaker 2:The average person, it seems, finds himself in the in-between. We believe the scientists, sort of, and we believe in the possibilities of ghosts, sort of. We certainly believe in love, joy and truth. We can risk believing there might be more to life than our yardsticks can measure. I guess I'm one of the in-between ones. I have no enthusiasm to chase down ghost stories as if they were today's news, and most of the time I have a great deal of skepticism about what people tell me concerning what they see and feel when it comes to those matters. I do believe there is a realm of life transcended to this one, of course, but I'm not a full-on enthusiast when it comes to ghosts and spirits and the like. I'm not haunted by hauntings, so I neither seek them out nor do I poo-poo them. I'm a realist in these matters.
Speaker 2:The prayers we use for blessing presume a realm in which the power of the spiritual is real and meaningful. So when we bless a house or ask for the protection of an individual, we're certain that the invocation of a spiritual presence or a spiritual power produces a result. We're not there just to calm people's fears by some sort of anodyne assurances. We don't say there are no such things as demons or curses or danger or spiritual beings, so therefore all will be well since they don't exist. Instead, since they do exist, our prayers invoke God's protection in every realm and for every circumstance. The oldest prayers are some of the most telling and some of the most powerful, since they were formulated amidst the sharpest awareness of such events and are influenced by the intense experience of the people of those times. This is why there are those who seek us out for blessing and protection, because our prayers are formulated in the light of the experience of the metaphysical.
Speaker 2:It's a conundrum that a great deal of the common communal religious understanding of our time excludes any talk of ghosts or demons or the devil. Most of this would be the talk of high church Protestantism where, when serious and respectable religious people begin talking about solemn religious concerns, they're not going to step beyond the boundaries of modern scientific concerns about the material world. No notable clergyman famous for going on TV and explaining the situation of modern religious thought is going to start talking about demons or ghosts While most of the people in the audience might in fact believe in what he's saying. These things aren't going to be mentioned. We all know the framework of contemporary life just doesn't include such mentions, which have left those persons in these churches bereft of any response to the intrusion of the metaphysical upon their everyday lives. Calling the local priest is the only strategy left to them. Well, that's not exactly true. There are other outlets.
Speaker 2:It has become popular to include all kinds of extraneous worship into the aisles and naves of churches, all in the name of expanding the understanding of other cultures. This seems to be most prevalent in those very churches in which any mention of the details of the transcendental is the most lacking. The same places that have no prayers to bless houses or cars, imploring God's protection of them against the forces of evil and the presence of the Maleficent, will casually invite people in to invoke spirits other than that of the presence of the one God. It's a curious aspect of our time. About 40 years ago, a young couple I met in Mexico while studying Spanish there invited me to their art gallery in Denver, to an exhibition of art that they had put together from Columbia. So I went to see what they'd done and to be a part of their celebration and during our time there, when evening was fading, they decided they were going to top off the time there by doing a little service. They were going to burn two small tabs made of incense they had picked up during their travels. These tabs were, in fact, small images of two indigenous Colombian gods. The promise was that by invoking the spirit of this divinity as those figures were burned, the gallery and the efforts of this couple would be blessed.
Speaker 2:So they asked me to light the fire under the idols and I refused. They couldn't believe that I was so uncooperative and negative about their efforts. Just go ahead and light us. It's just a symbol of our desire to keep the heart of Colombian art alive, they said. At the moment. It reminded me of the early Christians who were invited to offer incense to the emperor, even when those who invited them to do it didn't believe in the emperor's divinity or in the meaning of the burning of incense. Just go ahead and do it. That was their advice to those early Christians as well. So I explained to this couple that I wasn't going to do it. I said if it's just a gesture, then it has no meaning of itself. So it won't matter if I do it or not. And if it's real and it does invoke the protection of this spirit, then it's a spirit I reject. They were nonplussed. Being the modern, certain unburdened couple that they were, it seemed inconceivable to them that I might have an objection.
Speaker 2:Now there are a couple of factors about ghosts that I've gleaned from some experts who've experienced with them far beyond what I have. I trust them because of their experience and because they've done the least to make a big deal out of what they know and see. They're not in it for the notoriety or for its uniqueness, and they talk about what they know. The first is that ghosts want to communicate, that is, there is a desire on the part of this spiritual entity to make contact with or to explain some aspect of their lives or their deaths. All we associate with haunting is, at bottom, a desire for notice, and certainly if, for example, laundry is spread out across the lawn, we take notice.
Speaker 2:If we want to quell the presence of these entities, then taking notice is the first part. Certainly, we're not able to progress in our encounter with them until we acknowledge their desire in some measure to communicate with us and this is the key point If they are part of the in-between chasm between this world and the next. They do need our help to move on in some measure. Figuring out what this could be is a way to help them. I confess I don't know if help is always what they're looking for, but it does stand to reason that if they're looking to communicate, they're looking for a reason. Does stand to reason that if they're looking to communicate, they're looking for a reason. Perhaps we can help. Also, there is a measure of unfinished business in their lives, business that it's possible for us to attend to.
Speaker 2:The speaker at the priest's convocation last year reminded us that our prayers for those who have died, especially if we have become aware of some unmet need, some unfilled aspect of the life of the one whose soul is unnaturally present, those prayers are helpful. He was full of delightful stories of events he'd witnessed, including a scene in an old convent in which a sister had died unreconciled with another sister, and that sister seemed to be haunting the entire place. Reconciled with another sister, and that sister seemed to be haunting the entire place Praying for her reconciliation, relieved the convent of her presence. And finally there is the haunting truth of unrecognized anguish that seems to attend some ghostly presences.
Speaker 2:The late Cardinal Hickey of Washington DC had an experience he wrote about when he was visiting the former concentration camp at Auschwitz. He was a part of a private tour group and they were in one of the former barracks there. The group went on while the cardinal stayed behind to pray for a moment and we got up from his place and walked to the door the other group had gone into. He opened the door. There was a large group of people there, all dressed in the striped uniforms of prisoners. He thought he'd run into a group of actors who were somehow reenacting a scene from the war. They were that real, that present to him, and as he drew a little closer they noticed him and began to talk to him. At least they looked as if they were speaking. He couldn't hear them. They were more and more frustrated that he didn't respond, didn't know what they were saying, and slowly they moved away from him and then faded away. It was a scene, a vision of ghosts. He spoke about it movingly. In fact. He canceled the rest of his trip and flew to Rome to speak to John Paul about it. The Pope assured him that this had happened before and it was his responsibility to pray for them. Well, to pray for all of us. And remember, the Pope's hometown was 10 miles away from the front gates of the Auschwitz concentration camp. Ghosts seem to be all around us. Maybe we should pray for all of those who have died. Eternal rest actually means something, something we can contribute to Back in just a moment. Welcome back to our final segment, faith in Verse.
Speaker 2:We have a poem today called Ordered. When did we imagine the spinning world was ordered? Perhaps the maps? They presented every place as bordered and invited us to think of all things divided and sorted, every circle halved and every rectangle quartered.
Speaker 2:But the great gush of life is more chaos and vim, noise and fracture. Here good order more drowns than swims, as the unexpected rules. So the unanticipated can come in, energies surge and boundaries break beyond the limb. Yet we hunger to see the great order underneath that, the expectations there will to us, the hidden bequeath in the commonalities of that so easily duplicate and repeat, even if pure structures and stern patters go on to defeat. Because we were created at first in a garden paradise, the straight rows and flowering stems we so seek to reprise so often, we are, in every generation, newly surprised at the ways our fallen states and limits and limited thoughts arise. It makes you wonder, yes, even in this jaded day and time, why we choose to fuss so often, why we choose to whine at what escapes the grasp of the yours and the mine. We surrender our noble selves to whimper in our rhymes. That's order. I hope you can join us in weeks to come as we continue Living Catholic.
Speaker 1:I hope you can join us in the weeks to come as we continue Living Catholic. Living Catholic is a production of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City for Oklahoma Catholic Radio. To learn more, visit okcrorg.